I'm not surprised, but I'm sad and a little sick. Maybe this guy still could've been buried in the national cemetery, but full military honors?

No. No fucking way, not any day. While funerals may be for the benefit of the family, if one's decedent was convicted of violent crime (not accused, as that's a shady area, but convicted), the family should at least consider the feelings of the victim(s) and/or his/her/their family when planning the burial.

I'm not surprised either, and I find the fact that myself and no doubt others are not surprised by this is also disturbing. It's like the military is saying "hey you raped all these women, congratulations!" At least that's the message I'm hearing and it's totally Unacceptable. How can we change the culture so that rape is not rewarded in this way? (I'm a survivor, and it literally makes me sick in the pit of my stomach whenever I read about this stuff - in some instances I just have to close my eyes and stop reading)

By the way, sorry this is OT but could you guys see if you can get rid of that Circuit City ad at the top? I had to wait forever for a flying circuit city bag to move from blocking this article before I could even read it, ack.

I am also sickened but not surprised.

On the note of funeral misconduct, I inadvertently walked by Heath Ledger's funeral today and I couldn't believe how people were just stopped and gawking at it. It was like, OMG celebrities are going to walk in! People are in mourning here, it isn't the fucking Oscars. So tacky. A (young, talented) man is dead, this isn't a time for celebrity gazing.

Also OT, but that should probably read "Tucson, AZ."

Huh. Is it because he's a veteran, therefore he already served his time and "bought his ticket" to an honors burial? I don't know enough about this--I assume that if the rape happened when he was still in service he'd get a dishonorable discharge, and then not get honors, right...?

I'm another poster who is sickened, but not surprised. The military has an atrocious track record for dealing with the crime of rape. It still makes my skin crawl, though.

That's just fucking sad and pathetic of our government. I can't say anything new that anyone else has said, but I'll repeat that he did not deserve full military honors.

More evidence that our government does not care about women.

Sailorman:

That would be plausible if it weren't for the fact that murderers get that "ticket" cancelled already. There's no reason they couldn't extend that to serial rape.

they can extend that to serial rape and they probably will. its a sad thing but people have to realize, no matter what honors you achieve earlier in life, they can and should be erased by later heinous actions.

in this case the policy needs to be changed but I wonder where the line will be. mcveigh was mentioned but he killed a lot of people, just as this men committed a series of crimes. if a veteran is convicted of one rape or an assault should he not be able to receive full military honors? there are a lot of crimes under capital. as a veteran i would remove the honors from anyone convicted of any felony but it should be interesting to see where they go with this.

mentioning kosovo always makes me think of this paper, I'm not sure if its ok to link things in here and if its not just let me know. it sheds an interesting light on that topic. http://adamjones.freeservers.com/effacing.htm

I'm not keen on extending the revocations too far, but rape and/or murder seems like a damn good reason not to bury a person with full honors. I'm actually a bit pissed off that they only apply it against murderers if they were sentenced to life in prison or death. It seems to argue "oh, you killed someone, but you only got 25 years for it, not such a big deal!"

I'm not sure what the minimum crime should be that disqualifies a person. Rape and murder are obvious disqualifiers, but what about say, regular assault, like a bar fight or something? With as many people coming back with PTSD and not getting the proper treatment ("support the troops" = lip service), I know a lot of people have done things they're not completely responsible for. So how do we sort out, amongst the violent, which are unworthy?

I tend to think that as long as people who murder and rape aren't getting buried with honors, I'll feel much better. Bar-fighters can still get the big fancy funeral, so long as they don't drink with me.

It's really disturbing that they haven't even managed to make it so that all people convicted of murder are disbarred. I mean, at that point it seems like you're saying that prior military service doesn't just trump being a rapist, it's actually more important than almost everything you will ever do with the rest of your life, no matter how shitty.

This proves that we are still living in a male dominated society that does not seem to truly understand the horrors of rape or violence against women and girls.

The message been sent out here is that if a man is considered to be a hero or has a particular position in society then it is ok for him to rape women.

By honoring a rapist are we not telling men and boys that violence against women and girls can be justified?

"as a veteran i would remove the honors from anyone convicted of any felony"

It is important to note that even shoplifting can be a felony, however. Perhaps if it were limited to crimes of violence.

Clearly, policy needs to be revised. It is encouraging to read that members of Congress are acting on the basis of this case.

I do not know the specifics offhand for what kind of criminal behavior it would take for one to be barred from enlisting or to be dishonorably discharged, but things of that nature should be considered for later revoking rights, awards, or honors (or even eligibility for such as veterans' benefits). Even active service and awards shouldn't give someone a free ride.

During my rounds at the local Veterans Administration clinic, the psychiatrist told me that approximately 40% of all patients are being treated for some sort of psychiatric disorder. That is seriously a lot. PTSD is of course common, even in WWII or Korean War vets, but vets may have the same conditions as other civilians. Clearly, people need help to reduce crimes which are preventable, such as those related to poor anger management or substance abuse.

No excuses for this man, though.

Just another interesting thing to consider:
Sailorman mentioned that someone who committed rape/murder while in service would probably receive a dishonorable discharge, so not be buried with honor. If my understanding is correct, that's not true. The military does not have a stellar record of investigating in-service rape. Hell, (his does not at all apply to all, or even most military servicepeople) often it seems the military condones rape and murder "in the line of duty" (My Lai, anyone?). The powers that be need to seriously reexamine their views towards rape, at home and abroad, of servicepeople and of civilians.

We have to live with the laws of the land, and as of the laws now, Selby has a right to a military funeral. He served and got an honorable discharge. No law has revoked his right to that funeral.

Can Congress pass a law that bars future rapists from getting a funeral like they did with murderers - yes. But laws like this are not retroactive.

mathgoddess: There is a difference between the military not prosecuting rape while the rapist is in the service (just because) and the military not prosecuting rape while the rapist is in the service (because they don't know about it). If the victim never reports the crime - or the rapist cannot be found (for whatever reason), the rapist will get away with the crime. Is that the fault of the military and should we blame the military because this (unconvicted, uncharged) rapist got an honorable discharge?

vtcheme:
I realize "the military" is kind of a vague entity, but I do blame the culture of the organization that encourages women to keep quiet about rape for fear of retribution. Obviously, if the rapist cannot be found for whatever reason, that's a different story. I don't expect the military to be psychic. However, I do expect them to take in-service rape seriously and investigate accusations fully, rather than dismissing them or intimidating the victims.

I get why people are upset, but I have a bit of a different take. I don't think we should take away the full honors, military burial from anyone (McVeigh included, rapists included, etc.).

I think it would say something positive about our society if we could handle the discord there--the idea that no matter how awful someone behaves, they did their "service" to the country. It forces us to acknowledge that the past can't be changed. And maybe the fact that this guy did his military service and the fact that he went on to be violently anti-social aren't coincidences. We have a terrible track record of taking care of our veterans and I think the ceremony of giving the military burial to a criminal would be healthy reminder of how complicated this stuff really is. Besides, it's not like taking it away punishes the rapist--he's already dead. It's what it says us *US* that matters. And I think it says that we keep our word... No matter how despicable the person is that we give it to.

Now someone will reply--"But what it says about us is that we don't take rape seriously. We don't care about it as much as we care about military service." I get that, and I disagree. I think you can give someone a military burial and still acknowledge that the person you're giving it to was a monster. A monster who served in the military. And it's not like you have to pretend he was a saint when you bury him. Say, "Mr. X did horrible things in his life, and he was punished. We hope he regretted them," and then drop him in the grave with his 21 gun salute or whatever the hell they do. Just don't pretend that only upstanding citizens serve their country.

The only thing worse than a civilian rapist is a rapist in the military

If he did all that while he was in the military, he would have received a bad conduct discharge and not rated any military benefits in any way, shape, or form, especially a military burial. As far as I know, there is no tribunal in place to strip a veteran of benefits due to despicable, felonious crimes committed after he/she is discharged, but for cases like this there should be. I wonder if the funeral detail that buried him knows about his history? I would have gone to sick call that day were I on the detail.

When I was in the Marine Corps I knew a lot of people who slipped through the cracks and got away with some crazy shit. That made me come to the conclusion that those that serve should not be held in any higher regard than anyone else. The military is merely a cross-section of civilian society, with a "warrior-class" ethic built in. Thus, it can be expected that the military justice system is just as flawed as the civilian justice system.

This f*cker should not have had a military burial, but got one because he technically rated one. He slipped through the cracks like many rapists do in both justice systems. The problem, to me, isn't that this joker got a military burial with all the fixins, but that rape still isn't taken seriously in either military or civilian society.

"I think it would say something positive about our society if we could handle the discord there--the idea that no matter how awful someone behaves, they did their "service" to the country. It forces us to acknowledge that the past can't be changed."

No, it teaches people in privileged positions that they have a license. This man was convicted, and going to be sentenced for his crimes, but he still gets to be the hero.

As I said, an extremely high proportion of vets, and the same holds true nationwide, have serious problems, quite likely due to experiences in the service, and they deserve help, but it shouldn't be an excuse to escape penalties for crime. If this man had "only" become an alcoholic or drug addict, couldn't hold down a job, and had a temper; a changed man since experiencing the horrors of war, I might feel sympathetic. Not so a rapist who even attacked a child and slit a woman's throat.

Hooter 21--I disagree with you. In my view, simply because someone did something considered to be good earlier in their life does not mean that these actions override the evils they do later on. This man does not deserve to have an honorable death.

"In my view, simply because someone did something considered to be good earlier in their life does not mean that these actions override the evils they do later on."

I'm not saying that any evil is overridden. I'm saying that the evil and the service coexist, and we're just lying to ourselves if we say that because he ended up being a rapist, that somehow has an effect on his prior service.

And A Male: You say, "it shouldn't be an excuse to escape penalties for crime." It ISN'T an excuse to escape the penalties. The penalties exist in our criminal law, and he was subject to them. I still don't get how that has anything to do with his method of burial (which, again, happens to him AFTER he's dead, anyway).

"(which, again, happens to him AFTER he's dead, anyway)."

True, but the burial also sends a message to anyone who hears about it about the respect given to people in the military no matter what else they do.
Of course this is coming from someone who has never understood the importance of military and does not understand why countries want to increase military spending.

True, but the burial also sends a message to anyone who hears about it about the respect given to people in the military no matter what else they do.

I understand that it may feel troublesome to see a rapist and convicted murder getting a military funeral, but I believe that a person is not only a rapist, or a murder, a father or a military person.

I assume this person didn't get this type of funeral because he'd raped and murdered but despite of this fact.

I think it is important to remember that even criminals deserve to be treated like human beings and not just criminals.

(This comment would be much easier to write in Norwegian, puh!)

And A Male: You say, "it shouldn't be an excuse to escape penalties for crime." It ISN'T an excuse to escape the penalties. The penalties exist in our criminal law, and he was subject to them.

When I talk about vets and mental illness, as in my prior post, I'm referring to the estimated one in six vets coming home with mental problems, and the trouble some of them are finding themselves in, including crime. (I do not mean to promote the stereotype of vets as dangerous.) Be pretty sure that mention of their service or awards comes up during trial or sentencing. I wrote: "As I said, an extremely high proportion of vets, and the same holds true nationwide, have serious problems, quite likely due to experiences in the service, and they deserve help, but it shouldn't be an excuse to escape penalties for crime."

I was not talking about just this one guy Selby. I said about him in the same post, "This man was convicted, and going to be sentenced for his crimes, but he still gets to be the hero." I do mean the part he gets to play the hero with his burial with honors, and whatever service record and awards he had, in place.

I am more bothered by the inconsistency of the rules than by the idea of giving a rapist military honors. The fact that the army would not bury a murderer with honors, but will bury a serial rapist, speaks volumes. I believe the military should either bury all its veterans with honor, or exclude all violent felons.
And AnnaSoror, you're awesome.

"If the victim never reports the crime - or the rapist cannot be found (for whatever reason), the rapist will get away with the crime."

That happens out of the military as well, and is completely different can of worms.

The problem comes in when it is KNOWN that someone is a rapist and nothing is done about it. Which, like it or not, happens. It happens more than any of us would care to think about (in the military and the "real world").

And I know there will be cases where everyone knows someone committed a crime but it can't be proven or the evidence was obtained illegally, etc (hey, I watch CSI...haha), which is also a completely different scenario.

I think that rape should be included, but the military in general has to change it's view on these sorts of acts before anything is done about it. But this would be a good symbolic first act. It would show people that no, we aren't going to accept rape or look the other way. We see it's a heinous crime and will not stand for it. Even something this small could set the wheels in motion for an overhaul of the anti-female mentality that is so rampant.

Anecdote. I worked as a lifeguard at a residential pool on a base, and one of the things the supervisor (who was military even though the pool was run and staffed by a contractor) actually said was that we could kick women out if we thought their clothing was too revealing. In a pool. Apparently string bikini=slut. This was a rule I never enforced. No one else did either. I'm gonna guess the guys liked seeing string bikinis and the girls didn't give a crap.

vtcheme- The military has a record of knowing full well that their men are rapists and covering for them/refusing to punish. That is what she is talking about. Saying that they somehow "don't know" is apologist.

Cruella: Actually, I think everybody already gets your point.

I have not seen anybody suggest that he was getting buried with honors because he was a rapist. That would be absurd. I have not seen anybody suggest that it is necessary to ceremonially salute somebody at their funeral in order to treat them like a human being. That is also completely absurd.

We understand completely that he was a human who raped and murdered and that he got honors in spite of this.

However, we are saying he should not have because he was, in the end, a murdering rapist.

I guess we can't be surprised when they punish the service women who are rape victims. This is still disgusting. Let's not forget the throat-slashing mentioned above. What a fucking disgrace.

"Unless they commit the unforgiveable crime of being gay. (Remember how much respect the Repubs showed that gay veteran at their debate?) God, this is infuriating on so many levels."

SUCH a good point. The level of inconsistency here is, to me, perhaps even more disturbing than the actual act of giving this reprehensible man military honors.

I think in the case of rape it's even MORE important to condemn the crime-- imply because the military is so notorious for avoiding dealing with these issues when they arise. A message needs to be sent that they will not just look the other way while violent crimes are committed. Let's face it- the military loves to save themselves from looking bad. We see it every day. That needs to change.

Sure, the man served his country, but even when people do good things, their subsequent actions sometimes have the power to overshadow those things, and rightfully so. I can't think of any examples right now [perhaps someone else can], but I'm sure people lose other honors and privileges after the fact if they do heinous things in other circumstances?

Sure, the man served his country, but even when people do good things, their subsequent actions sometimes have the power to overshadow those thing...

How do we know his service was truly honorable? If he was a serial rapist as a civilian, it's highly likely that he attacked other service members.

Even barring that, how do we know that he ever put himself on the line and proved himself a self-sacrificing hero? To be completely frank, with the exception of soldiers who serve in real war (Desert Storm does not qualify.), most soldiers coast through their service and do their most difficult work in basic training, not on the field.

"Even barring that, how do we know that he ever put himself on the line and proved himself a self-sacrificing hero?"

This man is scum, and there have been thousands who raped while still serving, but it is important to note that a burial with full military honors is a right granted all eligible veterans by law, including Reservists and National Guard with active duty service, if the family requests it; not just those with exceptional service records, awards, or who die in the line of duty.

http://www.militaryfuneralhonors.osd.mil/

Which is why I appreciate members of Congress taking action on the basis of this one case.

Rape happens in the military at an alarming rate.
Rape in the military is NOT prosecuted in a way that shows that the military is serious about ending rape.
Rape is NOT dealt with in the military in a way that shows that the military is serious about womens rights.

Examples:
Suzanne Swift (Reported, ignored, punished)

Lavenna Johnson (reported, Murdered, coverup)

Tina Preist (reported, diagnosed, rapist not confined, suicide)

Maria Lauterbach (reported, ignored, murdered)

That man should NEVER have had a full burial.

Our military has a problem that it likes to ignore. I saw it time and time again while I was in. Its not like the civilian world does not have these same issues, but it becomes magnified in the military and it has a clear way of being addressed in the military, chain of command, but it remains ignored.