I am thrilled to see this action taking place. Often as Canadians we are quite passive and to see women take a stand to assert their rights so publicly is indeed inspiring...feeling very maple leaf,red and white today

Wow, imagine that! Breasts are actually a functioning part of the human body and not JUST an object of someone else's (man or woman's) pleasure or displeasure. Yet many businesses do not blink twice when a young woman walks through the doors wearing a low-cut or midriff baring top or a miniskirt so short she'll "show it all" by bending over. Yes, it is her choice to wear that, and I respect that. But the same freedom should be afforded to women who want to feed their infants without hiding in the cave of shame (i.e. bathroom stall).
Also, my sister is a big advocate for nursing. She is a midwife and expounds on the virtues of breast feeding to all of her clients. Rock on ladies of Vancouver!

I find this so exciting! There's so much discrimination directed at pregnant women and young mothers. And none of it makes any sense either. So thank you the mothers of Vancouver!!!

Oh, and thank you dads!!! Can't leave out the wonderful men who supported this.

Question. I'm not sure how I feel about this subject. I'm all for women being free to breastfeed where ever they want, but isn't there a fine line between that and straight up flashing everybody within a 10 foot radius?

I am confused. If i don't want to see a woman breastfeeding, don't I have that right as well? ESPECIALLY in restaurants. I would never subject others to it, and frankly, thats why they make breast pumps. It's not about seeing the breast as something other then sexual, I just find it sort of gross. Sure others may not and that's your preference, but honestly, I don't see why asking people to cover up while doing it, (which many dont) is really that big a deal.

While I don't consider breastfeeding in public to be obscene, I do believe that there is a line between acceptable and just down right tacky. I applaud protest participants for standing up for themselves and their movement, even if I don't support the protest itself.

I was surprised at many of the comments on the related posts, and these seem to be taking the same thread. I think what we need is a good feminist analysis of why breastfeeding is considered "gross" or discomfort-inducing. I'll start, and hopefully others will add:

1. Many have identified the fact that the breast is highly sexualized, while maternity is seen as asexual. (Ironic, isn't it?) Perhaps this creates a cultural cognitive dissonance.

2. I noticed that many people would use phrases like "whip out" a breast, "flash," and so on. Our culture has a deep fear of women's bodies being out of control, and this phrasing seems to reflect that. (As if raging, hostile breasts are roaming about...paging Woody Allen!)

I know feministing members are amazing cultural analysts, so wow me!

"We apologize. And it seems to be a miscommunication and a misunderstanding. Our policy is to allow breastfeeding nursing mothers to breastfeed or express milk freely in our stores"

Recognize!

Seriously. Breast-feeding is one of those topics that really gets to the core of how we view women's bodies. Why are women's bodies automatically conflated with sex and shame? Let the baby eat for crying out loud.

It's nice to see an issue regarding breasts that doesn't involve a profit motive, alcohol and video cameras.

"frankly, thats why they make breast pumps"

Except for the ones with babies that refuse to take bottles, or those that nurse every 30 minutes around the clock, or the mothers with nipples too tender to use breast pumps, or those concerned with nipple confusion or teeth development, or those already away from their babies ten hours a day who want to make every moment they are together count, or those who have not had more two hours sleep at a time for the past few months, or with babies who get a kick out of throwing the blanket off of their mom's shoulder at the worst possible time, or babies who wake up at the smell of food in a restaurant and want to eat, or those that are thirsty and need to drink despite it not being a scheduled time and mom not having a bottle ready, or the mom who is too exhausted or not making enough milk to pump, or the one who is battling postpartum depression but had just enough energy to treat herself to a meal out.

THEY should have to stay home for the next two years so that the rest of humanity will not be forced to see their child eat or deal with a natural body function like lactation. At the very least, they should have to feed their kids in the bathroom (because it is such a clean environment and that will be a big boast to their psyche).

When my oldest was born, he ate around the clock. After three months, I was exhausted and haggard. He refused a bottle and was almost hospitalized for dehydration when I took everyone's advice and "stood firm." After three months, I had enough energy and was secure enough to venture out to a restaurant for an extended family event. Ten minutes in, there was the sniffing and rooting that signaled my son was hungry. Rather than subject everyone to the blood-curling screams that I knew would come next, I quietly breastfed in a sling.

I doubt anyone noticed until the waitress served us. She saw, brought the manager and asked me to leave. It is one of the saddest moments of my life, nursing in the cold car in the middle of winter, waiting for the engine to warm up and the baby to finish so we could go home.

Because my son was hungry at the wrong time.

Well, Katie, perhaps I can help clear up your confusion.

You have every right to not see a woman breastfeeding if you don't like it. It's called turning your head. No one is making you look.

Your comment 'that's why they have breast pumps' shows that you have never breastfed a child. For one thing, when babies, who have tiny stomachs, get hungry, they need to be fed *stat*. It is not the same as you waiting a while for your meal. Sure, the mum could pump some milk before she leaves the house...as long as enough time has passed since the last feed so she has enough for a full feed, but by then the baby is probably ready to eat again.

Also, if she gives the baby a bottle at the mall, she may get painfully engorged due to not releasing the waiting milk.

Also, breast milk comes out the perfect temperature. Pretty hard to due that with pumped milk that you have to carry around in a cooler so it doesn't spoil and then heat to the perfect temperature for the hungry baby who is screaming all the while. In a mall.

Also, the chemistry of the milk changes from beginning to end to conform perfectly with the baby's needs. The 'fore' or first milk that comes out has a higher water content for the more thirsty baby, since s/he hasn't fed/drank for a while. The 'hind' or last milk has more of the fat content to help her/him gain weight. The baby only drinks as much of this hind milk as s/he needs. You can't achieve this with a bottle of expressed milk.

Breastfeeding reduces gas in the baby's tummy, which can be painful, especially when they are very small and not as good at getting their wind up.

Also, breastfeeding reduces the risk of bacteria in the milk since no storing of milk or sterilising of equipment is needed.

Also, not all women are able to express easily. The baby sucking triggers the 'letdown reflex' which makes the milk come out. A breastpump doesn't do this. You have to think about the baby, try and remember the smell of the baby, look at a picture of the baby, and so on. It still doesn't work as well as the actual baby triggering the reflex as nature honed it.

Also, pumping and feeding is more than twice the work of simply feeding. Kind of the last thing any new mother needs, wouldn't you agree?

Also, sitting under a blanket can be hot and uncomfortable, which is cruel to babies and mothers, obviously. And many babies simply will not continue their feed if they aren't comfortable.

Also, don't you think telling mothers to 'cover up' is kind of problematic? Is a handkerchief okay, or do you want to keep going until only our eyes are showing? Because who gets to be in charge of deciding which women cover up and when we are adequately hidden?

Also, why are you grossed out by a baby eating? If I don't like your table manners, can I shove *you* under a blanket? Or send you off to a washroom?

So, is it really so hard for you to turn your head?

@chefmatt & agoodshinkickin

I'd like to point out that in British Columbia (and Ontario as well, not sure about other provinces) it's legal for women to be topless anywhere men can be topless. So while you're free to have your opinion that breasts in public constitute flashing or tackiness, your opinion is just... opinion.

@katie

Thought experiment for you:

"If I don't want to see a fat woman in a bikini, don't I have that right as well? ESPECIALLY at a public pool. I would never subject others to it, and frankly, that's why they make one-piece bathing suits with skirts. It's not about seeing bikinis as obscene, I just find it kind of gross. Sure others may not and that's your preference, but honestly, I don't see why asking fat women in bikinis to cover up (which many don't) is really that big a deal.)

See how wrong that sounds?

How about I just don't really like it. It doesnt make me uncomfortable, but I do think there are certain things that should try to be kept relatively private. And while it doesnt bother me when women breast feed, when they take absolutely no precaution to cover it up even a bit, it annoys me. If its not necessary because of things like breast pumps, why do it? For me it's more about modesty. I don't want to look at boobs while I eat, personal preference. Perhaps what you are saying Nimue applies for some, but I just don't like it, and I know others who feel the same way. I would never even think about doing something like that while people are in a restaurant, or even out in public. That being said, there should be an area for breastfeeding moms so avoid this problem to begin with.

katie said: "I am confused. If i don't want to see a woman breastfeeding, don't I have that right as well? ESPECIALLY in restaurants."

I'm a vegetarian. I don't want to see you eating meat in a restaurant; I think it's absolutely disgusting. Does that mean you have to stop? How is my nursing son any different? What if I don't like your hair color or your tattoos or piercings? Should we kick lesbians out of restaurants so their displays of affection don't ruin your meal?

"I don't want to look at boobs while I eat, personal preference."
I'm confused. What's the problem? You don't have to stare. Look away and forget about it.

Yay for these women! Wish I could have joined them.

I'm just waiting for someone to say something to me while I'm breastfeeding in public!!!!

For people who are grossed out by the sight of breast feeding in a restaurant, I'm pretty sure your concerns are misplaced. I ate out yesterday and found a nice long black hair in my salad. Now, THAT is gross.

Seriously, no one is forcing people to look at a breast feeding kid. You have the right not to look. It's not cigarette smoke, lol.

The only thing making it "tacky" is the fact that people aren't used to it. Once it becomes more acceptable, more women will feel comfortable doing it in public spaces and in turn everybody will be more comfortable.

Yes, Katie, are you actually reading what people are posting especially for your benefit?

Turn your head. Don't look if you don't like it.

As a British-Canadian breastfeeding mum, go sisters, go!

Katie:

Didn't you read anything some of the others wrote about the problems involved with pumping? If you don't want to see it, don't look. Simple as that.

I doubt any of the breastfeeding moms you've seen have walked up and shoved a boob directly in your face. It's not that difficult to not to look. In fact, I think it requires more effort to actually keep looking than to look away.

That being said, there should be an area for breastfeeding moms so avoid this problem to begin with.

okay, other folks said it.

and, look, again, breast pumps were not created for modesty as other posters pointed out. they were created for convenience - ie, you can't take your baby to work all day, so you use a breast pump so there's milk with the other partner or day care folks to give the child. breast pumps were not created for the sake of keeping new mothers appropriately "modest."

btw, i love the use of the word modest, here... as if breastfeeding were a vain act or something.

thank you rhowan, valerie, nestra, nimue, spike, etc.

it's so weird for me... because i don't get out that much and when i do, it's mostly within my li'l martial arts community, where public breastfeeding is just a given (and we have a lot of new mothers)... so seeing so much disgust and tackiness and whatnot bandied about regarding breastfeeding strikes me as just weird.

what about folks who wear stripes and plaids. that shit should be illegal.

as far as "why," nimue, i think you're on point. if a woman isn't displaying her body for public consumption, then it's just "gross."

I would never advocate kicking anyone out of a restaurant for any reason whatsoever. Unless of course they are causing harm to others or something like that. So, that's not what I said. I said simply that I don't personally like looking at it, and that I think modesty perhaps should dictate that it's not just out there for everyone to see. However, you are right, I don't look, bc I have that option. And actually that law about anywhere a man can be topless a woman can as well applies in NY state. I wonder if that was something that more women practiced we wouldn't have any issues regarding sexuality and breasts and/or breast feeding whatsoever because people would be used to it.

Katie: READ what others are saying to you. Please.

It doesnt make me uncomfortable, but I do think there are certain things that should try to be kept relatively private."

Really. You think you personally get to choose what things should be kept "relatively private"?

If its not necessary because of things like breast pumps, why do it?

Go back and read Valerie's response. It *is* necessary for most women. And it's more convenient. Much more.

For me it's more about modesty.

Modesty?! Are you seriously using that term on a feminist group? Are you not aware that women have been told to cover up in the name of modesty forever already. Where does it end? Don't show your breast to feed your kid (which, btw is actually allowed in Muslim countries - funny how you're more concerned about my modesty than they are). What's next? Never show cleavage? Never wear pants that cling?

I don't want to look at boobs while I eat, personal preference.

Then don't look. Or, as so many of you people like to suggest to me, go eat in the bathroom. I'm sure it'll be much more comfortable for you. Or, I know, it's not necessary for you to eat out. Stay home and cook. No one to offend you there.

An area for breastfeeding moms

Listen, I'm in favour of a nice comfy place to nurse or express, but I have the right to feed my kid wherever and whenever I like. DO NOT try to tell me that I *must* go do it in a corner somewhere. I will not be banished because some asshole prude can't handle a glimpse of my breast.

Grow up.

I'm just waiting for someone to say something to me while I'm breastfeeding in public!!!!

But, believe it or not, while sitting in my own living room a guest of mine had the nerve to say, "Do you really have to do that? It's pretty disgusting."

I couldn't believe it. I told her that it was my house and my baby's too. He eats wherever the two of us are most comfortable, and if she didn't like it, she could leave.

She did. And she never came back.

Sorry to go off topic. That was just my most controversial breastfeeding moment ever and I felt the need to share. :-)

I would much rather a woman breastfeed than have her baby scream while she looks for an "appropriate" place.

i was reading some of the comments on one of the links. one that kept coming up was "what was so important that you had to go to the mall! stay at home and nurse your baby". most of these comments were from men.

those men just don't understand what it is to be home alone with baby 24/7. not only do you miss out on adult conversation, but you still need to get out and do stuff!

if women are to stay at home-when do these men expect them to go grocery shopping? what about getting stuff for baby? when exactly are mothers supposed to do this? are these men going to go out and do the shopping? i can hear it now " but honey, what's the difference between Lansinoh lanolin and hand lotion with lanolin? can't you use that on your nipples?"

i've been nursing our daughter for 15 months now. i've been fortunate in that no one has ever said anything about me nursing when i'm out and about.

Honesty, I'm torn on the breastfeeding issue. I have no problem with women breastfeeding in public and don't think it's right that they are shamed out of doing it because people are squeemish around breasts. Infants require nutrition, if a woman decides breastfeeding is the way to go then no one should stop her. In a restaurant too, if the staff don't have a problem with it and the mother isn't acting obscenely (for example, standing on a chair screaming, "look at my milk-filled boooooob!") then I don't think it should even be an issue.

However. There is a certain degree of appropriateness in the situation and frankly, a retail store is *not* the place to breastfeed. I don't think it should be allowed near the merchandise. It's one thing to sit on a bench or in a chair near the fitting room and quite another to stand in the middle of an aisle, fingering blouses while breastfeeding. It's not the place to do it.

I have worked in retail and while yes, there are hundreds of mothers out there without any trouble discretely breastfeeding and not expelling milk on product, there are still those who do. There is nothing quite as disgusting and agravating as finding bodily fluid stains on merchandise because it is: 1, preventable and 2, extremely inconsiderate. It's a small blessing that at H&M you'd be damaging out a $30 shirt and not a $300 shirt.
But I still don't think it should be done there.

Lottie, I can't believe your story!!! That's outrageous :). I've been glared at and sighed loudly around, but nobody's said anything out loud yet.

FYI 50 state summary of breastfeeding laws:
http://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/breast50.htm

Also, protected federally if on federal property.

I probably should have mentioned that the guest was a relative (in law) and there was already a certain level of tension between us. It still took a lot of nerve, though.

Um, how, exactly, is all this breastmilk getting on stores' products, Marteani?

No myths please. I breastfeed my son every day, so I will not believe any 'it spills all over the place' rubbish.

(sits down, crosses legs, and waits expectantly)

Hmmm... I'm wondering the same thing, Valerie. I breastfed my son regularly for nearly a year, and never once got milk on anything. It's actually a very tidy way to feed a baby, in my experience. ;-)

Congrats to the Vancouver women for standing up - or nursing in - for their rights!

It is one of the saddest moments of my life, nursing in the cold car in the middle of winter, waiting for the engine to warm up and the baby to finish so we could go home.

Nestra, what an awful story! I am so sorry that happened to you.

Katie, I'm sorry if you don't like women breastfeeding in public, but yeah. Look away or walk away. Don't try to tell me that I either shouldn't feed my kids or should make them and myself uncomfortable because you're bothered.

I nurse my twins in public all the time, sometimes both at once. I've gotten lots of looks, ranging from delighted to disgusted, but only one person has ever said anything outright negative, snapping "cover yourself!" as she walked by my table. When that happened, I stood up and walked over to her table, still nursing my daughter, and proceeded to inform her of the laws protecting my right to nurse in public and of her options if she didn't like it.

Wow--just... wow. I'm rather horrified to see anyone reading a feminist website complaining about women breastfeeding in public.

Nimue, I think you're spot-on in your analysis.

As I type this, by the way, I'm in my office at work, having brought my 5 month old with me. I'm wearing a Maya Wrap and nursing him as he naps.

It's not a matter of spilling. A former manager of mine worked in a maternity store and has one woman in particular banned from the store who would breastfeed in the fitting room and on two separate occasions, used merchandise to wipe herself/her baby off afterward. She would then leave the soiled merchandise in the fitting room to be found after she left when the salespeople did sweeps to pick up discarded clothing.

Were breastfeeding "accidents" a huge problem in the store? No. As far as I know there were only a very small handful of people who caused a problem. There was a bigger problem with people changing babies in the fitting rooms and leaving the soiled diapers behind. But for the same reason outside food/drink is generally banned from stores: you can't watch everyone like a hark so ere on the side of caution. I think there's probably a middle ground in there somewhere (such as not feeding in the aisles themselves), but I still think it's inappropriate to do it in amongst the merchandise.
As I said, for every 100 considerate women there's always one who'd rather used the nearest pair of jeans than bring her own towel.

By the way, kendraj, thanks for that link. It contains some very useful and interesting information. I've been considering a post about breastfeeding and will definitely refer to the link you provided.

Thanks again! :-)

It's not a matter of spilling. A former manager of mine worked in a maternity store and has one woman in particular banned from the store who would breastfeed in the fitting room and on two separate occasions, used merchandise to wipe herself/her baby off afterward. She would then leave the soiled merchandise in the fitting room to be found after she left when the salespeople did sweeps to pick up discarded clothing.

Were breastfeeding "accidents" a huge problem in the store? No. As far as I know there were only a very small handful of people who caused a problem. There was a bigger problem with people changing babies in the fitting rooms and leaving the soiled diapers behind. But for the same reason outside food/drink is generally banned from stores. I think there's probably a middle ground in there somewhere (such as not feeding in the aisles themselves), but I still think it's inappropriate to do it in amongst the merchandise.
As I said, for every 100 considerate women there's always one who'd rather used the nearest pair of jeans than bring her own towel.

There is an assumption that the very real retail fear is that "something will squirt," and it's not. The fear is of the people who are willfully destructive of product. In a high volume store you will get hundreds and hundreds of people a day, and at least three or four of them are going to damage something, usually with food or bodily fluids, because they don't care that someone has to clean it up and because they can often yell at the manager enough that they don't have to pay for the now unsalable product.

Marteani:

You started your objection by saying you were torn on the breastfeeding issue. Since the the problems you described really have nothing at all to do with breastfeeding, I don't see how it even factors into the discussion.

The woman who allegedly wiped herself with merchandise was rude, but the same could have happened with a bottle-fed baby or a kid eating a candy bar for that matter.

It's completely unrelated to the topic, so I don't understand presenting it as grounds for being "torn" on the issue of breastfeeding.

I don't think it's completely unrelated to the topic. This issue of why the store told the woman not the breastfeed is ludicrous. Breastfeeding shouldn't be considered offensive and it's not something you are forced to watch if you don't like it.

But I'm not necessarily against banning breastfeeding in a retail store in the same way food and drink are banned, or taking merchandise into bathrooms, or changing infants in fitting rooms or on the retail floor (all rules that exist because of aforementioned problems, although usually the rules for beverages is that they must be covered or have a lid, otherwise you have to throw them out). Now, many stores have seating areas, so I could see exceptions being made. And there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think a business should be vilified if they ask a woman to, for example, please not breastfeed in the aisles and instead use one of the seating areas.

That of course is not what happened in this scenario. What happened here appears to be a pretty callous move on the part of the H&M employee. But can you see that I'm understanding why they wouldn't want it in the store or certain parts of the store?

Actually, Marteani, I find your argument utterly unconvincing. You have still not made clear how *breastfeeding* itself gets merchandise dirty.

Also, what would you give people the power to do if a mother went ahead and (shock horror) fed her baby in the aisles anyway? Throw her out? Even against her and the child's human rights? Would you advocate her rights being limited? Who gets to define these limitations?

How would you have people handle a 'defiantly' aisle-feeding mother? Physical force? Should the physical force be against the baby for defiantly not spitting out that breast? Come on, let's hear your ideas on handling the logistics of restricting women's rights and freedoms.

I'm guilty of defiant aisle-feeding. On my last ever trip to the Home Depot, I needed the price of a set of patio furniture checked. Three bored looking employees went in turn to check on the price... and never came back. When the woman at the customer service desk announced that if the price wasn't marked then she certainly didn't know how much it cost, I sat my oldest kids down on the floor and politely said I would feed the youngest on the counter while she found out. She looked disgusted when I breastfed, but after waiting 45 minutes for a price check, she managed to find out a price before one breast was emptied.

I probably didn't help the breastfeeding cause that day, but the customer service was so horrendous that I was glad to have something to use as leverage.

After the first kid, I became very open with breastfeeding in public. My thought was that the more women seen breastfeeding, the less stigma there would be for future moms.

*Eating* by itself doesn't make merchandise dirty either. Nor does taking merchandise into a bathroom with you so it doesn't get taken away as discarded outside. I have already made it clear that it's not the act itself that is the problem; it is people who willfully damage merchandise. It would be nice if everyone wore a little sign that indicated if they were one of those people but sadly life is not set up that way.

Generally (in my experience) people who refuse to follow the rules of the store are watched to make sure nothing happens or, if the customer is causing an active problem, they are asked to leave. An example: high traffic bookstores that have cafes and problems with people spilling drinks will either ask people to leave their drinks in the cafe or watch them to make sure they aren't going to find a book dripping in coffee later.

I also find it aggravating if not insulting that you think I am saying we should limit women's rights and freedoms. There are many "courtesy rules" that are in place to protect stores. I've mentioned most of them. They include not taking merchandise into bathrooms so that one does not find "used" magazines in the men's rooms.