All a diversion so that Obama can quickly figure out how to be more substantive and Hillary can strategize on how to be more likeable.

Why don't they just call a time out instead?

oh so agreed. le sigh.

"Hillary Rodham Clinton's camp has perceived sexism in comments about her appearance and emotions."

again with the "perceived sexism"

thankfully, obama is also calling for people to cut it out. i found his remarks in reno today really positive and quite inspiring.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/14/obama-tries-to-stop-the-silliness/index.html?hp

What I find repulsive is that people are using an event at my best friend's alma mater -- the all-female Columbia College here in SC -- to actually beat up on Sen. Clinton. The even happened on Sunday and BET mogul Bob Johnson was the speaker.

I find it disturbing that the only two things I've learnt from what I've seen of the campaigns are that Obama is black and Hillary is a woman. Oh and the fact that the media is utterly obsessed with these facts. Even though I'm not an American, its frightening that the 'leader of the free world' will be chosen with such little commentary on the way they wish to run things.

Hello. I wasn't sure where I could ask this question, so I just thought Id put it here. Why should I be a feminist? See, Im not sure if I should be one, or if I shouldn't. Im just inquiring, thanks! :D

One should be a feminist because supporting and enacting equal rights will improve life for both men and women. (As someone who does not consider himself a "feminist," I would prefer to be a humanist.)

Example: a housewife who stays home to raise her small children will not be penalized for her gender or lifestyle if she would like to enter/reenter the workplace, substantially increasing household income, and also allowing her partner more time to participate in domestic and childrearing duties because of less dependence on one breadwinner's income.

As a man, I would consider my wife's increased earning power to be a blessing. My wife also wants me to be more present in our children's lives. As a male nurse, I would easily be able to do this by transferring from shift work in the hospital to all M-F days in a clinic and declining overtime, if we no longer needed the money. Equal rights and opportunities would allow us to have more choices in the way to live our lives.

What do you see as preventing you from being a feminist?

I also wish the focus of the campaign and criticisms were based more on policy and qualifications than superficial qualities such as race, gender or $400 haircuts. I do not have any interest in the story's mention that Obama tried drugs as a youth (probably as a student in Hawaii). Whoo hoo. Thankfully, I am not hearing much of anything about religious beliefs in the Democratic race, and don't care, if the winning candidates can perform their duty to lead the nation and impartially uphold the Constitution.

Well, thanks A Male. See whats stopping me, is the term itself. Feminism implies that females are the greatest element of the movement.

I prefer to label myself an egalitarian.

A male, it's ironic that you gave House Wife her answer while admitting that you yourself don't consider yourself a feminist.

If the term itself bothers you, House Wife, consider the fact that the fight for gender equality began as a fight to elevate the status of women in society. That is a fact. The focus was on women because women were considered, and treated as, second class citizens. And in many ways we still are.
Men benefit from feminism too, but the term itself is valid because it was women, not men, who have always been seen and treated as inferior.

But while men benefit, they also stand to lose the unearned privileges they have under patriarchy. For that reason, many men oppose feminism.
But men who value universal human rights and women's liberation are willing to give up their unearned privileges for the sake of true equality.

The struggle continues today, and the term "feminism" is just as valid.

I suggest reading some actual feminist texts to get a feel for what the movement is all about.

I know a few of the Feministing ladies have reading list suggestions somewhere around here!

Well, women, if they were held back, are substantially less today. Wouldnt you agree? Men are being held back to. There is a reason male suicide is higher then females. There is a reason that boys are doing worse in school then girls, perhaps its about time, the label is dropped, and females as the greatest element is removed. That way its not sexist, and it fights and supports PEOPLES rights.

House Wife:
When 50% (instead of 16%) of the Congress is represented by women; when we've had 43 women presidents; when women earn $1.00 for every dollar a man makes; when rape has been eliminated; when a woman can do her job without being harassed as though she's an object; when women want to be housewifes only of their own free will instead of religious intdotrination -- then we will re-consider your request to drop the label.

In the meantime, perhaps it's a good idea for the many housewives out there who care so much about the state of boys to run for Congress and pass legislation to reform our education system among other things. Because the 74% majority of men sure aren't doing it.

House Wife, I suggest you go to this blog to read up before you comment further here. Thanks.

typo...84% majority of men

You know, one can fight for women's/girls' issues AND men's/boys' issues at the same time.

It's pretty unproductive to say, "Well, boys have issues too so it's wrong to be a feminist."

Many of the issues boys and men face are the result of a patriarchal society. In fact, feminism helps to solve women's issues AND many men's issues. Would men be able to be stay-at-home dads if not for feminism? Feminism frees all people from the chains of rigid gender roles. That means men AND women.

Just because women have made gains doesn't mean it's time to stop now. Just read this website for a week and you'll see all the various ways in which women and girls are held back just for being female.

"When 50% (instead of 16%) of the Congress is represented by women;"

Um really, does it matter? As long as the people in charge are qualified, who cares what gender they are. The most competent people should end up there. What your saying that even if there are more qualified males that less qualified females should get first preference...cause they are under represented?

"when we've had 43 women presidents;"

Refer to above

when women earn $1.00 for every dollar a man makes;

I'm pretty sure we do dear, we just typically work less hours..which equals less pay.

"when rape has been eliminated;" Thats not just a problem for women yet again sweetie..its a problem for both sexes ...

"when a woman can do her job without being harassed as though she's an object;"

Thats a little sexist don't you think? What about the men out there that are going through that. Why don't you mention them?

"when women want to be housewifes only of their own free will instead of religious intdotrination"

What about the men in that religion that are also forced into preconceived gender roles.

You're coming off as thought your only fighting for women, and not men.

"In the meantime, perhaps it's a good idea for the many housewives.... Because the 74% majority of men sure aren't doing it."

Why wont feminists do it? I was told feminism benefits males too. Why aren't feminists fighting for the boys too?

If you're so pro-equality, you need to look at the glass basement as well as the glass ceiling.

OK, House Wife--either you're trolling or you're not listening. Go check out the Feminism 101 blog that I linked to if you'd genuinely like to know more about feminism. But I'm guessing that you're here just to start smack. So please move on.

Sarah, understood. But you must admit, to be a feminist or a manist creates an obvious divide.

Egalitarianism, focuses on just that..EQUALNESS. It doesnt have men or women at the head of the agenda. Don't get me wrong, feminism was a great idea, and its did great, but its slowing down and its given birth to people like Germain Greer....

Its time to take it to the next level wouldn't you say? Move up to egalitarianism.

"House Wife," you seem to be making a mountain out of a semantic molehill. If you acknowledge that the aims of feminism are legitimate and just, and in fact ARE egalitarian (as they are), then who cares if we call it "a movement for people who prefer green cheese"? You may find the term odd, but if a name you don't like can prevent you from supporting a good cause, your focus is skewed. That and your insistence on using diminutives like "dear" and "sweetie" leads me to question your sincerity. If you are genuinely curious, instead of arguing and raising very basic points that have been addressed repeatedly on this website, why haven't you checked out the link Jessica posted? Or, you know, bothered to at least peruse the archives?

These pundits and all of these pointless "analysis" give me a headache.

Desipis, I can see your concern, but we don't all fit this stifling box MSM would have all Americans fit into - I honestly, call me a fool, feel that most people are aware of this bullshit. Well, at least younger voters are. You just don't see that side of us on tv much, what you see are idiots who try to make race and gender the deciding factor when they really aren't.

House Wife gave her/himself away when s/he made mention of the glass basement. S/he is not ignorant - just trying to start shit. S/he is also familiar with Greer, so yeah; these aren't innocent, sincere questions.

I love when anti-feminists claim that the most qualified people should be president/CEO/representatives. That's what we want too. Men don't make it to the top because they just happen to be the most qualified; they have the old boys network helping them. They benefit from discrimination against women. Women have to work twice as hard to be taken half as seriously as men.

Why don't feminists work to help boys and men? Boys and men are helped as a result of feminism. But feminism's main goal is not elevating boys and men (they're already elevated!), so it's not our job to focus on it at the expense of the girls and women who need us.

We don't work on transportation issues either; that's not our focus.

Just because Gloria Steinemn slept with Jim Brown back in the 1960s doesn’t give her license to make wildly stupid and uniformed comments about race and what Black men and black women should be doing in American politics and social movements. And given Ms. Steinem's stunningly wrongheaded recollection of historical facts regarding the struggle for and progression of equality for blacks in America, you should consider a taking a serious refresher course in American history.

Since Day One, Steinem and the (White) Feminists Movement have proven to never care about issues relevant to Black women or the black community beyond how doing so might benefit their (quite often) very separate and elitist agenda. Yet Gloria Steinem and other white feminists consistently hide behind these disingenuous monikers of “Feminists� and “Women� when what they really mean is “White Women� and “White Feminists�.

Lookit, inclusion’s fine; but nothing wrong with picking sides, either. But when you’re too arrogant and too condescending and hypocritical to admit that you want all the advantages of hidden agendas and exclusions with all the benefits of perceived inclusiveness is where I draw the line.

and that's where Steinem and Clinton are both at far as I'm concerned.

I have some doubts that House Wife's questions are sincere since she seems to be looking for trouble in her later posts but I agree with her and A Male that I prefer the terms egalitarian or humanist to feminist.

That said I am happy to call myself a feminist because I agree with the aims of the movement which is all about achieving equality. I see it as a shame the movement didn't adopt equalism as a title (or similar) but as has been pointed out it was women who needed to be elevalted to be equal (and there is still work to be done).

I think is it an example of the fabulous consciousness raising achieved by feminists that the gender bias of the term is even noticed.

Regarding the 50% representation in congress House Wife's assumption that to achieve that would mean not hiring the best people for the job is revealing to me. Feminists believe women or men would do an equally good job in congress (assuming appropriate qualifications etc). From that view flows the belief that something must be skewing the numbers since it can't logically be ability based. The view that to achieve parity we need to hire less able women assumes that the status quo has already picked the most able people and therefore women are less able to serve in congress than men. I don't accept that view so something else (like sexist barriers to education and political success perhaps!) must be to blame.

As to the USA presidential race I think it would be wonderful to see either a female president of the USA or a black president of the USA but mostly what I would like to see is please, please a Democrat president of the USA! I'm not American so I am probably not following the race as closely as others here but to me Obama and Clinton both seem good solid candidates that would be an enormous improvement on Bush and the Republicans.

"When 50% (instead of 16%) of the Congress is represented by women;"

House Wife: "Um really, does it matter? As long as the people in charge are qualified, who cares what gender they are."

As I thought. You are not really interested in feminism, and you don't seem to be a woman, are you?

No, if those in position of power enacted laws and policies which showed respect for different kinds of people instead of favoring one over another, it wouldn't matter to me about their physical characteristics, politics, culture or personal beliefs. But that is not how most people operate, so I prefer diversity. You also have a misunderstanding of how Affirmative Action or gender equity works. Unqualified people are not selected over qualified people. As for worrying about males, whites, middle class people, etc., losing certain privileges in the name of improving the situation for the rest of the people, I really don't care.

I do not consider it ironic that I support feminism but do not consider myself a feminist. I believe I value the needs of other people as much as I value the needs of women. Under certain circumstances, this approach will even set me against women, or the opinions of many feminists.

For example, despite my gut reaction to punish or kill them personally, I believe *accused* rapists have certain rights, and once in prison, rapists retain certain rights, such as to humane living conditions and health care. Otherwise, why bother keeping them alive at all? A man I grew up with who was my classmate since kindergarten abducted, raped and murdered a 19 year old woman for $20. These facts are not in dispute - despite being the only person who can tell us about what happened, he is not too bright (witnesses the next day saw him washing out his truck), and a poor liar. He is in prison for life, as he deserves (Hawaii has no death penalty), but I still feel sorry for him (a likable class clown whose life was ruined by drugs as an adult, and who failed numerous times to turn his life around) and his family, as well as the victim and her loved ones.

He is just one face of the pervasive crystal methamphetamine problem my community faces (97% of arrestees test positive, and 70-80% of inmates are addicts to meth alone). I have never bumped into him while at the prison, but I would like to see how he is doing someday. My mother (a retired teacher) continued to know him until shortly before his arrest, but I haven't talked to him in about 25 years. The people (almost all men) I see in substance abuse groups have similar life stories. There are probably wife beaters, child abusers, and rapists among them (I do not know who), but they still need help.

Today during lunch, I had a job interview with the local psychiatric hospital. If all goes well, I will be able to have a direct hand in providing local people help for their disorders and problem behavior, hopefully to get them back into the community. (Do not view the mentally ill as potential criminals, but there are a few among them who are dangerous, and likely incurable.)

Haha, A Male, sometimes your posts venture off into left field, completely abandoning the topic at hand. I'm not trying to be snarky, I just found myself rooting for you to get back on topic.

Here's what I think: People (usually straight white men) who were once GUARANTEED good jobs, good educational opportunities, etc. are bitter now that they must compete with women and minorities for the good things in life.

Straight white guys don't make it to the big time just for being born straight, white and male anymore (not usually, at least). Thanks to the civil rights movement and the women's rights movement, things are more merit-based now than they've ever been. We still have a long, long way to go, but at least women and minorities have a chance to prove themselves capable of things society never let them try before. [Though it's clear from the past week that many people are still eager to trot out sexist stereotypes to dismiss strong women.]

"Haha, A Male, sometimes your posts venture off into left field, completely abandoning the topic at hand. I'm not trying to be snarky, I just found myself rooting for you to get back on topic."

It's the hypomania or hyperfocus, or so my psychiatrist would say. He couldn't believe last night that I once spent six or seven hours on a single post without taking a break. See, he claims I'm bipolar, but now is leaning back toward the original diagnosis of ADHD, because I do not exhibit mood swings. With an MD and charging a "discount" rate of $130 per hour, you'd think he should be sure after nine months of treatment. I am concerned about the variety of conditions he ascribes to me, because I am obligated to open my medical records for employment.

"Here's what I think: People (usually straight white men) who were once GUARANTEED good jobs, good educational opportunities, etc. are bitter now that they must compete with women and minorities for the good things in life."

I am sure research would support findings that is *exactly* why privileged males fear opportunities and rights for women, minorities, and foreigners (and non-Christians . . . ), because they think (and explicitly say or write) that women, blacks, Mexicans, Muslims, etc., are taking jobs, opportunities, tax dollars, even the entire country, away from them. Fortunately, I am non-white, economically underprivileged, and working in a 95% female dominated field, so I am unconcerned about "losing" much in the name of equal rights.

A male, I'm sorry if I offended you in my first paragraph.

I was not talking about you in the subsequent paragraphs; I know your deal at this point. :)
I was talking about people like "House Wife" who are clearly pissed off that their unearned privilege is being challenged in society.

A Male, you sound like such a kind compassionate person. In my opinion once you're a rapist, once you've raped, you lose ALL rights and ALL privileges. Preferably the government will eradicate this poor excuse for a carbon based life form. But thats my opinion. I personally have no problem with your stance or opinions.

sarahmc, LMAO! I may be a male? hahahaha, very nice work. In fact, I'm a 17 year old girl. I'm a reformed feminist. Thank god...I was just wondering if I should turn back, but you just full on hardened me up against feminism. *claps* well done.

Ahhh, I remember when I was 17 and thought that feminists were imagining things... then I hit the glass ceiling and realized the error of my ways.

Best of luck to you, House Wife. Sincerely.

Although I am really curious why you would call yourself "House Wife" if you're a 17-year-old girl. I really hope it's ironic or something, because 17 is WAAAAAY too young to get married. Hell, 27 is too young for a lot of people. (I'm 26 and very glad I didn't marry anyone I was dating ten years ago, five years ago, two years ago, etc. -- and hope to have at least a bit more wisdom-earning experience before I finally do settle down).

"A Male, you sound like such a kind compassionate person."

People may be led to believe so. Others online consider me a sociopath for what I would personally do with criminals.

"In my opinion once you're a rapist, once you've raped, you lose ALL rights and ALL privileges."

A good reason to keep people healthy and their minds active in prison, is so they can appreciate all they have lost. Last night I watched another edition of Lockdown on the History Channel. One 18 year old who was convicted of his first offense, brandishing a knife at a young woman, began his 15 year sentence (remarkably long, considering). He was naive and optimistic for the camera, but got beaten by his cellmate the very first night, and began to crack in protective isolation within days. He will reportedly spend the rest of his time on a special segregated wing as a marked man for being so soft. Wouldn't someone who wants this man punished want him to be healthy and aware to enjoy the rest of his 15 year sentence? It wouldn't have been interesting TV if he had just hanged himself.

Law fairy, Ive just realised that feminists are quite sexist...I'm pretty embarrassed that I supported feminism actually.

I wish feminists would stop feeding girls propaganda.

(And I chose House Wife, cause I think House Wives are cute. )

MABTW is right...feminists are sooks,they're hypocritical and they say stupid things.

"Law fairy, Ive just realised that feminists are quite sexist...I'm pretty embarrassed that I supported feminism actually."

Did you know that letting girls and women learn and use written language is more feminist than keeping girls and women illiterate is? If you're actually female and genuinely anti-feminist then stop typing. ;)

House Wife: "In fact, I'm a 17 year old girl."

Sure you are. Lots of teenage girls who come to the site asking about what feminism is, just to later cite Germain Greer as a part of the current movement, mention the "glass basement" and try to plug men's rights sites. You're a MRA troll, just as I suspected.

Kind of pathetic, don't you think? Go back to whacking off in your mom's basement. Kthxbye!

Hello everybody. Now, i find psychoanalysis to be a fascinatig hobby, and i personally devote my time to interaction between the sexes. I understand that feminists tend to point out what happens in business, and specific gender roles, but i don't hear much about how they beleive they are treated in everyday social situations. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Another one trying to bait the feminists?

Now, please. This is your forum, not mine. If you were to head over to my forum then i'd find the right to be abusive. Here i will only ask legitimate questions, and ask in return only answers, not accusations. Currently i have nothing against feminism, and have indeed won professional debates in favour of it, so if you don't mind ... broaden my knowledge.

Commodore Angryy, this is a place for feminist discussion--not a place for you to do your "debating" and "research." Something tells me that it's no coincidence that two minutes after I ban House Wife, you pop up.