Oh super.

This was interesting too:
"In every category, widowed, divorced and separated people took the harshest view on the role of the female victim, compared with married or cohabiting couples."

Any guesses as to why?

Sadly, this doesn't surprise me. I spent a year in Ireland in college and a common way to get hit on was to have some random guy pinch my ass. I usually gave a piece of my mind.

As sad as this is, I'm not surprised.

I remember reviewing an article a while back from a European country. It gave vignettes of stereotypical sexual assaults and asked the participants to assign blame. This was a "stranger leaping from the bushes and attacking a woman with a weapon as she was leaving work on her way to her car" vignette.

Similar to the above post, a disturbing number (not the majority, but over 20%) of participants assigned much, if not all, of the blame to the woman. I was blown away by those results.

It shows that, despite needing to still go a long way when it comes to educating people about the realities of sexual assault in the US, we have come a long way.

Sadly, this doesn't surprise me. I spent a year in Ireland in college and a common way to get hit on was to have some random guy pinch my ass. I usually gave a piece of my mind.

I may live in a bubble but I really never thought this was the case (I'm irish born and have lived here all my life). I am surprised at this and I know Ireland would do a bit of victim blaming (which is wrong totaly) but this much is ridiculus! I can only hand my head in same for my countrys views.

It shows that, despite needing to still go a long way when it comes to educating people about the realities of sexual assault in the US, we have come a long way.

I couldn’t disagree more. I’d bet that if a similar poll were conducted in the U.S., the results wouldn’t vary all that much. Here it the good ole U.S., we also like to claim most rape victims are lying, ‘cuz, you know, most women would rather lie about being raped than live with “morning after regret� and DUKE, we cant't forget about DUKE (it's "proof" that women lie about it)!! We have plenty of victim-blaming going on in this country.

ShelbyWoo:
I've been trying to come up with a summarization for that whole Duke thing, thanks!

It's pretty obvious how these assholish attitudes affect women negatively. Maybe we can reduce their influence if we can show guys how overall sex-negative they are. Nothing like enlihgtened self interest to change opinions:

"More than 30% think a victim is some way responsible if she flirts with a man or fails to say no clearly."

Look, women flirt. That doesn't automaticaly mean she wants to have sex with you anytime real soon. Keep cool, if it's gonna happen it will happen.

"10% of people think the victim is entirely at fault if she has had a number of sexual partners."

WTF? Just because she had sex with a number of partners so high it might even give you pause, it doesn't mean she can't decline consent to this or that sexual encounter.

"37% think a woman who flirts extensively is at least complicit, if not completely in the wrong, if she is the victim of a sex crime."

Uh, I just don't get this. Get a grip. We're talking about an autonomous huming being here. Consent can be withdrawn at any time, including even after you've got your dick in her. Sure, it isn't how you wanted it to go and it's ackward as hell, but that's the way it is.

"One in three think a woman is either partly or fully to blame if she wears revealing clothes."

You like seeing women in revealing clothes? I'm wih you brother! But then you turn around and say they deserved to be raped for it? I think there's a conflict of interest here.

"38% believe a woman must share some of the blame if she walks through a deserted area"

OK, let's make this about you being robbed. The counterfactual conditional "If I hadn't gone there I would not have been robbed" may indeed be true, but this does not make the person who robbed you any less a criminal scumbag. Same goes for rapists.

Interestingly, I just recently had a discussion with my self-ascribed feminist mother about South Africa, where women demonstrated for their right to wear miniskirts without being raped and my mother said she believed they were at least partially responsible.

I'm a guy and I am appalled by the thought that so many people still believe that we are just animals who aren't able to control our actions once they see a nice pair of legs or breasts. Arousal may be unconscious, whatever follows isn't.

That said, redKate, while pinching a butt is inappropriate and offensive pretty much all settings, it's not rape. I think it's important not to confuse inappropriate attempts to hit on a woman from a serious crime.

More than 30% think a victim is some way responsible if she flirts with a man or fails to say no clearly.

I think that question is unfair. Someone who answered that question may have thought that the woman being raped never said no. I believe that that question could've been worded much better.

How much clearer can no get?

That's really sad and scary, but not surprising.

I don't know how Ireland would compare to other countries (including our own), but I saw a documentary a year or so ago about how gender relations had evolved in the country... the Catholic Church's iron hand in that country has had a really negative effect in terms of healthy sexual attitudes. At the time the documentary was made, it had one of the highest rates of child molestation in the world.

I mean, convents where women and girls were sent in the 50s often sexually abused the new initiates and used them for slave labor.

Its sad to see that home is just the same as everywhere else in terms of wrong attitudes - as a resident Irish person I'm pretty ashamed of the results of this survey. I'm just hoping it wasn't so representative of my generation (20s) but of the older more conservative parts of the population. Ireland is a country that has changed enormously in the last 20 or so years and has mostly escaped the 'iron hand' of the catholic church and its authority figures (against whom there is something of a backlash) unfortunately some attitudes haven't been as quick to catch up as other modernisations.

I couldn’t disagree more. I’d bet that if a similar poll were conducted in the U.S., the results wouldn’t vary all that much.

I think it would depend on who was participating and when.

(If you're referring to similar results to the study I discussed:) This was the rapist in the bushes attacking random woman with a weapon scenario. I think most people in the US, especially when filling out a survey (with all of the attendant socially desirable answers) would know what answer the researchers were wanting and respond accordingly. This doesn't mean that they don't think to themselves that the woman was at fault. They just don't want to write it down when (in many situations) they know that's not the "right" answer in our society.

In college settings, you're probably not going to get more than 10% of respondents assigning blame to the victim in "stereotypical rape" scenarios. This result is also dependent upon that school's history of sexual assault awareness on the campus.

Of course, this statistic changes when you move surveys off campus. But I would hazard a guess that social desirability would prevent many participants from assigning victim responsibility in vignettes that are set up as "stereotypical rapes."

(If you're talking about results similar to those in the OP) I'm not disagreeing that Americans still have major issues with assigning blame to victims in sexual assault cases. I work in sexual assault research. I want to cry and give up the fight every day based on things I read and hear when it comes to victim blame. I'm grasping at a single thread that says that we're not as terrible as we could be. (Please, please let me have my thread. It's all I have to hang onto.)

Again, I'm not saying that people don't actually assign victim blame in real life, but in a lot of cases, especially when it comes to some surveys regarding sexual assault that assign blame to victims, many people know the right thing to answer, even if it's not what they truly believe.

Yes, I'm still grasping at that thread.

My comment before was a quick one before leaving work. The attitudes expressed in the survey and my experience speak to a common attitude of women's bodies as public property.

Sick-en-ing!

I've been assaulted twice, and I'm a guy -- nobody said I "asked" for it. I was told by numerous people -- everyone, really -- that I have to be "more careful." I'm OK with that, that I would have been most offended if someone had said I "asked for it."

I wonder what the original questions were. I'm having a hard time imagining anyone agreeing to the bald statement "the victim is entirely at fault if she has had a number of sexual partners". I can imagine some pretty horrific things, but even someone as crazy as Fred Phelps wouldn't say that (though he'd probably spout no end of vile rhetoric besides).

The mind boggles. "Excuse me ma'am, I have reason to believe you've slept with several men in the past, hence you're obliged to sleep with me." Is it possible to think like that?

Victim blaming is part and parcel of the patriarchal strategy of oppression. Who does it serve to be allowed to say things like "If she hadn't been wearing those slutty clothes, she wouldn't have been raped?" or "If she hadn't been walking in that neighborhood, she wouldn't have been raped?" or "If she hadn't been drinking, she wouldn't have been raped?" or "If she weren't so promiscuous, she wouldn't have been raped?" Who does it serve to say things like that and believe it? It serves the rapist...it serves male privilege and entitlement. It is the ultimate in power and control over women -- it's their fault. They deserve to be raped. People who subscribe to these distorted notions of reality are blaming the victim and letting men, the rapists, off. Why hold men accountable for their actions and beliefs when you can blame women? Men and as well as lots of women persist in their support of the patriarchy and, as a result, we all live in a world overflowing with violence and oppression.

Victim blaming is part and parcel of the patriarchal strategy of oppression. Who does it serve to be allowed to say things like "If she hadn't been wearing those slutty clothes, she wouldn't have been raped?" or "If she hadn't been walking in that neighborhood, she wouldn't have been raped?" or "If she hadn't been drinking, she wouldn't have been raped?" or "If she weren't so promiscuous, she wouldn't have been raped?" Who does it serve to say things like that and believe it? It serves the rapist...it serves male privilege and entitlement. It is the ultimate in power and control over women -- it's their fault. They deserve to be raped. People who subscribe to these distorted notions of reality are blaming the victim and letting men, the rapists, off. Why hold men accountable for their actions and beliefs when you can blame women? Men and as well as lots of women persist in their support of the patriarchy and, as a result, we all live in a world overflowing with violence and oppression.

Is this really surprising, given that the situation is basically the same in the US? I've heard members of my own family, all of whom agree that rape is an awful crime, make comments about revealing clothing: "I mean, if you're going to walk around like that you can kind of expect..." Which makes me want to scream, because technically that means my workout clothes are "revealing." So I guess on some level I want to get raped in the gym parking lot. And then by that line of thinking it's not really even rape because I brought it on myself.

I mean is this a new thing? We live in a country where a lot of people believe you deserve to die of cervical cancer if you've had sex out of marriage even once. And weren't there a couple of dumbass state senators a month or two ago ranting about how back in their day the term rape could only be applied in a case where the victim was a virgin?

I have to say that this Ireland is unfamiliar to me too, as someone born and bred in Dublin. I realise I may have been sheltered somewhat by not being catholic, but in 23 years in Ireland, I have only once had to deal with someone touching my against my will and the person in question has been in Ireland less than two years. I also had the support of all my (male) colleagues in dealing with the person in question.

Ireland has changed a lot, even in my lifetime, and I really feel that we're moving forward on a lot of these issues. It's amazing sometimes to hear a non-irish person's concept of Ireland and see how different it is to how we actually are.

What's infuriating to me is that realistically, a great deal of rape victims weren't wearing anything particularly risque or were flirting with their attacker. How often has some drunk asshole been at the same party you have, and been convinced that you were madly in love with him? Refused to leave you alone? Is it really that much of a stretch for people to put the two together? Of course not, it's much easier to assume the old slut stereotypes.

People who actually have a family member or friend go through it should actually talk to the victim about it if it was possible. I know it might not be something all victims could do, but I don't see how anyone could keep these ridiculous views if confronted with the reality of abuse. There's always the sociopath possilibity, but at least then we might weed them out easier.

Anyone know where that 2% figure comes from, the estimate people give for how many rape accusations are false? I've seen it before but I don't remember where and when I googled it I just got a lot of Glenn Sacks and Fox news saying it's actually so much higher.

@orbits:

I honestly have real trouble consolidating some of the views of Europe espoused here with my own experiences. I did have one argument with a commenter who was adamant that Scotland was some kind of lawless land ruled by gangland mafia, like the current stereotype of Russia. These absurd notions are why I've given up reading mainstream press.

OK, so we're never going to have a perfect world, but, can we try to look at a glass half full?

" More than 30% think a victim is some way responsible if she flirts with a man or fails to say no clearly. "

Or, 2/3rds believe a woman is NOT responsible despite flirting.... a commanding majority. How would that figure have looked in the 1970's?

" 10% of people think the victim is entirely at fault if she has had a number of sexual partners."

90% DON'T believe the number of past partners leads to entirely at fault. I don't know from this reporting what the % who thing past partners have nothing to do with it. I'll bet it's at least as many if not more.

"37% think a woman who flirts extensively is at least complicit, if not completely in the wrong, if she is the victim of a sex crime."

63% - again a commanding majority - do not believe the woman is complicit or wrong.

"One in three think a woman is either partly or fully to blame if she wears revealing clothes."

Two of three do not believe the woman is partly to blame; most respondants, that is.

"38% believe a woman must share some of the blame if she walks through a deserted area."

Again, 62% do not beleive a woman shares some part of the blame. Most people, in other words.

You probably can't get rid of the 10% of complete cretins, but we've got about 2/3rds on our side, with only another 20% to go!

It's just the same in the UK, or was only two years ago.

Look, women flirt. That doesn't automaticaly mean she wants to have sex with you anytime real soon. Keep cool, if it's gonna happen it will happen.

Not only that but many men misinterpret plain-old friendly behavior as flirting. A study came out maybe a year ago that shows that men assume sexual interest constantly, even when they have no legitimate reason to think any given woman is interested in them.

But of course we're just asking for it.

That said, redKate, while pinching a butt is inappropriate and offensive pretty much all settings, it's not rape. I think it's important not to confuse inappropriate attempts to hit on a woman from a serious crime.

It may not be rape, but it is assault. You are sending a very dangerous message when you act like a man pinching a woman's butt is just harmless flirting. It perpetuates the idea the women are sex objects here to please men. It says that it's okay for a man to put his hands on a woman whenever he chooses without her permission and without consequence.

From now one, if I see a man I think is cute, I'm going to punch him as hard as I can in the cock. I mean, it's just an inappropriate attempt to hit on him, so I should be able to what I like with the man's body without his permission and without consequence, right? Or does your theory only apply to men hitting on women?

That said, redKate, while pinching a butt is inappropriate and offensive pretty much all settings, it's not rape. I think it's important not to confuse inappropriate attempts to hit on a woman from a serious crime.

It may not be rape, but it is assault. You are sending a very dangerous message when you act like a man pinching a woman's butt is just harmless flirting. It perpetuates the idea the women are sex objects here to please men. It says that it's okay for a man to put his hands on a woman whenever he chooses without her permission and without consequence.

From now one, if I see a man I think is cute, I'm going to punch him as hard as I can in the cock. I mean, it's just an inappropriate attempt to hit on him, so I should be able to what I like with the man's body without his permission and without consequence, right? Or does your theory only apply to men hitting on women?

Oh come on, ShelbyWoo. What part of of "inappropriate in pretty much all settings" says "it's ok for a man to put his hands on a woman whenever he chooses without her permission and without consequence"?

I don't want to get into a mating behaviour/standards discussion though, partly because I don't think it's an appropriate topic to discuss in a thread about rape, and partly because I don't have the feeling you'd be willing to discuss seriously. After all, you're reacting agreesively to a comment that is fundamentally agreeing with points raised in the original post.

Is a rapist ever responsible for committing a rape? Have they even done that poll?

@keshmeshi said: Not only that but many men misinterpret plain-old friendly behavior as flirting. A study came out maybe a year ago that shows that men assume sexual interest constantly, even when they have no legitimate reason to think any given woman is interested in them.

Yes. There are many studies that show that men and women pick up on social cues differently. Yet, none of this has materialized into any meaningful preventative education for the group of human beings who are statistically more likely to commit sexual assault.

tk_sam : “That said, redKate, while pinching a butt is inappropriate and offensive pretty much all settings, it's not rape. I think it's important not to confuse inappropriate attempts to hit on a woman from a serious crime.�

First of all, I don’t think she or anyone else was “confusing� her anecdote with rape. The category of sexual assault is large enough to encompass both rape and butt pinching, at different ends of the continuum. And ALL forms of sexual assault and harassment, not just rape, are symptoms of how unhealthy dominating/sexist culture is and need to be stopped.

“Hitting on� someone is saying “you have nice eyes� or even “you have such a pinch-able butt,� but actually touching someone sexually without their consent is sexual assault.

“Sexual assault takes many forms including attacks such as rape or attempted rape, as well as any unwanted sexual contact or threats. Usually a sexual assault occurs when someone touches any part of another person's body in a sexual way, even through clothes, without that person's consent.�

http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32369

Damn, I'd like to know the male/female correlation in those answers to the poll -- as in, how many of the divorced/separated/widowed respondents were men.

I really am starting to feel hopeless about it. I don't think people will ever realise how wrong this kind of thinking is. We are surounded by way too many things putting thease kinds of myths into peoples heads.

whats worse, Is I find myself once in a while still wondering if I was at fault when I was raped/abused because of this, that, or the other when logically I know its not true.

It makes you sick

The results really are pretty depressing.

It makes you realize just how dangerous and insidious 'slut shaming', in all its forms, really is.