Okay, there's no way on god's green earth that declining birth rates in Europe can be compared with the Black Death. None. At. All.

And yeah, the whole article is kinda nausea-inducing. Yech.

i didn't read the whole article. then again, this isn't the first time that i hear the 'argument' that america / europe / canada aren't making enough white babies. i hope i'm formulating this right, but with current reproductive rates below the replacement level, we are headed towards a 'demographic winter' anyway in some areas of the world. my personnal theory on the subject is that the ones most afraid of this demographic slump are business people in these same regions: they see the next wave of consumers will be smaller, their companies will make less money, etc... all the while india, china & other growing economies will take over, selling their products to their populations, and eventually their countried will be more powerful than them (and of course, they can't have that). the racism underneath it all isn't even hidden. yet, does anyone call them out on it?

I have really never understood why people get so excited over reports that, say, there are more women giving birth in certain parts of England who weren't born in England themselves than who were. Humans are not dying out. The women giving birth are paying taxes like anyone else. There is no crisis-- unless these people think that people from Poland or the Middle East or whatever are necessarily inferior to people from England. Really, to hear some people talk you'd think it was immigrants who posed some kind of danger, and not nationalists.

But that is the point Marnanel, they aren't saying that humans are dying out, they're saying WHITE people are dying out, particularly white CHRISTIANS.

And they are using that fear to motivate people to go back to a time where women had no choice and they pumped out as many babies as possible because they're trying to fight the Muslims who are "taking over" their countries. What I find interesting about the article is that these christian groups are now banding together with Muslims in order to fight women's rights and reproductive freedoms, when you'd think they wouldn't care about Muslim women gaining reproductive freedom, seeing as it would bring down the birth rate if women had more choices.

It's a frightening article and no, the racism isn't even hidden anymore. One country even had a reward for people having more than one child and some immigrants won the reward but they were asked to give it back because there weren't the "right" kind of people. It's sickening.

I got to about page three in the article. It strikes me as funny that back in the early 1900's or so, the people the eugenicists in this country were worried about were Catholic immigrants from countries like Poland and Italy. It's even funnier that today's racists are decrying the "demographic problem" of Latin American immigrants while simultaneously allying themselves with Latin American anti-population control ... wait, that's not funny, that's tragic.

Is anybody else getting uncomfortable flashes from The Handmaid's Tale? Or am I being overly melodramatic?

Of course, by those standards I'm an "unwoman," so I guess that at least forced birth wouldn't be one of my worries.

Clearly the only solution is for me to drop out of college, get off BC and start popping out lots of agnostic/atheist liberal babies.

*snark*

This will end in another few hundred years, if transportation remains good... the only reason there are such big differences between people at all is because of the former difficulty of transportation.
Bah!

No, sleipetorva, remain in college and pop em out- in fact I am planning to do the same.. at least the atheist agnostic babies will have educated mums...
:D

'm living in Italy right now. I actually have a different take.

The problem is that many of the western mainland countries seem liberal and modern on the outside, but they are actually still quite traditional when it comes to women's roles in the family. They are so unyielding here that many women say "screw it". For example, it doesn't seem like as men are as open to the idea to being a stay-at-home dad in these parts.

And as far as reproductive laws--don't believe the hype. They are strict here as well. Here's where Italy really shot itself in the foot. Case in point. Italy provides the first round of in-vitro for FREE. Yet Italians with means actually go to Spain (that's right) or Switzerland to pay cash, because the laws are less stringent. Guess what the middle class Italians do. No babies, thank you very much.

As for immigration: True integration a generation---if you can blend in and lose the accent---just like in the US. But Europeans can't even decide who they are! You got Kosovo breaking away, Belgium cracking at the seams...people fighting to perserve their languages and dialects...it's crazy.

I went to the Netherlands 10 years ago fully expecting to learn Dutch. But no, I wound up in Freisland--the northern part of the country--where they spoke, guess what? Fresian! How is someone supposed to integrate into that?

I could go on, but I won't.

Kimmy, you're not alone in the Handmaid's Tale flashbacks. I read articles like this, and I find myself looking at my own baby and wondering if I'm white enough to be used as a breeder. I pass more than 90% of the time, so I suspect my future would be bleak in a world controlled by the pro-family conservatives.

A little piece of me died and I then I played angry music on my guitar to make myself feel better. It didn't work, I think I need to go read a modest proposal......

Funny, all the mentions about Handmaid's Tale. One of Atwood's points in that novel was how the men were slaves to the patriarchy just as much as the women... something that our white Christian friends in Europe would do well to learn.

I've actually read Buchanan's book on this and while I don't buy his entire thesis I do understand where he is coming from. Its not that I agree with him but I am conflicted at times when thinking of the one world concept. If we truly broke down all cultural barriers, in a few hundred years there would be no more people with blonde or red hair, green or blue eyes. It seems a shame to lose that kind of diversity. I know its silly.

The birth rate is an issue in some countries as they cannot support their current systems without more people. Sweden as an example is well below replacement rate and as long as the people doing it aren't doing it for the wrong reasons, I see nothing wrong with calls being made for more births.

As far as some in England thinking Arabs now or the Catholics of old are somehow "inferior" to them, some do hold that view but I see it as more an issue of culture than ethnicity. The Archbishop of Canterbury mentioned giving Sharia law equal costanding with Britsh law. Men could have mulitiple wives for example as long as they weren't married in Britain. I think thats what the readers of these books are responding too. As an Irish girl myself I see nothing wrong with wanting to cherish one's culture as long as you dont disadvantage anyone else.

"If we truly broke down all cultural barriers, in a few hundred years there would be no more people with blonde or red hair, green or blue eyes."

Can't a couple of people with black hair and brown eyes still have a blonde blue-eyed baby, if both parents carry the recessive genes for blonde hair and blue eyes?

"The birth rate is an issue in some countries as they cannot support their current systems without more people."

OTOH, births aren't the only way to get more people. For starters, there's adoption (even though I bet some people would still complain about white Europeans who adopt African-American children). Meanwhile, what's wrong with accepting people who choose to join you?

"It seems a shame to lose that kind of diversity."

Dananddanica (I don't know which of you is on though lol), I disagree about the diversity disappearing. It won't. You will still have ppl with red hair, blonde hair, blue eyes or green, etc. Those things are not dependant upon being white, they're dependant upon having a couple (or several) recessive genes. All you need is for both parents to have at least one allele for a recessive trait, and then their kids could possibly express it instead of the dominant one.

And recessive genes from what I know, tend to pop up again and again in a family line rather than just withering up and dying away.

I think what would end up happening could be much cooler, as the diversity and variety of genes etc would spread leading to new combinations that you may not see as often now.

And I think the issue with culture is that too often people prefer to define themselves and their culture more by what they're *not*, rather than what they are.

And I agree with everyone who brought up the Handmaid's Tale. I also couldn't help think of that whole "Make love, not war" reframe. Except they've seem to redone it into "Make love for war". sigh.

i am frequently reminded of the handmaid's tale when reading about creepy fundie stuff like this. it's such a great book but i wish i could read it without thinking that anything in it could actually ever happen. *shudder*

i honestly don't know what's more appalling about this particular article--the misogyny or the racism. it makes me pukey all around.

Sometimes I wake up in night sweats frightened that the fundies will out-breed us all, but then I laugh at my childishness and go back to sleep. I suggest these people do the same. I also am reminded of the Handmaid's Tale. And fascists. Sure it might be a little sad if the current European cultures were replaced or changed, but change is healthy and a part of life. Sometimes you just need to let go. Especially since inter-cultural contacts lead to some wonderful advancements! Just look at the culture of modern Spain. It would not exist today if not for the melding of Jewish, Christian, and Islamic cultures during the middle ages. Culture is not static and was never meant to be.

"Sweden as an example is well below replacement rate and as long as the people doing it aren't doing it for the wrong reasons, I see nothing wrong with calls being made for more births."

While I understand the underlying point [though I can't say I especially agree with it] of people/countries having an interest in making sure their culture/population/whatever remains "intact" [and, as the previous poster mentioned, why does culture have to be treated as static?], I think it's sort of stupid of any country to promote people giving birth. There are TONS of people in the world, and we're essentially in an environmental crisis right now. Not to mention all the children that don't have homes already. Honestly, I have to say that actively encouraging further reproduction is slightly irresponsible. I am certainly not advocating for the restriction of women's reproductive rights in the least, and I mostly believe it's an intensely personal choice that shouldn't be subjected to governmental interference, but people seem to already be choosing not to reproduce.
The motives are full of xenophobia and the crazy-nationalist obsession with "preserving" culture and even dominant appearance of citizens... which is pretty offensive and petty considering the other issues at stake here.

I, too, and reminded of The Handmaid's Tale. Ew.

Mina,
Theres absolutely nothing wrong with accepting people who choose to join you. I would say there is something wrong with the people you accept in turn not accepting you as is becoming the case in some European countries.

Yes there are many ways you can increase a population other than the people already there having more kids. Adoption is a great option but the majority of the people will come through immigration. One of my best friends lives in Sweden, (Gothenburg, I'm hoping he can get me a sweet deal on a new Volvo), and they have a great country there. Lots of problems just like any other country but on the whole they have a great human rights record and excellent educational/social benefits. Their birth rate is really low from their "native" population. They used to be more willing to accept any kind of immigrant but they are running into problems with people coming in, rejecting Swedish culture, interjecting their own and becoming angry when they are asked to learn a little about Sweden, its language, history or culture. That doesn't seem right to me. All people benefit from a mixing of cultures and as noted above its not like "culture" is some specific thing and completely separate from any other but it seems it will be an especially rocky process when you mix progressive Western Europeans with some peoples ideas of islamic ideaology.

Faery,
That could very well be true. I've read a number of articles/reports that say blondes will not exist by 2200 or that freckles will go the way of the dodo by a certain date. I'm no geneticist but those publications are out there even if I discount the buchanan-type writings.

We will sign these posts from now on, this time you got --Dan

LlesbianLlama, exactly. Although I would never want to force my beliefs about reproduction onto anyone, I too find it irresponsible to be advocating reproduction (especially considering that the only reason they even care is so that they can keep out the brown people (horrors)). In the West people consume resources at an insane rate , many times more than the rest of the world, despite our lesser populations. Therefore, given the current environmental problems we are having, to have more Western children is probably negative.

I find it so ironic someone with a screen name like "athiest woman" loses sleeps over "fundies" (as do I) but prefers Islam. Not all Muslims fit the "stereotype" of stringently religious, woman-oppressing (as part of religion and/or "culture").

" Sure it might be a little sad if the current European cultures were replaced or changed, but change is healthy and a part of life. Sometimes you just need to let go. Especially since inter-cultural contacts lead to some wonderful advancements! Just look at the culture of modern Spain. It would not exist today if not for the melding of Jewish, Christian, and Islamic cultures during the middle ages. Culture is not static and was never meant to be."

Are you kidding me? I agree that the Jews and Muslims brought "reason" into Dark Ages Europe, but are you ACTUALLY saying that's what goes on now? Muslims of the modern world are importing wisdom to liberal, democratized, largely secular countries (as opposed to balking at it....anyone here heard of Theo van Gogh?)

I never understood how a Muslim from an economically stable family (as the 7/7/05 bus bombers were) and suicide bombers who enjoy living in a country like England can terrorize people and choose death.

I am aware racism exists in some of these places with new immigrants; but even then, I'm sorry, but again, I have no romantic feelings for those few who practice their "culture" by abusing and oppressing women, and am wary of all organized religion after being raised Catholic. If "multi-culturalism" means condoning practices we've worked centuries to rid ourselves of him, to hell with it. That doesn't mean disenfranchising or shutting people out simply b/c of the color of their skin, their faith (unless they're in a destructive cult), etc. etc.

But bitching about the fundies...the same people referred to as "the American Taliban" in the U.S....

How can we make blanket statements about the treasures of others' "cultures" when those "cultures" SOMETIME represent the worst in our own society?

P.S. Their is no population crisis...if preserving liberal European culture is the problem, hell, let people adopt impoverished North African orphans and raise children that way.

xxhelenaxx. Thanks for reading a whole lot of wrong into what I said. I NEVER said I preferred Islamic culture, although they do have some good ideas about a lot of things. Yeah, I know about what they did to Theo. I shouldn't actually have to say this, but I don't at all endorse the Taliban, and also do not support a culture when it oppresses or abuses women, or denies them agency. Also, I wasn't making blanket statements about how wonderful all other cultural aspects are, I was referring to a specific result (Modern Spanish culture) that came about because of a turbulent and violent time (hint, Spain was invaded by the Moors). Also the fundies are not the "american taliban" the two arise out of the same cultural patterns.

My family has a red haired recessive gene in there somewhere. It's cute because the vast majority of us are brown haired, brown eyed, yet I have 2 redheaded cousins and a redheaded uncle. I fully expect to birth my own redhead some day :)

that was...blatant.

i read the original quiverfull article and thought it was "meh."

and the duggar photo, imho, doesnt really belong on a feminist website. respect for choice extends to all choices.

This argument comes up all the time in Australia - and of course the white people who have the most babies are relatively poor, and we don't want THEM either! Oh, and I'll be sure to remind my blue-eyed blond-haired brother that he is a race traitor for having half-Chinese children...

The whole "red hair/blue eyes/pale skin will disappear" thing is racist propaganda. Outside of racist circles it gets spread by people with poor knowledge of genetics. The reality is recessive genes don't just go away. Almost all genetic diseases are recessive and even though the genes are usually very rare in populations (much rarer than red hair or blue eyes) they keep popping up when people least expect it. Like someone I know who had a child with a genetic disease and found out she and her husband shared an ancestor centuries ago on the other side of the world. The gene was passed on through all that time without disappearing.

Dananddanica the problem with the "blondes/redheads will go extinct!1!twelve!" thing: http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/blondes.asp It's a myth.

And as other have mentioned, blondeness, red hair and light eyes? All in the recessives. I'm naturally a blonde with green eyes, and none of my family has either.

@athiestwoman:

My apologies if it was a little incoherent/hostile. (Should have finished that first sentence for myself because I put it there to avoid being accused of slandering ALL immigrants of Muslim countries to Europe...unfinished thought = I come off like especially unclear/accusatory).
I don't you think you prefer Islam or the Taliban.

My point is I'd call myself "liberal" and agnostic and I am wary of both and all fundies, which is why I cringe at the notion of "multiculturalism" b/c it seems to be a code word for tolerating what we wouldn't if it was done by the "majority".

Whether the "fundies" are white and Christian or brown and non-Christian believes "tradition" involves keeping women in their place and is wary of science (because science disrupts faith), to hell with it.

That and I did find the comment about the Middle Ages out of place. Nations with a majority of Muslims (even the non-Arab countries which are supposedly more liberal) are going through their own "dark age." Some of has alot more to do with poverty than poverty coupled with deliberate, institutionalized misogyny, but when they overlap, how can you tell?

I don't believe in churning out babies to "preserve culture", but if someone told me religious anti-choice anti-gay voters of all nationalities--Hispanic, American, Caribbean, etc.--were forming a "culture" that was dwarfing and swallowing the "culture" of moderates and liberals, I'd be uncomfortable too.

The notion of one "culture" (largely secularized, if flawed) being replaced by another (one in which some of its members practice violence and sexual humiliation of women) is not neutral. The whole "make babies" notion is not a good solution, but I hate pretending that you have to be blatantly, 100% racist if you don't turn a blind eye to honor killings, disowning daughters, and anything else condoned under the title of "tradition/culture/religion" of ANY people, not just whitey.

articles like this one make me want to...

Adopt a bunch of African and Middle Eastern babies with another woman when I am old enough and have a good career!(I am also a woman btw)

I have thought of this idea before, adopting children from an orphanage. I just think it would be nice to give some kids a chance at opportunities they normally wouldn't have in a foster home or orphanage.

People needs to stand up for these these "unwanted" kids! It must be horrible growing up in a country as a kid and having some rightwing nutjob tell you you are the wrong kind of kid!

um. wow.

it will be an especially rocky process when you mix progressive Western Europeans with some peoples ideas of islamic ideaology.

and

If we truly broke down all cultural barriers, in a few hundred years there would be no more people with blonde or red hair, green or blue eyes. It seems a shame to lose that kind of diversity.

i mean, wow.

If "multi-culturalism" means condoning practices we've worked centuries to rid ourselves of him, to hell with it.

i haven't got too much to add to that, because i think this jingoist, racist and ethnocentric claptrap speaks for itself.

i would like to thank folks like wonderbunny and becca for bringing some sense into the conversation and spike for genuinely engaging with what's going on and adding a perspective that i, for one, found enriching.

this other stuff - well, let's say it helps me understand why some people peg this site as having a very narrow demographic.

nevermind, i will say something.

i mean, really, i did not expect to wander on here during my all-nighter to find people defending racist christian fundies by arguing that brown people (and, particularly, muslims) are a monolithic, violent and right-wing group. i mean, really, that's what this is.

while i, too, feel threatened by the resurgence of right-wing fundamentalism among religions (particularly, abrahamic religions), i also see that it's a lot easier to see what's bad in the "other" than in our own culture.

that does not necessarily mean that these negative characteristics are any more essential in other cultures than they are in our white-christian dominated one.

see, where multiculturalism, for lack of a better word, comes in, is in recognizing that every culture, world-over, is rich and diverse and to break it down to a two-dimensional caricature of everything we fear is in the worst interest of humanity. multiculturalism, at its best, not co-opted ideal, involves listening before speaking, ie., recognizing that an overwhelming majority of people who are different than you are not monsters and that it's important to tell the difference between people who commit horrendous acts and people who just look like them.

no one here is trying to "turn a blind eye to honor killings," but rather to recognize that finding all muslims guilty of honor killings is paramount to finding all christians guilty of killing lgbt folks (um, 'cos christians don't have issues with viciously blaming women for premarital sex and rape) or all white people guilty of lynching black people. it's intellectually dishonest and serves to do nothing but push a blatantly political agenda and silence the voices of any allies we could have had in struggling against the oppression and repression of all people.

on the other hand, enough people of color have probably given up on trying to convince white people that they're human that it doesn't matter all that much now what a bunch of white liberal feminists think. is that what i want? no. is it reasonable in light of half the comments on this post? perhaps.

so before folks take a step further in justifying fundamentalism as a valid response to fundamentalism, just realize that that's exactly what it is.

white supremacism, jingoism, racism and ethnocentrism, by any other names, smell just as nasty.

ugh.

"The whole 'red hair/blue eyes/pale skin will disappear' thing is racist propaganda. Outside of racist circles it gets spread by people with poor knowledge of genetics. The reality is recessive genes don't just go away."

Right on!

"The whole 'make babies' notion is not a good solution, but I hate pretending that you have to be blatantly, 100% racist if you don't turn a blind eye to honor killings, disowning daughters, and anything else condoned under the title of 'tradition/culture/religion' of ANY people, not just whitey."

I totally agree. The answer is to accept good customs, accept neutral/harmless customs, and crack down on cruel customs, no matter where the customs are from.

When you read the article you get a clue of some aspects in the demographic discussion we have here in Germany for two or three years. Catholics and conservatives are freaking out because German women give birth to "only" 1,4 babies to average. And they say that the "wrong" Germans get the babies - turkish immigrants, poor people and people with a lower education. This is all such a crap, so stupid and shameful for a "civilized" society. And it's crazy that these populists are now supported by some Americans!

Puckalish,

Thank you. Really. I saw some of those comments and didn’t know how /didn’t have time to begin to address them, other than to say “F you!�. Actually I stopped reading this thread after I saw the blue-eye blonde hair nonsense…. So thank you for responding to those. The comments do get really nauseating for me whenever there is a post up about immigrants/ Muslims/ or Muslim women’s issues.

Less white babies being born. What the article is saying is the affluent, liberal, liberated culture is delaying/postponing childbirth and then having just one kid. Also, the culture having multiple babies is having them because there is little abortion, women are relegated to subservient roles, and Father/Husband is ruler of the household. In other words,the high birthrate is due to the aggressive patriarchy.

"Less white babies being born. What the article is saying is the affluent, liberal, liberated culture is delaying/postponing childbirth and then having just one kid. Also, the culture having multiple babies is having them because there is little abortion, women are relegated to subservient roles, and Father/Husband is ruler of the household. In other words,the high birthrate is due to the aggressive patriarchy."

...yet *neither* limiting immigration *nor* pushing locals to have more babies than they want will solve *this* problem.

Instead, how about liberating everyone including *all* immigrants (not just the patriarchs among them)? Have age-appropriate and comprehensive sex ed in all the schools, don't exclude the ones with "overwhelmingly immigrant" student bodies (a la the Netherlands in 2004: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3398769.stm ). Have a high minimum age for marriage for everyone, not a lower one for recent immigrants and their descendants (remember how Sweden, with the support of the Federation of Kurdish Associations, fixed its double standard: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3267727.stm ). And so on.

"white supremacism, jingoism, racism and ethnocentrism, by any other names, smell just as nasty."

third that, thanks.