Sadly I don't see anything coming of this. If it takes a massive international effort just to have one woman not flogged and imprisoned for the crime of being raped, odds are women's rights aren't very high on King Abdullah's list of priorities. It's a shame, but I see nothing coming of this petition.

I'm amazed that the country with the largest number of oil and natural gas reserves in the world doesn't allow half their population to drive. Interesting.

I'd like to remain optimistic, DaveNJ17.

I agree with dave. This seems a bit of putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. Obviously I think it's nuts to not allow women to drive, and I'd sign the petition. I just think maybe the focus should be on treating women as human beings first. That's just my opinion though and maybe people think this is a step towards that.

It's Saudi Arabia-- I will consider this a victory if they don't send police to the homes of every woman whose name is on that list and throw them in jail.

PamelaV: Isn't allowing women to drive cars at least a beginning in treating them as human beings?

Pamela Said:

That's just my opinion though and maybe people think this is a step towards that.

While this might be a very small step for Saudi Arabia if it happens... we do have to keep in mind one thing:

It takes a person of extreme courage and motivation to be a "women's rights activist in Saudi Arabia"!

This earlier article on the topic is interesting too:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/7001348.stm

"Saudi Arabian citizens comment on a petition urging the king to overturn their country's ban on women driving...

"...SAID, UNIVERSITY LECTURER, 50, RIYADH

"I have already taught my wife and most of my daughters how to drive. We go outside the city and drive there.

"In the Bedouin areas, women drive around, no problem. The Bedouins are far away from any sort of control. I teach in a university and students who come from there tell us about it...

"...When King Faisal tried to introduce education for girls, the same religious establishment opposed it. But the king was strong enough to enforce it.

"If the current government were strong enough they could make it happen, but I don't think they want to. They are frightened of being accused of deviating from Islam.

"Every time they are asked about it, they say it will come naturally. But if we lived in a natural society, women would have been driving as soon as cars began.

"There was no problem with women riding camels and donkeys in the past. What's wrong with cars?"

1.You can't compare the driving laws to the laws about rape. Yes, they're all terribly unfair, but they stem from different causes and are viewed differently by the public. Car driving - not such an awful offense in Islamic beliefs or in other Islamic countries. Therefore, it's more likely to happen.

2. In Saudi Arabia, the laws against car driving are socially considered outdated. Laws about gender division, on the other hand, are not held in the same consideration by the majority. Many still feel that men and women socializing seperately is still "natural," therefore laws about it aren't as much a priority as driving laws. This doesn't mean that the majority uphold the specific rape ruling being discussed in this thread but rather that the laws behind it are ... just different.

3. Comparatively, King Abduallah is a much bigger supporter of change than previous kings. He is more likely to support such laws and has increased the country's cooperation with other countries as well as pursued more modern governmental practices. He has instated many programs that encourage the country's youth, females included, to study abroad - specifically in America, which wasn't done in the past - and pursue higher education and careers.

All that said - I obviously still wish we could see a total abolition of oppressive legal practices in any countries, including America. And on that note, I'm shit-scared of Huckabee and his current success in Iowa.

I get the feeling that the petitions will be thrown out, since women aren't allowed to participate in the government. Kinda like the Dred Scott case.

It actually makes me very sad, because it's almost unfathomable, that women are denied a right as basic as the right to drive. And in a nation that is a U.S. ally. We have women astronauts, and their women can't drive a damn automobile. One wonders what our attitude toward this backward land would be if we weren't so dependent on it for oil. Our spineless politicians need to stop being respectful of other cultures that oppress people.

It makes me very sad, because it's almost unfathomable, that women are denied a right as basic as the right to drive. And in a nation that is a U.S. ally. We have women astronauts, and their women can't drive a damn automobile. One wonders what our attitude toward this backward land would be if we weren't so dependent on it for oil. Our spineless politicians need to stop being respectful of other cultures that oppress people.

You know, as much as I bitch about politics in this country, this definitely puts things in perspective a bit.

Things are far from perfect here in the US, but at least women have basic human rights.

"2. In Saudi Arabia, the laws against car driving are socially considered outdated."

That varies from society to society within Saudi Arabia, right? As Said (above) said, Bedouin women already ignore that rule and drive. Meanwhile, from the same article:

"NOORA, WIFE AND MOTHER, PART-TIME WRITER, 40s

"...Even if there were a law enabling women to drive, society itself would reject the women who did so.

"It's a taboo that has been ingrained in Saudi society. It's not just a legal issue, but a social tradition. Saudi households would reject the idea..."

"We have women astronauts, and their women can't drive a damn automobile."

One of their princes has a female pilot who still can't legally drive a damn automobile:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4045019.stm

"As a Saudi woman living in the conservative religious state, Hanadi Hindi will be forbidden from driving to work in her new job.

"When she arrives, she will climb into the cabin of a jet aircraft as Saudi Arabia's first female pilot.

"Ms Hindi has signed a contract with the private airline of Prince al-Walid bin Talal, a nephew of King Fahd..."

Imagine if America had an ally, which did not allow its Black citizens to vote, to drive, or to venture out alone in public unless accompanied by a non-Black male citizen. And when in public, these Black citizens must be covered from head-to-toe in a black abaya. Americans would be appalled!

Why is it when a person's rights are violated because of their race, it is unjust. Yet, when a person's rights are violated because of their sex, it's called culture?

Interesting. I come down on the side of letting Saudi women decide for themselves what rights they want and don't want and when. Let's support them in what they want, rather than being all judgmental because we've got that particular right checked off already.

Why is it when a person's rights are violated because of their race, it is unjust. Yet, when a person's rights are violated because of their sex, it's called culture?

Great point. I think religion has a lot to do with (all) female oppression. I really and truly believe that if every country had a strictly enforced separation of church and state (including the US) that things would be very peaceful for a lot more people. I guess I'm not even really referring to Saudi in particular.

I was thinking about it, and I have a problem with the term "right" with driving. In strict driving school terms, driving is a privilege. As in, you mess up too much (drunk driving, too many tickets, etc) and you have it revoked. Obviously this is different, but I just don't really agree with the term "natural right to drive". Maybe it is because I associate "natural" with bodily or of-the-earth type things. In either case, it it should be an equal privilege (or "right") regardless of gender, that's certain.

In any case, after thinking about it, I do think this is a positive step towards independence..although do women not have to be accompanied by men? Either way, I think this is good because (hate to think about it) it could make a woman safer by allowing her to get away from someone who may hurt her, in addition to the independence.

"Why is it when a person's rights are violated because of their race, it is unjust. Yet, when a person's rights are violated because of their sex, it's called culture?"

"Great point. I think religion has a lot to do with (all) female oppression."

Pamela-the word at the end of that sentence was *culture* not *religion*.

And although i can understand your point-as most people believe Islam denies womens rights as thats the idea that is perputrated by "islamic" states, i dont ever remember reading in the koran that "verily, women shall not drive automobiles or have the right to vote."

Sigh.
Again, I have faith in the women of Saudi Arabia, and instead of saying, "Oh, poor women who can't even drive we're so lucky," I would actually love to SIGN that petition.

"I was thinking about it, and I have a problem with the term 'right' with driving. In strict driving school terms, driving is a privilege. As in, you mess up too much (drunk driving, too many tickets, etc) and you have it revoked. Obviously this is different, but I just don't really agree with the term 'natural right to drive'."

Good points. Part of the issue seems to be the right to go places. How many non-car transportation options are there? Do the cities have good bus networks*, or not? Do the towns have grocery stores within walking distance of residential areas, or sprawl out much more? In fact, these details are important whether you're a Saudi Arabian woman who has no driver's license or an American man who can't afford a car or whomever.

"Why is it when a person's rights are violated because of their race, it is unjust. Yet, when a person's rights are violated because of their sex, it's called culture?"

"'Great point. I think religion has a lot to do with (all) female oppression.'

"Pamela-the word at the end of that sentence was *culture* not *religion*."

Exactly - some of these sexist customs have secular instead of spiritual origins.

"And although i can understand your point-as most people believe Islam denies womens rights as thats the idea that is perputrated by 'islamic' states, i dont ever remember reading in the koran that 'verily, women shall not drive automobiles or have the right to vote.'"

I don't remember where I read this, and Sojourner probably knows the facts more than I do, but I heard that a few years ago religious leaders in Iran were struggling to find religious justification for speed limits. Why? Some of the highways there don't have speed limits let alone male-only rules. Meanwhile, I heard that Tehrani drivers are like Boston drivers. Some politicans thought they were getting out of hand, but allegedly any politicians who imposed speed limits with secular justifications would get voted out of office or something by angry drivers both female and male...

* I checked http://urbanrail.net/as/asia.htm and found out that Saudi Arabia has no subway or MRT systems