Gross!

"...I'm also not a flesh and blood woman, you fucking loser."

Sorry. I don't think everyone who experiments with a sex doll is a loser. I certainly don't think sex toys (for men OR women) are for losers. It's just this notion that women should be more like mindless dolls that bothers and disgusts me. There's contempt for human women in that.

SarahMC--who wrote that quote?

I read this -> [url]http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,522919,00.html[/url] article the other day about "Sexbots" and it made me shiver... I mean, who is actually willing to trade in a real, loving, caring, HUMAN partner for a stupid doll that smells of rubber and plastic?
What a strange world we live in!
At least "Der Spiegel" (one of germany's leading political magazines) was flooded with readers mail, calling bullshit at this stupid "scientist" who said, that our sexlife will be better with dolls.
Please notice, that some of the pictures in the article are realy "graphic"... if you may finde it offensive, i am sorry - did not intend to harm anyones feelings....

I made it up as though I were continuing the Real Doll's ad.

Simply more evidence that there are wackjobs all across the spectrum.

Pssst. If you examine the photo real close, you can see a faint capital 'L' on this perv's forehead.

I have to hurl.

ah, lol. sorry i'm slow today. (nye hang over still in effect)

Ugh. Apart from the whole "Real Doll" thing being, just, ewww (again not the sex toy part, the whole 'women should be just like this' part)...sharing sex toys is just wrong. Is he going to stick the doll in an autoclave before renting it out? Sick.

...the "Lars" movie is pretty good, though. I may be biased because I love Ryan Gosling, but it just kind of broke my heart, and actually didn't skeeve me out at all. Probably because he doesn't go around in the movie having sex with the doll and wishing that all women were like her.

I like the Tracy who looks like Mariah Carey.

These guys downplay it, but understand risk and covering their asses. If they really cared, they probably wouldn't do it at all. Even the "we rent sybians" site (I assume for women) closed down for exactly this reason. Slut shaming? No. A simple fact of life.

"Q: Are there any known health risks associated with playing with the doll?
A: Not really. The doll is made out of silicone (inanimate matter) and so does not host any transmitable diseases. Our dolls also receive a very thorough disinfection bath after each play and come in a risk free condition. However, to avoid even the slightest risk possibility we require that you WEAR A CONDOM at all times when entering the doll's love entries. From the moment, you have entered this website you also have agreed to these terms: By entering and using this website and/or placing a reservation for a session you agree that you use our service entirely at your own risk and that you won't hold Sweeties - FinestSexDollRental and www.sexdolrental.com (owned by Sweeties - FinestSexDollRental) liable for any consequences that may emerge for you or anybody else from using this website and/or our services by you."

About renting and "sharing" Sybians:

"January 3, 2005 (Press Release) -- WeRentSybians.com will no longer be renting Sybians to lifestyles, and swingers groups."

"With the growing concern over sexually transmitted diseases and AIDS, the company has retired all of its machines, and will auction them off in the near future.
With the leading figures in the US pornography industry calling for all adult movie production to cease this last summer, the owners of We Rent A Sybian.com has taken a closer look at the safety risks of having many users using one machine.?

"For more information about the Sybian, you may still go http://www.werentsybians.com or visit us at ADULT TOYS THAT WORK http://www.adulttoysthatwork.com"

They ceased operations for concern over liability risks and STDs including AIDS, but planned to AUCTION their stock? WTF?

"I mean, who is actually willing to trade in a real, loving, caring, HUMAN partner for a stupid doll that smells of rubber and plastic?"

I don't know how a Real Doll would be better, but I've heard incredible things about Sybians for women. Quite frankly, I don't know how a man as a sex partner can compare to toys for women.

Sybians are huge, heavy and noisy, though. They're not suitable for, say, apartment use because the neighbors downstairs will complain about the vibrations coming through the ceiling. They don't exactly store easily in the nightstand.

as creepy as real dolls are, "lars and the real girl" was a good movie and didn't really have anything to do with wanting to put one's netherparts in an oversized plastic replica of barbie.

I won't go judging anyone's masturbation style. Real dolls are creepy but I also view ass fetishes as a bit weird. We've all got our kinks or strange habits.
As for the men who wish women were like real dolls, well... maybe by playing with their real dolls all the time they're keeping themselves out of the gene pool. We can hope.

I remember watching a video about something like this from Japan (I believe it was on the news there). One man had thousands of USD worth of "sex dolls" in his apartment. Complete with outfits!

I remember him saying how the doll could "never cheat on him" and would "always be loyal" unlike a real girlfriend.

Yikes.

"Sybians are huge, heavy and noisy, though. They're not suitable for, say, apartment use because the neighbors downstairs will complain about the vibrations coming through the ceiling. They don't exactly store easily in the nightstand."

The neighbors are just jealous. You can put them on vibration absorbing materials like exercise mats or on a bed mattress. They are meant to be stored in the closet, I believe, like my Liberator shapes.

"As for the men who wish women were like real dolls, well... maybe by playing with their real dolls all the time they're keeping themselves out of the gene pool. We can hope."

...and more importantly, keeping themselves out of the dating pool.

The Japanese man with 100 sex dolls worth about $170,000 would be the middle aged engineer called "Tabo." He is famous in the "love doll" community. He also has a personal website with photos (perhaps thousands) of his dolls.

Interesting how Tabo would like girlfriends who would be ever loyal, but he has 100 sex dolls one after the other. He's welcome to his personal kinks, but he's still a loser. At least he keeps his apartment neat.

A Male:
"Quite frankly, I don't know how a man as a sex partner can compare to toys for women."

Actually, I don't know how sex toys for women can compare to a man (or a woman) as a sex partner. Perhaps as an aid, yes, especially in regard to women who find it harder to achieve orgasm. But, seriously, nothing compares to the enthusiasm, fun, and participatory pleasure that, in my opinion, women get from human partners. Same goes for guys, or at least the ones I've been with, which is why I can't understand (okay, theory wise I get it, but it the results suck so much, I just don't see the point) men who treat women as anything other than people (again, we can reference that study mentioned in a few posts about feminists having better (more fulfilling?) sex)--the moment a woman is not a person, of course you're gonna wish she'd be the object you see her as and not the autonomous, perhaps uncooperative, being she really is. Sigh...

*please note mean the general 'you', not a specific poster or person.

Aside from the wanting real women to be like a doll, I also find it disconcerting that, basically these guys are having sex with an unresponsive woman (kinda like rape...). It's the ultimate objectification; literally making a woman-object, who doesn't have that oh-so-problematic consciousness and free will.

What's even worse for me is, one of the dolls looks exactly like me. It's like there are men out there having sex with an unresponsive mock-up of me. It's super creepy.

I went to Lars and the The Girl with an open mind, not wanting to have a knee jerk reaction, but I just couldn't dig it. At the end of the day, it's still a movie about a man who loves a plastic doll instead of a real woman, and the normalization of it. It's a pretty creepy premise that was never really addressed.

Imagine love making for as long as you want and only in the ways that you want.

...unless, of course, you're the kind of weirdo pervert whack job who wants his fucking to involve an enthusiastic, orgasmic, mobile human being. In that case, we can't help you.

This ad should read "Imagine masturbating for as long as you want, and only in the ways that you want." Which isn't really a new concept; it's kind of the point of masturbating.

EG: "...unless, of course, you're the kind of weirdo pervert whack job who wants his fucking to involve an enthusiastic, orgasmic, mobile human being. In that case, we can't help you."

Hmmm... But I would take a real doll over duct tape any day. That stuff is sticky and burns.

EGs perversion sounds kind of cool too. Does it come in wriggly? Does it have a cuddle mode?

As I recall from the old video documentary on Real Dolls, the vaginas can be replaced after a little wear and tear. *cringe* Not that that changes the creep factor.

just want to clarify-

this guy is renting out a doll that men ejaculate to and they have no problem with this? Does he clean it out himself?

Quoted by A male: "we require that you WEAR A CONDOM at all times when entering the doll's love entries."

I'd just like to say that I kind of find the term "love entries" hilarious. The renting of Real Dolls (or any sex toys) is worrying, though if they are well-cleaned, is it really any riskier than regular sex?

Cedar: "At the end of the day, it's still a movie about a man who loves a plastic doll instead of a real woman"

*spoilers*
At the beginning, yes, but the doll is more of a tool than an end point, which makes it less disturbing, I think. Lars uses it to get over his issues and move forward, which I liked. And I don't think it's every really 'normalized' - the town plays along because they think that it'll help him. That said, I think it's key that Lars never had sex with the doll; I think he only even kissed "her" once or twice. I think that helps limit the objectification issue; the doll isn't a sex toy as much as it's an embodiment of a delusion or a physical representation of an imaginary friend.

I think it's also important (and interesting) to note that Lars was not completely in control of the doll once the town got involved - this is highlighted in the scene where he wants to play Scrabble, but she's being taken to a party. The doll's personality is still a projection of desires/expectations, of course, but at least it's a combination of a town's worth of input rather than just one man.

I agree that positioning a good sex partner as someone who has no agency, opinions and never says no is really the ultimate in objectification and comodification. The marketing around these dolls is really creepy.

However, in all seriousness, what isn't always creepy is sharing sex toys
(so I disagree that "sharing sex toys is just ick"). Silicone toys can be boiled, put in the dishwasher(if you have one) or cleaned in a 10% bleach solution. There must be a few other people around here who don't find sharing silicone toys with lovers and friends strange or icky: I've lent a silicone vibrator to a close friend who wanted to try out a vibrator to see if she wanted one and I don't buy all new toys when I have a new girlfriend.

I could see how it would be phycologically icky for some people but for others it is a reality (especially if you are buying expensive silicone toys and don't have a lot of money). For me, as long as it isn't a health issue it is all good.

That being said, I wouldn't be comfortable using a toy someone else who I didn't know really really well unless I could sanitize it myself and I knew for sure what it was made of.

I wish I could see the face of the doll's owner when a gaggle of psycho frat boys gets a hold of that thing and returns it a broken, sticky mess before disappearing under the safety of their lawyer-daddies' wings.
This little enterprise can't last long.

Am I the only one with The Big Lebowski running through his head? "Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man!"

I've lent a silicone vibrator to a close friend who wanted to try out a vibrator to see if she wanted one and I don't buy all new toys when I have a new girlfriend.

Word to the wise, Christina, et al., I have a silicone vibrator and the store that sold it to me (goodvibes) was obligated to advise me to use a condom with it because it could transmit viruses and bacteria even if I wash it after each use.

cate--exactly. **movie spoilers**

it's also important that while bianca starts out as lars' "imaginary friend" and subject entirely to his control, as the townspeople get involved, biana starts to have a "life" of her own and lars must learn to deal with her as an agent (even if it is the live people who are acting this agency for her). bianca was like training wheels for human relationships for lars. it's weird, sure, but it's not sexual and i think the ending was very optimistic for lars' future relationships with everyone, including romantic ones.

Well, that's just nasty.

Oh pulleaze. No way those guys are using condoms on the dolls. Who the hell are they trying to kid?

"As I recall from the old video documentary on Real Dolls, the vaginas can be replaced after a little wear and tear."

A read of the site shows that wear, such as splitting of the flesh like material, particularly in the hips and pelvic region, is common. There are links, with photos of repairs and refurbishment. It is nasty, and never as good as the original.

"I also find it disconcerting that, basically these guys are having sex with an unresponsive woman (kinda like rape...)."

More like necrophilia. It's 100-135 pounds of room temperature silicone dead weight. Rape of a sleeping or unconscious woman, if one takes the Real Doll site's suggestion of pre-warming the doll in the bath.

"Imagine love making for as long as you want and only in the ways that you want."

About six minutes, with penile friction, probably. How revolutionary and exciting for a man.

"this guy is renting out a doll that men ejaculate to and they have no problem with this? "

They claim they clean and disinfect it, but claim they are free from liability and "require" use of condoms.

"The renting of Real Dolls (or any sex toys) is worrying, though if they are well-cleaned, is it really any riskier than regular sex?"

Akin to sex with a pro who has regular checkups and treatment, I imagine. Like I said, the company that rented Sybians ceased operations because of concern for liability and possible spread of STDs including AIDS.

More about love dolls and Japan. The founder of Orient Industries, a Mr. Tsuchiya, one of Japan's foremost manufacturers of "love dolls," (originally created for Japanese sailors in WWII - sharing was the rule back then as well, I suppose), says among the original users of his product approximately 30 years ago were the physically and mentally handicapped, as well as the socially inept. They fulfilled an unmet need. These days, it is quite common for widowers to buy and keep the dolls as "replacements" for their wives, dressing them up, speaking to them, and taking them traveling as if human. And if an owner has no more use for a doll, they are encouraged to be returned for a religious "funeral." The founder refers to all dolls as his "daughters." The showroom manager calls them all by name, not "dolls."

Okay, icky. I hate to be hung up on it, but if I'm going to be using a dildo or vibrator (which is basically what these dolls are), the last thing I want to see is a face. Seriously. If I'm masturbating and solo (not mutually masturbating), I'm doing it for me, and want to be focused on me. Those dolls are just confusing.

Besides, there's something very arousing in the give and take and negotiation of relationships with people.

"the last thing I want to see is a face."

BTW, Real Doll also offers a male body model called "Charlie," now with interchangeable body parts of differing size. While clearly gay, women were among intended users.

How varied can the sex with an inanimate object be?

I can't believe they call "sex" with these dolls "lovemaking." Doesn't "lovemaking" require another person? THESE ARE NOT PEOPLE! It's masturbation! Call it what it is! It's masturbation with a mannequin. Not lovemaking.

this reminds me of AI Artificial Intelligence where Jude Law played a sexbot/mecha called Gigolo Joe.
Pretty soon we'll get artificial representations of children that we can love....i hope not
Check the movie out. It brings up a lot of questions about the future of AI and how it could affect our society

"Pretty soon we'll get artificial representations of children that we can love...."

Some people consider pets substitutes for children. I know one couple that considers their dog(s) their literal child(ren). There are also some people who consider their real children to be dolls.

Is anyone else flashing back to Stepford Wives? Ira Levin was a fricking prophet.

The whole "real dolls" thing reminds me of a manga by Tokyopop called chobits, where computers have been turned into life like humanoids called persacoms and the series deals with how they mess up relationships and such...

Interesting find :)

It's an interesting thing for me to see this issue brought up in an intelligent matter as one of the things I specialize in is working with extremely shy individuals... Which, if they don't solve their shyness, some of them spillover into phemenona such as this one.

I got a lil comment on this:

"Fucking a sex toy is fine by me. Calling it your girlfriend and wishing that real women were like dolls (in that they can't move, talk, etc) is not."

I agree on the the part on real women. Wanting to change and *control* and impose notions about what real women should be like is arrogant... Especially saying they should be like an an actual in-animate object!

I don't agree with the reverse though... "Calling it your girlfriend"...

It's the only way they can find to cope with not being able to have a girlfriend. The only other option for most of them is suicide, as unfortunately the vast majority of them don't get any help whatsover...

These are some incredibly unfortunate men who have been born with a severe social disability. All they ever wanted was to feel love, to feel and know what it's like to be in a relationship. The vast majority of them receive absolutely no help for their crippling condition, in fact, they get further punished for it by social rejection. They get punished not for what they do, but for what they *don't do*, which is socialize.

There's only 3 ways extremely shy individuals get out of their rut 1) acting out in strange ways like this 2) getting frustrated, snapping and turning to the opposite, becoming obnoxious and arrogant men/women 3) getting help, which is the rarest as there's very little organizations in the world helping out with this as of now. Most people not only not help them, but reject them and judge them.

If I could make a metaphor. I could say that these men are like say a starving orphan child in india...

...and judging them for trying to cope by calling a doll a girlfriend... is like... calling that starving child a "control-freak" for calling their voluntary nurse... "mommy".

To the heartless commenters here... Insulting, berating , judging and sayign stuff like "i hope they stay out of the dating pool", "may they be weeded out of the gene pool" etc...

Just hope karma doesn't hit you up the head and you end up having a child with autism or severe social anxiety... like so many parents do. I also hope to god one of these parents isn't reading your heartless and ignorant comments.

I haven't clicked the link because I'm not sure if its NSFW or not, but my first thought upon reading "Someone has thought of the genius idea of "renting out" their Real Doll." was that some guy had bought himself one of those things (which as I recall are fairly expensive) but discovered that the novelty of fucking an inanimate woman-shaped object quickly wore off, so now he's decided to pimp the doll out to other men in an attempt to recoup the money he spent on the thing.
Considering that the dolls are supposed to be customized for the individual and that it's also quite likely that the owner has ejaculated into/onto it at some point, I doubt the RealDoll folks take returns. This "pimping out" could just be "buyer's remorse."

Maybe I'm naiive for thinking so, but a possible upside to this is that men who might be curious about "having sex" with one of these dolls now have the chance to do so without having to buy one of their own. I imagine some might decide after "renting" one that it's really not all that great--and thus the Real Doll folks lose what might have been a potential customer. Yay?

"These are some incredibly unfortunate men who have been born with a severe social disability. All they ever wanted was to feel love, to feel and know what it's like to be in a relationship. The vast majority of them receive absolutely no help for their crippling condition, in fact, they get further punished for it by social rejection. They get punished not for what they do, but for what they *don't do*, which is socialize."

You have a problem with those of us who want to be friends with people who are friendly to us?

What next?

If I prefer a driver who can see oncoming traffic when I take the bus, am I punishing visually impaired people?

If I ask a dentist to remove my wisdom teeth, am I punishing students struggling to get into dental school?

Sure, I've had a hard time learning to make friends myself, but that hardship is no substitute for social skills and I'm not entitled to have people pretend it is.

"If I could make a metaphor. I could say that these men are like say a starving orphan child in india..."

According to that similie, if one of these guys has sex by raping someone else then he'd be as guiltless as a starving child who gets food by stealing it from someone else.

"Insulting, berating , judging and sayign stuff like 'i hope they stay out of the dating pool'"

I was responding to a statement specifically about the men who wish women were like real dolls when I mentioned staying out of the dating pool.

Do you honestly think I'm heartless for not liking someone who wishes I was less human?

These days, it is quite common for widowers to buy and keep the dolls as "replacements" for their wives, dressing them up, speaking to them, and taking them traveling as if human.

That's both heartbreaking and incredibly creepy.

"These are some incredibly unfortunate men who have been born with a severe social disability. All they ever wanted was to feel love, to feel and know what it's like to be in a relationship. The vast majority of them receive absolutely no help for their crippling condition, in fact, they get further punished for it by social rejection. They get punished not for what they do, but for what they *don't do*, which is socialize."

I was one of those CHILDREN (yes uit hapens to both males AND females, go figure). Yet I didn't go out and get a doll to act as my boyfriend. I got therapy. I got treatment. Using a doll as a proxy for a human being is not treatment, it is displacement, and another reason to avoid socializing with real people (why risk rejection by humans when your doll always loves you). It is regression.

Real dolls are not treatment for social anxiety. They're sex toys.

"I hate to be hung up on it, but if I'm going to be using a dildo or vibrator (which is basically what these dolls are), the last thing I want to see is a face."

I imagine with all the porn these kinds of men have been watching, they don't have the thought processes to imagine a woman's face anymore.

they get further punished for it by social rejection. They get punished not for what they do, but for what they *don't do*, which is socialize.

What an odd turn of phrase. This is hardly "punishment." It's true, by definition, that if you don't socialize, other people will not socialize with you. That's hardly punishment--it is the condition of social anxiety disorder. It's like saying I'm being "punished" for my depression by feeling bad about myself. No--that's the actual condition of depression.

Your phrasing is coming perilously close to suggesting that women have some sort of obligation to socialize with men regardless of whether or not we find the men's company pleasant. Otherwise we're "punishing" them with social rejection. But that's not a punishment, because social acceptance by women is not something men are entitled to. Social acceptance by women (or indeed, other men) is something that happens when a person is able to interact pleasantly with others, making that interaction and acceptance rewarding and pleasant for those others. When autistic men and men with social anxiety disorder cannot do that, it is very sad and isolating, but that is a function of their condition. It's not because women are "punishing" them.

"When autistic men and men with social anxiety disorder cannot do that, it is very sad and isolating, but that is a function of their condition. It's not because women are 'punishing' them."

Exactly!

Likewise, when I had a crush on a nice guy and he turned out to be gay, he wasn't punishing me for being female.

"Social acceptance by women (or indeed, other men) is something that happens when a person is able to interact pleasantly with others, making that interaction and acceptance rewarding and pleasant for those others."

Nitpick: the ability to interact pleasantly with others is necessary for social acceptance, but people who are able can still be socially rejected for other reasons from other people's racism to lack of time to socialize to whatever.

"It's the only way they can find to cope with not being able to have a girlfriend. The only other option for most of them is suicide, as unfortunately the vast majority of them don't get any help whatsover..."

As someone who is alleged by the local specialist to have a mild form of Asperger Syndrome, for my poor ability to deal with the "unpredictability" of humans, and impaired social skills (I usually keep two or three "real" friends), I do find this interesting. It was my previous job as a teacher and my return to school as a nurse which broadened my horizons.

And yes, I did call a Japanese man in his mid 40s, who has a regular job as an engineer, and also a $170,000 collection of about 100 "love dolls" at home, who has a well known website of photos of his girlfriends, who on TV regrets the fact that a human girlfriend may cheat or not be ever loyal; a "loser." If he has a conventional place in human society (an educated, employed engineer), and is willing to spend that much money; as a nurse, I suggest therapy and an open minded search for human companionship. I do not judge true "shut ins *" who may indeed have psychological or social impairments much more serious than my own. [I also considered suicide as a teen, but do not consider it remarkable or unusual.] Japanese results from "treatment" are not encouraging, and the foreseeable deaths of the shut-ins' middle aged to elderly parents is considered to be another social problem, as the estimated one million people will somehow have to suddenly fend for themselves.

* What is the scale of the "shut in" problem in the US? I am unable to find such information. In Japan, it is a recent, but widely publicized problem (called "hikikomori"), with an oft cited one million** (one percent out of a population of 127 million) people (average in their 30s) who may literally do not leave their homes for any reason (dependent on the goodwill of their parents), in the most extreme cases shutting themselves up in their bedrooms, not communicating with family, only to come out at night and eat while the rest of the family is asleep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori

** "Twenty percent of all male adolescents in Japan," according to the psychologist who coined the term, and "some youths remain in isolation for years, or in rare cases, decades." The latter part, at least, is not in dispute.

The limo lounge aspect really adds to the class factor. I only see this stuff getting worse. There seems to be no end to the new and embarassing ways in which men are humiliating themselves these days.

"As someone who is alleged by the local specialist to have a mild form of Asperger Syndrome, for my poor ability to deal with the 'unpredictability' of humans, and impaired social skills (I usually keep two or three 'real' friends)"

Give yourself more social credit than that. Didn't you say you're married? That counts too*! After all, if dating is social then why can't romantic relationships within marriage be social too? :)

"and the foreseeable deaths of the shut-ins' middle aged to elderly parents is considered to be another social problem, as the estimated one million people will somehow have to suddenly fend for themselves."

...or just get inherited by younger members of their extended families, especially if their siblings and cousins who are employed were discouraged from moving out too?

* nitpicky disclaimer: Assuming you and your wife chose each other instead of asking matchmakers to do it for you

I think you are too harsh on the poor guys. I really can't see the difference between a dildo and a doll. Men try to act tough, but I think many feel like losers when it comes to dating. Women can have as much sex as they wish, men cannot. So if they are tempted by a doll that is far hotter than any woman they will ever meet, who can blame them? And they don't harm anyone. I think it is a good thing to remove shame from sexual feelings, whatever they are. As long as you don't harm anyone everything is good.

You said:

"What an odd turn of phrase. This is hardly "punishment." It's true, by definition, that if you don't socialize, other people will not socialize with you. That's hardly punishment--it is the condition of social anxiety disorder. "

and further

"Your phrasing is coming perilously close to suggesting that women have some sort of obligation to socialize with men regardless of whether or not we find the men's company pleasant. Otherwise we're "punishing" them with social rejection. But that's not a punishment, because social acceptance by women is not something men are entitled to."

Maybe my phrasing came off wrong, but this is not what I was going for. Of course women aren't obliged to socialize with men. That would be going back to the pre-feminist era, where women were made obliged to do things to men's benefit.

What i was heading for with social rejection is the following...

Not that women reject a socially ackward man when he tried to befriend or court them (which they would have a right to, you're not obliged to sleep with everyone who shows a desire to).

They reject them even from a distance, simply for the fact that they're socially ackward.

The vast majority of socially ackward men and women i work with encounter ridicule and problems.

But the men... mostly tend to encounter the most ridicule and rejection from women. If a man goes and tries to find a solution, he faces a whole bunch of women, from female relatives to organizations who insult and berate and judge him for the fact that he's socially ackward and trying to solve it. My favorite is the "creepy" designation. The only way shy men can solve their social ackwardness is through working in the real world (therapy alone doesn't cut it)... He actually needs to go out and interact with women.

What tends to happen is that most women tend to insult and berate him for having had the audacity to try and befriend them.

Most often the attitude is not:

"hmm, poor guy, he's so socially ackward... I can't be friends with him, i'll let him go easy"

The attitude is most of the time:

"THAT RETARD! How dare he be CREEPY!?!? How dare he try and befriend me".

I've never seen shy women get berated for being shy.

I do have understanding for it though. (not that I totally condone it, but I understand).

This extreme tends to come from the fact that women have for centuries been opressed and literally *forced* to have to be "feminine" and giving, and always nice and have to be friendly and caring to anyone who expressed interest in them.

So... it's understandable that the pendulum is swinging a bit to the other side here.

I can't fault women for the current "no one's going to tell me who to be friendly to!!" attitude at all. I'm just bringing a bit of awareness to it from the other perspective.

"Women can have as much sex as they wish"

Some of us can't.

"The attitude is most of the time:

"'THAT RETARD! How dare he be CREEPY!?!? How dare he try and befriend me'."

Actually, in many cases it's more like "THAT CREEP! I'm afraid of what he might do to me if I let him get too close, so I should be careful instead of being naïve and ending up yet another battered girlfriend"...because she thinks he's being that way on purpose instead of reading his mind and learning he's socially awkward.

Meanwhile, when I like a guy but don't know how to approach him, I don't throw myself at him anyway. If I did throw myself at him anyway, there's a big chance he'd find me repulsive and/or tell his friends how weird I seemed. So, I back off instead.

"I've never seen shy women get berated for being shy."

Ah, but have you seen women get berated for approaching men in a manner that drives the men away?

"I've never seen shy women get berated for being shy."

How often do shy women approach men, and how "undesirable" are they, to be berated, like a "creepy" "retard" man? I happen to like shy women very much. Both women through the years that I considered serious girlfriends whom I proposed to (the first one agreed, but later found another guy, thereafter ignoring me - shy Filipinas are in high demand), and the only women I had sex with, were shy women. Despite my own awkwardness with women, and the mutual attraction, I was the one who had to approach them. And after getting to know each of them, I realized they carried their own internal wounds like me, which strengthened our bond.

Believe me, I've had to learn to be around women, and people in general, myself. (After my last post, I realized I used the word "humans" to refer to "other" people.) I've been through the pain as an awkward child and young adult. But I don't need to feel sorry for these guys. They might have found real, decent, accepting women at church or found women like themselves in their support groups. I found my wife in a cooking class dominated by middle aged and elderly women (we were the only single adults, and I the only male). But these guys made up their minds to lay down $6400 for their otherwise unobtainable and unrealistic dream "girlfriends." They can learn to live with the predictable outcome, which will include even more people calling them "creepy," particularly after going public.

"Ah, but have you seen women get berated for approaching men in a manner that drives the men away?"

You do have a point there :) just the other day I introduced one my dear female friends to one of my male friends. She drove him away... The same night, another female friend, drove away one of my male friends with being too pushy.

It might be bias, but I still wouldn't say it was as hardcore of a berating. Both guys just said a 1 sentence reason.

I've never seen men talk at length about it. It's ussualy just "ah, she was cute, but she drove me away with her neediness, man she was so pushy"--> But it stops there.

Most of the females i've worked with will spend 40-60 minutes talking about the "creepy" guy and how badly he approached them or asked them out... And how dared he attempt to ask them out. And how dares he give that compliment etc... and go on a rant on why men suck so much and are so retarded at dating etc... etc...

Thanks for pointing that out though... As we study and look at these things...

We tend to always bias towards the "woe is me" part of our own gender, and forget that of the other.

So we men tend to go in the direction of "Ohhhh dating is so easy for women, women never get rejected", "women can get sex any time they want, and all they do is just control men"... and blind spot all instances where it's actually harder for women.

Women on the other hand tend to say "men have it so easy, they never get hurt, or experience pain", putting a blind spot to all the men they rejected.

I guess we both do it.

As a human, I'm probably very biased too, and seeing more of a bias towards' men's "difficulty". I bet all of this text I just wrote is full of my own bias and perceptual distortion too.

Oh and mina. I owe you one HUGE time :)

What you wrote here:

========
"Actually, in many cases it's more like "THAT CREEP! I'm afraid of what he might do to me if I let him get too close, so I should be careful instead of being naïve and ending up yet another battered girlfriend"...because she thinks he's being that way on purpose instead of reading his mind and learning he's socially awkward."
=====

Was a huge a-ha and eye-opener for me. It's the whole biased perception again. When we see women do this (we, biased-men) tend to go "b**** see how she treated that poor shy guy and hurt him?!"... ASSuming that this is what indeed happened. Forgetting that hey, she can't read minds.

More often than not, she read it as him potentially being say a predator, maniac or pervert...

When you take on that perspective, everything shifts.

Thanks again for that nugget :) I might have to sometimes quote on you that in some of my work, you explained it very well.

"Give yourself more social credit than that. Didn't you say you're married? That counts too*!"

My wife is my best friend, and greatest source of support. She is irreplaceable.

In my little reality, "real" friends are the kinds of people who would do nearly anything for each other, like in sappy movies or TV shows. There is no question that my wife is one of those. She is the only person like that at the moment, other than my mother.

The kinds of people I would e.g., go to parties with if I were invited (I do not initiate gatherings or events), number about five. However, because of my previous job and current training, I will talk or listen to just about anyone.

My favorite classmate is a special case, and if we happen to bump into each other at the shopping center or Starbucks we pretend to be boyfriend and girlfriend. She pays. She is 15 years younger than myself and single, so I do not know what her motivation is.

Alek,
"There's only 3 ways extremely shy individuals get out of their rut 1) acting out in strange ways like this 2) getting frustrated, snapping and turning to the opposite, becoming obnoxious and arrogant men/women..."

What we are protesting is those men who first do #2 and then #1. NOT men who are shy or socially awkward. We are reacting SPECIFICALLY to the claims that these dolls are "better" than real women, what with our opinions and expectations and weight gain, and refusal to do certain sex acts, yada yada yada.

It's an absolute lie that all women can get sex whenever they want. Men want to sleep with women, for sure. But they will NOT sleep with any woman.

Have you never witnessed men mocking women for being "fat chicks?" Nit-picking about women's bodies?

Plain-looking women, "old" women, homeless women and fat women (among others) are women too. But it seems when the topic of sex arises, we disappear.

Hey Sarah :) I wasn't saying "women can get sex any time they want, they have it so easy", I was actually mocking men who do say that :)

And yeah, you said it so elegantly here:

================
"Plain-looking women, "old" women, homeless women and fat women (among others) are women too. But it seems when the topic of sex arises, we disappear."
===========

We (people) tend to bias our perception only towards what suits our belief. So men continually talk about how "easy women have it"... while of course conveniently forgetting those instance that don't suit their point.

He will say "women have it so easy, I have to risk all the rejection" talking of not being able to get the models he was chasing after, and in the meantime he forgets about all the normal-real-world-women that HE rejected.

That's why one of the things I keep talking about is re-education.

You pointed out very well that:

=====

What we are protesting is those men who first do #2 and then #1. NOT men who are shy or socially awkward. We are reacting SPECIFICALLY to the claims that these dolls are "better" than real women, what with our opinions and expectations and weight gain, and refusal to do certain sex acts, yada yada yada.
==========

Here's where the re-education part comes in. I keep finding the "protesting" part really really ineffective.

Protesting that men not objectify women, doesn't tend to (in my amateurish opinion) stop sexual objectification. Protesting that men not be arrogant jerks, doesn't stop them from being so.

Especially since a man who's been shy all his life, when he becomes an asshole, does get more dates than when being shy... And the sad thing is, he draws out the conclusion that "women want assholes. He doesn't know there is a 3rd path... "becoming a good man".

So when a feminist campaign or article comes in telling him that he's a "bad person" for being a jerk, or he has sexually objectified women all his life... what's the first thing he instictively does?

Well... as all humans do... when someone points out we're doing something bad, we rationalize it out and blame it on messenger...

Remember that whole "don't
kill the messenger thing"?

It just creates anti-feminists.

I think it's much more effective to re-educate men. Instead of telling him "you are bad for being an arrogant jerk" or "you're an idiot for objectifying women"... teach them what it feels like to be objectified, why it hurts women etc... etc...

Teach them that there is a third way. You don't have to choose between being a macho jerk, or being a shy dweeb.

I would think from having worked with the other side profesionally... my opinion is that perhaps an attitude of:

"You're a BAD man for wanting to control women, stop doing that!"

Isn't as effective as...

"Listen I know you don't have a bad intention... But when you're objectifying women you're hurting them. I know to you it seems like -not a big deal- but this is what it does, and this is why" etc... There is another way, I know you think what you're doing is working, but there is another path"

I have this crazy lil thought in my head, might seem simplistic, but I actually believe that if every man could somehow be made to live in the shoes of a woman for a month (and vice versa), all of these problems would be solved by the end of this month.

The problem is that men don't get it. Aside from psychopaths, most men don't want to do bad. They simply don't get it. They need to be re-educated.

That's again a bit of an outsider's opinion I got, i'm not an expert and just playing amateur activist :) I hope i'm at least putting in a good new perspective though, at worst I hope at least it's a good laugh :)

"He will say "women have it so easy, I have to risk all the rejection" talking of not being able to get the models he was chasing after, and in the meantime he forgets about all the normal-real-world-women that HE rejected."

This is just one problem with the idealized "Real Doll" girlfriend. Real women, and the women accessible to him, are not like that.

If a socially impaired man went on TV and proclaimed his hand was his girlfriend, better than real women, you would see the problem for what it was. For guys like this, at least, the "Real Doll" is not mere masturbation. Not for $6400.

"I have this crazy lil thought in my head, might seem simplistic, but I actually believe that if every man could somehow be made to live in the shoes of a woman for a month (and vice versa), all of these problems would be solved by the end of this month."

It would take a lot longer than that to experience or undo a history of inequality. The minds of men in women's bodies would also not be able to appreciate discrimination. The mind of a man in a woman's body being viewed and treated as a sex object might enjoy the attention for a time, until/unless he actually realizes how it is holding him down by ignoring his personal qualities and skills. And I doubt women as a group would adopt the mindset to treat men that way to find out. They would probably be sympathetic, defeating the purpose of the experience.

Alek, I just want to second what Mina said about women having, for our own safety, to be sensitive to creepy vibes from men. For a while there was a janitor in my office who was, well, creepy. I suspect he has some form of mild retardation, but the fact is, he never did to the men what he did to the women; he would come up behind me way too close and start talking right in my ear; he would wander into my female colleagues' offices and sit down even if they were in the middle of working; he would insert himself into conversations between women. And there was something else...an undefinable but creepy vibe.

Now, maybe he's just socially awkward. But what if he's not? If he doesn't follow social norms about how close to stand how do I know if he'll follow social norms about touching? If he follows me down the hall when I've given off clear signals that I don't want him to, where else will he follow me?

I'd rather be rude than be followed; I'd rather be rude than be groped; I'd rather be rude than be assaulted.

The contrast reminds me of an oft-cited study about gender and fears. When the men were asked what they most feared about women, they answered that they feared that women would laugh at them. When the women were asked what they most feared about men, they answered that they feared that men would kill them. Part of male privilege is the ability to live without thinking about sexual violence in everyday life. Women don't have the luxury.

I realize that you already thanked Mina for bringing this to your attention, but I wanted to second what she said, because it is vitally important that especially men who are socially awkward understand what is at stake for women who are trying to read their signals, and that they understand that operating in a context in which the worst result of an interaction is being rejected is still a privilege. They need to know this so that they can better understand what is at stake in learning social cues. For women, reading these cues is about survival, and we just can't take too many chances or cut too much slack. If a man stands too close and gives an inappropriate compliment, that tells us something about his ability or willingness to respect boundaries, and we can't afford to make a mistake on that.

"Oh and mina. I owe you one HUGE time :)"

You're welcome. :)

"'I have this crazy lil thought in my head, might seem simplistic, but I actually believe that if every man could somehow be made to live in the shoes of a woman for a month (and vice versa), all of these problems would be solved by the end of this month.'

"It would take a lot longer than that to experience or undo a history of inequality. The minds of men in women's bodies would also not be able to appreciate discrimination. The mind of a man in a woman's body being viewed and treated as a sex object might enjoy the attention for a time, until/unless he actually realizes how it is holding him down by ignoring his personal qualities and skills. And I doubt women as a group would adopt the mindset to treat men that way to find out. They would probably be sympathetic, defeating the purpose of the experience."

What if they didn't all switch in the same month? Kinda like in Ranma 1/2, when Ranma turns into a girl a bunch of the other boys stay male and some of them don't know he wasn't a girl his whole life.

Some other science fiction and fantasy that's interesting along these lines:

_Golden Witchbreed_ and _Ancient Light_ (also available in 1 volume, _Orthe_) by Mary Gentle. It's set on a planet in which the natives announce "it's a boy!" or "it's a girl!" at puberty instead of birth, because that's when one's sex becomes visible.

The Culture series by Iain M. Banks. From his "A Few Notes on the Culture" at
http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~stefan/culture.html ,

"...Ovulation is at will in the female, and a fetus up to a certain stage may be re-absorbed, aborted, or held at a static point in its development; again, as willed. An elaborate thought-code, self-administered in a trance-like state (or simply a consistent desire, even if not conscious) will lead, over the course of about a year, to what amounts to a viral change from one sex into the other. The convention - tradition, even - in the Culture during the time of the stories written so far is that each person should give birth to one child in their lives. In practice, the population grows slowly. (And sporadically, in addition, for other reasons, as we'll come to later.)

"To us, perhaps, the idea of being able to find out what sex is like for our complimentary gender, or being able to get drunk/stoned/tripped-out or whatever just by thinking about it (and of course the Culture's drug-glands produce no unpleasant side-effects or physiological addiction) may seem like mere wish-fulfilment. And indeed it is partly wish-fulfilment, but then the fulfilment of wishes is both one of civilisation's most powerful drives and arguably one of its highest functions; we wish to live longer, we wish to live more comfortably, we wish to live with less anxiety and more enjoyment, less ignorance and more knowledge than our ancestors did... but the abilities to change sex and to alter one's brain-chemistry - without resort to external technology or any form of payment - both have more serious functions within the Culture. A society in which it is so easy to change sex will rapidly find out if it is treating one gender better than the other; within the population, over time, there will gradually be greater and greater numbers of the sex it is more rewarding to be, and so pressure for change - within society rather than the individuals - will presumably therefore build up until some form of sexual equality and hence numerical parity is established..."

"What if they didn't all switch in the same month? Kinda like in Ranma 1/2, when Ranma turns into a girl a bunch of the other boys stay male and some of them don't know he wasn't a girl his whole life."

Ah, sweeet, a reader who is acquainted with aspects of modern Japanese culture. Take note that much of the humor of Ranma 1/2 is derived from the fact that Ranma is for the most part, simply a macho man in a the body of a small girl. He only utilizes his "feminine" traits, often willing to become female, for selfish reasons such as gaining an advantage over his simple minded opponents like Kunoh, Happosai and Ryouga. Ranma, for all his positive qualities and tender side, remains a sexist bigot with a traditional mindset (including a fear of his mother) who does not accept women as his equal (even the wisened and invincible Colon, whom he calls old hag, and only turns to for gains in skills) or any martial artist greater than himself, and laments the weakness of his diminutive female form. His motivation throughout, is to permanently regain his "manliness" (also to make his traditionally minded mother proud, and avoid ritual suicide/execution, we later learn). Naturally, I accept Ranma 1/2, one of my favorite series, as humorous fiction, and hardly a role model or significant influence on members of real society.

"He only utilizes his 'feminine' traits, often willing to become female, for selfish reasons such as gaining an advantage over his simple minded opponents like Kunoh, Happosai and Ryouga."

Yeah, I was thinking of how Kuno tries to date the girl (not realizing she's Ranma) and Happosai gropes her chest (knowing she's female and not caring).

BTW, have you seen the fanfics in which he gets pregnant?

"Naturally, I accept Ranma 1/2, one of my favorite series, as humorous fiction, and hardly a role model or significant influence on members of real society."

Same here.

"BTW, have you seen the fanfics in which he gets pregnant?"

I have seen absolutely vile fanfics, doujinshi, and independent manga and anime. Enough to make me literally sick to my stomach when taken by surprise. Even the non hentai Genocyber gave me nightmares (I experienced flashbacks) for some time after a single viewing.

It is not a demand, but I am surprised feminists do not make a sweeping condemnation of increasingly popular Japanese manga and anime culture in the US. If they would protest tacky panties or T-shirts, I imagine they would justifiably rail against hentai, guro or lolicon. Guro also makes me want to hurl. Independent condemnations on forums, complaints to site webmasters, and reports to servers accomplishes little or nothing, as they simply spring up somewhere else.

Warning: NSFW and *extremely* disturbing. In addition, probably illegal under current "virtual child pornography" regulations, at least at the state level. Proceed at your own risk:

https://www.blogger.com/blogin.g?blogspotURL=http%3A%2F%2Fenglish-hentai.blogspot.com%2F
[click on the left button for "Agreed and proceed" if Japanese appears]

http://2kochan.com/index.php?page=main

"It is not a demand, but I am surprised feminists do not make a sweeping condemnation of increasingly popular Japanese manga and anime culture in the US. If they would protest tacky panties or T-shirts, I imagine they would justifiably rail against hentai, guro or lolicon."

What about non-hentai/guro/lolicon manga like Nana?

http://tcj.com/269/e_own1.html

"What about non-hentai/guro/lolicon manga like Nana?"

Considering the state of the society that produces "authentic" manga and anime, which I refer to in some ways as being stuck in the 1970s or even the 50s, and part of the reason I got my kids out of there; feminists and other human rights supporters would not be pleased in general at all about encroachments into US culture. Some YouTube viewers wonder who is flagging or taking down certain Japanese videos, such as racy "under 15" idols, or why. Well, duh.

"Considering the state of the society that produces 'authentic' manga and anime, which I refer to in some ways as being stuck in the 1970s or even the 50s, and part of the reason I got my kids out of there; feminists and other human rights supporters would not be pleased in general at all about encroachments into US culture."

I was thinking of how not all manga let alone all present-day Japanese culture is similar.

Likewise, there's a lot of machismo in some Latin American cultures (and don't forget the murders of women in Ciudad Juárez and Guatemala). Should feminists making a sweeping condemnation of increasingly popular Spanish music as an encroachment into US culture?

"I was thinking of how not all manga let alone all present-day Japanese culture is similar."

I know. "Some ways" and "in general." Not a lot of gender equity anime, manga or other visual forms of Japanese entertainment, in my 23 years of experience observing the genre, even in "ladies'" or "girls'" comics or magazines. Strong, smart, capable female leads, mm hmm. But they still probably represent Japanese ideals of physical beauty (likely to unrealistic extremes in anime and manga), and probably in need of the support or rescue by their men, or will end up with the man in the case of a happy ending. And objectionable aspects such as elements of many mainstream prime time entertainment game shows, variety shows, and comedies, or even lighthearted news segments, are most likely misogynist in nature. Just as, if not more objectionable than comparable elements of American culture.

"Should feminists making a sweeping condemnation of increasingly popular Spanish music as an encroachment into US culture?"

If there are misogynistic or sexist elements to it, they may, and I would be surprised if feminists knowingly did not. But I don't know anything about Hispanic or Latino music. OTOH, Japanese visual forms of entertainment have a definite misogynist or sexist element as real as any in the US, if not in the same form or cultural context.

Ah, look at me. Nearer to on topic. *Aspects* of American vs. foreign (Japanese) culture, as represented by leading love doll manufacturers.

Mina, see for example, the American "Real Doll," and the Real Doll gallery and body spec sheet. Representing adult women (maybe late teens to their 40s - That opening shot of Charlie looks in his 60s lol) despite their small size (4'10"-5'7" and 77-112 lbs.), and to some extent (dress size 4-12) within the boundaries of realistic or attainable standards of beauty, yes?

[Interestingly enough, the "Real Dolls" have become markedly lighter and thinner than before. When last I looked, they used to weigh up to 125 lbs. and have up to at least 36D or DD bust lines. But my point remains.]

http://www.realdoll.com/

Now compare the Real Doll to a Japanese leading product, the Orient Trading "Jewel Girl." I have seen others*. Please have a look at the manufacturer's or secondary retailers' own sites if you will.

http://www.orient-doll.com/

What is most striking about the Jewel girls, and the Petit Jewel in particular, despite having similar silicone construction? Look at their physical features including face, and physical dimensions: about 4'11" and 61 lbs. for the standard Jewel line, and 4'7", 50 lbs. for the Petit Jewel. Look at the level of physical development represented (Note: "F" is a newer, "bustier" line.) What age group would you say the dolls are made to represent? I say low to mid teen for the Petit, and high teen/young adult for the standard Jewel. See the non-"F" Petit Kirara in particular, and how she measures up next to the Petit Meg. After a lifetime among fellow Asian Americans, and 12 years in Japan teaching ages 4 to adults on a daily basis, I'd call non-"F" Kirara a tall 8-12 year old. (My own six year old daughter was 4'3" and 51 lbs. at an annual physical last Wednesday, and she represents the 75th percentile for her age.)

Why is it significant that after 30 years in the business, Orient Trading is bringing out a "new" line of "adult bodied" dolls, the Jewel Diva line, which are 5'4" tall, and 74 lbs., and appear to me to be in their mid 20s? [Note the voluptuous Rosa line is also a recent release.]

* I have also seen other lines of Japanese love dolls openly promoted online as being child form and size, sold dressed in kindergarten smock uniforms and yellow caps. Problematic at best if offered for sale in the US, hmm? If some people consider a man with his Real Doll girlfriend or a "Mariah Carey"/Tracy rent girl "creepy," what would they call the same man with a Jewel Petit Kirara or an even "younger" love doll?

Oh, my daughter turned seven.

Real Dolls have also become shorter than they were before. The shortest used to be 5'2" or 5'3", and the lightest nearly 20 lbs. heavier than the lightest of the current models - 96 lbs., IIRC.

"'I was thinking of how not all manga let alone all present-day Japanese culture is similar.'

"I know. 'Some ways' and 'in general.'"

Exactly!

"Some ways" and "in general" don't make a "sweeping condemnation" of a nationality + format combination make sense but instead totally justify a condemnation of the sexist items. Condemning misogynist Japanese comics along with the manga _Town of Evening Calm, Country of Cherry Blossoms_ and not along with misogynist American comics, misogynist Korean comics, etc. misses the point. Condemning the promotion of sexual violence no matter if it's in a Japanese comic or an American magazine is right on target! Likewise, my parents didn't return to Iran after having me, they condemn the sexism in Iran, and they don't also ask me to condemn the increasing popularity of Iranian films in America even though some of those movies suck.

As I said before in response to another post:

"If we don't lump together all Muslims' customs together and don't lump together all Westerners' customs together

in the first place, then we totally take the wind out of the 'you're a hypocrite because domestic violence

happens in Canada too!!!' sails."

That still applies even if the non-Westerners in question are some other group instead of Muslims.

"Mina, see for example, the American 'Real Doll,' and the Real Doll gallery and body spec sheet. "

Oh, no doubt the Japanese "Real Doll" market is more misogynist, and more anti-child, than the American version.

I mean, yuck.

In this case, the "poor things need help dating the human version" thing doesn't apply at all and those guys belong in the dating pool even less than the ones using adult-size dolls. I hope they stay far, far away from even trying to date actual girls but sadly I wouldn't be surprised if some use the dolls to practice attacking actual girls. >:( Also, shortly after reading your post I saw this on MetaFilter: http://www.metafilter.com/67974/My-Fake-Baby#1967110 o_O

Meanwhile, is my disgust and disapproval of simulating rape any reason for me to stop liking the manga _Nausicäa_

too?

For another example, remember the post about an "honor killing" in Chicago by a Punjabi immigrant? Jessica

titled it "Tell me again how patriarchy is a good thing?" instead of "Tell me again how Punjabi culture is a good thing?" Many of us made sweeping condemnations of patriarchy including Punjabi violence and American violence, rather than sweeping condemnations of Punjabi culture including patriarchial violence and bhangra dhol drumming.

"But they still probably represent Japanese ideals of physical beauty (likely to unrealistic extremes in anime and manga)"

If I wanted to condemn the sight of unrealistic ideals of physical beauty, I'd have to start with the sight of all the real-life women and girls whose bodies meet "beauty standards" much more than my body ever can. After all, I'm surrounded by (and seen in the context of) them in everyday life infinitely more than I'm seen in magazines next to fashion models. I'd also have to completely veil myself whenever I go out in public, since some other women and girls' bodies are even further away from those standards than mine is and even I could be an unrealistic ideal to them.

BTW, complaining about unrealistic beauty standards is often another case of missing the point. For example, when someone hiring an accountant thinks "she's great at math but she's too fat to be sexy so she's not sexy enough to be an accountant," the "not sexy enough to be an accountant" part is the real problem (besides, spreading the word that accounting doesn't require sexiness seems more likely to actually work against workplace discrimination than telling employers to adjust their sexual preferences is).

Oops, sorry about the line breaks glitch!

"Oh, no doubt the Japanese "Real Doll" market is more misogynist, and more anti-child, than the American version."

No, I mean they like them young(er), and that aspect of the culture is much more in the open than in the US, if not actual mainstream. I am disturbed by the US growth of the youth and teen modeling industry in the past few years. This unapologetic idolization and sexualization of girls, was part of what I hated in Japan.

I am not promoting a sweeping condemnation of the Japanese, I brought up anime and manga introduced to the US market, and a possible feminist reaction if they ever looked into it. And since you bring up American media, that is exactly what I mean. Feminists do speak and act against American media (I am not sure what they do about comics, though there would be a whole lot of work), have done so for decades for their portrayals of women or promotion of misogyny, sex, violence, and unrealistic standards of beauty, a condemnation as sweeping, broad or narrow as *they* (not I) deem necessary to make their point. Japanese forms of visual entertainment including manga have been making their own inroads since the mid 1980's. The fact that we live with political correctness or that they are foreign, does not mean they are untouchable. Thus I am surprised there is not a similar movement in reaction to them, or inclusion of them as part of objectionable US media.

"No, I mean they like them young(er),"

Yeah, that's why I said anti-child as well as misogynist.

"a condemnation as sweeping, broad or narrow as *they* (not I) deem necessary to make their point."

BTW, there's some disagreement among us feminists over how sweeping these condemnations need to be.

"The fact that we live with political correctness or that they are foreign, does not mean they are untouchable."

So true.

"Thus I am surprised there is not a similar movement in reaction to them, or inclusion of them as part of objectionable US media."

I thought objections to sexist U.S. media already include sexist U.S. media that are translations of foreign media.

I knew that there was a reason as to why I am anti-sex toy (I'm even more furious at the bans Texas, Georgia, and Alabama put in place).

I'm not at all surprised that Real Dolls has decided to go to a brand new low. It reeks of Pimpmaster.