While the tone of it is quite harsh, and I can understand why it might crack you up, do you dismiss the content altogether? Is it possible that this particular email contains some valuable criticisms that you may have considered if only the delivery had been different?

To be clear, I'm not supporting (or not) the content of the email. It's totally up to all of you to decide whether or not to take any of it seriously. But do you see a problem at all with publicly mocking an email that says:

I am pro-feminist, but your whole vibe makes it increasingly hard to say that [...] Distant aloof rhetoric among the feminist elite is wearing thin [...]

To be honest, I've noticed that it seems to be increasingly common in feminist circles to attack or mock those who dare to point out that perhaps there's room for improvement in the various feminist communities. And it feels especially wrong to treat other feminists and feminist allies this way; to exclude and alienate them because we don't like they way they phrase their objections. It seems to run contrary to much of what feminism is all about, at least from my own perspective.

I guess all I'm saying is that just because we may not appreciate the manner in which certain objections are stated, doesn't mean there's no truth to them at all. And I wonder if it's to our disadvantage to dismiss them out of hand just because we don't like the tone in which they're delivered.

Heh, the only thing funnier than the mentally-deficient cat-typing of the average hate mail is the guys that try to be intellectuals by using big words to back up the same stupid ideas. I don't just mean feministing hate mail, either; even the hate mail I get is subject to this hilarious dynamic.

You should publish this guy's email (if he is a guy) so we can teach him the error of his ways. Via logic, and possible profanity.

1) Samhita's comment is the funniest thing I have read all summer.

2) Huh? I don't understand what the emailer is talking about. I haven't seen any entries here where you can't comment??

3) Lottie, while you are correct that feminists should definitely pay attention to criticisms and improve where possible, I don't really see anything helpful in this email. There's a vague allusion to a "vibe" on feministing that the person seems to regard as "aloof," and s/he also seems unaware of the various ways in which feministing DOES address MRAs, on youtube and elsewhere. Your own comment is itself far more helpful than the email -- pointing out that mocking can be taken too far (as it can). But, honestly, I didn't see much in that email that could be construed as a remotely helpful criticism.

i'm with lottie here. this belongs under a different heading: "anti-feministing mailbag". look, i don't think this site is perfect, either (those damned walmart ads are STILL up a week after jessica e-mailed me to say they'd be taken down!), and i think that this e-mail raises some valid points, as well. (slate's xx factor blog has been discussing MRAs and father's rights and the clark rockefeller case, and i've heard nary a peep out of feministing, and that makes me sad....i want to hear your viewpoints!) just because this e-mail is written in a bratty tone doesn't make it invalid. if you're the feminist debates i think you are, then i think this e-mail deserves to be responsibly rebutted rather than dismissed.

Wow.

I think it's really uncool of you to take an e-mail where the sender, who identifies as feminist, is giving you criticism that could be useful in parts and to label it anti-feminist, invite people to mock it with you and dismiss all the criticism it contains with a wise crack about masturbation.

If you're going to post the e-mail, why don't you tackle the points it makes, which have certainly been made before?

I acknowledge and embrace the fact that feminists can hold a variety of contradictory opinions and attitudes and ideas, and can all still be equally called feminists.

But ya know... I have a really hard time taking anyone seriously who considers YouTube comments a legitimate form of discourse.

(Also: Pro-feminist? Does that mean you approve of feminists but you are not one yourself? Is that possible?)

SueDoc, Pro-feminist is a term that refers to men who support feminism. There are schools of thought within feminism that believe that men cannot be feminists by definition. I guess that there is really no difference between the meaning of pro-feminist and feminist beyond gender, but many people (including myself) do not think that feminist is an appropriate word to use for men concerned with women's right.

Perhaps I've missed something, but what exactly does MRA mean?

Men's Rights groups, basically. In other words, sexist asshole anti-feminist groups.

Ok, thanks for clarifying!

Seriously, folks, this person is clearly not "pro-feminist"...

I mean, come on! What valid criticism is there? That feministing doesn't allow the writer to post comments? Do you guys see how many comments get posted (some of which by people with very questionable sanity)? That the posts "suck" and are "factually vacuous"? Seriously? You all agree with that shit and think this person is a feminist with valid critiques? Feministing is "running scared"? Seriously? I don't know about this YouTube shit, 'cos I don't surf the web as much as I build it, but I haven't noticed the staff here toning down their posts or anything because of MRA dumbasses. And it's not really their jobs to get into flame wars with some of the douchebags who shit all over the comment threads. Would you rather they do that than write several interesting posts every day? Really? Come. On.

Did you read the piece? I'm definitely feeling Jess on the whole twilight zone thing... and I'm with Sami on the whole masturbating thing...

Also, about the ad complaints... you guys recognize that feministing is not a newspaper, right? The ads are served up by another company, which means than feministing has to go and lodge a complaint or trouble ticket with that company and there may be some back and forth (anyone who has experience with tech support knows what I'm talking about)... in other words, they can't just take an ad down the second you send an email, but they seem to be pretty quick about it. Not to mention that a good deal of their ad space is used for more "progressive" advertisements, which I'm sure don't provide the same premium. But folks keeps complaining like the feministing staff is trying to silence y'all. I think you just need to understand how the process works a little better.

Sure, thank folks for their patience, Jessica, but I just don't see that patience actually getting practiced by folks.

Picking through this diatribe for logic to work with and respond to is like picking through shit for peanuts--you may find some, but considering what it came out of, do you really want to touch it?

I agree that there is a need for honest debate, but this kind of dood isn't looking for a debate or any kind of intellectual exchange. If he did, he would've phrased much of his argument (if you can call it that) differently.

Although I'm all for open discourse and debate, I don't think it ought to be the job of anyone at Feministing to sift through each asshole's emails/comments respond to whatever logic remains intact after the insults and snarkiness are removed.

I'm reminded of this.

We feminists are getting schooled by YouTube commenters? What the...? This assclown has nothing of value to say. He made a few ignorant accusations that aren't based in fact. And he started of by telling the editors how much this website sucks. Sounds really pro-feminist, heh.

It might just be me and the fact that I'm at a low-caffeine point of my work day...

...but did anyone else seriously not get that? It made no sense to me whatsoever and it is completely lacking in logic.

P.S. I agree with Samhita....

Jessica,

I completely understand. That's why I said it's totally up to all of you whether or not to take any of it seriously.

However, the fact that this may be some jerk talking shit does not negate the fact that attacking and mocking people who don't jump on every feminist bandwagon is becoming an increasingly common and accepted phenomenon within various feminist circles.

If something is true, it's true no matter who says it. And I wonder if publicly mocking something like this sends the message to "true" feminists and feminist allies that they'd better not criticize the "establishment" lest they too be hung out to dry.

I often find myself walking on eggshells when I comment on feminist blogs. I felt that way as I wrote my last comment. I feel that way now. It's been my experience that disagreeing or stating an unpopular viewpoint can cause a terrible shit storm that lasts for days. And contrary to the opinions of some, I do not enjoy that it the least.

But I am very much my own woman. My ideas are my own, and they're rarely in line with any majority. But isn't that a large part of what feminism is supposed to be about -- women thinking and speaking for themselves, making up their own minds and forming their own opinions and taking control of their own lives?

I don't feel any better off or more in control of my own life taking cues from other women than I did being controlled by men. It's six of one and half a dozen of another to me.

Silencing minority views seems counterproductive to the entire feminist movement, in my opinion. And posting those views (regardless of who states them) for the purpose or pointing and laughing can serve to silence the views as much as the individuals, via intimidation (not that it's intentional or deliberate).

Sorry to stray so far from the topic. So many different things occurred to me as I started writing this comment. Thanks for allowing me the opportunity.

Sincerely,
Lottie

I have a TEENSY WEENSY bit of sympathy for those who would like to see a really thorough and direct bit-by-bit takedown of the most popular MRA talking points, just because that would be cool and interesting. This email, though, is totally ridiculous. Aside from all the just infantile stuff in there, what is this "running scared" business? I know this is totally dorky, but I think perhaps apropos: to steal a line from Dr. Horrible, "Dude, you're not my nemesis." Feminists and MRA people are not somehow on equal footing engaged in this singular struggle against each other. We as feminists are addressing and critiquing the world, and you MRA people, well, you are a reaction to us, if anything. Which is exactly why it's not at all our obligation or duty to engage with you if we don't have the time or inclination -- we've got better things to do, an actual nemesis to fight, as it were.

Although I'm all for open discourse and debate, I don't think it ought to be the job of anyone at Feministing to sift through each asshole's emails/comments respond to whatever logic remains intact after the insults and snarkiness are removed.

When the minority is a guy that contradicts the few basic tenants of feminism, ridicule is not just acceptable, but should be encouraged.

Wait, we're the feminist establishment now? News to me ;)

Jessica and Ann,

Speaking only for myself, of course, what I see as valid points and criticisms are the bits I quoted in my first comment. I have identified as a feminist my entire life (I'm forty-one years old) and I can relate to those two particular points (in general, not necessarily pointing at anyone here).

I believe I've explained my thoughts in enough detail already, so I'll try not to hog up much more of the comments section.

Thanks!

Jessica,

I wrote that last comment before I saw your last comment (hate when that happens).

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate what you're saying and what you do here.

Thanks also for the opportunity to discuss this today.

Sincerely,
Lottie

"I know this is totally dorky, but I think perhaps apropos: to steal a line from Dr. Horrible, "Dude, you're not my nemesis.""

I'm sorry, I just had to highlight that line and comment about how awesome it is that you quoted Dr. Horrible. And made a good point as well.

"isn't that a large part of what feminism is supposed to be about -- women thinking and speaking for themselves, making up their own minds and forming their own opinions and taking control of their own lives?"

I agree, Lottie. I think that dissent is an important and vital part of a healthy society, including societies like this one.

The difference is, IMO, in this case the pro-feminist person has already decided that the majority of posts here are "sucky" and that they suck "consistently". Instead of offering up a healthy counterpoint, the author immediately attacks and moves to put those at feministing on the defensive. And maybe it is an MRA and maybe it is a real pro-feminist. But respect has to flow both ways, and that letter was without any of it. It is hard to have a point-counterpoint debate with someone who signs off with masturbatory suggestion.

...

I fail to see how this is a valid criticism. Okay, if someone mailed to say, "I dislike A, B, and C, and here is why, laid out logically and without sexually crude suggestions" and it was mocked, I could see a certain amount of surprise or frustration.

But... are we reading the same email here? Because all I see is the same, "But I have black/gay/trans/whatever friends and they don't care/think it was funny/agree with me!" whiny BS.

'Pro-feminist' my slightly saggy ass. In what way was this a pro-feminist call to debate? I don't see it.

idiolect, word to the Dr. Horrible quote-age. There are kids in this park, you know?

For the record, suggesting that there could possibly be a valid point or two buried under a heap of steaming bullshit is not the same as saying that every word of it is valid, or that it was intended as anything other than shit-stirring.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day...

I agree that people shouldn't be isolated, but once they start putting sexually explicit insults into the picture they have clearly crossed the line. He basically just said "go fuck yourselves".

"instead of using it to masturbate amongst yourselves?"

"Mastrubate amongst yourselves", way to perpetuate stereotypes about feminists. He seems to think we are a bunch of sexually promiscuous people. The "amongst yourselves" part could also be interpreted as homophobic because all of the feministing editors are women.

He clearly is not interested in any kind of productive discussion because he already has a pre-concieved idea of how people at feministing behave.

i'm one of those people who would love to see a really good takedown of the MRAs. one that draws, crystal-clear, the line in the sand that shows the difference between wanting both mothers and fathers to be equal, enlightened divorced co-parents and treated as such under the law, and the MRA tools who endlessly act like victims because OH MY GOD I MIGHT HAVE TO PAY CHILD SUPPORT?! MY GOD, MY EX-WIFE IS SUCH A BITCH AND I'M SUCH A VICTIM!!! i ***really*** want to see that. i just see this e-mail as actually asking for that takedown, not that a MRA actually wrote it. (i could be wrong; it's happened before, and i'm sure it will happen again.)

oh, and to puckalish, i thought three days or so would be fast enough to get the ads taken down. didn't realize it would take as long as it does. sorry for whining about it. (i just SERIOUSLY hate walmart.)

sorry i'm with jess on this one.
claiming to be pro-feminist and including a grain of constructive feedback is no excuse for the tone of this email. "factually vacuous"? seriously?

and anyone who thinks jessica and the rest of the crew should spend time responding to youtube comments, which are by all estimation the trolliest of trolly commenters is crazy, stupid or both. it's more of this silly idea that feminists somehow must always respond to every insulting, derisive, disgusting comment in a calm, sweet, articulate way. ummm, no. youtube commenters aren't looking for a rational discussion and responding to them is nothing but a waste of time. as my father likes to say "arguing with [people like that] is like wrestling with a pig--you both get dirty and the pig likes it."

The Law Fairy:

I scrolled right past your comment before. Sorry about that.

I appreciate what you're saying and I agree. I was responding only to the two tiny excerpts that I quoted because I actually relate to feeling that way myself sometimes. Those were the points I felt were valid. Granted, they were buried quite deep in cow manure.

petpluto:

Point taken. :-)

Can I just say, on the topic of envisioning feminism as this active dialogue, that I absolutely love the new "community" feature on this site? I'm pretty sure I've said it elsewhere already, but still, way to encourage us to really get involved in the discussion. Awesome.

baddesignhurts,

i second your apology, because i think some of my vitriol from the mailbag email might have spilled over into explaining a bit of how ad serving works. so, please, don't read everything i wrote - just the informative bits.

Since when have Youtube comments been serious business?

Since when have Youtube comments been serious business?

Oh, come on, Jocelyn. Everyone knows youtube comments are the height of intellectual discourse.

OH MY GOD I MIGHT HAVE TO PAY CHILD SUPPORT?! MY GOD, MY EX-WIFE IS SUCH A BITCH AND I'M SUCH A VICTIM!!!

;-)

Wow. This is a mock-intellectual argument. I like how he criticizes the "aloof rhetoric" that's used when he himself is using it. Pot kettle black anyone?

This is a troll laying bait.

BTW: I lurves the pig reference Riley! So right on. : )

Okay, am I the only one who got this????

>>"Mastabate amongst yaselves."

Seriously, I almost wet myself laughing.

I read feministing almost daily and am disappointed in the posting of this letter. Clearly, it’s not the most intellectually stimulating or beautifully analytical letter but I do think some of the points in it are important because it’s likely that the writer of this email isn’t the only one feeling this way.

It seems to me that youtube is not an inferior form of discourse that can be ridiculed either. To be fair, feministing is a blog and in a lot of ways so is youtube. The fact that feministing, and feminists are being criticized on youtube and that people think they’re wiping the floor with us is disheartening to me. Not because it’s on an low form of communication but because youtube is a common form of communication and an important one to many people – what does it mean that a popular form of discourse is filled with antifeminist statements, and what does it mean that this writer (and likely others) don’t see us addressing it except on blogs designed specifically for feminists?

It seems to me that this also applies to what the writer says about elite feminists – academic discourse and specifically feminists blogs (or anti-racist, anti-colonial, environmental, socially aware etc) are not the most important forms of communication and for us (as feminists or pro-feminists) to engage in dialogue and discussion even with voices that we don’t respect and with comments that are inexcusable is a way of engaging in a fight for feminism. I think fighting for equal rights ranges from equal pay to engaging in this discussion even (or especially) with those that oppose us the most.

I also don’t see any value in publicly humiliating people who criticize the blog, even if it is filled with insults, and unacceptable language.

Also, what makes you sure that the writer is MRA?

as a male who doesn't really know how do describe himself in regards to feminism -- i guess i can't really call myself a feminist per open sketch, and to use the term "pro-feminist" seems really fucking lame to me -- and as one who can empathize with the "walking on eggshells" sentiment, i totally appreciate Lottie's comments.

to be clear, the writer of this e-mail is clearly not feminist or pro-feminist, unless he was (among other things) trying to use the term "sister" ironically. in my reading he really had no real valid points, feminists should not be responding to this e-mail, rather, they (we?) should be responding/considering/discussing the real points of interest and issues where rational minds might be like, "hey neither the blowhard MRA's nor feminists are making sense here." although i agree with idiolect that MRA's are for the most part "not [the] nemesis." meaning i also don't think that the majority of youtube comments are worth addressing.

i guess what i'm really trying (in such a convoluted manner) to say is that i haven't really hammered out where i am on a few issues that can relate to feminism. it would be cool to have a place to be able to discuss and figure those things out, a lot of times feministing is just what i'm looking for as far as that goes, but sometimes it just doesn't feel like that place.

apologies for the run-on sentences, hopefully i eventually figured out how to express myself.

A perfect recipe for writing a stupid email/comment in which the author is just asking to be humiliated and torn to shreds:

-Not being clear what what EXACTLY they have a gripe with, not to mention why.

-Using the rest of the writing space to pack as many insults as possible.

On the subject of 'feminists' not taking constructive criticism well, why are those that identify themselves as feminists expected to be much more enlightened than the average man/woman so much so that all of them MUST take constructive criticism well? At the end of the day, there are people who can keep their ego in check and those that cannot, whether they be feminists, fathers/mens rights activists, minority rights advocates, etc, etc, etc.

Okay, seriously, this it isn't funny to mock other feminists, I completely understand what this pro-feminist means. I seen some of the video that counter the Friday feminist fuck you and they're actually very good, in fact a little too good. I think that this e-mail should be responded to. But you shouldn't have to answer every e-mail that disagrees with feminism.

How are you not engaging with the antifeminists? The fact that this website exists shows that we are, or more precisely that you are.

Having said that though, there does seem to be a trend amongst the left to allow themselves to be insulted and not respond, or to be refuted with easily rebuffed statements, I think we should be more aggressive and uncompromising and not allow any antifeminist sentiment to go unpunished.

And he started of by telling the editors how much this website sucks. Sounds really pro-feminist, heh.

I like this site better than most other feminist blogs I've visited, but Feministing is not the alpha and omega of feminism, and it certainly doesn't represent all that is feminist.

To assume that someone isn't really pro-feminist simply because s/he thinks this site sucks seems to play right into the "distant, aloof ... elitist" remark.

I think we should be more aggressive and uncompromising and not allow any antifeminist sentiment to go unpunished.

If we spent all our time responding to antifeminists (which wouldn't be enough time to respond to even have the "antifeminist sentiment" out there) we would have no time left over to do what it was we were doing that antifeminists had a problem with in the first place. I say we pick our battles wisely.

"have" should be "half." Oops.

A. I completely trust that Jessica et al. have encountered enough hate/MRA/insulting email to know what is or is not hate/MRA/insulting email. I also trust them to know what is crossing the line in terms of whose email to publish. The internet is a lovely way for scary creeps to say what they want and not get held to it, so I say, it's kind of like a creepy uncle- you know he's not going to harass you in front of the family, so you have to call him out on it the best way you can.

B. The trend of women not calling themselves a "feminist" but still believing in feminist theory/practice, can be attributed to thoughts/emails like this. Who wants to be treated like shit just because there's MRA anger and violence attached to the term? We have to counter crap like this every chance we get.

C. I understand the "walking on eggshells" bit; I often feel like I have to be careful when commenting here. But really, upon introspection, if I get thumped soundly, it's either because my comments aren't clear or thought out well enough yet. Even when they are, they might not follow "party line" to the letter, but I don't get my knickers in a twist because everyone isn't falling all over themselves to agree and be my bestest friend. But that's why I keep coming back for more.

D. Just because someone uses phrases like, "factually vacuous" and "Distant aloof rhetoric among the feminist elite" doesn't mean it's a "valid criticism" of Feministing or feminism. Big words don't make people right. I know, I went to grad school.

brad, I think men can call themselves feminists. I don't know where people got the idea that you have to be a woman to identify as a feminist -- it certainly doesn't sound like a progressive understanding of feminism to me, since not all females are women and not all women are females -- i.e., gender is socially constructed, that's the whole POINT of a lot of what we have to say, so why on earth would we definitionally enforce a harmful gender binary?

As for where you can go to discuss things, check out the feministing community -- you can start your own post about an issue you'd like to talk about and I imagine you could elicit some interesting responses if you present your thoughts in a clear and rational manner.

OK, Idiolect, you make a good point! :] Thanks for the reply! I stand corrected

"Distant aloof rhetoric among the feminist elite is wearing thin"

What does that even mean? Distant and aloof, eh? that's a bit redundant, don't you think?

I'm sorry, I can't take the e-mail seriously, nor can I take anyone defending the "arguments" within the e-mail seriously.

@open_sketch -- thanks for the explanation!