Then go on with your bad self! Time to enter the Friday Random Music 10 sweepstakes and justify your choices! Just kidding; the world needs another random music post like it needs a whiny-assed emo scruffy pseudo folk-singer warbling over a Zune commercial.

As for Ms. Douglas' point, I don't necessarily think that an intellectual approach to rock (obsessive cataloging or highfalutin' prog-rock pretension) is necessarily a good thing. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to see whether my Japanese import of a King Crimson live concert is in VG or simply G condition.

Uh, I've never seen anyone, man or woman, wonder, "Where has this album been made?"

How would that be intellectual anyway? Just because its a boring fact doesn't mean its intellectual.

I second norbizness's motion for a Feministing Friday Random Ten.

And if Lesley Douglas pays attenion to groups of listeners, like I do, then she would know that when it comes to the gender of Top 40 listeners, more women listen to top 40 music than men by almost 14 (56%) to 11 (44%) ratio. R&B listeners are 50-50 besed on gender.

And yeah, there are a significant amount of women who listen to Dream Theater's 42-minute long "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence" and other progressive rock. So that right there busts her sexist claims that men are "intellectual" listeners.

See, I kind of read that as a between-the-lines slam on men: "Men tend to act out their insecurities through becoming a pretentious, pedantic 'expert' on music and musical taste, whereas women just listen to it for their personal enjoyment, as it should be." But, maybe I just have an incredibly low tolerance for Young Male Insufferable Music Snobs, and I'm putting my own bias on it. ;)

Haha! The caption along with this picture made my morning!

Thank you.

In my (admittedly anecdotal) experience, there is actually some truth to this. Ms. Douglas didn't explain it well - maybe she even meant it differently than I see it - but the second-to-last and last paragraphs express it pretty accurately.

My husband and his friends can go on for days about the minutiae of various albums and bands, while I sit there bored out of my mind. It doesn't mean I'm not interested, just that the enjoyment I get out of the music has very little to do with the trivial facts about it (I can't even remember song or album titles most of the time - I have to sing it or describe the context in which I first heard it). It does exclude me from that conversation though, just as someone who doesn't join in on any other conversational topic ends up excluded somewhat. And I know I'm not the only one who's experienced this because I've had plenty of side conversations with my husband's friends female partners while the men are talking about music.

Also, it didn't seem to me like Ms. Douglas was making a value statement at all. I can see how it might seem like it, since "intellectual" is usually considered better than "emotional", but Ms. Douglas was using that difference to try to get more women listening, which probably wouldn't work if she were simultaneously overtly insulting them.

I know plenty of male music nerds who gush about a track they like or a band they love. I've personally never cared who sang/played a song, any longer than it took me to grab a pencil and scribble their name down so I could remember it long enough to buy the CD. Hurray! I must have a vagina!

Lesley is clearly just working from anecdotal evidence, making his viewpoint clearly about his personal perspective than reality.

Unfortunately, I see a high chance that the less-than-rigorous BBC Science section will pick up on this "study".
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@Wildberry -- I plan on shamelessly stealing "just because its a boring fact doesn't mean its intellectual" to gently zing some of my trivia-obsessed friends :D

ah, shit -- that should have been, "making HER viewpoint clearly about HER personal perspective"

What a classic example of personal expectations leading to stupid mistakes! (blush)

Gah. Not only an example of stereotyping, but an example of how something associated with women is considered inferior. I suppose no man would respond to music *emotionally*. That would be girlish and icky.

And no one could possibly have both an emotional and intellectual response to music, I suppose. Or would that make you gender non-conforming?

"Seriously, we might as well hold our iPods up to our vaginas."

You may think you're just joking, but you're not.

http://www.ohmibod.com/ohmibod.html

Let's play Reverse the Data (though I use the term "data" very loosely) and see what new unfalsifiable conclusion we can come up witn! Women are more interested in "the tracks, where albums have been made." Well, you see, that's because women are good at passive memorization. Men have the higher faculties to connect with albums on a musical level, which is closely related to the math skills they also tend to have more of.

I love this game!

Waxghost, in my experience, there's no truth to that at all, and I see the opposite occur far more often, which is exactly why I hate it when "authorities" say stuff like that. It reinforces stereotypes about men and women that basically suck. And whether or not a value statement was being made intentionally, most cultures value intellect over emotion, and so it still came out as a value statement. It also seems to follow in the same vein as women being supposedly worse musicians, b/c, you know, men are so much more serious about their music. It really pisses me off.

Anecdotal counterpoint: I dated a woman for a year and a half whose musical tastes were both way awesomer and more deeply thought through. Whenever I need new tunes I check in on what she's listening to.

Also, I was introduced to relatively "intellectual" prog-rockers Yes by a woman.

If you look at the article, this doesn't even say whether it's based on a study or anything; it's just the opinion of one radio exec.

Rock on, ladies.

Maybe it's because I'm hungover (yes, I know it's Wednesday. I do regret my affair with wine last night) but I'm confused by the article. Is it for or against Ms. Douglas?

Not that I need to argue about WHY this woman is wrong in her assumptions, but for shits and giggles: I happen to like to discover and look up facts about my favorite music and artists.

Wildberry, I agree wholeheartedly that being in possesion of a plethera of boring facts does not the intellect make. I will argue that I am interested in where albums are made- depending on how much I love the music, not so I can go debate with some Fallout Boy look-alike.

My favorite band since I was 12 is Incubus. They're album 'Morning View' was made on the street 'Morning View' in Malibu. I disocvered this a couple of years ago when I was working in Malibu for the summer and went past the street on the bus. I then realized that the album cover is of the coast right there and subsequently googled all this to check. I feel very connected to that album and Malibu because of that summer, my love for Incubus, etc. Probably this is because I am a woman and am very EMOTIONAL about my music. There I go looking up facts and then feeling all attached to the music because of it! ; )

And Benquo- I want to buy the Ohmibod. It looks awesome.

I just feel like she couldn't have found more offensive language than what she used.

Why could she not have said: Men focus more on the technical side of music while women focus more on on the lyrics and overall product.

Also even if it is true despite her crappy word choice you have to wonder if it's due to society supporting male's interest into music harder and for longer than women's than anything else

kmp is right.
i also think that there is something of a popular perception that ms. douglas' opinions are correct, but that it has more to do with the emergence in the media of characters who are dorky white guys obsessed with collecting, cataloging, and trying to outdo each other with music, e.g., high fidelity.

There seems to be some discrepancy here. Is this Lesley person a man or a woman? And why do we care what she/he has to say about the way people listen to music?
I'm gonna go listen to my favorite CD and have a good cry...and then I'll discuss the interesting chord phrasing in the 55 measure of track 3 with some buddies over coffee.

I think this article is misunderstood because it's wording isn't laid out very well.
It is proven that men and women's brains think differently, in turn, they interpret music differently. Women tend to listen to a lot of music that they can emotionally relate to (not saying that's ALWAYS the case) whereas men don't because they aren't capable of being being as emotiona las we are. It's not sexist, it's just the way it is. I don't know about this "more intellectual" crap, because I don't find where an album is made, the lyrics etc as anything "intellectual," but more behind-the-scenes. Whoever wrote this article should've thought it out a bit more because it's almost like they're going by the whole "men are run by logic, women are run by emotions" bullshit which really burns my bubble. IT reminds me of this douchebag my fiance used to work with who used to live by that, and sit there and bash women in front of me in my own home.
It makes me wish I had discovered feminism earlier, so I could've told him where to go and make him feel like the idiot he is.

I don't doubt that men and women think differently, but if this author is correct, women are way ahead of the guys in this regard.

Guys, what the hell are we analyzing tracks for? Music is made to elicit an emotional response.

The thing that irritates me is that she thinks that knowing random trivia is intellectual, as opposed to actually knowing something about music. Anyone could know where the album was made...

This annoys me so much on so many levels. For one, I am the type to research bands I like, see where they are from, see what their influences or other bands have been, read lyrics, etc, etc..

Secondly, this implies it extends into other areas. Are women emotional art viewers and men intellectual art viewers? Are women then also emotional car buyers while men buy cars using intellectual processes.

This is just buying in to the good 'ol gender stereotype of emotion vs. reason.

Rachel, I completely agree with you. (Also, my name is really Rachel, so it felt weird to type that.)

More and more, I'm starting to think that this categorization of things as either intellectual or emotional, but never both, stinks of desperation.

All those head-bangers at metal shows (almost exclusively male) seem to only be enjoying the music on a visceral level.

It is proven that men and women's brains think differently, in turn, they interpret music differently.

I'm so tired of that claim. In what way, specifically? Which studies? How rigorous was the testing? What was their starting point (i.e. were they starting off looking for differences, or did they believe that there weren't any?)?

What about Janet Hyde's findings that we're more alike than not?

Women tend to listen to a lot of music that they can emotionally relate to (not saying that's ALWAYS the case) whereas men don't because they aren't capable of being being as emotiona las we are.

Wait... whaaaat?!

It's not sexist, it's just the way it is.

It may not be sexist (although I disagree there), but that's most certainly NOT "just the way it is." What, men are just genetically incapable of emotional response? Women are just naturally more emotional? What?

Whoever wrote this article should've thought it out a bit more because it's almost like they're going by the whole "men are run by logic, women are run by emotions" bullshit which really burns my bubble.

But that's pretty much what you just did too! You just pulled the whole "women are more emotional/in touch with their emotions than men are". The only difference was that you left off the "men are more logical" bit at the end!

Also, don't music composers write music to elicit an EMOTIONAL response from the audience, not an "intellectual" one? Like, say, Ode to Joy or something?

Funny, while researching I found an article about the differences between men and women for classical music. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9503E2DF1531F936A25752C1A962958260

I keep thinking of my boyfriend who listens to rap in an "emotional" way, to feel uplifted and whatnot. Guess he listens to music like woman.

And yes wildberry, doesn't good music evoke an emotional reaction?

Actually, yes, some men are highly interested "the tracks, where albums have been made, that sort of thing", and those interested are overwhelmingly men.

How that's "the intellectual side" of the music is not clear. Perhaps he meant the infantile side of music?

"It is proven that men and women's brains think differently, in turn, they interpret music differently. "

Chantilly,
In repeat studies it has been proven both genders brains are similar and in fact often overlap (as in sometimes men will be more emotional than a woman, and vice versa defying stereotypes). It has also been shown that the way you are raised developes brain functioning. So its not that girls arent good at running, its that Jane Doe is not good at running because her parents thought she should fit the mold of passive female vessel so she never learned. It has also been shown that you can grow certain areas of your brain the more you get involved in activities that grow that part of your brain.

"It's not sexist, it's just the way it is."

If you are to believe that, then you are to believe the rule that mental limits are impossible to overcome based on gender. I.e. that a woman can never be as good as math as a man and a guy can never be as good an artist.

" Guys, what the hell are we analyzing tracks for? Music is made to elicit an emotional response. "

Tim,

Guys ARE doing that. Dont buy into the article.

I don't know why or how this would be the case at all. Music is inherently emotional. That's the whole point of music. You don't need to know anything about the artist or about music in general to listen to it. You don't even have to know the language.

Chantilly, I spent months going through the "Oh shit, every song is about HER" phase a couple of years ago. What makes you think you're more emotional than me?

I also have a female friend who is intensely into classical music and can think about it analytically much more than I can--for me it's more like "Oh, that was a nice note, now there's another nice note, and a whole bunch more nice notes."

Actually, yes, some men are highly interested "the tracks, where albums have been made, that sort of thing", and those interested are overwhelmingly men.

Citation please.

The word "intellectual" does not mean what she thinks it does.

WTF. Me and my dad got into an argument just last night about who originally performed one of the songs on American Idol, and I totally schooled him. So much for his manly ability to remember "the tracks, where albums have been made, that sort of thing."

I suspect that 99% of us listen to 99% of the music we encounter with our brains on autopilot anyhow.

I am going to start off by saying that I didnt say men couldn't be emotional. That was not my intention and I apologize if I have offended anyone.
Also, I have read many articles about the differences in men and women's brains and the way they think, and never seen a single article on how they think the same. I think it is possible that maybe both sides will have strong points.
As a newcomer to feminism, I am very open to others' opinions and views, and would never say anything on this site to purposely offend someone. I'm not going to sit here and go on about what I have read vs. what you say, I only ask for maybe a few links to see the opposing side.

As of right now, I stand by my beliefs, but I am more than open to what any of you have to say as long as you're not mean!
Because of this thread, I want to do an article on this subject for my next zine. So if you want to e-mail me directly with links or anything else, please direct them to: chantal.artist@gmail.com.

:)

Hey, Chantilly, RoymacIII gave you a great link to find more articles on gender similarities. The news release he linked to is a perfect primer. Putting "gender differences" into the search bar on that site should give you more of what you seek. You can also try looking at http://www.apa.org/topics/topicwomenmen.html

This might be a little off topic, but it is about the whole brain thing.

I remember once one of my teachers lamented the fact that some guy was fired because he suggested research to see if there were any truth to men being smarter than women. Well, I don't know if he should have gotten fired, but he certainly is an idiot.

First of all, like someone else said, people's brains will be better developed in the areas that we use the most. So, you may find that men's brains are generally better suited to math and engineering than women's, but that's likely because boys are encouraged to develop those areas of their brains, beginning with the toys we give them.

And even if he COULD prove that men were inherently smarter than women? What would he propose be done with this knowledge? How many people would use that as a justification for discrimination? Even if such a thing were true, I'd say it's better that we don't discover it.

Speaking as a musician, I think that "how you tend to look at music" tends to have more to do with how much you're educated and indoctrinated into various parts of it than anything else. I may not know everything about who engineered the track, but I have as much interest as any man in how the music is structured, the chord progressions, melodic structure etc. ad nauseum. I think that guys are taught to relate to each other via facts, and so you see the obsessive collecting of trivia.

As a female music major, I was very confused for a good 10 seconds or so. How is the analysis of pieces that I do in my music theory class any less intellectual because I have a vagina? If the article is saying that women listen to music and are affected emotionally, but men like researching the background of their music and are affected by this intellectually, we're talking about two different things. An intellectual response to music might be "Hey, that's an innovative chord progression!" not "Hey, I know this song, it was produced in 2006 at blah blah blah." Anyone can research the history of anything if they're so inclined; it has absolutely nothing to do with how men and women "process" music differently. I know both men and women who have been reduced to tears from listening to music; genitals don't enter into it.

The tracks? Where the album was made? Did he just say women listen to music to feel a reaction but men listen to a song to remind them of their favorite mental database about that song? That would make men pedantic philistines, and women, you know, a better audience.

And bluemoose is right, you can have a bunch of useless details memorized but still be talking out of your ass. Like those guys who pretend they can hear the difference between a CD and an MP3 on a set of computer speakers because they know there's supposed to be a difference so they're sure they can hear it.

Ha! Tell that to my dad, an devoted music fan who doesn't believe you CAN have a legitimate reaction to music that doesn't involve your gut and/or soul.

Which is why I play four different instruments, compose music, and can memorize entire symphonies just by listening to them once through. 'Cause I ain't smart.

"Seriously, we might as well hold our iPods up to our vaginas."

Ok, show of hands: who's already placed her order for the OhMiBod?! Excuse me while I make a playlist that's suitably emotional and sexy for this brilliant gadget ...

I am a woman who works in the music industry, and I am a total music nerd. I am actually interested in things like where an album was recorded, because I'm very sensitive to production - drum sound, vocal mix, etc. - and just as certain musicians have distinctive styles, so do certain producers. I have actually bought records because they were produced by someone I liked, without knowing the band. And production is not the area of the music industry in which I work - it's just something I follow. Interest in such things isn't "pedantic" - it's just being interested in exploring a different aspect of music. Showing off that knowledge is irritating, but I know both men and women who do so.

It's idiotic to think that women listen to music emotionally, and men listen to it intellectually. Any music that is compelling is compelling on an emotional level first and foremost. If I hear a record I love, and I want to find out more about the production, or the label, or the year it was made, etc., that interest starts with engaging with the music on an emotional level. Music is emotional. Period. Try to think of a song you've liked that you haven't had some sort of emotional reaction to. You can't, because if you don't respond emotionally to a song, you don't like it and it's not memorable, whether you're male or female.

Can't say I understand the appeal of the ohmibod (though good for you when you find something you like), but that might be due to my musical tastes. I like songs that make me sad, and especially guilt-repentance-loss songs. Fortunately, I lack the particular neurosis that would enable me to enjoy pleasuring myself to Bach's "Erbarme Dich."

Can't say I understand the appeal of the ohmibod (though good for you if you've found something you like), but that might be due to my particular taste in music. I love sad guilt-loss-repentance music, and lack the particular neurosis necessary to enjoy pleasuring myself to Bach's "Erbarme Dich."

If I like a band or singer enough, I will do research about it. Same if I like a director or an actor, or writer or comedian or any artist! If I like it, it interests me.
I can tell you all kinds of trivial things about the Beatles, Jon Stewart, Mark Twain, Hitchcock etc..

And I am definitely female.
I hate pieces like this, and I thank feminism for letting me see I'm not the only one who thinks this is BS.

Why is this so surprising? Would anyone here seriously dispute that our society systematically disrespects men who are emotional? What avenues of experiencing music are left to men when the emotional ones are suppressed?

Music is all about emotional response. Why do you think they use soundtrack scores in the movies? Have you ever tried watching a particularly emotional scene with the sound off? All the technical details are geared towards producing a more effective presentation, which is ... what? A bigger emotional response. I don't see why characterizing women as responding more emotionally to music is a slam. All it really says is that you are (allowed to be) more in tune with the aspect of music which is really at its core.

Again, men are told to wall that part of themselves off. I am one of the relatively few men who are (or who will admit to being) moved to tears by a particularly good performance. In many social circles that would earn me no end of grief.

That said, I do enjoy the technical aspects of musical production. For one thing, I enjoy recording and producing my own music, and I appreciate gaining knowledge that can improve the sound I'm trying to create. There are many aspects to that, whether compositional, lyrical, or recording/technical. I don't tend to go in for things like which studio a track was produced in, since that isn't something I can apply to my own practice.

The music industry is pretty male dominated, and musicians are sort of masculine icons in the same model as sports stars. I don't think that it's a difference in how you listen to or appreciate music, but I don't think it's unreasonable either to say that men are more likely to develop an additional interest in the history and technical details and assorted minutiae. There's just a lot more there for them to relate to. The irony is that it's really an emotional connection to the romantic ideal of musicianship that drives that interest.

Hey there – this is Gillian here from TheLipster.com, the new sharp and smart pop culture website for women. There is an article on the site about Lesley Douglas’s comments here: http://www.thelipster.com/articles/2943839

If you’d like to add to the discussion please do sign up for the site and have a look around while you’re at it.

Enjoy!

Gillian x

i am not sure of this at all. Women are more intelligent when it comes to music.

women are definitely more intelligent when it comes to music. I am not sure where you coming from.
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