I find Jackson Katz works to be very beneficial and Feminist. The other problem with so-called risk reducing rape "lists" is that it assumes privilege of being able to reduce your so-called risk of being raped. For women of color, or women who have to work to jobs, do not often have the privilege of avoiding being alone at night, or being on foot, or taking public transportation. It also completely disregards the predatory nature of rape, as you have highlighted. Men who rape are out looking to use any means necessary. They are out trying to get women drunk, or trying to drug women, or raping their wives, girlfriends, or other women in their own homes. It's not enough to tell women to "stay home" or "don't drink". You can't tell someone to not get drugged and raped. You can tell them to avoid men, or watch your drink, or "be careful", or whatever method the men who rape are using at the time, but none of that will stop rape.

Jackson Katz rules! I was lucky to be able to attend one of his workshops for faculty and staff at our university last year. He covered pretty much the same things the link you post mentions. Awesome! I was so impressed that I went to another talk by him later that evening, even though I knew he would cover similar issues. But it was worth it. I also made my students go because we were just starting our gender unit that week.

Have been wanting to read Katz's The Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and How All Men Can Help for a while now. This is a great reminder that I should definitely do that soon.

His book, The Macho Paradox was really good! The whole time I was reading it, I thought two things: 1) Why aren't there more guys who get this stuff? 2) Where are the guys he's educating, and will he do it at my school?

Highly recommend.

He has an excellent book out that I would recommend reading, called "The Macho Paradox".

He expands on all those issues and also goes into the subject of silence and how often times when men keep quiet while their friends say or do inapprotpirate things they are reinforcing the behavior. He runs programs designed to make men face their privilege and how it has caused them to perpetuate violence.

He also won't identify as a feminist as he is aware that some women do not feel men can be feminist and he respects that it is not his issue and he has no right to demand that label

While I agree that society tends to put the onus of avoiding rape on women (as referenced "don't drink", "don't go out alone", etc.) I do believe that this is an attempt at a pragmatic approach.

After all those of us who are not rapists or who will never be rapists already figured out, somehow, not to do that stuff; while those who are rapists or will rape are unlikely (at least in my mind) to stop themselves based on any message we, as a society, try and broadcast.

Now let me qualify this by stating that I'm thinking of "stranger" rape, not date/acquaintance-rape. I do believe that the "No Means No" campaign does and has made a difference.

I don't know that I have seen rape or domestic abuse portrayed as a female specific issue, other than having it very clear who is typically the victim, but maybe it's different for people raised differently (single mom, NOW chapter chair, left-coast, etc) than I was.

It's great to see people like Katz holding men accountable.

I worked on a study of sexual assault risk reduction among college women. It was an empowering experience to talk with young women and educate them on topics such as victim blame and rape myths. However, the results from the first year of the study showed that going through the program didn't decrease a woman's chance of experiencing a first assault. Frustrated doesn't even begin to describe how this makes me feel.

It's really up to men if sexual assault rates are ever going to decline.

I knew that "victim-blaming" was a dominant theme in our society, but I didn't realize how the media's passive language when covering a "violence against women case" dismissed the perpetrators instead of holding them accountable.

This is kind of why I resent the "1 out of 3" statistic--where are the rapists in this? What about teh menz? We've got a lot of culture to change before we really put the onus on men to stop being rapists.

In addition to his book, he has also been involved with two excellent documentaries/movies in partnership with the Media Education Foundation. They are titled "Tough Guise" and "Wrestling with Manhood." He discusses the historical and media representations of traditional masculinity. He even goes into how political conservatism is rooted in traditional definitions of manhood. As a prevention educator working at a rape crisis center, I love his stuff and it really helps reach young men with an alternative view of masculinity. Truly, only men can prevent rape by choosing not to rape.

I also appreciate that unlike some male activists in this area, he fully acknowledges the fact that women have been speaking out and doing this work for years and that all men in the movement have to listen to women's voices and learn from women. He recognizes that his privilege as a white male who is talking about violence against women gives him instant credibility due to the nature of a patriarchal society-an advantage most women educators do not have...so I love that he uses that advantage by promoting pro-feminist ideal and holding men accountable.

It is possible to get out the message that some of the less-immediately-apparent forms of rape -- getting her drunk, for example -- are in fact rape. There are those who may be educated to the fact that it really isn't just some wild fun, and those people can be called upon to improve their behavior. (And of course those of us who already are clear on the concept, who don't do that sort of thing.)

The ones who engage in deliberately violent behavior won't be persuaded. I doubt they can even be shamed into it by calling their manhood into question. By way of analogy, you'd think we have successfully gotten out the message that bank robbery is totally unacceptable, and yet we still have banks getting robbed all over the place.

"The other problem with so-called risk reducing rape 'lists' is that it assumes privilege of being able to reduce your so-called risk of being raped. For women of color, or women who have to work to jobs, do not often have the privilege of avoiding being alone at night, or being on foot, or taking public transportation."

Yeah, and at the same time the risk-reduction advice should be available just in case some people can use it. For example, neither telling everyone they should walk with friends at night nor silencing that tip because some people don't have friends and/or feet is good.

"You can't tell someone to not get drugged and raped. You can tell them to avoid men, or watch your drink, or 'be careful', or whatever method the men who rape are using at the time, but none of that will stop rape."

Exactly!

"As a culture, Americans first must take the step in acknowledging that violence against women is not a women's issue, but a men's issue"

That's such a great point. Women can reduce the danger of rape in some ways, but, to repeat practically ever other poster so far, that won't stop rape. It's up to everybody (men or people who identify as men aren't the only ones who rape or commit domestic violence) to resist a culture that tells them sex is about conquest and relationships are about possession.

This probably wasn't what she meant, but there's a great line in an Imogen Heap song that goes, "If love is surrender, whose war is it, anyway?"

LorgusZed, you are getting to be an extremely tiresome presence here. People have been nasty to you, and I've tried not to be, but you are really you keep trotting out the same old tired anti-feminist shit that we hear all the time, and you refuse to actually engage with what we are talking about. Nor do you, apparently, read the entire post.

This is a quote from the post that you presumably just read:

"I agree that women benefit from these education programs, but let us not mistake this for prevention...If a woman has done everything in her power to reduce her risk, then a man who has the proclivity for abuse or need for power will just move on to another woman or target."

So there's the acknowledgment of programs that put the onus on women. They teach things that aren't bad to be aware. BUT THEY ARE NOT ENOUGH. They have been going on for YEARS, and yet nothing much has really changed. You know why? Because there has not be a shift in thinking about masculinity like there has been about femininity. And that shift in thinking starts with one person at a time. What a shame that you seem so unwilling to be part of it.

You seem to be of the "we can't change anything, so let's do nothing" camp. Which makes YOU are part of the problem, especially because you spend more time arguing with feminists than actually trying to have a helpful attitude and share it with other men.

In other words, you are not a feminist, nor a feminist ally. We would like you to be, but you'll have to be actually willing to LEARN, and you have showed absolutely no inclination to do that.

I love Jackson Katz. I saw "Tough Guise" in my Sociology of Gender class and was moved to read "The Macho Paradox"--everything he says makes such perfect sense. I'd like to see his and similar men's education programs more widely adopted.

Ooh, I heart Jackson Katz. I love what he does in Tough Guise, and have been meaning to read his books. I've been in discussions with men after we've watched Tough Guise and it's so powerful. That film also helped me to question the effect violent movies were having on my life. Meaningful stuff.

Love,love,love Jackson Katz! His documentary "Tough Guise" is so clear and articulate. It's a great introduction to uncovering the (very obvious) hurtful and limiting social constraints of perceived "masculinity". As a junior high teacher, I've found it invaluble to my practice.

This guy sounds like a REAL gem. (no sarcasm).

I hate the idea (even common among some women I talk to) that rape when she's drunk/if she's a hooker/if she's a stripper/if she didn't say no until he drugged her/if she was walking alone at night is LESS THAN RAPE.

I don't care if you are walking naked at 2AM in an alley way- RAPISTS are still responsible for rape.

This is a decent article, and it really addresses the need for catagorizing rape in a different light, as opposed to saying its a women's issue.

However, whoever decided to say rape is a men's issue is pretty sexist, as it isnt a men's issue. It isnt my husband's issue, neither is it my male child's issue. This a violent offender issue, for both men and women.

To try and say it is a men's issue is just plain sexist and ignorant.

Saying pedophilia is a women's issue just because a large number of women like to have sex with children, well, seems sexist. Its a blanket statement that doesnt apply.

The thing is, LogrusZed, Katz isn't aiming at the "lurking in the bushes" rapists -- he's aiming at the men who might not even realize that what they're doing is rape, because of screwed-up social conventions.

Also, it's not just potential rapists who need to be educated: lawmakers, judges, and anyone who might one day sit on a jury need to understand what consent really is, and who is really at fault in cases of rape or battery.

There's one important distinction that needs to be made when talking about how rape is a men's issue: whether we're talking about rapists or people who perpetuate a culture that tolerates rape.

It should be obvious that the direct blame is on the rapist, although our society unfortunately doesn't always acknowledge this.

When talking about the indirect blame, that is, sustaining a culture that tolerates rape, I agree that it is a men's issue, but it is *equally* a women's issue. Our unhealthy cultural norms for masculinity are definitely a major part of the problem, and both men and women are responsible for perpetuating these norms. So yes, let's encourage men to take a closer look at their views on masculinity, but let's not forget that for cultural change, women (even those who don't identify as feminists) need to do the same.

"he's aiming at the men who might not even realize that what they're doing is rape, because of screwed-up social conventions."

uh

what?

*sigh* Are we giving Mr Katz a cookie for saying things that vocal female feminists have been saying for some time because he's a male feminist saying it?

I'm happy to send him a cookie recipe, but there's nothing here that I haven't seen on Feministing, on Shakes, on Pandagon, on Feministe, etc, etc, etc.

Scarlet, I think what he means is that men need to be a part of prevention education and awareness training. He is, yes, saying that treating offenders as offenders instead of putting all of the blame on the victim and that, more often than not, that offender is a man. Therefore, men need to be made as much a part of the process of preventing rape as women are already made to be. He isn't just casting all men as would-be rapists, but acknowledging their place in society as having the ability to educate themselves and others and promote real change.

1. Two comments: Katz is a brilliant example of something Damali Ayo (of rentanegro fame) mentions on her Web site. If you are a member of the dominant group, it is even more important to speak up to people because fellow members of the dominant group are more likely to listen to you than then would to the minority.

Men are more likely to take what Jackson Katz has to say about feminism than they would if any of us 'crazy feminazis' said any of the same things. Encourage the men in your life to stand up and call people on their BS.

2.anyone who might one day sit on a jury

Absolutely! If nothing makes you stand up and speak out when it's easier to shut up (when people are saying things about women/rape that are completely untrue), this idea should.

Every time you don't challenge someone when you hear them say something judgemental and victim-blaming about a woman who is a victim of rape, sexual assault, or domostic violence, you make it less likely that a woman down the road is going to get a conviction.

As part of my training to volunteer at a domestic violence shelter we had two homicide detectives (specializing in DV) come in and one of the things they mentioned is that they really really don't want DV cases to go to a jury-trial because it's so hard to get a conviction.

As Jackson Katz says in the article, "And it's not just individual men, it's a cultural problem. Our culture is producing violent men, and violence against women has become institutionalized. We need to take a step back and examine the institutionalized polices drafted by men that perpetuate the problem."

Scarlet, I also highly recommend reading The Macho Paradox. Katz talks about how men, not just as individual offenders, also contribute to our rape culture. Because they are part of the dominant group in society, men often have the power to be heard and enact change, whereas women and women's voices are so often ignored. Katz challenges all men to use that power, because it is not enough to simply say, "Well, I'm not a rapist, so it's not my problem." Rape is like sexism, racism, and other forms of oppression, in that if a person does not actively commit themselves to being part of the solution, then they are part of the problem. So yes, it is and should be your husband and your son's issue. Rape is everyone's issue.

Saw this guy speak live a few years back at the University of Colorado at Boulder. Great speech, and a bunch of frat boys, who were incidentally sent to this lecture as a punishment for violating campus policy on NOT MURDERING FRESHMEN PLEDGES WITH ALCOHOL, were put in their place by his eloquent, no-nonsense, almost militant style. I highly recommend checking him out live. Not just a wonderful commentator on rape, but also gender roles in general.

Cola: Yes! I think a lot of guys get uncomfortable talking about rape, and other than this general "Rape: don't do it" message, it's not really addressed as an issue men have control over. I really appreciate what Katz has to say here, because I think that as it stands now it's really hard for men to discuss rape without this accusatory implication. In fact, I'm a little embarrassed to say that I only recently embraced the idea of men as activists, and now it seems a little like a "well, duh," kind of thing.

A good analogy to use: Saying rape is woman's issue is like saying Robbery is a bank's issue. Sure they should safeguard against robbery, have security guards, cameras, etc., but that doesn't change the fact that robbers rob banks and get away with it when they clearly shouldn't. And no one would EVER use the same blame-the-victim mentality with a bank (you shouldn't have had all that MONEY sitting around!!!), so why do they use it with rapists? Fucking ridiculous!

Not a men's issue?? Considering nearly all rapists are male, and many rape victims are also male, I would say this is absolutely a man's issue. It's a man's issue, a woman's issue, a human issue.

@Llencelyn:

1) Why aren't there more guys who get this stuff?

We're out there; we just tend to be less vocal than the other ones. Sadly, some guys consider it "traitorous" for a man to take an interest in feminist issues. I don't get that, personally, but then again, I don't understand many things people do.

Katz’s work, which I first experienced in his videos and later in his presentations, had an incredible effect on me as a younger person (nine years ago). It was the first time I heard, from another man, that there was another way to think about myself and my masculinity. I was just beginning to volunteer for a rape prevention education program on my college campus, and that kind of influence helped me to believe that there was a place for me in that work, to stick with it, and to ultimately pursue it as a career. I have met many other men in rape prevention education who feel the same way.

Scarlet, Katz’s message is not that rape is your husband’s or your son’s problem because they are rapists. His message is that it is their problem because they are and will be men. The vast majority of violent acts, especially sexual violent acts, are committed by men. Part of the reason why men who are violent commit their acts is the way these violent men have learned to be men. They often are not given the message, by the men who are close and meaningful to them, that their violence is unacceptable.

So, image ten men… and one of these men is sexually violent or abusive in his relationships. Katz’s message is not directed at the one violent man. Instead, his message is to the nine non-violent men standing around him, and the message is… what are you going to do about this violent man? What can you tell him? What can you teach him? How can you help stop his violence? His violence is not the problem of the person, most likely the woman, that he is hurting… it is his problem and it is your problem, not hers. Scarlet, if your husband or your son is one of those non-violent bystanders, the violence of the rapist in their midst is definitely their problem.

Are Scilian and Scarlet the same person?
Masquerading as a woman, Scilian?
Nice try there, but yes, rape IS a men's issue, because the vast majority of rapists are men. That's not the same thing as saying the vast majority of men are rapists. Not all women will have an abortion in their lifetimes, but abortion is still a "woman's issue."
And - a large number of women like to have sex with children? Oooohkay. Typical of you to make up a lie about women in order to detract from the discussion at hand.

I dont agree that risk lowering strategies should not be employed because its sexist or puts too much "blame" on the woman for the rape.

We need a multipronged approach to attack rape, and risk strategies are a good tool to use.

In an ideal world, we wouldnt need these strategies, but thats not the world we live in--therefore its still sound policy to recommend against walking in a bad neighborhood late at night in bad neighborhoods with lots of cash.

Where the problem lies is that when for whatever reason we are not able to use these risk strategies (e.g. working at a late night diner because there are no other jobs available, and cant afford a car) that people use ridiculous logic to assert that the victim is somehow at fault.

Those two things are not connected in any way whatsoever.

We can and should use risk-lowering strategies while recognizing that the onus for the crime is still 100% on the part of the perpetrator.

Also, by combating rape myths and making it clear what rape actually is, among *men* -- who have a louder voice in our culture than women because men dominate the creation of mass media entertainment -- we have the opportunity to shape the culture in a way that makes even more people, male and female, aware of rape myths and what constitutes rape. This in turn changes the nature of the jury pool, so we will get more rape convictions, and getting more rape convictions gets more of the stranger-rapist type off the street and behind bars, thus reducing the total number of rapists *in* the population, which will reduce the number of rapes. So the impact on the "I know rape is bad, that's why I like to do it" rapists is still there, albeit not as direct as the impact on "What, you mean getting her too drunk to say no is *rape?* Who knew?" rapists.

Stranger rape should be one of the easiest crimes to convict. It almost always leaves DNA evidence, it almost always leaves a witness who had a chance to see the rapist's face up close and personal (I am of course not talking about rape/murders here, which are already taken very seriously unless the victim was a prostitute), and it has such a high rate of recidivism that chances are, you get a guy who committed one rape, you *should* be able to find a handful of other women he victimized to testify against him. But because people believe women are responsible for being raped, even stranger rapists frequently are not convicted or get off easy, and thus they're free to commit more rapes. (For example, if cops understood that women have less motivation to lie about being raped than people in general have to lie about being robbed -- there's insurance that will pay you if you get robbed, but no benefit incurs to anyone for being raped -- they wouldn't unfound rape cases because they didn't think the victim was traumatized enough. Fewer unfounded cases = more cops actively pursuing rapists = more rapists getting convicted and locked up.)

On rape being a men's issue, I would add that all those men who aren't rapists need to think about what they can do to not be part of the problem, to say nothing of part of the solution. One of the things discussed about the Gentlemen;s Auxiliary of the Open Source Women Back Each Other Up Project was that men need to think not so much about "rescuing" women from the evil rapists as they need to think about calling their peers on bad behavior. Whether it's catcalling, groping, jokes about rape, or even something as serious as situations where men engage in rape as a group, those men who aren't rapists need to learn to, and be given the tools to, say, "This is not acceptable. This needs to stop." In other words, men who aren't rapists need to learn to actively combat rape rather than just not being rapists.

I was a rape educator in college, but never for mandated groups, just voluntary attendees. Most of them were scared of being labeled a rapist, or were looking back over their various encounters and were worried that maybe they were a rapist at some point when they were younger. The issue there was really ambiguous consent. They thought the girls were consenting, but they really weren't sure.

It might not have been the most PC of solutions, but my perception was that their self-image as men was tied in with their success as sexual conquerors, so I appealed to their masculinity by pointing out that when you're doing it right, consent is not at all ambiguous. If you're really worried about it, I said, ask her what she wants you to do. I tried to teach them that getting consent for sex wasn't like signing a consent form before bungee jumping, that it could be fun and sexy, too.

There are a lot of rapists who are basically sociopaths and no amount of teaching is going to reach them. But there two categories of rapists who can be reached by this sort of thing.

The first combine insecurity with poor communication skills with a diminished view of female agency. They're responsible for a tiny fraction of rapes, I think, but they're the most reachable.

The second group are less reachable directly, but they depend heavily on social support from other guys, and if we take that support away, they'll be less likely to rape. I'm thinking of the guy I saw across the dorm cafeteria table once who was bragging that "no woman says no to him" but who backed down pretty quickly when I called him on it.

This group may never be nice guys, but if we can change the culture so that it considers men who rape to be less masculine, not hyper-masculine, we're removing some of their incentive.

I recognize that "masculinity" is a problematic concept for a lot of people, but I think it can be a valuable tool for shaping the behavior of those men whose self-worth is heavily based on extrinsic standards of manliness.

Anna: Yeah, Jackson Katz gets a cookie. He gets it for actively working to reduce rape, for producing documentaries, for writing books, for holding seminars, for starting the MVP program, and for numerous other positive actions he has taken. Katz is not some Nice Guy(TM) whining about how nobody acknowledges what a great guy he is for not raping women. We give kudos and shout outs to the Feministe, Feministing, Shakes, and other crews for their work, why not to Katz for his? I also think that since Katz has been doing anti-rape work for longer than the bloggers you name have been blogging, your implication that he is repeating what they say is unfounded.

Jackson Katz has been one of my mentors, and he and I do similar work, professionally.I am so pleased to see his ideas gaining more coverage. He's been a pioneer in this field for countless years; he's not just a "me too!" late arrival. As a youth, he enrolled as the only male in women's studies programs and received his degree specifically so he could address violence against women as his core issue. It's a passion of his, and he's the real deal. He's also incredibly funny in person!

Yeah it would be good to get more information out about date rape, and about how a man's inability to control his libido is the MAN'S PROBLEM, and shouldn't be the problem of anybody else (male, female, child, adult, family, stranger, etc.).

I had the pleasure of once going out with a guy who seemed to believe that two of his friends who were being played off each other by a girl should have a right to have sex with her because she was so obviously teasing them sexually and enticing them. This is the same boyfriend who said that if two people are going out/married and they've already had sex together, then it shouldn't be called rape if they have sex again, even if the woman says no.. because the "precedent has been set".

yeah.. needless to say we're not together anymore. But it goes to show that a lot of guys view sex as a right they have over women. In one case the girl does something the guys don't approve of and they're sexually attracted to her = free meat. In the other case the girl does everything perfectly but has already consented in the past = free meat.

FYI this guy was "all for equal opportunity", he was anarchist, anti-establishment, preferred strong and independent women that break the mold, etc.. sigh.. it's always the ones you least expect.

No this is a man that deserves a damn Klondike Bar.

"Now" not "no"

After reading this article I think I am gonna purchase Katz's book and check it out.

About the language the media uses -- in an article that is talking about an arrest for rape or abuse the journalist usually has to stick to the tenet "innocent until proven guilty." It seems possible that in these articles it says the woman was raped (because that is what she claims), but they cannot state the suspect raped her as it has not been proven in a court of law. Additionally, you see the use of alleged rape or alleged sexual abuse/domestic violence in the reporting of these incidents for the same reason. It is not for the media outlet to say the suspect is guilty if the trial has not even occurred yet, defamation issues may arise, etc, etc.

OTOH - this bit about the language is very important as the language we use defines the framework in which we discuss these issues. I remember reading about a woman testifying in her own rape case and that she had to use the term 'sex' to describe her rape when she kept saying the defendant raped her during her testimony. Eventually the judge ruled out all the words she could have used (other than sex or intercourse) which denied her the right to freely express what occurred to her. The judge said it was prejudicial to the defendant. If I recall correctly this guy was tried twice. I do not recall the outcome of the second trial where the judge applied this gag order. But just the idea that a woman would be forced in court to call her rape sex while she was describing what happened to her is beyond me - it makes me feel icky inside.

I am a huge fan of Jackson Katz, especially the media awareness projects he has done with Sut Jhally. I think his ideas on rape as a "women's issue" are especially insightful. I found this post especially interesting in light of one of the cover stories in the June issue of Cosmo, which I don't read but see everyday in my work for my college campus mail room. On the cover of this month's issue is this charming headline: "5 Signs a Guy is Capapble of Rape." http://www.cosmopolitan.com/magazine/in-this-issue/ Although you can't get the full article on-line, I did read it in the magazine after the title caught my eye. The 5 signs are all non-verbal signals that women should watch out for. Yet another example of how the responsibility for preventing violence against women falls on women and how media targeted at women continues to perpetuate such a misleading idea.

"We can and should use risk-lowering strategies while recognizing that the onus for the crime is still 100% on the part of the perpetrator."

Women are already taking responsibility for using risk-lowering strategies. When is the system and men as a group going to take responsibility for holding the perpetrator 100% responsible for his crime? I'm glad that Jackson Katz is working to change this, but judging by the comments of some posters, there is a lot of ground to be covered.

"In an ideal world, we wouldnt need these strategies, but thats not the world we live in--therefore its still sound policy to recommend against walking in a bad neighborhood late at night in bad neighborhoods with lots of cash."

Indeed. That goes for fighting other injustices as well as rape. We should try to change the world, but we need to survive the world as it already is in order to do that.

"FYI this guy was 'all for equal opportunity', he was anarchist, anti-establishment, preferred strong and independent women that break the mold, etc.. sigh.. it's always the ones you least expect."

Lemme guess, his idea of "breaking the mold" was rebelling against people who condemn rape (as if condemning rape is too mainstream and therefore not alternative enough for him)...

This issue of prejudicial language is mind-boggling. I understand the idea of not using terms that presume legal guilt on all charges, but the emotional fallout is horrendous.

By way of example, I am imagining a different crime. On the witness stand I might not be allowed to say "he robbed me," but rather to say "he pointed a gun at me and told me to give him my wallet." Or not to say "he assaulted and battered me" but rather "he struck me repeatedly on the face. and upper torso with fists and a stick." It is then up to the jury to decide, "Yup, that was robbery all right," or "Yup, that was assault and battery."

In as much as rape is the charge itself, how do you describe the incident in terms of what physically happened without presuming the charge? Or for that matter, presuming anything other than exactly what happened? It seems to me that the word "sex" is prejudicial in the opposite direction, in that it carries some implication of consent.

eh, how do men take responsibility for it? Men violently attack other men at a higher rate than they rape women or men (prison statistics are quite shocking and rarely reported, no "1 in 4" or 1 in 6,8, or 10 for prison rape), as far as we know by the numbers at least. Society has been trying to change that for thousands of years with varying degrees of success but if we cant eradicate assault, maiming, murder etc how the heck are we ever going to stop rape? Not to say they are all the same or equal but I just dont see it happening at a significant level for a long, long time. Changing the language used is definitely a positive step but I guess I'm just not seeing the male gender role changing much with all the pressure, from men and women, to keep it the same, and all the shit we get from that gender role wont change but one drop at a time, for another 100+ years.

I flipping love Jackson Katz! I saw the movie Tough Guise in a women's studies class last semester and I thought that his comments were ridiculously insightful; he pointed out that while violence against women is often perpetrated by men, the violence that men commit is also often against other men. He reinforced what feminists have been saying for years: that a violent and militarized culture is bad for people of any gender, but Katz did so in a way that made it accessible and relevant to men who would not ordinarily listen to what feminists have to say. Bravo Jackson Katz for being one of my heroes!

avast2006--

There was a thread about this some time ago (possibly regarding the same case you bring up). I remember several people, including at least one lawyer, suggested that not using the word rape could in fact be more powerful in persuading the jury, because while "rape" is one word, and a very broad term, at that, "He forced my legs open and shoved his penis into me" is specific, visual, and visceral, and as I'm sure you noticed just by reading it, a lot less comfortable to hear. It does the same thing as your robbery and assault examples.

Whether or not victims should be allowed the word "rape" in a courtroom setting is sticky. I think it depends on whether victims of assault or robbery or embezzlement are allowed those words and in what context. What shouldn't be happening is the tendency for victims of rape to be blamed for what happened to them, for whatever reason. If disallowing the word stems from that kind of prejudice rather than from a legal (and therefore hopefully neutral) interest in presumed innocence, then yeah, it sucks.

Yes avast2006 I agree with you. That is what I was trying to point out. I wish I was reading this site when that story was news, I would have liked to read the comments about it on here. When the judge told the victim she had to limit her descriptors to sex and intercourse (because the others words were prejudicial toward the defendant) it only left her with words that were prejudicial against herself. To limit the words a victim can use to express what happened to her is beyond ridiculous. It's called testimony for a reason. If she felt she was being raped she should have been allowed to say so on the stand. Maggie-the prosecutor would still ask her to describe the experience in detail.

In short, words carry meaning, but to restrict the vocabulary of those testifying renders the purpose of testimony moot.