You make too much implied meaning out of a single phrase.

"we should find out where there are beauty-disadvantaged women and ask them to proceed to Mount Isa."

It doesn't say "women who don't look like the ones in magazines" or "societally approved beauties".

The standards of attractiveness vary from period to period and from location to location.

The women in french magazines look completely different to ones in india, to ones in the usa, to ones in australia.

Personally, I find *all* of them superficial, and I keep educating men about it. Because honestly, men have been severely brainwashed by the media (of their own period and location) to only be attracted to a certain type of woman.

I say, learn to listen to your gut. When you meet a woman, see what your gut says if you like her or not.

Men actually have genuine phobia to even court women that don't fit the current "media type". They fear being ridiculed, made fun of etc...

Its actually funny how people miss this stuff. That "beaty" is subjective and individual (not determined by hollywood!!). Have they never seen the beaties of the 60s? The main hollywood starlets of the 60s would not even get a small part today and vice-versa.

In the 19th century, "skinny" women were frowned upon and considered "fugly" and the more weight a woman had, the more beatiful she was considered. That's just one example, but you get the point.

Its entirely determined by who know who in society and then propagated downwards.

I actually know men who will be head over heels into a woman, but not take it further due to fear of ridicule because she did not fit a standard their buddies improve.

Btw, i hate the word standards. Because it implies an objective, positive criteria... when in fact its completely arbitrary.

Back to the story: We don't actually know what their own specific "standards of beaty" are, so "magazine types" is an assumption.

The beauty queens in a small rural village can be completely different to that of the neighbouring big city.

Yay. Classism FTW. If instead of these people being miners had they been engineers or lawyers would you be raising the same complaint in the same way?

Farhat said: "Yay. Classism FTW. If instead of these people being miners had they been engineers or lawyers would you be raising the same complaint in the same way?"

Actually, honestly I think she would still raise the complaint, because the issue is not "why are these poor shmucks asking for women to come to them".

The issue is the assumption that "women of less beauty" are more desperate. Which i agree with.

I don't agree with Samhita's assumption that this is non-magazine women they're looking for.

But i agree they're saying "if you're fugly, come to us". Which is kinda insulting.

I can't speak for Samhita, but I would be just as offended if lawyers and engineers were acting as though they were doing me some sort of favor by being willing to date me because I don't fit conventional beauty standards.

The whole thing is premised on the idea that a) women's worth is entirely in their looks and that b) women who don't fit conventional beauty standards are sitting home alone desperate for anyone willing to date them.

Others obviously disagree, but personally I find that offensive.

Edit: "The issue is the assumption that "women of less beauty" are more desperate. Which i agree with."

I meant "I agree the assumption is a problem". I don't actually agree with that assumption :)

As one of the several active Feministing Aussie readers/commenters, I feel obliged to provide this update from the Sydney Morning Herald:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/beautydisadvantaged-singles-outcry/2008/08/19/1218911691070.html

(some of the article below)

"The single women of Mount Isa plan to protest tonight after their mayor said ugly women were happy in the mining town because of its large numbers of men, and that more similar-looking women ought to be recruited as a result.

...

The comments sparked outrage among the town's single women, who have organised a protest rally tonight on the lawns of the Civic Centre.

"We want an apology," said Rikki Loccisano. "We are offended and we want to settle the score."

Ms Loccisano, 22, an administration officer, said emails and text messages had been circulating around the town since 9am, urging women to "stand up and be heard".

"It paints the women here as second rate and suggests that the men will settle for anything. He has put everyone down," she said.

"We're going to get together to put forward our opinion."

Up to 100 women, carrying banners and placards, were expected to take part in the protest.

...

In any case, the figures that informed Cr Molony's radical immigration plan for Mt Isa might not be accurate.

According to the 2006 census, males made up 52.6 per cent of the town's population of nearly 20,000.

And in a twist, some of the town's single women hit back saying that, while Cr Molony believed the town had many eligible bachelors, few were up to scratch.

"There are lots of lovely women here, but the men just aren't up to the game," said Catherine Willett, a single 26-year-old podiatrist who has been in the city for 10 months.

"To be honest, there just aren't top-quality men here.

"They are too busy drinking XXXX [NB: a type of Aussie beer] to notice the women and all they do is whistle or yell or beep as you go past - those sorts of communication skills which I just love."

She said the good men were "snatched up" immediately and rarely made it back onto the singles market.

Anna Warrick, 27, a single occupational therapist who moved from Sydney to Mount Isa last year, agreed.

"We've got a saying up here that the odds are good, but the goods are odd," she said.

"The guys don't make much of an effort with the girls - there isn't much wining and dining going on.

"I don't think the guys are terribly romantic from what I've seen."

"If there are five blokes to every girl, we should find out where there are beauty-disadvantaged women and ask them to proceed to Mount Isa."

I interpret "beauty-disadvantaged" as some "PC" way for him to avoid saying "ugly women". It's disgusting that there is an implication that "ugly" women are single and desperate.

Shit like this makes me so angry.

"Men actually have genuine phobia to even court women that don't fit the current "media type". They fear being ridiculed, made fun of etc..." True, and it's not women's fault. As I like to say "I blame the patriarchy."

Aleksa,

i don't really get your point. the assumption is that "beauty-disadvantaged women" is referring to a general "standard" of beauty. and, in australia, as in any other modern, mediated society, that standard is set by a pretty focused set of media. in other words, even in australia, they have cosmo, playboy and television. further, if you compare the models in magazines in australia, france, the united states and the uk, you're going to find a whole lot of similarity (they sell plenty of british and french

i don't think that it's assuming too much to say that this statement places the value of women squarely upon their looks.

nor do i think it's assuming too much for samhita to think she knows something about how beauty is judged in australia. it actually looks quite similar to how beauty is defined right here in the us:
http://www.smh.com.au/interactive/2008/national/100-years-of-photos-beauty-queens/index.html

further, though magazines may showcase different "types" in different areas, it doesn't mean that, in relative terms, these "types" aren't an artificial beauty "standard" to which women are held.

so, please, let me know where you disagree with sami, because i don't think you really do.

and, farhat, what ff said. that's up there with some of the dumber comments you've made. good job.

I commented on this when it was in the community forum:

The mayor has clearly little in the way of tact. It has been, however, that this is not unusual in rural "blue collar" towns (a mining town certainly qualifies) where "plain talking" is more respected than the outward signs of education. Hell, we elected (well not "me" but somebody did. SCOTUS I think) a Yale graduate who can't pronounce "nuclear".

So, yeah, no tact.

However, and this has been discussed over and over, some standard of beauty does exist. It may be an unpleasant fact, but unpleasant facts are still facts. People who are in some way considered "less attractive" may be assumed to have a more difficult time finding a mate. It may not be something which is supported by a quantitative study, but it does seem logical or safe to assume. People also still get married, I dunno' why for all of them but people still do this.

So out there in the world, doubtless, exist people who wish to marry and who are having a difficult time finding someone to do so with because of some kind of beauty related issue. Not fair, not pleasant, but I think a pretty safe assumption. Now I'm not arguing that they should be coerced into marrying any jerk that makes an offer, but in a town of 5/1 they have a pretty good chance of meeting an actual nice person who might be of a standard of attractiveness that would otherwise be out of reach for them. There have been towns in Alaska with the same issue and they have done similar things.

Now it's not polite to point at someone and say "You know we were talking about ugly people? Yeah, there's one now." but it's really dumb to pretend that just because we dislike the game that we don't play it.

Of the women who run this site and who have pictures posted I seem to recall they are all pretty damned attractive. And they are clearly pretty capable of holding smart conversation. How many fugs have you folks gone out with?

Ultimately who does this statement or the attitude it reflects harm? It may play on an existing negative facet of our society (perhaps Darwin would argue our biology), but it is riding that rail not laying the tracks.

If I were the mayor and wanted to attract women in a different manner:

Well I'm sure there are some hunky guys in this town, and some guys who are sweet and good with words. I would have (money permitting) sponsored a calendar featuring the "Men Of The Mines" or something similar, full of sweaty/sooty beefcake. At the same time I would (possibly in the calendar) feature essays written by some men of the town, perhaps poems, profiles including hobbies, etc. All emphasizing that these men are not demanding "Julia Roberts" but just a good companion, etc.

But budget is probably an issue. And here this mayor has gotten tons of free advertising by being controversial. Maybe that was his intent?

wow, goanna, that's pretty wild... and i like that saying... the odds are good, but the goods are odd. lol.

puckalish - as an Aussie, yes the beauty 'standard' is exactly the same. Most of our TV media comes from the United States anyway, and most of the celebrities in our crappy magazines are the same ones your mags obsess about. I think the follow-up article makes a really good point though - the mayor's comments just insult everyone. They insult single women of Mount Isa (of all looks!), they insult the men there (by assuming they'd always choose the "better-looking" women over any others regardless of factors such as intelligence or personality), and they also insult the community (there are a lot bigger economic and touristic problems facing Mt Isa which they should be getting press about, but instead it'll just face worse problems because now everybody hates Mt Isa!)

AND it insults the women who are in relationships in the town - by assuming the men are only with them due to their looks.. in other words, Logrus, it harms people by offending them in a completely un-necessary way, especially when that "5-to-1" ratio is a complete crock (52-53% male). It just assumes that everyone is only paying attention to looks, and that those WOMEN who don't fit the beauty stereotype will never be able to find mates anywhere else, so move to Mt Isa!

Very offensive to all involved!

Goanna:

I hadn't seen those quotes from women in the town now the full quoted text of the mayor about "ugly women" being happy.

And I didn't consider how the comments I had read would have felt to women in the town. I certainly can see more clearly how those comments would be considered hurtful.

As to the men spending all their free time drinking, well the 5/1 ratio may be a contributing factor.

From the few Aussie women I've known I was under the impression that kind loutish behavior wasn't uncommon among all socioeconomic classes of men there (not trying to be an apologist for this but from what I understand the standard of conduct isn't far outside the "norm").

=========
"To be honest, there just aren't top-quality men here.

"They are too busy drinking XXXX [NB: a type of Aussie beer] to notice the women and all they do is whistle or yell or beep as you go past - those sorts of communication skills which I just love."

She said the good men were "snatched up" immediately and rarely made it back onto the singles market.

Anna Warrick, 27, a single occupational therapist who moved from Sydney to Mount Isa last year, agreed.

"We've got a saying up here that the odds are good, but the goods are odd," she said.

"The guys don't make much of an effort with the girls - there isn't much wining and dining going on.

"I don't think the guys are terribly romantic from what I've seen."
==========

Doesn't this make the single women of this town sexist? They are waiting for the men "to make the wining and dining" effort in order to be considered good.

Isn't that a patriarchal paradigm? "Romance" by that definition is a patriarchal concept.

In an equal society there is an equal requirement to communication skills by both parties.

====================
Aleksa, i don't really get your point. the assumption is that "beauty-disadvantaged women" is referring to a general "standard" of beauty. and, in australia, as in any other modern, mediated society, that standard is set by a pretty focused set of media. in other words, even in australia, they have cosmo, playboy and television. further, if you compare the models in magazines in australia, france, the united states and the uk, you're going to find a whole lot of similarity (they sell plenty of british and french"
======================

Agreed, france and australia and the usa are all judo-christian western cultures so the beaty "markers" defined by society are much more similar.

Here's something to ponder, 4 billion of the 7 billion people on this planet are not under western cultures.

In most african cultures for example a woman below a bmi of 30 is considered unattractive. By american standards, anyone who's not at least obese is considered unattractive in those african countries.

Now that's an extreme example in relation to this story as australia is much closer to american standards, but get this... 51% of the united states population does not have access to cable tv. Beauty standards differ as much as language.

Like you can barely understand the folks in an australian village due to their thick accent, so their "criteria" are different.

But here's the most important fact...

Mature, confident, experienced, grown up men do *not* follow societal standards of beauty.

Grown up boys with a beer in their hand do.

And that's an important point.

===============
further, though magazines may showcase different "types" in different areas, it doesn't mean that, in relative terms, these "types" aren't an artificial beauty "standard" to which women are held.
==============

I agree with that. My own sister is a victim of that. And it pisses me off. I sometimes want to strangle the editors of the magazines which she buys because she's obssesed with fitting in the role that they sell her and it kills her self-esteem.

But...

When i think about it in a more composed manner i start realizing that they're not putting a gun to my sister's head and asking her to obsses about looking like their covers. And the actual solution is more individual based, not media-based.

People (of both genders) should be educated that media shows fashion trends, and it doesn't mean you need to follow it.

We as humans have a VERY strong part of our brain that deals with social proof and acceptance. We (depending on the individual genetics), have a huge drive to look at what everyone else is doing and who is considered a "top dog", and we have an instinct to follow that and base our self-esteem on that.

But... nature is not destiny. Just like we have an outdated instinct to hunt for sugar and fats like our life depended on it... We can either sue the companies that sell sugary foods and blame them for "making us unhealthy", OR... we can learn that you don't have to follow your instincts.

I think the story's a fake, because the "Mayor" didn't say "five blokes for every sheila."

norbizness:

Also strangely absent from the article: The name "Bruce", references to "Shrimp on a barbie", "walkabouts", "poofters" (which you would think with a 5/1 ratio would be inevitable), "G'day" or "mate", or the national sport of "knifey spooney".

Yeah, this might be a hoax, perhaps perpetrated by Yahoo Serious or Paul Hogan. Crikey!

Very disappointing to see people's willingness to make vast generalisations about a group of people. But hey, it's ok if they're Aussie men.

Samitha: "You know, this sounds like a really classy group of men". You're willing to make a judgement about all the men in Mt Isa based on a statement by one guy? Should I make assumptions about all Americans based on statements by Bush?

Logrus: "As to the men spending all their free time drinking... From the few Aussie women I've known I was under the impression that kind loutish behavior wasn't uncommon among all socioeconomic classes of men there". Um, thanks very much. It's a good thing my weekly supply of beer ran out so that I was sober enough to read Feministing.

And "sheila" comments? Really?

tom:

You took two disparate quotes and joined them. One was me stating a response made by a local woman that the men are in the pub drinking all the time, with me commenting that it does not seem like there is a whole lot else for them to do. Hardly an attack on their virtue.

The second part of the Frankenquote you created was me stating, quite clearly, that I had been told by the Australian women I have known (three in all) that compared to the common attitudes they have experienced in the U.S. Australian men are more predisposed to the kind of overt sexist behavior most of us would consider crass or loutish. While it is a generalization, it wasn't mine.

The only generalization I'd like to make is based on your own statements: Aussie men don't get sarcasm.

I think the story's a fake, because the "Mayor" didn't say "five blokes for every sheila."

Also strangely absent from the article: The name "Bruce", references to "Shrimp on a barbie", "walkabouts", "poofters" (which you would think with a 5/1 ratio would be inevitable), "G'day" or "mate", or the national sport of "knifey spooney".

Yeah, this might be a hoax, perhaps perpetrated by Yahoo Serious or Paul Hogan. Crikey!

How could you read this and think we were being serious? We were obviously playing on the common stereotypes to illustrate that much of what we know of Australia is based on fiction and humor.

Crikey! Did the dingoes eat your sense of humor? I bed you've never made a joke about a Kiwi shagging sheep, or an Irishman being drunk, an American being a gun-obsessed loon, etc?

Logrus: Sorry, I thought that "that kind of loutish behavior" referred to the previous paragraph where you were talking about drinking.

And I did understand that you were being sarcastic. That's why I didn't use any of your canned "Aussie" phrases. I thought you did a pretty good job of taking the piss out of the previous commenter. My complaint (aimed at norbizness, sorry for not being explicit) was that it gets a bit tiring to see someone make a "crikey" or "sheila" reference any time anything vaguely Aussie comes up. Maybe I'm over-sensitive due to being in the US currently - getting exposed to incorrect and rather derogatory caricatures representing you and your home gets to you after a while.

"I bed you've never made a joke about a Kiwi shagging sheep, or an Irishman being drunk, an American being a gun-obsessed loon, etc?"

I would never make a joke about Kiwi sheep-shagging in a forum where I thought there might be Kiwis around who might get offended, or similarly annoyed by the tired humour. But that's just me. I don't generally believe in the right not to be offended (it's pretty incompatible with freedom of speech) so go your hardest. My annoyance was that Feministing is a forum which usually tries to break down stereotypes (especially those where some right-wing misogynist would defend it by saying "get over it, it's a joke") and where we try to fight generalisations about people, and there was someone cranking one up.

And I don't think I've ever heard a joke in Australia about Americans being gun-obsessed loons. Aussies get an awful lot of American news and TV, so we do understand that it's a complex place. The joke would be about a redneck. :)

tom: Well I'm sorry I came back at you with such vitriol. How about you look me up if you're ever in Portland and I'll buy you a Fosters? That's what you guys drink, right? ;)

"I would never make a joke about Kiwi sheep-shagging in a forum where I thought there might be Kiwis around who might get offended, or similarly annoyed by the tired humour."

That's the problem with the internet. In person you can usually smell the lanolin, so you know to keep a lid on it.

BTW: What stereotypes do you folks have for Americans? Now I'm curious.

Logrus: Re Fosters: Ouch, that's just cold. It's made worse by the fact that the only place over here that you can get my preferred brew, Coopers Ale, is at Outback Steakhouses. At least the last one I visited had a Sidney Nolan print on the wall.

BTW: What stereotypes do you folks have for Americans? Now I'm curious.

Hmm. There are subculture specific ones like rednecks or Jerry Springer style trailer park "white trash", and some of the evangelicals might get a bit of a run. And probably a few about loud American tourists expecting everything to be in English and asking where the nearest McDonald's is. Race Around the World did help with that, I swear I knew quite a few people who like watching it just to see some xenophobic Americans dealing with foreign cultures. I watched the end of a series of that a few years ago and cheered for the "hippies" who won - they seemed genuinely interested in the cultures that they visited and took the time to learn the local phrases for when they interacted with the locals. Good for them.

More generic stereotypes require a bit more thought, but I suppose there are a few traits that might come up if you asked an Aussie about American stereotypes:
-ignorant of anything outside US borders
-big meals / waistlines
-religious (well, more so than Aussies)
-capable of voting for George W. Bush twice ;)

tom:

-ignorant of anything outside US borders

That's pretty accurate.

-big meals / waistlines

Also pretty accurate.

-religious (well, more so than Aussies)

Well pretty much everyone here claims to be religious, but nearly nobody has a scholarly interest in the theology they claim to adhere to. As a Jew I come from a culture that has a strong emphasis on both learning "the book" but also questioning that book; so most so-called "religious" people I encounter who don't a) know much about their version of the bible and b) follow it blindly without c) ever stopping to question the inconsistency and contradictions of their beliefs (like the vast number of people who claim to be Christian and yet are for the death penalty) really confuse the crap out of me.

-capable of voting for George W. Bush twice ;)

A more accurate stance would be that the easily frightened, xenophobic, homophobic, anti-intellectual people are more willing to show up and vote than the supposed intelligent folks seem to be.

"America, all the really smart people are too busy whining about wanting change to show up and make it happen!"

Logrus:
As to the men spending all their free time drinking, well the 5/1 ratio may be a contributing factor.

From the few Aussie women I've known I was under the impression that kind loutish behavior wasn't uncommon among all socioeconomic classes of men there (not trying to be an apologist for this but from what I understand the standard of conduct isn't far outside the "norm").
Posted by Logrus Author Profile Page

Firstly, if you'd actually read what I posted in reply to you, you would have noticed that the 5-to-1 ratio the mayor spoke about is BULL.. in the 2006 census MALES made up 52-53% of the population, though I concede that this statistic does include children, I highly doubt that somehow that increases to 83% (a 5-to-1 ratio) in adulthood.

Also that 'standard of conduct' you outline really does depends on what kind of people you are friends with. Generally speaking the majority of Australians enjoy drinking (as much as Americans and Brits and Irish and Germans) but problem drinking in Australia is really concentrated in poor areas and in outback areas.

Also I find that the more multicultural your group of friends is, the less of the traditional "aussie bloke" culture you see.. as such I have maybe two male friends who I've seen behave in that way.. most of the guys I know just roll their eyes when it's mentioned! Like how we women roll our eyes when someone mentions that all blondes are usually bimbos or when anyone uses an "all X are generally Y" argument.

P.S. I totally agree with Tom that those are generally the images that come to mind when you mention Americans to Australians. Funnily enough it's another "all X are generally Y" argument to which I'm sure a lot of US citizens would roll their eyes at too!

I'm surprised that the generalisation in Samhita's original post hasn't been torn apart. I thought we feminists were meant to want fairness and balance and equal representation in reporting, and have hawk's-eyes for when this doesn't happen? Only one person mentioned it briefly and then nobody else paid any attention.

Apparently, "the Australian outback" is the one keeping it classy, not this one crazy redneck who's had overexposition in the media because he's the Mayor. "A real classy group of men" ... "these people". Granted, the article did feature two men saying similarly superficial things, but surely that's not enough to warrant such generalisations. How about applying the same standards that you do when discussing something closer to home, or even more so, something that you're reporting in a positive light?

Someone from the town was interviewed on our morning radio programme, and believe me, he sounded about as classy as the Mayor. I almost cheered when the presenter told him that they were more likely to drive women away from Mt Isa than attract them if they were going to say stuff like that.

Hahah! I always had a bit of a niggley problem that this site was so US-centric, but recently there's been a couple of stories about Australia and now I'm rethinking that niggle...

ANYWAY what's with all these touchy Aussies? I don't think Samhita has been particularly ethno/nation-centric here, and I don't think she's been more unfair than she would have been had the story been "closer to home."

It was pretty gross that this story was published in a paper. Samhita pointed that out. This is a blog and not an academic journal article.

At the same time, I was surprised the Bill Henson issue wasn't posted up here when all these smaller issues are...or did I miss it?

"Foster's: Australian for Miller Lite"