Lord this makes me just cry; a normal teenage breakup? Yeah. Right. This girl left her abusive boyfriend and then was desperate to keep him from I don't know killing her? And the police couldn't be bothered because you know those highschool romances. Those teenage girls tend to get over emotional when they are being stalked, harassed, and beat.

I am just sick.

Do we need to travel around the country and tell every single police officer why they have to pay attention to these kinds of complaints?

Something similar happened here in Phoenix, though the police did not ignore the poor girl, at least. In fact, there was an order of protection (or an induction against harassment or something), but it hadn't been served yet. She was walking down the street when he (the abusive ex) killed her then killed himself. Sadly, I don't think there was much anyone could do -- even if the papers had been served, they wouldn't have stopped him. And I'm not sure what the police could have done in this case, either. Telling her she needs to stop calling is horrible and the police NEEEEED to take this stuff seriously (obviously), but their only real course of action would have been to put an order of protection out against him. I doubt they had any reason to arrest him. It's sad. :/

How sad and horrifying! My heart goes out to this girl, her parents, friends, and relatives!

In an apartment building I lived in once there was a man that was completely frightening to me. He would stare at me out the window and I felt very unsafe. I called the police and they said the would put an extra patrol car in the area. I did notice the increased amount of survelience by the police. I don't think my situation is that common, probably there would not have been an extra patrole car sent out in most places in this country.

These police need to be educated on these issues-in fact it should be mandatory to be a police officer. This just affirms to me how patriarchal this society still is...

...my heart goes out to her...gosh...

Marilee, if he hit her in the face that's pretty clear evidence of assault. He could've been arrested, and maybe gotten some mental help-- and then they might both be alive. They could have at least tried.

"Basically we have a very young couple who are experiencing, at least up until last Friday evening, just very normal relationship problems."

Right, physical abuse and threats are part of all teenage relationships. We can't imagine why she kept calling us for help. How could we have known that it would end like this? What were we supposed to do, take the girl seriously?

For fuck's sake.

This makes me wonder what the police response would have been if the girl had her father call the station to complain about the boyfriend...

The lack of police help with violence against women is repulsive. It seems (to me) that someone has to kill you or nearly kill you for your complaints to be considered anything than female hysteria and paranoia. Just the other day I saw a case of a man who for a year and a half, psychologically tormented a woman by stalking her, messing with her car, going into her home when she wasn't there..the police finally did something when he put liquid mercury in her car. The laws wouldn't allow them to.
This case seems like police abuse to me, not just "we don't have the authority" to do that. There's no amount of apologizing that can get this poor young woman back.

Did any of you guys actually read the article?

I'm all in favor of sending these stalkers to prison before they kill people but the girl and her family declined to press charges on ANY of the previous violent incidents.

In order to prosecute someone for this, you need a cooperating victim, someone who will go to court and press charges.

She was not willing to do that, and it contributed to her death.

I think the police share some blame too, but they cant arrest someone without a cooperating witness and throw him in jail for any significant period of time. The guy woulda been released in a few days when the police found out that no charges were being filed by the victim, and thats the end of it.

The anti-stalking laws are there, but they only work if the female victims actually choose to exercise their rights to file charges. Far too often, they still dont understand the gravity of the situation.

I have to say, this is one of the dangers of over-relying on the police. Granted, I'll concede that they certainly ought to have done and should have done more. They can and should be held accountable for this failure. But that only goes so far. It's pretty difficult to hold any law enforcement agency accountable for much of anything, and the Supreme Court has ruled that law enforcement agency has only a GENERAL duty to prevent, deter, and investigate crime, and not any legally enforceable duty to prevent any specific crime (IOW, they can't be held liable for failing to prevent something like this). In other words, if they don't protect you, there's not a damned thing you or your survivors can do about it.

That means, as far as I'm concerned, that people have the responsibility to protect themselves as much as possible when facing such a threat. Difficult case here, given that the victim was technically a minor. Limits as to what she could have done. Probably those around her (parents, friends, somebody) ought to have stepped in to a greater extent and done something more. My guess is that probably some of them are wondering about that now.

Medical Student29, did YOU read the article? No where did I read that the victim refused to go to court and press charges. In fact it looks like she did all she could reaching out to the police seeing as they are the ones you need to charge someone with a crime. The fact that you would say that she is at fault for her own death here is as sensational and anti-woman as the newspaper headlines. No wonder the state of violence is the way it is with people like you still blaming the victim. No one is to blame but the boyfriend who did this horrible act. And Tommythegun, yes we can expect the police to protect us from murder, it's what we pay them for. Maybe this would not hold up in the supreme court today, but for all practical purposes, we should be able to hold police accountable for what they do and don't do. What would people say if firemen just stopped responding to fires because they just felt like it. It's obvious to me that this was dismissed my the sexist police department as a "hysterical woman" I actually tried to press charges on a co-worker once who has been harassing me, he held me down and started kissing me one day after work against my will. I called police and they basically took my report but did nothing about it and a myriad of calls from me afterward did nothing in getting them to act. I was all ready and willing to press charges. But what more could I do since I couldn't afford a lawyer and they weren't going to assign me one. I'm just not that savvy with the legal system to figure out how to make a lazy police force act. So from personal experience I know that the police will sometimes ignore complaints like these, which is wrong. I think a group of women need to get together and take on the police departments in this respect, I bet there's a lot of women who are dismissed as "hysterical". In my opinion, there's no excuse for the police not following through. In most cases the police department would not be fulfilling their obligations to the county which is most likely outlined in some sort of contract, they usually will have standard procedure for domestic violence cases which this police department obviously didn't follow. So yes we can and should hold them accountable for failing this girl and I'm sure failing many other women.

MedicalStudent29, I read the articles and I don't see where it says that they refused to press ANY charges, just in some cases they didn't press charges from what sounds like a long history of incidents. They do say that the family declined to get a restraining order because they felt sorry for the guy, but there were two cases of battery pending in the courts. I'm not saying that a restraining order wouldn't have been a good idea, but as already mentioned, a pyscho who is deterimed to kill others and then himself isn't really going to be stopped by an order of protection.

Medical Student29, that's absolutely NO excuse to threaten to arrest the girl for calling 911. We don't know if they could have done anything, but we do know that the poor girl thought she had no one to turn to for help.

It's also not unheard of for police to minimize this kind of abuse and talk people out of pressing charges or at the very least, not encourage it.

Police need to inform families in these situations that violence escalates and that it's not acceptable or normal. I'm not willing to give the police in this department the benefit of the doubt that they did everything they could to help her.

Oh my God, how utterly tragic and horrifying. My heart also goes out to her parents, friends and relatives.

I'm failing to recognize how 9 accounts of physical abuse and harassment is "normal" break-up behavior. What is normal about assault in a relationship? Oh yeah, that's right, NOTHING!

My ex was obsessive too. Once after we got into a fight, he called me 290 times (no joke), and finally when I broke up with him he threatened to fly out to where I live and sit on my front porch until I would get back together with him. I changed my phone number so that he wouldn't call me so much, but he still had my e-mail address and so he sent a text message to my e-mail account saying, "She died." His mom has been terminally ill for years, and so I thought his mom had died, but I called him (with *67 to block my number, of course) and he said his co-worker died in a car accident. My mom thought it was fishy that someone he was close to just happened to die a day after we broke up, so she called the place where he works and the person who had supposedly died answered the phone, and told my mom that no, she nor anyone else who worked in the store had died recently (and it's a small store, about 10 employees, so any death would have not gone unnoticed). My mom did call the cops to warn them about him once before, a couple of years ago, and if my memory serves me correctly, they actually went to his house and told him to knock off his creepy stalker behavior.

The cops came out to my ex's house just for harassment. Why did the cops do NOTHING in her case when there had been reported assault in the relationship? Makes me sick.

I forgot one thing, Re: tommygun said: "those around her (parents, friends, somebody) ought to have stepped in to a greater extent and done something more"
and BWrites said: "They could have at least tried."

First of all the family and this girl DID TRY. And even if they didn't call the police it still is wrong that this guy murdered her. So, stop making excuses for the murderer. Isn't it obvious from reading this article that the mother and daughter did everything they could think of and didn't know what else more to do? Tommy the fact that you would say "the family should have done more" and BWriter that they should have "tried harder" is exactly the sort of messages we need to eliminate. It's the same type of sentiment that surrounds rape cases (the girl should have done this or shouldn't have done that). And it's pervasive in instances where the victim is female (you almost never see this extent of blaming for male victims) It's the murderer's fault, and no one else's. Stop blaming the victim and making excuses for murderers! It's sick, sick, sick, sick!!! (and wrong)

Meeneecat,

There were links to several different articles on this subject. Perhaps you didn't read the article that stated this:

"Records at the DeLand Police Department show the relationship between Natasha Hall and Clay Kufner had been violent.

Deputy Police Chief Randy Henderson said police had completed affidavits to charge Kufner with simple battery after two previous incidents, but the Halls had declined to pursue either case."

So it looks like the Halls did not want to pursue charges against this guy, for whatever reason.

I agree that the cops handled the situation poorly and should not have characterized the relationship as "normal" or threatened to arrest the girl for calling 911

However, if the victim refuses to press charges, there's only so much they can do.

I mean seriously what do you expect them to do? Lock him up when the victim refuses to press charges and throw away the key? Sorry, the constitution specifically prohibits that kind of action.

The police could have arrested the guy for previous violent incidents, but they can only hold him for a couple of days if the victim refuses to press charges. Then they are obligated BY LAW to release him.

Of course the fault is that of the killer's, but its clear that teh family/victim here did not use law enforcement protection to the extent that they should have. Would it have prevented her death? Who knows.

I can understand the girl's actions somewhat. She's young and doesnt know really how to handle this kind of violent/abusive relationship. But the mom/parents have no excuse. They are adults, and they were blind if they couldnt see that their daughter was in imminent danger of being assaulted or killed. The police dont have the luxury of acting just based on "imminent danger," they have to wait for an actual incident to occur; but thats not true of hte parents they do have other options that the police dont have.

If it was my daughter, I'm doing the following:

1) Pressing charges after every single occurrence

2) Getting a restraining order

3) Moving her out of state to an undisclosed location.

As a few have noted above, making charges and calling police demonstrates that you are committed to keeping yourself or your daughter safe. And at times, so does refusing to press charges, or trying to talk to or help the abuser, as crazy as that may seem.

My sister just got a restraining order last week against her ex-husband because he threatened to kill her and showed her a gun. He lied in court about the incident, and my sister almost didn't get the protection as a result. I had to convince my family that a restraining order was necessary, that it wasn't just going to "set him off," because he is crazy and anything can set him off. We have been dealing with his improperly diagnosed, periodically medicated psychotic ass for 3 years as he avoided punishment for a felony, got kicked out of a treatment center for damaging staff property, mistreated my sister, etc. And I am so glad that this time they've broken up for good.

I would have liked her to have a restraining order 3 years ago. But I can also see how tactically managing the situation, as my sister tried to do when she was with him, can also be seen as a strategy for potentially violent, certainly insane abusers. Sometimes these people seem deserving of pity for the amount of times the fuck up their lives, and how they always seem like they're about to get their lives together, and wouldn't that be better and safer for everyone, and they only need your help to get that done. So I think it's reasonable of Natasha Hall's mother to have tried to talk to the boy and help him out. But it also makes me much much happier about the restraining order.

I mean seriously what do you expect them to do?

Not threaten the girl with arrest for calling 911 would have been a good start. Keep responding to her calls and impress on the family how they've seen these situations and they usually escalate. "Scare" the family with statistics, not threats. And that's off the top of my head.

As a few have noted above, making charges and calling police demonstrates that you are committed to keeping yourself or your daughter safe.

Why exactly is this something people should have to prove?

Cherry62, I was responding to a person who seemed to be placing blame on the victim for not doing X, Y, and Z. The point I was trying to make it that it doesn't matter what she did or didn't do because the fault is not hers but the murderer. So whether she did or did not want to press charges is mute. The only person responsible for her death is the boyfriend. Keep in mind also, considering she has been in a very violent situation, it could be possible that the boy threatened her if she were to press charges. So, it's easy for a person to say 'Oh she should have pressed charges before it got to this point' But the reality of women in these relationships does not make that statement easy to accomplish. She could have been afraid for her life, and that if she did press charges he could have come after her. The police should have understood this because it's very common for women in violent relationships to be afraid to press charges or have their boyfriend arrested. VERY common. I hope you understand the realities of abusive relationships because it would have definitely played a part in why she didn't want to press charges in the past. So yes, I think this girl and her family did everything they could have done given the situation, but still this is beside the point because it was the murderer who did this and with him lies the blame, it is in no way her fault. So, I don't know why some people here are considering what this girl did or didn't do because it doesn't matter, the murder was still wrong and the police should have investigated. It doesn't matter if she did or didn't press charges in the past, it doesn't matter one iota, because the fault lies with the murderer. I don't know how many times I should reiterate this statement: PLEASE, CAN WE STOP BLAMING THE VICTIM.

Regardless of "how hard" the girl and her family tried to fix the situation, the fact is that the police response was totally inappropriate. It is completely unprofessional for an officer to threaten someone with arrest if they call 911. Appallingly, this sort of thing happens all the time in cases of domestic violence. I worked in a domestic violence shelter, and it was common for women to tell us that when they called the cops, the cops would show up and speak with the perpetrator, and the perp would tell the cops (who are mostly men): "All I did was show up to see the kids and she flew off the handle, this always happens, I can never tell what mood she's going to be in..." etc. And the cops, operating on the "good ol' boy" system, would tell the woman to quite calling them every time she got into a fight "with her man". This is outrageous. The police in this country need to be better trained concerning domestic violence and should be held accountable for their negligence.

First things first:

It does not matter if the victim does nothing to protect herself it does not make it HER FAULT if someone kills her.

As far as the restraining order goes: most women who are in domestic violence situations are reluctant to get one for many reasons. Some feel that they do no good since they have had them before and the man has still harassed or hurt them. Unless their is proof that they broke the restraining order the police cannot enforce it.
Also, many still, hope the man can change and do not want to damage him by putting something like this on record. Others just want to believe it will all go away and pursuing legal methods is too stressful at teh time.

He had been arrested for assault and if he posts bail there is nothing they can do to keep him in jail. It is the judge's decsion as to how much or whether he posts bail. Often times certain felonies have certain bail and hold times set.

I agree that the police should not have told her to stop calling and the threat to arrest her was absolutely unforgivable. Unfortunately there is a tendency for police to get frustrated with victims or even just annoyed, some of it could have been due to their reluctance to get a restraining order, as, in the police's mind, if they had that and then obtainined proof through a phone call that he contacted her they would have been able to arrest him.

This is a horrible situation all around and although the police do have some blame, as they should not have been so harsh,t here is a good chance this might not have been stopped in time

However, if the victim refuses to press charges, there's only so much they can do.

Which apparently, in this case, included telling the victim "if you call us again, we'll arrest you."

There are many reasons why one might refuse to press charges. Also: It doesn't say that they *never* pressed charges- at least the articles I've seen. It says that they didn't always press charges. From the articles: "the family also refused to press charges against the boy in some cases". In some cases- particularly in cases where the victim and perpetrator are pretty young, the police have been known to discourage pressing charges. Or it could have been that they were told it wouldn't do any good and would make things worse. Or it could have been the early events, and they were hoping that the situation would take care of itself- it can't be easy to press charges against someone that you thought you were in love with before.

I mean seriously what do you expect them to do? Lock him up when the victim refuses to press charges and throw away the key? Sorry, the constitution specifically prohibits that kind of action.

I don't see anyone suggesting that kind of response. What I expect is the police to do their effing job, and not to tell the victims of violent crimes "If you call us again, we're going to arrest you."

If it was my daughter, I'm doing the following:

1) Pressing charges after every single occurrence

2) Getting a restraining order

3) Moving her out of state to an undisclosed location.

1. You can't always press charges if the actual victim won't. Even if you're the parents.

2. Restraining orders are really hard to get, especially for young people. Judges tend to see these sorts of things as par for the course in young relationships, and are loathe to stick what they see as "kids" with that kind of thing.

3. It must be nice to have the financial security required to completely uproot your life on a moments notice- to leave behind family, friends, and employment, suck up the moving costs that, for a family, quickly launch into the thousands of dollars. "Why didn't they just move" isn't really a viable solution for most people- moving is time intensive, expensive, and, quite frankly, unfair to the victims of a crime. You were the victim of a crime, now you should pack up and leave your life behind? Doesn't really seem fair to me.

this posting got 441 votes (so far) at reddit.com: "The girl who police asked to stop calling before her murder - apparently the police were in the right this time", while a posting with the original story faulting the police got only 161 votes. if you are a member of reddit, please help support women-positive stories and give a piece of your mind to to the anti-women postings.

Maybe MedicalStudent29 should join the DeLand Police Department!

This is just disgusting. How many victims are going to be blamed for their own assaults and deaths? I would say why not call the police and get arrested just to be away from the ex, but then you might get violently strip searched and locked up in a cold cell, naked, for six hours. So what the hell are we supposed to do?

roymacIII, your response to #3 is a good point. I think it's especially dangerous to suggest moving a victim of abuse away from her support system.

It's a little different for minors, perhaps, but an abuser and stalker will often find ways to follow his victim and being isolated from a familiar community isn't going to make things any better.

OK so lets assume for a moment that the police had acted appropriately and heeded her 911 calls without threatening her.

Exactly WHAT was that going to accomplish that makes you think this girl would still be alive today?

Now, lets contrast that scenario with the options that the girl and her parents could have taken, with a restraining order and pressing charges on the prior incidents.

I submit to you that restraining orders and pressing charges are MUCH MORE LIKELY to stop the violence than the police responding more appropriately to her 911 calls and not downplaying the violent nature of this abusive relationship.

Like I said before, the police do share some blame here and should have treated the situation differently. But even if they had, chances are that girl would still be dead today, so I prefer to focus more on measures that could have actually PREVENTED her death, and its clear from that perspective that the girl and her family have more power to stop it than the police did in this case.

meeneecat, when I said "They could have at least tried," I was talking about the police, in response to Marileec's comment. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Med Student, please see this post.

thx

It's a little different for minors, perhaps, but an abuser and stalker will often find ways to follow his victim and being isolated from a familiar community isn't going to make things any better.

And an abuser/stalker will also not heed a restraining order either, therefore all restraining orders are worthless and we should just eliminate the entire concept.

I bet you money that a victim is less likely to die from a violent abuser if she moves away rather than stay in the same house where he can come find her day or night, particularly on a whim after he's lit up from alcohol or drugs.

BTW I'm not suggesting she be isolated. Obviously we'd move the family with her.

Ahhh, I take back my comments about your comment, BWrites, thanks for clarifying, my bad. :)

I also have to wonder if there wasn't some racism involved in this. Do you think if she had been a white woman the police would have taken her more seriously? There is the stereotype that Latinos and other minorities have "stormy" relationships and that it is just part of their culture (Which is of course FALSE).

1. You can't always press charges if the actual victim won't. Even if you're the parents.

Fair enough. The victim was an adult by law I believe so she has to take that responsibility as well. But from reading the articles I get the distinct impression that her family didnt exactly go out of their way to try and encourage her to file the restraining order. Hell the parents were giving the asshole food right up until he murdered her!

2. Restraining orders are really hard to get, especially for young people. Judges tend to see these sorts of things as par for the course in young relationships, and are loathe to stick what they see as "kids" with that kind of thing.

I'm pretty sure that you can get a restraining order on someone who grabbed you by the hair and slammed you to the pavement, as well as multiple threats to kill you and burn down your house. Now if you are talking about just verbal fights then yes I would agree with you.

3. It must be nice to have the financial security required to completely uproot your life on a moments notice- to leave behind family, friends, and employment, suck up the moving costs that, for a family, quickly launch into the thousands of dollars. "Why didn't they just move" isn't really a viable solution for most people- moving is time intensive, expensive, and, quite frankly, unfair to the victims of a crime. You were the victim of a crime, now you should pack up and leave your life behind? Doesn't really seem fair to me.

You're right its absolutely NOT fair that someone has to move away to avoid a violent abusing asshole. But whats fair and whats PRUDENT are entirely different matters. When its obvious that someone is going to be seeking to kill you every day for the rest of their life until they are either 1) incarcerated; or 2) dead then I think you have to do whatever it takes to ensure safety.

MedicalStudent29:

Also, I recommend reading this.  It's geared more towards adult women than towards teens, but it's still largely applicable.

What I'd prefer to know isn't what she should have done better in order to earn our compassion.  I want to know why the police department fucked up like that, and I want to know what the hell is wrong with the world that men like her ex-boyfriend exist and are excused.

That, to me, is way more interesting than what she should have done better, MS29.  Focus on that more.

Just a few short things here...

A lot of people here are asking, "what could the cops arrest her for if she did call them again?" Well, none of the articles say for sure, but if the girl (not blaming her in any way) ever gave a statement to police (which I assume she did) and then recanted it, she could technically have been charged with filing a false police report.Declining to press charges does not necessarily mean that she ever recanted a statement, but it may be a possible reason why she was threatened with arrest. Recantations are (sadly) very common in domestic abuse cases, and most women have no clue that by making one, they open themselves up to possible criminal prosecution.

In my experience in working with the police (in a law clinic), people who are known for recnating statements or multiple instances of not pressing charges are usually not taken as seriously. Cops want to make arrests and take people to jail, which doesn't happen in most DV cases.

Restraining orders are horrible for DV cases. This is mostly because no action can be taken at all until the RO is violated (that is, the women is harrassed or assaulted).

I agree with everyone who thinks that this situation is horrible and that this should have been prevented. However, police departments are operating under thousands of rules and reulations, and one small slip, and an abuser and his lawyer will be knocking on the door with papers. If an abuser is arrested and later released due to failure to press charges, they may have grounds for a wrongful arrest (not always, but a lot try). I think this is a fine line that's being discussed here, and it needs to be carefully.

I'm not saying moving is always a bad thing to do. The point is that it's arrogant and not helpful to make suggestions for what you should do and suggest that makes you so much better at dealing with the situation that the family of the victim. The situation is different for everyone.

And yes, there are times when a restraining order does more harm than good, too, so it shouldn't be suggested that it's always the best thing to do.

There are many reasons why one might refuse to press charges.

There are very few RATIONAL reasons for not pursuing one when its clear that someone wants to injure or kill you. Rememeber we're not talking about one or two verbal spats we are talking about many different violent incidents which made it clear he was going to kill her or die trying. In that context, there are no good reasons for not pursuing a restraining order.

particularly in cases where the victim and perpetrator are pretty young, the police have been known to discourage pressing charges.

Well if thats the case, then its totally inappropriate. At any rate, if I'm in that situation I take it upon myself to ignore what dumbass police officers say and exercise my full rights to protect myself by whatever means necessary.

Or it could have been the early events, and they were hoping that the situation would take care of itself- it can't be easy to press charges against someone that you thought you were in love with before.

I dont understand this logic. If your SO threatened to kill you and burn down your house thats bad enough. But when it actually crosses over to your SO pulling your hair and slamming you to the pavement as well as god knows what else, do you REALLY think you'd have a hard time breaking away from him and pressing charges? Because I wouldnt and I dont understand anybody else who would feel that way either.

Lets be clear. With this asshole, it was a matter of time before he killed her. These guys dont get better on their own, they dont forget, and they dont give up, EVER. There's only 2 things stopping guys like this and its either death or incarceration. So it baffles me when I hear women (or police or anybody else for that matter) give the tired old line of "I can make him better" or "he'll get over this" or "he will move on eventually." Exactly WHAT in the history of these violent predators suggests that they will just "grow out of it?"

I'm genuinely curious about this. Can anybody cite a single case of a progressivley violent male abuser just getting better on his own with no prison time?

this absolutely is NOT normal relationship behavior in any age group. i don't know what kind of homes those police officers grew up in, but mine did not include that kind of violence.
it is not okay that we live in a world where people are afraid or perhaps even ashamed to go after their abusers, court wise.

we need to create a world where our sisters AND brothers are not afraid to tell someone they are being harmed by a supposed "loved" one.

the articles and media coverage of these types of situations teach our children to act like this or being treated this way is okay. because violence and sells everywhere even the news. we need to stop that. we are a jaded society when it comes to violence. mostly women and minorities.

what does that say about us as a country? that we would rather show hateful things on our news channels than lovely things.

MedicalStudent29, you are stuck somewhere between stages 1 and 2.

Wow, i was typing fast and my first paragraph my last post is really screwy.

What I was trying to say: Claiming that you know how to deal with the situation better than the family is arrogant and unhelpful.

Also, MS, we're talking about police misconduct, that's the point of the post. It's entirely possible that the girl WOULDN'T be dead if the police hadn't threatened her with arrest.

Furthermore, if they said that in the presense of the abuser it might have enabled him to do what he did.

There was almost a month between the time she was threatened with arrest and the time she was killed. A month of "dealing with it herself," according to her mother. We don't know if police involvement during that month would help or not, but you can't just dismiss it.

Can someone point me to confirmation from anyone but the mom and stepdad (the people who admit they convinced her not to press charges because they did not want to ruin the boy's life) say the police refused to help?

MS29, I agree with you in some respects, that I don't think short of prison time, abusers will see the light and stop abusing. Abusing anyone (female, male, or child) in indicative of a larger problem with control, jealousy, and other issues that I don't think can "heal" or be fixed.

That said, I don't quite agree that that are no if few reasons not to press charges. Sometimes, doing so will inflame a lot more problems. I have known a woman who pressed charges, got her abuser jailed for 3 years. Sounds good, right? Well his family (which was quite larger, by the way) believed him all the way and started harrasing her and making her life a living hell. And so many of them were involved that arresting all of them would have been inpossible. So i do believe that sometimes, pressing charges opens up a whole new abuse can of worms (not all of the time) but I think a woman thinks of these things.

Secondly, i understand why one would question whether all the appropriate steps to protect this girl were taken. Well, my question is, what did they have to do? Maybe move her out of state, yes, but that takes time, and money, and finfing a new school possibly a new job, a new home, a lot of things. Do you want her to have a weapon? That wouldn't same much sense either (and I say this as a gun owner and 2nd amendment sister). She was 17, she couldn't legally own a weapon. (Plus, she most likely had no weapons training and the most likely scenario would have been him taking the weapon from her and using it on her). Restraining orders, as stated before, don't really work as we imagine they do. So, again, what do people expect DV wictims to do? I don;t know.

"But when it actually crosses over to your SO pulling your hair and slamming you to the pavement as well as god knows what else, do you REALLY think you'd have a hard time breaking away from him and pressing charges? Because I wouldnt and I dont understand anybody else who would feel that way either."

ms29, have you been the victim of physical and/or severe verbal abuse? if so, i applaud your courage to enlist help. however, this is not the way a lot of people deal with abuse. you may not understand why a victim would "choose" to remain with their assailant and "not break away" from them. but that would speak to being a little closed-minded.

I saw Eve Ensler Live last night. It was so moving.

When will feministing start calling these incidents exactly what they are? Instances of systemically tolerated femicide in our nation.

ms29 - if a complaining victim were a constitutional requirement for criminal conviction, murderers would never go to jail. Proof of a crime beyond reasonable doubt is the requirement, in any form you can get it. If this county actually requires a complaining victim even when other forms of evidence is available, well that's something they might want to reconsider.

I mean seriously what do you expect them to do? Lock him up when the victim refuses to press charges and throw away the key? Sorry, the constitution specifically prohibits that kind of action.

Yes, I do. The DA can press charges, even if the victim refuses. It happens everyday, it comes in especially handy when the victim is too scared or traumatized to press charges.

do you REALLY think you'd have a hard time breaking away from him and pressing charges? Because I wouldnt and I dont understand anybody else who would feel that way either.
MedicalStudent29, you need to stop. You have obviously have no idea what it's like to be the victim of violence. Let me make this clear:
THE VICTIM IS NOT TO BLAME. EVER.
Until people like you are STOP the VICTIM BLAMING, the violence will continue. You give the abusers a pass when you say shit like that. Disgusting!

Go read about the victims of domestic violence. Get fucking educated and then comment. I find it disturbing that you are going into healthcare.

Okay, maybe this has already been mentioned, but there was a reason given in one of the articles for why the family didn't press charges. This is from one of the articles:

Deputy Police Chief Randy Henderson said police had completed affidavits to charge Kufner with simple battery after two previous incidents, but the Halls had declined to pursue either case.
Cheri Hall said Clay had planned to go into the Air Force; she understood he passed the written test and a physical, and would have left for basic training in a couple of weeks.
Natasha's mother said she thought him going into the service was a better way to resolve the problem.

I guess I understand the thinking there. They may have felt that if they filed charges, it would prevent him from leaving for basic training, and instead put him in jail for not very long, at which point he'd be released and they'd be right back where they started, except he'd be even more pissed off. I don't know.

I mean seriously what do you expect them to do? Lock him up when the victim refuses to press charges and throw away the key? Sorry, the constitution specifically prohibits that kind of action.

Yes, I do. The DA can press charges, even if the victim refuses. It happens everyday, it comes in especially handy when the victim is too scared or traumatized to press charges.

do you REALLY think you'd have a hard time breaking away from him and pressing charges? Because I wouldnt and I dont understand anybody else who would feel that way either.
MedicalStudent29, you need to stop. You have obviously have no idea what it's like to be the victim of violence. Let me make this clear:
THE VICTIM IS NOT TO BLAME. EVER.
Until people like you are STOP the VICTIM BLAMING, the violence will continue. You give the abusers a pass when you say shit like that. Disgusting!

Go read about the victims of domestic violence. Get fucking educated and then comment. I find it disturbing that you are going into healthcare.

Medical Student, the fact is that women and girls who are being abused find it very hard to break away from their abusers emotionally. Whether or not you understand it is moot--that's how it is. But as you are going into health care and doctors are being trained more and more often to screen their patients for domestic violence, it would probably be a good idea for you learn more about how abusers psychologically and emotionally manipulate their victims and how our misogynist culture assists them. Doing so will enhance your ability to treat your patients and allow you to catch such patterns and, it is to be hoped, help break them.

I'm going to insert myself here and ask that the victim-blaming stop immediately. I'm happy to ban if that doesn't happen immediately.

ShelbyWoo, I totally understand where you're coming from with wanting to see DAs charge more abusers, even without complaining witnesses. However, it is still really hard to do so.

Most DV cases occur in the home or in other private settings, where there are no witnesses (or if there are, they are usually children.) When this happens, the case is literally reduced to a he-said she -said in court, and the case is much harder to try.

Defense attornys will leap all over it if there is no complaining victim. They will say that it is a case of a (buzzword) rogue prosecutor. Remember, we're living in post-Mike Nifong America, where trust of prosecutors is at an all-time low. Prosecutors are leery to take questionable cases, and unfortunately, DV cases oftentimes fall under that umbrella.

While I totally agree with you that DV prosecutions should be made easy and that MS29 may not be seeing the full picture, DV is almost impossible to prosecute without the victim's cooperation (and most often) her Testimony. We still live in a world where the only way to get anything done is to press charges.

I can clearly remember, just to make my point, a MLB baseball player, i believe in 2006, was arrested on a PUBLIC street in Boston for slapping and hitting his wife in public in daylight. He was charged, until the wife asked the judge to drop the charges, and the judge complied. A cooperating victim is still essential.

ShelbyWoo, I totally understand where you're coming from with wanting to see DAs charge more abusers, even without complaining witnesses. However, it is still really hard to do so.
We still live in a world where the only way to get anything done is to press charges.

Agreed. Although, IMO, some of that goes back to the whole victim blaming (specifically, blaming female victims which is generally coupled with a healthy dose of "lying bitch") mentality. Whether or not that is true in our justice system (though, how can it not be when that idea that it was "her own fault" or "she's lying" is so firmly entrenched in our culture), I don't know.

All I know is, if the victim blaming doesn't stop in our society, then victims (most likely women) will be less and less likely to seek and receive justice. And violent abusers (most likely men) will get away with more and more abuse, or worse, murder.

Just an FYI: The deadliest time for dv victims is after the restraining order is served.

This poor poor girl AND her parents. They probably didn't have a clue what they were dealing with.

As for the cops? Seriously, a very large lawsuit that will require dv counseling for every single cop.

You're right its absolutely NOT fair that someone has to move away to avoid a violent abusing asshole. But whats fair and whats PRUDENT are entirely different matters. When its obvious that someone is going to be seeking to kill you every day for the rest of their life until they are either 1) incarcerated; or 2) dead then I think you have to do whatever it takes to ensure safety.

And I suspect that, if her and her family honestly thought that he would kill her, they might have done things differently. That's the curse of hindsight.

Of course, that assumes that they had the ability to simply move away. Which, as I pointed out, the vast majority of us do not.

There are very few RATIONAL reasons for not pursuing one when its clear that someone wants to injure or kill you.

And if we were all perfectly rational beings, that'd be great. But we're not. We are, in fact, incredibly emotional and irrational beings at times. So, no, I'm not going to moralize and admonish a dead woman and her family for not realizing how big of a threat this guy was, or for not taking more "rational" actions against him.

I dont understand this logic. If your SO threatened to kill you and burn down your house thats bad enough. But when it actually crosses over to your SO pulling your hair and slamming you to the pavement as well as god knows what else, do you REALLY think you'd have a hard time breaking away from him and pressing charges?

How do you know she didn't, at that point? The articles don't tell us which incidents she pressed charges on and which she didn't. Nor does it say she never pressed charges- it says that she didn't press charges in every instance. For all I know, she didn't press charges the first time something happened, but tried in every other case.

Exactly WHAT in the history of these violent predators suggests that they will just "grow out of it?"

And, again, if we were all perfectly rational beings, that'd be a great argument.

Fair enough. The victim was an adult by law I believe so she has to take that responsibility as well. But from reading the articles I get the distinct impression that her family didnt exactly go out of their way to try and encourage her to file the restraining order. Hell the parents were giving the asshole food right up until he murdered her!

Please ban Medical Student 29. I am unaware that a 17-year-old murder victim is ever an adult by law in the U.S. Ugh. Fucking MRA trolls. Jesus.

Yes, I do. The DA can press charges, even if the victim refuses. It happens everyday, it comes in especially handy when the victim is too scared or traumatized to press charges.

Unless burden of evidence rules are changed, this strategy has about a 1% chance of actually working.

No cooperating victim = no jail.

How do you propose the police handle this case differently OTHER than listening to her complaints and not threatening her about the 911 calls?

My whole point is that even if the police had done those things, she'd still be dead.

Is it irresponsible on their part? Absolutely, but blaming the police for this murder is out of line.

My whole point is that even if the police had done those things, she'd still be dead.

Is it irresponsible on their part? Absolutely, but blaming the police for this murder is out of line.

Sweet. Blaming the po-po is off limits, but blaming the murder victim and her family is apparently a-okay. Please go a way for a while, and read some of the links others posted for your reference.

"My whole point is that even if the police had done those things, she'd still be dead."

You don't know that.

In fact, the only way we'd know that is if THE POLICE HAD DONE THEIR JOB.

Furthermore, this post is about the attitude of the police often faced by victims, and this case is a prime example of it. There is NO excuse for cops not taking victims seriously, especially in DV cases that often escalate to murder, when there are pending cases against the perpetrator, all of which were true in this case. Their (lack of) response to the victim when she complained of being threatened, 3 weeks before her murder, caused the victim to NOT NOTIFY THE POLICE when he did get violent. She no longer trusted them, and therefore no longer sought their help. What happened in those 3 weeks? We don't know. But my guess is there was ample opportunity for the police to arrest him and tell him to knock it f- off if she wasn't too scared of being arrested herself if she called. By making her afraid of the police, they DID precipitate her death, because she was too afraid to ask them to protect her when he did get violent.

I hate this bullshit concept that police are unwilling to/"cannot" do anything, until something happens. The duty "to protect and to serve" has been upheld in courts nationwide over the decades to refer to the public in general, not any particular individual (see Dial 911 and Die, by attorney Richard W. Stevens). Law enforcement officers (police, sheriff's deputies, etc.) have actually stood by on the scene while people are killed, much less ignored victim's telephoned pleas for help. Police usually arrive on the scene to investigate crimes, not for protection. People able to make the choice (not living with an abuser, severely mentally ill person, or inquisitive children) may consider personal firearms for self defense, along with professional training and the mindset to use them properly.

do you REALLY think you'd have a hard time breaking away from him and pressing charges? Because I wouldnt and I dont understand anybody else who would feel that way either.

I know other people have addressed this, but this view is so prevalent, I'd like to say it again. Whereever you are, whatever you're doing, I'm willing to bet you've never been a victim of domestic violence. This is the very logical reason why you don't understand the situation - you haven't experienced it, and you clearly haven't listened to people who have. Because this is just a fact of life (and this is important! so listen) - if a whole group of people who are in a similar situation that you have no experience with all respond the same way, the conclusion is not that they are functionally retarded. The conclusion is that their response is rational in their unique situation (which, remember, you don't understand). Again, this applies to all areas of life that you don't have experience in - other cultures, races, or religions will do things that you don't understand and that, therefore, may not seem rational to you. This does not mean that it is not rational to them, when they are experiencing different pressures in an entirely different situation that you haven't experienced. The only way to remedy this gap in information is to assume that every person is the expert on their own experiences. That's just the way it is.

I seriously need to figure out how to say this in smaller words, because this is clearly rocket-science-level understanding of interpersonal relationships.

Well at the end of the day I do think there should be stronger anti-stalking laws. Clearly what we have now is ineffective.

First off, we need to get rid of the ridiculous privacy rules that prevent you from recording phone conversations. Phone companies should be required to record phone conversations for suspected stalking activities that can be used as evidence in court.

You threaten somebody's life on the phone = 10 year automatic jail term.

I think we also need to treat these abusers as unstable mental patients so we can bypass some of the hurdles that you have to jump thru to get people in prison.

For example, if it can be proven that you are in a romantic relationship with someone and have made threats as well as physical assaults, you automatically get involuntarily committed for 3 or 4 months.

I never will understand the reason for all the focus on where the "blame" lies. Who honestly gives a shit where the "blame" lies? Fine. I'll concede. Blame the murderer all you want and hold the victim blameless. I have no problem with that. He's probably going to go to prison for many years to come. She's still dead. As a doornail. All the blame spared her and heaped upon him will not give her another breath of life.

Feel better now? Good. Maybe we can start talking about RESPONSIBILITY, rather than blame, and address the fact that we all have the RESPONSIBILITY for our own safety and security, and those of our minor children. Not the police, not the government, not the "patriarchy", or whatever. If anyone has that magic formula whereby none of us ever need fear for our personal safety at the hands of another, and believes that you can put it into action, I say go for it! I'll sing the Notre Dame fight song for you to accomplish what millennia of philosophers, politicians, reformers and religious leaders haven't. Until then, well, as the saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And in this case, there's no cure for death.

Correction to the above. The guy's already dead. Ok. Nothing changed. Blame him all you want. Still doesn't change anything.

Tommy the Gun, we're all smart enough here to know that when you start in with your fucking' PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY horse shit, you are BLAMING THE VICTIM FOR HER OWN MURDER. Out of the woodwork they come.

Maybe we can start talking about RESPONSIBILITY, rather than blame, and address the fact that we all have the RESPONSIBILITY for our own safety and security, and those of our minor children. Not the police, not the government, not the "patriarchy", or whatever.

Well, actually, bullshit. The police do in fact, have a responsibility for my safety. That's part of their fucking job. In fact, the major reason why we form civilizations is as a means of codifying and enforcing measures to protect ourselves from outside harms. One of the primary functions of a society is for safety. So, yes, in fact, the police and the government do have some responsibility for my safety. And when the police threaten a woman with arrest for calling them when she fears for her safety, they fail their responsibility.

Until then, well, as the saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And in this case, there's no cure for death.

Wow, that's very deep. Thank you for that enlightening diatribe. Now then, do you have something to share that people haven't already heard a thousand and one times? Really. We're waiting.

Are you going to tell us how she should have left him? How she should have moved? Bought a gun? Got a restraining order (Oh, wait! That'd be relying on the police and government!)?

Because I'm pretty sure that most of us have heard those things quite enough, thanks. And, surprisingly enough, they don't always work either. We can sit back and talk about what the victim here could have done differently, but we'll never know.

You know why?

Because a man murdered her.

Wow, tommy, we all totally thought that making sure the blame was placed correctly would bring them both back from the dead AND make him realize that he shouldn't be an abusive asshole.

Nevermind the impact of society's love of victim-blaming on this girl or every other woman who is in or ever has been in or ever will be in this situation! Nevermind the fact that so many men besides this one think that hurting and killing their female partners is okay! Nevermind the fact that everyone always reinforces the inevitable emotional abuse by ignoring the realities of her situation and telling her she's stupid because she "lets" it happen! Nevermind the fact that the most dangerous times for an abused woman are when she actually stands up to her abuser by leaving him or getting a restraining order! You clearly have all the answers and if only these stupid women were as smart and perfect as you, right? You might as well be abusing a woman or two yourself, because you are perpetuating the attitude that makes shit like this so prevalent in our society.

"Do you think if she had been a white woman the police would have taken her more seriously?"

I think so. I mean, look at which missing people get the press.

"There is the stereotype that Latinos and other minorities have "stormy" relationships and that it is just part of their culture (Which is of course FALSE)."

Exactly.

"Until people like you are STOP the VICTIM BLAMING, the violence will continue. You give the abusers a pass when you say shit like that."

Right on. There's a huge difference between "she should have done X, Y, and Z" and "X, Y, and Z could help someone else avoid what happened to her."

"Cheri Hall said Clay had planned to go into the Air Force; she understood he passed the written test and a physical, and would have left for basic training in a couple of weeks.
"Natasha's mother said she thought him going into the service was a better way to resolve the problem."

Yeah, I can understand how this would look like a way to resolve the problem win the medium term.

As for the long term, I'd heard of gangsters enlisting in militaries then returning to their gangs with their sharpened attack skills after their service is over, so if a violent non-gangster enlisted...

"I don't know."

Me neither.

... if a whole group of people who are in a similar situation that you have no experience with all respond the same way, the conclusion is not that they are functionally retarded. The conclusion is that their response is rational in their unique situation (which, remember, you don't understand). - Cassie

Word. Thank you, Cassie. It's bullshit that people even ask, "why didn't she leave?" Hmm, maybe because that would make it more likely that he would kill her? Because the abuser has usually told her this point-blank?

Well at the end of the day I do think there should be stronger anti-stalking laws. Clearly what we have now is ineffective. - MS29

This is the only thing you've said so far, dude (are you a dude? sure you are,) that I agree with. Lock the fuckers up. Thinking that you own another human being and that you have the right to kill them if they disobey you, is a mental illness and needs to be treated as such. What's that I hear? Patriarchy minions protesting, "what about teh menz"?

FUCK THE MENZ.

... we all have the RESPONSIBILITY for our own safety and security, and those of our minor children. Not the police, not the government, not the "patriarchy", or whatever. - tommythegun

I know people have already decimated your "argument" here, but I must say. How about the responsibility of men not to murder women, hmm?

I agree babypop, they are all coming out of the woodwork. What the hell. I mean I guess I'm glad anti-feminists are reading feminist blogs and hopefully learning, but the comment section is getting a little..

I guess what I understand the least about this situation is the mother's chummy relationship to her daughter's murderer.

In the article it stated she was bringing food to him and she openly hoped that him getting into the military would be a good thing for him.

Apparently she continued to do this even after he was routinely beating and harrassing her daughter.

Anyways, its a tragic case. At least the asshole is dead. Its too bad hell doesnt really exist, because I like the thought of him suffering in eternal torment.

MS29, women often try to "calm the savage beast" by appeasing them with pandering, submissive behavior. Part of the reason we do this is because then when we're mistreated (or murdered) no one can say it was our fault. Oh, wait.

I agree that it's too bad hell doesn't exist. My vision of hell would be a place where no self-delusion is possible, and you would have to face, full-on, all the harm you perpetrated against innocents in your lifetime. Suffer as they did. I wouldn't want this to be a permanent state, though. Because in my uptopian hell (?) everyone would learn their lesson eventually and get out of there.

The police do in fact, have a responsibility for my safety.

They have a shared responsibility for your safety, not sole responsibility.

From their standpoint, by repeatedly calling them for these incidents, then refusing to cooperate with the system that would actually hold the abuser accountable and lock him up and stop the incidents, this young woman and her family were getting to a point of abusing police resources. Whatever reasoning they had for not wanting him jailed (to send him off to the military, an institution that teaches how to use firearms, how to engage in hand to hand combat and tends to enhance aggressive tendencies?!?!) what it came down to was that they were asking for police intervention in discrete acts, but not police protection overall. That was a dreadful, terrible mistake.

Did the police have a duty to act? Yes. Should there have been a threat to jail the victim? Hell no. Should there be an awesome lawsuit over that threat and the implied abrogation of duty inherent strictly in it? Definitely.

But did the family have resources available to them that they willfully rejected, thinking that they knew better than the authorities who deal with these things on a regular basis? Yes they did, and I'm terribly sorry that they did, because it may have well changed the outcome, notwithstanding the outrageous conduct of the police.

And that absolutely will have an impact on how this cast is viewed, by the general public as well as a jury -- and should serve as a cautionary tale for others in the circumstance. When you have the opportunity to put your stalker/abuser in jail, you take it> When someone hurts and threatens you, you are not acting in your self-interests when you start worrying about "ruining his life" or any other aspect of his future, and if anybody tells you otherwise, ignore them.

Medical Student, you clearly have little understanding of the dynamics of domestic violence. Both the girl and her parents were likely hoping for the best -- that this guy would back off once he joined the military, and things wouldn't get nasty. That kind of denial is very common, as is the guilt, the helplessness, the major mindfuck that abused women (and their families, who often feel equally helpless) go through. After all, who wants to think that the person they were in love with six months previously has it in them to shoot them?
My best friend years ago had a bf like this guy. She started dating him at 16, they broke up six months later, he started abusing and stalking her. She knew calling the police was useless (this was in Mexico City), so she asked her new boyfriend to get together some buddies to beat the ex up so he would leave her alone. The beating went too far, and the ex was killed. My friend got the blame. As of this year, she has been in jail 16 years. Only six more to go. At least he didn't kill her, right?

I'm eagerly awaiting the NRA nuts who will pounce that if only 17-year-olds were allowed to buy guns, this murder victim could have defended herself.

I'm genuinely curious about this. Can anybody cite a single case of a progressivley violent male abuser just getting better on his own with no prison time?

It's always about TEH MENZ as far as DV enablers are concerned, isn't it?

To address the comments about personal responsibilty and guns...

BabyPop, don't label all gun owners and NRA members the same way. I am NRA, I am a 2nd Amendment Sister (a group that says it is ok for women to own guns if they choose to) and I do not think this girl owning a gun would have helped her in any way. I do not think that guns in any way would have prevented this girl's death. Mostly, because it was a from-behind attack that caught her by surprise. No gun in the world will help in that situation.

I own 3 guns. I carry one on my person at all times. I carry it because I guess I am jaded, due to the fact that I am the child of 2 detectives, and I tend to think that the world is not a nice place. And yes, before anyone thinks to ask, I have been the target of an attempted assault, and the gun had on me was what stopped it. That said...

I do not believe guns are helpful in the hands of people who have any sort of objection to them or have any sort of misgiving about taking a life. I have reconciled the fact that someday, I may have to take a life. As long as that life is that of my potential rapist or killer, I don't have objections to it. I do not think that giving DV victims weapons (of any kind) is the answer, because most people are not skilled with weapons, and many would face the situation of being disarmed and having it used ON them.

I agree in part with the idea that we, at least partially, responsible for our own safety. I think that is partly a numbers game. For example, I live in Philadelphia, which has, I believe, 1.5 million people and a couple thousand (maybe ten or more) police. The chances of a police officer being within sight when a crime is committed against me are slim. Therefore, I feel like I need to empower myself for my own defense. Police are primarly used for both detterance of crime (like increasing numbers in bad areas) and investigation and apprehension after the crime. Few crimes are actually stopped by police. Those that are stopped, are more often stopped by civilians. So yes, I do think, in a way, a person can empower themselves as to lessen (not eliminate) their chances of being a victim.

That said...

I do not see how this girl could have any responsibilty for her death. None. If she declined to press charges or recanted any statements, it seems to be under the influence of her parents. She was under 18. That means that ultimately, all legal decisions for her were being made by her parents. If mistakes were made (and they were) they were made by the parents. However, if recantations were made or charges dropped, the name that appeared was this girl's, not her parents. If the police believed she was filing false reports, they would inform her about possible arrest. I think her death is the greatest tragedy, and I do see how the police did not fulfill their role. But I think her parents had a role too - namely, that they refused to see what this boy really was, and sadly, it was their daughter who paid for it.

(sorry for the rant)

This is sick! But I'm not suprised. As a victem to stalking and hurassment I had to deal with the police, court, even medical personal who didn't believe that my situation was serious until they sliped and threatened my life in open court in front of the Judge.

Sadly, I can top the police in this story when I called worried for my life because of threats and violence and instead of dealing with my stalker, they locked me up in the mental ward for 72 hour suicide hold.

I was released when my therapist stood up for me and explained the situation. See my stalker was a therapist. so when I explained to them who was stalking me, they assumed I was an obessed patient and a danger and risk to the therapist. My real therapist had to correct them and explain that my stalker wasnt my therapist, and it was in-deed valid that they were hurassing me and not the other way around.

I couldnt believe how much they played up that it was all my fault, me the victem. they wanted to search my house. take my journals to "search" for evidence... exexex.

I'm no stranger to violence, being a rape survivor, but I couldn't believe how badly your treated when someone is stalking you. No one believes you. Everyone wants to make it out like your over-reacting.

I really feel sorry for this girl. She didn't deserve to be treated like that. they certainly had no right to treaten to arrest her and its sick they are making it out to be no big deal even after he brakes in and kills them both.

I have lost my faith in our criminal system sence my experiance. But this is still just discustingly horrible.

Just horrible.

ms29, re: "I guess what I understand the least about this situation is the mother's chummy relationship to her daughter's murderer."
Abusers are REAL manipulative. They often turn families, neihbors, freinds, even the victim's own children against the victim in order to keep her from any kind of support group, to more easily manipulate her, and to more easily convince her that she is crazy. This abuser may have manipulated the mother into thinking he was a good guy. Happens ALL the time.

Dreama, re: "But did the family have resources available to them that they willfully rejected, thinking that they knew better than the authorities who deal with these things on a regular basis? Yes they did,"
Again, abusers are manipulative as all hell and will deny responsibility of their own vicious actions at every turn. They may have convinced the family he was a "good guy." It's amazing how this can happen so commonly in the face of brutal violence. Not to mention what many people have pointed out, when a victim leaves the abuser, gets a restraining order, calls the police, their chances of getting killed by the abuser increase significantly. Sometimes not taking every action available is a matter of basic survival, especially when there are LOADS of cases like this, where the police fail to take DV seriously and fail to protect the victim.

In other words, stop blaming the victim! You are contributing to the very same culture that does not take DV seriously and fails to protect victims. Until we can recognize that abusers are to blame, NOT VICTIMS, this kind of tragedy will continue to happen again and again like it already does.

Jetgirl, that's really tragic and I'm so sorry to hear that about your freind.

But as you are going into health care and doctors are being trained more and more often to screen their patients for domestic violence, it would probably be a good idea for you learn more about how abusers psychologically and emotionally manipulate their victims and how our misogynist culture assists them. Doing so will enhance your ability to treat your patients and allow you to catch such patterns and, it is to be hoped, help break them

I don't think doctors legally or ethically have to report intimate-partner violence if the patient is of age, but it would be smart to report it just to cover their ass. But instead of trying to get through to this person, which looks to be impossible, let's just be thankful this person is "MedicalStudent29" and not "LawStudent29."

I couldn't believe how badly your treated when someone is stalking you. No one believes you. Everyone wants to make it out like your over-reacting.

Exactly. Everybody says that you're over-reacting, right up until he beats the shit out of you or kills you...and then they ask why you didn't take stronger actions to stop him.

This is one of the saddest stories I've ever heard.
Marissa, I agree with you--people need to quite the victim-blaming and cries for 'personal responsibility' and place the blame where it ACTUALLY lies: on the murderer and on the 'public servants' who denied their duty to this member of the public.

Placing blame on the police insofar as their responsibility goes is appropriate. No, they ought not have threatened her with arrest. Even if, as it seems may have been the case, her family did not take advantage of the legal resources at their disposal, they ought not have done that. Obviously, the killer is fully to blame for his own actions.

But, again, at the end of the day, the police basically change shifts and go home. The killer is dead, so beyond pissing on his grave, I don't know what more one can do as far as he is concerned. By killing himself, he pretty much said that he didn't and wouldn't care about the consequences or about what anyone else thought.

And so, full circle we go. I'm sympathetic as far as one can be towards anyone facing a threat of violence, be it from a family member, intimate partner, or anyone else. It's something that no one should ever have to go through, and ultimately no one ever completely comes away with without losing something precious, even if it's only peace of mind and faith in humanity and oneself. But it is a reality of human existence, the fact that we all could, at some time, face such a threat. If and when we do, whoever is ultimately to blame for the situation won't matter unless we can survive and get out with our health and sanity intact.

So, as I said before, anyone whose got the big, pie-in-the-sky answer that will change the reality of social violence as we have known it throughout our history, go for it. Until then...

tommythegun,

A victim of DV taking responsibility for her own survival is to do whatever she can to survive. For many victims, that often means NOT reporting violence, NOT escaping a relationship, NOT getting a restraining order, because all of these things may provoke the abuser to kill her. And as we can see, the police often do not step up to the plate to protect her. This is what survival looks like in domestic violence. I am so sick of privileged idealists who have never survived a domestic violence relationship parading around telling women how to survive domestic violence when it clearly does not work.

The pig pie in the sky answer is exactly what we have been saying: stop blaming the victim because her actions for survival don't fit your ideals of how survival ought to look, stop contributing to a culture that blames the victim because it perpetuates this violence.

"For many victims, that often means NOT reporting violence, NOT escaping a relationship, NOT getting a restraining order, because all of these things may provoke the abuser to kill her. And as we can see, the police often do not step up to the plate to protect her. This is what survival looks like in domestic violence."

That sounds pretty indistinguishable from doing nothing. Ok. Well, if that works for an ideal of survival, whatever.

Medical Student, and several others:

As an adult female who has experienced harrassment and threats froom an intinmate partneer, let me give you some real life understanding.

1) I had my estrandged husband arrested for violatiing an order of protection 5 times. (Different orders, all consuctive.) Despite this, the last time I went to court to ask for a new one, citing as pecific incident which was threatening to me but still within the letter of the law for him, the judge denied it because I allowed third party contact. Third party contact was defined as both:
a) Communicating with his brother about getting his stuff out of my house,
and, astonishingly,
b) Contact through our lawyers. About divorce procedings.
My ex-husband never spent more than 24 hours in jail, despite a statute in our state that says that 3 violations of an order of protection constitute a felony, and despite the fact that I was always a cooperative witness.
I have to acknowledge that my local cops were always good about responding when I called (and I called frequently, not all the violations could be proved...ever come home to a screwdriver in your bed and a lovely picture of you and your ex laid right next to it? Not physically harmful but it lets you know he can get in whenever he wants, without leaving much in the way of legal recourse for you.) In my state the local DA is required to press charges with or without the victims cooperation, they are just given leeway when it comes to pressing the felony charges, sadly, with or without the victims cooperation.

I could have moved. Sure. The house we had bought 1 1/2 years prior could have been put on the market. And my son, who was 11 at the time, could have decided whether to stay with me or his Dad. Not like we had anything invested in staying near each other and sharing custody. (Dad is not ex-hubby for those still following.) Or I could have, as many people, including kid's dad, suggested, gotten myself a gun. And the next time the ex showed up banging on my windows and doors and then sitting outside pounding his own head with a brick (I am not kidding, here) I could have shot him while he tried to force his way in. But, like most people in this universe, I hope for the better outcome. I try to believe that the world is a better place than one in which my options are move or shoot. I try to remember that this is a human being, not a good one, not one I want in my or anyone elses life, but a human being with parents and siblings who want him to become a rational human being. There were, truly, several instances when I could have shot him, killed him even, and by law been within my rights. I'm not sure that would have made anything right for anyone in the situation.
I do not rationalize. My ex was and still is crazy (11 years later still writes graffitti about me on the men's room wall at our local hangout). And I am very lucky that I got out when I did with as few consequences as I did. because, like every other threatened person out there (and I think "threatened" is a far better word than"abused" lacking as it does the societal weight and assumptions) I did, really, fear for my life. And for the life of my son. And for the lives of others close to me. I had the resources to get out. Those resources included a local police force willing and able to respond, to increase patrols in my neighborhood, to continue responding even 2 years after the expiration of my restraining order when I found my home broken into and, without any concrete reason, knew it was my ex.

I am pretty damn sure I am alive today because my local police were on the ball when the threat was most grave. Wish I could say the same about the local prosocuters.

I know real cops. Real cops care about whether someone gets hurt, or murdered. BTW, it is "murdered", not "killed" when relationship violence reaches that particular peak. And while it is amost always labelled "Murder-suicide" please read your local news stories carefully and see just how much publicity, in the form of interviews with exes and such, is rarely ever able to resist some form of victim blaming. Heck,even when the assailant is unkonwn our society has trouble not blaming them for their own deaths. (See recent comments on the NUI shootings..)

Don' tever imagine you know a situation until you have been in it.

That sounds pretty indistinguishable from doing nothing. Ok. Well, if that works for an ideal of survival, whatever.

Wow, I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

Okay, you're not listening to us. We're talking about our experiences with domestic violence, with working with victims, or just plain listening to victims, so frankly, we're coming from a place of superior knowledge. So let me say this again.

If a man kidnapped me and told me he'd kill me if I tried to run, I'd be pretty damn scared. I can almost imagine that situation, and the amount of fear that comes as a function of that is sort of overwhelming. Try it! I promise you wouldn't feel like the ninja you think you would. Now, imagine that that man has had months or years to prove to you he's insane and has absolutely no qualms about hurting you. That's hard to feel unless you've been through it, but, even logically, if someone who has hurt you again and again says, "When you leave, I'll find you, and you better stay away from the windows," you'd do damn well to take that seriously. Any rational person would take that seriously. So yes, in some cases, it can be considered safer not to provoke murder-suicide psychos, especially when the police have told you that you have no support from them.

“Not the police, not the government, not the "patriarchy", or whatever.�

Wait, the government and police are not responsible fo rare safety??? Then why the hell do we have police? Just so they can beat up some black guy or trans person every once in a while? Why do we have an army? Why is it that they tell us we had to go to war in Iraq to keep America safe? And Patriarchy needst o be in scare quotes? You know what? Fuck you!

How is it that people who’ve never before commented on this website, come out of the woodworks for the express purpose of victim-blaming, whenever there is a post up about a female victim of assault/rape/murder?

A few points:

Her family also may have seen the boyfriend as a troubled kid who needed help. They probably hoped his time in the military would "straighten him out." (Insert discussion about mental illness and how it is poorly understood in the US here.)

So here's the thing: it's the job of the authorities to know more than the parents about this. it is their job to prevent crime, as much as it is to solve crimes or take care of them after the fact. They certainly should know more than a seventeen-year-old-girl being terrorized by an ex-boyfriend.

Thanks to all the women brave enough to share their experiences here.

They have a shared responsibility for your safety, not sole responsibility.

Has anyone claimed that the police have sole responsibility for their safety? I sure didn't.

From their standpoint, by repeatedly calling them for these incidents, then refusing to cooperate with the system that would actually hold the abuser accountable and lock him up and stop the incidents, this young woman and her family were getting to a point of abusing police resources.

Well, excepting that we don't know how that went down, do we? Have you seen a report that told you which times they pressed charges and which times they didn't? Because I haven't. What I've seen is a report that said that they didn't always choose to press charges.

Did the police have a duty to act? Yes. Should there have been a threat to jail the victim? Hell no.

Full stop.
That's the point being made.

But did the family have resources available to them that they willfully rejected, thinking that they knew better than the authorities who deal with these things on a regular basis? Yes they did, and I'm terribly sorry that they did, because it may have well changed the outcome, notwithstanding the outrageous conduct of the police.

How do you know? Again, do you have some special insight into what the police or authorities actually told them to do? Do you have some insider knowledge that the police really wanted them to press charges and they refused? Do you know them personally that you can say "they rejected the advice given to them about what to do in this case"? Because I still haven't seen an article that mentions "Police repeatedly urged them to press charges and get a restraining order, and the family refused."

You're talking about a systemic problem like it's an individual one. "Oh, if only this woman had done things differently! She might still be alive!" Ignoring that this is a pattern of behavior that is repeated over and over. If it were as easy as pointing at DV victims and saying "change what you're doing!" we'd have a lot less.

Oddly enough, finger wagging and pointing hasn't done a damn thing to change the cycle of DV in the last several decades. It doesn't seem like a strategy that's likely to work now, either.

It's always about TEH MENZ as far as DV enablers are concerned, isn't it?

Oh, please.
Yes, that's what we're saying. Won't somebody think of the men who abuse people?!
That's why we keep saying "the person responsible for the violence is that abuser, not the victim."

I'm sympathetic as far as one can be towards anyone facing a threat of violence, be it from a family member, intimate partner, or anyone else.

versus

That sounds pretty indistinguishable from doing nothing. Ok. Well, if that works for an ideal of survival, whatever.

The later seems to suggest a distinct lack of compassion or sympathy for the situation. We're not talking about ideal here. Ideally, nobody would ever be in a DV situation. We're talking about realities. We're talking about a systemic problem that has a very recognizable pattern, a big part of which is manipulation and isolation, making it harder and harder for the victim to "just leave".

BWrites, that's exactly the point I've tried to make to a few assholes who've been asking what the police should do.

The very least they can do is educate the victim and the family. They can also take these things seriously and understand that sometimes they are called to intervene in a dangerous situation even when charges will not be filed for whatever reason. That's their job!

Not to threadjack or anything, but I just wanted to point out that the Feministing editors should probably be more careful when dealing with crime stories.

Saying "Hall was murdered by her ex-boyfriend - Clay Kufner" in the absence of a conviction should set off screaming alarms and flashing red "LIBEL" signs in your head. To be fair, the source material from the Fox news affiliate is also unbelievably sloppy on attribution and the use of privileged sources in a way that exposes them to a libel claim, too.

Anyway, the point is that often, the only thing standing between you (Feministing) and a crippling libel judgment is that humble little word, "allegedly," or its sister phrase, "police said." Learn 'em, love 'em, use 'em.

/threadjack

...and then I took off my Stupid Cap, read the rest of the story and discovered that the killer took his own life. And of course, you can't libel the dead. So just ignore that previous comment. Sorry.

/public humiliation

Who does this remind me of? Oh, that's right! TTACY THURMAN! Except she miraculously survived her ex-husband's attack and when on the sue the police and the state for not protecting her. She called numerous times when her ex stood in the yard outside her house screaming that he'd kill her. They told her there was nothing they could do. After stabbing her repeatedly in the back, and jumping up and down on her head, he ran inside to get his son and show him daddy's handiwork. All the while the police officer on the scene "assessed the situation" or some such BS.

She became partially paralyzed, she can move one half of her body but not feel it, the other half can feel but not move.

Her husband said in court that if he ever got out he'd finish the job.

She got a huge amount of money from the state, most of which probably went to her hospital bills and therapy for herself and her son.

The victim blaming going on here derails all possible discussion of an actual solution. Victim blaming is a useless thing. A DV victim could take all the legal recourse available and then some, she could move away, go into hiding, etc. - and it wouldn't necessarily save her life. And it doesn't fix the problem. It isn't useful to say that she should've or shouldn't have pressed charges as there's no guarantee that either option would've saved her life. And for all we know, she may have been willing to press charges in the three weeks leading up to her murder, but did not go to police because she had been THREATENED by them and therefore didn't feel she could either trust or rely on them. While it may be frustrating for police when DV victims don't press charges those personal feelings are irrelevant when violence and murder are even remote possibilities.

Ultimately, all this is immaterial because there is no course of action she could've taken to ensure her "survival" as it has been somewhat dispassionately put. Debating about how the victim or her family could've made use of law enforcement is way to ignore the more complicated and difficult realities of attempting to change both a system that is currently unable to adequately handle DV cases and a society that allows the mentality that the abuse and murder of women is an option. Until we start focusing on what MEN can do to prevent DV, rape, etc. (and what society can do to facilitate this) we will never get anywhere, no matter how many orders of protection are issued.

I would also like to take a moment and thank posters like Leslie for their courage in sharing their stories and to say that they did so with grace and dignity.

Okay, well I happened to know both Natasha and Clay, and though I spoke to Clay more than Natasha I still knew them both. It really makes me sick how you can go by what you HEAR and make conclusions about people. Clay was a great person and he shouldnt be remembered for his last action, but for the person he was. And I know that he did an unforgivable thing, but seeing as though you didnt know EITHER of them, and you can make him have all these enemies and people talking bad about him.. it just makes me sick. Clay was so in love with Natasha, and finally all his emotions caught up with him, and I really dont think that he realized what he did until after the fact. I'm sure he panicked and thats why he shot himself as well.I dont appreciate how everyone has dubbed him a murderer and all this nonsense. Clay wasn't an abusive guy, and he didn't mean for this kind of thing to happen to. And I think that if you don't know what the full story is, then you should keep your nose out of it. No one will ever know what the full story is, but you knowing NOTHING proves that you are just ignorant and will believe anything you hear. I hope that no one believes that Clay is a monster, because that wasn't him that night, that was his emotions. I say that if you dont know the full story, then dont say anything AT ALL. thanks.

Um... he murdered a young woman in cold blood. That we do know for a fact. And that does make him a monster. Period.

"And I think that if you don't know what the full story is, then you should keep your nose out of it. No one will ever know what the full story is,"

Then by your own standard, this includes you.

Did he do it? Then he's a murderer, no matter what the excuses, and it's no nonsense. Why don't you be sick about how your friend mistreated Natasha, and killed her, instead?

"Did he do it? Then he's a murderer, no matter what the excuses, and it's no nonsense. Why don't you be sick about how your friend mistreated Natasha, and killed her, instead?"

Right on! Jamie's excuses remind me of how "honor killings" get punished with slaps on the wrist so often too (judges and juries assuming the murderers couldn't help it, they just got so emotional when they heard gossip that their female relatives weren't 100% inert...).

Wow. I had no idea that our emotions and how we act on them aren't part of who we are. It's funny that I was taught that our character is best judged by how we act during difficult times. But then, I was also taught that people don't deserve to die for making me angry. Crazy, I know.

And for all of those trolls claiming an order of protection is always a good thing to have, go read the updated news about Drew Peterson.

"Clay wasn't an abusive guy, and he didn't mean for this kind of thing to happen to."

Oh, I'm sorry, exactly how do you know that? He didn't mean for it to happen? Did you talk to him after he SHOT HIS EX GIRLFRIEND? Oh wait. You couldn't have.

You sicken me. You actually sicken me. Making excuses for a MURDERER.

"No one will ever know what the full story is, but you knowing NOTHING proves that you are just ignorant and will believe anything you hear"

Like A male said, "no one" includes you. So maybe you should shut the hell up and let the victim rest in peace.

while i, too, am a bit disgusted by the defense of a guy who shot his girlfriend "'cos if i can't have her, no one can"...

i think we all could practice a little more compassionate speech when addressing someone who just lost two people in her/his life (jamie).

"i think we all could practice a little more compassionate speech when addressing someone who just lost two people in her/his life (jamie)."

I say fuck that idea. This Jamie idiot is defending a murderer. Most of his/her comments are about Clay, and he/she says very little about Natasha at all. Clay's actions were not because he "loved" Natasha. His actions were because he wanted to control Natasha.
These guys end up killing when they fail to control their victims. Clay couldn't control her in life,he's going to control her in death. His own suicide was an extension of his fucked up way of thinking. Now that he killed Natasha, he's not going to risk going to prison. Suicide is his way of controlling what happens to him. I've read many books about domestic violence, and this is classic thinking on the part of a batterer who uses homicide/suicide to regain control.

BlackCatOnMars "Debating about how the victim or her family could've made use of law enforcement is way to ignore the more complicated and difficult realities of attempting to change both a system that is currently unable to adequately handle DV cases and a society that allows the mentality that the abuse and murder of women is an option. Until we start focusing on what MEN can do to prevent DV, rape, etc. (and what society can do to facilitate this) we will never get anywhere, no matter how many orders of protection are issued."

Yes! Exactly, victim blaming will only distract from possible ways of helping victims and preventing further abuse. Abuse that society is allowing and enabling by it's inability to handle DV cases and support victims. I didn't think of it until you mentioned it, but, I always hear comments about how the girl didn't do X, Y, or Z (classic victim blaming)...but never hear anything along the lines of what MEN can do for preventing abuse. It seems all the focus goes toward blaming the victim and the abuse is explained away as violent behavior that is to be expected because it's "men being men" reacting or overreacting with typical male behavior (basically violence is okay and expected from men). Positive things that could be done are, namely forcing a change in attitude: a) that DV is wrong, b) DV is not an option, c) and DV will not be tolerated. That of course needs to be followed up by some tough lobbying on the part of citizens and activists to get police to respond properly by following up on these cases and doing everything they can to prevent further abuse.

Still, the victim blaming really really bothers me. It bothers me that all the responsibility gets put on someone who in no way was responsible. It bothers me that because of victim blaming the abuser often gets away with the abuse and little more than a slap on the wrist. Essentially this is just a green light that okay's further abuse and sends a signal to the rest of society that abuse is okay. Society needs to start addressing the person that is really responsible for the abuse, the abuser (it defies logic why someone would put blame anyone BUT the abuser). There needs to be an attitude of intolerance for domestic violence, and it needs to be among not just women, but men too. This means speaking out against violence towards women, like, for example if they see a movie that portrays violence as okay or in a glorifying manner. There also needs to be a change from the attitude of passive acceptance "oh yeah, DV happens"...to "No, it doesn't have to happen, it should never happen". I think things like 1]societal pressure, 2]intolerance of abusive behavior by society, police, government etc. 3]better help for victims, 4]mental care for both victim and abusers or those with violent urges, 5]eradication of images that promote/glorify DV and violence toward women in media & entertainment, 6]and finally, education to create a general awareness among the population of what victims go through, that they are not at fault, and how to help - all this would be a start (and I know there are many great progressive organizations that are working toward the goal of ending DV). DV against women and the murdering of women is nothing more than female genocide and needs to stop, our society should never let it happen.