I admit I don't know much about partial-birth abortion politics. Can someone please decode just what Obama said and what that means? It wasn't clear to me at all.

what i find the most problematic is the nonchalant use of the term partial birth abortion, which is NOT a medical term- the official term is dilation and extraction abortion, or if referring to late in pregnancy, third term abortion. the level to which the 'conservative' frame has co-opted the discourse is deep, and starts with the language we use, and moves on to the ideas. ITS NOT A REAL WORD, stop using it!

Umm, I clearly need to do more research on his stance on abortion. I'm really glad that he's definitely a supporter of exceptions to abortion bans for the health of the mother, but he also supports defining what that means explicitly, which may end up excluding some women who's health issues won't be taken as seriously as other women's. Is he then against abortion bans, but working within the system we have? Or is he just another politician that wants abortion restricted by setting up hurdles for women? Don't get me wrong, health exceptions are important, but I would feel much more comfortable with politicians if they would just flat out support women's rights to reproductive health and choice without what is clearly unfair limitations and hurdles. At least it's clear that he recognizes women as a major player in pregnancy, and not just a means to a birth.

To be honest, I'm not too worried about Obama on abortion. Presidential candidates always have to say a few things here and there to try and seem more moderate in order to win over some independent or even opposite-party voters. While I would love a presidential candidate who would be 100% pro-choice, 100% feminist, and always very strong on feminist points, that candidate unfortunately probably wouldn't be elected. We have to accept that Obama might say a thing or two we might not agree with in order to win. But when he is in office, I think he ultimately will be a strong pro-choice leader.

How long is it going to take for progressives to stop using the right-wing's terminology? The proper terminology for a late term abortion is dilation and extraction. The term "partial-birth abortion" was invented to evoke an emotional response instead of allowing logical debate.

I've been following this coverage for a few days. It's been on Shakesville, Feministe and the Women's Health Policy Report.

I'm pretty embarrassed for the man. At a time when he is supposed to be pulling in the Clinton die-hard supporters, a gaff like this, on such a sensitive issue, can really screw him.

With a NARAL endorsement and an upcoming endorsement from Planned Parenthood, he can't afford to put down the talking points.

Will someone please make sure he gets that memo!?

I still disagree that one needs to talk to one's pastor and family if they don't want to.
Any way I read it, this sounds a lot like he would reduce rights to later abortions.

"How long is it going to take for progressives to stop using the right-wing's terminology?"

How long is to going to take for progressives to stop pretending Obama is a progressive?

"We have to accept that Obama might say a thing or two we might not agree with in order to win."

Funny how suddenly being a politician is okay for Obama, but was evidence of Clinton's horribleness.

"But when he is in office, I think he ultimately will be a strong pro-choice leader."

Between his support of Roberts, "some control over their bodies", needing our pastors to make these decisions and his repeated use of anti-choice lingo in talking about choice, I think this is a fantasy.

Presidential candidates always have to say a few things here and there to try and seem more moderate in order to win over some independent or even opposite-party voters.

Sort of dishonest of him to run as the Candidate of Change, then, huh? A new brand of politics, my ass.

I do not trust this man to stand up for progressive principals.

The people he is trying to court are not going to vote for him no matter what. Even if he advocated a complete ban on abortion, they wouldn't vote for him.

Why is it that Democratic politicians are always moving to the center (or more accurately, the far right) to court moderate-to-conservative voters, but Republican politicians never pretend to be lefty to court us?

And how does anyone know that Obama doesn't honestly *believe* this anti-choice shit? Here he is, adopting right-wing frames, language and mythology in discussing abortion rights. Maybe he's just speaking his mind - which is a frightening possibility.

Betty Boondoggle,

You may be right in calling my confidence in Obama naive. The comments that I've read so far have encouraged me to more deeply evaluate exactly what Obama is saying and how, and I plan to do a lot of research on his stance on abortion in the next few days (and months).

However, please do not use my quote as an example of inconsistency in evaluating Obama and Clinton. While some people who might say the same things as me about Obama said different things about Clinton, I believe that I have always been fair to both politicians. I'll never argue for Clinton's "horribleness."

This is exactly why I was always a little skeptical of Obama. You can't talk about changing the unproductive polarization between the parties without being serious about compromise. And compromise can be a dangerous thing when people's rights are at stake... especially when it comes to women's reproductive rights. In my view, any compromises are unacceptable. And playing into the rhetoric of the other side is also unacceptable.

Partial birth abortions? Belittling of mental health problems? Infringing on women's right to choose? Sounds like the same old rhetoric and not the rhetoric of change.

@Betty Boondoogle, SarahMC: co-sign on both

Oh, super. I thought we (Clinton supporters) we're supposed to be very much assured that if Obama won, he would protect our reproductive freedoms? Wonder what NARAL and their premature endorsement thinks of this?

And: What if I don't have a pastor because I don't go to church? Does that mean I have to discuss it with some other man instead? The mailman seems to be a pretty understanding guy. Would he be an adequate substitute?

I completely agree with SarahMC and Betty Boondoggle. This is why I won't vote for anymore Democrats unless they're unabashadly progressive. As long as the left continues to support Democratic pols no matter what, we're completely irrelevant to them. Hoping that Obama is going to become more progressive once he's in office is really wishful thinking.

And on the topic of terms, late term abortion is also politically charged, when it is (as it almost always is) refers to second trimester abortions

MoxieHart, I agree that progressives often use and reinforce right-wing rhetoric without realizing what they're doing. However, you can still be a progressive and feminist while having issues with partial-birth/late term abortion.

SarahMC,Hillary has said some republican sounding things about abortion as well. I wish Hillary supporters would stop acting like she is perfect when she's not. No one is.

I agree with Alicia that Obama will be a great pro-choice leader if elected. Part of the reason that NARAL endorsed him is that although he voted "present" on some bills in the Illinois state senate, he was often a champion of choice for those same bills, counting votes and working closely with Naral to ensure the best outcome for choice.

I am also really disheartened at how negatively a lot of feminists are reacting to his comments about the influence of pastors. Obama is 100% for the separation of church and state. He has left no doubt that in his opinion, religion should not dictate what women are allowed to do with their bodies. It is absrud to demand that he also be against individual people allowing religion to influence their lives and decisions. He is not for mandating that women talk to pastors about their decision, he has maintained that whether or not to have an abortion is a deeply personal choice that a woman must make based on her own belief system, which, for most women in the United States, is influenced by some sort of religion.

It is really condescending to women to think that talking to a pastor and letting your pastor make the decision for you are the same thing. Our tent gets a lot smaller when we start treating religious women like brain-washed drones.

Color me not surprised. And yes, Moxie Hart, it frustrates me to no end when politicians on *our* side (and I use that loosely) use the false language the right wing has created. Partial birth abortion is not a medical term and no progressive politican should be using it. Language matters.

I have no level of confidence for Obama to support a woman's right to choose.

He might be courting the conservatives and republicans, but c'mon. He's a smart and eloquent guy - if he wanted to stay true to his beliefs, I think he could have done it without selling out that way with talk about pastors and saying "partial birth", and the fact that he didn't is disappointing and a little disturbing.

I don't feel that Obama has such a stellar pro-choice record to disregard these comments.

I am having a really hard time with this new statement of his. I never fooled myself into thinking that Obama was going to be able to be above all the pandering and campaign strategy that he claimed to shun. i think it was part him being naive and part him trying to win the primary. I think Obama's biggest problem is he doesn't think his words matter as much as his actions.

Right now he is pandering to independents who are leaning right and he's trying to speak in their language ( with the moral distress and sacredness of sex) but at other times in different arenas he has worded things differently (discussing how he does't want his daughters punished with a baby or std because they didn't have comprehensive sex education). This report was in a Christian Magazine and I'm sure he worded things in a way to pull support without actually going against his pro-choice stance. His problem is: he needs to realize people don't care who he's talking to and he needs to realize the impact his words have and how they have disappointed people who would have supported him without his pandering. That is his biggest flaw and has always been the democrats biggest flaws. They take their base for granted and trust they we will let thems ay what they need to win.

Do I think Obama is anti-choice...not at all and there have been other examples to show this.

Do I think Obama is playing a type of politics he claimed to be above and making the same mistake other democrats have made before him: YES

Oh Daisy. I found fault with Hillary when she adopted right-wing talking points.
The difference is that we Hillary supporters did not market her as the HOPE! CHANGE! candidate who'd save the world from evil. And now those same Obama supporters who idolize him for his supposed different brand of politics are apologizing for him now that's he's proven to be nothing but more of the same.

I don't see anything very controversial about what Obama said here. In fact, I believe NARAL said his statement is consistent with Roe v. Wade, and his position is the same as, say, Russ Feingold.

Obama has a 100% rating from NARAL and Planned Parenthood. McCain has a 0% rating. Former Hillary voters who think there is no difference between the two need to wake up.

As a strong pro-choicer myself, I think you'd have to have a very serious mental health reason to get a third-term abortion. I'd love to hear of a circumstance where that should be the case. If both mother and fetus are physically healthy, and the fetus has reached viability, it just seems a bit gruesome to have dilation and extraction. I'd be surprised if that had the support of even 10% of the country.

Anyway, Obama has consistently said there should be an exception for the health of the mother. The Supreme Court, in Gonzales vs Carhart last year, stated 5-4 that there does not need to be a health exception at all, even physical health! Instead of fretting over Obama's words we should keep our eye on the ball -- and focus on the hard core misogynist McCain.

Out of the whole range of positions on abortion, I feel that this is a minor point. My impression is that he is respecting the woman's needs, but, at the same time, making it clear that he does not support late-term abortions in situations where the mother is not really in danger:

"It can be defined through physical health. It can be defined by serious clinical mental health diseases. It is not just a matter of feeling blue."

My problem with this is that he is presuming to know the difference between a serious mental health problem and simply "feeling blue"- I suspect that the latter term could be used to dismiss the very real mental health threats that could arise.

He also acknowledges that other people may be involved in the decision. I don't think he's saying that women MUST talk to pastors, family members, etc. (although I do think he threw in the pastor line to appeal to Christian voters), just that a lot of women DO discuss it with the people close to them before making a decision.

One can be adamantly pro-choice while still being opposed to abortion. I have had great success talking with Christians about the abortion by making that distinction, which helps them understand that pro-choice is not necessarily pro-abortion. In fact, the truly conservative position on abortion has to be pro-choice, since the anti-choice crowd are advocating for gov't interference in our most intimate and private decisions.

One of the things I like about Obama is his ability to talk to conservatives and Christians (and conservative Christians) in their own language, while still promoting a progressive agenda. And he has a track record in Illinois of doing just that and getting things done as a result.

This country is filled with people who have been fed lies about "liberals", our hatred of religion and our "godless agenda". If Obama can reach these people, who are for the most part well-meaning, if not well-informed, he can persuade some of them to vote for progressives, or at least not fear us.

ssooo, what are you ladies going to do then? Vote for McCain instead? I think its abundantly clear who the pro-choice candidate is this presidential election...and never has it been more important, with the possibility of 2 judges being appointed over the next 1-2 terms in office.

As a non-American, I don't really have anything to say about the specific talking points of your "candidates", but as a person watching from the sidelines with the rest of the world, I must say that I will be extremely happy when the election is done and all of this is over; however, after seeing what Bush has "accomplished" for your country, and the apparent downward spiral your culture seems to be taking, I must also say that I am absolutely terrified of the outcome, whatever it may be. Granted, from this point of view Obama does seem like a much better choice (compared to that McCain fellow), but I inherently do not trust politicians. No one REALLY knows what kind of agenda either of them have deep in their hearts, or what kind of pressures and infulences the victor will face once they finally take office.

If I were religious in any way, I would be praying my ass off for all of you. Call me a pessimist, but in all honesty, the word "doomed" keeps popping up in my mind when I think about the future of not only North America, but the rest of the world.

Sorry if this might seem irrelevant, but I thought it might be good to interject the opinion of someone who hasn't been completely immersed in all of this, someone "looking in from the outside", so to speak.

Partial birth abortions? Belittling of mental health problems? Infringing on women's right to choose?

Newsflash: There have been infringements on a woman's right to choose since Roe v. Wade was first decided. According to that decision, the cut-off for elective abortions is the end of the second trimester, at which point the (more or less) viable fetus gains the right not to be terminated according to the whim of its mother.

As others have noted, Obama's position is completely consistent with Roe and with mainstream pro-choice advocates.

It amazes me to see so many pro-choice women expressing outrage in contravention of everything that Roe v. Wade and the entire pro-choice movement stands for. Aborting a late-term pregnancy for any other reason than the severe ill health of mother or fetus is tantamount to infanticide.

Actually, I do think that if a woman "just doesn't feel good" is a perfectly valid reason to have an abortion. If she "just doesn't FEEL" like doing something with her body, she gets to choose. Simple.

Hell yes, SarahMC.
This is a thread on Obama's record on choice, and Clinton's record on choice happens to be clear on this particular issue, not on whether we think she was "perfect."

Also, my earlier comment on the consultation with ones pastor isn't to be solely attributed to Obama- it was a jab at the constant reference to making a personal decision, and yet for some reason, needing to involve a pastor. If you have one, great, use them. But what if you want to involve your therapist, local midwife or even your damn barista? It irks me that somehow a pastor should be more relevant to a woman's life than anyone else she might choose.

Betty Boondoggle -- Obama DID NOT support Roberts. In fact, he voted against both Roberts and Alito.

Obama's record is 100% pro-choice. Maybe he spoke inartfully here but who cares. John McCain still hasn't returned $300,000 from a Texas fundraiser who said women should "enjoy" rape.

As a strong pro-choicer myself, I think you'd have to have a very serious mental health reason to get a third-term abortion. I'd love to hear of a circumstance where that should be the case. If both mother and fetus are physically healthy, and the fetus has reached viability, it just seems a bit gruesome to have dilation and extraction. I'd be surprised if that had the support of even 10% of the country.

Yeah, and I be surprised if this straw-fetus situation ever happened much at all. I can't stand that fundies float this picture of droves of women who just suddenly decide at 8 months pregnant that they just don't feel like doing this pregnancy thing anymore, for no serious reason, and run out to get late-term abortions on their way to work. Sheesh! What is more likely to be the problematic situation with a no-mental-health exception is that something has been found to be very seriously wrong with the fetus (e.g., it is anencephalic) but not immediately physically life-threatening to the mother. This kind of discovery is devastating for a woman who wanted to have a baby, and it could be seriously damaging to her mental health to force her to carry to term and deliver a dead or dying brainless baby. Late-term abortions usually occur in the most awful, tragic, difficult, heart-wrenching situations, into which no politician has any right intruding.

To all the people saying that Obama isn't progressive;
He's a helluva lot more progressive than John McCain. In my eyes, neither of them is great choice, and I have reservations about Obama because of his inexperience in foreign policy and his pandering to the religious lunatics in the country. But who would you rather have making important decisions about your right to choose? Yeah, I'd take Obama over McCain any day.

i'm sort of in-between MikeT and SarahMC on this one.

overall obama has been disappointing lately and i think he's trying to lean to the middle far more than he should to be consistent with his purported ideals and than is necessary to get him elected.

that said, i trust obama on choice and MikeT brings up a good point about his ability to speak to independents and conservatives in their own language. i took this particular statement as more of an acknowledgment that many women DO discuss their reproductive decisions with the important people in their lives, whoever those might be.

i'm much more concerned about what may appear to be his caving on an exit from iraq and the telecom immunity horseshit.

Oh for goodness sake.
Spare me the lectures about how much better Obama is than McCain. NO SHIT.

Criticizing Obama =/= supporting McCain

It wouldn't kill some of you Obama apologists to critically assess the things he says and does on the campaign trail. It doesn't mean you have to stop supporting his candidacy!
Blind loyalty to Obama is no better than blind loyalty to Bush.

Existenz: "I think you'd have to have a very serious mental health reason to get a third-term abortion."

Please read

THESE are the women who will suffer if late-term abortions are completely banned. Anti-choicers don't acknowledge these women. There are SERIOUS, heartbreaking reasons some women choose to abort later in their pregnancies.

SarahMC, just because some people here came to a different conclusion than you on this doesn't mean they haven't given it thought.

Ok, Sarah, please don't patronize me. I stated in my previous entry that I barely support Obama, with many reservations. I'm hardly blindly loyal to him, and I'll probably vote for a third party candidate as my state is solidly blue. I'm hardly an apologist.
But I do find it disturbing how divided the left is right now at a moment when we need to be united. For the moment, Obama is the greatest hope we have to end 8 years of rethuglican rule. So maybe it would be smart to work together instead of tearing each other down, k? Maybe we should adopt some of the right's tactics--would they tear apart their candidate once said candidate was chosen? THAT is why they're going to win if we don't pull together and pretend to be a happy family.

Some people clearly have thought about it, but others are offended by any criticism of Obama, and respond by instructing us not to vote McCain (as though that's what we're planning to do). Or not to hold Obama responsible for the things he says and does.
Obama won the Democratic nomination by firing up the core-Dem supporters, who then organized and dragged everyone else to the polls for him. Running to the center is a rejection of that strategy! He relied on the enthusiasm of the base and now he is turning on his supposedly progressive values in order to gain support from the middle/right (which he WILL NOT GET ANYWAY).
Appeasing right-wingers will not win us the election. It never has and it never will.

SarahMC: what a heartbreaking story. And yes, of course you're right- and Obama agrees with you very plainly in the last quoted paragraph.

"It is not just a matter of feeling blue." does not read to me as a definition of "mental illness" as it is a statement as in "people who need this procedure do not just feel blue". He thinks THAT is what is important to understand. Like CalliopeJane said- it's a straw fetus issue (which, heh) and I read the statement as Obama acknowledging that, not as him stating "people who 'feel blue' cannot get a dilation and extraction".

It's the way I read it, which is why I was surprised that there was criticism. Sure, Obama's addressing a different crowd- people who fall for the theory that there are horrible baby-hating feminists (hairy too, I'm sure) who purposefully wait 8 months to have an eeeeevil abortion to... what point they can't say. But yeah, that's a myth, an urban legend, and it's a gateway argument to banning all abortions. If defining some parameters for dilation and extraction keeps the right wing anti-choicers from gaining ground with moderates (people who, as MikeT indicated, are generally pro-life but squeemish at the rhetoric partial-birth idea) then what exactly has been lost?

He relied on the enthusiasm of the base and now he is turning on his supposedly progressive values in order to gain support from the middle/right (which he WILL NOT GET ANYWAY).
Appeasing right-wingers will not win us the election. It never has and it never will.
I definitely agree with that, and that's what pisses me off the most about him. My gun-toting right-wing relatives so won't vote for him, so I wish he'd stop trying, and start focusing on the people who will vote for him.

Can I give a HUGE thanks to Sarah and anyone else who made the point that this:

"ssooo, what are you ladies going to do then? Vote for McCain instead?"

is not an appropriate response to criticism of Obama?

I AM VOTING FOR OBAMA. Because I know that it is the right thing to do given the circumstances, and because he is better than McCain. But DO NOT patronize me. I know in at least if not more detail than you do what the stakes of this election are. I follow every word out of the candidates' mouths. I also know how the democratic process works.

I do not HAVE to vote for Obama. That is where he is going wrong here. He is making the assumption that I, as an extremely progressive liberal, have no other choice than to go to the ballot box in Nov. and vote for him. No matter what he says. And that's just false. He needs to earn my fucking vote. Because guess what? There are more progressives [as in, more liberal/progressive than the average Dem] that are borderline votes for Obama than there are independent, republican-leaning folks. If he worked a little harder to court US, maybe we wouldn't vote for the green party, or hell, just stay home. Because it's really fucking condescending to be told that it doesn't matter whether the candidate supports our views on the issues. All that's supposed to matter is who s/he is NOT, who s/he is BETTER than.

Well what about the flaws? Obama has many, but how are voters supposed to know about them, know where he stands, know what to DEMAND of their candidate if we're just supposed to give him the benefit of the doubt every step of the way?

Criticize. Make yourself HEARD. Make your candidate listen so that he knows that you don't approve of his pandering. Let him know that his technique is ass-backwards: court the truly progressive, not the damn quasi-conservatives.

I have yet to warm up to Obama and I agree that this pandering to the center is not doing much to bring Hillary-supporters into the fold. Still, one has to feel/be extremely privileged to give their vote to McCain. Doing so is, at this point, not just irresponsible, but unethical. People's lives are at stake (women's lives, yes!, but also Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the citizens of those countries), and here livelihoods, educations, etc., etc. are on the line. I thought for once I wouldn't be voting for the lesser of two "evils," but such is the case (and I'm not so naive to think that Hillary was perfect... just don't know if I can trust another member of the boys' club after 8 years of Bush).

As uncomfortable as this makes me, he's still a hell of an improvement over what we've had for the past 8 years as well as over McCain.

Hopefully this is just a case of him diluting his view to cater to swing voters.

"questions of whether Obama would support narrowing abortion rights"

Absolutely not.

The uproar over his comments seems to me to be hollow "I told you so"s from bitter Clinton supporters.

I think some of the confusion and distress in this thread is being caused by the use of the phrase "late term abortion" when what is meant is "third trimester abortion". "Late term abortion" has been applied to anything post 12 weeks (11% of American abortions), and is most frequently applied to anything post 20 weeks (only 1.4%). There don't even appear to be stats specifically for third trimester abortions (post 27 weeks) because holy crap how disgustingly rare do you think THOSE are?

Unfortunately, by not being specific and using the vague "late term abortion" Obama left himself open for misinterpretation and has obviously caused a lot of concern among people who otherwise consider themselves his supporters. And that's just sad for him.

If I'm wrong on this can someone educate me please:

Aren't partial birth abortions extremely rare and normally only used in very serious medical situations when the mothers life is in danger?

I just don't see many women going to have a 'partial-birth' abortion, or any abortion at that stage in pregnancy, on a whim or because they were feeling a little down that day. If a woman is having one for mental health reasons I think it's a safe bet that her condition is a fair way past "feeling blue". I also really don't see any responsible doctor even performing an abortion on a woman at that stage without making sure the woman really needed it as, AFAIK, the procedure is a fairly serious one that medically wouldn't be carried out on a whim.

If I'm wrong here then please correct me, but I don't know that a requirement of 'feeling blue' would actually in practice affect any woman anywhere who is seeking this rather rare procedure.

I'll most likely vote for Obama. I sure as hell won't vote for McCain. But the thing I can't get out of my head is that moment during one of the Bush/Kerry debates, when W. said something high and mighty about how awful abortion is and how wonderful parental consent laws are, and Kerry had the perfect, the perfect opportunity to look him in the face and say,"You sexist, classist, priviledged ass. Have you ever known a 12 year old raped by her father?" I would have stood up and cheered. But he fumbled. He muttered something about sanctity of life or some shit. He caved, and I'll never forgive him or the Democratic party for running him.

I won't be excited about a candidate until I see them look the Religious Right in the face and say, "You don't own God, ethics, or morality, assholes. In fact, it turns out you're pretty bad at all three." They can even make it sound pretty and inoffensive, as long as they stop all this cowering and feigning to the "middle." In fact, and this might just be me being too optimistic about human nature, it might be easier to win the middle if you show a little godsdamned backbone. Tell the Right they've taken it too far. Point out sexism, and racism, and classism, and credism, and fearmongering, and propagandist tactics. People can be smart, and most people (that I know, anyway) don't like those things, either.

Obama may turn out to be that guy. I hope he does. My jury's still out on him.

*deep breath* /rant

re JRO: "ssooo, what are you ladies going to do then? Vote for McCain instead?"

Don't hold me hostage by my ovaries. Don't compel my vote with fear. This comment reeks of everything that turned me off of Obama supporters.

If the best reason you can give me for voting for Obama is McCain, you ain't got much going.

Liza-

"Hollow"? In case you've forgotten, Clinton supporters get a vote too, and unless he does something super-amazing really soon, quite a lot of us are not going to vote for him.

well it looks like I really touched a nerve on some of you. My apologies for the snarkiness, but it had to be said. I'm all in favor of scrutinizing our candidates, but after you have parsed and vetted it all, what will the end result be? I think at the end, it will still be obvious that Obama is the progressive and pro-choice option. And I can give a slew of reason to vote Obama that do not include McCain, but something tells me you're not interested in hearing them anyways...

Cosign @ SarahMC, mgt, LlesbianLlama and quimby.

Alicia said:

While I would love a presidential candidate who would be 100% pro-choice, 100% feminist, and always very strong on feminist points, that candidate unfortunately probably wouldn't be elected.

It's this kind of assume-the-worst, take-what-you-can-get attitude of so many liberal Dem voters that I think spells out their causes' own demise. I'm sick of hearing such self-professed progressives cast themselves as this bullied minority whose high-minded principles could never win an election. Except that those principles have won elections. Given everybody's hatred of Bush, and given that it was always Obama's aura or message -- not his background or voting record -- that propelled him in this race, those principles were, I thought, in a decent position to do so again.

I believe this idea of the American electorate being this right-wing, Bible-thumping mass that would never vote for a pro-choicer is a canard. It was drummed up by the right wing, eaten up by the media and now it's being parroted, in a typically self-victimizing move, by the left. Over half of the American electorate is female. Now that Obama has run, plenty of 20-somethings are now registered to vote, too. So how is it that you think support of abortion rights tantamount to political suicide?

It's not like abortion even needs to be a talking point right now. This country is in perfect shape to elect a solid progressive: a deepening recession, a spike in food and gas prices, a mounting healthcare crisis, an expanding war whose supposed aims many people would be hard-pressed to described... In that kind of climate, who says you have to pay lip service to hapless fetuses and funding for religious charities in order to make Americans swallow your liberalism?

We have to accept that Obama might say a thing or two we might not agree with in order to win.

Personally, I accepted this long ago, taking with a grain of salt his anti-pandering, stand-by-your-principles spiels. But while one accepts that he will do this, one doesn't have to accept his talk of limiting reproductive rights sitting down. One doesn't have to accept it at all. I'm truly sick of being told that I must -- and of being reminded of the alternative.

I am sooo with Maggie on this! What would the country look like if - after 8 years of Bush and the erosion of women's/grrrls/children's/ queer id-ed/non-white privileged folks, etc., etc. rights we had a candidate who would unabashedly address the abortion issue and yes, eschew the right's "terminology" for medical procedures (i.e. "partial birth")? Obama and other members of the club can talk all they want about their daughters/sisters/wives, but it's not the same. Regardless of how this plays out if Obama wins (and hopefully he will), his pandering and use of this incorrect language only contributes to the skewed discourse over our reproductive rights. This is not simply another Clinton vs. Obama debate, btw. This is way more important than that.

As confusing (and potentially scary) as Obama's comments are, aren't they at this point in time, somewhat immaterial? That is to say, aren't we talking about something (late-term abortion) that was already decided by the supreme court? Would he really have any jurisdiction to do anything about who gets to have one and who doesn't at this point?