This doesn't quite fit, but I'll always remember being approached by a boy who knew I was a Feminist (oh! The horror!) when I was dressed up in a nice frock for a party:

"OH! I see you have gone against your PRINCIPLES."

I didn't really know where to start. Poor lamb, he was the son of a Tory MP and had been to Eton. I think it was his first exposure to the scaries of feminism.

The Led Zeppelin font. HOT.

The whole real phenomenon of feminism being used as a pick up line is what keeps me from getting my boyfriend the "Feminist Chicks Dig Me" teeshirt.

Well, that, and I'm not really the "gilb teeshirt" gifter type.

Sigh! Here we go.

OK, ok: guys sometimes lie about things to get women to sleep with them. That nasty habit predates feminism, oh, I don't know -- by several million years or so. Some of us lie about our political beliefs, our favorite books, movies, etc. (remember the movie "Groundhog Day" when Bill Murray memorized women's likes/dislikes for future bedding opportunities?)

And I'll let you in on a secret: women sometimes lie to men about things, too.

The moral: lying is wrong, in different degrees, whether it's about feminism or Catholicism or one's views on global warming. But as a guy, I suggest there is no special need to have a separate "nice guys (TM)" category when it comes to feminism. That's kind of -- oh, holier than thou, isn't it?

Feminist cred of convenience is not feminist cred. Using 'it' as a pickup line or putting it out there in the service of some other (basically selfish) end is meaningless.

Feminist cred (for a pro-feminist guy) truly means something in two different circumstances. The first is when you're around strangers. When nobody you will probably ever see again is around, will/can you keep to the convictions you claim?

The second circumstance, maybe overlapping with the first, is when you're in a group of people (i.e. strangers or not) and you know that if, as a guy, you stand up for feminist principles, you're going to get stick for it -- not a real man, have an extra X chromosome, etc. -- and maybe more than stick.

I know the first thing that someone who reads this will say is that aren't you just talking up yourself as a pro-feminist guy -- the exception that proves the rule. I guess in a way I am, but I think my point still holds. Namely, that the proof of a truly pro-feminist guy is not when things are happy and easy, or when you're trying to get laid. The proof is when the chips are down, the argument(s) is/are heated, and you're in the minority.

The great part comes after, when you can still look yourself in the mirror and know that they're the ones missing out by not being pro-feminist.

Amen. In college, I was the only guy working at our women's resource center, and guys were always joking about me doing it to meet girls. I even had a (female!) professor ask me if I was "one of the resources."

Which I would have had a better answer for if I wasn't, ahem, dating someone I met at the center.

Feminist cred of convenience is not feminist cred.

Well said. And let me e clear - I'm not trying to disparage the amazing feminist and pro-feminist men out there! Just noting that there is indeed a breed of progressive dude who expects to get laid for his progressiveness. :)

When an RA in my dorm (about a thousand years ago) found out I was taking a women's studies course, he went out of his way to tell me:

"Yeah, I took one of those courses once cuz I thought it'd be a good way to meet chicks, cuz, you know, I'd be the only guy, but they turned out to be a bunch of bitches!"

I can't imagine why his plan failed.

I love the picture. :)I have to admit: since I started college, the majority of the women I've dated are ones I've met at feminist events and conferences or through my women's studies classes.

But on that note, worthy of discussion is the level of comfort women feminists feel about men's involvement in the movement. What degree of involvement is going over the line?

This speaks a lot, I think, for safe space. A lot of my male friends and I have this discussion about how much support is too much support within the feminist community, and whether there are things that, although we support, we oughtn't get ourselves involved and whether we're making fellow feminists uncomfortable because it might seem as though we're in it for sexual incentives. Sometimes, I still have a guilty feeling about dating within our community, because somehow, it seems inappropriate.

I'd also like to hear from the men who post on this board (UCLABody Image, Hugo, Mike, SailorDude) about this ...where the hell as UCLABodyImage been?

Story:
I first met the beau two years ago over drinks with friends. Slightly tipsy beau says to me, "I'm SUCH a feminist." In my Catholic Disneyland conservative college atmosphere, this was a breath of fresh air. We've been together ever since.

And, yes, he has the knowledge and action to back it up.

well a slight variation on just a pickup line, but I've dated a couple of assholes who regularly expressed interest in gender issues and women's experiences on the intellectual level, and had a lot of female friends. But it's like somehow when you throw sex in the mix, people don't understand/don't care what "appropriate" behavior would be...

MikeT: That story is hilarious.

Noah: I think you kind of miss the point. Yeah, there are liars of all stripes. But there is a certain breed of self-declared "progressive" men who expect accolades for their beliefs and feel pretty entitled to get laid because of them. It's gross, and we're talking about THOSE type of men, not all men in general. And frankly, why the hell can't we have "categories" that generalize about the types of people we won't want to date? Or share funny pick-up stories? No, it's NOT holier-than-thou. I'm really not even sure where you're getting that at all.

You know, I appreciate all the deep (and, uh, somewhat offended) commentary from our allies here, but I was really hoping this would be a fun thread. Maybe that's just because I'm having a really rough day, though.

I will fun this back up: I've never in my life been picked up by a guy trying to use his feminism to woo me (I'm willing though! I'm totally willing! Use your feminism and woo me!)

But, I am 100% automatically intrigued by men who listen to music I consider to be feminist music. If I had no interest in them whatsoever, the second they say "Ani Difranco" I'm willing to scope them out some more and see who they are and what they're about.

My boyfriend is a feminist-in-progress who hadn't really thought about or processed feminist ideas and theories before me, which is fine.

So here's my funny story. We're out with a group of friends and I'm talking to one of them, a dude, about Ani Difranco and how much we LOOOOVVEEEE her.

Turns out, the boyfriend was getting a bit jealous. On the way home he kind of starts ragging me about this guy and tries to throw out "Guys don't listen to Ani Difranco! He was just saying that to flirt with you!"

Hahahaha. :D He needn't be worried though, he's coming with me to Ani in June!

As a man in college involved in feminist organizations, I get/got so much crap for all my guy friends. The gay jokes, the not-a-real-man jokes, the he's-just-going-pick-up-chicks jokes.

If you find a real male feminist, a guy going to women's groups, or your women's centers, etc., etc., and he's not some creep trying to pick you up, try to treasure that guy, because it takes a lot of guts to do it.

Only if I'd known all feminists love Ani DiFranco. :( I told a feminist last week that while I like her lyrics (Not a Pretty Girl, Letter to a John), I don't dig her music. I don't think it was appreciated. One time - at a DiFranco concert, a dude hit on me, and I didn't even realized it. I thought the drinks were because he liked me as an ally.

I'm not sure if it was intended as a pick-up tactic, but the night I met one of my ex-boyfriends, he definitely tried to show off his feminist street-cred by talking about Andrea Dworkin and Le Tigre.

There's nothing like mis-quoting Dworkin ('all intercourse is rape') to woo a girl. Sigh.

/snark.

"feminist and pro-feminist men"

can someone explain the difference to me?

Also, one of my favourite pictures of a friend of mine is a shot of both of us sitting at a bar, reading. She has "The war on Women" while I'm studiously pouring over "how to attract and seduce a woman (or a bunch at once!)"

If a man is eagerly relating his feminist "cred" in an attempt to get you to like him, consider the possibility that he is both a feminist and a man with a desire to f*** you.

A base desire to get laid, even if that means using feminist "cred," is human and reasonable to me.

If the woman you want is a feminist, then it's natural to play it up. Men who are feminists put up with a lot of sh*t from feminists who want to "test" them. Instead of feeling like comrades in the struggle, as it were, men in the movement are made to feel that their motives may be suspect. I've seen it happen to male feminist friends from my female fem friends.

It's a really lousy thing to do. If a man wants a "one night stand" with another feminist, he should be made to feel like an impostor?

Feminist men are allies, even if they have a raging libido.

The only caveat, of course, is if a man is genuinely telling you what he thinks you want to hear, as a feminist. Even this is not a crime, it's just obnoxious.

We feminists can be a pain in the ass sometimes.

I'm a big girl, physically and age wise, and every time I go to a political event or am around feminists I don't know, I'm humiliated at how eager all these women are to tell me how beautiful I am. This is condescending and embarrassing. Maybe I'm not trying to be sexy or beautiful, and I know I'm overweight and that I'm attractive.

In my experience, Feminists "profile" other Feminists. The rating system sort of goes like this:

1. Overweight women
2. Women of color
3. Women in general, particularly poor women, but that's hard to see.
4. GLBT
5. Men in general.
6. Handsome white men in particular.

As a Feminist, I'm saying that you instantly have "cred" at a higher level if you are higher on the scale.

In other words, NOBODY judges more by class, race and gender than a Feminist. And as a Feminist, it disgusts me.

Now we're supposed to go interrogate the Fem men in our lives to make sure they're not just SAYING what they think we want to hear? It's madness. And a bit paranoid. We're big girls, we can judge for ourselves.

The sexist implication that all men are devious is just so tired.

I've never been hit on by a guy who was using feminism, but I have gotten into discussions about feminism with men who do not consider themselves feminists. It's always interesting to get a non-feminist view on things because it helps you develop your own thoughts a bit more, and possibly educate someone else. However, I must admit I can be wary of men who just want to discuss feminism with me. It's the whole concept of "if I seem like I'm super interested in what she's saying, maybe she'll f*ck me because it seems like I care".

When I joined the French Club despite not speaking a word of French, that was about sex. When I joined a feminist organization, it was because the co-directors recruited me because they needed my particular set of skills and I needed the scholarship hours they could pay me to use them (graphic design, for the dirty-minded among you). And because I was already a feminist.

But I think PopFem is right in that you can't completely rule sex out as a motivation in anything that human beings do. For instance, my taking the job at the Women's Resource Center was definitely affected by the fact that one of the directors was attractive and clearly into me (the other co-director told me). Similarly, the fact that they chose me for the job was definitely affected by the fact that one of the co-directors was interested in me, and the other was sleeping with a good friend of mine and wanted someone to go on double-dates with.

But I'm not going to be offended by any suggestions that my motives were impure because I was 22 years old at the time and my 37 year old self knows for damn sure that my motives weren't pure. Whose motives are?

Libby, I can promise you that the number of men who think "if I seem like I'm super interested in what she's saying, maybe she'll f*ck me because it seems like I care" approaches zero.

Our approach is more often "If I talk really loud about what I think she's interested in and interrupt her a lot and tell her why all her opinions about these things she knows a lot more about than I do are wrong, maybe she'll f*ck me because it seems like I care."

It never works, but for some reason we keep trying it.

This issue came up for me in trying to respond to one particular Match.com personal. The woman had included a couple of lines about being a feminist in her ad.

On one hand, in responding to these ads, you want to show you actually read them and are responding to that particular person and not just spamming people On the other hand if I wrote back claiming to be a feminist, I was afraid of coming off as the type of poseur everyone is talking about.

In the end, I just mentioned in passing the type of blogs I read including feminist ones in the list and left it at that. I don't know if I ended up coming off as a poseur anyway, since I did not hear back from the woman-- though that could be for any number of reasons.

So how does one convey in an online dating context that you find that a woman stating that she is a feminist is a attractive characteristic without coming off as a complete phony?

Antinome, I wouldn't worry about appearing as though you're trying to get in her pants, or that you're posing, simply because, let's face it, we feminists, whether male or female, don't exactly have thousands of dates rushing to us because of our feminisms anyway, unless they themselves are feminists. What I mean is that there's almost about a stigma about us that non-feminists are scared of by us. So, anyone who gets all starry-eyed about our feminisms - be they male or female - is probaly a feminist, and thus, probably will work out fine. That's probably another reason you hear the sentiments of how feminism is an incestuous community. Yeah, we date one another because there's a shortage of us.

Plus, since online dating is more about actually getting to know a person than an immmediate lay, you showing her your interest in feminism is more about your convictions, than your penis. At least that's what I think anyway. I mean - what guy, looking for a lay, has the patience to talk to a woman thousands of miles away, if he's looking for a lay. He goes to the bar for that.

While watching the Emmy's a year or so ago, during the initial phase of dating, my beau turns to me and earnestly says, "I'm SO GLAD Ugly Betty won!" I just had to shake my head and laugh...

Why did you turn your head and laugh?

Man puts on football, he's a stereotypical ogre.

And if a man likes Ugly Betty? A poseur trying to get laid.

No wonder so many people radiate away from radical feminism.

This reminds me, for various reasons, of when I was talking to my ex-bf (still a good friend). He's a Feminist (we went to Feminist Expo 2000 in Baltimore and saw Eve E. do Vagina Monologues!), Socialist and political activist, or was moreso than now.

Anyway, he once said that Feminists need to embrace the victories we've had, specifically universal suffrage.

After that, he underwent a withering attack from the three of us, my gf's and I. We argued that it was a minor victory, and that most of the "Iron-Jawed Angels" fought only for white womens' right to vote.

Basically, his argument is that it was still a victory, and by not acknowledging it as such some radical Feminists are cutting themselves and other Fems off from a rich history of Hell-Raising.

Scholarly social analysis is one thing, but politically we must be crystal clear regarding what we want, and take pride in what Feminists and just thoughtful, good people have done in the past.

I think he was right. People radiate away from the Feminist label because so many Feminists endlessly complain, generalize about men and women, and judge their asses off.

It's a shame.

IMHO, using the common ground of feminism to cozy up to someone is only wrong if it's a lie. It's not inherently wrong (or even anti-feminist) to "use" one's feminist status in this way; it doesn't become wrong until it involves deceiving someone.

Also, assholes come in all varieties. Being a sincere feminist and being a grade A asshole are not necessarily incompatible. This could be an explanation for the experience that Jessica described. If he was an asshole who happened to be a sincere feminist, then his quoting of Judith Butler doesn't affect his asshole status one way or another. Or he could have just been a lying sack of shit. She said "the biggest assholes" without also specifying whether the people in question were also sexist, so we don't really know at this point.

One of the first times the boy and I were hanging out in Milwaukee (hometown at the time), we went to the local feminist bookstore and he was looking around and turned to me and said "I'm surprised they don't have more eco-feminism books here" -- then sat down and started reading Cunt.
Then we had a conversation about meat and vegetarianism and women...
Worked on me ;)

I haven't had someone fake being a feminist to hook up with me - though I have thought a guy was more liberal minded at first, only to find out later he wasn't.
I'd think it would be fairly easy to tell if it was all for show, though.

Seems to me that the OP was originally referring to what I prefer to call "intellectual windbags". There's a big difference between a guy who lives like a feminist and a guy who has just read a bunch of books about it. MikeT already gave a great synopsis of what that second guy is like.

My rule of thumb is if the guy is hitting on you and busts out the 1000 page thesis without prompting, then he's probably more air than substance in a lot of ways.

I shook my head (as opposed to 'turning it away') and laughed in a good-natured way. He hadn't watched Ugly Betty before, he'd only heard my explanations as to why i thought it was (pop) culturally significant. So, on the one hand, i was amused & surprised that he jumped on board with my feministy critique so readily. On the other hand, it was also pretty easy to read the moment more cynically - as a cheezy come-on from a guy who hadn't personally engaged with feminism before dating me, but who liked and wanted to impress me. And that cracked me up. Him too.

I'm going to confess that my feminism has gotten me both laid and into serious relationships. I wouldn't say it's a pick-up line, but it is certainly part of the "dance" men and women do, trying to woo eachother. I don't see anything wrong with that, because I really am a committed feminist who argues for feminist issues all the time, regardless of whether a girl is on the line.

For me, it's not any different than talking about my favorite movies or books on date. This is who I am, and if it can make her like me, why shouldn't I do it? (I realize that this isn't exactly what Jessica was talking about, but it factors into the "using feminism to get girls" issue).

I should also add that I'm naturally drawn to feminists. If I hear a girl passionately arguing feminist issues to three of her male friends, standing up and not taking any shit, I'm immediately attracted (those who've met my mother would argue this is a Freudian thing...), and the woman usually appriciates me stepping in on her side. Which I'm more than happy to do :)

A guy in a bar came up to me once and upon seeing I was wearing a Sleater-Kinney shirt told me, "Oh cool. I mean, I'm a feminist. I'm totally into women making music or whatever. But I don't really like them. I prefer people that can play their instruments." And then he went on about how great Minor Threat is! But they really don't know how to play their instruments, and SK is about a million times more talented than them, but apparently it's cool for them to suck because they're men. I would have been less annoyed if he just admitted, "I'm a sexist jerk and I don't like Sleater-Kinney because I don't think women know how to play music." At least that would be honest.

Ok, sorry...I had to rant.

I feel like there are a lot of women who are attracted to a guy if they get a sense of a feministic mentality around him. My gf says she liked me because she saw that I cared about girls and their values and had a lot of friends who are women. That wasn't my intention, to represent myself as such, but I used it to my advantage. I am also an egomaniac , however, so I don't know how much she was attracted to that more than the feminism aspect...

Sidenote: Jess, come back to Ithaca when I DON'T have a prelim during your talk :(

My always favorite "feminist pick up line" is... different than a pick up late, per-say...

I always love the men who claim to be feminists, sitting in my sociology or women's and gender studies classes...
There is always a disclaimer "I'm one of the good ones" and then... inevitably they dont know or recognize one of the simplest ways to be progressive.

HOW ABOUT YOU SHUT THE FUCK UP?

I hate men who claim to be feminists, but ALWAYS take up more than enough space in the classroom. I'm sick of hearing you douche bags talk. Why dont you let the women speak their minds? especially if you're as progressive as you claim to be.

SHESH!!

far from using feminism to pick girl up, more often I get turned off because they are not feminist enough.

And for a cool but obscure song from 1982, check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it4Vgh0xOs8

A few comments:

"Everybody does it" is not a good defense. If you're lying in order to try to get someone to have sex with you, when that person wouldn't if he/she knew the truth, there's a problem. See this post at Feminist Law Profs arguing for the categorization of "fraudulent inducement of sex" as rape. (Of course, that gets people equating "claiming to be someone's spouse" with "wearing makeup or flattering clothes.")

There's absolutely a need to call out the Nice Guy(TM), and a need to have a label for the behavior, because it is a specific set of behaviors, and a gendered one. I don't think the Nice Guy is necessarily the same as the fake feminist (Fauxminist?), though - the Nice Guy(TM) says he respects women, but he can take the mainstream attitude of "I'm not a feminist but." (The Nice Guy(TM) is pretty notorious for not taking a stand.)

The statement "I am a feminist" - as a reflection on the speaker, rather than as a support for feminism - doesn't say all that much. Put up or shut up, and don't spend more time fighting other feminists who don't give you enough cred (which includes not demanding that everyone call you a feminist rather than "pro-feminist" or "ally.")

As to dating people you meet in feminist spaces - I'd think the standard sense of propriety applies: you don't make already-purposed spaces into "meet markets," and you don't assume that anyone else is there for the purpose of meeting you. (I suspect that for most feminists, feminism in a partner is perhaps necessary, but never sufficient.)

SarahWGST, you are everything that is wrong with the Feminist movement.

We can be a very unlikeable group of people, us Feminists. I think men who put up with women like SarahWGST in the movement should be given a medal. Men being called "douchebags" illustrates my point perfectly.

One unrelated point...I love the way you have a thin, sex, big-breasted silhouette on either side of the Feministing title.

But SarahWGST has a point, PopFem. I've been that guy before, as the only guy in a women's studies class, and just a bit too enthusiastic about the subject. Dudes tend to talk too much, and sometimes we need to be told to shut up.

Although you do catch more flies with honey, as they say.

As a Feminist man who is active in campus Feminist groups, I actually find this offensive and unproductive.

Posting stuff like this just furthers the stereotype that men can't be "real" feminists, and any man who exhibits feminist thoughts/ideas/behavior is just trying to get into your pants.

It's already hard enough to be accused of being a "gender-traitor" by other men, but having my feminist beliefs called into question by fellow Feminists hurts even more.

Also, if I'm romantically interested in a person who also holds Feminist beliefs, why wouldn't I play up the fact that I, too, was interested in Feminism, and drop a few Butler quotes? This seems to be the same no matter what the area of interest is, be it pogs, paragliding, or post-colonialism.

SarahWGST, you are everything that is wrong with the Feminist movement.

We can be a very unlikeable group of people, us Feminists. I think men who put up with women like SarahWGST in the movement should be given a medal. Men being called "douchebags" illustrates my point perfectly.

Oh, boo friggin' hoo. Feminists are "unlikeable" because they don't go along with society's demands that women defer to manly wisdom. Dudes seriously need to get their damn feet off the back of my chair and STFU.

One unrelated point...I love the way you have a thin, sex, big-breasted silhouette on either side of the Feministing title.

Large breasts do not equal anti-feminism. Nor does being thin.

Feminists never celebrate a victory, we never stop complaining, and we find any and every attempt at humor offensive.

You can choose to believe that feminists are not liked because we're such radicals, going against the grain and raising hell.

To bad it's not true. Most of our responses are knee-jerk, and many women in the movement are clearly motivated by a hatred of men that is as offensive to me as misogyny.

I have two male friends (I'm in a relationship with another woman now, so no bf's) and I don't know why they put up with the abuse.

As for the site's masthead, with a "Bond girl" on each side, you're being a hypocrite. Imagine the shit that another site would get for it.

But it's ok here? Fuck that. I'm short, petite and have very small breasts and I'm tired of being made to feel that I'm asexual shit because of it.

And what makes you think you can tell people to STFU and be justified in doing it? Generalizations based on gender make me sick, as does this supposedly thoughtful, intellectual website.

Cle