I have an Australian-born friend living here in the US and she says that she'll never go back if she can help it-- the sexism there is so oppressive and systemic.

Does that mean if I see someone walking around with a "Sex Causes Babies" t-shirt, I have all the right in the world to punch them in the face? I mean, it would be pretty fucking hard to stop myself.

Such: "I think that the everday person....finds it hard to understand how, if intercourse is underway someone can say 'stop the world I want you to get off' and how that is really a reasonable action that could result in someone being charged with rape."

Maybe I have more faith in people than Such does, but wouldn't most people agree that physical pain a "reasonable" reason someone would want to stip during intercourse? This isn't that complicated of a concept. Asshole.

yuk, stip=stop in my last post

I am an Australian living in San Francisco now. I was hoping today Feministing would post something on Paul Rudd's recent speech apologizing to the Aborigines about the "Stolen Generation." Instead you're quoting some knucklehead I never heard of.
OK. This guy is a douche. Moving on... BWrites mentions a friend who won't go back to Australia because it's so sexist. Well on the one hand I'll agree there is noticeable sexism in rural areas and with older people (esp. men). But the new generation is quite liberal. My male cousin is an engineer and his wife is a PhD and is not just the bigger earner but is thought by everyone to be smarter, more capable and more successful than her husband. Not that my cousin is a loser, I'm just saying modern men such as him don't think they're better than women. Modern men (especially educated ones) think everyone has the same potential.
Personally I plan on going back to Australia if I ever get around to marrying and having babies. I'd much rather raise children there than in the US (even in San Francisco).

If he walked in on his teen daughter with a boyfriend or girlfriend, would he expect the two to continue until orgasm? It's really unreasonable, after all, to expect them to just jump out of bed in the middle of sex because something unexpected happened. He should politely close the door and come back in about five minutes.

If he walked in on his teen daughter with a boyfriend or girlfriend, would he expect the two to continue until orgasm? It's really unreasonable, after all, to expect them to just jump out of bed in the middle of sex because something unexpected happened. He should politely close the door and come back in about five minutes.

Good one, Thomas.

ugh. This is just disgusting on so many levels.

That shirt was blatantly saying DON'T LEER. It was an insult! How is that a fucking invitation?

Obviously, people who think men just can't/shouldn't stop during intercourse don't care about women's bodily autonomy and integrity. Simple respect for another human being is enough reason to expect the man to stop. But have these people also never thought about the fact that sometimes it can start to hurt unexpectedly, as prietesssarah pointed out?

What the fuck is so sacred about a man's orgasm that it should be protected at the cost of women's wellbeing?

If a man and woman are having sex, and the woman starts telling him to stop, and get off of her, the guy would have to be a perverted, fucked up, sadistic rapist to not want to stop. I will never understand how people can consider it normal for a guy to not stop having sex with a woman who doesn't WANT to have sex with him.

If they can get off while someone else is terrified or in pain, then obviously something is wrong with HIM and I can understand why a woman would change her mind about fucking HIM.

It's too bad that he made the shirt issue into a rape apologist point, because I do have issues with those stupid shirts, but they in no way justify rape.

But seriously, many of them perpetuate rape culture as much as anything else, by promising sex for alcohol/goodies, and so on. That promotes the myth that women are goldiggers putting their vag out for rent, and the price is a martini or two.

Obv I don't think there is anything a woman could wear or not wear that would make it OK to rape or otherwise hurt her, but it's not just men who perpetuate the idea that they can earn a fuck with the right gestures -- women do it too, and I think those slogans are a clear example. So regarding his statement that those shirts undermine the message that sex is something to be negotiated mutually and lucidly, he has a point.

The rest of it is just a mess though.

When people make these comments it seems so ridiculous.

I can imagine a trial where the girl says, "I told him to stop and he didn't stop immediately" and the defense is- well, I didn't know what you were asking right away and it took 5-10 seconds or whatever. The guy could be lying or he could be telling the truh, but I can imagine a jury would take that under consideration in delivering a verdict.

But that's a totally different story from somehow claiming that once the sex act begins, consent cannot be withdrawn, as a blanket rule. So if someone agrees to have sex, does that mean that if you start hurting them you can just keep going as long as you like? You can come up with all sorts of horror cases to show why this is a ridiculous kind of rule to try and have.

I can imagine having a discussion about what the standards are for how quickly you should respond or what kind of obligation of expression of withdrawal of consent exists before something becomes rape, but it's pretty clear that the rule, "once sex begins, consent cannot be withdrawn", does not make sense under our modern appreciation of what constitutes rape.

There are so many holes in his logic that I'm afraid I might fall through. I wasn't aware most rapists took the time to read your t-shirt before violating you.

Also, clearly Such has seen, read, and remembered these t-shirts; yet, he probably hasn't raped anyone. It seems to me that the problem isn't t-shirts inviting rape, but rather the men who do see these are open invitations. But are we focusing on education? Nope.

If he could find me the case of just one time where a rapist chose his victim based solely on her choice in t-shirt, maybe I could listen to this guy without vomiting in my mouth a little.

"What the fuck is so sacred about a man's orgasm that it should be protected at the cost of women's wellbeing?"
Geek, I would fully support putting that on bumper stickers or something...that's such a good rebuttal to so many idiotic sexist points...

well, if orgasm is so sacred to Such, then i hope he makes sure his partner ALWAYS gets off before he finishes.

as for sexism in Australia... my friend who lived there for six months said that when guys approach you at a bar if you aren't interested you have to say "Fuck off." a milder rebuff will get you nowhere. and that is amongst the younger generation. i'm not saying sexism probably isn't just as bad in the US. maybe we should just start saying "Fuck off" when men can't take a basic rebuff.

my friend who lived there for six months said that when guys approach you at a bar if you aren't interested you have to say "Fuck off." a milder rebuff will get you nowhere.

Maybe things have changed since I was hanging out at the bars 10 or so years ago (I really, really hope so), but that was my experience here in the U.S., too. Being polite did nothing to deter most men (not all...most). Of course telling them to "Fuck Off" got me called all kinds of nasty names, but they generally left me alone. Sometimes, I would have to pull out the 'ole "I have a boyfriend" line. I hate that. I already said no, but it only counted if I was "taken" by another male.

The victim-blaming seems to be at a fever-pitch lately. It's sad and disgusting.

If you don't mind, Geek, I'd like to have:
"What the fuck is so sacred about a man's orgasm that it should be protected at the cost of women's wellbeing?"
put on a t-shirt! Suck on that, Such! (or would that be personally irresponsible of me and inviting him to rape me?)

I have an Australian-born friend living here in the US and she says that she'll never go back if she can help it-- the sexism there is so oppressive and systemic.

There are some major backwaters in Aussie but the Aussie's I've met have come across pretty much the same as NZers (only with issues about aborigines >:|)

Australia is more conservative than NZ, but not that much. Admittedly I tend to go to pubs rather than bars but I have NEVER been harassed. I mean drunken men try and introduce themselves but you smile until they go away... And they do.

NZ's had a female Prime Minister for 6 years and she's not the first. There are guys who are totally threatened by it but overall it's just not an issue.

We have sexism and patriachy issues here too, but I feel pretty confident in saying it's about a millionth of the shit going on in America

This guy is clearly an asshole and a misogynist. Not to mention an idiot.

However, I find it a bit disappointing that some people have taken this as representative of Australia in general. There is no doubt that there are sexist assholes in Australia, some of them in government. There is no doubt that some Australian guys need to be told forcefully to piss off before they do so. But these things aren’t evidence of systemic sexism and they certainly aren’t evidence that sexism is more systemic and oppressive in Australia than in the US. Admittedly, I’ve never been to the US (my first visit will be this March!) but I read feministing (which is very informative site) every day and I see a lot of evidence that sexism is just as rampant and oppressive there as it is here. There are some things that we do better and some things that you do better and some things that are just utter crap in both places.

It’s unwise to generalise from one news article about some random back-bencher in some random backwater. When the article in question is about some random sexist American, the comments seem to focus mainly on the issue at hand, rather than making blanket statements about America in general. Can we just focus on what this Australian idiot has said and why it is outrageous, rather than on the fact that he is Australian?

Oh. My. GOD. How do men like Such not understand that there are occasions where a girl is going to want a guy to stop? I am so SICK of all this "I was caught up in the moment and couldn't stop" bullshit. There have been plenty of occasions where my boyfriend and I are having sex and for some reason it hurts when we start - not ONCE has my boyfriend ever been unable to stop. The thought of me being in pain turns him off instantly anyway!

I feel really bad for any women Such has ever had sex with - God knows if they're ever having probs down there he's not gonna "stop the world" for them...

I have stopped intercourse with different partners on many occassions for a variety of reasons (physical pain, realizing I wasn't happy with the person and needed to resolve that first, and issues stemming from previous sexual assault) and NOT ONCE NOT ONCE NOT ONCE was it ever a problem or an issue. Not even close. As soon as I tense up it is "what's wrong, are you okay? should I stop?" and when I say yes they immediately do.

Maybe I've just had good luck to date super-evolved hyper-conscious feminist dudes, but really I think it's just called not being an asshole.

Thomas - Five minutes. lol.

"I will never understand how people can consider it normal for a guy to not stop having sex with a woman who doesn't WANT to have sex with him."

I will never deny many men are pigs. Same for young men in particular who claim "blue balls" before sex has started and demand relief.

Bob Such has just appeared on a crappy "current affairs" show in Australia trying to justify himself. Here's a link to an article. http://aca.syd.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=379752
He said the t-shirts don't justify rape, they just make an invitation. Someone else will have to explain the difference, because I don't get it.

Yeah... Bob Such is a moron that nobody takes seriously. But Pat Mickan, the new head of the SA Premier's women's council and a noted sports journo here, didn't come out in support of the Moron's comments - I'm not sure where you read that? Rather she publically opposed the comments.

Also:
And as for "provocative" t-shirts, maybe we should address the kind of culture we live in where these are acceptable rather than continue to place blame on women for existing.

Um... those shirts that you linked to wouldn't be acceptable in Australia.

It's a mistake to assume that Australia and the US are culturally homogenous, and an irritating one for many of us here. For one thing, we have compulsory voting here, which means that our political parties are largely more centrist than yours because they need to attract the swinging voter element and not the radical fringes who will always vote for their party anyway, and so generally we don't enact ideologically-driven laws attacking women in the same league as the abstinence-only stuff you have going on in the states (even though the previous government did generally skew more strongly to the right, you will note that even during that period artificial restrictions on the drug-classification of RU486 were removed). For another, we have strong anti-discrimination legislation which is systematically promoted in our schools and workplaces (particularly in the large public sector). As well, we have age-appropriate sex ed in all schools from primary school onwards, government funded health care and medicine, which means that the pill is very cheap and health care is not a matter of anxiety as it seems to be to most americans, and a secular history very different to the US's fundo Christian heritage. All in all, sexist nutters don't have as big a voice or influence in Australia, despite the best efforts of throw-backs like Bob Such and Tony Abbott and Wilson Tuckey.

Yeah... Bob Such is a moron that nobody takes seriously. But Pat Mickan, the new head of the SA Premier's women's council and a noted sports journo here, didn't come out in support of the Moron's comments - I'm not sure where you read that? Rather she publically opposed the comments.

Also:
And as for "provocative" t-shirts, maybe we should address the kind of culture we live in where these are acceptable rather than continue to place blame on women for existing.

Um... those shirts that you linked to wouldn't be acceptable in Australia.

It's a mistake to assume that Australia and the US are culturally homogenous, and an irritating one for many of us here. For one thing, we have compulsory voting here, which means that our political parties are largely more centrist than yours because they need to attract the swinging voter element and not the radical fringes who will always vote for their party anyway, and so generally we don't enact ideologically-driven laws attacking women in the same league as the abstinence-only stuff you have going on in the states (even though the previous government did generally skew more strongly to the right, you will note that even during that period artificial restrictions on the drug-classification of RU486 were removed). For another, we have strong anti-discrimination legislation which is systematically promoted in our schools and workplaces (particularly in the large public sector). As well, we have age-appropriate sex ed in all schools from primary school onwards, government funded health care and medicine, which means that the pill is very cheap and health care is not a matter of anxiety as it seems to be to most americans, and a secular history very different to the US's fundo Christian heritage. All in all, sexist nutters don't have as big a voice or influence in Australia, despite the best efforts of throw-backs like Bob Such and Tony Abbott and Wilson Tuckey.