Why the hell does it seem like every time we make a small stride in feminism, shit like this happens and makes us lose our confidence a bit more?

Kudos to her for bring to light the story. It's important to tell these stories, yet I am somehow afraid that it'll reinforce rape myths that rapes only take place in the contexts of a stranger in the night, or involves physical power ...and does not bring to light the prelavence of date rape.

As well, I'd be interested in hearing about how a university reacts to stories like these. I'd like to see more rape research done on college campuses. Often times, universities are VERY apprehensive about rape research, simply because "that problem doesn't happen" on their campus, or because they're afraid of bad public image.

I read a lot of things similar to this, but this one made me physically sick. I hope she takes those m*therf*ckers to court and they all get what they deserve- in my opinion to be assaulted and humiliated. I'm just seeing red right now, I'm usually much more "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind." I usually don't curse, either. Sorry.

I totally agree with you about the fact that the thing we need to combat is rape culture. The fact that a whole group of people thought the event was entertaining or were maybe too afraid to step in and go against the grain show how much work needs to be done to educate people about rape culture and ways to end it. This women is incredibly brave for sharing her story, hopefully she doesn't experience any negative backlash from speaking out.

Campuses need to step the fuck up and do something about this. Expel the fuckers and stand by the victim if she decides she wants police action instead of sweeping shit under the rug so you can maintain your "1 rape a year" statistic on the mandatory crime report. Make sure that every freshman class knows that this shit will not be tolerated and that anyone who ever wishes to come forward to report a crime can do so in a judgment free environment.

And yeah, kudos to this woman for having the bravery to share her story. I hope to God she gets the respect she deserves.

That just... ugh. I've moved beyond flash anger and sickness to a sort of slow-simmering rage. I want to take a hard copy into the univerity president's office, slam it on his desk, and ask him "Now what are you going to do?"

My father went to UConn. I'm ashamed that this happened at his alma mater. I have friends still going to UConn. I'm terrified that next weekend, this could be them. I want the men who did this arrested and expelled, with a note on their transcripts regarding the reason for expulsion. I want them to be ineligable for getting their degree from UConn, if they have enough credits to graduate.

I want the profit brought in from the sports programs put toward increased security. More patrols so something like this doesn't happen again. Security cameras and better lighting everywhere, so if it does happen it's a snap to pick up the offenders and give them what they deserve.

I can't remember if my home state has Good Samaritan laws, or if they even apply, but if so, slap the circler/observers with that, too. If dude humps chick and chick reacts violently, dude's not welcome. The least the guys could have done would be to leave her the fuck alone after pulling her off their buddy. Ideally, the drunk idjits should have stayed where they were (before travelling) until they sobered up.

Not being a law school student yet, I don't know the answer to this, but Rebecca brings up an interesting point: can the argument be made against universities that they violate Title IX requirements by not taking appropriate steps in preventing rape? I mean - having your Women's Center throwing some shit together once every April is certainly not enough, and it certainly makes sense to argue that sexual assaults and the mere threats of sexual assaults can interfere with a woman's quality of education.

i'm totally goddamn floored that a random group of males could act this way.

Here's hoping that she gets the justice she deserves

Actually, PFM, I think the answer may well be yes. Check this out:

http://ca10.uscourts.gov/opinions/06/06-1184.pdf

If they know about certain things on campus that create a danger of rape, and don't do anything about it, I think they can be found liable.

i believe in karma...what goes around comes around...those group of guys definitely have it coming to them...just wait...

RCG, no offense to your beliefs, but if there really was karma, exactly how would women have been so oppressed in this country 100 years ago?

That's a really good point about the Good Samaritan law. Can't she seek protection under that? And really, a "rape trail?" how does the school not know this euphemism exists? How does that not scream "law suit?"

Ugh. Damned if you do, etc. This is just plain disgusting.

Are the police investigating this further, or have they dropped it since they couldn't find the perpetrators that night?

Do yourselves a favor and don't read the comments in the original article written by Ms. Bruen. Suffice it to say the word "whore" appears a number of times, along with "liar".

You're right that self-defense isn't sufficient in a violently misogynistic culture, anymore than owning a gun is a good replacement for laws. However, it was inspiring to read that she has been standing up for herself consistently - at the event, and after for coming forward. Here's hoping she can keep it up and pursue this to the fullest extent of the law. Places of higher learning MUST become safe spaces for women, something they often are not right now.

"I want the profit brought in from the sports programs put toward increased security. More patrols so something like this doesn't happen again. Security cameras and better lighting everywhere, so if it does happen it's a snap to pick up the offenders and give them what they deserve."

Hell. Yes.

I go to Uconn currently, and I'd be lying if I said this incident was a rare occurrence. I transferred from a school in New York and I have to say I've never worried for my safety quite as much as I have in the last couple of years being here.

Longtime lurker, first time poster.

This story made my cry. I couldn't imagine the terror she must have felt while this was happening. Kudos to her for getting a few punches off.

I know this sounds weird, but I attend a school that is 80%+ female and crap like this makes me feel like I made the right choice. Our campus is well light and the saftey officers patrol 24/7. We get escorts to our cars or dorms at all times.

I know rape/sexual assualt can happen at any college campus, but at least my school is female-centered and this crap would be squashed pronto.

I seriously can't believe it! Just when I thought things were getting better for us, I'm proven wrong. Why the hell does this shit have to happen? I've grown sick and tired of all this rape and assaults. It has to END NOW! I just don't understand why people who do this crime do it. Are they that pathetic?!?!

But I do want to say that she's a brave student. I know how difficult it is to talk about your assauly and she has lots of courage to talk about it.
Keep it up Bruen!

I went to UConn, and did a lot of work dispelling the "rape trail" myth while i was there. I spoke in classrooms and to freshmen groups about the rarity of men jumping out of the bushes on the trail and that it was much more likely that the guy who just took you out on a date would rape you. At Uconn date rape is incredibly prevalent. And people didn't realize the definitions of date rape and/or consent. Now i'm just totally shocked, disgusted, and angered. This story is awful. Spring weekend is notorious for sexual assaults but this one left me nearly in tears. I can't believe the crowd reaction!

I also have an incredibly pessimistic view of the Uconn judicial system. I had experience with them while supporting a close friend who was a survivor of rape. No matter how clear cut her rape was, the guy got off, scott free. He wasn't punished one bit. I hope that Melissa goes through any legal system other than the university one, for her own sake. I am so disappointed at my alma mater :(

This is one of those times where I wish all the women and pro-fem males would channel a little Inga Musico. You know, rally every person on campus who is sick of this shit to support this woman who made every attempt to fight off being victimized and then go sit in front of these assholes' homes with giant "SEXUAL OFFENDER" banners. Just go shit crazy with anti-rapist fun such as TPing and egg throwing. Obviously the laws and institutions that are supposed to be protecting women/children/transpeople/etc/etc/etc and committed to safety aren't holding up their end of the bargain.

This story makes me heart very sad, so I will continue to live in my dream world of grassroots action against dirtbags. I do congratulate Bruen on her ability to speak about such a horrific incident. That takes ovaries!

i'm totally goddamn floored that a random group of males could act this way.

You're kidding, right? I would have been more surprised if they'd helped her out.

oh and mizz.rush - feel free to email me at feministgal@gmail.com if you wanna talk about some awesome WS profs to take classes with while you're there. I had an amazing experience in the WS department, there are some great people there.

I hope she made him bleed.

Is anyone punishing these men?

"You're kidding, right? I would have been more surprised if they'd helped her out."

not at all. The vast majority of males I know wouldn't be able to stand by and watch something like that.

maybe i'm just lucky with my friends.

And really, a "rape trail?" how does the school not know this euphemism exists? How does that not scream "law suit?"

I don't know about UConn, but I know my school has several areas of campus we call rape trails/variations thereof. Not because there's a history of rapes occuring in those areas (I'm from Eastern Michigan, the University that got in trouble for lying about the death of a female student. Turns out they haven't been accurately reporting crimes for YEARS), but because it's the sort of area where a stranger rape (or any sort of crime, really) could occur - poorly lit, obscured from easy view, etc. It doesn't scream "law suit!" until something like this happens. (Not that my school would take notice even then, but I digress)

My oh my! I wonder where men get the idea that this is acceptable! Could it be from *gasp* PORN?

ismone-I am not exactly sure what you are trying to question?

From what I gather, women have always been oppressed in this country and still are, sadly, in every type of realm there is. But what I mean, is that by karma, these men will hopefully be punished as in go to court, get tried and put in prison for what they did and/or expelled from UConn or something like that. What I don't mean is that men are going to be the one's raped by women...I am not sure if this clears it all up for you, but hopefully it does.

RCG, What I meant was, I don't think people who do bad things usually get what they deserve. Sigh.

oh and mizz.rush - feel free to email me at feministgal@gmail.com if you wanna talk about some awesome WS profs to take classes with while you're there. I had an amazing experience in the WS department, there are some great people there.

horrible.

but I can't believe how strong she seems. I think I would have been taking it a lot worse, but I can't really say because it is just one statement of her's I have read.

What I am trying to say is that she comes off super brave and powerful, and it is really inspiring.

Melissa Bruen, you are my shero! you are wonderful.

Karma, like the afterlife, are ideas humans use to comfort themselves whilst living in an unjust world. It's easy to tell yourself "He'll get what he deserves!" but unless we humans enact just laws and punishments, it's not going to happen in some supernatural way.

I know a lot of men who wouldn't rape. I know a lot of men who wouldn't actively assault a woman. But I know very few men who I am certain would speak up and DO something in a situation like this. (To be fair, a lot of women wouldn't do anything, either).

I don't believe I could depend on a man for anything. Not financial support, not emotional support, not to be there fore me when I needed it, not to defend me. I really believe I will have to take care of myself 100%. Unfortunately I am straight and do want to end up in a lifelong partnership, but when I think about how I will really have to pull more than half my weight... I don't know, it just seems so exhausting and I'm not sure what the point would be. And yes, I know you can work on changing the attitudes of the men in your life, and yes, I try to do that. But with your *partner,* you want them to get it. Even if there's a lifelong dialog on these issues (and there should be) there are some fundamentals that you need to get.

This makes me very sad. I like men, but I don't respect very many of them very much.

Maybe a vigilante group with video cams to catch these worthless wastes-of-air. And tasers. And maybe a pillory, to leave the offenders in the campus quad for a couple of days.

This makes me so unbelievably angry. And this was on campus. Disgusting. I don't even have the words to describe how I feel about this.

I'm just waiting for someone to blame her because of what she was wearing. Ugh.

I can't say I'm surprised one bit by the crowd's reaction. Young males in a pack, eager to gain status over each other or prove their "alpha dog" status? Pardon me for being cynical, but the combination of testosterone, rape culture, and as MaryTracy9 mentioned, porn (and Girls Gone Wild vids) means young women should not count on any male (except maybe one who knows her personally, but even then...) to help her in this situation. That's not even mentioning the whole "bystander effect" - the more people around you that are witnessing a negative event without speaking up, the less likely you are to speak up. But I'm amazed by her bravery in fighting back and in speaking out.

Unsurprising how little coverage this is getting, especially in the light of the (multi-)girl vs. girl assault in Lakeland, Florida case.

You know what would stop shit like this? Comprehensive sexuality and gender education from Kindergarten on.
Teaching women self-defense is all fine and good, but that only empowers one individual at a time and puts the onus on women to protect themselves. Education that takes place in a group (like a classroom) and individually (between parent and child) helps everybody and puts responsibility on men to respect women in the first place.

I, too, go to UConn and had read about this in our newspaper the week following Spring Weekend. And actually, it was brought up in one of my WS classes too. I always hear stories of sexual assault occurring but never hear about anything being done about it. I was glad to see Melissa's story being told on the front page and hear her speaking out. I just wish our school would being do more for preventative methods instead of dealing with the things after the fact.

Melissa Bruen is my new heroine. Speaking out afterward, and fighting back in the moment? I am awed by her stregnth. I went to UConn, did feminist organizing at UConn, and loved me some women's studies classes. There is some amazing women's community there, and certainly activism is happening on the campus to take women's safety seriously. Universities are always trying to keep reports of crimes like sexual assault on campus. Reporting to police off campus can really put the heat on to the University because they get all that nasty press. But we can keep on reporting sexual assaults, and organizing, and fighting back forever and ever, and still the rape culture dominates. As a feminist at UConn, I didn't feel I could organize within the dominate culture of the school that thrives in frats, and spring weekends and other spaces that can be really dangerous for women. We need men to start holding other men accountable. You know, instead of watching and laughing and cheering.

Unbelievable. If she'd let it happen and let herself be 'rescued' (meaning hoping to God that someone came along to help her, because there was no guarantee anyone would come along), they would have been sympathetic. These alpha-male assholes would have chased the other guy off and felt REALLY fucking macho and good about themselves. It's a woman's place to get attacked, and a man's place to rescue her. If she says 'NO I don't need rescuing, because this assault isn't going to fucking happen', she gets punished.

What's worse, when I read comments on stories about harrassment etc, there're always people who say 'well why don't you women grow some balls and stand up for yourselves?'

We have a stretch of our joint campus we call Rape Road.

It's very easy to lose hope, I think, when something like this happens, but by refusing to fade quietly into the night Melissa Bruen is doing an enormous amount of good for women and men.

I found this site through my daughter and am so impressed with some of the comments posted here, sans some of the language. I felt that I was back in 1975, when we first took on the battle of rape and atttempted to change the conversation on it. Back then, the word rape elicited chuckles from men of all moral standing. No one, except feminists, got it. Rape is power and aggression against another in its worst form. I am so proud of the young woman that fought back but she needs support from this community. Is it possible that everyone on this site could write their own personal letter of shock and disapproval to the president of UConn? In your letter you may suggest that the university president require a mandatory course on aggression against women for all entering freshman. Including the female students would encourage recognition of abuse for young women away from home for the first time. It would certainly start a dialogue between the two genders and that is where any change must start. I am so pleased that there are young women and men like you on this website that will not tolerate the abuse and discrimination that has been poured on women for centuries and continues today. If someone would please share the name and address of the UConn president, I will write my letter today. All of you have made my day with your passion and enlightenment. Thank you.

I am appalled! What is wrong with people? I think its beyond being related to porn. A lot of men are being fed the bs that its okay to disrespect women. I call it dumbing down of people. I swear we have gone 2 steps forward and 3 steps backwards rapidly. And it goes to blaming the woman. I see more misogynistic commercials on tv than 6 years ago. This incident reminds of a woman who was in central park that was assaulted by a group of men. And there was a movie starring Jodie Foster, "The Accused." It was about a girl who was gang raped in a bar and there was a group of men who cheered. They were prosecuted. I hope that girl who was assaulted files charges. Good for her for writing about this.

I found this site through my daughter and am so impressed with some of the comments posted here, sans some of the language. I felt that I was back in 1975, when we first took on the battle of rape and atttempted to change the conversation on it. Back then, the word rape elicited chuckles from men of all moral standing. No one, except feminists, got it. Rape is power and aggression against another in its worst form. I am so proud of the young woman that fought back but she needs support from this community. Is it possible that everyone on this site could write their own personal letter of shock and disapproval to the president of UConn? In your letter you may suggest that the university president require a mandatory course on aggression against women for all entering freshman. Including the female students would encourage recognition of abuse for young women away from home for the first time. It would certainly start a dialogue between the two genders and that is where any change must start. I am so pleased that there are young women and men like you on this website that will not tolerate the abuse and discrimination that has been poured on women for centuries and continues today. If someone would please share the name and address of the UConn president, I will write my letter today. All of you have made my day with your passion and enlightenment. Thank you.

I found this site through my daughter and am so impressed with some of the comments posted here, sans some of the language. I felt that I was back in 1975, when we first took on the battle of rape and atttempted to change the conversation on it. Back then, the word rape elicited chuckles from men of all moral standing. No one, except feminists, got it. Rape is power and aggression against another in its worst form. I am so proud of the young woman that fought back but she needs support from this community. Is it possible that everyone on this site could write their own personal letter of shock and disapproval to the president of UConn? In your letter you may suggest that the university president require a mandatory course on aggression against women for all entering freshman. Including the female students would encourage recognition of abuse for young women away from home for the first time. It would certainly start a dialogue between the two genders and that is where any change must start. I am so pleased that there are young women and men like you on this website that will not tolerate the abuse and discrimination that has been poured on women for centuries and continues today. If someone would please share the name and address of the UConn president, I will write my letter today. All of you have made my day with your passion and enlightenment. Thank you.

"but by refusing to fade quietly into the night Melissa Bruen is doing an enormous amount of good for women and men."

Thank you. This isn't a "step back"; this is simply a grim reminder that "it" is still here.

Pax (and everyone else) - Michael Hogan, the UConn president's email address is president@uconn.edu, his professional website is http://president.uconn.edu/, his press release "blog" is http://blogs.uconn.edu/president/, and his phone number at work is (860)486-2337, his fax number is (860)486-2627, and his mailing address is:

President Michael Hogan
University of Connecticut
Gulley Hall, Storrs Campus
352 Mansfield Road, Unit 2048
Storrs, CT 06269-2048

Tell him what you think. While you're at it, contact the campus police and tell them that the nation is watching how they proceed very carefully.

Division of Public Safety

Associate Vice President Robert Hudd
(860)486-4806, fax (860)486-2430
Public Safety Complex, Storrs Campus
126 N Eagleville Rd., Unit 3070
Storrs, CT 06269-3070

btw you'll have to copy and paste those websites, since it's accidentally counting the commas as part of the url if you simply click on them. oops!

While we're at it:

http://www.housedems.ct.gov/Merrill/index.asp
http://www.senatedems.ct.gov/Williams.html

Thanks for posting the president's contact info. I placed my call, and will distribute it the info to everyone I know that graduated from UConn.

This is sick and fucked up on so many levels. I have to give Melissa props for fighting back .

Can I please point out that karma refers to people getting their due... in their next life? RCG, you can believe in what you described if you want (though I find it incredible anyone could believe that) but it is NOT karma

And another voice to the slowly simmering with rage crowd

Horrible story, and the comments on the UConn student paper site are particularly disturbing.

However, let's not slip into offensive overgeneralizations, exelizabeth: "I like men, but I don't respect very many of them very much."

I'm glad people picked up on the male dominance aspects of this altercation. So often I hear people say that our society is "feminized", when clearly in many ways it is hyper-masculine.

Why didn't anyone step in earlier? Could be the bystander effect. But my take is that the onlookers intervened perhaps only when it was clear the dude was losing. He needed to be rescued from the continued humiliation of being beaten by a female.

Furthermore, after separating from her attacker, she broke a "male code" by calling him out.

At this point it was clear that she was going to be some kind of snitch, if you will.

The punishment for this violation in "manly-man land" is usually more violence. And that's exactly what she got.

Brava to her for standing up and telling her story.

This incident reminds of a woman who was in central park that was assaulted by a group of men.

Actually, they're not sure who assaulted that woman. A group of young black men were suspected and the cops coerced confessions from them. I believe they were recently exonerated. The central park jogger doesn't remember what happened and they're not sure who truly did commit the act.

And there was a movie starring Jodie Foster, "The Accused." It was about a girl who was gang raped in a bar and there was a group of men who cheered. They were prosecuted.

That's what this reminded me of. That was a true story, too. Only it was a young Portuguese woman who was attacked by men in her community (also Portuguese). Events played out in the courts and she was reviled in her community for sticking up for herself. If I remember correctly, she eventually committed suicide.

Both stories are just so sad.

As is this one. But it still feels uplifting to me that Melissa Bruen is continuing to fight back.

This is very very very sad! I stand with her. Strong sister she is! I sent her an email to let her know another sister is here for her and hears her!

I do not believe these men can keep their involvement secret. Work your contacts at UConn, those who have them! Someone knows! If someone gives up the identities of the assailants, the police can follow the lead!

In conjunction to teaching women self-defense, how about there be a programme to teach men that women are NOT tbeir sex toys, are human beings and should be respected as such. i really get angry at these rape stories and those including drunk women. despise the fact i loathe alcohol and don't drink it for religious reasons i hate the fact the woman is always blamed that she was raped because she was drunk and that that is the major problem. no.

the major problem is that she was raped because someone though it IS PERFECTLY OK TO SEXUALLY ASSULT SOMEONE WHO IS IN A VUNERABLE POSITION, AND SOCIETY DOESN'T GIVE A FUCK TO CALL OUT THIS BEHAVIOUR. THAT is the major problem. THAT is why i hate patriarchy.
(ps-sorry about the caps-just so angry after reading that, i hope she gets justice, either in this world or the next).

I still maintain that until society and culture as a whole does a 180 and stops treating women like toys, the best thing to do is to fight back. In the moment no one is thinking, "is this fair? is this right that the onus is on me to do something about this?" Hell no. The alternative is to just take it or hope to god your never attacked? Of course we need to educate and model humane treatment of one another. I simply don't see how arming yourself with tools to beat the crap out of your attacker puts the "onus" on the victim. People wear helmets when they ride a bicycle in case they get in an accident right? Melissa is my hero!

Porn, rape myths, the constructions of masculinities, the lack of voice for survivors, a lack of education, false representations of women's standpoints and laws that do not stand on the side of women all contribute to this. Fighting it won't be easy, but we take it one step at a time.

Ideas as to how to prevent rape?

Pax, I hate to say it, but my college out in the midwest tried to do that sort of education with entering freshman...starting in 1990. Unfortunately, by then it's too late. It had no effect on crime at all. In my experience, it doesn't matter how much of a "stand up guy" he is, there is a strong possibility that his attitudes are different when he's around the guys, ESPECIALLY if he's drinking. I've unfortunately seen it too often. The only way to affect these attitudes is a change in how children are raised in our culture, both genders. This has to start with the parents. In my view, the best way for us to combat it is to raise our sons to not need to follow the pack to validate their manhood, and for our daughters to learn that it's OK for women to be aggressive, as much so as men (especially if danger lurks). And we must be as vigilant in monitoring our sons' activities as our daughters, to make sure that they behave well and are around good influences. If you've done all of that, then likely you won't see this idiocy happening later when they're let loose.

this is so terrible and disgusting... i can't believe shit like this is still happening in the world. why does it feel like, as feminists, we're still moving 5 steps back? what can we do? we need to start a revolution!

"Kudos to her for bring to light the story. It's important to tell these stories, yet I am somehow afraid that it'll reinforce rape myths that rapes only take place in the contexts of a stranger in the night, or involves physical power ...and does not bring to light the prelavence of date rape."

Good points. It's tougher to get a complex set of facts (such as both stranger rape and date rape existing) across than a simpler story :/ , and so important at the same time.

"Karma, like the afterlife, are ideas humans use to comfort themselves whilst living in an unjust world. It's easy to tell yourself 'He'll get what he deserves!'..."

...and easy for some people to tell themselves "she deserved what she got!"...

"Pax, I hate to say it, but my college out in the midwest tried to do that sort of education with entering freshman...starting in 1990. Unfortunately, by then it's too late."

Which reminds me, what about "nontraditional" entering freshmen, who were already let lose for years before going back to school? Would they be more or less receptive to these warnings, do they need them more or less, etc?

This is fucking disgusting and I'm happy that she had the courage to stand up for herself, both in the physical and emotional self defense. It's a testament that we've come this far and still have so, so far to go. Forget jetpacks and condos on the moon, I'd settle for some human fucking decency.

And yeah, RCG, karma happens after you die and as SarahMC pointed out, it's something people use to comfort themselves. We've got to get out of that mentality and be able to punish assholes like this in the here and now or else it will never end.

Bruen is a truly amazing woman. Please stay strong! We're behind you 100%!

All these frat boys need to die. "You think that was assault?" Wait till I hold you down, you sexist fuck, and ram a sword up your ass. Slowly. While people cheer all around you, while you struggle, scream, and bleed.

Well, that would be Hammurabi-style justice, anyway.

This is one brave chick. She absolutely rocks. I'm inspired by her.

Less about this specific situation, but I've never understood why a crime like rape or sexual assault should be appropriate for a University judicial proceeding. That's for schoolkid stuff like plagiarism and cheating on tests and playing music too loud in your dorm room late at night, okay?

Attacking a woman in the woods is a fucking FELONY okay? And, I'm sorry, you wouldn't let a podunk university judicial system handle a murder case, so I don't understand why we've somehow been convinced it's the least bit appropriate when it's rape and assault.

This is a case for real police, and the real courts, and they should investigate it and put people on trial and then in jail. And if the University doesn't assist, then those people should go to jail for obstruction of justice.

Grrr.

My disgust (though, alas, not surprise) that such a thing can happen has already been amply expressed in the preceding posts.

However, I have to say, I'd like to take lessons from Melissa Bruen. Whenever I hear of a woman who didn't freeze in a situation like that, I just want to know how she did it, because it's a skill I have yet to learn (despite, I might add, a black belt in taekwondo).

Janetfaust brings up the "Girls Gone Wild" fad on campuses, and she has a point. But I don't think the point applies to pornography generally. GGW is not the same as your grandparent's porn. I hesitate to even call it "pornography", except in the most nebulous kind of definition (sex/nudity = porn, QED.) Erotica and pornography is based on fantasy - in fact, fantasy is a fundamental characteristic of the genre. The performers are paid professionals (regardless of what one may think of it, it is a profession) that (usually) do not have the actual relationships or even exhibit the same behaviors outside the movie set that they depict on screen. And all fans of pornography used to know this intrinsically, just like they know that an actor that portrays a murderer on screen isn't a murderer in "real life".

But "Girls Gone Wild" and it's imitators are far more damaging and insidious than what we might as well call "traditional" pornography of the "Behind the Green Door" type, or even "Buttman Does Brazil Part XIII".

GGW is "real people" - in this case, drunken college women with colossally bad judgement, being misled and misused by video voyeurs to make a buck. Who are the biggest consumers of GGW videos? College men, of course. I'd wager that in most cases, a GGW video is the only "pornography" that the typical buyer owns. (It would be an interesting consumer poll.)

GGW and its ilk sends a terrible social message to young college men, who are typically living on their own for the first time, with all the crazy behavior and limit-pushing that entails. It sends an equally bad message to college women, who are apparently hearing it: aside from the rare underage girl or case of coercion (for which GGW has been prosecuted and sued), there seems to be no shortage of college women willing to make fools of themselves on camera in exchange for a baseball cap and their 15 minutes of fame.

Educating college men on the realities of date-rape and the need for sexual respect is important, but shouldn't there be an equal calling to feminists to teach college women to refuse to participate in these kinds of videos? Have there been any "Girls Gone Wild - Don't Do It!" consciousness-raising seminars for women on campuses? From what I understand, these film shoots are generally announced in advance - have any feminist groups organized to picket the businesses that allow them to film on the premises?

If not, why not?

There is no law to stop GGW from making videos with naked bodies in them, and there shouldn't be. Blaming "pornography" misses the point, and misses why these kinds of videos do the damage they do, which is that they are presented as "reality", not fantasy; as "documentary", not art.

The performers are paid professionals (regardless of what one may think of it, it is a profession) that (usually) do not have the actual relationships or even exhibit the same behaviors outside the movie set that they depict on screen.

It's worth pointing out that it is a "profession" that women have traditionally been brought into by means of force and coercion, elements that rarely make the final cut.

Studies have shown that there is a very specific sort of pornography that is particularly popular amongst rapists: namely, narratives in which the woman initially resists, eventually gives in, and ultimately is seen to be enjoying it.

To say there's no link at all is simply to ignore reality.

Of course, it is true that the "reality" format of GGW and its ilk create an additional illusion of voluntariness and sincerity that cannot be achieved by openly fictional depictions.

Oh wow, I completely forgot to mention something now that I see a lot of people talking about the "rape trail".
You want to know Uconn's GRAND idea for combatting that? The schmuck who put this in place was so proud of himself...he bought signs for each side that says "Huntington Road Trail".

Way to go, Uconn. Really changing minds every day...

This summer I'm involved with one of the org's on campus that's doing rape prevention workshops with incoming freshmen, but I do agree with a lot of people here; once you're 18/19, it might be too late.

Well done to Melissa Bruen for fighting back.

Men have been attacking other men and women for ever. Not sure if there's any proven link to porn.

Girl gangs are known to attack other girls and no one suggests they spend a lot of time watching pornography.

Most men (and women) wouldn't cheer or take part part in an attack on someone else so there's no need to lose faith in humanity, but, equally, if I run into the wrong group of young men (or young men and women) on a saturday night in an English town, I may be beaten to death.

Story of violent crowd, including girls attacking woman:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=562508&in_page_id=1770

Elise: However, I have to say, I'd like to take lessons from Melissa Bruen. Whenever I hear of a woman who didn't freeze in a situation like that, I just want to know how she did it, because it's a skill I have yet to learn (despite, I might add, a black belt in taekwondo).

Apparently, this one has prior experience. As for training for that sort of thing in advance, I guess the natural place to look would be how the military trains people. Also, you say you are trained in taekwondo. Is that a sport with minimal-rules full-contact sparing? If not, I wouldn't say it's the skill for this type of situation to begin with.

This is beyond disgraceful. I wonder if those savages acting out their "Girls Gone Wild" fantasies would be so proud of themselves if Bruen was their mother or sister.

What turned the students into such despicable monsters? What kind of atmosphere is UConn promoting on campus that enables such behavior? I am in disbelief that such a humiliation can happen in this day and age.

I certainly wouldn't encourage any prospective student to go to this school. The university's president has a lot to answer for. This is no "boys will be boys" prank that can be swept under the rug, and UConn owes the female students an explanation and sincere assurances of their safety on campus.

She said "drunken mob," so apparently alcohol was involved. That, I think, could be partially addressed by getting rid of the idea that being drunk relieves one of responsibility. Since a good part of drunkenness is apparently placebo, I'd be willing to bet quite a lot that drunk people would suddenly start acting a whole lot more sober if willfully drugging oneself were taken, socially and legally, to be implicit personal endorsement of anything you might do while under the influence.

i am thinking i would love to start carrying around those plastic cords that cops now use to secure people (instead of cuffs) and if i could just mace someone who attempted an attack (on me or someone i was with) i could then "cuff" them so to speak and theyd be so fuct -- also, tasers are totally legal in fl and really affordable, my dad said he would buy one for me, good old dad -- *sigh*, of course, i have no idea how i would react in a similar situation, but i like to think id be proactive

i applaud melissa for her strength and quick reaction in this situation -- i think both the mob mentality and the bystander effect were at play here -- i went to UF and the attitude people have in gainesville, fl toward drunk women in downtown at night or at games or where ever is very unsettling, i just take myself out of those situations -- while i was in school (i still live there) i did have to help a chick downtown get onto the bus one night because her friends had abandoned her to go to another club/bar -- part of it is feeling safe with the people you go out with cause what crappy friends right? -- ultimately, i think anyone should be able to walk on campus at night safely -- if this walk is known as the 'rape trail' where was the blue light emergency system located on this path? no one has mentioned that on this thread (i dont think?)

Girl gangs are known to attack other girls and no one suggests they spend a lot of time watching pornography.

There is a difference between a woman being sexually assaulted by a group of men (in this case, as retaliation for fighting back against a prior sexual assault) and a female gang attacking other girls/women. Pornography is mention in this instance because this was sexual violence, specifically, it was the most common kind of sexual violence male(s)-on-female

As for training for that sort of thing in advance, I guess the natural place to look would be how the military trains people. Also, you say you are trained in taekwondo. Is that a sport with minimal-rules full-contact sparing? If not, I wouldn't say it's the skill for this type of situation to begin with.

I've been doing some research for some fiction I'm pondering, and I have to say I'm really impressed with Krav Maga. I've never done any hands-on, so I can't speak to the experience of learning it, but the philosophies certainly seem designed for surviving assaults like the one described.

(And I say this as a Quaker, so I must be even more horrified by this than I thought I was.)

WOW!! Fucking revolting. This is why I'm taking gun lessons this summer. And to think all those 'boys crisis' crybabies worry about the small insignificant difference in male attendance in comparison to female attendance at school. Fuck if I care. The less men, the better.

"Why the hell does it seem like every time we make a small stride in feminism, shit like this happens and makes us lose our confidence a bit more?"

Loss of confidence? This AFFIRMS my adherence to feminism. I think what we are missing in order to find new ways (in association with sociologically) of stopping misogyny is to look at men. I wonder if theres not something biological about them. I dont mean anything having to do with the stereotypes surrounding testosterone, but more along the lines of mental underdevelopment. Remember the old saying 'girls mature faster than boys,'...I dont think guys ever 'catch up.'

I wonder why they dont install a webcam to monitor that area? Why wouldnt the college do something about this thats pro-active? Why not have a campus group monitor the area? Why isnt there more media such as movie, or web 'gotchas' going on by students and progressive student groups to bring awareness about this complete injustice that exists on their campus?

"You know, rally every person on campus who is sick of this shit to support this woman who made every attempt to fight off being victimized and then go sit in front of these assholes' homes with giant "SEXUAL OFFENDER" banners"

Banners? Why not an all-female gang that blasts these fuckers? Vigilantism is needed when society doesnt uphold justice. Why not channel a little Valerie Solanas?

I wonder how parents raise their sons? Its like we treat the symptoms but not the problems. We need to investigate men.

"Pardon me for being cynical, but the combination of testosterone, rape culture, and as MaryTracy9 mentioned, porn (and Girls Gone Wild vids) means young women should not count on any male (except maybe one who knows her personally, but even then...) "

Janetfaust,
Its not the testosterone, its the guy. I also think it has less to do with porn than either the type of porn (theres some misogynistic shit out there), or the male indoctrination by society and their upbringing that enables it. I know that alot of posters probably watch porn (not the misogynistic crap) and dont exactly feel the need to rape eachother. There is alot of lesbian porn as well. I dont see many lesbians raping one another.

"You know what would stop shit like this? Comprehensive sexuality and gender education from Kindergarten on......and puts responsibility on men to respect women in the first place."

FEMlily,
Exactly! How could a mother who is a member of the female gender reinforce this kind of negative upbringing into her son even knowing the oppressive repurcussions it will have on her own gender. They had a group discussion on raising feminist sons at my college to address the issue. I didnt go because I dont have kids, but wished I did simply to gain perspective on how parents routinely raise their sons.

"We have a stretch of our joint campus we call Rape Road."

Bubblewrapgenie,
Thats horrific. It would be smart to set up web cams to monitor the areas, that could be connected to a home computer. Even if its not associated with the university (I wouldnt trust the University anyways) it could be connected to a personal webpage. It would be good evidence to use against any assaulters. From what I remember from my media law class, if its in public, you can use it.

You are correct, JoeMax. I've never watched a Girls Gone Wild video myself (the adult store where I used to work didn't rent them, and I wasn't about to purchase one), but two of my male co-workers did, and both expressed disgust at how blatantly coercive Joe Francis and co. were with their "starlets". And neither of these guys was exactly a porn virgin.

And yet, maddeningly, GGW is widely considered tame -- "naughty" rather than "bad".

I don't think the solution is to go back to our "grandparents' porn", though, but to move forward and promote those filmmakers who recognize the desire for more women-friendly porn, and for contracts which are negotiated by sober parties.

(Sorry for the OT.)

This is ridiculous and it's all our faults. "We" need to change fast. We includes you!

Universities:

Stop faking crime stats to make your school look better than it really is. Campus security rent a cops are the fox guarding the hen house. Students know it.

Moms:

Stop abusing your sons in record numbers. 66% female perps is atrocious. These little boys will grow and do bad things to your kind because they resent you.

Dudes:

Since when has it become cool to pick on "girls" and in packs no less? Cut that crap out. Nature gave you extra strength for protection of humanity, not abuse of it.

Ladies:

Stop using sex as a weapon cuz it comes back to haunt you. It's the karma thing. Play fair.

Dads:

Teach your sons right and wrong. Be a friend to your daughter so they actually know how to be friends with and understand males. Both those things are important for civilization to progress.

Melissa,

You are a bad ass and I have nothing, but much love for you. If you need anything just ask. In 95 A similar event happened to a college friend/doormate of mine at a party, but she was fortunate enough that she could call out my name for me and my cohorts to deliver the ass beating of the drunken gropers.

@iqonefiftynine: I'm with you on most of this, but:

"Stop using sex as a weapon cuz it comes back to haunt you. It's the karma thing. Play fair."

Sorry, no. Even if we are to assume that there are legions of women "using sex as a weapon" (whatever that means), it's no excuse for assault. Telling a woman off, sure. Assaulting her, no.

Women do use sex to manipulate situations. Excuse the broad generalizations but some women do use sex to get their way for something other than sexual pleasure. Why back at Thanksgiving my supposedly progressive Berkeley grad best friend said to me, "Well maybe you shouldn't be putting out if your boyfriend isn't going to invite you to Thanksgiving dinner with his parents." And how many times have you heard, don't have sex too soon in a relationship or he won't commit! So I could definitely see how someone could think women use sex as a weapon... Because women DO use it to manipulate situations and its generally accepted that its okay for women to do so. (Thanks for excusing my generalizations!)

Not saying women should always have to say yes--- but if I had heeded my best friends advice I would've missed out on some amazing sex and the opportunity to approach this conflict as an equal using discussion (Which we did- worked out fine).

Sex as a weapon or manipulation is not an justification for assault. I agree. However, I think rape and assault is not so much about sexual satisfaction as it is about power control. The rapist feels a loss of power and his "solution" is to regain that power by controlling and taking it from the victim. Why sex? I mean, why not money, or humiliation? Maybe its because sex is an understood and accepted currency of power in our culture? It seems to make sense in Melissa's situation. The man who said "oh you think that is assault" felt that his power was threatened, so he proceeded to "show her". And the other guys cheered because their power was restored by his retaliation.

How do we make sex just about enjoyment and take away the power struggle?

I'm sick of hearing that this type of thing is continuing on and that onlookers think it is funny. I'm tired of seeing things get worse and then just complaining about it. It's time to take action. What can we seriously do in response to this? To me, we should seriously devote our brainpower to coming up with ways to act. I think that the email idea is great. Everyone should email everyone they know and ask them to email those UConn addies with complaints demanding action. To make things easier, maybe come up with a sample e-mail so that your friends wouldn't have to take the time to come up with their own if they are too busy.

I wrote in a entry a while back about my similar experiance being surounded by a bunch of teen aged males in paris who kept trying to pull up my skirt and kiss me and so forth(im glad I dont know enough French to know what they were saying, I dont want to know)

I'm not going to rewrite about it in detail, but its very similar as there were hundreds and hundreds of people on the streets of paris and in plain site I was attacked.

myself aside, I read and hear about so many of thease kinds of situations that it really makes you sick. One of the worst ones was a while back in NYC central park where a group of men sprawed down women who were walking by like a improv wet tshirt contest that excalated to trying to rip off clothing and fondling or worse of body parts so on so forth like a horible gauntlet they women had to pass through to get to the other side. (worst was police were in the area and did nothing)

the worst crime in the world to me, is standing by and not helping someone who is being hurt and are in need of assistance.

sometimes this kind of shit makes me wonder why do I bother to live in a world like this? I know good people exist but man, sometimes the bad overwhelms the good.

I feel physically sick by this...

augh

Also, you say you are trained in taekwondo. Is that a sport with minimal-rules full-contact sparing? If not, I wouldn't say it's the skill for this type of situation to begin with.

It is a traditional Korean martial art that derives from various older Korean martial arts, and focusses primarily on kicking. As for minimal rules and full contact, you're correct.

However, there is a very big difference between having the physical training you need to break an attacker's kneecap in a situation like this and having the psychological state that allows you to actually apply the training.

What I was referring to was the ability not to freeze. In the times I have been assaulted, my tendency has been almost reflexively to become inert. Clearly, Melissa Bruen does not have this problem, or has managed to overcome it.

That's what I was talking about.

It is clear to me from the posts that all you ladies want to do is complain and share and not actually try to get together and make use of your outrage and take action in some form. Nothing is ever going to change if you keep doing this ONLY. I think this fact is the most depressing of all, even more depressing than the story, dare I say, (which completely made me ill) and this makes me feel the most hopeless of all. That women would rather sit around in a "circle" and share and complain than actually just start focusing their minds collectively on how to show the world women deserve better and will get better and WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS. I am hereby abandoning this site.

It is clear to me from the posts that all you ladies want to do is complain and share and not actually try to get together and make use of your outrage and take action in some form. Nothing is ever going to change if you keep doing this ONLY. I think this fact is the most depressing of all, even more depressing than the story, dare I say, (which completely made me ill) and this makes me feel the most hopeless of all. That women would rather sit around in a "circle" and share and complain than actually just start focusing their minds collectively on how to show the world women deserve better and will get better and WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS. I am hereby abandoning this site.

She is a brilliantly strong woman. I hope that I would have half her courage is such ever happened to me.

God Damn It.

THIS is the sort of thing that makes me chuck all my non-violence training and belief out the window in a flash of rage and wish for a moment that all the women were armed.

Seriously, this makes me want to randomly punch strange men.

@ lo_fi_please: "That women would rather sit around in a "circle" and share and complain than actually just start focusing their minds collectively on how to show the world women deserve better and will get better and WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS. I am hereby abandoning this site."

Um. Have you actually spent time on this site? Have you missed the posts about conferences and meetings, people to contact and ways to take action? Also, I'm not really sure how you expect people to "focus their minds collectively" without some good old sharing (circle form or not). And yeah, we're pissed. There's going to be some complaining in there. Sorry to let you down, but I'm not really sure what you're calling for.

This story was absolutely disgusting. The crowd reaction is just horrifying. Good for Bruen for remaining so strong, during and after her attack. She seems amazing in that respect. I am from Connecticut and have many female friends who attended UConn. The fact that this could have happened to them makes me feel sick.

Shifter,

What part of "We includes you" didn't you understand?
Women are part of the problem! You worked around porn for chrissakes. How do you of
all people not get it?

HollwoodFem,

You are too cool and thanks for getting it...I love your insight, reflection and observation skills.
Deep ass post you
wrote there.

By the way the "Golden Bears" are sworn enemy
of the "Cardinal" so I surely will be retelling yourThanksgiving story.

As for your final question... it seems like only you, me and maybe some monk in the himalayas even cares about the answer. Too bad huh?

i have been a long time reader of this site but i have never commented. i felt i must comment on this post since i am currently a UConn student and was on the same trail Melissa was on when she was assaulted. i know Melissa personally and she is an amazing woman. when i first read her story in our school newspaper i was incredibly disturbed by what happened. every spring, UConn has a weekend called Spring Weekend. It is filled with carnivals, concerts and other University sponsored events for the students. it is also considered UConn's biggest party weekend of the year. starting thursday night and going through saturday night thousands of students and non-students make the walk from campus to off campus apartments where there are huge gatherings and lots of drinking. UConn is not in control of any of the parties and they do their best to protect students by bringing out all of our campus emergency services and bringing in extra state police. however, as other commenters have pointed out, our campus police do not have a very strong record when it comes to dealing with sexual assault and rape. As Melissa points out in her article, UConn has an amazing Women's Center on campus that runs many programs aimed at ending violence toward women. They also work with incoming freshman to make them aware of consent laws and provide other information regarding sexual assault. I am not in any way trying to deny the severity of or the disturbing nature of Melissa's attack, I am just trying to point out that the University does do a lot to combat violence towards women. I am still kind of in shock and disgusted that something that terrible happened at my school but I am so glad that Melissa is speaking out about her experience. By simply sharing her story on the front page of our newspaper, Melissa has done a lot to raise awareness on campus. She is an smart, talented, strong women and when she graduates in two days she will go on to do amazing things in life.

i have been a long time reader of this site but i have never commented. i felt i must comment on this post since i am currently a UConn student and was on the same trail Melissa was on when she was assaulted. i know Melissa personally and she is an amazing woman. when i first read her story in our school newspaper i was incredibly disturbed by what happened. every spring, UConn has a weekend called Spring Weekend. It is filled with carnivals, concerts and other University sponsored events for the students. it is also considered UConn's biggest party weekend of the year. starting thursday night and going through saturday night thousands of students and non-students make the walk from campus to off campus apartments where there are huge gatherings and lots of drinking. UConn is not in control of any of the parties and they do their best to protect students by bringing out all of our campus emergency services and bringing in extra state police. however, as other commenters have pointed out, our campus police do not have a very strong record when it comes to dealing with sexual assault and rape. As Melissa points out in her article, UConn has an amazing Women's Center on campus that runs many programs aimed at ending violence toward women. They also work with incoming freshman to make them aware of consent laws and provide other information regarding sexual assault. I am not in any way trying to deny the severity of or the disturbing nature of Melissa's attack, I am just trying to point out that the University does do a lot to combat violence towards women. I am still kind of in shock and disgusted that something that terrible happened at my school but I am so glad that Melissa is speaking out about her experience. By simply sharing her story on the front page of our newspaper, Melissa has done a lot to raise awareness on campus. She is an smart, talented, strong women and when she graduates in two days she will go on to do amazing things in life.

"Moms:

Stop abusing your sons in record numbers. 66% female perps is atrocious. These little boys will grow and do bad things to your kind because they resent you"

..."Nature gave you extra strength for protection of humanity, not abuse of it."

"Ladies:

Stop using sex as a weapon cuz it comes back to haunt you. It's the karma thing. Play fair."

Dads:

"Teach your sons right and wrong. Be a friend to your daughter so they actually know how to be friends with and understand males. Both those things are important for civilization to progress"

iqonfiftynine,
A. males dont abuse women because they themselves were abused. males abuse/act misogynistic due to gender privilege, indoctrination, and probably something biological within them. Its like youre blaming thousands of years of male mistreatment torwards women on mothers, when there is no evidence to even suggest that. How do you not know that its the fathers influence?

B.Men are bigger NOT to protect us poor little ol' womenfolk, but simply as an after effect from sperm generation. If theres no sperm, theres no reproduction. Also, if nature gave men extra strength supposedly for "protection" then why has it been used in such revolting manners? Why is it that the fathers never bother with the kids? It is the mother who overwhelmingly protects the kids, both physically and by being the actual ADULT in the house that acts as a solid influence for the kids. Nature and a mans body had nothing to do with his size, it is simply an aftereffect.

C. ..."stop using sex as a weapon"...seriously,... you put this on a feminist page? That smacks of old stereotypes of men being more sexual than women, so anything a woman does may incite a sexual response from men. Men are in control of whether or not they CHOOSE to engage in sex. Sexuality can never be used as a weapon. Not only was that response sexist, but it was one-sided. Men also use sex as a weapon.

D. And most confusingly of all, you tell FATHERS to teach sons how to behave torwards women. Why not the mother. I think she has more authority in that area. Especially since fathers make crappy examples of adults torwards their kids in comparison to the mother. New studies have also shown a father has more of a negative effect upon a son than if he is simply raised in a single mother household.

Seriously, why am I the only one to take iqonefiftynine to task for his blatant sexism?

Moms:

Stop abusing your sons in record numbers. 66% female perps is atrocious. These little boys will grow and do bad things to your kind because they resent you.

Where did you get that stat?
Do you know how many girls are abused by their dads and/or stepdads? Not only physical abuse, but sexual abuse. Yet you don't see women commiting crimes against random men in order to "get back at the male sex."
If your argument were at all relevant, it'd be WOMEN committing acts of violence against MEN.

GopherII,

I find you to be incoherent. You wrote two opposite maxims in the same paragraph... "Sexuality can never be used as a weapon. Men also use sex as a weapon." Please check out the recent thread on the Dairy Queen commercial. Hopefully that will help you "get it" on point C.

SarahMC,

I got my stats from personal experience and government agencies.

My grandmother was a foster parent, and I dated a sociology major/social worker in college. For the record most abuse crime is not random as is indicated by racist propaganda on TV. In addition, the most common form of child abuse is by an "intimate" and that usually means mom in the data. As defined, by the DOJ abuse means physical, verbal, emotional or sexual, so don't play semantics with "violence".

No my argument was not a dichotomy. MY post explains both that sexuality can never be used as a weapon, and also that if YOU were to believe what you believe in order to come to the sexist INCHERENT perspective you did, then you would also come to the conclusion that MEN use sex as a weapon too.

iqonefiftynine,
So you actually believe women abuse their sons MORE than fathers? Is this the scapegoat you brush male misogyny under? The alibi you always pull out?

iqonefiftynine,
Do you believe male misogyny is due to "female abuse?"

ugh. this made me feel so gross.

just like hearing about a rape at a popular student bar in my city, where the woman was allegedly drugged, raped, and left in the washroom, where she woke up, locked in the establishment, the next morning. my source said there was suspect that it was an 'inside job', after my inference about why the staff wouldn't have aided her when finding her, while closing up.

just when you're trying to have faith in humanity.

ugh. this made me feel so gross.

just like hearing about a rape at a popular student bar in my city, where the woman was allegedly drugged, raped, and left in the washroom, where she woke up, locked in the establishment, the next morning. my source said there was suspect that it was an 'inside job', after my inference about why the staff wouldn't have aided her when finding her, while closing up.

just when you're trying to have faith in humanity.

littlej,
Thats really sad. I hope justice happens, even if by vigilantism.

BTW, I'm sure the guys that did that, werent abused by their mom (ahem...iqonefiftynine).

iqonefiftynine, you got your 66% statistic from your "personal experience?" WTF?

Look. I actually when to the Health and Human Services website to find some *actual* data.

Almost all children live with their mothers, whether in two-parent homes or with single moms. More and more children live without their fathers. So it makes sense that abused children are more often abused at the hands of their mothers; they spend a lot more time with their mothers. Your dad can't abuse you when he lives in another state. Even those children who live with both parents spend more time with their mothers than their fathers.

So that clears up your deceitful, simplistic statement about those awful, abusive mothers.

But anyway, my retort still stands. My "personal experience" tells me that a whole hell of a lot of little girls are sexually victimized by adult male relatives. But female-on-male stranger violence is not a big epidemic. That you'd blame WOMEN for rape culture is offensive, illogical, and disgusting.

Iqofonefiftynine sounds exactly like the troll over at Jezebel and even has some of the same talking points.

Okay, I have some things to say about rape that I doubt many people will like. To keep things current I will respond to the some of the critics of my last post on the less recent rape-bracelet thread here.

One thing I mentioned is that centering on rape w/out a larger view of reducing all crime is doomed to failure. That being the case the only reason that rape is brought up again & again by feminists must be the demonization of men.

Somebody responded (loosely if I remember right) "you're posting on a rape thread on a feminist site, shut up."

My point about rape-as-demonizing-men isn't limited to this website. When the grandpoobah's of the feminist movement utter (braniac gems) like:"as long as some men rape women, it's a system by which all men keep all women down" I have a leg to stand on when I talke about all the rape brewhaha just being a technique to demonize men.

The simple fact is RAPE IS A CRIMINAL ACT COMMITTED BY CRIMINALS not by the entire male gender.

This is proven by the 30% sexual assault rate that lesbians report.

Let's look at the three main types of rape(that I hear talked about anyway): stranger rape, date rape, and acquaintance rape.

In the case of stranger rape I think/hope most people on this boar would agree that it's a criminal act committed by people with a criminal mind, not by all men. Done on stranger rape.

Regarding date rape, and acquaintance rape I have a few points to make about why I think it occurs:
A. shoddy prison system that doesn't do anything to really rehabillitate, B. large segment of population (men & woman, but men for this discussion) with undiagnosed mental disease, C. the particularly anemic system for male mental disease (as a brief example lake of mental care for veterans, effects of ptsd looks a lot like just bad behavior: alcoholism, and drug use) but in even a larger sense if the mental health industry was working harder to help men, they wouldn't be 80% of all suicides once again the disposibility of men harms WOMEN because these men not getting help may harm women, D the "hookup" and raunch culture that says if a man isn't "getting his share" he's a wimp or faggot, E the female facilitation of the aggressive male (and particularly the sexually aggressive male).

I'm sure that most of those points won't stir up any controversy with the exception of the last point I made about women facilitating the creation of sexually aggressive males. I will try to lay out my thoughts in as straight forward a fashion as possible.
I went to see Iron Man tonight with my wife. In the movie Iron Man is actually Tony Stark a weapons developer. There is an interesting scene in which a typically angry white female reporter is accusing him of being a war-profiteer. When she asks him if he's ever lost an hour of sleep, he says "I'm prepared to lose a couple with you."

What's interesting is (despite her apparent disdain of him as a political person) she ends up in bed with him. I know one of the pet peeves of feminists is "Girls gone wild" and other soft & hard core pornography and the whole idea of women as meat or sexual objects (whatever that means).

But what gets left out of this equation is the woman who treats herself as meat. I'm not a big barhound, but I have been in a nightclub a couple times in my life. The fact is is that their IS a significant portion of women who go to clubs dressed like $200 vegas whores and (not only consent but RELISH) being "meat on the table in front of a pack of hungry wolves".
Everywhere the male libido is prodded and poked by women.
Now this doesn't make it okay to rape, but let's dig a little further.

Item: I remember reading an article about a Mike Tyson interviewer commenting how all these young girls were trying to get into Mike Tyson's room. And this was AFTER his rape case.

Item: why do so many women throw themselves at gangsta-rappers? What's the appeal? Are murderers HOT (for these women?)
Item:
I remember seeing some or other reality show in which they were showing a nightclub. This really attractive woman (in extremely revealing clothing) was at the bar. This really tall black guy grabs her arm (fairly roughly), she gets this mean look like she's really going to bitch him out. She see's it's some famous basketball star and INSTANTANEOUSLY transforms her expression to one of big smiled admiration and lust and says "hey you!"

The fact that a SIGNIFICANT PORTION of women are so F'd in the head that (when pursuing sex with them) the "no means no" messages gets transformed to "no means no, unless you're cute, or a "bad boy", or a sports star, or loaded" drastically changes things (and sets these guys up for EXTREME dysfunctionalty).

For one thing women who behave this way (which coincidentally are probably the women MOST likely to go to pickup spots) are encouraging the behavior of constantly "pushing the envelope" in regards to the "No" message.

The women who say NO, then give in to sex (because of whatever reason) are building these guys up into dysfunctional men.

Then when a woman says "NO" and really means it, OF COURSE he's going to use the same strategy of "pushing it" because it worked with the last 2,10,60, or 600 women that he laid.

In this instance, these dysfunctional women are doing to these guys something similar to what a chivalrous judge might do to a women. Let's say a judge keeps letting a woman off for drunk driving (because she's attractive or reminds him of his daughter or is convinced she's remorseful), this woman is going to get a dysfunctional view of consequences until BAM! She kills somebody.

Now, let's say that in addition to getting no sentence or fine (for drunk driving) the judge gives her $5000 EVERY TIME SHE'S caught! THIS is what these dysfunctional women are setting up with these guys that they fuck (because they're hot or rich or bad boys) right after they say no!

Then you mix in my other points about No prison rehab, No (or very little comparatively) mental healthcare for men, The hookup mentality, and men's libido's constantly being enticed in almost every media and by a great deal of women in public it creates a real problem.

This constant harping about "rape being a tool by which all men hold all women down" is total bullshit. Rape is a criminal or dysfunctional act, and all of media, culture, and (american) society repeats this over and over.

Lastly, this view of trying to reduce the complicated system of human attraction and sex to a traffic computer (you can't hit her bumper her signal was off bzzzt!) is insane. There is a lot of non-verbal and verbal cues that go on between the sexes.

As long as feminism A) fails to view rape in terms of reducing all crimes, and B) fails to realize how the disposability of men harms women by creating brutes (through non-rehabilitating prisons and lack of mental health care for men) and C) that YES there IS female culpability and facillitating in the formation of these guys who commit date & acquaintance the feminist efforts will be doomed to (what?) FAILURE.

Sorry last sentence SHOULD have read:
IS female culpability and facillitating in the formation of these guys who commit date & acquaintance rape the feminist efforts will be doomed to (what?) FAILURE.

"The women who say NO, then give in to sex (because of whatever reason) are building these guys up into dysfunctional men."

So it's up to women to say stop no matter how many times it takes until the guy realizes she doesn't want it? If she only says stop a couple times and then "lets" him have sex with her she is making him dysfunctional? If he is not listening to her, sounds like he was already "dysfunctional".

"One thing I mentioned is that centering on rape w/out a larger view of reducing all crime is doomed to failure."

Why? Acquaintance rape is likely the only crime that man will do and he probably does not see himself as a rapist/criminal. How would you propose reducing crime in a way that would reduce acquaintance rape as well?

"B. large segment of population (men & woman, but men for this discussion) with undiagnosed mental disease,"

It varies but one study found 7% of men admitted to raping or trying to rape someone. Do you think according to that study 3.5% of the population has an undiagnosed mental disease?

lyndorr wrote:
"Why? Acquaintance rape is likely the only crime that man will do and he probably does not see himself as a rapist/criminal. How would you propose reducing crime in a way that would reduce acquaintance rape as well?"

As long as a large and significant portion of women seek out brutish men and reward them with a greater-than-average amount of sex, a large portion of men will exhibit brutish behavior.

As long as a large portion of women reward men for sexual persistence, the more men will persist in the face of "no" which thanks to the dozens of dysfunctional women he's slept with will be meaningless to him. Watch any rap video. See anything significant? Why are so many very beautiful women in rap videos (or on their arms as "ho's")? Their can be only one relevant answer. The reason why rap stars have beautiful women clinging to them can only be because they have a much larger selection of women approaching them (compared to John Q Public) that they can pick and choose only beautiful women.

Can violence be alluring to a great many dysfunctional women? A lot is said on feminist boards about violent men, but nothing is ever said about how these men are socially/sexually rewarded by women.

You can see this in more benign manifestations with rock stars and sports stars.

But when you have 10-30 women throwing themselves at rap stars known to have killed people WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT WOMEN?

He's a killer, but he's drawn THIRTY PLUS dysfunctional women that all think he's HOT!

What's wrong? This is the same "enlightened" message feminists have been spouting for years about anorexia is caused by men "selecting" only skinny women, and feminists saying women choose to become prostitutes or porn-stars because daddy didn't show her enough love, too much love (or the wrong kind of love), or wasn't there at all.

Considering the huge addiction this country has with the female body is it really such an unfathomable message that women's "selections" can cause bad behavior in men?

Just because a message is SHITTY (and a damn bitter pill to swallow too) doesn't mean it's not TRUE!

I thought liberals were supposed to be "open-minded"? Just keep putting your hands over your ears and humming. Just keep demonizing all men for the actions of a few nutjobs (without EVER wondering how the nutjobs "got" that way), it's worked great for feminists so far.

"(without EVER wondering how the nutjobs "got" that way)"

Researchers HAVE wondered how they got that way and far as I've read there is not a clear consensus. If we knew I think we'd be further along on the challenge of making things better.

"As long as a large portion of women reward men for sexual persistence, the more men will persist in the face of "no" which thanks to the dozens of dysfunctional women he's slept with will be meaningless to him."

And what makes men persist in the first place? Sounds like you think women are responsible for "fixing" these men by saying stop until a man stops or else she is dysfunctional. And you are assuming these men will listen to women as long as the woman persists.

I have no comment about the rap stars. Society has an unusual and possibly for some dysfunctional admiration for famous people and I don't understand it.

As far as, "Can violence be alluring to a great many dysfunctional women?", have you talked to many abused women who found the violence alluring? I think you greatly oversimplify the dynamics of an abusive relationship.

Is there any real benefit to arguing with someone who has been very clear that he considers rape the woman's fault? It seems to me that rape apologetics really have no place in this discussion.

No, the oversimplification comes on your part. It's a well-known equation called "women good, man bad". I'm trying to broaden your mind on HOW these guys "get" this way.

Hey, feminists are the first people who introduced the concept that adults aren't responsible for their actions by blaming women's bad behavior on men's "selections", not such an "enlightened" concept when the shoe's on the other foot is it?

Lyndorr said:
"have you talked to many abused women who found the violence alluring? I think you greatly oversimplify the dynamics of an abusive relationship."

Well, now you're switching it up. You're talking about abused women (or possibly women in stranger rape cases) I thought we were discussing why dysfunctional men don't view acquaintance rape or date rape a "crime".

Now you're moving onto a different topic to thwart my supposition on date and acquaintance rape.

No I haven't talked to abused women, and I doubt that they would find it alluring.

However, the fact still stands that a SUBSTANTIAL group of women ARE choosing violent men to have sex with. In the case of stranger rape (and it could probably cover abused women too) I already talked about the A) no real rehab in prison (i.e. disposability of men unleashes brutes among us), B) no decent mental health care of men (if there was they wouldn't be committing suicide at 4x the rate of women), C) the raunch culture, D) the constant enticing (in media & real life by women) of the male libido.
You know there is (what?) 200,000 vets going to possibly return in the next couple of years. We treat our vets like crap--vet hospitals are way underfunded. Once again the disposability of men will ultimately hurt women too as these vets with PTSD will find no treatment.

When the war ends how much do you want to bet rape cases are going to climb?
Maybe if we cared more about men killing themselves (or killing other men) instead of ONLY raising a stink when they hurt/kill children or women, we could reduce and prevent a MULTITUDE of different crimes.

But what we see is that treating men as disposable dogs of war (not to disposable dogs of construction, sanitation, sports, and law enforcement) comes back to haunt us when the dogs of war (themselves brutalized) attack the wrong people.

The "man bad, woman good" paradigm is going to have to end IF you really want to do something about rape and other crimes.

Or you can close your ears eyes and mind (to the larger issue of society and WOMEN rewarding violent, sexually persistent men) continue with more of the same. Hey, don't let me stand in the way of your stagnation.

You know Martin Luther King JR. said:"Do not look down on anybody unless you're willing to give them a hand up."

Could one of the keys to rape be to end the disposability of men?! Don't you think that anybody ready to commit acquaintance or date rape isn't a healthy person? Lesbians report a 30% sexual assault rate from women. So obviously rape is NOT about testosterone or "man bad", but about dysfunctionality.

No, Elise there is no point. So I will just say two more sentences. You are assuming women can identify men who will rape and talking like they choose to be with men who will rape. I wonder how accurate you would be at identifying which men would rape and which wouldn't.

I just want to note that, as a man, I am deeply ashamed that men behaved as they did toward this woman. Frankly, I find it pathetic and incredibly disturbing. I think, if it is possible, that there needs to be a new generation of male feminists out there. Men generally need to appear powerful, often no matter what the cost. This situation provides disturbing evidence of the terrible ends to which men go, sacrificing all humanity for a fleeting mirage of power. The time needs to come that defending women, whether it's self-defense or the defense of others, must be esteemed. It doesn't have to be chivalry, just valued.

I was so disturbed by this story that I read (or at least skimmed) every comment here, even ones I found offensive or trite. A great deal of time has been spent debating whether it is men or women responsible for "creating" rapists and whether or not a "no" from some women is a mixed message.

It might be possible that a woman who says no to sex initially but "gives in" (to use a very negative term) is herself confused by cultural and social pressures that call her a whore/slut if she doesn't resist. Or she could herself have been abused and therefore developed a predisposition for risky, self-destructive behavior.

Whatever the cause or result, she will herself be responsible for her own actions, good or ill. The point here is that men, also, are responsible for their own actions.

Maybe it is shitty to say no when you mean yes, or sleep with an asshole (as if it's always possible to recognize one), but the point is that shitty does not necessarily mean illegal. Likewise, being an asshole isn't illegal, but being a rapist, is.

A man is responsible for his own actions, so if he sleeps with a woman who is confused about consent, it may not be rape, but it is up to him to make sure it isn't.

The problem with rape, including acquaintance rape isn't power or control or even mental defect as much as when men feel that they are entitled to woman's bodies.

A father feels that it is acceptable to use his daughters for gratification. A thug takes out his rage by raping a woman. A group of young men pull down a woman's shirt as if her resistance means nothing. These are different people from different backgrounds, with very different emotional states behind their crimes -- but they all fail to recognize female autonomy.

And isn't recognizing female autonomy what feminism is all about? It is for me, anyway.

SarahMC

Several things....

Personal experiences can be broad. They are not explicitly narrow, unless you are 15 and even then it depends. You also conveniently left out my government agency comment.

Looks like you found out I was right about mom being the biggest perp when it comes to domestic abuse. You should ask yourself why you thought it was different.

We don't live in a rape culture. We live in an abuse culture in which rape is one of the forms of abuse.

With the exception of some percentage of hetero-collegiate date rapes, characterizing rape as a "mens entitlement to woman's bodies" issue doesn't make sense. Your description surely doesn't apply to Debra Lafave like cases, prison assaults, "gang" attacks, same sex pedophilia or several other categories.

I also don't get the "recognize female autonomy" comment. If a woman poisons her husband, is really about her "falure to recognize male autonomy" or about "greed" as she ultmately hopes to collect insurance money?