Brilliant!

that's awesome!

awwwwwwwww :) Awesome message.

Even better, kiss folk with the same kind of genitalia to yours!

this is rad. i'm putting those posters everywhere.

are you saying that would be better for this photo or better overall marnanel?

definitely not trying to be incendiary here or anything, but doesn't this start to toe the line between anti-war and anti-military that anti-war protesters are usually so careful not to cross?

i'm definitely for protesting the war, but protesting enlistment? i'm kind of confused as to what the message is supposed to be here. enlisting can give people great opportunities, i.e. my cousin, who doesn't regret his decision to enlist in the Marine Corps. again, not trying to be high and mighty or set off an argument here, just kind of wondering if the message isn't a bit off...

WOW nice website: "Military Predators Out of Our Community!" "Marines/Army out of ____ (YOUR CITY)! Marines/Army out of Iraq! Help us take our city back!"

Yeah... as a female member of the U.S Army, I take offense to comments like that. Whatever your stance (or mine) happens to be on the current war, remember that your sisters are serving and dying over there. Let's try to have some respect.

On a side note... that website has wayyy to much pink. Holy shit, it's so annoying. Women DO like other colors than pink, you know. And having a kissing protest in front of a recruiting station isn't going to to anything to deter any serious recruits. Let's find a campaign that dosen't appeal to emotions, and we might take you seriously. Remember, us military babykillers don't have emotions you can play off of.

There are even MORE Iraqis dying than our American "sisters".

I realize that the military gives poor people opportunities but that doesn't negate all the harm the military does, plus, does anyone else have an issue with the fact the military recruits poor minorities because they KNOW they have limited opportunities? Come on, that is FUCKED UP.

Our military is voluntary, if people stop enlisting it'll send a bigger message to the govt that we want OUT of Iraq and we want it NOW.

Military recruiters are predatory. I work in a high school and I actually had to intervene on behalf of a student who was essentially being harassed by a military recruiter to join. The guy was even pulling him out of class to talk to him about it and making him miss out on class time.

I am not getting into my personal views on the Iraq war. But I will say that ANY war for ANY reason (even the most justified) is horrendus for everybody involved. People suffer and die all around, and to imply that the suffering of Iraqis is somehow more signifigant than the suffering of your own countrymen is just sad.

So drop the quotes around "sisters", MirandaJay. Because like it or not, they are your sisters and your defenders. Regardless of the war we are fighting today, the one we fight tomorrow might be the one to save your ass.

Also, as a latina woman, I would like to say that us "poor minorities" don't need your defending. We are perfectly capable of weighing the costs/benefits of military service and making our own informed decisions, THANKS though for your concern.

And, about the High School kid. Recruiters don't just randomly draw unsuspecting High school kids' names out of a hat. You have to express an interest in the military before any recruiter will contact you, and if you say a simple (and direct) "No thanks, not interested, I have your number", most recruiters will back off.
They have enough real leads to follow without having to chase around one kid. That would be a waste of money and resources.

Adriana,

I am from a primarily white low-income community, and I can also say that I've heard stories of military recruiters being pretty pushy with kids (I had one be a little pushy with myself, actually).

And high school kids aren't always fully mentally capable adults yet, no matter what their socioeconomic status. Some kids /are/ going to make decisions, such as deciding to join the military, without comprehensive information or without thinking the whole thing through or based on current feelings about their life that could change in a year or so.

And I think there is really nothing patronizing to point out the fact that military recruiters target low-income communities, because it's true. That has nothing to do with people from low-income communities being unintelligent, it has to do with the idea that it's a problem that we have an economic system that limits some people's opportunities, and some of those people are dying in part so that rich oil CEOs can make more money.

LOVE the picture! Love the "Make out not war" tagline. Wonderful positive thought.

Don't really like the website or the anti-enlistment concept though. I have to back up the commenter above.

One of the many reasons (perhaps the biggest) it upsets me to see anti-enlistment / anti-soldier propaganda is that it IS a resource heavily utilized by minorities and low income individuals and provides some EXCELLENT opportunities for paying for education, job training, and experience that they might not have access to otherwise. I'm all for protesting the war, but lets remember that not all of our brothers and sisters have the luxury.

Throw in a huge helping of it's the administration not the brave individuals who signed up to protect US who sent our sisters brothers and neighbors over there. We just gotta find a safe way to bring them home :)

I got a big problem with the "we're all poor, ignorant minorities" for enlisting. For one, it's not true. Take a look here, at Icasualties.org, and you'll see that most of the US war dead in Iraq are white. I was and am neither poor, nor stupid, and I served. Some of the brightest people I ever met were in the military (I served in a Marine artillery battalion fire control center, and you had to have a GT score (like an IQ score) over 105 for that job). That's a backhanded slur: "help all the poor, stupid people without any better prospects because they don't know any better". This current foolish war and current foolish administration notwithstanding, most, if not all of us who have served did so because we believe that there are genuine dangers in this world and that this country is something worth defending.

Oh, and good kissing and the military are not mutually exclusive. Some of the best kissing I ever got was with my gf, later wife, when I came back from float, so there!

Wow! Pointless. What the fuck policies are these people going to change? If nothing else, it makes Codepink look silly.

This is as classless as what some members of the military are doing.

This protest reminds me of the South Park episode where a Woodstock-like festival springs up to protest something and the kids are confused as to why everyone is wasting their time listening to music and not actually, you know, doing anything.

Adriana said all I wanted to say on the subject. And I'm sad to see that some people think young people aren't capable of making the right decision when they choose to join the military (or go to college or start working, etc.)

I too have to express a negative reaction to this photo. While I would love to live in a world where a military isn't necessary, that simply isn't the reality. And I'm not talking about Iraq. I don't think the US should be there at all.

This photo seems an insult not only to the servicemen and women who are in Iraq because they were ordered to be (albeit by President Fuckhead) and to people who we all know who are serving in the military all over the world. Yeah, I'm not exactly itching to enlist, and I wouldn't be terribly thrilled if someone I cared about did at this moment in our history, but come on. Saying "war is evil and I oppose it" is all well and good, but that doesn't erase it from the earth, and neither does a photo like that.

As a Latina woman, I would like to say, I DO think that minorities need defending. Poor people are not poor for no fucking reason or just because they have made that choice, there's a system in place to keep minorities economically oppressed and the military takes advantage of that. Should I include my last name in my username just so you realize what ethnicity I am, because you know, what color my skin is or what native tongue my mom speaks, that's TOTALLY fucking relevant in a discussion about the military preying on minorities.

Maybe this kid did express interest in the military, but he clearly said no to this guy and that is why the recruiter kept bothering him, because he gave him an answer he didn't want.

Of course people who are poor can make informed choices, but they can only do that if they are, first, informed. Maybe they don't realize that there are OTHER ways to pay for college. That there are loans and scholarships that don't include giving up your life and killing other brown skinned peoples. I can say that nobody told me what I needed to do to help get me to school, and a lot of the kids I work with feel the same way, they don't think college is for them, might as well sign up for the military, it's got good benefits.

And yeah, come OFF it. This "support the troops they are defending you" thing is bullshit and you need to fucking drop it. Nobody is defending anything for me. Are you not INFORMED of why we are in Iraq? Or really about the last four wars we have participated in? Because none of those have been about "saving my ass".

If you were really concerned about "saving my ass" or anyone else's you'd drop out of the military and support people not enlisting because we waste a ton of money on the military when we COULD be spending it on social programs and education to help poor Latinos so they don't have feel like the military is their only way to get out of the barrios.

Iraqis are dying in droves. You cannot compare the loss America has to the loss the Iraqis have experienced. Those aren't soldiers who signed up to get scholarships or medical care or just wanted to do something patriotic, those are civilians, they did not volunteer to put themselves in danger as every single American soldier did. So yeah, I think the Iraqis have it worse than Americans at this point. If we're going to do a 1:1 ratio here, sure, dying and suffering is awful on an individual level but really the ratio is more like 600,000:3,900.

Also,don't wave that "I am a hero in the military and so you owe me something" shit in front of my face because I am not a sheep who is afraid of having their patriotism questioned.

And, about the High School kid. Recruiters don't just randomly draw unsuspecting High school kids' names out of a hat. You have to express an interest in the military before any recruiter will contact you, and if you say a simple (and direct) "No thanks, not interested, I have your number", most recruiters will back off.
They have enough real leads to follow without having to chase around one kid. That would be a waste of money and resources.

Not so... I was hounded for almost two months at the end of high school (even though I was only 17) by the Navy, including recruiters who got my home phone number from the school and called me repeatedly, even after I told them I had no interest whatsoever. While this kid may have expressed an interest, that's not necessarily certain simply by the actions of the recruiter.

Actually, the above statement is not true. I was in the military and right before I got out, they offered me the recruiter job - it consists of hanging around school and talking up all kids about how "cool" the military is ...I just couldn't really conscienably do such a job ...

There is a whole art to recruiting kids, and the military has schools for these.

On that same notes, there have been a lot of controversies with recruiters and sexual assaults/relations with their underaged recruits. The whole system is fucked up.

When I got the opportunity to have dinner with Gloria Steinem last year, she made mention of that fact that, indeed, there is a draft, through poverty, lack of educational opportunity and the need for green cards. That kind of hit home the point for me.

Actually, the above statement is not true.

I hope you don't mean mine, because it wasn't a statement of opinion, it was a statement of fact from my personal history. If you're claiming that what I said wasn't true, then I need to get a restraining order on you, 'cause you've apparently been following me for the past ten years.

miranda,
wow, a lot going on there. How exactly would one "drop out" of the military and then go on to support not enlisting? You could go CO but that process takes a long time, one simply cannot "drop out".

As far as "wasting money" on the military, in what world do you live where a lot of money for the military is not needed? Sure we can argue over the amount but its never going to be small and hell, the military is a social program in many ways, not just for the training and education it provides servicepeople but the economic boon it provides to hundreds of towns across the country and the technological progress it makes/funds.

Its true, poor people are not poor for no fucking reason but what is this system keeping them down? Why doesnt it equally effect all groups? Hell, the hmongs are doing better than some other groups and they have a hell of a lot more issues than other groups. I agree the poor are disadvantaged and a lot of the militarys incentives are there to take advantage of that but if that wasn't the case, what you would get is a draft.

Iraqis are dying in droves...yep, yes they are. All driven by an idiotic move by an idiotic man but my question at the end of the day is.....so what? That might sound very harsh but since youre looking at the "military" and the "war" you must take a global viewpoint on things. Will the benefit outweigh the costs? Remains to be seen but it oculd very well be the case. Besides if you want to get into ratios, what exactly is the worth of one white woman? Ever seen the articles on that as far as media time? Its amazing.

Overall I understand your anger and as a veteran I also get annoyed at any kind of hero rhetoric but its only through my own limited understanding of the world that i question your understanding of geopolitical principles and the worth/advantage of the military. What exactly is your point? What solutions do you propose other than "drop out" or "fight the system"? what is your solution to issues in the Middle East, HOA, SE Asia, and so on if we have no viable military assets to use as part of a process? You would take 100billion from DoD and give it to who? At what provable gain? Bah, rhetoric sucks.

Thea - I was talking about the statement that says recruiters just leave you alone after you say no. Certainly not true.

As for following you, there's no need to worry. I get lost all the time, and not even those neat little map finder things help me. What are they called? You know? That stuff in your car?

Actually, the self-absorbed, infantile whiners of code stink will be the first ones the islamo-fascists execute should they succeed in imposition of their beloved sharia law upon the rest of the world. Fools never learn.

I think it is fair to value our military while asking if what our military is doing is valuable.

I think it is fair to support voluntary enlistment while asking how voluntary most enlistment is.

I think the rhetoric, hero-worship and strict mentality of the military is strikingly different than the intimacy of relationships. I think it's fair to ask the question if we are valuing one at the expense of the other.

This reminds me of the anti-war poster from the 60's that said, "Girls say yes to guys who say no" or something to that affect.

I will be the first to admit that I don't personally know all the recruiters out there. I was only speaking based on my own experiances. I have never met or heard of a recruiter that would waste his time on someone who wasn't interested in the military. That seems a bit stupid and pushy to me, but hey... there are stupid and pushy people everywhere you go.

MirandaJay, there is this thing called personal responsibility. You can't blame the system alone for all the poverty in this country. Nobody who joins the military has a gun to their head, and I don't believe that anyone in America wouldn't have access to information from both sides of the issue if they made even the tiniest effort to find it.
That been said, I very much agree that education/health funding is badly needed in poor areas, and I would be willing to pay much higher taxes to fund it if necessary.

I'm sorry my last name concerns you? I don't really know what to say to that... even if my last name wasn't present, my first name is a Latina name, and I specifically stated that I was Latina. I wasn't using it to make a point, it's just my name. To be honest, I wasn't even intending to use it, I just had the "use name when displaying comments" button checked in typekey. I'm really not a technological genious.

About the Iraqis, again let me restate my point. War sucks. For everyone. There is no reason that because more people die on one side, the suffering of the other side is somehow diminished. That's just asinine.

In reality, neither one of us is fully informed. You're naiive if you truly think you know what goes on over there, I certianly wouldn't presume to know the whole story myself. You and I only get small ammounts of information the media has prepackaged for us. If we saw the whole story, maybe things would be different. To answer your question, I am fully aware of the position of "your side" and the justification for it.

Just because you are not a sheep for the military, dosen't mean you are not a sheep for someone else's political agenda.

locomotivebreath1901: Holy shit. Let's not go crazy now, that's a tad extreme.

Really, I'm just tired of getting shit thrown at me and being called names while I'm in uniform. I am not a babykiller, or a walking political statement. I'm a person and I'm just trying to do my job.

ANTI-WAR: Fine
ANTI-TROOP: Go fuck yourself

That's kind of how I see it.

If I had someone to make out with, I would have gone. Maybe I should have started accepting applications a few weeks ago when the Code Pink email first went out.

What the hell do you think your job is? IT IS TO KILL PEOPLE. That is the point of the military.

I lived in a hugely military area for several years. The superhero complex of about 95% of soldiers I encountered along with the mindless worship by at least as high a percentage of everyone else was enough to cause near constant nausea and frustration. So I'm gonna go ahead and line up behind MirandaJay here.

It's a job. You signed up for it. At this point, there was already a war or a threat of war when most people enlisted, so I don't have any sympathy for the "war sucks" rhetoric. If you signed up after 9/11, you had to know there was going to be some kind of action. I might be able to squeeze out a little compassion if you enlisted pre-9/11, but I'm going to venture a guess and say that's not very many people outside of career soldiers and higher-ups. You know, the higher-ups that keep making all the bad decisions.

And yeah, I would say that the aggressor losing 4000 people versus the unjustifiably invaded country losing nearly 100,000 is uneven. No one said that the troops over there aren't suffering, but I would say having a country come around the world and killing your family and friends and destroying everything you own for no logical reason is worse. Even if there was a connection to 9/11 (and we all know there ISN'T), it's rather excessive to retaliate 30-fold in terms of body count.

I'm reading John Hersey's "Hiroshima" for a class, and it's pretty much destroying any shred of faith or respect I had for our military actions. We instantly killed 100,000 people in one city, then moved on to kill about 60,000 in another 3 days later when the probability of Japan surrendering was growing steadily. If that's not terroristic, I don't know what is. We're the only country on this planet to have ever used an atomic weapon on anyone. I am so ashamed of that I can't even put it into words. It was only 38 years before I was born, but now we treat it like ancient history. Ugh. It should be used as a warning not to behave like that in the future. And I haven't even gotten to the chapter where he goes back to see how the survivors were effected over the following years.

Sweet! I love this photo!

"As far as "wasting money" on the military, in what world do you live where a lot of money for the military is not needed?"

What tells me America is spending too much on military is that in 2005 America spent $421 billion on the military, 43% of what the world spends on military yearly (http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp#InContextUSMilitarySpendingVersusRestoftheWorld). And I found, "since 2001, the Administration will have raised defense spending by more than 40 percent and more than tripled funding for homeland security" (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2006/protecting.html).
Was America's military so bad before 2001?

"you must take a global viewpoint on things. Will the benefit outweigh the costs?"

I am trying to think of a war in which benefits outweighed costs. I really can't see that happening in Iraq.

Miranda, my best friend's partner has been in the Marines for several years now, and so far he hasn't killed a single person. Or been ordered to. Or been in a situation where he even might have had to. The fact that you think soldiers are just walking around looking for heads to blow off is, well, rather ignorant and childish. While this certainly doesn't apply to the Iraq War, part of a military's function is to defend. And I just bet that if Iran nuked us you'd be mighty glad for the support of the National Guard, who would keep whatever city you live in from becoming a complete war zone hell. How about grow up and get real. Your middle-school brand of righteous anger is getting a little annoying.

Miranda, my best friend's partner has been in the Marines for several years now, and so far he hasn't killed a single person. Or been ordered to. Or been in a situation where he even might have had to. The fact that you think soldiers are just walking around looking for heads to blow off is, well, rather ignorant and childish. While this certainly doesn't apply to the Iraq War, part of a military's function is to defend. And I just bet that if Iran nuked us you'd be mighty glad for the support of the National Guard, who would keep whatever city you live in from becoming a complete war zone hell. How about grow up and get real. Your middle-school brand of righteous anger is getting a little annoying.

"What the hell do you think your job is? IT IS TO KILL PEOPLE. That is the point of the military.

Posted by: MirandaJay [TypeKey Profile Page] | February 15, 2008 02:23 PM"

Wow. I can't believe people actually think this. I spend so much of my time defending anti-war opinion as not being anti-military and then I come here and get all kinds of tripe.

Gee, Miranda, I wonder what would happen if the U.S. military didn't exist. Everyone would just hang out and talk about their problems right? No one would hurt anyone else!

The U.S. military is responsible for the safety of the ENTIRE WORLD. There is currently no other tenable means of doing this. Sure, we should attempt to move toward a system where we don't shoulder such a burden, but there aren't too many likely candidates. Without the U.S. military, there would be exponentially more death in the world.

And seriously, you suck for being so disrespectful. It's one thing to be sick of Republicans using "the troops" as a shield against criticism. It's quite another to act like all American troops are murderers. Seriously, where do you get off? When have you risked your life? I'd seriously like to apologize for Adriana for your behavior here. Believe me when I say it doesn't reflect the opinions of most liberals or most anti-war people.

I was pretty surprised to see the "I'm a hero and save your life" tripe here so you aren't the only one shocked.

Will you listen to yourself? The US Military is responsible for the ENTIRE WORLD? This war is garbage. It's a crime. Anybody who enlisted in the military after we invaded Iraq is a war criminal as far as I'm concerned.

What do you guys think war is? Why do you think they have guns and tanks? Seriously, what the fuck do you think the point of a military is? What do you think the job of a soldier is? No really. Don't just say "defending our country" - how do you think they do that? Do you think they just wave guns around and that works?

Fine, whatever, I suck, I'm in middle school, I'm naive, disrespectful.

Next, remind me how the military dies for my right to have my opinions.

Sure, apologize for my behavior but first maybe you need to go re-read the posts. I was responding to something she wrote and was in no way angry, rude or disrespectful. Then she accused me of being patronizing minorities.

The military is a racist, sexist, classist, homophobic institution.

Most people who are anti war are not anti military. They support the troops! But I don't.

Miranda -

I agree that servicemembers don't really "defend" this country in the way that people talk about. Most idiots who claim this have no clue what the Constitution's role is or why nations go to war.

It almost bothers me that I've had people come up to me while eating lunch in uniform and offer to pay for it as a form of so-called "gratitude." It was a job for me, just like any other jobs, I didn't need anyone's handout or "thanks." If they knew that outside of uniform, I am a liberal Democrat, pro-choice feminists, they'd give me the finger. Even on campus, people automatically assumed that just because I wore the uniform, that I am some conservative, anti-gay fuckhead from Alabama. They express shock when they hear what I say.

The point is this: people are people - and you're grouping a whole group of people into one institution. That's not fair. Just as I've seen right-wing extremists in the military, I've also met a great deal of wonderful people.

There are a lot of assholes in the military - as you kind of implied - I live in Norfolk, where sailors think they're gods.

The purpose of the military isn't to kill - and how it's used depends on what foreign policy doctrines a world leader follows. Rather than thinking based on your opinions of the military and this war, take a step back and look at it from the point of a political scientist - you'd understand it much better.

One more thing, sorry to be on my soapbox - it's cold, so I refuse to go drink!

Anyway, if I might recommend a good documentary, it would be "the Ground Truth." I think it speaks volumes for both what Miranda and everyone else is trying to get across.

Marc

This is off topic from the original post, but since people were talking about recruiters, I thought I'd share my story. When I was a senior in HS, recruiters were there all the time. I never even approached their table, but one of the guys noticed me for some reason and began harassing me about joining up, questioning what I would do after HS and basically trying to make me feel like I was a bad person because I wouldn't even consider joining. Eventually, he got my home phone number from the school and started calling me, sometimes as late as 10 PM. He would tell my parents he was calling from the school in order to get me on the phone. I eventually had to be VERY rude about it because being nice was only getting me more harassment. I ended up having to go to the administration to get the guy taken off of our campus.