it just shows how ingrained racial stereotype are in our minds without even realizing...
Also Mr Dobbs- Canada and Austrailia are the most multicultural nations at present...

This is nothing new for Lou - he regularly dishes out racist, hateful rhetoric and lies in his programming, most often focused on immigrants. And the scary thing is that he influences a lot of America and has been one of those most responsible for how disgusting the "immigration debate" has gotten in this country.

Unlicensed Mexican hypnotists made him say it, and illegal Guatemalan camera operators caught it on film.

If he'd said "racially stratified" instead of "racially diverse," he'd have been closer to the mark.

Wow. Just, wow.

Wow. On two counts, the other one being that I had never realized what cotton-picking referred to before. But he clearly did, because he stopped himself. And thanks for the fact, Diana, I was pretty sure he must be making that up.

How awful is it that I've never thought of the racial implications of the phrase "cotton-pickin" before now? I'm just used to hearing it in non-racist contexts, like "wait a cotton pickin minute" or "are you out of your cotton-pickin mind?" The same thing happened to me with pickaninny and yard ape.

Last I checked, it's hard to talk about race in America b/c white people can't accept that non-white people experience race differently and have worthwhile things to say, even worthwhile things that will hurt our collective white feelings. (i'm white, if that matters to the reader).
um, Lou, a discussion you moderated would clearly be far worse, not far better.

What the fuck? That was...WHAT THE FUCK!?

I'm actually even more amused by the readers who say that terms like these are used widely in their communities. I've never even HEARD the term "cotton-pickin'" before today and the first thing I thought was "that's some seriously racist shit, yo." To be clear, I'm not trashing the readers who brought this up - I'm just fascinated by the different standards of appropriateness throughout the country.

It's always mind numbing to hear old white men say that racism is not present in this country, and then go on to make disgustingly racist statements. It's time for these sort of ideas to be erased from the main stream media, it's time for Lou to go.
For those shocked by the actual racist phrase he used, I would like to say that I have sadly grown up hearing people in my community use it (in rural Michigan). I think they believe its a more politically correct way of using the n word. Gahhhhhh. What we need is politicians and people in the media to willing talk about the racism that exists in America, not blind and racist white men spitting laments.

I love honest moments. And, yeah, what is that about America being the most culturally diverse...that hardly sounds like a verified fact. And, the U.S. is NOT the most progressive nation. Can Lou say "Scandanavia" and if you are talking about healthcare, try something along the lines of "France."

Ugh, and let's think for a second, what the reaction would be if enough viewer outrage actually ended up getting this dildo off the air. My money's on the "oh, those hypersensitive feminazis with their PC police shitting all over our constitutional rights to be racist asshats" side. And then the attention's turned to what an evil bunch of censoring turds we all are, and "free speech" support for the original offending shithead goes through the roof. Before you know it, he's got his job back plus a nifty pay raise and a nice little slice of celebrity.

Leave it to the right to use their own racism ultimately as a case for racism.

Why does it seem like even when we win, we never fucking win?

Ah yes, because as we all know, white men are the most "objective" folks on the planet, having been born without the bias that clouds everyone else's viewpoints. That is why they should moderate and control all conversations on racism, sexism, sexual assault, immigration, etc., etc. - so the discussion is free from bias!

Wow. I've heard the phrase "cotton-picking" my whole life and NEVER until now did I put two and two together on that. I always thought it was a pretty stupid phrase, but I never figured out how racist it was. But I agree with judgenineteen that Lou must have known what he was saying because he stopped himself. Creep.

Holy freakin' CRAP!

SoyMilk:
We never win because nobody will make as big a deal out of this (think Dick Cheney shooting his pal in the face) as they do when our side makes a mistake. It's maddening and infuriating and it kills me every time.

Why does it seem like even when we win, we never fucking win?

I would suggest it's because we aren't very good at picking our battles.

I grew up Southern, and sure, I've never once thought about this phrase. Now, if someone gently said, "Ya know, if you think about that phrase, it's kinda racist," my response would be, "holy crap, you're right! I never thought about it." And that would the end of "cotton-pickin" being a latent part of my vocabulary.

The left isn't very good at gently correcting the middle. And sometimes, gentle correction can go a long way. Not ALWAYS, but we're not very good at knowing the difference. We're sensitive about a multitude of issues, living in a world of very insensitive people. We're always going to be offended. That's part of wanting the world to be a better place.

What's everybody freakin' out about?

I'm pretty sure he was going to say

Cotton swabbin'

or maybe

Cotton ginnin'

or maybe

Cotton mouthin'

Let's not jump to conclusions to hastily now.

[sarcasm, of course. Though a small part of me really does wonder if he did it purposely just as a way of drumming up controversy so he could say, see, people do overreact. But just a small part of me]

Wow, if Lou Dobbs sees Rice's comments on race as offensive, I'm simply dumbfounded.

I never really paid any attention to him, but I love how openly close-minded he is. Tribute to our country indeed.

I guess he'd prefer the Pat Buchanan take on race

"First, America has been the best country on earth for black folks. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million, were introduced to Christian salvation, and reached the greatest levels of freedom and prosperity blacks have ever known. Wright ought to go down on his knees and thank God he is an American."

over Rice's

"America doesn't have an easy time dealing with race," Miss Rice said, adding that members of her family have "endured terrible humiliations."

"What I would like understood as a black American is that black Americans loved and had faith in this country even when this country didn't love and have faith in them — and that's our legacy," she said.

UCLA- I thought that he might have done it on purpose too, but I'm not quite sure. Either way, he's an ass.

And I'm really surprised that a lot of people on this board didn't realize cotton pickin is a racist remark. And I'm a NYer. Then again, I had no idea what spade meant until like 2 weeks ago. "I call a spade a spade."

I was so horrified when I found out. I've heard it 100 million times and never even thought about it.

I actually give him more credit for stopping himself. Even if it looked bad, it would have been worse if he had finished the phrase.

I think what bugs me is how proud he seems to be of the state of racial relations in the US. Like it's more acceptable to have racial issues and racism in this country because of our diversity.

Actually, I'd argue that it's exactly why we have racism and why we must end racism.

I actually give him more credit for stopping himself. Even if it looked bad, it would have been worse if he had finished the phrase.

I think what bugs me is how proud he seems to be of the state of racial relations in the US. Like it's more acceptable to have racial issues and racism in this country because of our diversity.

Actually, I'd argue that it's exactly why we have racism and why we must end racism.

The left isn't very good at gently correcting the middle. And sometimes, gentle correction can go a long way. Not ALWAYS, but we're not very good at knowing the difference.

If this guy is "the middle," we're in some deep shit. But hell, yeah, let's stop being outraged and try some "gentle correction." It worked with Hitler, right? Oh, wait...

I also must have missed the Right being bastions of "gentle correction" and "picking their battles." They're a real reasonable bunch, those wingnuts.

We're sensitive about a multitude of issues, living in a world of very insensitive people. We're always going to be offended. That's part of wanting the world to be a better place.

So your solution is to simply...stop being offended at offensive shit? I don't really see what point you're trying to make here.

My original question was rhetorical. Of course they always win because they control the message. Not because us non-assholes fuck up the argument, but because it's an unfair fight to begin with. Duh.

Honestly, I just never hear people use it outside of old movies. Now that I consciously read the phrase, it's pretty easy to see why it is racist, but if somethign exists on the very fringe of your experience you don't really notice it. (and I had to look up the spade a spade thing, I always just assumed it referred to, you know, shovels.)

The left isn't very good at gently correcting the middle. And sometimes, gentle correction can go a long way. Not ALWAYS, but we're not very good at knowing the difference.

If this guy is "the middle," we're in some deep shit. But hell, yeah, let's stop being outraged and try some "gentle correction." It worked with Hitler, right? Oh, wait...

I also must have missed the Right being bastions of "gentle correction" and "picking their battles." They're a real reasonable bunch, those wingnuts.

We're sensitive about a multitude of issues, living in a world of very insensitive people. We're always going to be offended. That's part of wanting the world to be a better place.

So your solution is to simply...stop being offended at offensive shit? I don't really see what point you're trying to make here.

My original question was rhetorical. Of course they always win because they control the message. Not because us non-assholes fuck up the argument, but because it's an unfair fight to begin with. Duh.

Spaceninjamonkey: "a spade a spade"? What DOES that mean, anyway? I thought it had something to do with the suit on a deck of cards...does it have another meaning that I should know?

Spaceninjamonkey: "a spade a spade"? What DOES that mean, anyway? I thought it had something to do with the suit on a deck of cards...does it have another meaning that I should know?

Calling a spade a spade = calling a N** a N**. My boyfriend explained it to me and was really surprised I didn't know what it meant. Although he's black and I'm white, so he would know better than I would, especially since it's a dated phrase.

It came up at work bc someone had used it in a text as a last name for a fictional character and our fact checker told us it was a racial word. Most of the staff over 40 knew this, the younger people not so much.

"to call a spade a spade" does, I believe, refer to shovels. The first recorded use seems to come from a greek saying from about 400BC concerning troughs. For the whole sordid affair, see http://www.yaelf.com/aueFAQ/miftocllspdspd.shtml

So your solution is to simply...stop being offended at offensive shit?

You can reread my previous post for the answer to that question, since I already answered clearly. Didn't I say that being offended was a natural part of being who we are? It is, and it's a good thing.

If I cut off ties from my family every time they said something offensive, I wouldn't have any family. If that's not the case for you, then you probably won't understand where I'm coming from.

I don't really see what point you're trying to make here.

My point is that the vast majority of people don't give a shit about what you or I think. They think they've got enough problems, regardless of what privilege and advantage their race or class or gender has bestowed upon them. They aren't interested in being told they're evil when they don't mean to be. So you can scream at them all you want, as long as you don't mind wasting your breath.

And you didn't just drop a H-bomb, did you? I thought we'd all pretty much agreed that's pretty pointless in most civilized discourse that's not directly about Nazi Germany or the Holocaust.

"Last I checked, it's hard to talk about race in America b/c white people can't accept that non-white people experience race differently and have worthwhile things to say, even worthwhile things that will hurt our collective white feelings. (i'm white, if that matters to the reader)."

cantdance, that's racist, and it doesn't matter if you're white.

And I'm really surprised that a lot of people on this board didn't realize cotton pickin is a racist remark.

I'll admit that I never really thought about it. It's a commonly-used phrase around here (Oklahoma,) and folks in my family use it a lot. My grandparents worked cotton fields from the time they could walk, and their parents picked cotton, and so on. I grew up hearing stories about how terrible that work was, how their hands never got a chance to heal before they'd be out in the field again the next day, and I just always figured it referred to the nasty, painful work of picking cotton. (And in the interest of full disclosure, both sides of my family are mixed-race, white and Cherokee.)

Now that I've had the chance to think about it, I agree that the phrase does have racist origins, and I certainly won't be using it.

dylan, what do you think is racist about cantdance's comment? I think it's very true that people who are more privileged, whether it's white, rich, male etc. can sometimes have a hard time understanding how oppression and prejudice (racism/classism/sexism etc.) is experienced by others. I think that's partly why someone like Lou Dobbs and Chris Mathews continue to make the types of comments that they do. They don't realize how it actually FEELS to be a target of their immigrant-hating / woman-hating speech, nor do they understand the effect that this kind of speech has on these groups, especially when you have the power of being broadcast to a national television audience, these sorts of comments are really destructive.

Now that said, I'm not saying that ALL white/rich/male people are insensitive to how oppression is experienced, there's plenty of people of all colors working to end inequality. I'm just saying that a many privileged people DO have a hard time understanding how oppression effects other groups simply because they are not experiencing/witnessing it themselves. So, I think cantdance's comment makes a valid point about how white people may have a hard time accepting certain realities about racism.

Another thing to think of, if you still are worried about that comment being racist because it makes a generalization about white people...Well, the idea of "reverse racism" is a myth, it doesn't exists because oppression is also a function of institutional power, economic power, combined with institutional and individual violence. And whites aren't exactly at an economic and institutional disadvantage. Thus I think the whole idea of "reverse racism" is a sham.

About the Lou Dobbs thing, I think it's a bit sad that he is the one trying to have a discussion about racism, just with him being so overtly racist and leading the anti-immigrant rallying and all that...I think this just reflects why it's so important to bring attention to that fact that so few media outlets are run by women and people of color. It's so hard these days to find conversation on TV or in the big papers that is true to the experiences of immigrants, women, people of color etc. I don't think we're going to get very far with people like Lou Dobbs and Chris Mathews running the conversations on race in America. It's like having the oil companies advocate for environmentalism. It's just not going to work, first thing that needs to be done is get these racist/sexist asshats off the public airwaves and get more people of color and women running these media outlets.

Patrick. I'll try not to be as condescending as you were.

If you read that entire article it sites when the phrase became racially charged (1928). It says the Greek phrase, refers to a trough (which is not a spade, it explains that too).

How exactly do you make the logical leap that because it's not the original meaning, that it doesn't carry a racial connotation? That doesn't make any sense.

Please site me more credible sources than some English language Wiki. Just one source- and a Wiki at that- is pretty weak. Although now I am hunting the phrase's path through history a tiny bit, and find it interesting.