It's treating the symptoms, not the disease.

I don't think "segregation" is the appropriate term here. To me, segregation implies that women's choices are restricted. Now, it seems their options have expanded: they can choose to ride coed buses and risk being harassed, or they can choose the ladies-only buses. While neither of these are ideal, at least the women have a choice. In an ideal world, separation would never be necessary; women would not need to fear riding public buses. However, clearly this is not the case, and separation seems a better option than constant harassment. With any luck, the men of the city will realize that if they want the convenience of coed buses back, they better clean up their attitude. While separation may only be "treating the symptoms," it may help people diagnose the disease. Hopefully, it will only be temporary.

I don't think it's consistent with feminism. And as a male who does not want to be unfairly stereotyped as a "groper" merely because I was born male, I certainly don't like it, and I can't imagine it would be tolerated in the U.S. I also don't think women can have it both ways: they can't fight to break down the doors of segregation (with the help of men like me), then cherry pick certain public accommodations as "off limits" to the men. There are men who'd love to return to the days of separation, and I can assure you that if things like this were permitted to happen, it wouldn't just be the women who are keeping people out of places. We don't need to return to that. Dumb idea. Not consistent with feminism.

I'm on the fence.

If women are really being groped and harassed, it's good to give them a place to get away from it.

BUT.

That won't change the behavior of them men doing the groping. Something needs to be done about that as well.

Also, is this optional or required? I didn't see anywhere in the article that mentioned that. If it's optional, I'm cool with it. If it's required, I'm not. What if there are a man and woman who are traveling together? Husband and wife? Friends? Brother and sister? Etc. If a woman wants to ride with the men, she should be able to.

But I will echo the first post. It is treating the symptoms and not the disease.

Tim-
While I am not completely comfortable with the idea myself, I don't think men are being "stereotyped" as gropers. Women are reporting that nearly every time they get on the bus, someone harasses them. This is not stereotyping, this is experience. While undoubtedly not all men are responsible, clearly enough are that women all over the city are feeling the effects.
I do agree that separation should not be the immediate go-to solution; and I fervently hope this separation is temporary. Actually, I think a better solution would be if all the women carried pins around :). However, that would probably not be too helpful in a place with a serious problem of violence against women.

Having lived in Mexico, I would have taken the all female bus if I was traveling alone.

How about we keep Muslims off airplanes since statistically, Muslims are responsible for most of the terrorist acts in the U.S.? How about we keep blacks out of the mall, since statistically blacks are involved in more incidents of criminal activity?

The reason we know that sort of thinking is wrong is because it would unfairly stereotype the vast majority of blacks and Muslims who are law abiding citizens. The same logic applies to any law that would hold women back because of a perceived characteristic of females in general.

For males who would never grope a woman under any circumstances, this law is unfair, period. Just because this bus law "favors" women does not mean it is just or consistent with feminist ideals. Do you really want to open the door to separation -- there are men out there who'd love to go down that path again, but it wouldn't always favor women.

It's too much like segregation for me. I think a better, and more cost-efficient solution, is to have some sort of "security officer" riding on the busses for a perscribed amount of time - 6 months to 2 years or however long it takes. If men harass women, that's it. Get off the bus, right here. Do not pass go do not collect $200. It would be more cost efficient because then the buses wouldn't double in number, along with the drivers, instead there would just be the cost of the security officers, probably about the same as doubling the drivers. And it would treat the problem, not the symptoms. It would say, this harrasment is NOT TOLERATED and if you want to ride the bus, you had better behave.

Liza, it's my impression from the article that using the ladies' bus is optional for women and prohibited for men.

I liked the tidbit in there where the man got ridiculed for getting on the wrong bus. He got a taste of what I imagine women go through on a daily basis.

Its not a great comparison, but theres a nonprofit in New York City (and maybe other cities too) that offers a free late-night car service for women traveling home alone. I know it complicates things when gender difference becomes part of the institutional dialogue, but pragmatism is, like, better than harassment sometimes. I'm not sure I buy the last commenter's notion that it assumes that ALL men are gropers or whatever, just that there is, apparently, enough gender violence in Mexico City to make something like this necessary. The pink is pretty silly though.

mathgoddess, I agree with your pin idea -- I'd be OK with gropers getting a good kick to the balls. But it IS stereotyping to attribute a negative characteristic statistically associated with a class TO AN INDIVIDUAL -- it's prejudging. That is the epitome of stereotyping, and when it's applied to everyone in a class, it is unjust and immoral. And it's what we're fighting against here. Yes, blacks commit more crimes statistically -- does that mean we keep them out of places? Wow! I speak out about women being stereotyped all the time, every chance
I get, and I certainly am going to speak out if I am stereotyped merely because I had the misfortune to be born with a penis.

Its not a great comparison, but theres a nonprofit in New York City (and maybe other cities too) that offers a free late-night car service for women traveling home alone. I know it complicates things when gender difference becomes part of the institutional dialogue, but pragmatism is, like, better than harassment sometimes. I'm not sure I buy the last commenter's notion that it assumes that ALL men are gropers or whatever, just that there is, apparently, enough gender violence in Mexico City to make something like this necessary. The pink is pretty silly though.

Having lived in Mexico, I would have taken the all female bus if I was traveling alone.

I definitely prefer leah's solution over the current one. My only concern would be the objectivity of the security officers. This is only from personal experience, and I apologize if this statement is unfair, but the Mexican police forces have not been a bastion of fairness. I would really worry about security guards being biased against women who make these harassment claims.
Tim- I see your point, and I am definitely still uncomfortable with the solution, but it seems to me that SOMETHING had to be done. I think it shows a feminist spirit that these women complained and took action, even if their action may have been somewhat misguided. Again, I can only hope this solution is temporary.

I was going to say what a lot of folks have already said . . . that this is a short-term solution for a larger problem.

Like with any segregation strategy (like single-sex schools or other women-only spaces) even leaving aside the question of queer/intersex/trans people--which I think raise real issues about these arrangements--at most these spaces provide a way for dis-empowered groups to build solidarity and just have a space free from misogyny or racism.

But it doesn't do anything to help that dominant culture change it's mind. It just allows them/us to keep ignoring the problem, which is OUR responsibility to solve.

So I'm feel deep ambivalence about these solutions. I wouldn't want to deny any woman the chance for physical safety or protection from harassment in the short-term just because it's an incomplete solution.

One thing I usually think about is who is implementing the segregation--the group who wants the sheltered space (like these women in Mexico City), or the people in power who want them segregated (like the Jewish Orthodox community in Israel who wants women to sit in the back of the buses in their neighborhoods)? It seems like those deserve two different levels of critical scrutiny.

mathgoddess -- very well said. I agree. It sounds like there's a problem down there, and something needs to be done. That kind of shit should not be tolerated and maybe offenders ought to be made into examples.

Tim, I'm a little confused as to how you think men are being penalized in this situation. It's not as if they are not allowed to ride buses anymore. There are still buses available for men. They just can't ride that particular bus. But, as I read the article, men are still provided with public transportation that will take them to all the same places it used to. So how are men being harmed? And, to go along with that, is that harm (whatever it is) of greater importance than the harm done to women who are being sexually harrassed on buses? I mean, if we had to weigh one against the other, which would be the greater issue to you?

Having said all that, I hate the idea that we should even be discussing female-only buses or subway trains, or anything else. Women should not need this kind of protection from men. Nor should we feel so powerless or unimportant that women put up with actions from men that men would never put up with from each other. I don't know what the solution is, short of completely re-wiring society, but the whole issue is just depressing.

The misfortune of having been born with a penis, Tim? Way to deny your male privilege.
I don't separating the women from the men is going to effectively stop certain men's bad behavior, but what are the women supposed to do, Tim?
This does not unfairly target men; nothing's even changed for men. Except now they won't be as "entertained" on the bus.
It gives women another travel option because as things stand, they apparently can't go about their business without being sexually assaulted or touched.
I don't think it's the best message to send to the public (men are animals who can't help themselves and shouldn't have to) but it's ridiculous to suggest that this new option is anti-man.

Ethically, I can't approve. If I object to men-only facilities, even though their users are more comfortable without pesky women around, I have to accept that with a few exceptions, women's space should be integrated too.

However, I do see the appeal and the need to so something about riding conditions. If I can't have acceptable standards of behavior enforced on the regular busses, maybe the solution is to run a variant on women's busses. Anyone can ride them, but make them so blatantly "girly" that insecure male riders just get to feel really uncomfortable.

Wow, SarahMC! "This does not unfairly target men; nothing's even changed for men. Except now they won't be as 'entertained' on the bus." Holy shit! How dare you! Talk about stereotyping an entire class for what some have done! And you claim to espouse feminist values? That is disgraceful. Get it straight: To keep ALL men from riding a bus because of what a few men have done is unfairly stereotyping all men. And yes, men are harmed if they are not given the same choices women have, just as women would be. You owe the vast majority of men who would never dream of doing these sorts of things to women an apology.

Have to say I'm torn on this issue too. On the one hand it shows that issues of harrassment and women's complants are being listened too and some higher ups are wanting to take action. But on the other hand I'm hesitant that this will turn into the norm and thus that the underlying issues will continue to be largely ignored.

I agree with several of the posters that this is far from the ideal arrangement, which would be that everyone can take a bus, stay at a hotel or ride the subway (as well as any other possible activity) without feeling harassed. But as far as the actual implementation I have to admit that I like that there is something being done immediately for the women that need to ride the bus to work tomorrow and therefore don't have time to wait for society to compeltely change. Perhaps if there were something in these programs that stated that these were temporary measures, or that they were active as long as prevailing attitudes existed (I'm wording this poorly but I think the idea gets across). In that case the image of the pink-striped bus (ok, yuck) could at least serve as a visible reminder of the problems women still face in societies worldwide.

I'm also concerned about several of the points Jessica makes in her piece, particularly victim blaming. If the pink buses are the safe buses, it isn't too far of a stretch to think that women riding the normal buses are saying that they'd like to be felt up. To make this more effective it would be nice if there were added precautions to all the public transport- the idea expressed above about being able to kick offenders off being one.

Basically these seem like (unfortunately) necessary measures for the time being, and I'd like to see some sort of campaign that uses the separate cars, etc as a visibility strategy with the goal of permanent social change. What I don't like is the possibility that these are just accepted and turned into the normal way that women use public transport.

I don't owe anyone an apology, Tim. The men can still ride the bus! Nobody is stopping them from boarding the regular bus, just like nobody has ever stopped them from harassing female riders.

I am NOT stereotyping ANYONE! I am not talking about "all men, ever."

Why are you so unconcerned with the welfare of the women in that city?
What do you want bus drivers to do, ask each man who tries to board whether he's a chauvenist pig and then decide whether or not to grant them entrance based on their answers? If the non-asshole men in that city feel discriminated against somehow, maybe they should, I don't know - STAND UP FOR THEIR SISTERS and demand that the trouble-makers be stopped?

I think a better, and more cost-efficient solution, is to have some sort of "security officer" riding on the busses for a perscribed amount of time

Female security officers.

Tim, chill out. Your entire self-righteousness seems to be predicated on ignoring what the women who want this bus are going through on a daily basis, which means that in this context, the "vast majority" of men not only would dream of doing things like this, but do. Often. Men being kept out of women's safe spaces can in no way be compared to women being denied career advancement, education, etc. because men have appropriated all the goodies to themselves. Sarah is right--nothing really has changed for the men. Men and women who like to ride together because they're hanging out or whatever can still do so. The only difference is that men who like harass women on public transportation will have a harder time doing so.

This isn't my ideal solution, but I think you don't realize what it's like to walk around female; we need more places where we can relax from being hypervigilant and know that we're relatively safe.

I mean, really, "how dare you!"? Take a look at why women want these buses--that's how Sarah dares.

SarahMC- I think men do suffer from this. This particular system tells a non-harassing man "sorry, you have to take a later bus because your buddy over there grabbed a woman's ass." Tim was not complaining about a lack of entertainment. Either way, this shouldn't be turned into a battle of the sexes. Male privilege cannot be denied, but that doesn't mean they should be cut out of the equation. The trick will be somehow getting the message to the entire culture that women and men need to feel safe and comfortable around each other. Until that happens, though, I confess I regard the women's safety as a higher priority than men's convenience.

What worries me the most about this situation is that if it becomes the norm for the majority of females to ride the female-only bus what will happen to the situation on the coed bus. I'd be worried that the harrassment may intensify on the coed buses due to the attitude that these women who now choose to ride the bus are "asking for it".

What worries me the most about this situation is that if it becomes the norm for the majority of females to ride the female-only bus what will happen to the situation on the coed bus. I'd be worried that the harrassment may intensify on the coed buses due to the attitude that these women who now choose to ride the bus are "asking for it".

Tim -
I'm sorry you're being attacked by everyone here. I know that some feminists can sometimes seem unwelcoming to male allies (but that's a whole different conversation). From your comments it seems that you recognize the need to stop harassment on buses but question whether women-only buses is fair to men. I see your points and I do think it can be an inconvenience to men because it may decrease the number of buses that they are able to ride. I'd be pissed, too, if a bus came along and I had to wait for a later one because it was for men only.

On the other hand, I would feel comfortable if it were one car on a train, since whenever the train comes into the station, everyone can board, albeit in different cars. That to me does not discriminate against men.

Anyway, your point hasn't been lost on EVERYONE here...

Tim. As men, you and I can ride any public transportation in the world without fear of being physically or verbally assualted simply because we are men. Heck, I ride the busses and lightrail here in Minneapolis almost every day, I typically either sit there with a book or just kind of zone out, but nowhere in my mind do I think I might be groped. That state of mind, that mentality, isn't available to everyone, as evidenced by this topic- a lot of places women experience a sort of dread, or at least a necessity for being defensive before boarding a bus or subway.

In this program there is still a bus that men can ride free from worry of assualt, and now there is a bus that women can also use and have a similar sense of security. Ideally that would be the same bus, but clearly that wasn't working.

The fact that a second bus is required for this is unfortunate, and has some negative drawbacks. Yes, there are men complaining that they have a longer wait (at least than the women, I'm uncertain as to whether some of the previously coed busses will now be women only or if they kept the same number of busses available to the men and added additional busses for the women). There was also the unfortunate experience of the man that got on the wrong bus (I don't agree with the way they treated him, but the way it was presented I felt like it was more cathartic than vengeful).

The immediate concern here is for the welfare of the women. The fact that such measures are necessary is unfortunate, but the other prospect in this scenario is to force women into situations where they feel uncomfortable and threatened.

Oh god. MBP, "everyone here" is not attacking Tim. SOME of us are taking him to task for turning this situation, which is about women trying to escape harassment, into a story about how terrible it is to be a man. Say what?!

Like I said, I'd love to see the men who aren't harassers stand up to the men who harass.
*crickets*
Oh right. Bros before hos.

I live part-time in Mexico City and I think its great. The part of the conversation that may need to be added is that space in Mexico City is already segregated. In my experience it is generally considered unsafe for women to be out by themselves after dark, to get into taxis by themselves, to simply exist in some spaces. It is truly unfortunate that this is a reality, but it is a reality.

The advantage of having women's spaces like these buses is that it simply creates the idea that women have the right to not be harassed all the time. Once you realize that sexual harassment doesn't have to be a part of your morning commute, you are much more likely to call somebody out when they do harass you - like the women shaming the guy off the bus. These women are much more likely to then consider co-ed buses also as "their" space, not just masculine space. I see a lot more women on the subway calling men out for touching them since they implemented the women's cars during rush hour.

Something that Tim may not understand here is that unlike in the US, these buses come around every few minutes, sometimes several at a time. They are often crowded to the point that people are hanging out of the doorways. These buses aren't taking transportation away from anyone, they are adding space for everyone. Men are in no way disadvantaged by this development. I think it's great that you identify as a feminist, Tim, and I think the best way you can put that into action is by criticizing the non-feminist members of your sex and creating solidarity and listening to your feminist sisters.

Tim if you and men like you would take all that righteous indignation about being type cast and channel it into creating campaigns to reset the bar on bad male behavior (groping women on the bus, raping girls who are passed out drunk, objectifying women in general) then we would probably evolve to a society where women didn't need separate busses. Until MEN take the initiative to change the conversation from "she was asking for it" or "it's just boys being boys" things will only change legally, not culturally. Men need to get these messages from other men and they need to feel like pestering/assaulting/objectifying women is scummy and horrible. Just because YOU feel that way does not mean you are representative of all men. Not even close.

What worries me the most about this situation is that if it becomes the norm for the majority of females to ride the female-only bus what will happen to the situation on the coed bus. I'd be worried that the harrassment may intensify on the coed buses due to the attitude that these women who now choose to ride the bus are "asking for it".

Segregation diminishes and dehumanizes all of us, whether the targeted community is targeted because of gender, race, age, disability, religion, sexual orientation, economic status, etc. I agree that the only meaningful and longlasting way to stop the violence that is perpetrated on thousands of women every single day is to change what society is willing to accept. But that takes a very long time and women should not be asked to just put up with the violence until societal change happens. I think women-only buses are probably the least onerous, least unsatisfactory of all the stopgap measures that have been suggested.

In this program there is still a bus that men can ride free from worry of assualt, and now there is a bus that women can also use and have a similar sense of security. Ideally that would be the same bus, but clearly that wasn't working. - Peacenik

Exactly. Most men don't even recognize that this is a widespread problem that women face every single time they take the bus. Those that do, usually won't call it what it is:
male terrorism. Men have created a hostile environment for women in many public spaces, and this is just one instance of it. Some men speak out against it, but most don't. And it is WOMEN who have to live with the consequences.

Tim, have you ever been groped on a bus? Guess what happens when you alert the bus driver to the fact that you have just been assaulted - nothing. Sometimes they will laugh at you and say you're overreacting, and the groper laughs right along with them.

I actually like the idea of female security officers better than having separate, women-only buses. It would be a clear public acknowledgement that groping is a crime. It would also serve as a deterrent, and put the power back into the hands of women. Power which men STEAL from us every time they grope, and every time they look away when they see it happening.

i've ridden the subway in mexico city, and after doing that i would definitely say it's a good thing, however, i understand the fact that sex segregation is not going to solve much in the long term.

also, this may be a problem for those who live outside the gender binary. who is going to be enforcing the fact that the bus is only for women? what happens if a women is mistaken for a man and is forced off the bus? how will she have to prove that she has a right to be on the bus?

it seems a little odd to me that in some cases ideals are all important but in this case pragmatism has come to the fore.

i hope that these buses will help begin/contine the dialogue and lessen bad behavior but it will be a long term problem, this seems to be a short term solution. its simple i know but its not the same, on the surface women now have more options, the sad thing, as stated previously in this thread, is that they need them.

does this have any correlation to all the womens gyms or women only parts of gyms here in the states? how many more areas should there be a coed space and a female only space? (actual questions, not rhetorical, trying to learn)

as far as standing up to other men harassing or groping a woman on a bus, men should do something but when they do not its not always because they are in agreement with the action, it can also be for fear of the repurcussions of standing up.

derrp,
what exactly do you suggest men do in those situations?

If any significant percentage of the men in cities with female-only facilities were honestly "good" people, they would have helped women a long time ago to file lawsuits against gropers and get rid of the "bad" men.
If you don't help, you are part of the problem, (Tim!) and you can wait for the next goddam bus.
And yes, the women should help each other, but you know what, I bet they'd just be laughed off the bus together and slapped on the ass on the way. Maybe they thought the separate bus was the only thing they could do to help each other. Way to overpower women so that they're so scared of men they can't even ride a bus with them.

as far as standing up to other men harassing or groping a woman on a bus, men should do something but when they do not its not always because they are in agreement with the action, it can also be for fear of the repurcussions of standing up... what exactly do you suggest men do in those situations?

I suggest they follow their conscience instead of making decisions based on convenience. I also suggest that men realize that it's a big fucking problem, that it's overwhelmingly male perps and female victims here, and speak out again