I love me some blues, both the old stuff and the newer stuff it has influenced. I listen to a lot of Led Zeppelin. Lyrics are usually about evil demon women, and the band members' behavior towards women has basically been atrocious.

I love me some Led Zepplin...but I gotta say Dusty Springfield...I love her songs and voice...but sometimes I'm listening to her lyrics...just make ya go..."no Dusty don't do it"...

Glad we brought this series back...

I listen to a LOT of heavy metal (and proudly refer to myself as a metalhead). Some bands have blatantly sexist lyrics or talk about killing or harming women. These are not in the majority, but they exist.
I listen to a lot of foreign language metal so I won't have to bother with lyrics (I hate lyrics in almost every genre). Also, depending upon the band, you usually can't understand the lyrics anyway, hah.
But I definitely would NOT say metal is an anti-feminist genre. There's a whole discussion of this in the documentary "Metal: a Headbanger's Journey".
Metal sometimes seeks to expose that which is unpleasant, and critique it or speak out against it. There's a lot of feminist potential there.

I wrote a eerily similar post for the community page of Feministing on my enjoyment of the James Bond franchise, but it was never put up.

Ah, I admit to a rather unhealthy collection of emo, and while the majority of it consists of whiny white boys singing about how the drugs/evil girl/booze made them do whatever dumb shit they did (as I rock out silently to Alkaline Trio at my desk), there is a tiny minority who are beautiful and fun for the sake of music and artiness. Thank you Arcade Fire.

Corey, it was put up (currently on page 8).

I know, 'cause I read it!

Here:

http://community.feministing.com/2008/07/my-anti-feminist-pleasure.html

Filthy hip hop - Ludacris, What's Your Fantasy being a particular favourite example. This post made me revisit that Chris Rock skit about women and hip hop - if you've not seen it, the particularly relevant bit starts at 2:45 (although the first couple of minutes are also very funny)...

http://www.feministing.com/archives/009845.html#comments

Justin Timberlake. I know, it's totally lame for a grown woman to enjoy his music, since it's made for teenage girls, but I do. I like to dance, and I have to admit he is kinda cute. Some of his songs make me cringe though, so I don't listen to those songs and only listen to the ones that have less-sexist lyrics ("sexy back", anyone?) and try to ignore the parts that I don't like.

Also, the Stray Cats and Brian Setzer Orchestra (no relation) aren't exactly pro-feminist.

However, for the most part, most of the stuff I listen to is either feminine (David Bowie), pro-feminine (Incubus, Spiraling), feminist (Alanis Morissette, Melissa Etheridge, Alicia Keys), or doesn't deal with relationships/gender roles at all (Yes, Jethro Tull, various lyric-less orchestral, techno, or trance music).

Ah, you've said it. I love raggaeton, but definitely feel guilty about it.

Judging by the very friendly and inquisitive traffic from Feministing to my blog ( http://cnbcsucks.wordpress.com ), I would say I am an (un)feminist guilty pleasure, at least for a few of you very nice, superintelligent, and may I say attractive ladies. But then again, I am a misogynist-feminist so I don't think I am really (un)feminist. In any case, at least today, I have done the impossible and created the only blog in the world where both feminists and financially-minded perverts visit and click at least a few times. I really do love Feministing! Your pal, CNBC Sucks (and it still does)

There's an old Britney Spears song with the chorus "I was born to make you happy" (from when she was all bubblegum pop). The title is vomit-inducing... but damn it's so easy to sing along.

A lot of male-dominated 90s indie rock.

A lot of old country -- although I sort of think stuff like Buck Owens' "Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am" is feminist, if only in the sense that it would be damn righteous for a woman to sing and is respectably explicit for country.

Biggie Smalls. That fellatio sound effect shit at the end of "Respect" almost destroys the song -- but only almost.

Bob Dylan! It makes me nauseous that people think it's okay to love "Just Like a Woman" to the point that it's one of the man's biggest songs. That's hardly all, though; I find his lyrics rife with antifeminism.

Leonard Cohen. But probably in part because he is just such a lech.

The Rolling Stones. Obviously. God, why are their most misogynistic songs often their best ones?

The misogynist lyrics to the Beatles song Run For Your Life absolutely appall me. But I'll be damned if that song isn't catchy as hell.

I'm so happy I can appreciate music without lyrics (classical, techno, etc.)! :D

Also, I like some music sung in languages I don't know but at the back of my mind there's always "what if this is sexist and I don't know it? will I embarass myself by recommending this track in a thread where maybe someone else does know the language?"

There's one more small category: music with other singling. Some musicians incorporate bird songs, whale songs, etc. into their tunes. "Save the Whales (Club Mix)" by Silent Harmony is a good example. Even though the actual singing is slower, the techno parts add a pace I can dance to. :)

I just love crime novels--not just Raymond Chandler and James M. Cain, either. I go beyond the surface, and have read pretty much every author who was ever published on Black Lizard and Hard Case, and a ton of new authors as well. I have to admit--not very women friendly. With only a few exceptions that I can think of, the main characters are men, as are most of the major players. There will usually be one or two female characters, and nine times out of ten, she'll be cruel or helpless. Even some of the more contemporary novels with multi-dimensional female characters still don't really do much with them.
I mean, Sean Doolittle's The Clean-Up is one of my top ten favorite books published this decade--the plotting, the characterization, the twists, the way minor characters are fleshed out in only a few words, the inner life of the main players--it's an almost perfect novel except for the fact there's two female characters--the ex-wife and the battered woman. And, grated, the battered woman is hardly a victim, and the exploration of her mindset is very well done, but it's still depressing that it's an almost entirely male universe.

It's a good song, it just has a questionable title.

Opera. The storylines, I know, I know...but the singing and the compositions are just so damn good, and very little modern stuff comes close.

Foolishly put the wrong URL in earlier...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9A2I-X7b-w

And totally with you on the Stones, everybodyever, although listening to Brown Sugar is a deeply disturbing experience that I just didn't get as a child...

I guess I am missing the gene that allows me to disregard misogyny is music. If I notice something anti-feminist, it comes off my playlist. That's it. I also don't listen to artists I know were wife abusers, etc, even if their music doesn't reflect it.

er... that should be misogyny IN music not misogyny IS music... although the latter sometimes seems to be sickeningly true.

Sing it with me: I love Rock 'n' Roll! I love love love grunge and all its little post- and pseudo- and metal-grungy children. Candlebox and Caroline's Spine are consistently at the top of my playlist. This may actually be one of the relatively less misogynist places in music, but that doesn't make it immune. I'm currently listening to Possum Kingdom, by the Toadies, and while nobody really agrees on what the damn thing's about (I vote for vampires, but mainly because that's way less creepy than many of the alternatives), I'm pretty sure it ain't feminist.

Actually, the most misogynist part of my music collection is the lack of female artists. There just aren't that many I like. But most of the bands I listen to aren't all that (blatantly) awful, feminism-wise.

Ayla - hear, hear.

Personally, the "what's your favorite (un)feminist pleasure"?, and the following comments, are always my least favorite topic on feministing.

pumpkin, maybe I don't remember all the lyrics, but I don't think "What's Your Fantasy" is misogynistic at all...It's just really sexual, but it seems to be all about wanting to know what her fantasy is, then he suggests a bunch of things...

If we're talkin' un-feminist music here, most people think of Metal. Which sucks because it's basically my life. (and no, I'm NOT a brain-dead hesher!)
Some of the imagery is pretty bad. . .uh, HORRIBLE in fact. But, there are SOOOO many good bands out there today. My favorite is Genghis Tron. Dig this interview where they mock said imagry
http://www.metalinjection.net/tv/view/460/episode-408---between-the-dillinger-horse

La Sista is another great female reggaeton artist.

Definitely worth checking out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sVrqLs2Z-M

I totally love the blues, and a ton of it is anti-feminist. BUT, I also love Josephine Baker, Ma Rainey, Bessie Smith - and those ladies got some good blues going on. Love it.

But overall, I'm just a music lover. Of course, I can recognize some of the mysogony and stuff, but music to me is more than that. So many songs bring back times in my life that i just loved and so I am more apt to just listen and love it.

But I don't listen to rap that's all about gang banging and busting up women and calling them hos and whores and all kinds of things I cannot even figure out until I ask my sister who is all about the rap music. I don't like the blatant stuff.

And even though they weren't talking about music: heck yeah for James Bond as well as Raymond Chandler. old movies in fact. But I still love them.

4 words: Skeet, skeet, skeet motherfucker.

That and Lil Wayne...I'm embarrassed to even print some of the stuff I'm singing along with every morning. Trust that it involves a lot of bitches wanting dick.

i registered just so i can comment on this! my favorite reggaeton artist is calle 13! he's hilarious. as far as guilty pleasures outside of the reggaeton realm is judge dread (nastiest lyrics ever, but i'm fan of ska) and good ol' 2 live crew.

28 comments, and I don't see anything about the Pussycat Dolls! Wow!

Pussycat Dolls are my guiltiest pleasure. Terrible, women-objectifying, hyper-sexualized lyrics, offensive on a great many levels, but catchy as hell- set to the grooviest, sexy danceable beats. I feel a little sheepish about how much they make me want to dance.

::sighs:: Reality television...particularly The Bachelor. I think it's a symptom of not growing up with a TV or something, I'm so enamored with bad, bad programming. :/

i absolutely love jay z and nelly and st. lunatics. some fucked up lyrics at times (though not any worse than any other genre, IMHO), but that shit makes me move!

Kira - For some reason the other day I remembered the first (Un)Feminist Guilty Pleasures post, and it had been so long since that infamous post that I figured/hoped the series had been dropped.

At least this one posits a critical question. To answer it: while boycotting won't alleviate the issues that produce these lyrics, it does make the lyrics less profitable. I spend my money on positive music, and check out new artists/songs on YouTube (Googling the lyrics) before I spend any more money on them. It's a bit of extra work on my end, but those "catchy tunes" make the misogyny of the lyrics that much more insidious.

Moriath,
I'm glad to see your comment. This comment thread is bumming me out in a major, major way. I'm glad I'm not alone.

As a male metalhead, I have to say that there are amazing female-fronted metal bands out there, e.g. Nightwish and Epica. For instance, the metal/opera concept album "Days of Rising Doom" by Aina features lyrics and arrangements done entirely by a female opera singer. It's great!

I don't know if I have an unfeminist guilty pleasure. I read a lot of law and philosophy, which tends to be anti-feminist in essence, but as I generally disagree with it, I can't say as I find it to be a guilty pleasure. I guess the most unfeminist thing is my unfeminist (usually male) friends that sometimes make unkind or stupid remarks, and I don't always have the gumption to call them on it.

I am also glad to see Moriath and Kira's comments. I don't even mind the artists being named so much, as much as I mind this statement:

"Maybe you have created your own unique definition of what it means to be feminist that includes all of these guilty pleasures (and much more)."

Sorry, but no. Being a feminist does not necessarily preclude liking or listening to certain music (and vice versa), but let's please not give the impression that you can bend the definition of feminist to include whatever you want it to. It does have parameters - and no, I'm not talking about Lil Wayne or the Pussycat Dolls, but it's a slippery slope to use the phrase "unique version of what it means to be feminist".

Zero Punctuation. I'm not a gamer, but I still tune in every week to watch a video where he rips something apart. Not so much anti-women, but he, admittedly, tends to go straight for the gay jokes.

I've resisted a lot of unfeminist music, though. Misogynist lyrics gets a song booted from my playlist. Won't touch a lot of rap or hip-hop for exactly that reason.

gleea, I have the same addiction. My excuse is that I'm really into Anthropology....

The problem with trying to be a purist about music is that music is still very much a man's world, so most of the bands that aren't blatantly misogynist are usually subtly misogynist. Truly feminist music is really hard to find, especially if you're into something even remotely outside of the mainstream. Personally, I try to bring my feminism into my music but I doubt it's obvious, just as much as I doubt I have much of a fanbase, and I'm still working in a field that is dominated by white men who continually make it clear they don't recognize their own privilege while occasionally paying lip service to the idea that there should be more female musicians.

"The problem with trying to be a purist about music is that music is still very much a man's world, so most of the bands that aren't blatantly misogynist are usually subtly misogynist. Truly feminist music is really hard to find, especially if you're into something even remotely outside of the mainstream."

Just curious, how do you count the music without vocals? On one hand it's not misogynist, OTOH it has no positive messages either (what with the lack of anyone saying anything).

I actually found this "guilty pleasures" post valuable because it pertains to an issue that I have struggled with and still do on occasion which is trying to live as a feminist while still using or being attracted to some antifeminist things. This dichotomy was perfectly illustrated a few years ago when I found myself walking out of my college bookstore with a copy of "Bitch" under one arm and "Maxim" under the other. When I first learned about feminism and became aware and started trying to incorporate it in my life I felt a lot of guilt and like I couldn't call myself a feminist because I wore makeup, read fashion mags and listened to songs with antifeminist lyrics. I think the image of the strict everything is "black and white perfect feminist" (though largely false) scares off a lot of women. I believe as a feminist I am constantly evolving but I am at the point now where there are some things that offend me to the point where they hold no appeal and others that I still find attractive despite some/many troublesome aspects. The difference for me between my pre-feminist days and now is that I can recognize what bothers me and why and not just absorb it. I also make sure to support and include many feminist products, activities, people, etc. in my life. (My purchases of Bitch have far exceeded my purchases of Maxim) I may reach a point where anything antifeminist has no appeal but until then it helps to know that I am not the only one. Oh, a few of my guilty pleasures are Project Runway, stilettos and Charles Bukowski.

Noooo not reggaeton! It's so true though. I'm Australian but when I went to Chile on exchange I was often going out and dancing to Reggaeton, and I have an extensive collection on my iPod too. Chilean women, and most latino girls I met over there, all seem to hate it, but us foreigners couldn't deny our love for that repetitive albeit sexy and danceable beat. Me and my exchange buddies were often discussing our torn emotions about our love of reggaeton and our hate of what a lot of it stands for.. so you're not alone!

There are some other female reggaeton artists out there, and there are many many reggaeton songs which don't rotate around misogynist ideas "Pies Izquierdo" is one, as well as "Si supieras" by Hector. Lots of them are quite romantic too, but still there's no denying that for me saying "Me gusta reggaeton" often meets with raised eyebrows in South America, especially after they see how strongly I feel about other gender issues.

Charity, I totally agree.

I'm surprised this thread has so little dissent. I guess it's making me realize the wide reach of the "fun feminists". I can imagine this exact comments thread on some "supposedly liberal doodz" blog: "I'm not sexist, BUT......"

Bzuh!

Mina, I actually know a lot of musicians who write songs without lyrics and even though you could never tell it from their songs (because, as you say, they have no lyrics), I know them personally and am often quite shocked at the things they will say in front of me or publicly without a second thought. It really sucks, and I try to confront it when possible, but if I didn't listen to their music, I wouldn't really have anything I liked to listen to.

Er, which is not to say that it is all clueless males. I've met some pretty awesome, likely-feminist women through our music and since there are so few of us, we tend to bond pretty quickly and solidly. Which raises an interesting thought about how feminism can actually thrive in an environment that is nominally unfeminist.

I agree with Cicada

For me it comes with if I did not like everything that was antifeminist there would be a lot of things that I love that I would have to hate. *old movies, a crapton of music, books, soaps, makeup, etc* I won't stop loving these things...I recognize why I wear make up, but I still like to...I'm not gonna stop reading or listening to music and if anyone tries to take away my Casablanca or An Affair to Remember I'll go balistic...but I recognize the antifeminism in these things, but enjoying things doesn't make me a bad feminist...it just makes me human.

Look. I'm sorry for being honest. I can only speak for myself, I know I'm not perfect. I never claimed to be perfect. If I cut myself off from anything that wasn't feminist, I'd have to cut myself off from society completely, which is too depressing to think about. Being a feminist is depressing enough already.

I know I'm a new commenter (long time lurker though) so it's probably presumptuous for me to say this, but I'm especially disturbed by the "fun feminist" tags being tossed around, because that's one step removed from "not a real feminist."

Kate and others -

I meant no offense to any poster in particular. We're all in this together. What upsets me is that post like this...I don't know. We read the blogs...we fume inside our own heads...we rehearse inside our minds the perfect public takedown of the misogynistic dudes around us...But when it comes to the things we dance to in the club, and the songs that we pay to download on our iPod - those are the tangible actions. Hours of lurking on feminist websites doesn't negate your public support (and defense!!!) of misogynist music. It's not about being perfect - I just wonder, if you won't be feminist on this, what will you be feminist for? Music is one of the main informants of our culture.

"I'm currently listening to Possum Kingdom, by the Toadies, and while nobody really agrees on what the damn thing's about (I vote for vampires, but mainly because that's way less creepy than many of the alternatives), I'm pretty sure it ain't feminist."

Wow, I never even realized it, but now I'm listening to Possum Kingdom, and it IS totally about vampires! It was always sort of nonsensical to me, but I loved the music. Now it makes total sense!

As more my unfeminist guilty pleasures, they're all over the place. I consume way too much art, movies, music, TV, podcasts, standup comedy, and I just like what I like. I don't even feel any guilt about though. I like what I like, and it doesn't make me any worse of a person.

That just is how it is. We're going to consume things today that will be deemed incredibly offensive by future standards. We all have to learn to live with that fact.

Yes, I too admit to liking reggaeton. For the most part though, I boycott stuff that's anti-feminist. It helps that I don't speak a lot of Spanish, so most of the lyrics go over my head. High-five to whoever upthread touted Nightwish- beautiful stuff.
My other unfeminist guilty pleasure is the Anita Blake novels by Laurell K Hamilton. I've become utterly disenchanted with them because they've progressed from some fairly feminist ideas and an ass-kicking female protagonist, to bad soft-core porn, incoherent plots, and the hero now spends way more time on her back than kicking ass. But I still check the new ones out from the library.

Serge Gainsbourg and ye-ye (in particular Brigitte Bardot before she became a psychotic racist).

Roman Polanksi....

Yeah. I'm going to have to go ahead and reiterate my "BOO *thumbs down*" to this topic, as I did the first time.

Yes, we all like something that's not perfectly feminist. Why do we have to have a post about it on a feminist blog? You don`t have to pat yourself on the back for it.

Sorry to be a dour, humorless feminist, but uh, I am. I`ve been active in this community for a long while now, but I find myself drifting away lately because of stuff like this.

I don't think people are really patting themselves on the back, I think that we are just acknowledging that this exists. I think that so long as there is an awareness, it's not that big of a deal. I also think that the best way to promote feminism in our society is not by boycotting certain aspects of pop culture but by discussing these ideas calmly and rationally with other people, perhaps ABOUT these things in pop culture. Making a difference is never going to work if we cloister ourselves off from the society we are trying to change.

I dont find this thread as offensive as some. I have noticed that through people mentioning their guilty pleasures other suggestions about bands to listen to in that same genre but with better messages are coming out and that is nothing but good. Also, i just don't understand why, if you don't agree with a position and you know you're not going to like the thread you can't just avoid it? Feminism is an evolution and making others feel guilty may not quite but the right way to help them advance.

I have always like avril lavigne she's not really anti-feminist but she's just not feminist

Dare I say it?????? Kylie Minogue... Not her latest release but her earlier stuff with all the skimpy outfits, bum wiggling and lyrics about getting your man. I listen to it when I do housework because I hate housework and the beat keeps me going. Pathetic excuse, I know. Oh, the shame... lol

MzBitca commented at July 22, 2008 7:31 AM: "I dont find this thread as offensive as some. I have noticed that through people mentioning their guilty pleasures other suggestions about bands to listen to in that same genre but with better messages are coming out and that is nothing but good."

Yeah! :)

Worhol. Ha ha... get it?

Alright, bad taste. But really, this is a patriarchy, but I'm not going to feel guilty about enjoying art. The majority of the art is going to be tainted with that, but I didn't make it that way, so why should I feel bad? If I limited myself to appreciating art that only contained a non-patriarchal message, pretty much all of Shakespeare would be out. The Louvre would be off limits. Opera? Ha. You know how many women the menz off in those things? But they sing so beautifully about it, that I'm just left feeling that it's an awful shame that men waste so much talent on so much self-involved wankery.

I think it's worth examining the ways in which men weave their horseshit into cotton, just to make sure that we aren't being duped into thinking that the rapes/murders/beatings/domination/etc. of women is the beautiful part. That's the ugly misogynist self-indulgent power-tripping puerile smear on what was otherwise a nice thing and not -- as we are often told by gallerists -- the passionate loci of the artist's experiential expression of human truth.

Nelly Furtado's Promiscuous Girl. I'm in love with that song. Also, Reggaeton.

I Kissed A Girl by Kat Perry. Its such a bad song. "I kissed a girl and I liked it, I hope my boyfriend don't mind it." And many other things she says like "Your my experimental game" and "Don't mean I'm in love tonight" but I can't help it! I like that song! she says some good things about girls being so kissable and soft and stuff and thats what got me.

So the only choice is to like only feminist stuff or nothing at all? That sounds awful and ridiculous to me. There are plenty of ways to like this stuff and still be outspokenly feminist about it - like pointing out to your friends who like the same things the times that women are being objectified and saying, "That really makes me feel uncomfortable" and having a conversation with them about it, like I do.

Putting yourself in a little feminist bubble isn't going to change the world either, and you might be surprised where you can find feminist things in otherwise unfeminist or anti-feminist places. Shouldn't we be encouraging the good things too, rather than just ragging on (or refusing to even look at) the bad? That's something that continually alienates me from the current strains of feminism - this idea that if we just keep reacting to what's already there, someone will eventually get the message and some change will eventually happen.

I don't listen to any music. Nor do I watch any movies or TV shows, read any books or magazines, or visit any websites. Not even this one, because sometimes trolls come here and say unfeminist things. Oh, and I don't look at billboards or other advertisements. And I don't talk to anyone until they've been screened by a neutral intermediary.

Seriously, though--I'm a fan of old-school rap and I think the [u]Sue Barton, Student Nurse[/u] book series is awesome.

I understand the concern of Kira, nerdalert and others. I wonder whether it's just as much because of the unfortunate name of the topic as it is because of the specific comments here.

For the most part, the commenters here seem to me not only to be commenting on identifiable misogyny and sexism in the music they like but also, more importantly, to be scouring the music they like and wondering where some could exist. I think the commenters have turned the topic thread into a pretty healthy critique of their own tastes, and I think it's ridiculous not to examine one's own tastes and perspectives, as innocent as we might think they are. It gives us the opportunity to point out potential problems and for us to notice those mentioned by others, problems we might otherwise have overlooked.

Because really, what's the alternative? Would y'all rather we all only listened to Bikini Kill in the first place and never discussed potential problems in that music, either? (I think there remain plenty of feminist problems in the music of even those most outspoken feminists.) We all have different personal feminisms, obviously, and getting wind of others' helps a lot of us grapple with our own. (For instance, some commenters mentioned that their favorite musicians were female, which to me begs the question: but does that make liking them feminist?)

That said, I don't think the name of the topic thread -- "(Un)feminist Guilty Pleasures" -- gets at that at all. Frankly, I hate it. I think it undermines the critical element that the editors and that many commenters seem to think the topic should contain.

First of all, I'd imagine that a lot of us don't really feel guilty liking these things: For instance, I sure don't feel like a bad feminist for liking so many all-male 90s indie rock bands, but I do realize that such a dearth of women is a problem and that that makes my preference for such music unfeminist -- not antifeminist, maybe, but certainly unfeminist. It sounds like some of the metalheads in here feel the same way. And personally, I don't appreciate the suggestion that I should automatically feel guilty for liking something I personally consider unfeminist. Isn't feeling critical or conflicted more productive than outright guilt, anyway?

Second, what the fuck is with the apple? Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm only coming up with one interpretation for it, and it makes me cringe.

Family Guy. I also love metal and Killswitch Engage is a guilty pleasure. They really like to go over the top live.

As a long-time lurker, I felt the urge to register and add my 2¢.

Keep in mind, if someone who was just learning about feminism was to look at these lists, she or he might find something she or he listens to and may start to listen to the lyrics more closely, and may start to recognize the unfeminist and anti-feminist messages therein. This is a definite plus, is it not?

Also, until we move to a matriarchal island unaffected by the rest of the world, we're participating in the patriarchy no matter how hard we fight against it. That doesn't make us funfeminists or bad feminists or not feminists at all. It just means that there's a reality that we can't really contend with on all levels. Each of us is only one person. And making someone feel bad about themselves or their idea of feminism is really just hurting the cause.

I disagree with Charity regarding the following:
"Sorry, but no. Being a feminist does not necessarily preclude liking or listening to certain music (and vice versa), but let's please not give the impression that you can bend the definition of feminist to include whatever you want it to. It does have parameters - and no, I'm not talking about Lil Wayne or the Pussycat Dolls, but it's a slippery slope to use the phrase 'unique version of what it means to be feminist'."

Whatever you may feel about the definition of feminist, there is a fluidity. And it happens in steps. Some people really dislike misogyny and patriarchy but still wear makeup or still do all the cooking in their house because that's the way they have always been. People can only change so much at once, and it's a different rate for everyone. I think it's unfair and counter-productive to dismiss people who may be at their particular comfort zone for change at the moment. That's only going to keep them from going further. We need to accept people at all stages of feminism because if we turn them away for being "not feminist enough," they may never come back.

I say this as someone early in the stages of feminism who gets enough flak from the non-feminists in my life. It's hard to challenge the patriarchy, and I need all the help I can get (I would imagine that applies for lots of people). Of course, I think we should educate people at every opportunity, but by disallowing them to create their own comfort level in steps, by discouraging their personal definitions, you may squash someone's real process of becoming a better feminist (which is what I hope we all want: to become better feminists...).

I love the beat in A Milli by Lil Wayne. I feel really sad when he says:

"I'm a venereal disease like a menstrual bleed"

Also Charity noted:

I've resisted a lot of unfeminist music, though. Misogynist lyrics gets a song booted from my playlist. Won't touch a lot of rap or hip-hop for exactly that reason.

Which doesn't leave alot of room for folks who are culturally attached to rap/hip-hop.

Super interesting topic that's on my mind all the time, thanks Miriam!

I'm a big hard-rock listener ... and, I will admit to liking Nickelback. Some of their music is downright scary ("Follow You Home"), some is just generally sexist ("Figured You Out"), some is unobjectionable "Rockstar". Almost all of it is catchy.

I also watch 24. Not particularly feminist or progressive ... but pretty addictive.

I listen to a ton of post-punk, industrial, goth rock (old school), gary numan... nothing really sexist going on there. For the most part the music I dig makes jabs at society on the whole, mocks mainstream religion, explores lust in a way that isn't anti-woman- among other things. It's not too terribly difficult to find great music when you step back from the mainstream.
And I do like some metal, but I gravitate toward bands/people like Otep (and Apocalyptica when they aren't covering Metallica).
When I hear something in a song that makes me cringe, I usually stop listening to the tune. If it's just bad enough to make me roll my eyes at it, it stays (like some of Duran Duran's goofy stuff).
So, yeah, no rap for me- it makes me angry. :)

I'm thinking one of my guiltiest pleasures is the album Oolooloo by the Pietasters. And the fact I love the movie Superbad.

I also grew fond of Al Swearengen on Deadwood.

Another female metal head here. I've definitely struggled with some of the bands I like having really misogynistic lyrics. However, the majority of bands I listen to have lyrics that while violent, about death, etc, aren't particularly misogynist.

And props again to whoever mentioned Nightwish and Epica. But for those of us who are looking for female-fronted bands with a much harsher and trashier sound, I'd recommend Sinergy, (unbelievably good), and Agonist. The former is my metal dream team, and the latter is not quite as technically good, but their singer is awesome, and the lyrics are about feminism, the evils of conservative politics, the flaws in the health care industry, etc. Think of it as hippy metal, lol.

I think Kira's feminist critique of this post is sound, but I am not sure where we should go with it. I used to identify as a radical feminist, and I tried to seek out out feminist/female-positive art as much as possible. (I also made a point of attacking those who didn't share my commitment to constructive art.) But eventually, after 5+ years, I began to resent the feminist in my head who was constantly dictating over the millions of other people in my mind who wanted to explore other ways of seeing. Now, I no longer call myself a feminist, and I don't have these terrible moral hang-ups. It's been freeing for me. I still care passionately about a range of traditionally feminist political issues (e.g. reproductive freedom, gay marriage, anti-rape activism), but I have concluded that - for me, at least - it is healthier for me not to live by a strict feminist moral code. The only downside, of course, is that now I am the one getting attacked by feminists! What goes around comes around, I guess. :)

*sigh*
Why does everyone jump to the conclusion that when I criticize the topic of a thread, that I'm suggesting that we censor or take away any piece of art that's not completely feminist?
That's silly and very impossible and a very bad thing.
Also, by bringing up a critique of a public blog, I'm not saying I'm a "better" feminist than anyone else. I'm not the one working hard and taking my time to run this blog. But, I know for a fact that the women who run the site appreciate feedback from other young feminists, which I am.
What am I saying, is that this space is supposed to be for feminist issues. You can go anywhere on the wide spectrum of the internet and discuss (Un)feminist things with ease. I come to feminist websites so I can discuss things through a feminist lens and not be ridiculed or threatened to be raped for voicing my opinion, etc.

nerdalert? This IS a feminist issue/discussion, though. Discussing (Un)feminist things is indeed discussing feminism.

If the subject of this particular post isn't your cup of tea, then just scroll by.

Geek culture. Science fiction is improving much faster than other aspects of geek culture. But a lot of it is still male-dominated.

I really like what SP said about this, I don't think I can add much.

Identifying things you encounter as (un/anti)feminist is one of the first, basic steps you can make towards applying feminism in your own life. Recognizing these elements of your life as contradictory to your belief system as a feminist, as opposed to rationalizing or pretending you don't really like whatever it is, can be a positive step towards taking them out of your life or focusing your energy on trying to change them.

Adrienne, I wanted to correct you...you attributed a quote from a comment below my comment to me, and they were not my words (below):

"Also Charity noted:

I've resisted a lot of unfeminist music, though. Misogynist lyrics gets a song booted from my playlist. Won't touch a lot of rap or hip-hop for exactly that reason.

Which doesn't leave alot of room for folks who are culturally attached to rap/hip-hop."

I also want to clarify that I do listen to rap and hip-hop, and (like nerdalert and kira) am not holding myself *above* in some way...I think discussions of this nature are good and are feminist, and I don't think any of the choices people have discussed are ANTIfeminist. I do take issue with the way the original post was worded, about people having versions of feminism that allow them to include whatever. I agree there are many feminisms and feminism is fluid, but at some point it does become meaningless if anything and everything were to be considered "feminist" or "part of my feminism." Something not-particularly-feminist and my feminism can coexist and not mutually exclude one another, but I can't just rationalize anything as a "feminist" choice because well, I'm a feminist all the rest of the time, and I want to feel better about liking something. That's all I was trying to say.

So. . . what's up with the apple graphic for this entry? There's only one explanation I can think of (Adam and Eve), and I don't like it. Is there something I'm missing?

I'm also going to step in here and defend having these guilty pleasure posts. While the original posts may not contain as much in-depth analysis as some commenters might want, every time we've had posts, the comments are all truly enlightening.

Here's why I like these "guilty pleasure" posts:

I am a woman. I am a feminist woman. If someone says something misogynist or unfeminist, I tend to balk and argue until my point is made. However, if there is a particular medium where something misogynist or unfeminist is said and I don't balk or argue, I want to know why. What is it about that particular medium that makes me want to deny either the content of that medium or my personal morals as a feminist?

This analysis is important. If I could hear misogynist music and like it, but hate the lyrics if they were just recited out loud, I have to wonder what it is about that music I really like. If it's the beat, then I'll look to other music with the same beat without the misogynist lyrics. If it's the singer, I'll look for albums and songs that don't feature misogyny. If what I like is an aspect of the music that cannot be separated from the misogyny, I'll have to either reevaluate my feminist morals or I'll have to reevaluate if I really like that particular music.

It's NOT about airing feminist dirty laundry or the "I'm a feminist, but..." argument. It's about being human and enjoying different types of entertainment. Our personalities, culture, and individual experience help shape our tastes in entertainment. Feminism is only one part of the many, many influences (intersectionality, anyone?) on our particular tastes. Understanding how to critically examine our own tastes will help us use our money and our voices to help shape the entertainment we like into something that represents our own feminist understanding, experiences, and morality.

This discussion is important and necessary for women to understand that they're not hypocrites for liking unfeminist entertainment because that entertainment also speaks to so many more different parts of women's personalities and tastes. It's also important to see if women who like particular unfeminist entertainment can help excise the misogynist content that is probably not a huge part of that particular entertainment, anyway. This discussion helps us identify our likes, identify misogynist entertainment, and plan to find a way to keep the entertainment without the misogyny.

I also think it's important to note that as women we already get "taught" a lot about ourselves by media and entertainment, and when we choose not to define ourselves in those terms, we're belittled and condescended to. So I take a lot of umbrage in being told what a feminist should and shouldn't do, like and shouldn't like. As a grown woman, I think I know the difference between what contributes to a complacency about misogynistic culture and taking snarky pleasure in entertainment that doesn't exactly meet my standards.

And I also hope never to read the words "fun feminists" to describe those with intersectional standards, much in the same why I would assume that most would prefer not to ever read "feminazi" to describe a woman with particular feminist parameters.

Bit of a touchy issue I see. I started off with a bit of a grin with this, because I thought of my own occasional chuckle at that ridiculously misogynistic Two and a Half Men, starring none other than Charlie Sheen. But I do see the point of those not appreciating this. I think the difference is where the money is at. I don't make them any money by watching. I get the channel regardless, and I'm not a Nielson family. But if I spend money on misogynist music, I am absolutely supporting it. And that *should* piss off people in here.

I think the fact that we as feminists have a relationship to pop culture which is complicated and difficult is absolutely a feminist issue.

Save a few, most of us were not raised explicitly feminist. We had upbringings which had feminist elements, maybe, or maybe not, but most of us were raised in pop culture, with pop culture, surrounded by peers in pop culture. We developed a critical eye and ear for it, but it shaped us nevertheless.

So we retain a fondness for it, but also know that it is horrifyingly unfeminist, most of the time. Negotiating the balance between living a life you consider ethical and feminist, and the tastes and preclusions my background gives me is a feminist issue for me. How do I deal with the fact that I like a lot of pop culture AND would like to call myself feminist?

Not to mention the fact that I had better figure out my relationship to pop culture if I ever hope to teach or communicate to anyone around me about reading it critically. If I refuse to speak your language, I am never going to be able to share anything with you. I can't get much accomplished by insisting on staying on the outside.

The other thing that seems important about this topic is that it becomes up to feminist-minded women to police themselves and restrict their choices. Patriarchy means we are already denied things and have to work harder to get the same. It means we face danger and censure, so forcing myself to disown all the things that I was socialized with or enjoy seems like a way to guarantee burnout. One of the best lessons my first feminist mentor ever taught me was to pick your battles, and remember that caring for yourself and maintaining your energy IS a feminist gesture. Refusing to fight every battle patriarchy places in front of me because I didn't cause the problem IS a feminist gesture. I do not have to argue with every jerk in every board room, and I can't. Either I listen and am unfeminist, or I isolate myself and miss out on mindless relaxation in the name of feminism. I lose or I lose.

I realize that it's sort of a thorny issue because in other ways it's absolutely unavoidable that living a feminist life means I will refuse to participate in some things, or to make certain choices. I suppose it's a question of moderation or sustainability - a lot of things I do in the name of feminism are going to put me at risk for discomfort or violence. I will speak out when I am harassed, or fight back, I will not play nice. But requiring that sort of discipline or discomfort all the time seems untenable. Figuring out an acceptable level of self-care considering my personal history as a child of pop culture, the fact that many of my friends are not as feminist as me is a feminist issue for me.

Yes, we all like something that's not perfectly feminist. Why do we have to have a post about it on a feminist blog? You don`t have to pat yourself on the back for it.

So we're just supposed to pretend we don't do it and not discuss it?

Adrienne commented at July 22, 2008 12:01 PM: "I love the beat in A Milli by Lil Wayne. I feel really sad when he says:

"'I'm a venereal disease like a menstrual bleed'"

Why is he calling menstruation like a venereal disease? Did he start getting periods after having unprotected sex with a woman? o_O

Tarantino movies.
They are so wrong in so many ways but the absurdity of these films are what draws me to them!

Okay so I've been a lurker for a while here and this is my first post. I registered just to post on this discussion cuz it resonates with me. If someone were to ask me if I were a 'feminist' I would most likely give a cautious 'no' for a number of reasons. Partly because I'm young and latina and when I see these so-called feminists icons I have a hard time relating. Partly because I do enjoy things culturally like GTA or raggaeton and hip hop that have elements I or others may have an issue with. So it was good to see people who are not so rigid to be in the world with me.

Punk. And I'm not at all guilty about it.

While a lot of the bands are pretty cool and politically-minded, it's usually concerts and other things outside the actual music that make me cringe a little. Fans have a tendency to be a bit dickish and will frequently try and grope you in a mosh pit (usually the teenage boys), or on the flip side, guys who try and be "gentlemanly" and help out any girl in a crowd or not mosh her as hard (usually the slightly older guys). Also the fact that if a band does sell women's size t-shirts, they are often one size or only come in S,M,L (that run really small anyway). And you do get the occasional "show me yer tits" asshole.

But there are groups like Anti-Flag (*swoon*) who sing about very important things, like problems with mass media ("This is the End") and even feminism ("Feminism is for Everyone (With a Beating Heart and a Thinking Brain"). Though their women's shirts seem to only come in S,M,L too. Boo.

Lala,

Thanks for your openness. It's nice to see I am not the only one out there who has begun to approach the "feminist" label with some trepidation. (I'm white, but I do understand your concerns about some of the white-centered icons.) One of the things that troubles me is that feminists often assume the only reason women dread the "feminist" label is because they have seen it trashed so frequently in the media. Indeed, I think that was a central point of Jessica Valenti's book. And while that may explain some women's relunctance to identify as a feminist, I think feminists themselves have a lot to answer for in explaining this phenomenon as well. Extreme forms of political correctness - and the idea that it is okay to publicly humiliate people who disagree with you - has unfortunately become tremendously pervasive among feminists, particularly in academia. I wish Feministing.com would have a discussion about that point some time: how should feminists approach people who disagree with them? Is "calling people out" for their sexism (which is sometimes just feminists' label for their alternate perspective) actually an effective political tool?

Poetry Lover I totally get what you're saying. My hesitancy with the "F" label has little to do with those who bash it and everything to do with attaching my name to the words and actions of some of these women that I find myself in strong disagreement with. They say and do stuff in the name of 'feminism' and I'm like that's not done in my name...Sometimes you hear someone talk about feminism and it totally meshes with that I feel...and then you see some of them on tv or read an op ed and I'm like wtf???

Ludwig van Beethoven!!! Had a terrible attitude towards women, even for his time. Pretty much one of history's biggest misogynist pricks. And oh did he write beautiful music...

Lord Flashheart from Blackadder Goes Forth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xTm7Z_6Dcs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3jEdW1zYDU

Oh Miriam...country music! I love it - and yet - it's absurdly un-feminist so much of the time. Women are always "girls" or dependent on their men. We are sometimes strong, but only ever in the context of a relationship or a man. But still I listen...

amen, hermanita! I love reggaeton, unfortunately. I am absolutely obsessed with Calle 13

..."Quiero