WOW. Why get married if you hate women so much? "Will trade in for 1984 model" is the barfiest part.

God, and it's "Best of Craigslist." I hope she divorces him and uses this as evidence.

This guy who used to have a major crush on me used to send me links to stuff like this all the time, thinking that I'd find them hilarious.

I didn't.

And I never liked him back.

There has to be a reply posting out there from the "1964 model" or from a wife wanting to get rid of her "old model."

If there's not, someone should write one.

I actually saw something somewhat similar on craigslist by a woman about her husband, but without the metaphor, and definitely not as offensive.

how would retaliating with a wife getting rid of her "old model" help matters. I don't understand the philosophy of stooping to the level of somebody you are disgusted by. can't we do better?

I think this falls under any of the below categories of infringement of craigslist terms of use:

You agree not to post, email, or otherwise make available Content:

a) that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, or is harmful to minors in any way;

c) that harasses, degrades, intimidates or is hateful toward an individual or group of individuals on the basis of religion, gender, sexual orientation, race, ethnicity, age, or disability;

n) that advertises any illegal service or the sale of any items the sale of which is prohibited or restricted by any applicable law, including without limitation items the sale of which is prohibited or regulated by California
law.

Posted from Los Angeles, of course. Why am I not surprised?

OT, but why no post about the day of silence? :(

This craigslist post is also pretty icky:

http://tucson.craigslist.org/roo/650547049.html

Yeah right, because it's impossible to find CL misandry out there in the best of categories. Or in the w4m or casual categories. It doesn't exist. So your victim penis is longer and harder than ours.

You should feel a bit of pity for this guy. He has just three brain cells, you know, one for breathing, one for eating, digestion and excreting and the third is too busy to handle coordinated movements and has no time to learn tasteful sense of humor.

I love how he can't even keep up with the awful metaphor. Since when do cars have tits and knees?

As a guy, I literally cringed when I read this crap. At first I was hoping it was someone satirizing CL, but it's not. I wish every guy would have the same reaction I had. I almost feel like apologizing that my gender includes scum like this. Really disgusting.

J Pierpont Flathead:
You should really know better than to try to whip out the BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ!!!11 card on here.

I'm not even going to get into your reference to who has the bigger "victim dick".

Pierpont, why the hell were you looking in the w4m sections in the first place? Because you can't get laid otherwise? Seriously, shut the fuck up. If you want to talk about the gender discrimination that men face, we more than welcome it, but try to come up with something a little more intellectual than "what about the men" crap. I am tired of you people bitching about how your rights are violated, yet do not take the time to deconstruct the reasons you're discriminated against. Jesus fucking Christ.

And while I am on my asshole soapbox, can we please shut the fuck up when we have nothing constructive to say? That comment of "And posted from Los Angeles. I am not surprised," was fucking stupid. Jesus Christ! Can you come up with something better? Way to label a whole fucking city, and I am not even FROM Los Angeles. It's comments like that that'll make us look stupid. What the hell contribution did that comment add to the discussion? Christ!

Now, to everyone else: clearly, sexism and ageism exist and are on display in these postings, but are there really alternatives to them? Is there really a way we can fight them? Is it really even worth fighting some 40-year-old loser who's bitter about his wife, sitting at home and posting something misogynistic that's veiled has humor? Are we activists should be focusing on changing the bigger pictures and the real world rather than some jackass said on the Internet? I ask because I see this shit everyday - just earlier, I was reading a football forum (today is the NFL draft), and a poster, in responding to an article written by a woman in the Boston Globe, wrote, "It was written by a girl. It's worthless." I really wanted to say something, but in the end, it's not really fighting jackasses, I don't think.

Thoughts?

Dear ProFeministMale, I agree with you about the whole LA thing, that is ridiculous, just as ridiculous as taking the name of a religious figure that many people venerate and hold to be the son of God and there personal savior and turning it into a way to swear and express anger and frustration. So, if you don't like it when people are degrading of a city, I bet Christians probably don't like it when you are degrading of something/someone they hold to be very important.

Also, there is more than enough misogyny and misandry to go around if you look in the right places. It is of no use to compare them, but it is also of no use to deny them. They are also not both independent. You will never get rid of misandry or misogyny without getting rid of the other. So long as one person is yelling or criticizing there will be another person to yell or criticize back.

Also, the what about men card should never be played. It is a card that basically says, some man did this, but some woman did that, so it is ok. You cannot justify your actions based on what another did. BUT the question “what about men?� is very important, and we do need to be just as critical of misandry as we are about misogyny, if we are not, then we are being rather bias maybe even discriminatory against the issues that men face.

I love feministing. It has really helped me grow as a feminist.
Lately though, I have been less inclined to come here because the comments sections are almost always derailed and taken over by trolls and MRAs. Why can't a site for feminists, especially developing feminists, have a little more regulation for what is okay and what is not as far as posting goes?
This is not the first time Flathead has come in spewing blatant anti-feminist rhetoric, and 88mph, locomotive breath, mild ennui, etc, had long reigns on here as well. What's the deal?

ProFeministMale, I don't really buy the argument that it's not worth speaking up or calling out people on misogynistic behavior just because it's not always rewarding or results in change. Words are not harmless and even though it can often feel hopeless I think it's far more important to stand up and say, "Hey, this isn't ok" than to let it slide. You're right, there is a lot of it out there and it can be frustrating or feel like a waste of time to comment on EVERY SEXISM PIECE OF CRAP you read. But someone should and thats just one thing blogs are good for.

Profeministmale, david, calm yourselves! We don't want a cockfight ;) But seriously, I think we can agree that we're all (except J.P. Flathead) on the same side here. Some of us comment because we have no other outlet for things like this and it helps us cope, so even if you don't find a comment useful, that doesn't mean it wasn't worth posting for the poster. I'm sure Dianna wasn't trying to offend anyone. Seeing feminists bicker amongst themselves over little things (like cursing) is counterproductive when we could be discussing things like real schisms within the movement, or why asshats like this feel the need to vent their failed marriages on CraigsList. Anyway, to cheer us all up, I want to say that I followed triumphantbackgroundmusic's link and the post had been taken down. Yay for not everyone in the entire world being an ignorant, insensitive douche!

I dont understand why people are not allowed to joke about certain social issues like this.

I'm sure that there are plenty of men who come to this site and laugh at many of the misandric comments on this site, so why can't women do the same?

I dont understand why people are not allowed to joke about certain social issues like this.

I'm sure that there are plenty of men who come to this site and laugh at many of the misandric comments on this site, so why can't women do the same?

Kabatas - first of all, fuck you! Just because you don't understand or don't see it does not mean it doesn't exist. What is offensive is determined by the person offended, and the people who have to live through being insulted, not by the person doing the offending.

Secondly, I don't need jackasses like you to tell us about "misandric" comments on this site. When was the last time you saw a comment that was an example of misandry? You're not going to get to make dumbass comments without any substances to them, without being called out for it.

Sorry to everyone else. I am in a "fuck you" mood to most people today.

On the same topic, Chris Matthews is supposed to be one of our commencement speakers. I almost feel like writing the school's paper to let them know why it's a poor choice and why students should be disappointed. But will it do anything in terms of preventing douchebags like Matthews from making money for speaking engagements in the future?

To ProFeministMale:

You should write to your school newspaper about Christ Matthews. That guy's list of misogynistic comments knows no bounds. Check out mediamatters.com for some great resources. It's disgusting that he gets paid huge sums of money for making sexist comments that are on the 15-year old maturity level.

ProFeministMale:

I'm sorry that my reply made you get angry, but it certainly did not address my point that humor is a form of expression that is allowed in all free societies. Perhaps you did not think the joke was funny, but delivery is an important part of humor.

When I see fallacious responses in this own thread about gender age or status of the original poster on craigslist, accusations that the thread was posted by a 40 something woman-hating man is a big of a prejudiced decision to make, especially considering that there was little to no proof that the poster was either male or 40-something years old.

despite the fact that you post under the name "ProFeministMale" there really isnt any evidence that you are male or pro-feminist. You very well could be a feminist-hating female masquerading as a pro-feminist man in an elaborate attempt to discredit the image of feminism throughout the world.

George Carlin famously made the point that you could joke about anything, and I dont see why poking fun at social issues is wrong.

As for your point about Misandrism on this site: It would take me 10 pages to list most of the examples of misandric commentary on these sites but i'll abbreviate that to a few sentences by making the point that its readily assumed that men are the source of all of women's problems and that there is a strangely defficient presence of commentary that women are also responsible for prepetuating the patriarchal gender paradigm.

there is a strangely defficient presence of commentary that women are also responsible for prepetuating the patriarchal gender paradigm

Wait. One of the primary things feminist boards accomplish is helping people work through their own place in patriarchy, thus enabling them to free themselves of their previously unquestioned assumptions. It is in every post and almost every response. You're not picking that up?

I for one do not enjoy making broad generalizations if I can avoid it.

Although I occasionally see some intellectual consistency in the content of this site, much of the user comments come off as misandric or otherwise out of touch with some of the basic goals of feminism, like dealing with "patriarchy" as though it were created by men and men alone. Perhaps its just me but when I show this site to my male friends it repulses them mostly for the reason that it comes off as mostly anti-male.

I for one do not enjoy making broad generalizations if I can avoid it.

Although I occasionally see some intellectual consistency in the content of this site, much of the user comments come off as misandric or otherwise out of touch with some of the basic goals of feminism, like dealing with "patriarchy" as though it were created by men and men alone. Perhaps its just me but when I show this site to my male friends it repulses them mostly for the reason that it comes off as mostly anti-male.

Perhaps its just me but when I show this site to my male friends it repulses them mostly for the reason that it comes off as mostly anti-male.

It would probably be a good idea for your friends to work through the real reasons for their feelings of repulsion, because random, possibly ill-considered responses shouldn't elicit more than mild annoyance. Repulsion is the kind of response most people reserve for things they really really hate, which is interesting and very telling coming from men visiting a site that is dominated by women and women's issues.

Are you fucking serious? Feministing and feminism think men the the source of the problem? You're either fucking really high or an idiot.

First of all, the responses to the post was against one poster, not the entire race of men in general. Secondly, would you find the same "humor" funny if it were a race-based joke? I guess not, right? Thirdly, how is assuming the post was created by a man hurtful to other men? We're speaking against misogyny, not men. If you've got a problem with it, it's too fucking bad, because I am not out to please you or anyone else.

Pray tell, what do you think the purpose of feminism? I've yet to see anything on here that is anti-male, and if there is, posters would call it out, be it against male or female. We're against sexism at feministing - the majority of which is directed at women. We're not anti-male. If you feel feminism and calling out misogyny is anti-male, then there's some security issue on your part, and I am not responsible for coddling you or making you happy. So, either contribute something positive, or shut the fuck up.

ProFeministMale, it warms my cold radfem heart to read your angry rants against ignorant posters. I wish more men would get angry about misogyny, since anger at injustice is the impetus for social activism.

Kabatas et al., no one here cares that you think feministing is "anti-male." Really.

Can someone please explain:

a) How anything I said was misogynist?

b) Why PFM thinks if I examine ads at CL's w4m, it's because I can't get laid? And even if that were true, so what?

c) Why pointing out that CL is filled with shit and hate for both sex "makes it all about the menz"

Can someone please explain:

a) How anything I said was misogynist?

b) Why PFM thinks if I examine ads at CL's w4m, it's because I can't get laid? And even if that were true, so what?

c) Why pointing out that CL is filled with shit and hate for both sex "makes it all about the menz"

Dear Kapatas,

Because I believe in valuing everyone’s point and I do care about what you think (because I assume you are intelligent and have reasons for thinking the way you do) I just want to let you know that I agree with you, not entirely, but to the extent that I would like to discuss with you what you have said or at least comment on it. The issues being addressed on this site are commented on mainly by women, thus most of the comments come from the point of view of women, and since women don't know what it is like to be men, there is inherently bias. I don't know if I would call it misandry, but the one-sided slant can be very off-putting to men, especially when men never see there viewpoints expressed. I don’t really have any problems with feminism or the slants and angles that people put on things, mainly because people are posting their experiences and interpretations of the world around them, and how they feel and perceive is valid, it cannot be otherwise.

The only real issue I have now is that there is not a strong male movement that finds out how men are being oppressed/stereotyped (i.e. emotionally, still trained to be bread winners, selective service...) by patriarchy and fighting against that as well, obviously it is the responsibility of men to do this, and ironically patriarchy in my mind is keeping men from doing this because it makes men less manly.

Anyway, the long and short of it is that all of the views here are representative of what the commentators are experiencing, the great shortfall is that we live in a society that is made up of men and women, and men for the most part are not participating in these sorts of discussions and thus we are only getting half the views. I believe that the more information and viewpoints that can be gathered, the better the likelihood of fixing problems, so what we really need to do is get more men expressing their views, and then listening to them, especially when the see things differently (I am not talking about misogynistic, but rather, complementarily, i.e. if a man were to say "that is very insightful, but you must realize that when men are in this situation, that is not what they are thinking, but rather...). Too often feminist and gender studies groups are made up primarily of women, yet they comment on how men act and behave, yet when men comment on how women behave, especially if there is anything negative, then it is sexist.

I believe that most men are good people and want equality and are not misogynic... and I also think that most men have problems with parts of feminist theory, but not with the end goals, therefore by creating dialog with more men and by being open to all ideas, even if they challenge existing theories (the only theory I have ever seen last the test of time is the theory that all theories besides this one are flawed if not outright wrong), we can find the gaps in the theory in order to more quickly achieve our aims.

hmmm, thoughts on how to fight sexism and ageism...well I really don't know. Craigslist really is an interesting reflection of us as a people, as a guy when I read the ad I dont find it funny as its really rather base and misogynistic. What bothers me though, and I guess I'm weird like this, is that it was in the for sale section. If it was in the personals, either w4m or casual encounters, I really would have no problem with someone listing off things that are not acceptable to them, even if they are superficial. Just means they are superficial and probably buy into a lot of things they arent even aware of. It's hard for me to work around in my mind, even taking into account all the bullshit our culture throws at us, that its somehow inherently wrong for het men to prefer young, extremely fit women, at least physically. I don't get the feeling that everyone must be made to feel 'beautiful' vice just being a regular person in all its form, no not every person is special, beautiful or unique, just the way life is.
As far as the what about the men card, well heck that always pops up, sometimes from trolls or sometimes from posters saying someone posting in the cl dating section is a loser or more usually saying that whatever man was involved in the activity the thread is about has a small penis, interesting stuff.

david,
interesting post. A thought as to why more men dont participate on these boards and others, other than of course either being vocal on something like kos or just being an asshole online in general, is that a lot of men basically feel their opinions are worthless or 'wrong' when it comes to the topics covered on this site and its sister sites. A man could gin up the gumption to read through feminism 101, lurk on the boards for a while and still end up pretty much getting his ass handed to him if he misspeaks on a board. At least among my male friends, football loving beer drinking frat boys to self-identified feminists with many letters behind their names, they feel it is best left to women and that there is no place for them in what is supposed to be a gender equity movement, very hard to break past that for a lot of them, especially if they are a single-issue kind of person. beyond obvious issues such as abortion, many of my friends also believe now in shared parenting, at least as I have shown it to them/given them links and info for and they wonder why there is so little initiative for it and simply have no idea how to make it happen. Guys who can run companies, command soldiers and so on genuinely feel at a complete loss when it comes to this kind of thing or feel it isnt worth speaking up about and we should just trudge on. Only time I've seen some action from them is when they get raked over the coals in family court, then they usually head on over to the MRA sites.

Jamespi,

I think you hit the nail on the head with your last sentence. People go where their opinions are being expressed, and if you just got screwed over at family court because you were a guy it only makes sense you will wind up with an MRA group because they are the ones screaming in your support. Like I said, most guys are on the feminist side I think, the problem is that the feminist side recognizes the problems men face, but don't really do anything about it. Men obviously need to take the initiative, but if women aren't going to help men get what is fair, why should men help women. The solution is working together, not seperately and not by only looking at half the issues or hearing half the voices. There would be so many more feminist guys out there if the movement would start talking about the issues men face a bit more. Really, being incluse could do nothing but help in the long run.

Men obviously need to take the initiative, but if women aren't going to help men get what is fair, why should men help women.

Feminism is all about helping men and women get what's fair. The problem is that, for women to get what's fair, men will have to give up some things that they currently take for granted. If I've got my share and part of yours, the only way to achieve "what's fair" is for me to give up that part of your share that I've been holding on to, even though I rather like having it.

I think Susan B. Anthony provided one of the most succinct summaries of the operative principle here:
"Woman, her rights, and nothing less. Man, his rights, and nothing more."

Well, everyone worried about men and sexism should definitely rally together and go form a web-site of some kind. Drop me a line when you get it started up.

In the meantime, here's a great link:
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/06/03/faq-arent-feminists-just-sexists-towards-men/

Blurg, the link didn't work. The relevant quote I was going for from that site was:
"No one is saying that discussions on men and masculinities shouldn’t go on. It is absolutely important to have dialogue on men’s issues, including discussions on violence done towards men. But, the thing is, men, not women, need to be the ones creating the spaces to discuss men’s issues."

Shorter Fem 101: Don't make women do your work for you.

Hi Sgzax, the link worked for me. And twas a good post, as well. Think I'll keep a hold of that one for later!

Interesting T-shirt to come across as well: http://www.cafepress.com/uc.16149442

Most of what I find irritating is the addition of the 'shoes' comment.

Dear Elise,

I definitely hear your point, obviously if things aren’t fair, then someone has some sort of unfair advantage, and it will be difficult for them to give that up. What I think you are forgetting is that the issues that women think are unfair are the ones where they are disadvantaged, and the ones where men think things are unfair are the ones where they are disadvantaged, and thus both groups kind of overlook the fact that in certain spheres they both have unfair advantages that they will need to give up.

If you look back at what you wrote and the quote that you gave, there is something that is in my opinion, unfair about it, it makes the assumption that women have less and men have more in terms of everything, and thus women will only have to claim and men will only have to give up.

"Woman, her rights, and nothing less. Man, his rights, and nothing more."

I am sure that if you ask men you can find many examples of where men feel like they don’t have as many rights or advantages as women, this isn’t to say that the grand total doesn’t says men have more, but it is saying that we should not deny that in certain things women have the advantage. My point is that I believe right now that most men (regardless of the good intentions of feminists) see feminism as a movement about women getting rights and taking things from men. What they don’t see is that it is about equality and giving things to men, like the right to be a house-dad, or to not be required by law to sign up to go to war because they are men and not women, or being able to collect welfare like women do, or fairness in family courts, or not to have to pay for every date they go on and then buy women diamonds for the rest of their lives, or by being told that it is ok to be emotional and not be able to bench press 130 lbs, or that they do not have to be like the high school jocks/jerks in order to date good looking girls and to have lots of friends or that men don’t have to fulfill any of their other traditional stereotypes unless they want to. The reason that men don’t see this is because I don’t think that feminists really ever say much about lots of these issues, and if they do it is in passing or in class, but rarely the focus of the conversation. Thus, when men start to feel things are unfair, they head over to the MRA because what men care about and think is unfair is being actively discussed there, along with a lot of not so great stuff.

Wow, that was a huge oversimplifying statement that will get ripped apart…anyway…The point is that both men and women are advantaged and disadvantaged in different ways and that depending on one’s (rich/poor white/colored men/women un/educated) frame of reference we see things differently. Whatever the case, we cannot have the standard assumption be that women only have to claim rights and men only have to give them up. If this is how we are thinking than I know exactly why men don’t like the feminist movement, because it denies the experiences and disadvantages and hardships of being a man.

So it's either focus on men's issues or "deny the experiences and disadvantages and hardships of being a man"? I guess we should all give up, ladies, and go back to serving men no matter what our own wants and needs are! I guess that's the only way to get them to recognize that we are individuals with separate wants and needs!

My point is that I believe right now that most men (regardless of the good intentions of feminists) see feminism as a movement about women getting rights and taking things from men.

I think it's not about getting rights so much as getting equality. If you think about it like that maybe you won't feel like your ice cream is being stolen every time a girl gets one too. Feminism is not a zero sum game.

What they don’t see is that it is about equality and giving things to men, like the right to be a house-dad

Feminists actively work to allow people to construct their families however they like, regardless of traditional societal expectations. This is an explicit feminist goal. When you see women opposed to this, you're not looking at feminists.

or to not be required by law to sign up to go to war because they are men and not women,

Feminists are generally liberal and oppose the draft on principle, but to the extent that it exists I believe that it should be applied equally to men and women. Most feminists feel that way, but no, it's not top on the agenda. Apply the draft to men and women equally, then we can all fight it together.

or being able to collect welfare like women do,

Huh? Did someone offer me welfare and I didn't sign up? Woo!

I actually worked in social services for a long time, and this assertion is not true.

or fairness in family courts,

This is an area where feminist men could do a lot of good, because the MRA's mess up all of their good points with huge portions of misogyny whenever this comes up. The goal of family court should always be the best interests of the child, and if a group of feminist men could address this sensibly they'd probably get a lot further with feminists than the unhinged fanatics who have dominated the issue up until now.

or not to have to pay for every date they go on

You haven't been dating very many feminists, have you?

and then buy women diamonds for the rest of their lives

I think you got this from a Kay's commercial rather than real life. Am I right? For future reference in your real relationships, please know that you don't have to do everything the television tells you to do.

or by being told that it is ok to be emotional and not be able to bench press 130 lbs...

Yeah, feminists are totally on board with this. You're complaining to the wrong people.

The reason that men don’t see this is because I don’t think that feminists really ever say much about lots of these issues, and if they do it is in passing or in class, but rarely the focus of the conversation.

But why do you have to be the focus of our conversation? Be an ally, OK? Do you always have to be in the spotlight? The system primarily benefits you. If you haven't figured that out, or if you fall through the cracks in the privilege game, you need to take that up with the system, not the people working to fix it. I strongly suggest making a visit to the Feminism 101 blog, especially the part I linked above.

David, David, David. All those grievances you just listed? Feminist grievances.
You come across as someone who confuses feminist with non-feminist women. Who opposes strict gender roles? Feminists. If men truly wanted to work on all those things you listed, they'd be feminists.
But as it stands, they just hold feminists up as "the enemy" even though we are the ones working to bring about social equality of the sexes. Telling us men and women should be equal in dating relationships, parenting roles, in the military, etc., etc. is preaching to the choir.

sgzax,

So actually some very interesting conversations on gender DO go on at various websites that try to address issues of men and women and gender. And many of the bloggers running those websites and their posts can only be described as feminist in nature, and an inspection of their posts would reveal that.

But these sites are almost never linked to by feminist sites. When I have pointed out the similarities of posts at times and suggested a feminist site and one of these sites discuss each others' posts, the feminist sites have ALWAYS declined. And in reality the sites when mentioned at feminist sites are only excoriated for some view, and have their words twisted.

None of these behaviors show a respect for others, or a confidence in your own philosophy, or a willingness to have a conversation.

Most of these behaviors speak of bullying, silencing, mocking, and an insecurity in the truth of the feminist argument.

Oh yeah, it turns out that second wave feminists often support these other sites and agree with their messages.

Sorry, but you'll just have to do better than "gosh you should form your own website and drop me a message because I am really interested."

Dear People who just unfairly attacked me,

A few responses:

“So it's either focus on men's issues or "deny the experiences and disadvantages and hardships of being a man?� -waxghost

I never said this, all I said is that men have issues they are facing and that I don't think that they get adressed as often as they need to be (by men or by women), and that by claiming men have no areas where they might be disadvantaged is to deny the expereinces men have of being disadvantaved, it happens, not as often as with women, but it still happens and needs to be adressed.

" sgzax-I think it's not about getting rights so much as getting equality. If you think about it like that maybe you won't feel like your ice cream is being stolen every time a girl gets one too. Feminism is not a zero sum game."

I completely agree with you, if you look at my statement I said “most men�, not “I myself believe�.

“Me-What they don’t see is that it is about equality and giving things to men, like the right to be…
Sgzax-Feminists actively work to allow people to construct their families however they like, regardless of traditional societal expectations. This is an explicit feminist goal. When you see women opposed to this, you're not looking at feminists.�

Yes, that is what I said, it is about equality and I think that most men don’t see that, again, we are on the same page, stop accusing me of not agreeing with you, I am saying that I believe most men don’t see it this way. Go back and look at what I wrote more carefully.

“Me-or to not be required by law to sign up to go to war because they are men and not women,
sgzax-Feminists are generally liberal and oppose the draft on principle, but to the extent that it exists I believe that it should be applied equally to men and women. Most feminists feel that way, but no, it's not top on the agenda. Apply the draft to men and women equally, then we can all fight it together.�

I know most feminists feel this way, I mentioned this as an example of where men are disadvantaged, I think we could really make a “my body my choice to throw it on a land mine or not� shirt for men to oppose the selective service, and for women too if stupid people in Washington decide to force women to register as well.

“me-or being able to collect welfare like women do,
sgzax-Huh? Did someone offer me welfare and I didn't sign up? Woo!�

I am sorry if this is inaccurate, I was under the impression that it is far easier for women to get welfare than for men, especially seeing that most men are homeless. I am sorry if this is wrong, and if you could better enlighten me I would be appreciative. I will admit I do not know very much about this issue.

“me-or fairness in family courts,
sgzax-This is an area where feminist men could do a lot of good, because the MRA's mess up all of their good points with huge portions of misogyny whenever this comes up. The goal of family court should always be the best interests of the child, and if a group of feminist men could address this sensibly they'd probably get a lot further with feminists than the unhinged fanatics who have dominated the issue up until now.�

Agreed, we need to get a lot more feminist men in there, and why because as you said, MRA’s mess up the good points, but some of the good points are points where men feel disadvantaged because they are men. I brought this up to show that family courts are an area where feminist men need to be more often(because men should be responsible for the issues facing men), but it would be nice if the feminist women could back them up, I know that feminist women are always glad when men come and back them up.

“Me-or not to have to pay for every date they go on and then buy women diamonds for the rest of their lives.
Sgzax-You haven't been dating very many feminists, have you?�
I think you got this from a Kay's commercial rather than real life. Am I right? For future reference in your real relationships, please know that you don't have to do everything the television tells you to do.�

Actually I am dating a wonderful feminist and we split all cost 50/50. But I am glad you brought up Kay’s commercials, it is just one of the many things that guys see which reinforce their traditional gender roles, and also the traditional female gender role as needing men to buy women things. Again, I listed this to show how men are still expected/taught to act in their traditional roles, my point supported by the fact that there still are commercials telling guys to so. Again, if you will go back and reread, I said that this is a practice that still exists today and needs to end, not something that I ascribe to.

“Me-or by being told that it is ok to be emotional and not be able to bench press 130 lbs...
sgzax-Yeah, feminists are totally on board with this. You're complaining to the wrong people.�

I am not complaining to you about your not agreeing with me, I mentioned this to show that unfortuantly growing up as a guy, I felt that it was expected of me to not be emotional and to be able to bench 130. I was bring this up because I am listing all the areas where men are somehow suffering due to the gender roles which are expected of them, not by feminists, but by most other people. The point in listing it was to show that feminist are on board with this sort of stuff, but that most men, in my humble opion, do not know that.

“Me-The reason that men don’t see this is because I don’t think that feminists really ever say much about lots of these issues, and if they do it is in passing or in class, but rarely the focus of the conversation.
Sgzax-But why do you have to be the focus of our conversation? Be an ally, OK? Do you always have to be in the spotlight? The system primarily benefits you. If you haven't figured that out, or if you fall through the cracks in the privilege game, you need to take that up with the system, not the people working to fix it. I strongly suggest making a visit to the Feminism 101 blog, especially the part I linked above.�

I am sorry if you misunderstood what I was trying to write, I am not saying that men should be the only focus of the conversation, but rather that if men and the issues that men face were sometimes the focus of the conversation, we would probably get a lot more men coming out to support the feminist movement, because they would feel that feminism not just for women, but for everyone.

“David, David, David. All those grievances you just listed? Feminist grievances.
You come across as someone who confuses feminist with non-feminist women. Who opposes strict gender roles? Feminists. If men truly wanted to work on all those things you listed, they'd be feminists.
But as it stands, they just hold feminists up as "the enemy" even though we are the ones working to bring about social equality of the sexes. Telling us men and women should be equal in dating relationships, parenting roles, in the military, etc., etc. is preaching to the choir.�

Again, I know that these are feminist grievances, thus I am a feminist, my point if you’ll go back and look is that I don’t think most men think that these are feminist grievances, because they so rarely get brought up. And looking carefully you will also see that I said “most men�, not “I myself.� I personally know that these are feminist grievances and that feminism is the way to go, my experiences however in talking with men is that they do not know/believe that these are feminist grievances.

So please, I am sorry if I offened people with my comments, I personally still hold to them and do not believe that they were offensive or deserved the replies that they got. Most of what I said was that I think most men feel a certain way about feminism and that men do face issues that women do not face. If you disagree with me about how I have blatantly stereotyped most men, or about the issues I listed, fine tell me, and tell me why, with a good logical arugment, those seem to change my opinions the fast, though I think we are all on the same page if you would look carefully.

"the issues that men face were sometimes the focus of the conversation, we would probably get a lot more men coming out to support the feminist movement, because they would feel that feminism not just for women, but for everyone."

It's great if men feel they're benefiting from feminism, because they are, but it bothers me that apparently many men will only support the movement if we prove that they're going to get something out of it. Even if patriarchy didn't hurt the men too, and they only benefited, they should STILL support the feminist movement, in my opinion. It should bother them that half of the population don't enjoy the same privilege as they do.

The point you seem to be missing, david, is that those issues are part of the conversation often. Yet when they are, there are few men around (or few who are willing) to talk about their experiences. So which came first, the chicken or the egg? Which must come first in feminism, greater involvement by men or greater focus on how patriarchy hurts men too? Why is it up to women to do these things for men when men are perfectly capable of doing it for themselves?

And how much do we need to talk about men before they will "feel comfortable" being feminist? I have male friends who I talk to all the time about feminism and how the patriarchy hurts them too. They even agree with me, and identify things like you have such as the masculine physical ideal. And yet they still don't really call themselves feminists, don't try to change their own behavior or anyone else's behavior to accommodate more diverse roles for men, etc. It's men who have to change, not feminism, but it is too easy to be complacent in a system that you are mostly (notice I say mostly, not completely) benefiting from.

What you are basically arguing for here is that women focus even more of our energy on men than we already do, while men don't have to focus on women any more at all. That's not feminism.

It's men who have to change, not feminism...

Bingo. Dismantling patriarchy is already beneficial to men AND women. If men refuse to recognize that, even whilst many feminist-minded groups address it, that is their problem, not ours.
And if those men will ONLY support feminism if it focuses primarily on THEM? Then they are not true allies and do not really see women as equals.
MRA sites are decidedly anti-feminist.
Even though feminism aims to address many of their grievances, they continue to paint us as the enemy, rather than the dominant culture.
I understand now that you are in the feminist camp; I suppose the way you've been wording your comments has led me and others to believe otherwise. I'm sorry if I mischaracterized you at first.

p.s. Pandagon and Shakesville are two sites that address masculinity and PHMT that immediately sprung to mind.

Another thing that should be noted, david, is that feminists hear "what about the men?!" arguments so much, it actually makes us less inclined to talk about how these issues might effect men. If you're trying to talk about, say, potatoes and people keep interrupting to talk about turnips, you're going to get sick of people trying to talk about turnips and instead try to finish the conversation you were having about potatoes. If fewer men came into these threads saying, "but you never talk about us!" we would probably be a lot more willing to talk about men because we would be able to say everything we wanted to say about women and then, perhaps, turn to how it effects men.

(I also don't understand why it seems to be so hard for men to simply throw their comments into the ring, like the rest of us do, compiling our individual experiences into a heap of patriarchal damning....)

Oh my god, waxghost, that's great. "But what about the turnipz?!?"

"MRA sites are decidedly anti-feminist."

Decided by who? Interesting how often generalization are made about men around here. It's no wonder why men seeing this site read it for amusement or mistake it for a men hating site.

"And if those men will ONLY support feminism if it focuses primarily on THEM?"

Since when has anyone talked about making feminisism focus primarily on men? Is talking about men's issues at the same time as women's issues is focusing primarily on men??? One posted in this thread had the phrase about men in this discussion as "trolls and MRA" lumping MRA and trolls. Imagine if a MRA site said: "trolls and feminists".

If feminism benefits men and women, why shouldn't men's and women's issues in the patriarchy be represented.

"Even though feminism aims to address many of their grievances, they continue to paint us as the enemy, rather than the dominant culture."

Yet another generalization. If we can agree than not all feminists are the same, can we agree that not all MRA are the same?

And waxghost, a mature perspective is not to shut your eyes when a man discusses his concerns. Men actually bringing up topics of equality between sexes should be a concern from feminists. I don't like the attitude that if we stop talking about an issue (men's rights) then, maybe men will go away.

I don't understand your last comment though. You seems to contradict yourself. First you state that men shouldn't comment about their own issues because you'll stop listening to them but then you state that it's okay for them to state their experiences and issues.

Screw men, its the anti-feminists and "girls > boys" crews who mangle the feminist message. Let's not bust this down along gender lines; a good number of our most misogynistic opponents are other women. It's a patriarchy because it privileges the stereotypes of masculinity, but both genders give the system passive support on a daily basis.

I wish that we had better ways of getting out the word that feminism is about treating all people like they are autonomous individuals of equal worth. Our dedication to preserving the rights to dignity, bodily integrity, self-determination, equal value for equal effort... all that somehow gets lost in translation when reaching out to the non-feminist public. Sometimes we feminists are even complicit in losing sight of those goals, as the recent brouhaha over the racist/colonialist illustrations demonstrates. Of course, part of that difficulty is that we are still stymied in convincing people of basic facts: such that women are still strongly disadvantaged in male-dominated fields, that women have just as much right to procreation-free sex as men, or that men* should stop assuming that the default response to sexual advances is "consent".

I guess it's a bit of a catch 22. We need to discuss more high level concerns that affect both genders, while simultaneously we need to convince people of the basic disadvantages oppressing women. Add in the nexus of class and race issues, and you're looking at pretty much every social problem of the day. Thank goodness for the internet and niche blogs!

*Rape and sexual assault is one area where you can't really escape that men are the primary culprits/beneficiaries. Victim blaming only works in the Default-Consent paradigm anyways.

As a feminist gal, I can honestly say that feminism has indeed got me on the lookout for how misandry and misogyny are often strange bed fellows.

What's frustrating of late is the insistence by some that the misandry that we see today is indeed a direct result of feminism. (This is different from critiquing flaws in feminist theory or practice, which they feel hurts men).

I do have a problem with this assertion because it is often taken out of historical and social context.

For example, I am also quite suspicious when I hear men essentially complain that the entire "western culture" has been feminized (ala Bill Maher)

First is the implication that feminization is necessarily a bad thing, if indeed you believe this is true and if you can even formulate an unbiased definition of feminization.

Second is the apparent disregard for the fact that many males have been systematically oppressed alongside women long before feminism came to town.

And yet when we break it down, we can still smell the modern western-male privilege from a mile away.

Take the trend of western men going to economically underdeveloped countries to find a "good wife" (or ample supply of cheap and young prostitutes). This practice is enjoyed by only those who can afford the airfare, yet I have yet to hear a critique on how these practices might affect the mating dynamics for the local men of these destinations. Some brotherhood, huh?

Lastly, when pressed further it is evident that some of the things that some* MRAs are pushing for are indeed problematic with respect to feminist goals, i.e., the right to sexually objectify women as part of a biological imperative (yet these same men balk at being objectified financially) and divisions of labor which serve to isolate women from greater society.

I think men need to sort some of their shit on their own first, and then we can talk. We are getting there, but I'm sensing that right now is not quite the time and space.

*I know that not all men's groups or men subscribe to the same philosophies and that the movement is diverse.

Dear Waxghost

I am going to restate your question, and then answer it for you.

Why is it so hard for men to simply throw their comments into the ring, like the rest of us do, compiling our individual experiences into a heap of patriarchal damning....?

Well, here is the answer,

Feminists hear "what about the men?" arguments so much, it actually makes us less inclined to talk about how these issues might effect men. If you're trying to talk about, say, potatoes and people keep interrupting to talk about turnips, you're going to get sick of people trying to talk about turnips and instead try to finish the conversation you were having about potatoes. If fewer men came into these threads saying, "but you never talk about us!" we would probably be a lot more willing to talk about men because we would be able to say everything we wanted to say about women and then, perhaps, turn to how it effects men.

It just so happens that when people throw their comments into the ring in order to damn patriarchy, they talk about where they are being hurt/oppressed/discriminated against. So men throw in their comments which are along the lines of this is where men are victims, and then men are told that that is not what is being discussed and that they should go start their own blog. Then they stop commenting and go to blogs that are willing to listen to them and retain the bad memories of the feminist blog they visited.

sgzax, what can I say? I dream of equality for all tubers someday. ;)

Well, first of all, bill, I think you meant "shut your ears" because if I was "shutting my eyes" when a man discusses his concerns, I would still hear him. Thanks for the laugh, though.

Second, you are twisting my words, which I suppose shouldn't surprise me since you are also defending MRAs, but I'll correct you anyway. You (and all of the other "what about the menz" people who get so angry that we aren't always talking about men) make it sound as if there are only two choices: to talk about men's issues as much as you want us to or not talk about them at all, to let men take over the conversation completely or to not let them talk at all. Those are not the only two choices. I never suggested that men should stop talking about men's issues, I suggested they stop bringing them up on feminist sites as if they're so oppressed because someone somewhere is not talking about them for two seconds. I will be the first one to defend a man who, say, steps into one of the street harassment threads and describes how he has been similarly mistreated on the street, but if he wants to get special attention for that or claim that it is somehow different and/or more important than what women go through every day, yes, I'm going to tell him to shut up. There are ways to be part of a conversation that only marginally has to do with you and still be respectful, and whining that no one is talking about your problems is not one of them. If you want to talk about your problems, that's great, I would love to hear them, but not if the only reason you're bringing them up is to bitch about the fact that I'm not talking about them already! I'm not psychic, so just frigging talk about your problems already, rather than expecting me to magically know what they are somehow. Is that so hard to do or understand?

Oh, and Vodalus and Billdiamon, right on with your posts.

Also, if all MRA sites are decidely antifeminist, and men's issue don't have a place on sites like this, then where are men's issues supposed to be brought up. If I were to start a blog that was about how patriarchy hurts men, and focus as much on men and as little on women as mush as this site focuses on women and as little on men, then my blog would be labeled sexist for sure. Even if my goal was just for establishing gender equality.

@Dave: "If I were to start a blog that was about how patriarchy hurts men, and focus as much on men and as little on women as mush as this site focuses on women and as little on men, then my blog would be labeled sexist for sure. Even if my goal was just for establishing gender equality."

That's the point where you say fuck it, who cares what people label your work. Yeah, it's not the easiest road to go down but progress never really is, is it?

And, fyi, I would read your blog!

middle sentence should read:

Yeah, it's not the easiest road to go down, but progress never really is the easiest road, is it?

ooops!

david, you're right. The difference is those who come into a feminist space complaining from the beginning and generally acting as if their thoughts can fix all that is wrong with feminism if only we would listen, and those who come into feminism realizing that they are only one human, whose knowledge of feminism is necessarily incomplete (I know mine is!) and want to take part in the conversation but aren't trying to get the spotlight on them or their issues. The fact is, if there was a men's movement that was truly parallel to feminism, I wouldn't go onto their website and complain "what about the women?!" because I recognize that men have issues that I am not even aware of because I'm not male, and that men need a place to specifically deal with that without having to pay attention to everyone's issues. I've tried walking into a new community space before with the attitude that I knew everything there was to know about it and how to fix it and, surprise surprise, everyone hated me from the start. While I realize that a lot of men don't intend it that way, that is how it comes across, and it would be nice if they would think about how they would feel and react in a similar situation - which I can't imagine would be very different.

I hope you'll tell your friends that a lot of us realize there are problems with feminism and with the way patriarchy treats men, and that many feminists would be delighted to be allies to men who are trying to achieve parallel goals. But I also hope you'll tell them that they should be humble and respectful when they come to places like this, and not expect us to defer automatically to them or even always be willing to discuss their issues. In fact, ideally, you (and they) would come to recognize that this is actually something that patriarchal culture does to women most (though it does it to men too), saying that they need to shut up about their problems because there are more important things to talk about, and that that is why feminists have such a severe reaction to it.

I would read that blog too, david. I've talked to several men that I know, asking them to basically come up with feminist (or feminist-style, depending on how you want to look at it) critiques of our culture as it applies to them, and for the most part, they couldn't do it. So I would actually be really interested to read something like that.

It would be easy to tell the difference between an MRA blog and a blog written by a man sympathetic toward feminism. As an example, the man sympathetic toward feminism might bring up the unfair expectation in mainstream society that men always pay, but he wouldn't blame women for that. He would use it as a jumping off point to deconstruct patriarchy and his part in it. And he wouldn't necessarily expect women to talk about it a lot on their own blogs. And he wouldn't expect women to be responsible for fixing it.

And he would seek out allies to be with. He would date feminists. He wouldn't have vast numbers of friends 'repulsed' by feminist web-sites. There are many feminist men in the world. He would seek them out instead.

The focus of that blog would be the harm inflicted on him by patriarchy, not the harm inflicted on him by women. And if it was a thoughtful and insightful blog a lot of people would read it.

That kind of thing requires work though, and the hardest kind of work (as evidenced by the blogosphere explosions in the last few weeks) is really examining your own privilege. It's hard work, but it will never happen by coming to feminist sites and expecting them to change themselves to please you. Believe me, you haven't thought about feminism a fraction as much as most people who participate in this board. And if you think that the magic formula that will fix everything is women editing themselves in their own space, then you haven't done enough homework to have a really good conversation about this topic yet.

You are demonstrating unexamined privilege. It loses your argument for you. Or it exposes you for who you really are. Which of those two do you prefer?

Dear Waxghost,

I completely agree with you. And you are totally right about going into an area and demanding to be heard and how off setting that is to people. I, like most feminists, recognize that men do face lots of issues due to patriarchy, and it seems to me that the problem is that as men enter a discussion forum, they naturally want to talk about what is hurting them, but the forum is not really focused on what they want to talk about so they try to push their issue. Unfortunately, as you pointed out, feminists have a severe reaction to it. I believe that this reaction is a huge problem, I understand where it is coming from, but if we could work on changing the reaction we might get a lot more allies as opposed sending people away because it seems like we don't care/want to listen to them. For instance, if someone were to say, "what about men?" wouldn't it be great if rather than saying that we are sick of hearing that question, that we could tell this new comer guy that he is asking a really good question and that he should definitely work on answering it. We would then tell this new comer guy that if he wants to talk about it, there is a really good blog at www.doesnotyetexisttomyknowledge.com where lots of feminist men get together to talk about how patriarchy is oppressing them and how to deal with it. Then rather than turning these guys against feminists, we have introduced them to a forum where they can discuss the topics that are important to them without having to go to an MRA site that will start to fill them with anti-feminist nonsense.

The one thing that I think we need to avoid at all costs is belittling someone for mentioning men. It is totally ok to not want to discuss it and to suggest that it be discussed elsewhere, but one should at least recognize that men do face lots of issues and that they are important when they reply to posts about men’s issues. In doing this no one will feel like they or their issue is being marginalized or silenced because it is a men’s issue. If people do feel like men’s issues are being marginalized, then in my opinion we aren’t doing very well in achieving some important feminist goals.

Frankly, no. I wish more men would realize that they need to take the initiative to deal with these issues themselves, not keep expecting feminists to do it for them. No one started feminism for women, or respectfully stood aside so that women could talk about their issues, and I don't see why doing that for men is the responsibility of feminists. Women didn't get this far by waiting for someone to invite us to speak or act, or by acting bruised when we were told to shut up. Women found their own voices, created their own spaces, invaded the spaces they knew shouldn't be closed to them, and suffered unbelievable hardships to get where women are today. So what use is it if you do that to feminism? Wouldn't it be more effective to do it to patriarchy, to attack your true enemy rather than your potential allies? Why is feminism required to just hand over space submissively when we've fought so hard for what little space we have?

And why do we have to show support first before men will support us? "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Why do we have to tiptoe around them if they thoughtlessly stomp around us?

"If feminism benefits men and women, why shouldn't men's and women's issues in the patriarchy be represented."

Oh my god... they are! Men's issues are discussed! I can't mention feminism without mentioning the unfair expectations that society presses onto men AND women because it is a big deal! It matters to a LOT if not most feminists!

waxghost, you're right on especially the last post about injustice. I love that King quote from his letter from the birmingham jail. Right on!

"I also don't understand why it seems to be so hard for men to simply throw their comments into the ring, like the rest of us do, compiling our individual experiences into a heap of patriarchal damning....)"

Like I said before, I see one of the reasons for that being that a lot of males think their views are pretty much worthless and they defer to self-identified feminists or they act violently against them. Nearly all the men I know simply plod along paying their mortgages, letting their significant others dominate the relationship (someone almost always takes the dominant role in my gay friends relationships) and see their lives as little more than a day to day grind providing for themselves and others while trying to get some simple joys when time/money allows. Never have they thought about the patriarchy or any larger societal theme really. Thats due mostly to privilege I think but again also because they dont feel like they have anything to say and see no way to change things. Ive only see this really change after a traumatic experience, such as a bad family court experience, rape, false rape/sexual harassment accusation, or something else. This is probably why the men who do speak out seem so unhinged to many of you here, they are operating off of pure emotion, usually rage or extreme depression.

The most common response I receive from my friends/associates when showing them links/articles from feministing, pandagon, feministe, shakesville, glenn sacks, feministcritcs, or any other site is either "fuck that, thats for fags/losers/wimps" or more usually, "interesting read man but not really for me, I dont know a lot about those things and it doesnt matter anyway, I'll just work my job and I'm behind on the mortgage so I need to focus on that" Always am reminded of male suicide rates when I hear statements like that.

Indeed, no one started feminism for women but one can't really start masculism or male-oriented feminism without receiving a huge backlash or a ton of criticism. Not saying thats a reason it shouldnt start but it makes th