A little off-topic here, but this has been bugging me for a while... What's with the bleeding thing? Is it really that common for women to bleed the first time they have sex? I didn't. . . and honestly it probably would have freaked me out if I had. So the whole idea of hoping for blood to spill out of a new bride is kind of disturbing, even aside from the whole ideology of ownership that's underlying this obsession with virginity.

This was a little disturbing what with the way the girl on the left seems to

Also, the article says that the hymen "normally breaks in the first act of intercourse"... isn't that also sort of a myth or at least exaggeration? I have always heard that by the time many women have sex for the first time, their hymens are already at least partially ruptured just from normal life activity (bike riding, etc.)? At the very least, many women never bleed the first time anyway.
I think that makes the whole "expecting the wife to bleed" thing even scarier... to think that a girl who actually did everything she was supposed to and remained a virgin could still face suspicion and punishment for not having bled sufficiently.

Only in a world this patriarchal is there an expensive, painful and dangerous practice for women to undergo that will create an illusion of her virginity to indulge the male ego.

I totally agree with you on this - I read that article and was horrified.

Sometimes I think that the nature of our society is changing, moving away from the patriarchal model, but then other times after seeing something like this article, it seems that no progress has been made.

And to the detriment of all of us.

david

I feel someone should point out, restoring your hymen does not erase past experiences. If you have had sex, you're not a virgin.

So, is the idea that you want to BE a virgin again, or just look and feel like one on your wedding night?

I understand the desire, perhaps obligation is a better word, to conform to those types of strict standards. The problem is the way they talk about it as if it wipes the slate clean, that what happened didn't happen.

I hate that this procedure even exists. I want to scream at these women not to do it, not to give in to this power struggle, but I also know that in their culture, there isn't any choice. Women in Muslim countries are murdered for this, and the men are honored for killing them.

Is there any way out of this? They're trapped either way.

i don't know, that vlog rubbed me the wrong way. i'm all about having a sense of humor about important issues, otherwise we'd be way too serious, way too often, but this didn't strike me as a situation that called for that type of humor. Yes surgically restoring a woman's hymen seems a bit ridiculous to us but we're also being extremely ethnocentric. This really may be a matter of life and death for some women and those women have little choice in whether or not to undergo this procedure. We should challenge the patriarchal system that places so much emphasis on women's virginity, not poke fun at the women electing this operation, because to them it was a choice that was mostly likely not made lightly.

That video was hilarious! loves it. "Hymens are made to be broken. Like promises."

In SOME Muslim societies, women are abused. I have the sneaking suspicion though, that more often than not, allowances are made for non-bleeders. In Uzbekistan for example, the "nuptial sheet" is shown off after the first night to the parents for proof of virginity.

Surprisingly enough, it always contains blood on it. Basically, if she doesn't bleed, there's always a convenient bag of animal blood nearby to be smeared on the sheet, and no big deal.

One great thing about non-virginity is that you also can't be kidnapped into marriage. I was watching a documentary on kidnapped brides in Kyrgyzstan. One girl sucessfully avoided a kidnapping by yelling "I'm a woman" at her would be abductors. Was it shameful for her family? Yes, but they were also happy she could complete her schooling.

Beliefs sometimes have nothing at all to do with realities. Even if the reality is that many virgins of marriage age don't have intact hymens because they never did, or because of physical activity or tampon use, and even if Muslim women have no more sex in Europe than anywhere else in the world, the outdated belief still stands.

I was taught that hymen was all-important, and was told how in the old days lives were ruined because the woman didn't bleed. I mean, it would shame the whole family, not just the non-bleeding woman. My grandparents also worried about me growing up in the US, that I would no longer be "one of theirs" with my new American life and value systems.

I'm not justifying hymenoplasty in the least bit. I think it's ridiculous and perpetuates a lot of nonsense - but I can see what the woman meant when she said it was more important than her life.

I feel someone should point out, restoring your hymen does not erase past experiences. If you have had sex, you're not a virgin.

It isn't about erasing anything, its about making sure your husband's or your own family doesn't murder you once they find out you are lacking the hymen.

That video was hilarious! loves it. "Hymens are made to be broken. Like promises."

In SOME Muslim societies, women are abused. I have the sneaking suspicion though, that more often than not, allowances are made for non-bleeders. In Uzbekistan for example, the "nuptial sheet" is shown off after the first night to the parents for proof of virginity.

Surprisingly enough, it always contains blood on it. Basically, if she doesn't bleed, there's always a convenient bag of animal blood nearby to be smeared on the sheet, and no big deal.

One great thing about non-virginity is that you also can't be kidnapped into marriage. I was watching a documentary on kidnapped brides in Kyrgyzstan. One girl sucessfully avoided a kidnapping by yelling "I'm a woman" at her would be abductors. Was it shameful for her family? Yes, but they were also happy she could complete her schooling.

1. I don't think that it's any of our business what these women want from their doctors.
2. Being untruthful is no way to start a marriage. Hymenoplasty except for a bicycle seat accident is a lie.
3. Can we retire the sexist phrase "male ego". It's so tired.

Human Bean: What's with the bleeding thing? Is it really that common for women to bleed the first time they have sex?

Caro: "normally breaks in the first act of intercourse"... isn't that also sort of a myth or at least exaggeration?

It really is that common for women to bleed upon first intercourse. It really is that common for women not to bleed upon first intercourse. The hymen might tear with intercourse, or it might not. A torn hymen might bleed, or it might not. It all depends on how thick the hymen is and how many blood vessels are in it. You really cannot tell by examining a woman whether she is a virgin or not. There is so much variety in hymens that a torn one can look like an untorn one, and vice versa. The normalization of a torn, bleeding hymen during first intercourse is unjustified and, IMHO, creepy.

That video was hilarious! loves it. "Hymens are made to be broken. Like promises."

In SOME Muslim societies, women are abused. I have the sneaking suspicion though, that more often than not, allowances are made for non-bleeders. In Uzbekistan for example, the "nuptial sheet" is shown off after the first night to the parents for proof of virginity.

Surprisingly enough, it always contains blood on it. Basically, if she doesn't bleed, there's always a convenient bag of animal blood nearby to be smeared on the sheet, and no big deal.

One great thing about non-virginity is that you also can't be kidnapped into marriage. I was watching a documentary on kidnapped brides in Kyrgyzstan. One girl sucessfully avoided a kidnapping by yelling "I'm a woman" at her would be abductors. Was it shameful for her family? Yes, but they were also happy she could complete her schooling.

1. I don't think that it's any of our business what these women want from their doctors.
2. Being untruthful is no way to start a marriage. Hymenoplasty except for a bicycle seat accident is a lie. You're either a virgin or you are not.
3. The phrase "male ego" is sexist and tired. Stop using it.

You are correct in noting that women in all relgions have " always [been] having sex, but working around the consequences in different ways." In Marjane Satrapi's book "Embroderies" they discuss the ways women have faked virginity in Iranian muslim society. It's an excellent book about women and sex in Iran that I would recommend to all.

You are correct in noting that Muslim women "were always having sex, but working around the consequences in different ways."

In Marjane Satrapi's book "Embroideries" she discusses the way women in Iran faked virginity on their wedding nights. It's an excellent book about women, sex, Islam and Iran that I would recommend.

Of all the parts of a woman's naughty bits, the hymen might be the most shrouded in mystery (except maybe the clitoris). I vote for more hymen education in our schools. I was born with a septate hymen and had no idea what was going on until I was 19 or so. I thought I was just some freak of nature who couldn't use a tampon.

Oh, and the hymen isn't skin, it's a mucous membrane.

Actually, I believe in a lot of Muslim countries, the women really aren't having sex.

The insanely strict societal "rules" that keep men and women in different worlds, different rooms, different socializing groups makes sex pretty tough. It's hard to imagine just how different these women's lives are until you visit with them or live with them.

You are correct in noting that Muslim women "were always having sex, but working around the consequences in different ways."

In Marjane Satrapi's book "Embroideries" she discusses the way women in Iran faked virginity on their wedding nights. It's an excellent book about women, sex, Islam and Iran that I would recommend.

Also, I completely agree with feministgal! I wish feministing was a little more educated about post-colonial issues.

Honestly, this should be a non-issue for Muslims. Like you're not even suppose to ask the question at all. However, we still do. Even my husband was asked if he was a virgin by another woman's mother. He was completely embarrassed.

That's why I want to pull my hair when I hear about this. Whether or not a woman is a virgin shouldn't even equate into whether she is marriage and the fact it still does just shows how firmly entrenched patriarchy is.

I wrote in more detail about this issue here.

Honestly, this should be a non-issue for Muslims. Like you're not even suppose to ask the question at all. However, we still do. Even my husband was asked if he was a virgin by another woman's mother. He was completely embarrassed.

That's why I want to pull my hair when I hear about this. Whether or not a woman is a virgin shouldn't even equate into whether she is marriage and the fact it still does just shows how firmly entrenched patriarchy is.

I wrote in more detail about this issue here.

Honestly, this should be a non-issue for Muslims. Like you're not even suppose to ask the question at all. However, we still do. Even my husband was asked if he was a virgin by another woman's mother. He was completely embarrassed.

That's why I want to pull my hair when I hear about this. Whether or not a woman is a virgin shouldn't even equate into whether she is marriage and the fact it still does just shows how firmly entrenched patriarchy is.

I wrote in more detail about this issue here.

I actually basically disagree with everything you've said, which is rare.

I left my house today wearing shorts and a t-shirt. Since I was a child, unless I was going to work I have *always* worn clothes appropriate to the weather, with little concern as to what other people would think. I lived with a man in an apartment I rented myself for two years as a young woman. My husband's permission isn't required for me to do anything with myself, only my kids, and then only if it's a "both parents must agree" thing. I have a good job making a lot of money. I went to college, won scholarships, and even went on to grad school with no question. I can walk anywhere I want and no one questions my right to be there.

I also do all the housework. I also work in the female auxiliary of IT, business analysis, and my good job still pays 2/3rds of what my husband's last comparable job paid. I also am expected to do everything that relates to the kids, by the schools and by my husband. Feminism is still meaningful and patriarchy isn't dead by any means, but when you try to seriously compare my life to the life of a woman who ever faced the possibility that she might be abducted into marriage, who actually had to think about proving she was a virgin to the first man she had sex with, who has to wear hot clothes on a summer day because her culture is obsessed with the idea that she might provoke lust in men, and say that feminism has made no progress or that the West is not *miles* ahead of the places where women can be KIDNAPPED INTO MARRIAGE, I just think you have no sense of perspective.

And yes, there are places within the United States where women suffer all these things except the kidnapped into marriage part, but since they are all part of fringe cultures (I know, from the internet it really seems like the crazy fundies who obsess over teen modesty own the whole country, but no, they really don't), women are *constantly* leaving those cultures behind and making new lives for themselves. My husband met many, many ex-Mormon girls in college on the West Coast who had rejected their church and wanted to have full and equal lives with men, including sex lives. In theocratic Muslim countries, you actually have to leave the entire nation before you can find a place where you can hang out with men as equals and no one cares, and a passport will always be a bigger barrier than just hopping on a train or getting in your own car and driving to another state.

I *do* think it's very likely that women from strict, theocratic Muslim nations that practice extreme separation of the sexes are having more hetero sex in Western countries than they could have at home, because they can meet and hang out with more men. That doesn't mean women in Iran never have sex outside of marriage, but it means the barriers to doing so are harder. I had *no* barrier to sex but my own psychological hangups. No one was policing me. No one cared if I fucked, or who I fucked. No one tried to chaperone me.

So no, I think you're wrong. There are women in the world suffering from far, far greater systemic oppression for being women than we do in Western nations. It's not related to Islam -- I think it's much easier to be a woman in Malaysia than to be a woman in many places in South America, for instance -- and sometimes there are greater freedoms to do specific things in other places, for instance, I believe it's easier for Iranian women to get ahead in the world of hard science than it is for American women. But to just live your life freely, without people being overly concerned about what you wear, who you spend time with or who you have sex with... we are doing much, much better than many places in the world.

I've probably said it on here before, but: When I did have sex for the first time, there was no blood and very little pain. (For which I was quite pleasantly surprised.) It's weird to me that everyone expects there has to be visible blood and noticeable pain for one to be a virgin! Then again, given the context that women are expected to be virgins or "dirt," why am I surprised?

The cherry analogy... it just kept going... O_o

The cherry analogy... it just kept going... O_o

OK, now that I have watched the video, I didn't find it funny. I found it clueless.

If that's the case, why didn't you just save it until you got married?

Maybe virginity isn't really that important to her, except for the fact of the culture she lives in.

What about cases of rape? Well, those are extreme cases.

Yes, and they happen. If a hymenoplasty makes a woman feel better about herself afterwards, more power to her.

or just get over it and say "Times are changing."

Not an option for all women!

The cherry analogy was funny, the hymen insurance was funny, the rest of it was blaming women for the misogynistic world they live in. Not funny.

Samhita posted: "Hmmm, I don't know the motivation to feature this particular quote, but I think being a virgin is something that is heralded in most communities around the world, not just the Muslim community."

More accurately, it's heralded in some (not all) Muslim communities and heralded in some (not no) non-Muslim communities.

Samhita posted: "...Understanding this, we do have to keep in mind that women are often put in great harm is they can't prove that they are virgins on their wedding night. We can't blame them for self-preservation."

Very good point.

Samhita posted: "Only in a world this patriarchal is there an expensive, painful and dangerous practice for women to undergo that will create an illusion of her virginity to indulge the male ego."

...and/or to indulge the ego-in-law of any gender? I've heard rumors about women having sex outside marriage, being engaged to their sex partners, and then having their fiancés' families impose hymen testing (he loves her the way she is, he knows first-hand that she's had sex, his extended family pushes him to marry a virgin or else, his mother wants to test his fiancée herself since she thinks it would be immodest for her husband to stick his finger in there...).

Human Bean commented: "What's with the bleeding thing? Is it really that common for women to bleed the first time they have sex?"

I heard that many rape victims bleed even if they didn't have hymens when they were raped. So, I wouldn't be surprised if bleeding the first time one's vagina is penetrated is more common where one's first time is more likely to be marital rape on the wedding night of a forced marriage, more likely to involve a man forcing an adult-size penis into a child-size vagina, etc...

Human Bean commented: "So the whole idea of hoping for blood to spill out of a new bride is kind of disturbing, even aside from the whole ideology of ownership that's underlying this obsession with virginity."

Indeed. I wonder if part of it is the ideology of ownership that underlies an obsession with women and girls feeling pain ("if she enjoys sex with me then she enjoys sex with men then she'll go have sex with more men than just me, so I don't want her to enjoy it when I have sex with her...")

iqonefiftynine commented: "1. I don't think that it's any of our business what these women want from their doctors."

Good point.

iqonefiftynine commented: "2. Being untruthful is no way to start a marriage. Hymenoplasty except for a bicycle seat accident is a lie."

It's not always a lie to the one she's marrying, though. Being untruthful to one's spouse is no way to start a marriage. That doesn't entitle third parties like the new in-laws to the truth about every intimate detail they want to know about the couple.

FrumiousB commented: "It really is that common for women to bleed upon first intercourse. It really is that common for women not to bleed upon first intercourse. The hymen might tear with intercourse, or it might not. A torn hymen might bleed, or it might not."

Likewise, her vaginal tissue might bleed (especially if she's too turned off to naturally lubricate), or it might not. Her labia might bleed (especially if they were sewn half-shut and her new husband's penis rips those stitches), or they might not.

FrumiousB commented: "The normalization of a torn, bleeding hymen during first intercourse is unjustified and, IMHO, creepy."

Yeah, it definitely seems sadistic...

I am a man, have been married, now in a long term partnership. I have never, nor would I ever, marry a virgin. The male attitude that expects or requires this is primitive and alien to me.

BUT - what about the women doing this?

Isn't it clear that every single woman getting this surgery is being dishonest with the person she's about to marry about her sexual history?

She's either willing to marry a man who has patriarchalist control issues (shouldn't she just say no to this?) - OR (perhaps in at least a few cases?) - she's trying to deceive a poor innocent naive virgin male who expects that he's marrying a woman who is a virgin like himself.

The premise of this article is that these surgeries are increasing in Europe, where these women presumably have other choices.

Oh yeah - blame the patriarchy...

But every single patriarchalist misogynist male had a mother... and apparently some of them have deceitful wives as well. The nature of men and women together is very deeply intertwined.

I was born with a septate hymen and had no idea what was going on until I was 19 or so. I thought I was just some freak of nature who couldn't use a tampon.

Me too! I am curious about how common this is, because my best friend and I both had this issue. Our moms did not believe us when we complained about the inability to insert tampons! We both received surgery to "unrestore" our hymens.

Lear commented: "Isn't it clear that every single woman getting this surgery is being dishonest with the person she's about to marry about her sexual history?"

Definitely not. It's clear that some of them are being completely honest with the people they're about to marry about their sexual history and being dishonest with intrusive third parties who insist on fingering the brides.

1. I don't think that it's any of our business what these women want from their doctors.
2. Being untruthful is no way to start a marriage. Hymenoplasty except for a bicycle seat accident is a lie. You're either a virgin or you are not.
3. The phrase "male ego" is sexist and tired. Stop using it.

1. However, if we want to discuss the reasons the expectations exist that drive women to want those things from their doctors, we can.
2. It most certainly is if the truth will cost you your life. Not everyone has a the privilege of equal footing in their marriage.
3. What about the term "male ego" is sexist and tired?

@Lear: "She's either willing to marry a man who has patriarchalist control issues (shouldn't she just say no to this?) - OR (perhaps in at least a few cases?) -"

A little bit of background:
Many European Muslim communities are deeply conservative, in some cases even more conservative that the citizens of their former homeland. Honor killings and the like are certainly not unheard of even here.

"she's trying to deceive a poor innocent naive virgin male who expects that he's marrying a woman who is a virgin like himself"

But some of these men in the same community are having sex as well! They are simply not held to the same standard as the women are.

"The premise of this article is that these surgeries are increasing in Europe, where these women presumably have other choices."

Choice is relative. Immigrant communities (even 2nd generation)in Europe are sometimes culturally isolated and quite unyielding. For example it is not uncommon for families to arrange or threaten to arrange a marriage for their European born daughter to an traditional man from their homeland with hopes that he will rein her in culturally once married.

But you've got to at least put the blame on countries like Germany who actually promote this kind of stuff by allowing special immigration and marriage laws applicable to certain ethnic groups but not to others...

I have never, nor would I ever, marry a virgin.

That's not better than a man who would never marry a woman who had already had sex.

FrumiousB, thank you for the hymen breakage explanation. Glad someone got to it before I did, 35 posts later.

As for Samhita, "And it is not about being able to have sex or not, it is the way it makes a man feel on his wedding night to know that another man has had sex with her. It is the control of female sexuality pure and simple because if she did it before she has already been used by another man, she has become property of the one before, as opposed to the one she married." I hadn't thought of it that way before you said it. Thank you for my daily dose of insight =)

That's not better than a man who would never marry a woman who had already had sex.

I'm not saying it is better - but what I mean by this is that I would (almost certainly) never consider marrying a woman I wasn't already in a sexual relationship with.

Someone upthread mentioned Embroideries by Marjane Satrapi. ("The Embroidery" is the Iranian slang for hymenoplasty.) There's an interesting bit in that book where one of the characters is talking to a male friend, who says, "I'm not going to insist on marrying a virgin." She thinks he's being very progressive, but he continues, "What with the embroidery, you can't tell anyway."

"I think being a virgin is something that is heralded in most communities around the world, not just the Muslim community. Women are often scrutinized for their virginity and chastised, shamed, insulted, etc., if they do not have "it" come wedding night."

I'm not sure that's true of 'most' communities. I agree that focus on virginity is not exclusive to the Muslim world but equally in many communities, it's not an issue at all. Not just in the West but in indigenous communities around the world (Papua New Guinea to give one example) and a lot of East Asia.

And in the past, and in many other communities today, a girl getting pregnant often led to a shot-gun wedding. I'm not advocating forced marriage by any means but it seems to me that the stigma in this case comes with having a baby out of wedlock, rather than the virginity on the wedding night. It's still a feminist issue but a different one and I'm not sure it's helpful to conflate the two.

But yes, hymenoplasty is a very scary concept.

What always bothers me is the logical impossibility of the double standard. Men want to sleep around, but women are supposed to be virgins. So if all women are virgins who are the men going to sleep with? I always wondered how that works in fundamentalist muslim societies. Women are not to be touched or even looked at at until marriage - but are muslim men celibate until marriage?

"1. However, if we want to discuss the reasons the expectations exist that drive women to want those things from their doctors, we can."

Typical western attitude! Most muslim women would find it disrespecful that you are publicly discussing this private choice.

"2. It most certainly is if the truth will cost you your life. Not everyone has a the privilege of equal footing in their marriage."

The scope of the article was on a costly European procedure. Survival is not the same as pressure. Stop making excuses. You don't lie to your spouse to start a marriage.

"3. What about the term "male ego" is sexist and tired?"

Sexist because it falls in the same category as "female vanity" or "girl logic" and is surely a faux pas in most writing style manuals.

And tired because it seems so 90's self helpy.

I'm not sure what your issue with people discussing this is. I'm sure there are people everywhere who would find any discussion disrespectful in some way; that doesn't mean we should stop talking. We also discuss FGM. Should we stop talking about that, because the women who practice it wouldn't like it?

Just because the article concerns the procedure in Europe doesn't mean that it happens elsewhere, nor does it means that consequences can't be that dire for women in Europe. I agree that dishonesty isn't a good way to start a marriage; I would also say that the pressure comes from somewhere, and that's probably not a great way to start a marriage either. You seem to be having a very strong reaction to the concept of hypothetical women having this surgery and it being a lie, and I'm confused as to why you seem so angry about it.

I really don't see the parallel between "male ego" and "girl logic," either, but perhaps that's because concepts associated with men tend to be positive and those associated with women tend to be negative to such an extent that negative male concepts don't carry the weight that negative male ones do.

iqonefiftynine-
Being "pressured" (i.e. forced by a community that could possibly make your life a living hell if you refuse) into a marriage where a woman feels she have to lie to save herself from disgrace and possible violence is no way to start a marriage either.

These women are not trying to be manipulative, they are trying to survive.

iqonefiftynine-
Being "pressured" (i.e. forced by a community that could possibly make your life a living hell if you refuse) into a marriage where a woman feels she have to lie to save herself from disgrace and possible violence is no way to start a marriage either.

These women are not trying to be manipulative, they are trying to survive.

Mathgoddess-

You and I probably have different definitions of manipulative, but any way you cut it the majority of the women who are buying this pay out of pocket procedure are not doing it to "survive." As the Times states "One character joked that she wants to to bring her odometer count back down to 'zero.'" Doesn't sound very life threatened to me.

someone correct me if i'm wrong but-i was always told that you can break yur hymen if you play sports or are just very active. i had never heard of the "blood on your wedding night thing" until now-seems stupid to me. think i'd rather stay a virgin for life!

the first i heard of these hymen repair things were wealthy manhattan women having in done to feel young again. but this is disgusting.

look, i know i'll cause a furore because i don't believe in sex before marriage-but i'm sick and tired of women, to steal jessica's phrase-being judged by the activity between their legs. patriarchal society has a REAL problem with women and sexuality-and i say tough luck! its encouraged rampant sexual activity in men-but its gets all huffy when women start behaving like this-well tough! we're not for double standards! if you don't want women fucking around then you oughta stop telling men that they can. i'm a muslim-and if i EVER hear about this happening with my friends or in my community you better believe i'm gonna be vocal about it!!!

I have also heard of Western couples who get it done every Valentine's as a "gift" to each other.

Thank dog for Judith Warner
http://warner.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/12/pure-tyranny/