Uh oh: Feminist stereotype alert
The oh-so-enlightened show Wife Swap is featuring a "fanatical feminist" (cue scary music) in their season premiere.
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Hum... makes you wonder what the other woman will be like.
Maybe born-again christian with traditional values and 8 children?
some "fanatical feminist" she is if she has given in to the patriarchal institutions of marriage, network television and reality shows.
Just FYI, Faerylore, the video preview shows the other wife to be a pageant mom who does her daughter's homework and chores for her, keeps a Christmas tree up year round "because everyday is like Christmas" for her daughter, and basically raised a spoiled brat who can get away with everything because of her looks. If the preview is any indication, the feminist comes off looking good, REAL good. That may not have been their intention (wife swap, like all reality shows, deliberately cuts their videos with bias to create drama and tension), but by comparison the feminist just seems normal. Hard to say if the show will come off that well, the few times I have seen snippets of the show, everyone seems like cartoon sterotypes, with usually one painted as "the bad guy". Hopefully it won't be the feminist this time.
that was tongue-in-cheek.
on a more serious note, i saw the preview, and her opponent is blonde and pageant-pretty, while the FF is, of course, rather large and dumpy-looking. because all feminists look like men, and all pretty women don't care about improving women's position in the world.
hum. thanks Jacqueline! Yeah I agree, I'm sure they'll edit whatever might be left of 'reality' outta that show before it goes on air.
Yeah, looking at the preview it looks like the feminist is the good guy, and is trying to get the spoiled brat to see that she is, in fact, a spoiled brat, and the dad to understand that that's poor parenting. With a girl that spoiled she'll probably come across as a "tough love" type at most.
invisible_hand: Maybe it's just me but the feminist mother looked much more attractive than the scary, decrepit-looking pageant mom. Of course she's not going to look like the 15-year-old, we really can't compare the two. She looks like a normal mom.
Also, I'm sitting here thinking, "Uhm, duh, pageant mom, you just admitted on national television that your daughter never does her homework and you enable her to cheat. You do realize that she won't be allowed to graduate high school now, right?"
Idiots.
How do they find these people??? Or rather, why do these people volunteer to be shown on national television?
I couldn't get the video to run, but isn't that the point of reality shows?
To reduce people to stereotypes, to portray regular people as evil and incompetent and generally imply that they need to be controlled by a strong Christian leader?
Reality shows are totally Orwellian and appeal to the worst impulses of viewers.
Yeah, it's pretty hilarious that she divulged doing her daughters homework on national TV...
I have never seen this show, so I might not have a leg to stand on, but from the previews it seems as if it is all the mother's fault. Since the wife is the one who gets swapped(maybe they do husband swap, I don't know) it makes the point that the wife/mother screws up the kid/family life, and only another woman can try to fix this. It doesn't show the husband and wife in concert making decisions about how they want to raise their kid. To me the previews allowed the husband to be equal in maturity to the kid(not stepping up to his responsibility as a father and adult!) and also place the blame on the mother for screwing up her kid.
That's the impression I got too, erin. It seems very insulting to both men and women. Why anyone would choose to participate in something like this is beyond me. Do they get paid or something?
Yes, Manda, they get paid very well. Something like $50,000 I think. But then again, there are two of these kinds of shows -- Wife Swap and Changing Spouses, I believe -- so I could be getting them confused. But I'd be very surprised if both of them didn't end in a cash reward. I've only ever seen one episode -- the infamous one with the fanatical Christian woman who nearly sent herself into a nervous breakdown over the other family's (very benign) pagan rituals.
Cara, you aren't confused. Families do get paid for participating,and also for refering other families who eventually participate.
I've never seen the show, but read this piece by a family that was asked to participate:
www.livinmagazine.com/2007/10/31/wife-swapping/
I very much agree with you gals that the "fanatical feminist" seems to be the normal one, but if I'm right and no dramatic changes have occurred in the five years I've been out of high school, a significant portion of America might identify with Blondie.
cantdance: Thanks for posting that link! I've bookmarked the page so I can read Mr Jeffries' future columns, too.
But don't you think it's strange that the casting producer e-mailed Mr Jeffries and not Mrs Jeffries, even though she is the one that would be leaving for two weeks?
I don't usually watch TV, but I'm somewhat interested in watching the beauty queen / feminist episode of "Wife Swap", just to see how stereotypically the people act. I wonder if some of the scenes are scripted, just to make the people seem even more stupid/mean/etc.
That looked awesome!
The feminist Mom is a overweight but she was well put together - not dumpy. The Pagent Mom looks like an idiot who is raising a monster.
That show is actually pretty interesting. In the end, 2 families of radically different values and backgrounds get an opportunity to see how the other side lives. Sometimes it actually works out well. I haven't seen it that many times but it's generally interesting and sometimes they have super crazy people like the Jesus freak who thought her 'other' family was possesed by the devil.
I predict the season opener will show that there is a lot to be said for feminism - yay!
Basically, Wife Swap should be renamed "Watch The Bitch Get It" because that is what is really is about. It is really worse than the Bachelor or Top Model because you have that comparison that a wife is something swapable - ya never have Husband Swap as the focus. Because really, aren't husbands, except for their money, not really present at home? (I am being totally sarcastic.)
You have your uptight bitch pitted against loose bitch; the bitch that "love my kids, never talk about my kids" and the "cold" bitch that is not attached to her kids with velcro. Really, it should be a new year's resolution that the show should go.
The feminist appears to be making a solid attempt to give that little pissant a dose of reality by teaching her some values that her sorry-assed parents have yet to instill in her. Good on the feminist (of course), though I agree that the portrayal of participants in the Movement is typical of what we see in the media.
I'm anxious to see how big a dose of reality the kid gets, what she learns from it, and what light the lady's actions sheds on the Movement.
I'm not certain about the context of the clip but why does the woman, who is tagged a "fanatical feminist", demand that the girl drop pageants and study?
Some people are better off using their looks than they are their brains or lack thereof.
Adrienne Curry is a great example. She received $2 million to pose in Playboy so her choice to pursue looks over brains made economic sense.
and when adrianne curry is too old to get paid to model and too passe to get reality show deals, she's going to have to look for another D-lister to marry to pay her mortgage.
also, that girl is a pageanthead, not a runway model and the two are VERY different things. there's nothing wrong with using one's looks to earn a living at some point, but isn't she a bit too young to write off all other pursuits? at that age she should be given a good education and encouraged to be as well-rounded as possible. she's not lindsay lohan; it's not practical to write off ever having to know anything or use her brain for a livelihood (and neither is it, in my opinion, conducive to raising a person of substance to allow such a young person to forego all activities that require more than two brain cells to rub together).
Basiorana, I wouldn't worry about her not being able to graduate high school. I'm sure that the school is well aware that they'd be sued if they attempted to take any such action.
Some people are better off using their looks than they are their brains or lack thereof.
Our looks are a fact of our existence and shouldn't require cultivation. Our minds, whether we are very smart or just average, need to be developed. If pretty people are discouraged from educating themselves they become dependent and can be easily exploited. I believe the philosophy underlying your post explains the presence of so many women in the porn industry, while so few of them manage to rake in the millions of dollars being made off of their bodies.
In the real world, stupidity is tantamount to helplessness. You can't have seriously been advocating that pretty girls should remain stupid and coast on their looks though, so perhaps I'll let it go.
That is no feminist. That woman is more like Andrea Dworkin.
She does look rather fat...
Ok, so this is getting on my nerves!
She agreed to be on Wife Swap and is a feminist? Something about that doesn't add up.
Hey, KIM7813, I'm fat. Size 18/20. Does that mean I shouldn't be a feminist because I happen to fit into one part of the stereotype? Or are you just one of those sizeist types that thinks everyone needs to be a size 6?
"Our looks are a fact of our existence and shouldn't require cultivation. Our minds, whether we are very smart or just average, need to be developed."
I don't think it's inherently a bad thing to cultivate one's looks, within sane limits. However, brains and personality are much less perishable than looks. Someone who's pouring all of their resources into enhancing their personal beauty isn't going to have anything left when, despite all of their efforts, that beauty fades.
Daddy, I want an oompa loompa! I want an oompa loompa now, Daddy!
In all seriousness though, my only problem is the way that this season premiere (sp?) is being marketed. Why is what should be considered normal parenting labeled "fanatic feminism"?
And I thought the same thing in regards to the girl's mother doing her homework for her. That girl won't be able to graduate from high school now that her teachers will all know that her parents do her homework for her.
erin said: Since the wife is the one who gets swapped... it makes the point that the wife/mother screws up the kid/family life, and only another woman can try to fix this.--
In watching this show a few times, the husband doesn't always get off the hook. It's always a weird dynamic, which the producers of the show exploit, especially on Fox's Changing Spouses.
Sometimes the wife is an understanding partner and parent who moves into a house of some lazy slob who parks himself on the couch. Then she transforms him into a wonderful father and husband in the course of an hour. Miracle!
Then sometimes there's a self-centered mother who sees the error of her ways by a father.
More often then not, however, it is just a show of unending conflict as drastically types of families are mashed together and claw at each other's throats. Makes great TV, but I always feel dirty after watching it.
"She does look rather fat..."
oh...my...god...
"Some people are better off using their looks than they are their brains or lack thereof.
Adrienne Curry is a great example. She received $2 million to pose in Playboy so her choice to pursue looks over brains made economic sense."
again. oh...my...god...
Please tell me this is a joke. Please. Please.
I have so much i want to say but right now I am so angry that I can't even think or type straight.
GAAHHHHhihgongngog/..whjwhjr'wqhjrhl.bewrjE
People who are getting all vitriolic here - I really haven't found this show to be overly sexist. Really. It's about the only reality TV that I can watch without throwing things (though sometimes it happens lol)
I admit I've only seen the US version once, have seen a lot more of the UK version. It annoys me (a) that they're always to antagonistic during rule-change week and (b) they cut it SO much, the shows are all very similar because they cut them all the same!
But sometimes it's really amusing, and in the case of the one American one there was a rich Italian-American woman swapped with an ultra-hippy woman whose husband and son have long hair and wears skirts, and they live off what they can scavenge and sell on.
The hippy woman actually manages to show the wanker husband how incredibly demanding he is on his wife and make him learn some empathy which was totally shocking, and when the rich woman forces the hippy husband (god, how categorical of me) to get a job and they're all shocked how this guy with waist length hair and a stoner attitude is a fantastic employee I was very gleeful.
Sometimes it's downright painful, but it's basically about making everyone look like arses and having some sort of definitive change real or manufactured after the swap, and not especially sexist IMO
Actually, she's EXTREMELY FAT. She looks too much like a blob.
As for me, I'm overweight too, but I'm rather slim compared to the feminist shown in that preview.
I find it even sadder that she acts more like Andrea Dworkin than us. WAKE UP, AMERICA! Not all feminists hate being sexy. We're sexy within sane limits.
Seeing the debates on here - it just made me realize that the show is simply pitting women against each other. "Oh, look at the hot little blonde and the old feminist scream and yell at each other."
Shit like that divides us, not unites us, as feminists.
I think KIM is a troll, trying to get us mad.
And, Andrea Dworkin is a feminist.
I think people are mad because feminists are always portrayed as fat. Why couldn't they have found a "conventionally attractive", skinny, blonde feminist to counter the pageant mom? Why is the fanatical feminist the fat feminist?
I'm sure we're all into fat acceptance and whatnot here, but the rest of the US isn't. So the smart mom has to be "ugly". Way to go stereotypes.
What I'm hearing every time someone expresses dismay that the woman is fat is, "Damn, why don't all the fat women just disappear? Don't they know they make us look bad?"
And fuck that. Fuck anyone who even suggests it and fuck anyone who forms an opinion about this woman before they hear the quality of what she has to say. You are all part of the problem.
Geeky_Girl, so what we should just bend to the pressure of the stereotype? Is it wrong to accept her the way she is? As I said before, It's not her fault she "fits" into the stereotype. It's those that make, adhere, and uphold stereotypes that hurt us!
Also, consider the fact that if she was beauty-industry approved people would focus on her looks say things like "Oh, she's too pretty to be a feminist".
WE should all know that beauty standards are set up so that nearly everyone falls short and should feel like a failure. You can't win for losing.
SHE is not the stereotype. People are placing the stereotype UPON her!
I mean it's almost like people are saying "Omg, she fat and a feminist? Now ppl will think feminists are fat! OH NOES! What're we going to do?"
I can't believe this.
I'm referring to the fact that Andrea Dworkin was an ANTI-PORN feminist.
In fact, feminists like us would do what we want to empower ourselves.
We can have sex with men or women and not feel guilted in a phallocentric patriarchy as long as we're confident in ourselves not to give in to archaic, sexist notions.
We can model for a centerfold and be seen as more than "a slut": We can be seen as confident.
We can participate in contests that either judge us by how beautiful on the outside OR the inside.
And I'm not trying to be a troll. I find it harder that you can blow my commentary out of proportions.
Not all feminists hate being sexy. We're sexy within sane limits.
Oh yeah, this is a real feminist statement.
Who says *any* feminists "hate" being sexy? You're basically defining "sexy" as "not fat."
And how do you define these "sane limits" of sexiness? Let me guess: the patriarchy-approved brand?
Good for you for being sexayyy. Lord knows that's the most important thing about a woman.
The feminist arguments get mixed up with the fat aguments some times. But I'd be kind of curious to see who they cast as the 'fanatical feminist'. If they're not that fanatical, they may come off really well to the average viewer. On the other hand, if they are really fat, that will probably not reflect well on feminism. Its not fair that we judge people for being fat, but its expecting too much of Americans to look past that on a lowest common denominator reality tv show. We don't like to view really fat people or really ugly people. And there is a difference between an overweight and not very sexy, but nice looking woman and a really obese person. If the show represents feminism as being really obese and looking really bad- that will not win anyone over to the cause of feminism and that would be unfortunate. If you're really obese I can imagine you would disagree, but I think feminims sans obesity has a better chance of making progess in the public mind and I think its a more important cause to boot.
Kmari1222 ~
"I have so much i want to say but right now I am so angry that I can't even think or type straight.
GAAHHHHhihgongngog/..whjwhjr'wqhjrhl.bewrjE"
Way to perpetuate the stereotype that we're all emotional creatures incapable of forming a rational, coherent argument.
My point isn't that smart girls or even average girls should foresake education for the pursuit of modeling.
My point is that there is a certain percentage of the population that is dumber than dirt and education is a lost cause on them.
Given the choice between being a waitress, a cashier at Walmart, or taking my clothes off for $2 million dollars, I'd have to say the $2 million would be the way to go.
"Way to perpetuate the stereotype that we're all emotional creatures incapable of forming a rational, coherent argument"
No seriously. I really really hope you are kidding, for your sake. I COULD say, "way to perpetuate the stereotype that we're all moody bitches" but I won't.
"We can model for a centerfold and be seen as more than "a slut": We can be seen as confident."
As for this, I'm a little confused. It's ok to pose for a centerfold to be "empowered" but then we get mad when men objectify women (including centerfolds)? Is being in a porn magazine like that not supporting the objectification of women?
And just because a feminist is anti-porn doesn't mean shit. We weren't even talking about porn on this thread.
ekswitaj: A court would laugh if parents tried to sue a school because they helped their daughter cheat. If it happened in college, she would have been instantly expelled, no second chances. My high school would have failed her, and every court would have backed that decision.
Should she be forced to give up pageants? Eh. I don't know. I strongly dislike pageants but it's a free country. However, these parents have taught their child 1) She doesn't need to have any actual skills, academic or even basic housekeeping, to survive in the world; 2) people will give her whatever she wants, and SHOULD give her whatever she wants, and if they don't they're a big meanie; and 3) cheating and breaking the rules is okay.
Honestly, banning the pageants might be more of a way to try and make this kid see that she will not survive in the real world if she continues with that horrible sense of entitlement. I don't view it so much as a case of "I hate sexiness and people who market their beauty" as "I hate people who assume that value is determined only by physical appearance and that all other skills are less in comparison to beauty."
mpowell said
If the show represents feminism as being really obese and looking really bad- that will not win anyone over to the cause of feminism and that would be unfortunate. If you're really obese I can imagine you would disagree, but I think feminims sans obesity has a better chance of making progess in the public mind and I think its a more important cause to boot.
So b/c the "general public" of America relies on stereotypes and the beauty industry standards, Feminists should give into those in order to make people more comfortable with being feminists?
Are you fucking kidding me?
So b/c fat feminists would make America's boner limp, we should hide them away and trot out the hot feminists to attract more people? What kind of people?
Something tells me that a person who goes "Oh shit, hot feminists! What was I waiting for? I'm gonna sign up for NOW!" If the argument that wins them over is the fact that there are "attractive" feminists, then I'm not quite sure they'd really agree with feminist principles in the first place!
You have got fucking kidding me!
Well, I broke down and actually watched the show. In spite of the fact that they obviously encourage all participants to be as crazy as possible the feminist came off rather well in an impossible circumstance. Pageant Mom was fairly impossible, but in a run-of-the-mill way.
Pageant Dad though? He creeped me out. He looked, smelled, walked, and talked like a child molester to me, which would go part-way to explaining his obsession with his child's looks, dependence, and helplessness. Maybe it wasn't happening, but I got a definite vibe.
Also, if I had been Feminist Mom I would have tried to get Pageant Daughter tested for a learning disability.
All in all Feminist Mom was fine. I think more of the conflict in values between families came from the Feminist family's Quaker faith than the feminism. Not that the Quakerism was a bad thing, it's just that people who pledge to live a simple life will not mesh well with unreconstructed materialists.
Their 13 year old was perhaps socially awkward, but I also thought she was pretty awesome. The social weirdness will melt away in college and she'll just be a brilliant, confident person. Nothing wrong with that.
1. Who else actually watched the show? I see sgzax did. (Btw, your LD comment was interesting, sg, and maybe the kid was dyslexic; despite the poss. LD, though, she came off as pretty smart to me - I was shocked at her handwriting and spelling but impressed that she was as articulate as she was given the fact that her parents were working as hard as possible to stymy her education and intellectual growth.)
-I wonder if anyone's perspective on Angie the Feminist's weight would change if they knew she'd coauthored a book on PCOS and is likely a PCOS sufferer. Obesity is frequently a side effect of PCOS. Would any of the blamey vibe of this whole trainwreck thread decrease if people found out it "wasn't her fault"? Or would the assertion that fat women should cease to exist continue uninterrupted?
3.) Seriously, WHY is her weight a topic of discussion? What the everloving crap is that? I thought the way she came off on the show was frankly awesome and that there was a ton to discuss in the show, both in terms of the stuff she said (she was really articulate and well-spoken) and in terms of the way she was presented; and people are talking about her WEIGHT?! What the hell?
4.) And a special "wtf" to you, Kim, for arbitrarily determining the "sane limits" to "sexiness". "Adhere to conventional and fundamentally unnatural standards of physical attractiveness that society imposes on you, within reasonable limits!" - piss all over that.
1. Who else actually watched the show? I see sgzax did. (Btw, your LD comment was interesting, sg, and maybe the kid was dyslexic; despite the poss. LD, though, she came off as pretty smart to me - I was shocked at her handwriting and spelling but impressed that she was as articulate as she was given the fact that her parents were working as hard as possible to stymy her education and intellectual growth.)
-I wonder if anyone's perspective on Angie the Feminist's weight would change if they knew she'd coauthored a book on PCOS and is likely a PCOS sufferer. Obesity is frequently a side effect of PCOS. Would any of the blamey vibe of this whole trainwreck thread decrease if people found out it "wasn't her fault"? Or would the assertion that fat women should cease to exist continue uninterrupted?
3.) Seriously, WHY is her weight a topic of discussion? What the everloving crap is that? I thought the way she came off on the show was frankly awesome and that there was a ton to discuss in the show, both in terms of the stuff she said (she was really articulate and well-spoken) and in terms of the way she was presented; and people are talking about her WEIGHT?! What the hell?
4.) And a special "wtf" to you, Kim, for arbitrarily determining the "sane limits" to "sexiness". "Adhere to conventional and fundamentally unnatural standards of physical attractiveness that society imposes on you, within reasonable limits!" - piss all over that.
Um...hi all.
This is an interesting discussion...and I love the oriny that of all the discussions happening about the show this is the only place discussing we weight...fat blob? ouch
Let me try again - no glasses and a little one on my lap makes my spelling look like Alicia's.
Anyway...I'd like to talk about the rest of the show if anyone is not interested in my weight..
Regards, Angie
Angie, if you are the woman from Wife Swap, please note that the majority of (regular) Feministing commenters are NOT interested in your physical appearance. Most of us are defending you for your views, and not paying much mind to how you look.
Kudos!
Oops...a little help from the littlest one on my lap.
Here are some things you might not know..
My name is hyphnated Best-Boss, but they dropped tat on the show and my other job is a batterer intervention program facilitator - I work with the guys who abuse their partners. I say my clients are their partners, I just happen to work with the men. Again, too much for ABC to handle-so they dropped that part of my life.
I was kind of hoping the fat thing would ease off once some people had watched the actual show. It really had better, because I'm enraged by the suggestion that some people are less worthy than others just because of their failure to fit a narrow definition of what is acceptable. On a Feminist site. Nice.
About the show:
I would be interested to know whether Feminist Mom had been coached by the producing staff to rip up that picture, because it was the only unreasonable decision she made. In every other instance she was lovely toward the Pageant Daughter and she had some great ideas to get her to see that there were some other things she could be doing.
It was kind of tragic to see Pageant Daughter revert when the Swap was over, but I guess it's part of the cycle of abuse that the victim has to placate his/her abuser. She has to live with her Dad, and I suppose I shouldn't judge the girl for her survival mechanisms.
Another observation: the show is such an unnatural construct. Did anyone notice that the Feminist family's younger wanna-be Princess daughter already had fancy dress-up clothing for play before the swap took place? And make-up? Which means that her family was already allowing her to play dress-up and the great "accomplishment" of the Pageant Mom in getting them to allow sparkly behavior, or whatever, was a fiction constructed by the producers. Ah, reality TV.
Thanks Sarah...other tidbits, one of my rules was to protest a beauty pageant in Buffalo that weekend, but ABC nixed it.
I also wanted to teach her to change a flat, and Alicia said yes, but Ralph nixed it. So, for me, the frustrating part was that her new "feminist" life was spent cooking and serving others...not exactly what I had hoped for
It's so enraging that as much as anti-feminists whine about women "using" men, they actively attempt to keep them dependent on men. So they're protesting against things of their own doing.
Like the changing the flat thing.
The photo was a copy - which Ralph knew - notice he didn't give a crap about me ripping it.
I told Alicia later that day that it was a copy and the producers were honked off - but that didn't make it on their air. I do wish I hadn't ripped it.
And great for noticing that Clara already had a full dress-up box. Of course, it also has a doctor's lab coat and firefighter's hat, which she steadfastly ignores.
When Feminist Daughter was learning Latin at the end I turned to my husband and said, "We have to raise our daughter to be like that." But then we admitted to each other that our laziness might get in the way of the great project just a bit.
I watched the show last night because I was interested after seeing mention of it here, and I am enjoying Angie's inside scoop right now.
I also read many of the message boards at abc this morning. I was expecting to find a real mix of feedback, but many, many people are appalled by the pagaent family. Angie's eldest (Katelyn?) has been called "awesome", and "my new hero". There were also comments that "I want my daughter to be just like her!" This makes me happy that intelligence and self sufficiency are considered good things by mainstream America.
New friends,
You have made my daughter's morning. She was concerned that she appeared socially awkward (after all there were no shots of her with her group of friends-just the artifically constructed ones with the crew)-she has been really encouraged by the positive feedback she's gotten so far.
Alicia was willing to appear on camera without makeup (another one of my rules) but dad nixed that one,too. And he was just as creepy as he looked. In fact, he said, "Sex sells and my daughter is a product." But not clean enough for ABC
Anything else you want to know?
I didn't realize ABC was allowed to override your rule decisions! Geez.
Could it be any more clear that pageantry is child abuse? I wish that dad would get a visit from CPS. Fucker.
I'd venture a guess that he's sexually abusive.
I wonder if any WifeSwap participants have ever called CPS? I really think Pageant family would benefit from a visit.
I did watch the show cause, well, I wanted to see how it turned out.
I was really impressed Angie! Especially by the way you kept such a cool head when trying to communicate with the other father. I don't know if I could've done the same...I was kinda screaming at the TV
Also, I figured out that it was a copy! You didn't come off like a person who would rip up the OG picture w/o the father's knowledge.
I was also very impressed and inspired by your eldest daughter. She was great! She opened to the new experience, but firmly asserted her boundaries. If I ever have a daughter, I'd want her to be like that.
It was sad the way the other parents enabled their girl. I really do hope she's doing her own homework.
Angie, if I were you I'd have been terrified that the producers would twist everything I said/did so to make me out to be a "feminazi," and giving people a warped perception of feminists.
Luckily that didn't happen, but were you worried they'd misrepresent you?
I watched the show, and thought that Angie was a wonderful example of what I would like to be like if I ever become a mother. I was also especially impressed by her ability to (attempt to) communicate with the girl's misogynistic father in a calm manner, because some of the things he was saying were making me physically sick just to watch on television.
Angie, I really admire what you were able to accomplish with that teenage girl, and I hope that she really was able to take something from her experience with you. Her face when you told her that you were proud of her was a wonderful thing to see. It is unfortunate that you didn't get to make all of the "rules" that you wanted to, but the little bit of leeway that ABC did give you was inspiring to watch. I agree that it would have been nice if most (all?) of her learning experiences hadn't been related to cooking or serving others, but I really hope that she gained as much confidence in herself as an actual human being as she seemed to.
And add me to the chorus of voices who absolutely LOVED your oldest daughter and her attitude about life!
Also, on a note unrelated to the show, I think it is absolutely wonderful that you work with the partners of battered women. Thank you for the fantastic and important work that you do.
"Could it be any more clear that pageantry is child abuse?"
Particularly pageants nationwide for young girls, where they dress, smile, pout and strut like sex objects, such as those JonBenet Ramsey participated in; with the kind of families akin to what I referred to, who consider their children "real dolls." Also, many of the "young and teen fashion" or child and teen modeling pay sites, which also sell photo collections and videos.
Angie,
Your girls rocked, especially the oldest! Her maturity and intelligence were inspirational, that girl had so much natural "sparkle" that she doesn't need any of the artificial stuff! You must be so proud!
I have to admit, I was worried about how you would be portrayed, but was impressed. Pageant dad was a jerk and I thought that you handled him nicely.
I went over and looked at the WifeSwap discussion boards. I'm happy to say that the mass of people commenting were supportive of the feminist family and horrified by the pageant family.
I'm also not the only one who smelled a child molester in Pageant Dad. I hope someone in Pageant Daughter's school saw the episode and figures out how to reach out to her.
Does anyone know if this particular episode is streaming anywhere? I really wanted to see it, but one of my best friends is leaving for Iraq and her farewell dinner was last night, so I missed it.
Thanks!
i have decided not to breed for a myriad of reasons...
but, in a parallel universe where i do, how these girls are raised is EXACTLY how i would go about it.
angie, thank you for raising what will become strong, independent women.
your eldest, i am sure, will become a microbiologist that helps cure something...
and i LOVE how you accepted your middle child's desire to play dress-up even though it's not your thing.
shows that you trust your daughters to make decisions for themselves.
thank you.
The sexy within sane limits is actually I'm referring to is that we don't put up with disembodies parts of women or the idea of doing something we're uncomfortable with...This is what I was trying to say.
Thanks for the clarification, Kim, because I didn't get that when you said:
That is no feminist. That woman is more like Andrea Dworkin. She does look rather fat...
or...
Actually, she's EXTREMELY FAT. She looks too much like a blob.
So now that you've regained your sanity you do understand why everyone else took offense? Oh, good.
Had to watch the show - mind you with a lot of reservation - but I was very impressed with how Angie kept her cool. Like someone else mentioned, I would've lost it completely on that creep. That a-hole ordering her to the room, calling her names, insulting his daughter...he is a disgusting father. One of the things that came to mind is, gee, whatever therapist this girl ends up with...jackpot $!
Also, just like others, I absolutely adored the oldest girl, and even the middle one (when she hit the table and told both adults to stop arguing I had to cheer for her).
But going back to the level of patience I wouldn't have had - I admired that.
Now, to KIM, et al. I am really fucking tired of weight getting dragged into a lot of threads when it has nothing to do with the original topic. NOTHING. Keep those damn comments to yourself.
"3.) Seriously, WHY is her weight a topic of discussion? What the everloving crap is that? I thought the way she came off on the show was frankly awesome and that there was a ton to discuss in the show, both in terms of the stuff she said (she was really articulate and well-spoken) and in terms of the way she was presented; and people are talking about her WEIGHT?! What the hell?"
My thoughts exactly, Kylie.
My last two emails...
one from Bitch mag requesting an interview and the other from a beauty pageant director with an invitation for Clara to come crown other princesses.
It's like a twilight zone out here guys....
Hello, angieboss
Are you a regular here?
Bless you for your work. I've heard some truly terrible stories from staff and victims at the local women and children's shelter. May I ask your opinion about counseling and therapy (in addition to TROs) vs. immediate arrest of abusers? What is your experience with women as abusers?
I love you angie.
Thank you for your kind words.
I don't work with women - it's more difficult to find folks to work with the guys. I will say my program has 7 classes a week for men and only 1 for women. I haven't been in the field long enough to have an educated opinion, but my intuition and limited experience tells me jail and then cognitive accountability training together stand the best chance of success. Research is murky here.
It was pretty important to me for the guys to see me act carefully and intentionally without losing control when Ralph was attacking me. They need to know you can feel afraid or threatened and still act with integrity.
I'm still learning...
I have been a regular lurker, but never posted before.
Actually, the only reason everyone was commenting on how fat she is was because it was overly obvious.
That's the problem, if you're fat, people tend to overstate the obvious.
I am actually trying to curb that habit of pointing out the obvious, but it's hard.
Also, I have weight problems, but it's not that out of control. I've been trying to control my weight for health.
"Actually, the only reason everyone was commenting on how fat she is was because it was overly obvious."
Considering 38-60% of Americans are either "overweight" or "obese" by new and old federal government standards, I did not consider her "fat," and not worth mentioning. So she is a realistic looking woman, not a would be Barbie doll portrayed as a spoiled fool like that family's daughter. I wonder what that daughter's reaction will be when she fills out.
You should see what is considered "fat" in a hospital, as in, unable to move unaided, threatening the health of my back; or requiring a crew of firefighters to assist male and female nurses to get a female patient off a toilet. It happens in my community, and my classmate (male) was one of those who had to call 911 for a woman stuck on a toilet in her room. That is heavy.
I personally was completely creeped out when that dad was doing the spray tan on his daughter. There were a lot of gross moments with that guy, but that seemed to sum things up for me.
I've been a lurker like Angie but have decided to start participating (New Years!) and wanted to weigh in with the others here and say Kaylyn was so poised and awesome, and I'll bet she's going to grow up to be an amazing, inspirational woman. I thought you were great, Angie.
Kim: "Actually, the only reason everyone was commenting on how fat she is was because it was overly obvious." Who, exactly, is everyone? You seem to be dominating the fat comments on this thread. Just because you are fixated on peoples’ weights, doesn’t mean the rest of us are. When I first saw the preview, I was really pleased that ABC actually exhibited a normal looking mom, rather than that desperate housewives crap.
All these comments about appearance definitely disgusted me, considering what this website is supposed to be about.
However, let me add to everyone else in saying: Great Job Angie! I was really impressed by your patience and your open mind. I wish you more success with both your career and your family.
UPDATE: Here's a video clip of the beauty queen daughter. Seems like she lives in a bubble of her own beauty.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/04/this-weeks-must-see-vide_n_79615.html
It's the first clip on this HuffPost page
Angie, I was extremely impressed with how you handled yourself on WifeSwap. I hard a hard time just watching that family, I cannot imagine what it was like to live there for two weeks! I found myself crying for that poor girl, she's missing so much and she doesn't even realize it.
I was also extremely impressed with your daughters and with your husband! They all came off really well and handled their side of the challenge amazingly.
ABC portrayed your family's homeschool as being solely for feminist reasons, but I suspect it also has a lot to do with your religious beliefs as well. Am I right? I was disappointed that that aspect was left out because I think the Quaker element could have added more dimension and it's something that even a lot of other Christians aren't familiar with.
Your middle daughter winning the pageant was a bit of a surprise, only because she didn't have the years of brainwashing- I mean training- in all the artificial smiling and posing that is involved in pageantry. Was the win influenced by ABC? I thought she was going to lose, be in tears, and learn that being judged my her looks sucked. I still can't decide if the win was a good thing. Do you feel like it negatively re-enforced that being judged on superficials is a positive?
Thanks for posting here!
I still don't know about the pageant - I haven't heard the whole story. I suspect she just won one of the categories. I agree with you - it's soty of lose-lose. If she won, then it was an affirmation of ...lots of things and if she lost, she would learn maybe that it sucks to be judged on your looks. But at what cost? The swap was so tough for her I am glad she had good feelings about it, but we'll be turning down all the offers to coach her for free.
And as for Quakerism, you're absolutely write - it's a huge part of who we are (as Scientology informs the G family). Quakers believe in simplicity and integrity, conflict resolution and equality - all of those things that I struggled with at the other house. Karen even preached at my meeting! But it didn't neatly tie in with the show's agenda, so...
You're not going to take up those generous coaching offers? Shock! lol
Thanks for answering my questions. I know the show is intended as mindless entertainment, but a situation such as yours and the G family makes me wish for a two-hour documentary instead of forty-minute fluff. I wanna see what Karen preached at your meeting!