I for one am glad she's no longer competitively swimming in full length sable coats; that's just ridonkulous.

I'm floored.

These people are TWICE as f*cking crazy as I thought they were.

Do they honestly think that this, and those to be atrocious border ads will work? First of all, the wealthy people who wear fur aren't going to look at an acceptably "hot" woman and think, "gee, what I'm doing is wrong and I should stop." They're going to think, "Hot chick, naked" and move the fuck on. And do they honestly think that poor immigrants, often coming from a "macho" culture of eating meat, are going to see one sign and change their hearts? You've got to be fucking kidding me. PETA has lost their fucking minds if they think any of this is effective.

" "If the Border Patrol Doesn't Get You, the Chicken and Burgers Will -- Go Vegan.""

I am offended and appalled. I am completely offalled.

I am an animal rights activist and against animal testing. However, there are a lot better organizations out there other than PETA. The other organizations do not use women's nekkid bodies as a means of advertising themselves. I never saw the Humane society using such depictions. I cannot stand PETA and for what they do by creating women and their bodies to be exploited in their ads. Also, PETA does not have a good history of treating animals with dignity, either, which is SICK!

Plus, when I see these ads all I think is wow...

Besides the opportunistic aspect of utilizing exploiting the already contentious matter of the border fences, this tactic seems to smack of elitism.

(hmm, the strikethrough html doesn't seem to be working in the preview pane)

I guess I will put my leather wallet back into my leather purse and high-tail it in my leather heels out of the fur store... I'll stop my sinful leather-using ways when the protesters stop their women-using ways. (Likewise, I boycott American Apparel.)
*Also: What's that shadow on her neck? Is it supposed to be her medal/a collar/etc?

Ultra, you hit the nail on the head--POOR immigrants. These people are coming from dirt poor ass little towns, risking their lives and their freedom to sneak across the border to find better lives for themselves and/or their families. If they have chickens and cows to eat, they're freaking happy.

I'm mostly vegetarian for health reasons and I do think that there is a lot that needs to be done to improve the safety as well as the humanity of our food supply, but let's get a little more real here. This lifestyle is VERY trendy and very geared towards those with the means and access.

Yes, beans and tofu are cheap, but vegetables and fruits are not, nor are they readily available to everyone, and unless you know how to cook the stuff like a champ or have been feeding it to them since they were small, most kids aren't going to eat the stuff. It's a limousine liberal mentality, that their choices are going to change the world. No one cares.

Those annoying rich people who think that wearing the fur of a dead animal is chic are still going to buy it, because they don't feel that same connection or empathy you do. It's just another object, another commodity to them.

I know plenty of vegetarians and vegans who aren't skinny bitches and all perfect according to this ideal--but PETA PROMOTES the ones that are as a way to lure folks in like "Look what you can have. You'll be super hot...oh yeah, and healthy...and you're making the world a BETTER PLACE by not ACTIVELY doing anything to alleviate the suffering of animals, but by passively waving your fist at the meat industry and eating tofu."

What a crock of lentils. I'm tired of the "sex sells" bit from Ingrid Newkirk. She's a fucking moron. If she can't find a better way to tell women to not eat meat b/c it's processed in a way that can make you sick without trying to demean the female body (AND INTELLECT), then she needs to go back to her job as a dog catcher.

Why aren't there any naked pictures of HER in their ads?????

I'm even less comfortable in my own skin after seeing that ad. It's 72 out but I just might don my leather coat so I stop feeling so flabby.

If PETA doesn't offend you with its sexism and racism, maybe this will:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i_4w_sLLEcauM1G4kb0Ld03RCR3AD92DIJ1O0
"PETA ad compares bus beheading to animal abuse"

As a vegetarian who has wrestled with the way my fellow meat (and animal product) eschew-ers have represented the cause to the world at large, I can say plainly that I have nothing but contempt for PETA, the shortsighted sensationalists of the progressive movement.

Many self-righteous but socially narrow vegans and vegetarians fail to acknowledge how much the choice to adopt this lifestyle is connected to privilege and access to enough food options to be able to create a healthy diet without the inclusion of meat or animal products. The insistence on sexually objectifying advertising is yet another example of this ignorance- making the consumption of animal products some sort of silo issue, as if it's not at all connected to endemic social structures that are the fabric of Western society. That said, they're my favorite people to argue with at parties- so easily out-maneuvered!

They also like to stress that you can be sexy and lose weight with a vegetarian diet. They did this with the somewhat recent naked Alicia Silverstone ad. Maybe I should tell them that since I have become vegetarian a couple years ago (not for vanity purposes) I gained 15 pounds in a year. I actually feel healthier, but healthier doesn't necessarily mean skinny. And I didn't want the weight/put it on on purpose (pain to buy new clothes to fit new size).

I wish there was another visible pro-veg group. I hate PETA and a lot of meat eaters associate vegetarianism with PETA, making them dislike the veg cause. To me they are like the Valerie Solanas of the veggies: puts people off from the actual issues.

From my (limited) experience with PETA, a good two-thirds of the members are teetering on psychosis and self-loathing. Got Dignity?

From my (limited) experience with PETA, a good two-thirds of the members are teetering on psychosis and self-loathing. Got Dignity?

I would like to see some more discussion about why vegetarianism/veganism is a lifestyle of privilege, instead of just taking it as a fact.

Three things that I think are important:
-Some religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism practice vegetarianism. Many, many people in India, one of the most poverty-stricken nations

-Any livestock for human consumption is a huge waste of energy. The amount of crops that it takes to feed an animal for slaughter, has a lot more calories and nutrients than the meat that ultimately comes from the animal. If we gave up raising livestock and just ate the grain that we are feeding to these animals, there would be a lot more food to go around for everyone. So really, you could see our culture of meat-eating as a privileged lifestyle because of all the wasted food required to keep it going.

-Yes, vegetables are expensive. Meat is a protein, not a vegetable, and there are cheaper proteins than meat, like beans and tofu.

I'm gonna go have some chicken and burgers for lunch. It's gonna be great.

And the flag is the wrong direction!

To add to what stana said, I think that, especially in this country, vegetarianism is a privileged choice. Many people in the USA can no longer access healthy cheap food. (Although that is hopefully changing with farmers markets accepting food stamps and such things).

However, many/most people in the global south are and have been vegetarian for ions (and not just for religious reasons). Meat eating has not always been cheaper; it has become that way because people have lost the ability to produce their own food. That will only get worse with the patenting of food and huge corporations owning everything.

Moreover, as stana noted, meat production is incredibly inefficient and is only adding to the global food shortage. We ship corn and grain from the global south to feed our cattle, and that is also an issue of privilege.

Meat production is also the number 1 cause of global warming, which, like everything, has a greater impact on the poor.

This is a feminist issue. It's just too bad that PETA has to make it so anti-feminist. Urgh

THANK YOU AMANDA AND PETA FOR MAKING ME FEEL UGLY AND INSECURE WITH MY BODY.

Hi all - just stopping in to do the same song and dance I'm forced to do every time someone brings up PETA.

PETA may be the most mainstream and have the most money of all the AR groups, but they're certainly a far cry from being the one that best represents the values and ideologies of veganism. I have only met a handful of vegetarians of vegans who are okay with PETA's tactics (and I know a whole LOT of veg*ns). However, PETA doesn't listen. I've written a few letters and gotten the same auto response ever time "blah blah blah we respect women blah blah blah it's they're choice". Please turn your attention towards AR groups who are actually doing some good and aren't so narrow minded such as Friends of Animals or Vegan Outreach.

On vegetarianism being a privilege - that is just blatantly false. Fruits and vegetables are expensive and hard to come by? Again, simply not true. Pound for pound raw fruits and vegetables are less expensive than meat and easier to safely prepare and cook too. Maybe being a raw microbiotic vegan would be expensive and a privilege, but personally my food budget was cut in HALF when I stopped eating meat and dairy. Eating meat is the privilege. Why is it do you think that roughly half of the worlds population is vegetarian and the other half only eat meat sparingly? For the majority it's not by choice, it's because they can't afford meat. As the economy in this country gets worse people are finding that they have to cut meat out of their food budgets because it's just too expensive. See the last paragraph: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92592545

I'm certainly not the first in this thread to declare a total repulsion to PETA and their use of naked ladies to promote their cause. I remember seeing one stunt of theirs where they put a nearly-nude woman on her hands and knees in a cage in a public square for a few hours to demonstrate the living conditions of sows in factory farms. Honestly, why not use a sow?? The idea of using the exploitation of one group to supposedly liberate another is so ethically and intellectually bankrupt, it's appalling.

And yeah, the bus beheading thing? Here's the proposed ad. Putting yourself in the same league as the Westboro Baptist Church in attempting to capitalise off a horrific tragedy is pretty a-hole-ish indeed.

I'm a vegetarian & animal lover, and I'm really proud that I convinced the only PETA member I know to stop contributing to PETA because of these gross ads. (However, a little perspective: didn't Jessica Valenti and a number of the commenters on this website defend the cover of _Full Frontal Feminism_ on the same grounds--that a "fun" picture of a flat, white tummy (here, a naked white athlete) might hook young people who would otherwise be skeptical that feminism (or the equally hippie-ish vegetarianism) is for the frumpy?) What really pisses me off about PETA is the obsessive use of naked, *tortured-looking* women when they are supposed to be advancing a progressive, compassionate position. And I'm beginning to think that Newkirk and her buddies are really just a bunch of pervs trying to get their kicks since I don't know that even strip clubs advertise with this much obsessive sexism. And it kills me that they are the most public anti-animal cruelty people!

It’s important to note that the blanket of “privilege” is not only about access or cost, it’s about priorities , and an individual’s entire worldview. If your priority is feeding your family, period, the grand vision of global sustainability which is easily called upon by Western progressives is often not on your radar, even when as mentioned, you’re abstaining from meat for specific religious, cultural or economic reasons.

I’ve done quite a bit of traveling involving homestays in various cultures, and I have made the decision to eat meat in situations where it would have been simply offensive, insensitive and culturally inappropriate for me to refuse what my host family is preparing for me. In other places, where I have had more freedom to practice my vegetarianism, it’s still locally viewed as an oddity pretty frequently, even if people are by necessity forced to reduce or eliminate their meat consumption. People are willing to listen to my rationale, but I am a passionate opponent of proselytizing a lifestyle which for me personally is dependent upon being able to skip merrily down the street and buy tofu at the local organic store, and since I don’t live in a place where meals are prepared communally it doesn’t cause any problems for my friends and family’s food preparation. In many developing countries, the priority is getting food on the table, period, as well as access to housing, healthcare, employment, and physical safety. There are a lot of platforms on which all this is connected and can be organized around in the developing world very easily, but the decision to not consume animal products, while entwined, is one about which Western vegetarian/vegan activists should be very careful in lecturing to the developing world (we were talking about PETA ads aimed at the Mexican border here). Particularly in from purely animal rights angle of PETA- if you don’t have rights yourself, you’re going to laugh at anyone who tells you that you should be denying yourself further for the sake of the livestock. There’s also a big difference in advocating vegetarianism vs. veganism in these situations- vegetarianism makes a lot more sense.

Nebraska, where do you live? Do you live within walking distance of a major supermarket, or have a car to drive to one? Because in my neighborhood, until a couple of years ago, the only grocery options were convenience stores. The only produce those stores sold was a basket of fruit on the counter - some spotty apples, oranges and bananas, and that's it.

If you didn't have a car, your only option was to get on the bus and do your shopping somewhere else - at least a couple of hours round-trip. Not that easy to find the time, especially if you work a lot, because it's not like even the supermarkets you can get to on the bus are open 24 hours like the ones in the suburbs are. And once you're there, sure, fresh meat is more expensive than an equivalent amount of fresh veggies - but that's assuming you can afford either.

And then, if you lived in one of the SRO efficiencies that dot the area, your only option for cooking any of that food was a microwave, or maybe a hot plate if you were willing to risk getting kicked out for creating a fire hazard. No freezer, or just a tiny one, so you're not buying things that might go bad before you have a chance to eat them. Nor do you really have the time or the energy to worry about whether the food you are eating is vegetarian or not. So you buy the processed, canned, boxed, etc - the cheap stuff, not just the cheaper stuff.

My neighborhood is lucky, in that we did finally get a real grocery store, and people do have more options (there are still plenty of people in the area who can't afford fresh veggies or fresh meat, though). There are still plenty of places in the US that aren't nearly so lucky.

just have to say that there are some really fantastic and interesting comments on this post. If only PETA could see the world with that kind of nuance....

Not a PETA fan, but just so you know, they *do* use men sometimes.

This is an ad with Steve-O from Jackass.

http://blog.peta.org/archives/2007/10/steveo_id_rathe.php

Yet another vegetarian, animal-loving veterinary worker against PETA here. I honestly think they're the Westboro Baptist Church of animal rights - the craziest, most vocal will give us all a bad name and they end up convincing no one to join the cause.

I eat, I try not to harm other living creatures, I disagree with Peta being assholes, and feel that being Vegan isn't something deserving of the blind hatred of otherwise progressive and intelligent human beings.
I'm also amazed out how quickly people break out "privileged" when they don't like something.

My veggie food cost less than when I ate meat. I don't have difficulty buying fresh produce because I have access to a co-op and farmers markets but this is not the reality of poor urban and rural areas (I lived in Texas for a short stint and there was less quality produce in that town).

I don't know why this happens, but there is a lack of fresh produce in the "poor" grocery stores/part of town. A lot of it is canned. An example would be the grocery outlets which have cheap meat but mostly canned fruits and veggies. And I've never seen tofu there even though tofu can be much cheaper than meat. A meat free diet can be a lot cheaper but only with access to resources and education with how to prepare the food/good nutrition. I think this is harder with American cuisine (meat and potatoes). In other countries that I have been to the normal cuisine is heavy in veggies, eggs, and noodles (Asia). There are numerous outdoor markets and carts with fruit. We simply don't have that in the poor areas in the US. So a lot of it is cultural.

this is FUBAR for so very many reasons, but i thought i'd throw in another one: is anyone else troubled by the flag-in-the-water imagery? i support the legal right to defile the flag and i understand how that can be a very potent symbol in protest and political discourse, but what the hell does the american flag do in this instance besides provide an overwrought backdrop to her being naked? the flag getting wet/being on the ground is considered a breach of etiquette (i'm from a five-generation military family, so i learned all that stuff), and i could understand PETA wanting to do so, ***if their protest had anything to do with the government***. they're not calling for any law to be passed or trying to publicize governmental hypocrisy or to assert that their position is somehow patriotic. and with the ads-on-the-border-fence, it's clear they're not even targeting solely americans. so in my view, the flag imagery is misplaced and just like ms. beard's naked body, really only good for cheap, tired shock value. i think that's really disrespectful to the country. (again, i support the legal right to defile the flag, but i think that people should feel an ethical responsibility to use the symbol of flag desecration with care, in order to maintain the power of that protest, not as an essentially meaningless bit of graphic nonsense.)

Nor do you really have the time or the energy to worry about whether the food you are eating is vegetarian or not. So you buy the processed, canned, boxed, etc - the cheap stuff, not just the cheaper stuff.

This is begging the question.

If one accepts the premise that animals are just property that we can use as we please, then the argument can be made that it is elitist to avoid doing so, just as it is elitist to do or not do any number of other things with property. But all must first agree on that premise for this argument to have any weight.

If one rejects the premise that animals are property, which means they have a moral right not to be made to suffer or die for trivial purposes such as flavor or convenience, then it is no more elitist to avoid eating animals and urge others not to than it is elitist to avoid eating one's human neighbors simply because they're nearby. Not having a large selection of foods doesn't justify cannibalism.

So you can't even go to the elitism place until you've resolved the fundamental argument: whether animals have rights or not. If they do, elitism doesn't fly as avoiding their consumption is morally obligatory. If they do not, it doesn't really matter anyway, does it?

But Ryan, that assumes - at least your final question - that animal rights is the only reason to avoid eating meat. There are numerous reasons.

I haven’t heard anyone here rail against veganism/vegetarianism itself- this is about representation and responsibility of people who are attempting to promote the lifestyle. If you want someone else to change their lifestyle and values, it makes sense to accurately take into account what that person’s lifestyle and values actually ARE first.

For many people, their reality doesn’t have a place in which to discuss whether or not animals have the right not to be consumed for food. It’s a cognitive disconnect, since human societies in peril usually have only the time to devote their resources to ensuring human life continues. When they’re fed and safe and enjoying a relationship with animals which is not purely resource-based, quite rightly people start to identify the need to advocate for these animals.

If only this were about personal likes and dislikes, or who really cares about the rights of our animal companions. Thoughtful discussion of privilege scares a lot of people, as if their own identity is being negated just to acknowledge that they have access to different resources with which to participate in and assess the world. That doesn’t make it any less real, unfortunately.

I eat animals because I love and respect plants too much. Each potato uprooted is like a dagger through my heart.

If veganism is all that healthy why do all the vegans I know have a ton of supplements in their pantries and eat "fortified" break and stores that cater to vegans have aisles full of "supplements".

ahh...that break should be bread above.

PETA threads always turn into debates re: the ethics of using animal products, as though opposition to PETA = opposition to animal rights.
A lot of us feminists are vegetarians or vegans and are VERY concerned with animal welfare. It's very disingenuous for PETA-lovers to come here lecturing us, as I can assure you that many feminists are also animal-lovers who try to make ethical choices as consumers. It's entirely possible to "get" and support the animal-rights cause without supporting PETA. I thought the post made our issues w/ PETA very clear.
At the same time, it really bothers me when some PETA-haters resort to making jokes about enjoying burgers and wearing fur, as though making crass anti-animal jokes is a good way to stick it to PETA or something.

SarahMC, I'm not sure who that's aimed at, but I haven't seen any PETA lovers on this thread. But I agree with you that feminists are generally ethical consumers. Just one reason that I love 'em.

Yeah, pretty much the LAST reason I'm going to convert to vegetarianism is because some naked lady told me to do so. And CERTAINLY NOT because she's encouraging me to be skinnier.

Shitty advertising aside, putting up signs on the border seems relatively colonialist to me. As in, Mexicans have no choice but to look at these things that insult their existence and culture day in and day out, therefore PETA is imposing a foreign belief system on them. I hope the govn't sees how inflammatory this "campaign" could possibly be, and thoroughly stomps it.

SarahMC, I'm not sure who that's aimed at, but I haven't seen any PETA lovers on this thread.

No, but at least one commenter accused us of "blind hatred" toward vegans/vegetarians and only using the word privileged because we don't like it/them. This is what SarahMC is referring to (correct me if I am wrong, SarahMC). Every time a post is up criticizing PETA for their ads, someone (generally more than one) come here and accuse us of hating on vegans/vegetarians when, if they would just take the time to read the post and comments, it’s very clear that’s not happening.

adminassistant, brings us back to the actual point of the post:

"Yeah, pretty much the LAST reason I'm going to convert to vegetarianism is because some naked lady told me to do so. And CERTAINLY NOT because she's encouraging me to be skinnier."

BINGO!

Farhat, there are non-vegans out there who also rely on supplements to make up for what they lack in their diet...which is not healthy. Nobody should do that. And from what I've read, people shouldn't rely on fortified foods, either, vegan or non-vegan.

But just because someone does take a supplement in addition to their diet does not automatically make them unhealthy. For instance, I take a multi-vitamin specifically formulated for vegans and a vitamin B-12 supplement. All other nutrients, I get from plants.

Colleen Patrick-Goudreau has a podcast at http://www.compassionatecooks.com/ about what vitamins vegans should make sure they're getting.

Jack Norris, from what I understand, has also done a lot of research on vegan diets. http://www.veganhealth.org/sh

banning images of attractive women in advertising seems to be the only solution at this point.

...being Vegan isn't something deserving of the blind hatred of otherwise progressive and intelligent human beings. I'm also amazed out how quickly people break out "privileged" when they don't like something.

Not actually seeing any "blind hatred" of vegans... perhaps you should re-read the thread.

As for privilege, I grew up in northern Alberta, and when I was a kid, the only produce I saw was bags of potatoes and cooking apples. They do ship it up there nowadays, but the cost is very high. The Canadian government is subsidizing the cost of shipping fruit and vegetables up North to try to encourage people to eat them.

I also recall when I was in college and had little money, a piece of fruit cost between $.50 and $.75 (yes that's in the grocery store). A $1 pack of chicken wieners and and a $.99 bag of buns made for 12 whole meals, however. And Ramen was 4 for a buck. I know I sure as hell wasn't eating produce.

If you want to talk about how affordable and easy it is to be vegan... go to Nunavut and tell it to the Inuit. I'm sure they'll sympathize with your outrage.

I know it's no fun, but you (and the others who are lucky enough to have the opportunity to make those dietary choices) might try examining your privilege, please.

Before industrialization, eating meat was a luxury. As previous posters mentioned, the cost in land and feed made (and makes in many parts of the world) livestock prohibitively expensive for more than the once-or-twice yearly (often religious) extravagance.

The average lifespan in the Roman empire at the turn of the first millenium CE was 25. Younger if you were a woman.

I'm not suggesting these two things are directly correlated--there are all kinds of factors governing lifespan--but one can infer that vegetarianism/veganism does not necessarily equal healthy any more than omnivorism does. In order to have a healthy diet, you need a balance of all kinds of things, and an easy source (not the only one, of course) for some of those is meat. Besides the political and ethical issues with using the border fence to advertise anything (it's not a sports stadium, people), I find it irresponsible and cluelessly elitist to advocate what can be an expensive dietary habit to an extremely poor demographic, under the guise of "health."

Also, what MaggieF just said.

Isn't that flag hanging the wrong way? I always thought it went stars then stripes. Anyway . . . .

It doesn't surprise me at all the PETA would assume that Spanish-speaking people came to the United States illegaly. It's obvious that PETA is sexist and classist, but they're racist too. Here's one of their FAQs.

“What about all the customs, traditions, and jobs that depend on using animals?”

The invention of the automobile, the abolition of slavery, and the end of World War II also necessitated restructuring and job retraining. Making changes to customs, traditions, and jobs is part of social progress—not a reason to deter it.

I would love for Ingrid Newkirk, the British woman who founded PETA, to walk up to any Lakota, Inuet, or Aborigine living on a reservation and say, "Excuse me, but your custom of hunting for food, shelter, and clothing is immoral, and you must assimilate to my uniquely Western view of animal rights." I'm sure that would go over real well coming from someone whose ancestors kidnapped native children and forced them to lose their language, religion, and way of life. No member of PETA respects animals and the environment as a whole as much as the people who completely live off the land and are dependent on the preservation of natural resources. Newkirk doesn't care if any group of people lose their livelihood as long as she keeps her peace of mind.

Farhat, there are non-vegans out there who also rely on supplements to make up for what they lack in their diet...which is not healthy. Nobody should do that. And from what I've read, people shouldn't rely on fortified foods, either, vegan or non-vegan.

I really don't care what people "should" do, I was just making an observation. Vegans seem to rely a whole lot more on supplements while seeming to state that veganism is healthy and complete diet. Others take supplements as well, but I really don't see the same level as vegans so. Some vegan parents have even killed their kids by strictly following that diet.

"Some vegan parents have even killed their kids by strictly following that diet."

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this last sentence. All the instances that I've read of vegan parents killing their children happened because the parents were being extremely stupid. There was one set of parents who fed their child on a diet of carrots and another who fed their child on apple juice and soy milk. But the number of these parents compared to rest of the vegan population? It's not the vegan diet that is to blame, it's the idiotic parents.

There is tons of information about raising children on a healthy vegan diet out on the net and on the bookshelves. I think it's silly to judge veganism solely on a handful of not-so-smart people.

Flag's hanging vertically - look at the direction of the stripes. I'm pretty sure that's okay. I've seen it that way a lot, anyway. They basically just hung it up regularly and turned it clockwise.

Also the ridiculous irony of advertising on the border fence. "We wanna keep 'em out, but since they're just gonna come in anyway, we might as well sell to them."

Lord.

Sex has been used since the dawn of mankind and probably will never go away, thanks to our hormones(both male and female mind you)

still, it is indeed a sad sight that PETA tries to influence women into not buying fur through ther looks. Women who care this much aobut their looks aren't the ones who care about inner beauty, these women care about getting attention and getting a man/woman, depending on their sexual orientation.

Meanwhile, I'd like to see some anti-fur ads in which the humans wear real substitutes for fur coats - thick, warm coats without fur. Imagine one with snow in the background, a warmly dressed person hugging a fox or something, and a slogan like "stay warm and let animals do too!" :)

I would also like to see the ad Mina describes- mainly because it sounds ridiculously cute.

Vegans seem to rely a whole lot more on supplements while seeming to state that veganism is healthy and complete diet.
Many vegans, like myself, don't use allopathic drugs, because they are tested on (and sometimes, made from) animals. Those of us who 'rely' on supplements are often using them in place of relying on more violent systems of medicine. I don't take lots of supplements because my diet is lacking, but because they are keeping a life-threatening health condition at bay.

Any drug you use will eventually have to be tested on animals as humans are part of the kingdom animalia. I volunteer PETA members for that as each member could probably save tens of rats and mice and it would give them real joy to be saving them.

I don't take lots of supplements because my diet is lacking, but because they are keeping a life-threatening health condition at bay.

That brings another question. Why do so many vegans have different conditions. It is certainly larger than in the general population. Vegans also seem to age significantly faster since their diets will lack collagen unless they take supplements.

Farhat- "Why do so many vegans have different conditions. It is certainly larger than in the general population."

It "seems" to me that this is a pretty big assertion, and one that doesn't really hold up to reality. The number one killer of Americans is heart disease.

Farhat, I'm curious where you are getting this "data" from. Would you care to post some links to well-researched articles about the majority of vegans having "conditions" and "aging faster?"

No offense, but the tone of your comments on veganism suggests a sort of anger towards the diet itself... and like you aren't very open to information about it.

It seems like the fact that more vegans use supplements (if that is actually a fact) could easily be that they are just more diligent about making sure they get an adequate intake of vitamins.

I am so sick of threads about PETA attracting people claiming how cheap and easy vegetarian diets are. Vegetarian diets are easier to maintain when you have adequate access to fresh, quality produce, and some foreign products like tofu, etc. NOT everyone has this access.
I live in Newark, NJ. This is one of the most economically depressed areas in NJ. For those of you who have easy access to a Stop and Shop, Whole Foods, Traders Joe's, etc., imagine if your life was like this--your primary grocery store is gone. If you want fresh and quality produce or meat, you have to take a bus or walk to the next town because there IS NO GROCERY store. I don't know how to make this any clearer, but there is no grocery store in the middle of Newark, not even a Gristedes. There is a limited farmer's market that's in operation when I'm at work, once a week, June through October. Other than that, you have to get your groceries at a bodega. The fruit and vegetables are poorly refrigerated, usually spoiled, and covered in insects. Rice and beans are in abundant supply, but that's it.
Now tell me how easy it is to go vegetarian, when I don't even have room to garden and have to get my groceries in another state (I work in NYC and there's a Gristedes near the PATH station.)
The argument that fruit and vegetables are cheap and everywhere reeks of privilege, it's like some people can't even comprehend that there are parts of America where unprocessed foods aren't available for everyone.
I have to say, though, I do hate how much energy is invested in factory farming.

From the Cleveland Clinic. Scroll down to "Getting enough nutrients" and read the second sentence.

Farhat, I read the second sentence: "Those of you following a primarily vegan dietary pattern, however, are at higher risk of nutritional deficiencies for nutrients like iron, vitamin B12, zinc, calcium and vitamin D."

But it does not address the "conditions" and "aging faster" issues that you talked about. It talks about being at a higher risk of deficiency. Being at risk of a deficiency is not the same as actually having a deficiency or having some kind of "condition." Out of that list, I think vitamin B12 is the one nutrient that vegans should make sure they are getting from a supplement since the vitamin is not plentiful enough in plants like it is in meat (and dairy, I think). Vitamin D would rank second, in my opinion, while letting a varied diet take care of the rest.

Words like "risk" and "deficiency" do make the diet sound hazardous. Anyone can be at risk of deficiency if their diet is poor.

Farhat, if you read the whole article you linked to, instead on one sentence, you'd notice it is mostly about health benefits of eliminating meat from your diet.

Considering your original comment said that vegans have more "conditions" than the "general population," that looks pretty bizarre. The takeaway from that article is that vegans are more at risk for certain vitamin deficiencies and should pay extra attention to that, but are much less at risk for the diseases that kill more people in the US than any other.

I'm not saying you need to quit eating meat, but your hostility toward veganism is leading you to some pretty silly logic.

Oh Christ. I am an animal rights activist (hence the name), and the last thing I want to do is get into it on this thread. The anti-animal rights/vegetarianism heat is palpable here and I gave up having the same aggravating fight over and over again when I left college. Or so it seems...

You can tell people over and over again that meat and dairy are terrible for you and that factory farms (the way the majority of the meat in the US is made/slaughtered) are horrific polluters, breathtaking wastes of resources, environmental nightmares, and home to some of the most flagrant human rights, immigrant rights, and women's rights, (not to mention animal rights), abusers in existence. That last fact is particularly amusing considering how many "socially conscious" people on this board are defending their participation in such an industry.

I could point out that meat and dairy are, on a whole, way more expensive than fruits, veggies, and grain, and while being able to be selective about what you eat IS directly linked to privilege, feeding yourself and your family on a vegetarian diet is actually less expensive if done correctly and will probably save you money in the long run due to health-related expenses (fast food/obesity/diabetes anyone?). I could point out how vegetarianism and environmentalism go hand in hand, mention all the health benefits, and regale you with cringeworthy stores of the viciously barbaric ways in which slaughtered animals are treated. I could inform you that I've managed to maintain a vegan/vegetarian diet for 6 years on practically no money, while eating fast food, at restaurants, cooking myself, etc., with little if any additional effort. None of it matters - when people want to eat meat and wear leather and believe animals are made entirely for human consumption, facts ain't going to stop them. There will always be an excuse.

And I've heard them all. I've heard all about your vegan friend who's "has all kinds of problems." I know all about the time you "tried to be vegetarian" but it was "just so HARD" because you "couldn't eat ANYTHING!" I've heard about your sister who "went vegetarian but then her doctor told her she was getting really sick so she HAD to stop OMGGGGGGG!!!!" I know all about how you "get your meat from sustainable local farms so it's not thaaaat bad." Yes, you've told me the one about the parents who "killed their kid with a vegan diet" (how many more have given their kids serious health problems with a steady diet of McDonald's)? I've even heard the one about the guy who had to sustain himself entirely on "liquidized meat drunk through a straw" when he was a little kid, otherwise "he would die." Seriously. Personal anecdotes really don't mean anything in this debate. I was vegan for 3 years and I've been vegetarian for 3 more after that, and for the first time in my life my cholesterol is at a normal level after having been sky-high my entire life, my protein levels are actually ABOVE when I was a meat-eater, and I'm in the best shape of my life. See? That means nothing to you, but it's true. It's just so fucking completely laughable that people claim that a vegan diet is unhealthy. A vegan diet, for MOST people (not counting those with specific allergies or special health needs or conditions that conflict with it), is THE healthiest way to eat. Period. But yeah, keep claiming that a diet rich in veggies, fruit, and vegetable-based protein is unhealthy. It makes you look really smart.

Nobody's perfect and nobody can fight every cause. I recognize the fact that some people cannot be selective in what they eat because they do not have the resources or the privilege to do so. I recognize that we do not live in a society that makes it particularly easy or acceptable to be vegetarian. I realize that animal rights rank very low on the majority of people's concern lists. I realize that many people just simply aren't willing to give up meat and/or dairy because they like it and don't care enough about the cause or don't believe in it at all. This is all ok.

What is NOT ok is attacking vegans and vegetarians, and spouting bullshit about how wrong they are about things they're really right about, how unhealthy veg diets are, and ignoring all the really obvious and provable problems with the meat and dairy industry. I mean, fuck - we all do things we know are "bad" (bad for us, not in line with causes we believe in, etc.) but at least we admit they're "bad." I am a feminist who wears a lot of makeup and high heels and watches porno (all arguably unfeminist things), but at least I admit the confliction between my behaviors and beliefs and don't defend it with a childlike loyalty and complete disregard for actual facts. I am big enough to admit that I am a product of my culture and environment, and, as hard as I try not to, I often engage in behavior or activities that are not conducive to my fight for social justice.

I totally get the the viscerally antagonistic and apologist response to animal rights activists and vegetarians, because that used to be me. I was the person who laughed in my vegetarian friend's faces and scoffed that they were full of shit when they would patiently answer my bratty and patronizing questions about their lifestyle. I would purposefully eat meat in front of them while mocking their beliefs. I refused to even consider that perhaps it wasn't cool to believe it's ok to deliberately inflict pain and suffering on a defenseless living being. I never really had a *zing!* moment where it all clicked and all of a sudden I flipped and became super vegan warrior lady, but I do know that after countless conversations and a bunch of my own research and reflection, I really couldn't ignore or attack the argument for animal rights anymore - for my sake, for society's sake, and for the animals' sake. And after all is said and done, I realized that the reason I was so adamantly against animal rights, the reason I so viciously attacked my vegan friends, the reason I so proudly denounced the rights of animals to exist without being tortured by humans...is because I ultimately knew I was really fucking wrong. At the time I was a really dedicated peace activist, and I just couldn't ignore the close correlation between the fight for human rights and animal rights anymore. But honestly, I used to sound JUST like Farhat.

I find it interesting that really the only progressive social justice movement I've ever seen attacked on Feministing boards is the animal rights movement, even with its connections to feminism (Sexual Politics of Meat, helloooooo?!) I've seen people go easier on MRAs. It is so completely disrespectful to say things like "I'm going to go eat chicken and burgers, yum!" and brag about all the leather you use with the specific intention of being flagrantly offensive without actually adding anything to the discussion. Just because you don't agree with PETA's tactics doesn't mean the cause itself is wrong, and saying things to purposefully hurt the Feministing readers who strongly believe in animal rights is just unnecessary. Bragging about how you, the big, mighty, deserving human, just LOOOOVES to fuck over animals, doesn't make you look cool. I mean, really - what are you tying to prove? Congratulations, you're an asshole! What's next? Rape jokes?

Holy shit - I completely forgot why I originally was commenting. Anyway... I'm only on here defending animal rights, not PETA, because there are clearly some obvious problems with their tactics and I am in no way claiming that their use of naked women is acceptable. That being said, I'm really getting tired of this misconception that PETA never uses nude men. Attack PETA if you want, but at least be accurate - it took me 30 fucking seconds on Google to figure it out. Here is a collection of ads that feature nude/semi nude men (or mixed gender groups with men in them):

http://www.peta2.com/outthere/o_ami_james_tattoo_image.html

http://www.peta.org/mc/ads/Steve-O_Rather_Go_Naked.jpg

http://www.peta2.com/outthere/images/SteveO_InkNotMink.jpg

http://www.peta.org/pdfs/Boss_Models_ad.jpg

http://www.peta.org/mc/ads/simpleplan72.pdf

http://www.peta.org/mc/Billboards_ads_images/Todd_Oldham_Kathy_Najimy_ad.jpg

http://www.peta.org/feat/jennaethan/page/Jennahires.pdf

http://www.peta.org/feat/frankapotente/frankaFULL300.pdf

http://www.peta.org/mc/ads/ad-kristoff.pdf

http://www.peta.org/mc/ads/rodmanthink-72.pdf

http://www.peta.org/mc/ads/ad-davidcross.pdf

http://www.peta.org/pdfs/ADmola.pdf

http://www.peta2.com/outthere/pdf/P2macdanzig72.pdf

http://www.peta2.com/OUTTHERE/page/400-mates-of-state.jpg

http://www.peta2.com/OUTTHERE/page/lg-miretad.jpg

http://www.peta2.com/OUTTHERE/page/P2tommyleeINK72.jpg

Yes, their advertising is still problematic (why are all the men posed in "powerful" positions and women are all seemingly passive?), but clearly PETA doesn't shy away from using naked men in their ads.

Oh, and one more thing (I know, I know). I also find it interesting that we tend to admire and respect the strong and beautiful bodies of female athletes, but are attacking Amanda here for "making us feel bad about ourselves."

Amanda Beard is not a supermodel, though I realize that yes, she is modeling here and the point is that her body is being held up as a standard, but come the fuck on! She's not a waif, she's not posed in a meek and vulnerable position, she's not in a particularly sexualized position, and she looks about as far from unhealthy as you can get. She looks like a strong, confident, healthy, athletic woman here - complete with thick muscular thighs, chiseled arms, average chest, and a relatively round tummy. Her body is not what I would consider the feminine "standard."

Yes, there are plenty of PETA ads where surgically enhanced women with are used as passive, pretty objects, and yes, I wish they used a wider variety of sizes and skin colors, but this is a pretty powerful ad. Amanda looks fucking fierce here.

I mean, really - if this was for something other than PETA, I'm relatively sure that readers here would love it.

That border patrol thing is fucking outrageously not ok, though.

MoxieHeart:
"If you want fresh and quality produce or meat, you have to take a bus or walk to the next town because there IS NO GROCERY store.I don't know how to make this any clearer, but there is no grocery store in the middle of Newark."

This hasn't been true for about 18 years- there is a Pathmark in the central ward. They are open 25 hours. This week they have a sale on organic celery hearts, locally grown cucumber, black mission figs and asparagus.

In many ways, this store is an exception that proves the rule about groceries in poor areas (the supermarket, while profitable, was developed in a partnership with neighborhood development groups,) but it just isn't correct to say there is no grocery store in the middle of Newark.

Because of the the private/nonprofit partnership most of the store's revenue goes back into community programs, so if you really are unaware of this store may I suggest you make a (short) trip there?

Thanks, TheSoyMilkConspiracy, for articulating a lot of feelings that I share. (I've also heard almost every one of those dumb excuses for meat-eating.)
I do think that, for many people in North America, a veg-based diet does involve a certain degree of privilege, however. I survived a number of years of absolute poverty, living mostly off street-vendor veggie dogs and falafels, because I lived in a rooming house where the evil landlady didn't allow me to cook or keep food, even in my own room. (Illegal, yes, but I was too poor to get out of the situation.) I didn't give up my vegan lifestyle during this time, but my health definitely suffered (it would have on a non-veg diet as well, naturally). I remember how much time I spent just looking for foods I could eat and afford, that would fill me up well enough to allow me to think straight -- that is more difficult on a vegan diet.
Now that I have an apartment, I'm back to my beloved veggies, and it's definitely cheaper than either home-cooked non-veg stuff or fast food of any sort -- but you do need a certain amount of time, energy, and resources to prepare your own food, which the poorest of the poor simply don't always have.

According to the Flag Code, when the flag is hung vertically, the union - the blue field with the stars - should always be to the upper left.

On PETA, I'll say what I always say when posts like this come up: They do these ads to get attention, and you're paying attention.

Oh my, I meant to say that PathMark is open 24 hours a day, of course (damn insomnia talking.) If you are really feeling adventurous, you might try to go there on the 25th hour, but I'm not sure I recommend it.

This is by far not the first time that PETA has been a road block for women. Remember that in the NOW v. Scheidler case, in which NOW was took right wing anti-choice nutjobs all the way to the supreme court for their use of intimidation to close down clinics, it was this bunch that defended Scheidler's methods in an amicus brief filed on behalf of Scheidler. Scheidler was responsible for Operation Rescue's attempts to close down clinics with intimidation - not just protesting.

TheSoyMilkConspiracy, you rock.

FuckDecaf: Damn, there's a Pathmark? Where is it? I've only been to a ShopRite in Kearny, or a just go to Jersey City. I'll definitely start going there, especially since it's helping the neighborhood.
I live in the North ward and I used to shop at a C-Town but they shut it down. I was really hoping that when Corey Booker came into office that he'd be able to attract a grocery store in a central location so everyone could use it. Instead, downtown has 3 Starbucks.
SoymilkConspiracy: Aside from the one comment about eating a burger or a steak, I haven't seen anyone here attack animal rights. I doubt that anyone would argue that animals should be made to suffer. But we all come from different backgrounds and some of us grew up eating meat. I've found that a lot of vegans/vegetarians spend time attacking our lifestyles and a better tactic would be to present the facts about factory farming and its effects on the environment. It takes a lot to change and I just wish that vegans/vegetarians would be more patient with us omnivores.

MoxieHart-

The PathMark store is right across the street from the University hospital on Bergen. I hope your shopping trips are a little more convenient now!

I myself am a "lapsed vegetarian" (like a lapsed Catholic.) I think that veggies and omnis both would be a whole lot better with each other if we don't treat other people's dietary choices as some kind of challenge to our own moral core. "Meat is murder" vs "for every animal you don't eat, I'm going to eat two" is not a great way to change anyone's mind.

Well this ad has accomplished what it is supposed to: get attention. It doesn't matter if you think it is awful, offensive or love it. You're thinking about it and that is the goal.

I am a PETA supporter and have been for many years. I personally find nothing offensive about nudity whether it be female or male. If I were given the opportunity to participate in this campaign I'd do it, and my body is far from perfect.

Besides this is an athletic woman. She is going to have a toned body. I'm sure the main objective with her participation is because of her Olympics activities (I believe she's in the Olympics. I never bother to watch the events, not my thing), her personal morals against fur and the ever controversial China that has horrific animal abuse. Not because of her body type.

I'm probably a minority on this one but it has never bothered me at all with women participating in provocative ads, careers or wardrobe choices. And seeing an attractive woman in an ad like this does not make me doubt my appearance. But that is just me.

in France we have this ad from Peta

http://celebrite.aol.fr/eve-angeli-tv-les-stars-se-denudent-pour-la-bonne-cause/PTFR_104709/p-p_p/article_id/photo-star/article.html

How can any woman who is not a model feel good about being butt naked on an ad. Of course they did photoshop this of course
Why does Peta continue to exploit women saying that they are protecting animals? Women are not as important as an animal? Women can be exploited and that is OK? But dont exploit your dog or cat or anything else, just women cause theyre used to it. They are sick and disturbed. Will continue to eat my meat, thanks.

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