There is a psychological phenomenon known as the "diffusion of responsibility" which means that the more people around, the less likely you are to get help. A famous example of this is Kitty Genovese. I think it's important to take the initiative. Don't assume somebody else is already going to help. I've never been in that situation, but I've always thought that if I were, I would call the police, then knock on the door (or approach the couple) and inform them that I have called the police, I would also have pepper spray at the ready, etc, in case the asshole decided to attack me too.

That's a really tough issue. Knowing when to intervene can be so tricky. It's one thing intervening in a public street brawl, but what do you do when there aren't many people around and there may be a chance you are putting yourself in danger? Or if the place is crowded and there are people standing watching?

I passed a full-on fight between a male and female teenager one day in broad daylight not too long ago on a street in Dublin. There was actually a crowd gathered just watching like it was some kind of boxing match and I couldn't believe it. I knew there were gardaí (police officers) around the corner as I had just passed them and ran back around a told them. And they went off in the direction of the fight - but I have no idea what happened next. I felt guilty for not immediately intervening. However, the reason I didn't intervene was because I knew of someone (a few years ago now) who had witnessed a man viciously beating up his female partner on the street and he went and intervened on her behalf - he ended up being told to f*ck off - by her. And then stabbed - by her.

My immediate feeling is to intervene in stuff like this but it is such a dodgy area, it really is hard to know what to do.

PS. I'm not making any comment with regard to the fact the guy I knew of got stabbed by the woman. It could just have easily been the man had there been a few different moves pulled or whatever, I was just making the point about safety for yourself in interventions etc...

I have story about a time when I didn't intervene.
When I was in grad school in Louisiana, I lived alone. At least twice a week I would hear the couple next door fighting. There was lots of yelling, and sometimes the sounds of something large hitting the wall. I often thought about calling the police, but never made that call. I justified my inaction by telling myself that if the man ever found out I was the tipster, he might come after me. I was afraid, and I am ashamed that I never tried to help the woman next door. In the two years that I lived there, we never spoke. I don't know what became of her, but I pray that she came across someone braver than I.

It does remind me of this horrible story from this week: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-woman-stabbed,0,5277809.story

I don't have a story, but I can't help but think about what they taught us growing up in health class and sex education: If you're being attacked in public, you aren't suppossed to cry "Rape" because it's proven that in all likely hood no one will attempt to help you. You are instead to cry, "Fire" because apparently that's something more people are likely to respond to.

That has always boggled my mind a little...

I'll get involved every time. I also have the privilege, in this situation, of being a stocky 5'll. Not many guys want to get into a fight with a woman their own size. (I also have a loud mouth and some martial arts training.)

I don't think I could not call the police in the example the woman studies used about her sister. Let's say I heard it, didn't call and he killed her, I'd feel guilty the rest of my life. If I knew he'd beat her worse when the police left, I would TELL them that when I called and they could take that into account when they intervened. If he continued beating her after they left, I would call the police AGAIN. I'll grant I have an uncommon trust in cops because my dad's a cop, I grew up with them. But really, what better things do they have to do than prevent a woman from possibly being beaten to death?

The responsibility to act goes beyond trusting a woman to judge her situation. Saying she should blames the victim into being in some sort of control and able to judge it accurately. Logically, that assumes women who have been killed or disabled by their partners didn't do a good enough job. I can't abide that, and I won't be complicit in someone's destructive behaviors.

I don't have a story, but I can't help but think about what they taught us growing up in health class and sex education: If you're being attacked in public, you aren't suppossed to cry "Rape" because it's proven that in all likely hood no one will attempt to help you. You are instead to cry, "Fire" because apparently that's something more people are likely to respond to.

That has always boggled my mind a little...

my neighbor upstairs is a single mother with an abusive ex. the man also happens to be the father of her son. he beat her so bad she screamed one night, and the uncertainty of what to do is killer sometimes. at that point, i knew nothing more of her than the sounds i heard through the ceiling.

i picked up the phone to call the cops, and realized i didn't know her apartment number. i tossed my husband the phone and pulled on my shoes to go find out.

he had left already. she stumbled out as i approached the door, and i ended up staying the night to help her feel safer. my husband and i chased him off later that night when he returned.

the cops were fucking useless. and the landlords sent her a letter threatening to throw her out if she screams again. "disturbing the peace." people suck.

Instead of calling police on neighbors, maybe people should call a battered woman's help line. They might have some good advice on how to help the victim without calling the police. It won't help that night when you hear the battering, but you will have strategies to use when you run into her (or him) in the hall or on the street. Some victims aren't ready to hear that they need help, and might even send the police away.

@Roni:

Women stay in abusive relationships for a large number of complex reasons. What you judge as one person's destructive behavior (ie, not calling police) might actually be their lifesaving strategy. You can't tell because you are not her.

When I was living in France, I happened upon men in the act of beating their partners (presumably) a few times over a short period. Once, it was going on right in front of a police station. My friend and I ducked inside and told the officer at the front desk, who said they'd file a report. When we protested that he should go outside and handle it, that his very presence and gaze on the scene would more than likely stop the violence, the officer firmly responded that he would file a report. It was absolutely infuriating. Another time, one of my friends approached a man who was holding a woman by the arm and repeatedly slapping her. The man turned on my friend, pushed him, and threatened to bring all of his friends from the army to kick my friend's ass. Really charming situation.

It seems to me that, when I've witnessed an intervention in that kind of public violence, the woman involved usually says everything is fine and she doesn't need help. And seems embarassed. And I wonder if they're ashamed to be in need of help, or ashamed that people know what's really going on in their lives.

I've never come across that sort of thing when I was alone or in a deserted street, nor have I heard anything from my neighbours. And while I like to think I'd be ready to act if I did, I know that I would worry about my personal safety, and that I wouldn't necessarily trust the police not to inflame the situation or blame the victim.

I once saw my cousin's husband throw her against a wall for coming home late. There were a few reasons not to do anything about it--he was bigger than us, his friends were there, I was drunk, there were drugs in the house so if the police came we'd all get in trouble, she didn't want to leave (in fact, she thought I was making a mountain out of a molehill). I called her mother the next day, who told me that it wasn't my business. I told my own mother, which started a gossip chain that eventually embarrassed my cousin into separating from him. He went to anger counseling, they got back together, and she doesn't talk to me anymore. I'm sure there were a thousand things I could have done differently, but I was 22 years old and scared. I hope he doesn't hurt her anymore, but it is ten years later, and I just don't know.

SexySmallTownFemme posted this link in a related Community posting:

http://neighboursfriendsandfamilies.ca/eng/helpingabusedwomenwaystosupporther.php

As a former shelter advocate, I tend to fall on the "call the cops" side. If you hear or see something that makes you believe someone is in danger, the police can respond quickly and (most of the time) effectively. I recall the story of one woman murdered by her boyfriend in the area where I lived at the time - on the night she was murdered, she was dragged screaming through the hallways of her apartment building and no one called the cops. It breaks my heart to think about it.

Also, calling the police is a way to intervene while protecting your own safety and anonymity, which is a legitimate concern.

A few posters have expressed concerns and frustrations about involving law enforcement, and I can totally understand. Sadly, even in the 21st century, laws regarding domestic violence and the training of officers on how to respond appropriately varies widely. When I was working as an advocate, I was lucky to be with an organization that had developed a strong relationship with local law enforcement to ensure appropriate responses and in a state with very solid DV laws (Minnesota). If you have concerns about calling the police, start asking questions of your local law enforcement agency and domestic violence organizations NOW. What are the laws in your state? How do police typically respond to a domestic call? Have they been trained in how to identify aggressive vs. defensive injuries? Do they have a relationship with their local shelter, and do they refer people to it? Getting the answers to these questions (and any more you can think of) help ensure the safety of victims when the police are called and beyond.

@ FrumiousB:

I'm not sure if you're responding to the right person. I never said a thing about why women are in abusive relationships, and I don't appreciate what I'm reading as your chastising tone.

That I don't know what the woman being beaten needs is EXACTLY my point. In most cases, at the time, it's impossible to ask the neighbor in question if she's in need of help. Even if you did knock on the door to ask, there's no way to tell if she genuinely doesn't want you to call the police or does and is afraid to say it in front of her attacker. Thus I would call the police because I don't believe I have the ability to judge whether or not she actually needs help.

yeah, frumiousb, i think you vastly misinterpreted roni's point... read it again, i think you'll agree.

and, roni, keep up the training (the language you used makes it sound like you've fallen off a bit)... stop dv today and start the rev tomorrow.

My sister went through a physically abusive relationship, and now it is happening to her daughter. My niece fled the home and is in a hotel waiting to be placed in a homeless shelter. I call or email her everyday or every other day (we live far away from each other). She's reporting that the romanctic movies she's watching in the hotel are making her feel weak. This reminded me of hearing the remake of "Listen to your heart" and thinking that there's probably a battered woman out there hearing this song somewhere and feeling like she should get back together with the slimeball. Romantic ideals don't apply after someone has abused you.

I hate seeing people I love become victims.

A few years ago I noticed a couple in a car in the car park next to my apartment complex. They were arguing fiercely, and a couple of times I saw him pull his fist back as if he was about to hit her. Without having seen him actually do it it was a bit hard to know what to do. There was no way I was going to watch a women get beaten up without doing something, but what to do when it wasn't quite there yet? Just ignore it, keep on walking and hope it didn't get any worse? I certainly couldn't intervene at that point. I eventually decided to stand nearby and make it clear that I was glancing over there every so often, on the basis that if she felt in danger she could ask for help and that a witness might discourage the guy from doing anything violent. They eventually drove elsewhere to sort their stuff out without some nosy guy watching them. I later discovered that they parked out on the street in front of the complex in a fairly public spot, so at least it wasn't a case of finding a secluded spot to beat her up.

A week ago, my partner and I took our kindergartner to the mall to do some school shopping. We sat in the parking lot while waiting for the kiddo to finish his after daycare snack. A man sitting in the car in front of ours started screaming abuse (fuck you, etc) at his female partner in front of her (their?) three kids--two girls and a boy, all grade school aged. We were shocked, but didn't really know what to do.

I was married to an abusive man for four years a couple of years ago. Seeing someone yelled at like that perked my PTSD right up. I was on the verge of breaking down, but I really, really wanted to talk to the woman.

We were parked at the back entrance to a particular store, so I thought I might have a chance. I found an old domestic violence advocate hotline business card in my purse and put it in my pocket. We went in and started shopping. I could not concentrate on finding clothing for my child, because I was trying to spot the woman. Eventually I saw her, but she was with her partner. I was too nervous to approach her. I wanted to just hand her the card and say, "I don't know if you need this, but I wanted to give it to you in case." I didn't, though.

We finished up shopping and went back to the car. By that time, her partner was back in their car, sitting in the passenger side, glowering, drinking a Budwieser tallboy. I asked my partner if I should go in and try to talk to the woman.

He is a pretty passive person, and his opinion was that we didn't know how she would react to me approaching her, etc. I also second guessed myself, wondering if I was overreacting due to my personal experiences.

We drove to a different store and I kept a look out for mall security (the police do not respond to the mall parking lot as it's private property) to let them know there was a man drinking beer in their parking lot. I didn't see any and didn't go out of my way to find one.

I continue to feel guilty for this, but I really wasn't sure what to do. I'm still not sure. He didn't hit her, certainly, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did at home. His yelling, pouting in the car and substance abuse were very familiar to me.

I thought briefly that it might be nice to make up some anti-domestic violence flyers to keep in the car for situations like this. I could put one on the offending person's car, as well as the cars around, so it would provide information in a "coincidental" way. I don't know if that would help at all but I'm grasping at straws.

Thanks for about this topic. I've really wanted to address this experience but my lurker-nature has made it hard to write my own post.

I was in a situation like that a couple of years ago, and posted about it on my blog over at AllGirlArmy.org:
http://www.allgirlarmy.org/blog/joey/2006/08/but_its_her_fault

I would also be hesitant to call the police. If the victim is an illegal immigrant, she could face deportation. The feeling that the police will protect you is a fairly priviledged stance that is simply not the reality for some people, especially those with any past criminal record and many minorities.

i've struggled with this too. thankfully, i'm usually in the company of badass women who have more training at handling these situations than i do. as a man, i'm always willing to back someone up, but i often worry that my involvement escalates the situation b/c it then becomes a challenge to the (assuming male) attacker's masculinity. i'm gonna be calling my local domestic violence org soon to get some more advice, but if others have thoughts, i'm all ears.

When I was a child, about 25 years ago, a third grade teacher had an adult come to our class to talk about abductions and how to prevent them. Nightmares for the rest of my life aside, the one piece of advice I always thought was useful from that talk -- when an adult grabs you, always yell "help, someone call the police, this is not my [mother/father/guardian/sibling, etc.]".

I think calling a hotline and asking for advice is probably the best idea. Does anyone have a national number handy that I can put in my cell phone?

I do very basic volunteer crisis intervention for a sexual assault/domestic abuse hotline and if I overheard an assault in my apartment complex... it's hard to know what to do.

In public and alone, I'd yell. Maybe not necessarily "I'm calling the cops" because I'm small and light myself. An increasingly loud "HEY!" can sometimes get the point across.

In my building, I would probably still call the police; if next time the woman decides to file a restraining order, a long list of incident reports is sometimes helpful. I'd definitely wait until the abuser wasn't home and call up my neighbor to leave my phone number "if [she] ever needs anything, day or night". Or drop by to say hello and leave the same message in person. Post fliers near the communal apartment mailboxes about RAINN, DV shelters. Anything that offers the victim an opportunity to exercise her own agency rather than try to force her to admit she's being abused.

But if I knew kids were living in the apartment, I'd have to call the police every time. Partner abuse doesn't always mean child abuse, but sadly I know that even witnessing the abuse of their children isn't always enough to break an abuser's grip on a victim. In a lot of states it is illegal for a woman to lose custody of her children solely because of the unsafe environment that goes hand in hand with an abusive relationship.

Long time reader, had to comment.

My aunt’s favorite story is about the time she and her then boyfriend (now my uncle) got beat up one night out in the parking lot of a club. My aunt- one of the only women I would never want to get in a physical fight with, because she would fight dirty (you think about these things in my family)- and my uncle saw a man beating up on his pregnant girlfriend. So my family being who they are, which is feminist-good ole’ southern boys (I LOVE IT!) decided to go and beat the shit out of this guy. You don’t beat up a woman and you don’t beat up a pregnant woman. Well they go over to stop the fight and start up another when the man starts beating up my uncle and the lady starts beating up my aunt (along with all of her friends that were there). As my aunt says, “We laughed our beaten asses all the way home.” You stop a fight if a man is hitting on a girl. If you get beaten the physical pain is only momentary, while the emotional anguish is more scarring.

Ps. I say feminist-southern boys because my dad has never pushed me towards any career. The only thing he has ever said about what I do with my future (professional wise) is that I “needed to get a job where you wouldn’t have to depend on a man to support you, cause women have it hard out there.” I fucking love my dad.

Long time reader, had to comment.

My aunt’s favorite story is about the time she and her then boyfriend (now my uncle) got beat up one night out in the parking lot of a club. My aunt- one of the only women I would never want to get in a physical fight with, because she would fight dirty (you think about these things in my family)- and my uncle saw a man beating up on his pregnant girlfriend. So my family being who they are, which is feminist-good ole’ southern boys (I LOVE IT!) decided to go and beat the shit out of this guy. You don’t beat up a woman and you don’t beat up a pregnant woman. Well they go over to stop the fight and start up another when the man starts beating up my uncle and the lady starts beating up my aunt (along with all of her friends that were there). As my aunt says, “We laughed our beaten asses all the way home.” You stop a fight if a man is hitting on a girl. If you get beaten the physical pain is only momentary, while the emotional anguish is more scarring.

Ps. I say feminist-southern boys because my dad has never pushed me towards any career. The only thing he has ever said about what I do with my future (professional wise) is that I “needed to get a job where you wouldn’t have to depend on a man to support you, cause women have it hard out there.” I fucking love my dad.

I have a similar story. While walking to work, I came across a man beating a woman on the street. She was down on her knees, begging, as he hit her around the face and shoulders. I pulled out my phone and yelled, "I'm calling 911!!" at them, at which point the woman got up and started threatening me. Then the man, who was very large, much bigger than I, also came after me, saying that he was going to hurt me (I can't really remember what he said.) The woman was spitting with anger at that point at my audacity for interrupting. So I just ran for it. I didn't want to get involved in their fucked-up relationship.I figured the woman would deny anything happened, and I would possibly get hurt. I wish there had been more I could do.

@ bruinmccon:

i think it's GREAT that you are looking for hotline numbers to be able to share.

There are three national hotlines that are really useful:

RAINN (Rape Abuse & Incest National Network):
1-800-656-HOPE (4673). RAINN also has an Online Hotline that you can get to by going to www.rainn.org

National Domestic Violence Hotline:
1-800-799-SAFE(7233) or 1-800-787-3224 (TTY)

National Child Abuse Hotline:
1-800-4-A-CHILD (422-4453)

I think jj had a good point about being able to call the police and think they'll protect you is a privilege.

However in the hypothetical situation of what would *I* do, I'm not sure if it matters. The chances of my neighbor being an illegal immigrant in danger of deportation are relatively small compared to being a woman in danger of being severely injured. Problems involving the hypothetical neighbors' race and personal history involve many factors. If I lack information, particularly if I don't know I lack it, it comes down to personal choice. I would rather try to do the right thing and risk doing the wrong thing, then do nothing. I recognize my privilege, particularly as the daughter of a cop, and try to share it by doing my best to make sure things are taken seriously and handled in a helpful manner.

Keep in mind as a comment thread we're all giving blanket answers to a highly variable situation. You can always come up with exceptions, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate the general answer.

CALL THE POLICE.

Sure, law enforcement doesn't always come through. But abusers regularly isolate their victims and I think it's important to establish some sort of outside contact. I'm thinking primarily of abuse in a home or apartment. While law enforcement is not perfect, there is a chance that at the very least the victim will be offered information on resources to help. I think all states in the US are required to press charges even if the victim opts not to. And even if she refuses to testify and charges are dropped, calls to the police establish a history of domestic violence reports. In the event that a woman wants to leave her abuser, there is a record of abuse if she wants to press new charges, get custody of her children, or get a restraining order. I've called the cops three separate times for different neighborhood (all three in different neighborhoods) domestic situations. I couldn't see any of the altercations, in each I could just hear a man screaming angrily at a woman. Maybe nothing serious was going on, but I always feel its better safe than sorry in these situations. I must have had great neighbors each place I lived because every time the dispatcher informed me that several people had already called. Each time the police showed up very quickly. The argument that a woman will get beat worse after the police come seems to be a poor one to me. An abuser's beatings will likely escalate over time whether the police come or not. They will find a reason. The abuse is always worse when the abuser is in danger of losing his control.

Whether or not to intervene personally is largely a matter of how safe you feel in the situation. In college I had a house in an area that was heavy traffic for people coming and going to the bars. I intervened on a drunken row when the guy physically restrained his girlfriend in order to yell at her (she had tried to walk away from him). I felt comfortable because they were just a drunk college kids and I was in an area with plenty of people walking by.

I think what would help us all would be hearing from people who are or were in abusive relationships about any time someone intervened while they were being threatened or abused, and whether they appreciated it or not. Because while it does seem like a typical initial response to intervention is anger and defensiveness on the part of the person being abused, we can't know whether it ended up helping them see things differently or not.

@Lisa,

I don't think we can so easily discount the risk of the abuser becoming more violent if someone calls the police. It's a very real reality we must recognize. Not only that, but because intimate partner violence is about power and control, victims often feel helpless and feel as if they've lost that power and control. In some cases, by calling the police, we can make survivor feel as if s/he has even LESS agency than before because we have made the decision of contacting law enforcement for her. Not to mention, there may be very good reason

And as Roni said, of course our own decisions about intervening should be based on the specific situation at hand. I don't believe we should never contact the police if we believe a person's safety is danger, rather I'm saying it's imperative we consider the consequences as they may affect the victim's safety and feelings of power and control.

I witnessed something like this just a couple of weeks ago! It was so scary!

There were some teenagers (maaybe early twenties) at the end of a BART platform kind of struggling, and at first I thought it was a flirtatious kind of wrestle, until I realized she was crying and shouting, "I don't want to go with you!"

I had to get closer to actually notice this, because the platform was so loud.

So I went up to them and asked her, "are you okay?" And she said, "No, I don't want to go with him." I said to him, "You need to let her go," and so of course he started yelling at me and calling me names and posturing like he might hit me, all the while holding onto her.

I called to another woman on the platform to go get the station agent, but then the trains pulled in on either side of the platform, and everyone on the platform decided to get on a train.

I followed the abductor onto the train - he was still holding onto the girl, who was still screaming and crying. He saw me follow and pulled her off the train, and which point she broke free and started running, but he caught up with he and grabbed her again as my train pulled away.

Can I just tell you how horrible I felt? I felt guilty for letting them out of my sight - because what if this was her last chance to be helped before he did something even more horrible to her? But on the other hand, what else was there to do in that moment? Follow them indefinitely? Get into a physical fight with this guy who was clearly physically stronger than I was?

I intercommed the driver and told her what I'd seen - I wish I'd had the presence of mind to get a good description of the two of them or even ask the girl her name. But as it was, I had been scared, and didn't have much to tell the driver. I couldn't even give much detail about what the girl had been wearing.

But the lucky thing is that the BART police were able to find them, and they arrested the abductor. He had been violating a restraining order.

I helped someone once. I was at a friend's house just chillin outside on the deck, where her ex came over. He was carrying their child, was really pissed, and soon started getting violent towards them.

At first I was just shocked into inaction, but then my partner yelled my name and then I immediately ran towards them and put him in a sleeper hold, while my friend gabbed the kid and ran inside. Another friend called the police. I let him go, and he chilled out. Later that day he thanked me for restraining him.

I'm a very skinny 5'9" guy, I was hoping he would try to fight with me, cause I love to fight. I actually fantasize about fighting people who are abusing women.

I agree its tricky calling the police...but all things considered if you think someone is really at risk...

I agree that the situation is never easy. My senior year of college my b/f lived in a house that was converted into four apartments. At the time it was us in one of the bottom apartments and a couple on the top. One night we heard screaming and yelling and thumps and what sounded like someone being dragged across the floor. We thought about calling the police but we were afraid of the guy as well. It would have obviously been us and the apartments weren't that secure. Fortunately the guy got picked up later on violating probation and we never saw him again.

I also worked in a domestic violence shelter and whenever an arrest for domestic violence occurred the local jail would call us and give us the pertinent information and the victim's number so we could call and attempt to make contact. I will say that in the year that I worked there very few of the women came into the shelter from the arrest numbers. Most of our intakes occurred after an even where the man had left after an incident or the woman had managed to escape.