Aversion to "blaming the victim" goes too far, I think, when it reaches into "there is nothing potential victims can do to avoid victimization," which is itself an infantalizing sentiment. If we're talking about over-drinking, well, come on! It is not "blaming the victim" to say that willfully consuming a neurological depressant whose most widely known side-effect is loss of inhibition to the point of intoxication will make one more likely to engage in behaviors one will later regret.

Very true Alice. There is a difference between victim blaming and encouraging potential victims to educate themselves about the potential consequences.
Empowering people to make better decisions is much better than encouraging people to be blissfully ignorant.

But part of the problem Alice and Matt, is that the focus always seems to be on "what the female should or shouldn't do" and it's never about teaching the actual men who commit these crimes that this behavior is wrong. The idea that this behavior (sexual assault) is just an inherent part of male behavior and that men can't be educated about it, is just toxic. I rarely see campaigns designed at educating men about assault and teaching them that it's unacceptable. I mean really, WTF?

I don't think encouraging women to look out for their own safety is the same as blaming them.

Of course it's up to men not to attack women. But unless you actually believe in the unmitigated goodness and innocence of all men, you're going to want to be careful.

I don't leave my front door unlocked, even though I think everyone out there has an obligation not to burgle me.

True, meeneecat. I really never see education aimed at men on how to not be a predator except if it's something put on by feminists, which is rarely. It's a tough balance, though, when you're just looking at what messages to send to women.

As for the French ads, I'm in Paris right now, and I don't really know what to make of it here. I was warned "not to try my feminist stuff here" (I tried to see the good intention behind that warning) and that they were really chauvinistic and double standard-y about cheating. I can't say much about French people themselves, because I socialize more with international students, but the ads...yeah, I see a lot of objectification of women (one poster had a woman with half of her head cut off so that you could get the full picture of her bare breasts...then again, what else is new, except that we don't see the nipples at home), but I also see more open feminism here than in the US. I saw an ad that said something about abortion being a right, I've seen some signs put up by the gov't recognizing feminists, there was recently a program about women's rights at school (which is not one of a thousand school programs, in France school isn't your entire life). So it's interesting.

Ooo, I think I'm now addicted to Copyranter for life.

And judgesninteen, I spent some time in the south of France, in Toulouse, and I had a similar experience. Machismo runs pretty deep in the south, and we talked about it one day in one of my French classes. A girl from Italy said it was so much worse there. I was pretty shocked/ disgusted by the objectifying ads, but I think that the whole feminist dynamic is so different in Europe, too. Like, I directed the Vagina Monologues at my school this year, and we had an exchange student from Russia in it who refused to wear anything but heels ALL THE TIME, but it didn't make her less of a feminist and stuff.
I guess to echo you, yeah... it's interesting.

It is not "blaming the victim" to say that willfully consuming a neurological depressant whose most widely known side-effect is loss of inhibition to the point of intoxication will make one more likely to engage in behaviors one will later regret.

Empowering people to make better decisions is much better than encouraging people to be blissfully ignorant.

Bullshit.
1. As meeneecat points out, why is the message always to women that "you shouldn't drink because you might get raped"? Why isn't it "men, you shouldn't drink, because you're more likely to rape someone if you do?" Because, reality is that, in rapes where drinking is involved? Men are more likely to have been drinking than women. And men are just as likely to engage in risky/dangerous behaviors as women are, but it's always about moralizing and finger-wagging at women. Oh, you shouldn't drink, because it's dane-jur-us.
2. Are any of us really unaware of the ways that drinking alters our minds and bodies at this point? Because, really, I think that we're all well aware of the fact that drinking:
a. gets people drunk.
b. can alter your inhibitions.
c. gets people drunk.

So, continually pointing out to women that, "hey, if you drink, you could get drunk, and then some asshole will rape you" is infantalizing and offensive. Also, pretty much victim blaming. Because it doesn't actually do anything to help women or prevent rape. It doesn't get to the root of the problem. It doesn't do anything to help women stay safe. All it does is repeat blatantly obvious information that we all already know, and put the onus on women to moderate their drinking, despite the fact that it's the rapist's drinking that's a bigger factor.

I don't have a problem with the idea that we should educate people on drinking- but pretending that it's just women who should be concerned about drinking completely misses the mark.

Yes, there def SHOULD be a companion site for men educating them about what sexual assault is and why it's wrong, but I would not write off the iPartySmarter site as "victim blaming."

The info is targeted not at women who drink, but women who are worried they have a drinking problem. It gives info about getting and using birth control, knowing your drunk threshold, and where to find support if you've been sexually assaulted.

Everyone knows that drinking creates dangerous situations for men AND women. We tell people not to drive while drunk because there could be serious consequences. There are also serious, potentially life-long consequences from having sex while drunk that disproportionally affect het women. Why pretend otherwise?

Sometimes I think the feminist fear of victim-blaming promotes a gag effect on sexual assault discussions similar to how abstinence-only camps ignore the consequences of sex because sex 'shouldn't be happening.' Sexual assaults shouldn't be happening either, but they do, and the more we educate women the better prepared they'll be to identify a bad situation and be proactive about their safety. We should strive to give women control of their bodies, their choices, and their sexuality and that comes with a share of responsibility, but not blame.

I don't leave my front door unlocked, even though I think everyone out there has an obligation not to burgle me.

And yet every media source in creation isn't falling all over itself to condescendingly explain to grown men and women that leaving one's door unlocked makes it easier for strangers to enter one's apartment and make off with one's material goods. Nor is there a long tradition of blaming and shaming burglary victims in such a way as to make them overcome with guilt and unwilling to report burglaries.

That analogy does not work very well at all, does it?

@ EG: you overapplied Ethylene's analogy and you know it. The burglary situation is an example of how we all take measures to protect our safety without assuming guilt or blame. It IS possible to do that, and that's what we SHOULD do. That is my interpretation of Ethylene's argument and of the site.

@ roymacIII: it sounds like you didn't even look at the site. It doesn't tell women not to drink nor does it slutshame. It's a pretty neutrally-toned site about being prepared, having options, and coping with bad situations. As a woman who was raped by a 'nice guy' when I got wasted at a party and decided to spend the night, I certainly wish someone had reached out to me first and helped me plan a safer exit strategy. And I say that knowing perfectly well that I shouldn't have been raped and it wasn't my 'fault', but I was just naive in thinking it couldn't happen to me and I'd know a rapist when I saw one. Not true.

i looked at that ipartysmarter website and it looked pretty much ijudgewomenwhoparty-ish to me.

it does look like their "program", which apparently you may have to pay for (which immediately calls into question its legitimacy imo) may include some information about birth control and protection from STIs, which of course i'm all for. i'm not even opposed to alcohol education, but as has been said here numerous times, why is it always directed specifically at women and always with the finger-wagging about "don't drink because you could get drunk and get raped!" i'd have a lot less beef with this approach if there were equally prevalent corresponding programs directed toward college-aged men that urged them to watch how much they drank because "you could get drunk and rape someone." to be honest, what little i've seen that directly refers to men in these programs seems to be much more beat-around-the-bush and implying that really it's not that they shouldn't drink beacuse they might rape someone, but they shouldn't get too drunk because they might end up with a girl who is drunk and consents at the time and later decides it is rape and the guy doesn't remember anything. which of course is completely fucked up.

anyway, i really do think the media freakout about college drinking is a bit silly and overblown. what i'm concerned about is decreasing the incidence of sexual assault and it just doesn't seem that our current methods of "education", including but not limited to the "girls, don't party!" approach, are failing miserably. time to try something else.

How is calling women with drinking problems stupid NOT shaming and victim blaming?

They do seem to be addressing women who possibly do things they regret because of a drinking problem, rather than rape victims, but that does not change the fact that the tone is condescending, shaming, and possibly victim blaming.

I find it interesting that people are so eager to use this to jump to concluding that feminists overreact, or take victim-blaming too far. You know, rather than honestly disagreeing that this instance is victim blaming.

lizadilly, there's just no good reason to make this kind of program gender-specific to women. ALL people can be irresponsible because of drinking. Things like unintended pregnancy and STI's that they list as risks of drinking are dangers shared by men and women alike. And yet it's only women who are held responsible for these things.

It is a free government program, sponsored by MN department of health. It's especially troubling that the government's attempt to curb the drinking culture among young people is aimed only at women.

There's a good letter to the editor about it here.

I went to the program website. The main issue is that is completely targeted towards women. I see it as victim blaming in the sense you should know what to expect if you drink/wear that kind of attitude, but the actual program itself has good ideas. I just do not like to tone that women should bear all responsibility and whatever happens to them is a result from their actions, not the perpetrator. It should be marketed to college students/young adults in general, not just women. I have friends both male and female that drink too much and would benefit from practicing safer partying.

Excerpt:
What will a woman get out of the program?

The program offers a woman information and support to help her learn how to stay safe and in charge.

* Find out how to party smarter without getting wasted and having regrets.
* Find out how to protect yourself from an unplanned pregnancy, a sexually transmitted infection and injury when you drink.
* Learn more about choosing and using birth control and how to cut down on your drinking.
* Learn about resources and services especially for college women: phone lines, website, and places and people to give you support.
* Receive $50 in gift cards if you complete the Smart Women Smart Choices program.

@ Geek: you're the only one so far who has called women with drinking problems "stupid."

I'd like to know what is so interesting about commentators observing trends in feminist rhetoric and discussing them. Is that out of line?

The truth is, we're serving no one if we can't talk about the real issues and work toward making things better. Alcohol being used as an instrument of rape is a real issue. I talked with my little sister about this. I told her how certain situations might feel, and how to assert herself, how to get out of there if she wanted to, or how to enjoy it safely if she wanted to. Does that make me a bad feminist, that I talked to her directly about her own sexuality instead of going over her head or waiting until something happened first?

There needs to be education for men & boys -- no question. But the lack of it does not mean that education for women = victim blaming.

Especially when you consider that, as opposed to rape, having sex you regret does not necessarily make you a "victim." We need to stop this double-talk that, on the one hand, women are always victims and are never able to consent to sex while partying, while on the other hand arguing that women are sexual beings with desires and needs and initiative. You can't have it both ways. Either women have sexual autonomy or they don't. If they do, that means they might get drunk and choose to have sex and later regret it because in the sober light of day it was awkward/unprofessional/risky/immoral/whatever. Deciding to call that "rape" or to put all the responsibilty on men only puts women on a pedestal, as if they cannot have bad judgment or sexual indiscretions just as men do -- a total fallacy.

Now please don't twist my words around as if I'm excusing any kind of rape. I'm talking about living with second thoughts about consentual encounters.

I have trouble imagining the sort of men who would commit sexual assault to be particularly open to the influence of public awareness campaigns. Women, on the other hand, all want to avoid being taken advantage of, so you can at least be assured that your target audience will be interested in what you're talking about.

Okay, first, I'm not calling women who drink stupid.

The website is titled "Smart Women Smart Choices," and that implies that women who don't make "smart" choice aren't smart. IOW, stupid. Just because it's not explicit doesn't mean it isn't there.

I NEVER suggested you were excusing rape and I don't think I even implied that anyone here was. I'm also not conflating regreted behavior with rape, as I specifically pointed out. I also didn't blame men for poor decision making that results from intoxication. Instead, I argue that shaming women by implying they are stupid if they drink and do irresponsible things is what is wrong with that website. Another thing that is wrong is that only women are taken to task for drinking and partying and doing things that are typically just expected from guys.

I'm talking about living with second thoughts about consentual encounters.

Then...why do you keep bringing this back to feminist discussions of victim blaming and rape? You said you talked to your sister about owning her sexuality, and that is a good thing. What would have been bad is if you'd said, "If you drink, you might do something stupid and regret it, and then you'll feel totally worthless, and you might well be, so don't drink. Also, you might get raped, so don't drink." That is the message that media outlets and whatnot give to women. Not that they should figure their sexuality and boundaries out before they throw alcohol in there, but that they shouldn't drink at all because of the horrible demoralizing consequences for women and only women.

The other part of that is, that yeah, it's important and good that you talked to your sister about her sexuality, and figuring it all out before she drinks, but the fact of the matter is, that people will do things they regret when they are drunk, and a) that is a separate issue from feminist discussions of consent and rape, and b) BFD. If I get rip-roaring drunk, and I do something stupid, like have sex without a condom or drunk-dial my mom, that's my responsibility. There is no one who doesn't know that drinking can cause you to do dumb stuff. Thus, it's every drinking person's responsibility to keep that in mind when they start imbibing. Again, that's a totally separate issue from rape, which isn't a decision making error on the part of the victim, so, again, has no business being a part of discussions regarding rape and consent.

you overapplied Ethylene's analogy and you know it.

No. I put Ethylene's analogy in the context of the argument we're having. The argument isn't whether or not women should drink themselves stupid/leave their doors unlocked. The question is what it means to give that particular advice in this particular manner in this particular context ad nauseam.

Are you kidding me? Seriously? I love the idea that my daughter has a site like this to contribute to her education... is it her fault if she gets raped? FUCK NO. Will I do everything I can to teach her how to avoid being in a risky situation? FUCK YES. You are an idiot if you don't want that for women.

If you'd rather women inwittingly place themselves in risky positions FOR A PRINCIPLE, then you are a dangerous individual, and should have NO say in how young women are educated.

Kudos to SWSC for putting this information out there and accessibly; especially in light of the fact that it is sure to be called victim blaming by people who don't understand the term "victim blaming" to begin with.

Prevention isn't victim blaming. Prevention is accepting rape. Prevention is smart, preparatory, and prudent. Rejoin us in the real world where knowing that bad shit SHOULDN'T happen doesn't magically stop it from happening.

Are you kidding me? Seriously? I love the idea that my daughter has a site like this to contribute to her education... is it her fault if she gets raped? FUCK NO. Will I do everything I can to teach her how to avoid being in a risky situation? FUCK YES. You are an idiot if you don't want that for women.

If you'd rather women inwittingly place themselves in risky positions FOR A PRINCIPLE, then you are a dangerous individual, and should have NO say in how young women are educated.

Kudos to SWSC for putting this information out there and accessibly; especially in light of the fact that it is sure to be called victim blaming by people who don't understand the term "victim blaming" to begin with.

Prevention isn't victim blaming. Prevention isn't accepting rape. Prevention is smart, preparatory, and prudent. Rejoin us in the real world where knowing that bad shit SHOULDN'T happen doesn't magically stop it from happening.

"The truth is, we're serving no one if we can't talk about the real issues and work toward making things better. Alcohol being used as an instrument of rape is a real issue. I talked with my little sister about this. I told her how certain situations might feel, and how to assert herself, how to get out of there if she wanted to, or how to enjoy it safely if she wanted to. Does that make me a bad feminist, that I talked to her directly about her own sexuality instead of going over her head or waiting until something happened first?"

I think those of us complaining that the programs are mostly directed towards women /are/ concerned about the real issues. Because, as roymac pointed out, when alcohol is involved in a rape situation, it's more often just the male who's intoxicated.

I also agree with the people saying "dude. Who /doesn't/ know that alcohol is unhealthy and impairs judgment?" These days we're all pretty much taught these things in 5th and 6th grade D.A.R.E., since most kids start drinking in jr. high or high school.

I also agree with whoever said that women especially, especially know/have been told that drinking puts them at risk for rape.

I think, personally, that young men and women need /way/ more education on what constitutes rape. A lot of men take advantage and are coercive, w/o realizing that their actions could technically be illegal.

If I was to name the number one thing that I think would make young women less likely to wind up having sex they didn't want (whether technically rape or not) at parties or in other situations, it would be to focus education on helping women to be less ashamed of their sexuality, and more assertive.

If I was to name the number one educational topic /period/ that I think would result in fewer "regrettable sexual situations" or rapes at parties or in other situations, it would be to educate boys/men, from as early an age as possible, to understand that women are sexual, that boys/men are perfectly capable of controlling their own behavior and should be expected to do so, and that women are human beings and that using any sort of coercion or force to get something a male's partner doesn't want is /wrong, wrong, wrong/. Will that stop all rapes? Absolutely not. But if we want to talk about things that at least have some chance of reducing rape, I think that's where to start...

And for all you who haven't seen this before, a pretty serious study in the 90s found that men raised in conservative environments with an emphasis on different gender roles are more likely to rape. So cultural belief absolutely influences the number of men who rape. And formal education at least has /some/ influence on cultural belief.

"There needs to be education for men & boys -- no question. But the lack of it does not mean that education for women = victim blaming."

Actually the lack of public education directed toward men in rape prevention, speaks to a greater issue of male privilege.

The message, or lack thereof, is a subtle absolution of male responsiblity; and thus reinforces once again the notion of the woman as sexual gatekeeper.

Which is a less-than-clever evasion.

Nobody is saying "we should have more of these sites at the expense of male education", what we're saying is "this is a GOOD thing, not victim blaming, and not a BAD thing".

"I have trouble imagining the sort of men who would commit sexual assault to be particularly open to the influence of public awareness campaigns."

Alice, just because some men might be resistant to the idea doesn't mean that men shouldn't be educated, IMO. When I was a kid I didn't want to go to school, but I still had to. Educating men will undoubtedly help to change societal attitudes about sexual assault such as victim blaming, what constitutes an assault and the fact that it's unacceptable. This would be an important tool in addressing the problem.

It's fine to teach women self-defense techniques and how to drink responsibly etc., but it's just as important to educate men on how to drink responsibly and prevention of committing sexual assault. As I said before, I don't see many campaigns being directed at men or the general public (men and women) about any of this. BOTH men and women need to be educated. It just makes common sense, saying that "some men won't like it" isn't an excuse to bypass educating them entirely.

but jer, that's exactly what "they" are saying by coming up with programs directed at women and not at men. our criticism isn't with the information itself necessarily, but the manner in which it's being presented because that's problematic. why isn't this just a "smart people, smart choices" program? wouldn't that be better?

but jer, that's exactly what "they" are saying by coming up with programs directed at women and not at men. our criticism isn't with the information itself necessarily, but the manner in which it's being presented because that's problematic. why isn't this just a "smart people, smart choices" program? wouldn't that be better?

but jer, that's exactly what "they" are saying by coming up with programs directed at women and not at men. our criticism isn't with the information itself necessarily, but the manner in which it's being presented because that's problematic. why isn't this just a "smart people, smart choices" program? wouldn't that be better?

And what some of us are saying is that these kinds of sites focusing solely on the actions of women with regards to drinking and sexual assault are a bad thing, precisely because they- deliberately or not- contribute to the attitude that it's women who are responsible for making sure that rape doesn't happen. Further, they reinforce social attitudes about what is and is not appropriate behavior for women, while ignoring the reality that drinking contributes more on the rapist side of the equation.

By itself? No, the site isn't the worst thing I've ever seen.

But, the site doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists in a social system that repeatedly tells women that they're responsible for their own rapes, and that, if only! If only! If only they had done something a little differently... something less foolish, like... perhaps not *gasp* gone out drinking like "the boys" do, then this horrible thing wouldn't have happened.

I'm all for advocating for responsible drinking, but I think that it contributes to harmful attitudes when we focus on the drinking habits of women while completely ignoring the drinking habits of men.

"Very true Alice. There is a difference between victim blaming and encouraging potential victims to educate themselves about the potential consequences."

Yeah, there's a huge difference between "you totally asked for it because you did X" and "if we do X we could decrease the odds of it happening to us again."

"There needs to be education for men & boys -- no question. But the lack of it does not mean that education for women = victim blaming."

I'm actually reminded a bit of a non-sexual comparison.

Think about it: Some people damage their hearing by exposing themselves to extra loud noise. Some people don't do that and still can't hear easily. Meanwhile, there isn't enough education getting hearing people to stop discriminating against deaf people. Does that mean "you can help preserve your hearing by not cranking the volume up all the way" advice = victim-blaming?

"I have trouble imagining the sort of men who would commit sexual assault to be particularly open to the influence of public awareness campaigns."

...except when the public awareness campaign panders to their urges, I guess. Do stuff like traditions of teaching "if she does A, B, and C then she's a slut!!!" count as public awareness campaigns?

"Prevention isn't victim blaming."

Indeed. Was my 7th grade science teacher bashing lung cancer patients when she talked about the risks of smoking? Were my parents bashing pregnant teens when they let me stay a virgin past menarche?

"I think, personally, that young men and women need /way/ more education on what constitutes rape. A lot of men take advantage and are coercive, w/o realizing that their actions could technically be illegal."

...and w/o realizing that being unable to get sex without raping is no justification for rape, I bet.

"Alice, just because some men might be resistant to the idea doesn't mean that men shouldn't be educated, IMO. When I was a kid I didn't want to go to school, but I still had to."

Right on!

"Think about it: Some people damage their hearing by exposing themselves to extra loud noise. Some people don't do that and still can't hear easily. Meanwhile, there isn't enough education getting hearing people to stop discriminating against deaf people. Does that mean "you can help preserve your hearing by not cranking the volume up all the way" advice = victim-blaming?"

I still think this is a bad analogy though. Listening to loud noises repeatedly /does/ lead directly to hearing loss. It's a biological thing and it's inevitable. Similarly, imbibing significant amounts of alcohol leads directly to brain and kidney damage. HOWEVER, imbibing large amounts of alcohol /does not/ lead directly to rape. If we lived in a culture less conducive to rape, then rape in drinking situations would be less as well...

Meanwhile, in other news, did anyone else see this article about the Miss Landmine Survivor pageant?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7315448.stm

The pageant's site is here:

http://www.miss-landmine.org/misslandmine_news.html

"I still think this is a bad analogy though."

Yeah, it's definitely not 100%.

"Listening to loud noises repeatedly /does/ lead directly to hearing loss. It's a biological thing and it's inevitable."

I knew it's a risk factor but I did't realize it was guaranteed to deafen one.

"Similarly, imbibing significant amounts of alcohol leads directly to brain and kidney damage. HOWEVER, imbibing large amounts of alcohol /does not/ lead directly to rape."

Good point. I was thinking more of how one can be raped without drinking, one can be deaf at birth, etc.

"I have trouble imagining the sort of men who would commit sexual assault to be particularly open to the influence of public awareness campaigns."

1. No one is immune to advertising.
2. One type of campaign was shown to have some good effects - it was based on showing men that other men are against rape. Apparently the attitudes of other men affect how willing the avg. guy is to intervene, etc.
3. Rape is a societal problem, not just a problem of a few random sociopaths. I mean yes, the sociopaths are out there, but there are also well-meaning guys who have been brought up in a culture that tells them girls are supposed to say no but probably don't mean it, that guys are supposed to push for more or else they look gay, that getting a girl to loosen up by getting her drunk and then having sex with her is just how things are done, etc. Education can correct these notions.

Perhaps a website like this wouldn't accomplish much, but there are certainly things that can be done, and are not.

I'm not against this kind of stuff, I mean for women, but I think it has to been handled very carefully. For Take Back the Night at my school, we had an all-male anti rape group come give a talk, and we did a bunch of other things that were about, well, how rape is wrong, what it is, etc, and then we had one event based on teaching self defense. We had to get a new teacher for it, too, because the first one was too victim blamey. I thought it was a good balance in the end.

"If I was to name the number one thing that I think would make young women less likely to wind up having sex they didn't want (whether technically rape or not) at parties or in other situations, it would be to focus education on helping women to be less ashamed of their sexuality, and more assertive."

AMEN! For me it's the assertiveness, now that I'm cool with my sexuality. I have a really really hard time verbally, directly confronting a guy who's doing something I'm uncomfortable with if I don't know him very well. It feels impossible in the moment, I know that's really un-empowered but it does. I can do something indirect, like move or not respond to his flirtation or something, but I can't say "No, stop" until I have a chance to go away and talk myself into saying that. I figure it's partially just me, but I think it must have something to do with the way girls are raised, too.

"Rape is a societal problem, not just a problem of a few random sociopaths. I mean yes, the sociopaths are out there, but there are also well-meaning guys who have been brought up in a culture that tells them girls are supposed to say no but probably don't mean it, that guys are supposed to push for more or else they look gay, that getting a girl to loosen up by getting her drunk and then having sex with her is just how things are done, etc. Education can correct these notions."

judges, AMEN!

The emphasis on women-as-victims that is so prevalent in discussions about rape not only puts way too much blame on women but also precludes any possible empathetic identifications that men could have.

I've been trying to think of how to broach the subject of rape with my younger brother, since he's been raised with pretty strict gender roles and very little direction of any kind about sexuality, and it seems like the best way to start (hopefully) is to talk to him about the fact that it is possible for men to be raped. I am hoping that this will help lead into a discussion of how to avoid raping someone else by getting him to think about his own boundaries and desires. (Wish me luck.)

judgesnineteen: 1. No one is immune to advertising.
2. One type of campaign was shown to have some good effects - it was based on showing men that other men are against rape. Apparently the attitudes of other men affect how willing the avg. guy is to intervene, etc.
3. Rape is a societal problem, not just a problem of a few random sociopaths. I mean yes, the sociopaths are out there, but there are also well-meaning guys who have been brought up in a culture that tells them girls are supposed to say no but probably don't mean it, that guys are supposed to push for more or else they look gay, that getting a girl to loosen up by getting her drunk and then having sex with her is just how things are done, etc. Education can correct these notions.

Good points. I guess anti-rape campaigns targeted at men would be useful.

"The emphasis on women-as-victims that is so prevalent in discussions about rape not only puts way too much blame on women but also precludes any possible empathetic identifications that men could have."

Great point.

"I've been trying to think of how to broach the subject of rape with my younger brother, since he's been raised with pretty strict gender roles and very little direction of any kind about sexuality, and it seems like the best way to start (hopefully) is to talk to him about the fact that it is possible for men to be raped."

That sounds like a good strategy.

iPartySmarter advertises in a local paper, and their ads are really irritating. They show an ugly guy with a drink in his hand and a cheesy pick-up line. Today there's the unibrow-man saying, "Wanna taste my fuzzy navel?"

I've never liked these ads and I never bothered to look at the Web site until today. I don't see as much of the slut-shaming and victim-blaming as other people do, but I definitely get the feeling of "women must be responsible because men just can't control themselves".

(Also, I can't remember who asked what the cost of the course was, but the Web site says it's free. I wonder what you have to sign, though.)

"There needs to be education for men & boys -- no question."

I don't rape women, and never will. I don't feel as though I need to be educated about sexual assault when I am not guilty of any crime. Also, wouldn't classes focusing on men's responsibility to NOT RAPE PEOPLE perpetuate the stereotype that men are uncontrollable, sex starved pariahs who need a heavy dose of indoctrination to fight their biological urge to commit heinous acts?

Just a thought...

In the article about feminism/beauty... its interesting how they say that feminists are more likely to be open minded towards both "overweight" and "underweight" women... because loving someone's natural body often means a very skinny body.. some people are naturally very thin and they shouldn't be criticized for that either. i myself am not one of them, but i have friends who are naturally very thin and are sometimes criticized for not being "womanly"-looking.

oh, and:

"Feminism,� the authors write, “does appear to afford women a more inclusive perception of who is physically attractive."

I LOVE it! its like "gee, it appears that feminism seemingly doesnt suck after all!"

myono2... you're right
most men aren't these "sex starved pariahs" as you put it, and it isn't fair to perpetuate the stereotype that all men are like that. however, i dont think its anyones intention to do that. its just that the large majority of rapists/perpetrators of sexual assault are men. women can be too, but most are men, and in an attempt to simplify language, people often say things like "men need to be.." and so on. i understand how you could be offended by that, though.
but when someone says "there needs to be education for men and boys", its not necessarily education that starts off with "we know you're all sick pervs with the potential to rape women"... the majority of rapes that occur are acquaintance rapes, in which the perpetrator (often a male) doesnt even know what he's doing is rape because we've been taught that it isn't considered rape when the girl is drunk/unable to consent. this doesnt make the rapist any less guilty of rape, but its an example of why more men/boys need to be educated about rape, what is considered rape, etc.

and also, in designing classes/programs for educating boys and men about these issues, its not like they (whoever "they" are) can pick out the ones who look like future rapists to educate, and leave the nice guys alone... i dont think that'd be very easy to do.

myon02--i'm sure that most men wouldn't either, but that's not the point. the point is that educating everyone in the right way can result in a lower incidence of sexual assault.

maybe you would have learned to read on your own as well, but does that make public education a waste of effort? i'm pretty sure i would have refrained from joining a gang or smoking crack without DARE and the like, but does that mean such programs are unnecessary? your argument here is pretty weak.

as for the propagation of the idea that men are uncontrollable brutes, i agree that such indoctrination is sexist and problematic. however, i think that can be dealt with accordingly by making education on this topic non-gendered altogether. the fundamentals here shouldn't be teaching that men are sex-crazed neanderthals who have to control their urges or that women are fragile, sexless gatekeepers who have to stay indoors and not tease and excite the menz too much. to me the crux of this issue is teaching throughout children's lives that everyone matters, that everyone is equally possessing of sexual autonomy and deserving of equal respect as human beings. it would probably also help raise consciousness of the fact that men are victims of sexual assault as well and make more male victims feel ok to come forward.

as has been so nicely put here already, the problem is not that a few sociopathic individuals will rape--this will likely always be the case no matter what, but that our current culture impresses some pretty messed up ideas upon the REST of us that result in some probably otherwise decent people to commit sexual assault and not even believe that they are really doing anything wrong. i'm not trying to excuse the poor, confused rapists or anything, just pointing out that it does seem to me that more people commit such acts than otherwise would if the dominant paradigm of gender and sexual politics was different.

lizadilly:
I can not thank you enough for your post. In short, I agree with you. At length, and at the risk of coming off as Laura Sessions-Stepp (ugh), it iiiiisssssss possible, as a woman, to have utterly regrettable sex without having been coerced or raped. This can happen for a number of reasons, and drinking does not necessarily aid in one's judgment to make the correct sexual decision for oneself. I'm all for a resource that purports to help individual women make the best and safest choice for themselves.

To me, part of the problem is that we assume only women can be raped, and only evil men can be rapists. Teaching men not to commit rape makes people with "only evil men can be rapists" stuck in their head think that you think that all men are evil, and teaching only women to avoid rape teaches women and men that men can't be raped. Also, I wonder how many teenage boys were statutorily raped because the adult women involved didn't think it was rape.

So perhaps we need campaigns to teach *people* not to rape and not to be raped. Obviously, men are much, much more likely to commit rape, but by including women in the message (for instance, sections on jailbait could include boys who were statutorily raped and subsequently had their lives or sex drives fucked up; no, no matter what Hollywood or the boy himself tells you, fucking a 14-year-old boy when you're 28 is not a victimless crime, it is *rape*), we can reduce the "rapists are evil pervs who jump out of bushes" meme and reinforce "rapists look just like everyone else, and act just like everyone else when they're not raping, so make sure *you're* not one of them."

And then by reinforcing "how to avoid being raped" messages to men *and* women we reduce the "only women can be raped" stigma on raped men *and* raise consciousness among men that yes, rape is bad and you wouldn't like it if it happened to you, and it *could* happen to you so how about a little empathy? No one stigmatizes burglary victims because anyone can be burglarized; it's only the crimes that can be committed against just a certain type of person, where everyone else can keep from feeling empathy, that stigmatize the victims this way. Make men feel empathy for rape victims by reminding them that rape happens to men too, and maybe fewer of them will rape.

All by itself, this site doesn't sound objectionable. In fact I'm strongly in favor of sites that teach young women how to be safer and avoid some rape risk. It's *not* true that everyone just knows this shit by osmosis; as well argue that you shouldn't teach sex ed because everyone knows it. Teens *don't* know this stuff, usually. I didn't know when I first went to college that men put date rape drugs in women's drinks; I was taught to watch out for that, and I learned to get my soda from a fresh can (I am a teetotaler, always have been, so for me it's soda) and be vigilant about my drink. That wasn't something I just knew.

The problem isn't teaching women to reduce rape risk, it's that that is the only thing we do. And that, having reinforced the message to women that any man can rape you and we must be constantly vigilant, then men don't understand and blame us for acting like they are all potentially dangerous predators, because they don't realize we are getting these messages. Actually *men* would be safer, both from the rare rapes they suffer and from the epidemic of murder and violence they suffer from, if *they* understood that men are potentially dangerous predators. And that if men don't want to be seen that way, maybe as a group they need to exert peer pressure on other men to keep them from raping or committing violence.

To me, part of the problem is that we assume only women can be raped, and only evil men can be rapists. Teaching men not to commit rape makes people with "only evil men can be rapists" stuck in their head think that you think that all men are evil, and teaching only women to avoid rape teaches women and men that men can't be raped. Also, I wonder how many teenage boys were statutorily raped because the adult women involved didn't think it was rape.

So perhaps we need campaigns to teach *people* not to rape and not to be raped. Obviously, men are much, much more likely to commit rape, but by including women in the message (for instance, sections on jailbait could include boys who were statutorily raped and subsequently had their lives or sex drives fucked up; no, no matter what Hollywood or the boy himself tells you, fucking a 14-year-old boy when you're 28 is not a victimless crime, it is *rape*), we can reduce the "rapists are evil pervs who jump out of bushes" meme and reinforce "rapists look just like everyone else, and act just like everyone else when they're not raping, so make sure *you're* not one of them."

And then by reinforcing "how to avoid being raped" messages to men *and* women we reduce the "only women can be raped" stigma on raped men *and* raise consciousness among men that yes, rape is bad and you wouldn't like it if it happened to you, and it *could* happen to you so how about a little empathy? No one stigmatizes burglary victims because anyone can be burglarized; it's only the crimes that can be committed against just a certain type of person, where everyone else can keep from feeling empathy, that stigmatize the victims this way. Make men feel empathy for rape victims by reminding them that rape happens to men too, and maybe fewer of them will rape.

All by itself, this site doesn't sound objectionable. In fact I'm strongly in favor of sites that teach young women how to be safer and avoid some rape risk. It's *not* true that everyone just knows this shit by osmosis; as well argue that you shouldn't teach sex ed because everyone knows it. Teens *don't* know this stuff, usually. I didn't know when I first went to college that men put date rape drugs in women's drinks; I was taught to watch out for that, and I learned to get my soda from a fresh can (I am a teetotaler, always have been, so for me it's soda) and be vigilant about my drink. That wasn't something I just knew.

The problem isn't teaching women to reduce rape risk, it's that that is the only thing we do. And that, having reinforced the message to women that any man can rape you and we must be constantly vigilant, then men don't understand and blame us for acting like they are all potentially dangerous predators, because they don't realize we are getting these messages. Actually *men* would be safer, both from the rare rapes they suffer and from the epidemic of murder and violence they suffer from, if *they* understood that men are potentially dangerous predators. And that if men don't want to be seen that way, maybe as a group they need to exert peer pressure on other men to keep them from raping or committing violence.

myono2 et al.,

No, most men are not rapists, although a significant percent are sooner or later. However, I would hazard a guess that the majority of men (and plenty of women too) are what I would call /rape enablers/. That is, that if they heard of a situations that feminists/progressive lawmakers would call rape, a lot of the time they wouldn't hold the "rapist" at fault. This is sort of reflected, I think, in two surveys that have been published -one studying a large Canadian University, the other studying a large US University, that each found that about 60% of college-age males would force a sex act on a woman if they thought they would not be caught and punished for it...

Also, studies that look at how many men /have been/ rapists, find that significantly more men answer in the affirmative to having used force to get some sort of sex, than would anser in the affirmative to having raped someone.

So there are, in fact, widespread misconceptions about what constitutes rape. And there are also widespread false beliefs about how women and men are just "different" and how that somehow makes it okay for me to use coercion or force to get sex. These false cultural beliefs existed long before feminists came into the picture, and I'm pretty sure feminist educators want to /debunk/ them, not perpetuate them.

So yes, obviously /both men and women/ need to be educated. It's true men can be raped too... and I can see why it would be good to include that; I have a feeling people would be more likely to see that as abbhorent automatically though, b/c men are usually raped by other men...

I will say though that when men and women are raised culturally to approach sex differently, can you really take care of everything by throwing them all in the same class together though? I know that with sex ed, my school found it appropriate to start out by teaching the girls and boys separately, focusing on the material that would each affect themselves the most. Then when we were a bit older, they taught us both the same material together. I wonder if that would be a good format for teaching about sex/relationship violence. Start out by having girls and boys separate, and let them talk about their own experiences and try and debunk myths, and then at a later stage move them both together.

And to whoever keeps saying "sex while drunk that is later regretted is not always rape" I think you are missing the point. I don't know that many people who would argue with you, personally, so I feel like you are creating a straw feminist. As I've said on this site numerous times, if the female gave enthusiastic consent at the time, I seriously doubt she is going to accuse anyone of rape later. I think situations in which the woman is drunk and later someone says it was rape tend to be situations in which A) she was passed out B) force was used C) there was a noticible lack of affirmative consent and the girl/woman was just passive. Some people, but especially females, have trouble being assertive sommetimes and all the moreso when they're drunk... thus it is up to the partner (female or male) to ascertain that the person really, truly wants to go through with the act... rather than simply using their body like a toy.

RE: Statutory rape. Yeah, I agee this is often a problem when there is a large age difference and a power imbalance. But sometimes in some states it can be statutory rape in cases where there is really not all that much of an age difference, and mutual love and consent. Where do you draw the line? I guess I'm not saying that statutory rape shouldn't be part of an education about sexual violence... but I think it should be sectioned off separately and the focus should be on sex without affirmative consent.

I think what's most often /called/ "regret sex" though, by persons at large, is drunk sex in which affirmative consent /was not/ given. And for those cases, education of men is especially important as well...

Ninapendamaishi: To me, "regret sex" would be consensual sex that you later regretted regardless of the reason. Alcohol may play a part, but it certainly does NOT have to. Usually it does, and thus we have laws like "any sex while the woman is intoxicated is rape" nonsense (to say nothing of the man's intoxication and responsibility).

Any sex in which "affirmation consent was not given" is rape, not regret sex.

Peripatetic,

I agree with you. I was trying to talk about common misconceptions, and complaints made by other posters on the thread.

I was also simply making the point though that I think irregardless of the "no consent can be given under the influence of alcohol" laws, that women probably aren't going to say rape happened afterwards unless it actually /did/ according to our definition of rape. So although the laws could be more refined, I really don't feel like those laws are all that much unjust threat to men, either... See, in a legal system in which the burden for proving consent is /not/ affirmative consent, but is rather the absence of "no", then being drunk certainly makes it less likely women will assert themselves strongly and clearly articulate "no".

I think if our legal system looked for the absence of affirmative consent instead of a clearly articulated "no" to determine whether rape occured (certainly /my/ ideal), the alcohol law as-is would make less sense...