This blatant hate and misogyny is outrageous. I went to a top-5 university and now work in a prestigious career in NYC and it never ceases to amaze me that how ignorant the people who are supposed to be the cream of the crop can be. At school and at my work I've often looked around and thought, 'this is really the best we've got?' Fucking pathetic.

And I think the paper's comparison to going in front of a cultural building with a racial slur is apt. As is going in front of a LGBT center with a sign saying "we love Yale faggots". And yet somehow nobody thinks it's fucked up when it is about women?

What a bunch of tools those guys are. If you want to be even more disgusted, read the comments under the actual article.

I hope The Women's Center still sues the fraternity. An apology that is not meant except as a ploy to save the fraternity's ass is not work accepting. I think that these idiots need to be taught a lesson that women are human beings and not sex objects to be harassed.

Heh, and I've always thought this shit only happens with "uneducated" men. I read some of those comments, apparently, some are claiming people of the Yale Women's Center don't understand "the law."

Everyone at Yale should be hanging their heads in shame, for this incident. If the lawsuit doesn't go through, I say Yale's president should be doing something about it, or I am going to assume that the faculties at Yale consist of a bunch of pricks.

Virago - what would you sue them for? Being assholes? Misogynists?

People on this site are frequently so quick to say people should be sued but what does that solve? Disciplinary action from the administration and from the national fraternity, coupled with disdain from the student body, would do more to change their behavior and mindsets. Imagine the outrage on campus if these kids were using racial epithets. If students had the same reaction to this, I think it'd nip this behavior in the bud.

You would sue them for harrassment, and you can sue for mental anguish in some cases. They plausibly made it impossible for many women to enter that day. On the Women's Center side they interrupted day to day business and are liable for that. Because it is a counseling center, the women would also have mental anguish grounds. More than that, it seems that they just want to send a message that this kind of bullshit isn't to be tolerated, not just within the softball hush-hush world of academic punishment but in the world at large.

Mental anguish?? Please. I'm sorry I find these men's actions absolutely disgusting but I don't think a crime was committed or they inflected mental anguish on anyone. People need to stop fucking suing everyone who insults or offends them.

Anyway, enough of the side rant (I have very strong feelings on the need for tort reform). That's not the point of the story.

While the actions of the group were indeed disgusting and insensitive, can I say I'm not surprised? Yale being a top tier school doesn't mean a damn thing when it comes to misogyny. I take this as proof of how deepy misogyny is embedded in our culture, and how most people do not even recognize it as such.

MyBabyPanda - suing is a perfectly acceptable response when the damage done warrants it. Lawsuits are one way to redress greivances and send a message that certain behavior is wrong.

For women seeking treatment for sexual assault, the behavior of the frat boys could be triggering. In addition, they were intentionally interfering in the women's ability to seek medical treatment.
This is potentially real psychological damage we're talking about, not just hurt feelings or inconvenience.

If the individuals or the women's center decide that the disciplinary action is sufficient, that's their choice. But often that's not enough.

What does a lawsuit solve? 1. It compensates victims for pain and suffering the way disciplinary action can't.
2. It sends a message that we as a society believe this behavior is wrong and will be punished.
3. It recognizes that this is more than a "prank" gone wrong, that it was a serious violation of another person's rights.

Among others.

This is sexual harassment and it fosters an unsafe environment for women. These type of things DO cause mental anguish.

It's in the title of the article here on Feministing. Sue for -harassment-. What they did qualifies as harassment and more.

The school can discipline them as it sees fit, but I highly doubt there are grounds for a lawsuit here.

Why is that? Who could possibly think it is not harassment to shout "Dick Dick Dick" in front of a rape and woman's counselling center? Are people so blind to the harassment of women? Why is the harassment of women frequently seen as a big joke and something people shouldn't take so seriously? It's harassment, and yes it is grounds for a lawsuit, easily.

kiuku--exactly. i don't know if it's a byproduct of our perceived litigious culture or what, but it seems like people so readily dismiss sexual harassment claims.

noname--sexual harassment is a cause of action and the supreme court has held that students harassing other students qualifies. if they are blocking the entrance to the place where women go for health and counseling concerns, especially related to rape and assault and basically accusing them of being sluts, then yeah, i'd say that's a pretty clear-cut hostile environment to me. they can't argue they were protesting or doing any sort of protected speech here.

“Mental anguish?? Please. I'm sorry I find these men's actions absolutely disgusting but I don't think a crime was committed or they inflected mental anguish on anyone. People need to stop fucking suing everyone who insults or offends them.�

I completely disagree. A crime does not need to be committed in order to have legitimate reasons to sue someone. Suing is the best, most civilized way to handle harassment. Especially for people whose mindsets are not going to be changed. A woman in the article stated that she was prevented from entering the center because 2 dozen men were chanting “Dick! Dick! Dick!� in front of the building at midnight.

That’s not harassment? That’s not threatening? You’ve got to be kidding me.

I doubt Bill O’Reilly’s mindset has changed at all since he had to be pay millions to make his sexual harassment lawsuit go away, but I would bet he doesn’t harass his employees anymore. Because when you can’t change somebody’s mindset, sometimes hitting them in the wallet is the only thing that will change their behavior.

Should Bill O’Reilly’s victim have just let it go? What other remedy would you suggest for her? What remedy exists for future women who may try to get into this center at Yale and face 2 dozen jeering, threatening jackasses? Not suing could almost be called irresponsible. It would open other women up to being further traumatized when they’re trying to seek help.

People like the ‘boys’ in this photo don’t care about disdain from the student body, they just don’t. They’re privileged and think it’s funny, and their mindset is going to be very difficult to change.

I do agree that disciplinary action from the administration would be effective – if it involved expulsion. Otherwise they will have simply gotten away with it.

Tuck this photo away in your long-term memory bank; I wouldn’t be surprised if one the idiots in it ends up trying to get confirmed by the Senate one day…and some alert staffer digs this up.

It's interesting that in the article, the e mail from the Women's Center was titled "This Time We Sue."

It suggests this wasn't the first incident, but the article doesn't clarify.

CCall - they'll just blame it on youthful indiscretion ...it always seems to work.

Why is the national organization the one apologizing and not these jackasses themselves?

That makes me absolutely sick. They should sue. I hope to god they win.

Wow, this is sick. I think the saddest part is that you would kind of expect this type of shit from frat boys. They are the epitome of misogyny in most college campuses. They try to claim "lapse of judgment", yet they immediately posted their pictures on facebook as a tribute to how funny or clever they thought they were. I hope these idiots get suspended from their school and forever banned from their daddies law firms. With jobs now checking the internet to figure out what kind of shenanigans their new employees were involved in, hopefully these character telling actions will forever haunt them in their future plans.

Y'know, I can kindof understand on some level how they thought this was funny. And if it were some kind of feminist sorority, I could probably see the joke and come up with some funny responses to their assholery.

But in front of a rape counseling center? SERIOUSLY? That's not funny. And for that I think they deserve to be sued.

Wow, this is sick. I think the saddest part is that you would kind of expect this type of shit from frat boys. They are the epitome of misogyny in most college campuses. They try to claim "lapse of judgment", yet they immediately posted their pictures on facebook as a tribute to how funny or clever they thought they were. I hope these idiots get suspended from their school and forever banned from their daddies law firms. With jobs now checking the internet to figure out what kind of shenanigans their new employees were involved in, hopefully these character telling actions will forever haunt them in their future plans.

ccall - I'm not against ALL lawsuits! Of COURSE Bill O'Reilly should have been sued. I would sue a company if I complained that a boss was asking me to take showers with him and they did nothing. I would not, however, sue a group of men who shouted "SLUT!" at me as I walked by. I mean, frankly, I'd be suing someone every week or so.

Anyway, the way this article was written it seemed like these men were chanting in the middle of the night after drinking themselves silly. NOT AN EXCUSE, but to me that's different than, like, barracading the door and intimidating someone trying to get in (abortion clinic protest style). If that is the case and a sexual assault survivor was intimidated or prohibited from entering, there could be a case. If they were chanting, disturbing passers by and insulting people, I don't think that's grounds to sue for mental anguish. Basically, I don't think I know enough about this to decide whether or a lawsuit is warranted, and I doubt other posters do either.

Based on what I know about fraternities, I wouldn't be shocked if some of the guys in the photo were the reason the women needed sexual assault counseling in the first place.

Shinobi--

Sorry but I don't know how it would seem funny, even in front of a sorority. Imagine if they were doing it in front of the LGBT with some derogatory sign against homosexuals, or in front of the Black Student Caucus building with a sign displaying racism. It's not funny, but because this mindset is deep seeded in our society it seems more acceptable to bash women, but watch out if what you say is racist or homophobic. We're all human beings and we need to all start treating each other like it. Especially at a prestigious college like Yale, those are the people that will run the businesses and make policies and laws and other important decisions in our country. They should know better.

kiuku - I think it would definitely be sexual harassment if they were doing it, like, during the day when people were in there getting counseling. Or yelling it at people going there to get counseling. My understanding of the story is they got shit faced and thought it'd be so hilarious to go take this picture and cause a ruckus. I'll have to reread the story to see if I misread something.

MyBabyPanda: The women's center is apparently open 24 hours or very late, because there was at least one woman trying to get there when this happened just before midnight.

The column by the women's center said the boys might have been drunk but that's the only reference to drinking I see. Plus, they didn't take down the picture when they woke up and realized what they'd done. They left it up until threatened with a law suit.

The picture itself contributes to creating a hostile environment and was apparently widely distributed. How safe do you think a college woman would feel after a rape going to a center that was clearly the target of a bunch of frat boys?

Chon,
I don't know, having spent a lot of time around privileged white men they often seem to think that "offensive" an "funny" are the same thing. Maybe it's because they don't understand what it is like to be a part of a group that isn't privileged? Or it is something about saying something you KNOW is offensive specifically because it is.

I do think the ONLY reason they wouldn't do this to a black fraternity or a gay organization is because they know they would get in HUGE trouble. I bet they'd think that was funny to. So, I'm glad the women's center is giving them huge trouble as well.

I'm not saying I think it is funny, I'm saying I can understand how THEY thought it was funny. I can picture the drunken conversation where they thought of the idea in my head. And in my head, they are all moronic assholes.

Lawsuits aside-- and as a public interest attorney, I'm all for the lawsuits, when appropriate-- there's something else I'd like to see as well. I would think that a little basic research would turn up some names to go along with the picture. Any Yale students here who'd like to do some digging? Any time a future employer or grad school admissions committee googles these asshats, this little episode should be the first thing that pops up. It's amazing to me that people haven't figured this out already: when you behave this badly in public, there's probably going to be a record of it... and it will follow you everywhere you go, forever.

“Sexual harassment is a cause of action and the supreme court has held that students harassing other students qualifies.� - Rileystclair

Very interesting. I was thinking of it in terms of unrelated groups in a public space (example: pro-lifers’ speech is protected outside of clinics). I did not realize that harassment laws extended to students (I tend to think of it as a only a workplace issue). Thanks for the correction.

Shinobi--

Why would they think they would get into HUGE trouble if they did it in front of a black fraternity or a gay organization but not in front of a womens crisis center? I'm saying it in fact is no less offensive. This lawsuit should hit them hard, and hopefully they will learn from it. The fact that they think that stuff is funny proves their lack of character.

There's another good reason to sue as well; university disciplinary hearings have a very limited scope. They're not going to expel these students--frat boys at Yale have too much money for that. I doubt they'd suspend them. University disciplinary hearings have very little power and are far more likely to be swayed by wealthy parents, influential alumni, etc. A civil court proceeding would not only have greater power to punish, but would, in my opinion, be more likely to use it. Also, it would be public--universities have a vested interest in smoothing over problems and embarrassments; their first priority can often be to make sure there is minimal publicity and to make the problem go away as quietly as possible. The public nature of court proceedings would make sure that didn't happen.

nonanme--i think that's probably how most people perceive the issue, but if you think about it, a university and a workplace can be similar in some key ways.

i am an attorney, but this is not my area of practice. i imagine that the particulars of mounting such a suit are more complicated than we imagine, but based on what i do know about this area of law and the facts of the case thus far, it's pretty silly to write it off as a groundless lawsuit at this point. hopefully the yale women's center has retained a good legal team.

EG--i think you're right. yale is going to want this to go away as quickly and quietly as possible and the sheer publicity of a court case could get ugly. i expect them to be ready to settle this.

The other major difference between what this frat did and what anti-choice protesters do is that college campuses are not public property or public grounds. While I do think that what anti-choice protesters do meets the definition for harrassment, having seen how they treat women going into clinics, they can and do make the case that sidewalks are available for anyone to use. College campuses are private property, however--universities can and do bar various people from coming onto campus--and so the frat has far less legal standing.

noname, from the courses I've had on women and the law, I think that this might actually fall under Title IX if the fraternity receives ANY funds from the university, meaning that this group could even sue Yale. Otherwise, yeah, this group definitely has grounds to sue for harassment and possibly property invasion, if this is not an officially recognized Yale group. I'm not a lawyer, though.

As a Yale grad student, I'll be sure not to let this go away quietly.

I hope they're all required to attend the numerous events the Women's Center is putting on for VDay, not to mention the other Women's Centers around campus - I'm a part of the Divinity School's Women's Center. We don't get as much misogyny as the Center downtown, but there's always enough to be pissed about.

Depending on the facts, the school itself may be at risk for incidents such as this. The U.S. Supreme Court held in Davis v. Monroe County (1999) that a private damages action could lie against a recipient of Title IX funding in cases of peer-on-peer harassment where the recipient acted with deliberate indifference to known acts of harassment in its programs or activities. Moreover, the Court concluded that such an action would lie only for harassment that was so severe, pervasive, and objectively offensive that it effectively barred the victim's access to an educational opportunity or benefit.

Tim = Win.

This story is absolutely ridiculous. It will never cease to amaze me how people who are theoretically so intelligent and upstanding can act like this. Disgusting.

As for the lawsuit, I saw GO FOR IT. As Tim posted above, SCOTUS has addressed similar issues in the past. If you have a right to press charges int his circumstance, why *shouldn't* you use that right? I don't really understand completely why people seem to have such issues with people suing each other. Usually it's not possible to just make up out of the blue reasons why you have a case, and I feel like it's far less frivolous than people imagine it to be. Seriously, if you want to avoid being sued, watch your freaking conduct.

Not to mention that using "hurt feelings" to describe those affected by this incident is beyond insensitive. It sort of reminds me of sexist rhetoric against women in general.

"My understanding of the story is they got shit faced and thought it'd be so hilarious to go take this picture and cause a ruckus."
That doesn't excuse their behavior in the least, or make it less valid to press charges against them. Being drunk is not an excuse to commit crimes, which they did.

It's SO unlikely that Yale will actually do anything like this, and because of that I'm really glad the Center is taking them on. Good for them! I hope the school pulls any funding they might be awarding this frat, and if they don't, I hope the women's center goes after the administration, too. There is no way to combat sexism and the mistreatment of women other than to send a clear and direct message to ALL OFFENDERS that the behavior is not okay and will not be tolerated under any circumstances.

They are threatening to sue the frat and the university. Is the university liable if this is an isolated incident? Wouldn't they have to show multiple examples of such harassment and a systematic lack of response from the university administration to this harassment?

LlesbianLlama - nice of you to cherry pick quotes from my post. Did you miss my other comments about how their behavior is disgusting? Like my first post saying that their behavior is hateful and misogynistic? Or how about when I said that being drunk is "not an excuse"?

Did you willfully ignore those because you disagreed with me about the merits of a lawsuit and wanted to discredit me, or just skim over them by accident?

noname- I don't think they need to prove systematic harassment to make their case, but I'm not sure. Even if they do, I suspect based on the title of the email, which is "This Time We Sue", that there has been more than one instance of this type of harassment, perhaps by the same group. Another poster above, a Yale student, mentioned that she is part of a different women's center at the school, and that they get misogynist jerks as well. If the University has given money to this Frat as part of college funds, I think they should revoke that money, and if they don't, I believe there are grounds for a lawsuit. I am not yet a lawyer, so I'm not sure about all the technicalities. The other thing is that the administration is likely not to do anything about the incident. It's how most college campuses are-- they don't want a big fuss, they just want to gloss it over.

The good news is that they DEFINITELY have grounds to sue the frat on a few different fronts. And the frat is possibly facing penalties from the national branch or something... which I also thought was marginally cool.

MyBabyPanda: "nice of you to cherry pick quotes from my post. Did you miss my other comments about how their behavior is disgusting? Like my first post saying that their behavior is hateful and misogynistic? Or how about when I said that being drunk is "not an excuse"?

Did you willfully ignore those because you disagreed with me about the merits of a lawsuit and wanted to discredit me, or just skim over them by accident?"

No, I read them all. I realize you think their behavior is disgusting, hateful, and misogynistic, and I know you don't think their being drunk is an excuse. I was just pointing out that there is ALSO a legal side, and describing why those things, in addition to being disgusting, hateful, and misogynistic, are also grounds for a lawsuit. Legally, whether they were drunk is not really relevant.

I'm sorry if you felt I was willfully ignoring anything you said. I definitely was NOT trying to discredit you. I don't attack my allies, even if I don't agree with them on some technicalities.
That particular bit stood out at me, and I didn't mean to imply it was the only comment you've made on this thread. We do disagree, I guess I just wanted to point out where we SPECIFICALLY disagreed [about whether a lawsuit was warranted] and give my rebuttal to what you said, which I addressed in a more complete way elsewhere in my post anyways. I'm sorry if you felt attacked for any reason.

Title IX requires recipients of federal funds through the U.S. Department of Education -- i.e., pretty much all school, colleges, and universities, including Yale -- from discriminating against any person on the basis of sex in the provision of access to any of the college’s programs or service. Since the Yale Women’s Center is undoubtedly a program or service offered by Yale, Yale University (as opposed to a fraternity or any other group associated with the University) has a strict obligation to ensure that women have nondiscriminatory access to the Women’s Center.

Under Title IX, not all gender-based harassment necessarily constitutes a discriminatory or hostile learning environment. The harassing behavior must be sufficiently severe, persistent, or pervasive so that a �reasonable� person (that is, a person of the same gender, background and circumstances of the person or persons who suffered the harassment) would feel her access to the university program were diminished. The misogynistic harassment by the frat a**holes definitely constitutes a sexually hostile learning environment.

However, since Title IX applies to universities and not to frats, it would be incumbent upon Yale to ensure the harassment stops, to mitigate damages caused by the harassment (e.g., private counseling, a public apology by the frats or some other personalized attention or service to the people who directly suffered the harassment), and to take affirmative steps to ensure that the harassment doesn’t happen again (requiring the frat scumbags to receive gender-sensitivity training or to perform appropriate community service work for the women’s center). If the frat has done this sort of thing before, more severe steps should be taken, up to and including withdrawing university recognition of the frat, with the resulting removal of privileges.

As Tim pointed out in a previous comment, the people who were harassed could sue and receive monetary damages from the university (not, unfortunately, from the frat) under Title IX, but only if Yale acted with “deliberate indifference� after it became aware of the hostile environment surrounding the Women’s Center. That is, if it knew about the harassment, but basically ignored the situation. In general, this is a tough legal threshold to meet.

If I were asked, I’d advise the Women’s Center and the people who suffered the hostile environment to first file a complaint with the Yale Title IX Compliance Officer (Yale almost certainly has one), and if that didn’t satisfactorily resolve the situation, to then file a complaint with the U.S. Department of Education. Both agencies would be obligated to investigate the complaint, free of charge to the complainant, and if they found Title IX had been violated, to remedy the violation.

LlesbianLlama - Got it, no worries! I definitely didn't mean to imply that being drunk excuses one's behaviors or should make them not accountable for their actions in criminal or civil court. My point was more that from the article it seemed they were causing a ruckus, not harassing students trying to get help. If there were students who weren't able to get the help they needed, that could be grounds for a suit.

I guess it just kind of grates my ears when someone's first reaction to disgusting behavior is "SUE THEM!" Clearly it is warranted in some cases, but I guess if I were on a jury I would have a hard time agreeing that they inflicted mental anguish, or what not (at least based on how the story is presented in this article). It seems more like misogynistic college hi jinx, which obviously should be taken seriously and should not be tolerated by the university, the fraternity or fellow students.

I first heard of this through IvyGateBlog (I won't link it, but it's easy to find) and the comments over there are, as usual, a little sickening. Particularly from some commenters purporting to be Yale students.

One interesting point raised over there, though, is this--apparently Yale doesn't have a traditional college relationship with its Greek system. (Can anybody here verify that? It makes sense, and Harvard is the same way--final clubs and the handful of lonely Greek houses aren't technically affiliated with the University.) As such, Yale can't take action against the chapter as a whole (say, by de-recognizing them--as apparently Dartmouth has done with its chapter of this same frat a handful of times over the past two decades).

the point at which college hijinks/causing a ruckus crosses the line to harassment is what i'm concerned about. we need more facts to be able to judge this incident (and any past incidents) accurately, but it does sound like there is at least a credible argument here for the women's center.

panda--there is definitely a perception that we as a nation are overly litigious, and while i will concede that some lawsuits are indeed frivolous and some individuals/entities ARE probably too quick to sue, i'll point out that nearly ALL situations that would give rise to a legal cause of action go unlitigated. it's important not to overlook that most of the time, most people don't take anyone to court over their grievances at all. it's a costly and cumbersome process, after all and the system is designed to weed out frivolous claims at the earliest possible time. the judicial system is by no means perfect, of course, but there are various points at which a court has the obligation to review whether a suit is remotely reasonable or not.

Jessica, I read Feministing regularly. I don't know what it was about this post in particular - but for whatever reason I had a gestalt moment where what you do just suddenly hit home for me. I have to back up, be honest and say that while I have ALWAYS looked forward to new posts, kind of like a fix? I also have felt a little guilty in the past, like, what does all this calling out accomplish? Is it just self-congratulatory? I know better though, why else is it feeling like a fix?? Some I NEED for my health. OK sorry to drag you through my growth process but I just want to share: I'm a young woman, out of college for a couple years now and starting to get into the thick of city politics. I think what happened today is I imagined how I would have felt if there were no blogs like Feministing and I had just come across that Yale News article (and those comments) on my own. It's maddening and genuinely frightening the way ignorance is so enabled by and given an audience on the internet - LUCKILY (and here's where my gestalt moment came) savvy, sharp, fun-loving and thoughtful women like you are making it your BUSINESS to raise y/our voices here (and beyond!). But not only that, as you are writing/linking/commenting you are also playing a CRITICAL role in helping me to identify and articulate a concrete, "real-world" community of feminists. We can't get anything done if we don't know who we are (on so many levels). I read media differently because of you, I even just listen differently because of my analysis training reading your blog - I'm much more savvy and much less likely to just accept what someone is trying to claim in a given moment (particularly about me). In some ways it's been as simple as learning to trust my instincts - having strong analysis to back up already existing instincts. THANK YOU for helping me to continue to hone my tools and for your invaluable work. Peace~~~

mybabypanda--i doubt they were given the opportunity to harass any clinic-visitors personally. any woman seeing/hearing a group like that down the street would likely not get close enough to risk it.

i know if it were me, and i've had cause to visit such places before, i'd be calling the fucking cops and running home to hide. i mean, would YOU trust a large drunken group of fratboys not to hurt you, when they've made their opinion of rape-survivors clear in that manner?

yes, the other means you mentioned would be more useful in teaching them a lesson.

but it would be foolish to rely on that to happen. and that's why you can sue for harassment and mental anguish.

“I definitely didn't mean to imply that being drunk excuses one's behaviors or should make them not accountable for their actions in criminal or civil court.� – MyBabyPanda

I have participated in some very contentious threads on this site where this unaccountability was asserted outright. I’m with you, though. Being drunk does not render people unaccountable for their actions; certainly not these assholes.

Long time reader, first time commenter.

I'm a Yale woman, class of 2010, and this horrifies but does not surprise me. The frat culture on campus is scary liek whoa.

Last spring, I was eating dinner in the dining hall with some male friends of mine and some friends of theirs whom I didn't know. Said group of friends were apparently members of a frat (not Zeta Psi, but there's no REAL difference), and they were recounting the story of how, for initiation, they had gone to stand outside the Women's Center and chanted "No means yes, maybe means yes, yes means anal" over and over.

Not thirty seconds later, one of them turned to me and said, "Hey, [Sparrow], you never come 'round our parties. You totally should! They're fun!"

I stared at him for a moment, then said coldly, "I'm sorry, you've just told me a story about how you think that rape is funny, and now you expect me to come to a party at your frat house? I need to go."

Things people have said to me in the last few days about the Zeta Psi stunt:

"But they were just saying that they like that Yale women are sexually promiscuous! That isn't offensive."

"It's no big deal. They do things like that all the time."

"You should take it as a compliment, [Sparrow]. They like you!"

I am honestly going to kill someone.

Another note -- Yale doesn't give any money to, or officially recognize, the frats, so they can't withdraw that as punishment. I still think they ought to punish Zeta Psi, though.

And one last question -- I got into an argument with someone last semester about alcohol, responsibility, and date rape. Namely, if we hold people responsible for things they do even when they're drunk (drunk driving, this, etc.) as though they had decided to do it sober, my interlocutor was claiming that it's inconsistent not to hold women responsible for their sexual choices while drunk, and that as long as the guy hadn't gotten the woman drunk in order to get her to have sex with him, and especially if he was drunk too, calling it rape because she was incapable of consent is wrong. I couldn't come up with a good argument against this, though it rubs me the wrong way; any suggestions?

OMG, boo how dare they besmirch Rory Gilmore's alma mater.

Lesbia's Sparrow -- Regarding the "incapable of giving consent" hypothetical you posited, my response is, violence and/or a crime occurs when anyone's body is touched beyond incidental contact or for more than a brief instant unless the person being touched affirmatively gives permission for such contact. It is not the "responsibility" of the person being touched to give permission. It is the responsibility of the person doing the touching to ensure that the other person has voluntarily given permission. If the other person is "incapable" of giving permission, for whatever reason, that means no permission has been given, and a crime has been comitted.

crshark,
your response to sparrows question seems to assume the male as the "toucher". the person being touched affirmatively could be the initiator or it could very well be mutual no?

Hmm, the drunk situation is tricky I think because people will do things when they're drunk that they wouldn't otherwise but I don't think something is rape (or isn't rape) just because you wouldn't do it when you're sober. If you didn't want it at the time, then it's rape. I agree with all crshark said.
I'm skeptical of the idea that drunk people are completely unable to give consent. It might be harder for them to say no so as always the person who wants to initiate sex should be very cautious and yes, make sure the other person gives permission.

Related to this, I met an encouraging guy the other day. We ended up talking about sex-ed in Sweden which sounds very progressive. Also, he told me if he wants to have sex with someone random, he will make the slightest move on a woman and do no more unless she responds favorably. He is very careful. It was so refreshing to meet a guy who seemed to understand the impact of rape on a woman.

I don't think all drunken sex is rape so I can't quite agree with the idea that you are unable to give consent whilst drunk.

However I think emphasising a responsibility to get positive definate affirmation from your partner before and during sex is very important. It should be a big part of sex education as alluded to by lyndorr.

And I too am disappointed to see anyone besmirching the name of Rory Gilmore's alma mater.

Wouldn't they have to show multiple examples of such harassment and a systematic lack of response from the university administration to this harassment?

I'm usually embarrassed when I admit it, but I go to Yale. Four of the shittiest years of my life are about to be over. Stuff like this happens all the time. By "this time," they mean that when people pull these kinds of "pranks" (writing the n-word outside where the mostly black dining hall staff takes smoke breaks, witty stuff like that), the administration does absolutely nothing. The best we can get out of them is an email encouraging us to "tolerate" each other.

To be fair, the Women's Center does offer peer counseling to assault victims, but it's not quite a rape crisis center. The problem is, up until the second half of last school year, we had no consolidated rape crisis center or counseling center, so students just started doing it themselves. The Women's Center is mostly a hang-out space that hosts events, discussions, movies, etc.; nothing really radical or in-your-face. But just because it exists in a little hole in the wall space, it gets this reputation with the frat party crowd as ravenous ball-breaking feminists (I wish!)

I'm surprised by how many commentators expressed shock that Yale students would be so misogynistic. And insinuated that they expected this kind of behavior from 'uneducated' men but not men from Yale.

Let's not be so classist here, fellow commentators. Misogyny exists at every level in our society, and education level has just about nothing to do with it. Plenty of men who never had the chance to go to college would NEVER behave this way. Thank god.

If I were at Yale, it would take everything I had not to throw eggs at these young gentlemen. I'm sure Yale COULD afford to throw them out...they're not the only wealthy students at the school and I suspect some of its primary contributors are appalled at this behavior too. It'd send a strong message...

Disappointing to see that it's not possible for Yale to pull the frat's funding. That would have been awesome.

Would it then be possible for the university to take action against each individual involved as a STUDENT? That might sound like a silly question, but I don't really know the ins and outs of Yale's specific "rules" for the student body or how issues like this are dealt with. I suspect they're handled like similar issues at other schools-- ignored and swept under the rug to avoid looking bad.

It sounds like they have a decent shot at harassment and other charges, though; I wholeheartedly hope they pursue them to the fullest extent possible.

To the Yale women to posted in this thread: I'm really heartbroken to hear your stories about what happens on your campus on a regular basis. I know it's a bad situation at MANY schools around the country [and abroad as well], but it's still so disturbing to hear first-hand. I hope you awesome women will not sit silently and let this pass without speaking up. You sound like real fighters, and you probably have no idea how much I appreciate that sort of solidarity. :)

dirtybug: I suspect you're right. It would make them look better to take action, and I bet they *can* afford it. I guess it depends on the strings available for the relatives and friends of these young men to pull in their favor. There seems to be a lot of that.

idyllicmollusk

I think you make a good point about how pervasive misogyny is. I guess I am still perhaps dismayed (rather than shocked) that education doesn't mean people learn anything at all sometimes. I don't think a person is lesser because they didn't get the chance to go to university but I do wish I lived in a world were everyone who wanted to could. So I hope I'm not sounding or being classist.

I think so highly of education. I think it has such power to change attitudes and raise awareness if used properly. It also does seem to promote more liberal thinking - meaning there is a more liberal outlook on uni campuses in general than in the community in general. That has been my impression anyway. What does everyone else think? Or is sexism something that this doesn't even apply to (you can obviously be liberal and sexist)?

Not sure quite what my point it. Just rambling trying to work out why it is more surprising to me to find this sort of behavior in the hallowed halls of Yale.

To MyBabyPanda and other critics of filing a suit: we can argue, but why not just allow the center or any other offended parties to file suit, and allow a *judge* to decide whether or not this is worth hearing? Wouldn't that be the surest legal way of knowing instead of this speculation?

I am also in favor of tort reform and a reduction in frivolous lawsuits, but I am not in a position to say what qualifies.

"I guess if I were on a jury I would have a hard time agreeing that they inflicted mental anguish, or what not (at least based on how the story is presented in this article)."

I agree with other posters who suggest the most fitting punishment for this sort of behavior is to be identified and suffer ongoing shame, as when finding girlfriends, job hunting or seeking positions of responsibility, which will be more serious than suffering financial loss or being denied a part in the greek fraternity system. This is no "accusation," where one would need to be concerned with their rights. They were stupid enough to record themselves doing it, and to play to the camera. Let prospective girlfriends or employers decide if this "momentary lapse" is relevant or not.

LlesbianLlama -- that's actually a really good point. Yale frowns on bad publicity generally, and if this thing is hitting the feminist blogosphere it's only a matter of time before it gets big (I hope), which may push them into punishing the Zeta Psi thing to keep the Women's Center from suing and thus accruing scandal to the name of our exalted institution.

The thing that boggles my mind is how many men just don't get it. This is threatening! Frat boys being assholes is threatening! The only people who Get It are either very far left (because even the generic left-leaning college guy has a lot of sexism) or very far right ("you don't talk about women that way"). Frankly, as long as women are the Other, if I'm either going to be regarded as a lady who needs to be protected and guarded by chivalrous gentlemen, or a slut who's just there to be fucked, I'll take the former.

Another alumna chiming in here. God, this event is completely disgusting and completely unsurprising, as is the general response to it from Levin's administration and the frat boy apologists all over the YDN article's comments.

Lesbia's Sparrow--I completely agree about Yale being sensitive to bad press, and pushing this event to the national media's awareness (although sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to stick with fluff issues like Calhoun's shower sex and ignore this one). If you want to contact the President's Office directly, here's their contact information. I'm calling tomorrow to let them know that they're not getting any donations from me until the administration steps up and condemns the misogyny on campus and makes it plain that it has no place.

The YWC is collecting advice, support, and testimony of past sexual harassment at yalewomenscenter@gmail.com.

An update from IvyGateBlog (don't ask me why I keep reading--it's like watching a train wreck): several commenters suggest that the chanting was actually "DKE, DKE, DKE" (which is apparently pronounced "deek"), a rival frat--a (failed) strategy to keep them from being recognized.

Which doesn't change anything, of course. The rest of the commenting is typical--"Women can choose to act like sluts! Isn't feminism all about choice?"

Yes and the sign actually said "we love ice skating" and some evil Feminist photoshopped it to say "sluts"

citymaking, thank you so much! your comment totally made my day...my year!

i'd like to add that i am not REMOTELY surprised that this happened at yale. yale is like, the epitome of east-coast-privilege-old-boys'-club bullshit. not to disparage the school or the smart people who worked very hard to get in there and get a first-class education, but remember--our president coasted through with Cs. at any prestigious school, especially one with a fucking skull and bones chapter, there are going to inevitably be a certain number of students let in for reasons other than merit.

also, frat culture is probably the most backward and misogynistic aspect of american colleges today. completely unsurprising.

2 things:

1. That this happens at Yale does not suprise me a bit. I grew up in a little hick town and faced less sexual stereotyping than when I moved to the bastion of liberal thinking where I now live. Not to say it wasn't present, but it seems that Midwestern farmers grow a different (and somehow less repulsive) strain of sexual discrimination than Midwestern intellectuals.

2. On the use of the word slut--I came across this reaction on a blog I usually love: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005340.html

My reaction/question: Since when is slut not a highly emotionally charged put down? And just because someone's a loser (the author of the post dismisses the "prank" as "fantasizing"), their actions shouldn't be punished? Huh?

A thought: I know that there are some posters here who are alumnae, and you might want to contact other alumni and speak to Yale's department of alumni affairs. Nothing scares a university faster than the prospect of alumni donations drying up...

Oh, and for current undergrads, calls from parents can have a similar effect.

As a Yale Feminist I feel the responsibility to make a few corrections for posterity.

The Women's Center is staffed by students, not mental health professionals. It does NOT provide counseling to survivors of assault and rape in emergencies. The Women's Center refers people in need to services such as S.H.A.R.E. http://www.yale.edu/yalecollege/students/services/harassment/share.html and local hospitals and shelters.

Although it is not a counseling service it is critical to maintain the Women's Center as a safe space and make sure women are not harassed or intimidated when entering. To some it may be just boys playing a joke. To many people on campus, including women, frat brothers are not scary. But imagine if you had just been attacked and were looking for help, only to find a bunch of jeering people on the doorstep where you are looking for help or a friendly supporter. Also some of the people who come to the Women's Center seeking help are not only "privileged Yale women" but New Haven residents who walk by and notice it. It is the only "Women's Center" with a noticeable presence in the downtown area. Yes it is intended for Yalies, but will help all who come in find the resource they need. I hope that if anyone involved in the incident read this, or anyone who thinks it's not a big deal, that they will think about all of this.

The Center is a safe space for women on campus staffed by supportive people who are there to advocate for women. It refers people to services, participates in social and political activism, organizes and hosts events and discussions, and addresses administration and media when there are problems. But, it does not provide counseling, clinic services, etc.

As a Yale Feminist I feel the responsibility to make a few corrections for posterity.

The Women's Center is staffed by students, not mental health professionals. It does NOT provide counseling to survivors of assault and rape in emergencies. The Women's Center refers people in need to services such as S.H.A.R.E. http://www.yale.edu/yalecollege/students/services/harassment/share.html and local hospitals and shelters.

Although it is not a counseling service it is critical to maintain the Women's Center as a safe space and make sure women are not harassed or intimidated when entering. To some it may be just boys playing a joke. To many people on campus, including women, frat brothers are not scary. But imagine if you had just been attacked and were looking for help, only to find a bunch of jeering people on the doorstep where you are looking for help or a friendly supporter. Also some of the people who come to the Women's Center seeking help are not only "privileged Yale women" but New Haven residents who walk by and notice it. It is the only "Women's Center" with a noticeable presence in the downtown area. Yes it is intended for Yalies, but will help all who come in find the resource they need. I hope that if anyone involved in the incident read this, or anyone who thinks it's not a big deal, that they will think about all of this.

The Center is a safe space for women on campus staffed by supportive people who are there to advocate for women. It refers people to services, participates in social and political activism, organizes and hosts events and discussions, and addresses administration and media when there are problems. But, it does not provide counseling, clinic services, etc.