The Chinese people have managed this quite well on their own without official government officials by adopting out so many of their unwanted female babies.

The Chinese people have managed this quite well on their own without official government sanction by adopting out so many of their unwanted female babies.

Ugh, I can't type when I'm this exhausted. Sorry for the double-post.

while this is only moderately helpful, I thought there were problems in China based around the fact that there are not enough women there-I read this as a complaint about the whole one child policy, and I know I read it years later than the above quote was made, so I suppose it should be taken with a grain of salt, but still. The it's got a bit of Alanis Moresette irony.

I suspect (but don't *know*) that Kissinger's response was a tongue-in-cheek reference to Swift's very famous satirical essay "A Modest Proposal," which recommended eating babies to cure overpopulation.

At least I hope it was.

Of course, I'd rather read that he had challenged the horrifically sexist 'trade' idea suggested by Mao instead of dismissing it with a quip.

And to think I bought a musical Chairman Mao lighter in Shanghai.

This was vintage Chinese sexism, but Kissinger's response was diplomatic. Of course we never considered his offer, it was ludicrous and laughable, but when you're trying to open relations to China as Kissinger was you don't get to challenge the dictator of China. What was he supposed to do?

cause men have nothing to do w/ reproduction...

Kissinger's response isn't so offensive as much as it is diplomat-speak for "You cannot possibly be serious... I'm going to pretend to consider it while we talk about something else."

Of course, I never really had much respect for Mao in the first place.

I was just going to say that I agree with Crotchfire (awesome name btw) that Kissinger was just diffusing a bizzare situation. Chairman Mao also told fart jokes during diplomatic talks, the man was seriously unbalanced. Besides, Mao was the one that said all good communist women would have as many kids as possible so communist china could take over the world. Man was N-U-T-S. He was directly responsible for a famine that killed millions of people in the 50/60s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

Anyhow...that live video ad for True embedded in the page IS pretty offensive. Bouncy "21" year old girl on bed...very original advertising. sigh. (I know feministing doesn't control the adds...but it still sucks).

Re: Mao

So, how's that one-child policy working out in a culture that overvalues boys?

Re: Kissinger

Did you expect Kissinger to blow up at Mao, or even to scold him? He was being a diplomat to a backwards culture, cut him some slack when he needs to be diplomatic. I'll echo Crotchfire, sounds like he was trying to change the subject as quickly as he could.

Considering the current problem that they are having with too few women, due to their selective abortion of female fetuses and the "one child" policy, this statement is amusing.

Ask-and-you-shall-receive-irony. Now they get to deal with the concequences.

The thing w/ the "one child policy" is that, as horrible as it is, it hasn't had time to do what the government wants it to. There is a generational gap to work w/. Every woman alive when the policy was put into action still had the right to have one child, and those children are just now coming into the age where they will be having children, one each, themselves. Add this to not everyone adhering to the policy (rural families can get away w/ it b/c they farm and there is very little government policing in the sparsely populated areas, and urban dwelling families can pay fines, and many do, to have more than one child) and you have a large population still.

the tragedy of the decline in females in china will also hit them in the ass when all of this huge population hits their elder years. traditionally, the daughter in law takes care of the elderly parents...who is going to take care of them now?

Mao Ze Dong was insane, after all he cried for everyone to stop growing food and start forging...and hated birds so much he offered rewards for people to hunt them...I am not surprised at all by his offer...even though he thought it was every woman's communist duty to "go forth and multiply"...

what i feel sorry for are the good people of china, the ones who have to deal w/ this bass ackwards government meddling in their affairs constantly...

i could go on a rant for longer...but that would just bore you all!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7243500.stm

It seems like CNN's version of the story spun it differently, Mao was obviously being sarcastic, it was an inappropriate joke but not some kindof serious suggestion:

"The remark provoked laughter and was clearly meant as a joke, but Mao went on to complain that Chinese women were giving birth to too many children.

...When discussing the possibility of a Soviet invasion of China, Mao complained that too many Chinese women didn't know how to fight.

A Chinese official warned that his comments would incur public anger if they were released.

Mao later apologised to a female interpreter and he and Mr Kissinger agreed to remove his comments about women from the records."

It was a lame boys-club culture thing to say but lets not exaggerate the significance. This is someone who championed women's rights against a reactionary feudal society and offered a feminist critique of the relationship between women and men in China, not only in communities but within the family.

Mao wrote:

"A man in China is usually subjected to the domination of three systems of authority (political authority, clan authority and religious authority). As for women, in addition to being dominated by these three systems of authority, they are also dominated by the men (the authority of the husband). These four authorities -- political, clan, religious and masculine -- are the embodiment of the whole feudal-patriarchal ideology and system, and are the four thick ropes binding the Chinese people, particularly the peasants...

...

In order to build a great socialist society, it is of the utmost importance to arouse the broad masses of women to join in productive activity. Men and women must receive equal pay for equal work in production. Genuine equality between the sexes can only be realized in the process of the socialist transformation of society as a whole. "

http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Mao/Mao-31-Women.html

Not enough present day sexism, so posting a story from 35 years ago?

MrMorden and ouyangdan:

While I agree that Mao's "offer" was utterly appalling, I don't think it's fair to characterize the entire country as "backwards." If we want to build relationships with nations and communities that are not our own, we need to stay away from "us" vs. "them" rhetoric. Patriarchy and sexism exists in EVERY country, including our own. Although women's rights may seem more advanced in some nations, many non-Western countries have achieved greater success in other areas of women's equality such as representation of women in public office.

If you're a regular Feministing reader, I'm sure you know that the future of U.S. women's rights is bleak (see Carhart II, Ledbetter, that f-ed up MD rape case) and we live in a (mainstream) culture that condones the objectification and commodification of women's bodies. I'd say that we have a lot of work we need to do to correct our own "backwards culture" before we point fingers at others.

MrMorden and ouyangdan:

While I agree that Mao's "offer" was utterly appalling, I don't think it's fair to characterize the entire country as "backwards." If we want to build relationships with nations and communities that are not our own, we need to stay away from "us" vs. "them" rhetoric. Patriarchy and sexism exists in EVERY country, including our own. Although women's rights may seem more advanced in some nations, many non-Western countries have achieved greater success in other areas of women's equality such as representation of women in public office.

If you're a regular Feministing reader, I'm sure you know that the future of U.S. women's rights is bleak (see Carhart II, Ledbetter, that f-ed up MD rape case) and we live in a (mainstream) culture that condones the objectification and commodification of women's bodies. I'd say that we have a lot of work we need to do to correct our own "backwards culture" before we point fingers at others.

MrMorden and ouyangdan:

While I agree that Mao's "offer" was utterly appalling, I don't think it's fair to characterize the entire country as "backwards." If we want to build relationships with nations and communities that are not our own, we need to stay away from "us" vs. "them" rhetoric. Patriarchy and sexism exists in EVERY country, including our own. Although women's rights may seem more advanced in some nations, many non-Western countries have achieved greater success in other areas of women's equality such as representation of women in public office.

If you're a regular Feministing reader, I'm sure you know that the future of U.S. women's rights is bleak (see Carhart II, Ledbetter, that f-ed up MD rape case) and we live in a (mainstream) culture that condones the objectification and commodification of women's bodies. I'd say that we have a lot of work we need to do to correct our own "backwards culture" before we point fingers at others.

dear priscilla...back the heck up...i called the government backwards, not the culture...i have a love of their culture...don't go pointing fingers at me...try reading the things i wrote first...i spent a lot of time studying the language and culture of china (if you knew anything you could tell by my screen name)...i criticized mao and the communist government, not the people of china. get things straight before you dare criticize me...i have a longing to help further the cause of human rights in china, especially where they deal w/ their women, taiwan and tibet.

as a matter of fact, i am a regular reader, and take great offense to what you just implied i said.

"He was being a diplomat to a backwards culture"

The fact that you are highly interested and say you appreciate and know about Chinese culture does not mean anything in terms of this very problematic statement that we need to get way from.

We cannot generalize ANY culture (or government) in one word, especially the word "backward." It implies Western hegemony in feminist discourse when there is a huge need for a transnational union in this age of globalization that affects many things including issues on gender.

You DID call them a backwards culture and even if you meant government, what honestly makes OUR government any more free than anybody elses?

As a Latina feminist living in the West, I refuse to imply my ideals, discourses and even priorities on women with different perspectives, points of view, and issues that affect them in various terms including race, class, location, sexuality, etc.

I propose a solution to these miscommunications, and I beg you to stop being so defensive about how much you're so into Chinese culture because it doesn't contribute to anything nor justify your hegemonic statement.

In order to achieve the challenges and differences that the effort for the achievement of transnational feminism we need to look at genealogies, histories, herstories, and really analyze why people have their ideals and priorities.

A big misunderstanding about feminism in China has actually to do with the pre-Mao, Mao and post-Mao areas. Mao actually had a state-sponsored feminism in China when continental Chinese women refused to identify themselves as feminists a lot of feminists both Western and Chinese women in diaspora were outraged. Once we look at the history and what Mao literally forcing feminism on women and not leaving them any choice, you can get a better understanding of why Continental Chinese women refuse the term "feminist" before immediately simplifying the situation and just calling a culture or even a government "backwards."

Women in "Third World" (note the quotation marks, I am using this term like Chandra Talpade Mohanty does as a political term that identifies people not only geographically but also people in diaspora, not a derrogatory term that establishes superiority of one country over another) countries are not victims, they do not "need our help" and have the capability, and oh have they exercised agency. It is a great unjustice to their struggles, their voices, and efforts to simply call their governments, cultures, and/or countries "backwards."

Mao was simply a monsterous excuse for a human being who saw people in general as fodder for his mad plans. Women get extra stick. As per bloody usual.

p.s. "what i feel sorry for are the good people of china, the ones who have to deal w/ this bass ackwards government meddling in their affairs constantly..."

"feeling sorry" and "wishing we could do something" or "being grateful and lucky to be in 'free democratic' America" isn't going to solve anything.

Nobody deserves pity, nor being sorry for. This statement, although good-natured and seeming with good intentions, accomplishes nothing. People in China are NOT victims, I suggest you please look at least a little more into their history and the agency these women have exercised. I suggest some readings by authors Shu-mei Shih ("Towards an Ethics of Transnational Encounters or When does a 'Chinese' Woman become a 'Feminist'? ") and Yenna Wu ("Making Sense in Chinese 'Feminism'/Women's Studies") both in the book titled Dialogues and Difference: Feminisms Challenge Globalization edited by Maguerite Waller and Sylvia Marcos. Icouldn't explain this complex topic any better than these women.

uhh...no that is not what i said. i did not say the chines people or their culture are backwards...i said their government is...and if you paid attention you would know that the communists in power in china now are backward in their thinking and treatment of people, as well as the other special autonomous regions they exert their perceived superiority over. mao ze dong practically drove the nation into ruin, womanized w/o regard and i am supposed to support his ideas b/c they are different from my own? yeah, he was so feminist!
the chinese government works it's ass off to obliterate the culture of the people it dictates...it has been doing it to taiwan for years, and to tibet as well. yes...the people of china have their own agency and there are many people working to make it better...but i stand by my statement that the government officials and what they do is backward. i did not say we should meddle...i offered an explanation as to why the one child policy isn't working...one that was free from judgement and racial stereotypes...

as a native american woman who lived on reservations her whole life and watched her own culture obliterated by our government, i am fully aware of how fucked up ours is. i call bullshit on your implication of my superiority.

get your quotes straight and don't lecture me. i did not say what you said i did...maybe you should get off of your superior high horse and off of my back.

The really fun part about this (as anyone who's studied the history of the Chinese cultural revolution knows) is that Mao was the one who initially made policy after policy FORCING women to have numerous babies and outlawing birth control (and, you know, executing anyone who'd ever produced it or tried to advocate for it) because he had this monstrously stupid idea that the way to fix the poverty problem was to create more workers...never mind the fact that a)limited resources are limited resources and b)babies can't exactly do much in the way of helping with labor.

So naturally, once this plan flopped, he blamed the women.

Just for shits and giggles...who here has actually been to China?

I had to ask.

Actually your quotes were directly copy-pasted so I am not putting words in your mouth nor making any assumptions about your background nor telling you to "get off your high horse."

I am also NOT supporting Mao (nor his ideas or his sense of "feminism"). I am just telling it as it is in the most neutral way possible. I was not implying that you were asserting any superiority in any way, but that your overly simplified statement of, as in a copy-paste from your comment, a "backwards culture," whether you meant culture or government it still has that negative connotation and highly problematic tone, not necessarily meaning that you FEEL superior.

I am not lecturing you either, as a Critical Gender Studies major, this type of discussion takes place in classrooms, grassroots organizations, etc. and this dialogue is what strengthens our causes, but in order for this dialogue to take place there needs to be respect and there are no such thing as "stupid opinions," remember I never intended that, I was just sharing my views on your statement and offered arguments as to why it's use is problematic and simplified.

I really regret that you are getting super defensive and even throwing obscenities here and there when I was just simply trying to open a decent dialogue with you about this, but according to you I "need to get off...[my] superior high horse and off...[your] back," so much for dialogue!

Liza, I have never been to China, and I don't know everything there is to know about China either (I hope I am not giving that impression :/)

Nope, you're not, and that's not why I was asking. Really. I'm just curious.

Going there certainly won't teach you everything about their history. And what you'll learn about culture hinges very much on how long you're there and where you go.

Par example, I was there for two weeks in May 2006. I learned that while they are technically communist, there is still a lot of free market/capitalism, especially in marketplaces and wherever there are lots of tourists.

I also learned that vegetarianism is really uncommon because for many, meat is too expensive to eat regularly and thus a sign of luxury and wealth, so choosing not to eat it doesn't make much sense (hence why I starting eating meat again after 7 years - two weeks of white rice alone doesn't provide much energy, especially when there are 90-minute marching band shows to perform).

I only learned a handful of words - hello, thank you, and cheers.

I learned that there actually are places with worse drivers than Georgia. Someone told me that China has something like 5% of the world's drivers but 25% of the world's traffic fatalities. It's also outrageously expensive not only to get a driver's license but to register and insure a car, because they're trying to cut down on accidents and pollution.

I learned that lotus root is yummy. But it's really expensive in the states.

I learned that people in China don't see Americans in person very often, so they like to stare at (and sometimes take pictures with/of) black people, very tall people, blonds, and redheads.

I learned when traveling to Asia you should always carry toilet paper, hand sanitizer, Cipro, Immodium, and a little hand calculator (for haggling with someone who doesn't speak English).

Oh, and it's always 8 yuan to the dollar, it fluctuates at the same rate.

My point is, nothing I learned there had a whole lot to do with politics. Unless you want to know how to barter for Chairman Mao merchandise at street markets.

I wasn't trying to make my question sound condescending or anything (like, if you've never been there you couldn't possibly know what you're talking about). I was really curious. I lost track of how common it is to travel to Asia because I went with my college marching band, so basically once I had been there so had almost everyone I knew.

No I did not get offended by your question, I am just trying to stay away from giving the impression that I think I know everything when I simply offer my insights and a couple of worthwhile readings (not reading lists).

I completely agree with you and that was the point I was trying to get across, you don't necessarily have to love/feel sorry for Chinese people, their culture or travel to their country to have a sense of awareness of their past and present.

Traveling itself is a great way of people of different backgrounds connecting, as long as it's done in a diplomatic, responsible manner and we stay away from exerting a Western gaze on people and their oh-so-exotic and "bizarre" culture.

If anything I have not traveled anywhere other than a close radius in southern California and Northern Baja California, Mexico due to my insane fear of planes (someday I shall overcome it, I hope) so I'd rather indulge in people telling me about their travels for the meantime without necessarily having to get political or defensive.

Like you said, simply traveling to a place and/or knowing a few people from said place is not going to give us all the knowledge of that place and while my academic skills are not necessary for survival nor my only source of information, they are essential to opening up doors for more and more questions and dialogues. A former professor of mine spent almost a lifetime studying China, but we cannot assume, nor does she claim, to know EVERYTHING about it, nor is she going to immediately block suggestions, ideas, or shared readings because of her experiences or what have you.

This comment section just slapped me in the face with reality that some people are not up for discussion and immediately assume that you are trying to ridicule them when in reality you're not the one making the personal attacks.

I think the stuff you learned, although it's not the history or politics of the place, but the results of the politics of the place and you know that history can explain their customs, their traditions and ideals and why things work the way they do there as well as information to have in mind when traveling there which means a lot more than you may think.

While it is true that they have had their share of hardships and probably still have like every other country (yes even the US, not the one you see on TV though) we need to learn why they arrive at these ideals and events to understand where they are coming from, and there is no way that just one single person can contain all that knowledge.

It's my understanding that the male-female ratio is very skewed in China thanks to the one-child policy, because girls are either aborted, neglected or killed outright. How true is this?

Dear ouyangdan,

I'm sorry that you took so much offensive to my comment (which was unintentionally posted 3 times b/c my computer froze- sorry everyone). I'm a bit surprised by how defensive you got. As a WOC with immigrant parents from Taiwan, I've endured a lifetime of "orientalist" and "West is best" rhetoric, therefore I try to take opportunities to open up dialogue, especially when the comments are made without malice.

I don't claim to know everything about any particular culture, but I do feel that we should call each other out when something doesn't sit well with one of us so that we can learn from one another and build solidarity.

"It's my understanding that the male-female ratio is very skewed in China thanks to the one-child policy, because girls are either aborted, neglected or killed outright. How true is this?"

Don't forget the girls who are adopted internationally (not all of who were neglected on the way). Also, I heard that some parents of girls who want to try again for a boy just keep their daughters off the census until school age.

The male/female ratio in China is a little skewed, but I wouldn't say it's "very skewed". Here, you can go here yourself to look at the numbers:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ch.html

My understanding from my Chinese friends is that China is hardly the bastion of sexism it once was. It's sort of like the U.S., still has its problems but it's on the way to modernization...

And just FYI, the whole aborting female fetuses thing is not as common as it used to be. Now families with enough money can simply pay the government to let them raise more children -and I think lots of people do this...

The male/female ratio in China is a little skewed, but I wouldn't say it's "very skewed". Here, you can go here yourself to look at the numbers:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ch.html

My understanding from my Chinese friends is that China is hardly the bastion of sexism it once was. It's sort of like the U.S., still has its problems but it's on the way to modernization...

And just FYI, the whole aborting female fetuses thing is not as common as it used to be. Now families with enough money can simply pay the government to let them raise more children -and I think lots of people do this...

If we look at the census data and assume that any action that would be taken to harm a fetus or an infant would be done with the intention of preferencing /boys/, and otherwise birth and infant mortality numbers would be equal for boys and girls, then based on these numbers I think we can estimate that about 1 out of 10 female fetuses are aborted, and 1 out of 200 female infants are deliberately neglected to the point of death or killed. Keep in mind that the desire for sons is stronger in general in more rural, less "modern" areas.

Actually, checking numbers from the U.S. for comparison sake, it seems that also in the U.S. at birth more babies are male than female. The difference between China and the US would be the equivalent of China having 1 out of 20 fewer female fetuses come to term...