HALLELUJAHH SAMHITA. Thank you. I also find it hard for those Asian women voices that do speak out difficult to hear among large audiences. For instance the choice to "fight" for Asian[-American] rights and the "fight" for women's rights. The double minority factor is hard to overcome/integrate. So cheers for bringing it up on femininisting.com because these views rarely get the comment feedback/publicity it deserves. :]

I agree that fetishization is disgusting and degrading, but you have to leave some room for preferential sexual attraction outside of fetish. Some people, of whatever race, find Asian features attractive. Yes, it's hard to separate this from stereotypes, but just like I think dark hair and light eyes is attractive, some people like what add up to Asian features. Some people are attracted to different body types, some people are attracted to different face types. Yes, there's a bigger, more upsetting problem, but every instance of a white guy dating an Asian girl shouldn't be labeled Fetish.

Thank you for the post! It's so infuriating to hear my male friends talk about how they want to "get" with an Asian woman, as though they are commodities to be enjoyed (a.k.a - f*cked). I almost nearly suckerpunched my cousin when he told my younger brother to marry an Asian woman because "they are easier to deal with" (a.k.a "obedient").

Yet, it's not only Asian women who get stereotyped, generalized, and lumpsummed into one ethnicity group. Latinas also suffer the same bullsh*t...hell women of color in general. Speaking as a Latina, it has been extremely difficult and aggravating to deal with so many generalizations, everything from the "sexy" to the "domestic." We are either "caliente," "picante," passionate creatures with a fondness for red and salsa dancing, or overbearing, overfertile, clicking timebombs. I myself am none of the above! (More of a metalhead, goth chick with a dash of hip-hop injected in there, but that’s besides the point).

As I tell my male friends about women: We are not Skittles!!! We do not consist of different flavors!

hmm I'm wondering if this is like a american thing? I've dated more people than I can count and I've never met an asian "fetishist" or whatever. I've heard of this term but I've never known anyone like that. And I think you should be a little careful about your phrasing since i have asian friends who've dated men white,black, etc and I'm pretty damn sure they weren't the victim of this odd "fetish" thing you speak of. Calling out women for dated a certain race of men is just wrong. They can date who they wanna date, and it's not to say that all white men wanna date asian women cause of this weird stigma thing you describe,... you know they actually might happen to like the person behind the skin.

To be honest, I don't get this post since women of all different apperances are fetishsized in one way or another. My fiance has a thing for red-heads... he would say it's a "fetish".

Maybe you could dig up some history to explain why your so pissed off cause I'm confused.

As someone with several friends who are labeled as "exotic", by American standards, this post really hits home.

That article is really frustrating, because those "traits" are the stereotype, and the have a huge impact on people's lives. A co-worker of mine used to talk about how difficult dating was, because, when she first met a guy, she couldn't be sure whether he was really interested in her, or whether he was interested in her because she was Asian.

Another friend has been repeatedly harassed by people at work (customers and coworkers) because they fetishize her. People look at her and see "Asian" first, and everything else second, despite the years and years she's spent working hard developing a professional image and becoming extremely competent at what she does.

Because in reality, the Indian nerd stereotype is often used to justify unfair work conditions or low self esteem in South Asians that are not "nerdy."

And, I think, it sets people up for failure, too. When people assume that you're going to be a certain way because of fucked up stereotypes (like, for example, that you must be good at math if you're Japanese), then you're more likely to: 1. not get credit for hard work if you do show some skill in that thing, 2. not get the help you need if you're not skilled in that area, because the assumption becomes "you're not applying yourself because it's too easy" instead of "you're struggling and need help".

I'm not so sure this is correct. The focus is on the men, but I believe strongly that it's Asian women who have fetishes for white men. White men sense this, which results in a huge confidence boost for them, so they're more likely to approach Asian women. That's why it's so common to see unattractive white men with attractive Asian women. As a half-Asian guy, this is very difficult for me to accept, but I think that's the truth. My parents are, sadly, proof of this phenomenon.

To be honest, I don't get this post since women of all different apperances are fetishsized in one way or another. My fiance has a thing for red-heads... he would say it's a "fetish".

I think that there's generally a difference between saying "I find myself more attracted to red hair than blonde" and saying "I prefer Asian women to all others."

I just don't think that it's fair to compare hair color- which is a specific trait- to race, which is a lot more complicated.

And, yeah, women of all different types are fetishized- that doesn't make it okay. Racial fetishization might be an American thing, I can't say for sure, but there's definitely a fetishization of "exotic" women that happens in the United States, and it's really troubling.

This ad may get the point across for Asian women, but it's not going to quell the demand for endangered exotic pets. Gotta have those cubs! :-)

Seriously, thank you so much Samhita for talking about this subject. As an Asian woman, I can't begin to describe how annoying it is to start dating someone, only to see a picture of an old girlfriend who bears a freakish resemblance to you, and find out every girl this (white) guy has ever dated is Asian, sometimes even Southeast Asian (which I am). At this point I've confronted guys about having an Asian fetish and usually gotten responses along the lines of, "Well I hate it when people call it a fetish," and some gibber gabber that's basically racist stereotypes of Asian women, being demure, submissive, etc., which I'm expected to see as a compliment. I usually find this laughable because I am so totally the opposite. However, this doesn't take away the frustration of realizing someone expressed interest not only purely because I fit a physical stereotype, but worse yet, because of the racist presumptions they make based on my race. I agree with posters who say there is some room for physical preferences without them being fetishes, per se, but there is a definite difference between fetishizing a woman because of her race and the racist, misogynistic stereotypes you attach to it, and merely liking some physical traits more than others. I'm happy I'm now in a relationship with my awesome Latino boyfriend who appreciates the richness of my racial heritage without using it to put me in a box.

Oh Samhita, this is so true.

Everyone always thinks I'm asian even though I'm latina, so when I was at a club this white guy asked me to dance and asked whether I was filipino, when I told him I was not he said something about getting a drink and then disappeared. I didn't see him for the rest of the night until I was leaving and spotted him with an asian girl on his arm.

I also know a guy who constantly fetishises asian woman and it seriously freaks me out. But he's pretty sexist all round anyway.

About that comparison to preferring redheads...
First, when people say that they prefer an entire race of people they are often making generalizations about the body type of that entire race of people.
Secondly, when people say they prefer an entire race of people they are often making stereotypical generalizations about the personality type that is "supposed to" accompany being that race.

It's ok for a guy to say "I like women who are submissive and thin" (though I still think he might have problems and might want to examine why he wants women who are submissive and thin--such stereotypical ideas of femininity). It's not ok for someone to use "Asian" as a kind of short-hand for "submissive and thin."

Oh Samhita, this is so true.

Everyone always thinks I'm asian even though I'm latina, so when I was at a club this white guy asked me to dance and asked whether I was filipino, when I told him I was not he said something about getting a drink and then disappeared. I didn't see him for the rest of the night until I was leaving and spotted him with an asian girl on his arm.

I also know a guy who constantly fetishises asian woman and it seriously freaks me out. But he's pretty sexist all round anyway.

Shells:

It's also annoying when I meet an Asian woman and find out she has dated only white men. Isn't this also troubling? Maybe it's the result of Asian women stereotyping Asian men and white men?

Great post.

While living in Japan I saw a lot of this fetishization going on with Western men towards Japanese women. All the stereotypes: they're more obedient, cleaner than white women, quieter, etc. It also happened that some Japanese wanted to date foreigners because it was seen by some as a status symbol. I would go on but I want to make this point...

macandcheese: I have to disagree and am wary when an argument is turned around to place responsibility on the women. Asian women, whether they are dating "unattractive" white men or not, are not responsible for the porn, stereotypes, and other degrading ways that they are portrayed by the media and porn industry.

I was hanging out once with a group of acquaintances, and this guy said that he liked dating Asian women "because of their slanted vaginas."

I kid you not.

Oh, the shit that guy took from us for a very long time.

"Asian women, whether they are dating 'unattractive' white men or not, are not responsible for the porn, stereotypes, and other degrading ways that they are portrayed by the media and porn industry."

No disagreement there. Just wanted to air my feeling that part of this is caused by internalized racism. But I would never blame women for their objectification in our culture.

Wah! I was just thinking about this moments ago! And I click open my internet browser, and here is the thing I was thinking about just moments ago! Okay, sorry, coincidences really excite me. Moments ago, when I was thinking about this, I came to the conclusion that the whole "Asian fetish" thing is very racist and sexist if you consider the fact that a fetish is an attraction to an inanimate object that is not sexual by nature. Clearly, there's something wrong with thinking of Asian women as asexual, inanimate objects, given that they're people and all. At the same time, I agree with Jaime that it's not fair to accuse any white man dating an Asian woman of being racist. If anything, that would be counter-productive. People of the same race date all the time without accusations of racism, so it would actually be pretty harmful to assume that a white guy would only date an Asian woman if he was a racist, sexist moron.

macandcheese: No problem, thanks for the clarification.

I thought this was telling. http://www.slate.com/id/2177637/

[T]here are a few reasons some dudes prefer Asian women, and it starts with the fact that they are very rarely unattractive, and they are even more rarely stupid, and they are even more rarely than that fat.

This is a genuine question: Is anyone saying that we should accuse every white man who is dating an Asian woman of fetishism?

A couple of commenters have brought up that we shouldn't do this and I was just wondering where they had seen this.

macandcheese: I don't want race to be a reason someone does or doesn't date me, and I don't make race an issue in how I choose who I date. My current partner, in fact, isn't white. I don't appreciate your implication that I hypocritically perpetuate the same stereotypes I try to dismantle. Kthanks.

But nobody here has claimed that all white men dating Asian women are racist--that's a straw man. This post is specifically about the fetishization of Asian women by white men.

Fetishization goes hand in hand with bigotry, because it treats the person being fetishized/exoticized as if their background makes them less individual, less human--they're simply homegenized into a sea of stereotypes Asian women. I date a guy once who completely exoticized/fetishized my Jewishness--right up until he introduced me to his grandfather, when he lied right in front of my face about me being Jewish. That was because he didn't consider my Jewishness part of my humanity, but something that was cool to play with, but ultimately something disposable.

I'm a white girl living in Japan, and I see this BS all the time. A lot of the foreigners here are obsessed with Japanese girls to the point where they readily make fun of, put down, and generally disparage white girls. I've heard their comments run from "white girls aren't feminine" all way to "white girls vaginas are huge." As you can imagine, I avoid the expat bars whenever possible, just to avoid these guys. My guess is, these guys are scared shitless of strong women, and the only way they can feel better about themselves is to put white women down. At any rate, the guys who make the mistake of thinking Japanese women are weak or submissive soon find out how wrong they are. If their relationship makes it past the dating stage, they realize there is much, much more to them than what they see on the surface. All my friends who are married to Japanese women jokingly say they are afraid of their wives- and one of them is a ex-skinhead biker dude! LOL! At any rate, no skin off my nose- I'm quite glad that type stays away from me. My current boyfriend is Japanese, and he's a feminist! :)

seriously, i've never understood the "azn women r always hawt" line--i live in southern california. there are more asians here than i can shake a stick at and believe me, i see ugly, fat, loud asian women ALL THE TIME. seriously, i feel like people who internalize this myth base it on lucy liu and those girls who follow around gwen stefani.

Great post, Samhita, thanks for writing about this.

blondein_tokyo: I hear you. I always avoided the "gaijin bars" because it was filled with men like that or military guys looking for a little fun before heading back to the base.

It always turned into a hate of other women of other races: "White women are fat. Black women are too loud." Before I went over they warned me my self-esteem might take a hit, and it did in a few ways. But I still met an amazing Japanese man and formed real relationships and stayed away from the negative aspects of the expat scene.

"the reliance on still perpetuating the same myths that fetishizers use to justify their fetish, well that is not cool."

Besides, stuff like the "East Asians are better women because they have straight hair and smooth skin" thing just echoes the "you're worse because you have curly hair" or "you're worse because you have hairy skin" crap black women and Middle Eastern women face.

"I mean I am South Asian and you will not hear me say, 'oh we are nerdy, tee hee, that is a positive stereotype, so it is OK!' Because in reality, the Indian nerd stereotype is often used to justify unfair work conditions or low self esteem in South Asians that are not 'nerdy.'"

...and the "South Asians are smarter" stereotype is also a "non-South-Asians are stupider" stereotype.

"Even when people have the best of intentions with comments like, 'you can't help who you are attracted to,' or 'Asian women are hot,' you begin to realize that often people are just trying to explain away their own or someone else's racism."

Exactly. "I'm just more attracted to East Asian women than to whites or to men" is one thing, "I like East Asian women because whites are loud and men are smelly" is totally another.

"The thing is, it is usually one sided and that being white men, into Asian chicks."

For that matter, sometimes it's racist even when it's a same-race preference. Is "WM/AF couples suck because we shouldn't let white men steal our females" coming from an Asian man any better than "AM/AF couples suck because those Asian men are domineering wimps" coming from a white man?

"As a half-Asian guy, this is very difficult for me to accept, but I think that's the truth. My parents are, sadly, proof of this phenomenon."

I hope they didn't expect their offspring to automatically be an Asian girl or a white boy then push anti-Asian-guys stereotypes on you.

It's interesting for me because I am half asian and half white and identify more with white culture. I see myself as equal or the same as most white girls, but it weirds me out that others do not see me in the same way. For instance today on another forum, someone said that I could not be pretty because I am asian. The stupidity of that comment aside, it's weird because I don't think of myself as asian, yet others do. So now I'm paranoid about men fetishizing me.

Sux2bme.

Hoo boy, my favorite subject. What's a socially-conscious white boy with bamboo fevah to do? (beyond not bandying about ephitets, of course) Don't worry, ladies; because I feel the culture has salted the field and shit the bed before I came into your life, there's no way I'll make a move on you if you're Asian, because I positively scream "asian girls are sooo Exotic/erotic/submissive". Fat, bespectacled, obsessed with asian pop culture--to look at me I'm one step from mail-order--Jesus God, How would I begin to counter that. I'd be fuckin' impatient, to put it lightly, with anyone who was attracted to *me* for being perceived as docile and obedient. The alternative of course is to seek out asian women who are into that--far, far worse. Like I'd be posting here if I didn't have a problem with that. I'm not just getting my Butterfly on, honest.

Great post!

It reminds me of a line in "Wedding Crashers" where Owen Wilson refers to some hook-up as "my first asian" as if it were some huge milestone. It seems that some men treat sex with an Asian woman like a second kind of virginity.

The same thing happens with black men. The stereotype that all black men are well endowed puts a lot of pressure on a number of my friends, because there is this automatic assumption that they are good in bed.

My ex-boyfriend, who I dated for three years was black. I can't begin to tell you all of the stupid questions I'd get asked. "How big is he?" "How long can he go?" "does he have to use magnums?" We actually didn't even sleep together until we had been dating for two years. We were both virgins before that.

It's frustrating when people want to date a certain race because of the assumptions made about that race, but I agree that that doesn't mean every person dating someone of another race is doing so because of the stereotypes.

Seriously. The last guy I dated would not shut up about how excited he was to be with a half-Asian woman. He would bring it up all the time at the most random moments. When he said something about how he couldn't wait to get a "real Asian girl next time," well it didn't last long after that.

I also identify more with white culture so when people find out that I am half Asian and start attributing all sorts of characteristics to me, sometimes I am so shocked and confused I don't even know how to react.

I know that nobody has accused all interracial couples of dating each other because of the stereotypes, but that is a real problem that couples do have to deal with, and I think that most of the comments mentioning that are just an expansion of the original post.

Does every white man who dates an Asian woman have a fetish? Of course not! That idea just indicates that there is no reason a man would date an Asian woman except for her race, which further degrades Asian women.
However, do lots of American guys fetishize Asian women? Yes. Big time. I'm sure lots of people here saw the link posted on feministing to a site that encourages American men to go to Asian and marry women there.
It's unfortunate how ingrained these images of Asian women as lithe, submissive sex dolls are in our culture. Just look at a dozen magazines and compare them to a dozen porn sites. You'll be lucky to find one Asian model in any fashion or even mainstream magazine doing anything, even advertising soap, but the "Asian" section on most user uploaded porn sites is huge. More and more people associate young Asian women exclusively with pornography or the sexy girlfriend, because that is the only role they play in the American media.

Don't believe me?
A good friend of mine was told that although she was "hot" a guy would "never" date her because "Asian girls remind me of pornos." Why don't women of all colors remind him of pornography? After all, white women still make up the majority of most porn actresses, even with the big "Asian market." Probably because he sees white and black women portrayed in at least SOME other way on a regular basis.
It's disgusting, but it's a cultural problem, not just the fault of those creepy idiots who learn how to say "hello" in Japanese and then say it to Cambodian-American girls in hopes of getting some...assholes.

Does every white man who dates an Asian woman have a fetish? Of course not! That idea just indicates that there is no reason a man would date an Asian woman except for her race, which further degrades Asian women.
However, do lots of American guys fetishize Asian women? Yes. Big time. I'm sure lots of people here saw the link posted on feministing to a site that encourages American men to go to Asian and marry women there.
It's unfortunate how ingrained these images of Asian women as lithe, submissive sex dolls are in our culture. Just look at a dozen magazines and compare them to a dozen porn sites. You'll be lucky to find one Asian model in any fashion or even mainstream magazine doing anything, even advertising soap, but the "Asian" section on most user uploaded porn sites is huge. More and more people associate young Asian women exclusively with pornography or the sexy girlfriend, because that is the only role they play in the American media.

Don't believe me?
A good friend of mine was told that although she was "hot" a guy would "never" date her because "Asian girls remind me of pornos." Why don't women of all colors remind him of pornography? After all, white women still make up the majority of most porn actresses, even with the big "Asian market." Probably because he sees white and black women portrayed in at least SOME other way on a regular basis.
It's disgusting, but it's a cultural problem, not just the fault of those creepy idiots who learn how to say "hello" in Japanese and then say it to Cambodian-American girls in hopes of getting some...assholes.

For what it's worth, the Jezebel writer who posted the article got called out for her comments about skin, hotness pretty quickly by commenters, and the resulting discussion was pretty thought-provoking.

FWIW, I've never known a non-Asian guy who just, oops, happened to only date Asian women. All of them read manga, watched all-Asian porn, and endlessly sought out Asian women so they could try to guess what country they were from (to the Asian girl's delight!)

This reminds of a conversation I had with my brother the other day. We were reminiscing about the Native American fetishization (not in a sexual way, more like a culture-appropriating way) that a lot of my generation's parents and their friends went through in the 1970s and early 1980s. It always grossed me out, it just seemed like racism with a friendlier face. Native Americans are just PEOPLE, with human faults and shortcomings, not some faceless downtrodden mass of Noble Savages.

Among other things, I'm appalled by the ignorance of it all. Asia is a huge continent, with diverse people with different histories and billions of people -- lumping all of that in and slapping labels on it is flat insulting.

I tend to see these things through the lens of my own experiences, which is of course a very limiting perspective -- but in the tiny corner of the world where my father came from, there are bunches of different cultures and migrations and histories. There are seven Celtic nations in Western Europe, five in the Atlantic Isles, let alone the diaspora populations -- so if the cultures of one little archipelago off the European coast are distinct and deserve to be treated with respect and not conflated into one big mass, so too the diverse peoples of every region. Just because many Americans don't know enough about the histories or cultures of Asia to distinguish them doesn't excuse ignoring them (and, of course, some of the same people will passionately argue for Tibetan freedom, oblivious to the point that recognizong the uniqueness of the various peoples of the Tibetan plateau ought to give rise to the recognition that every other part of Asia has its own history and cultures as well).

It has somehow become OK to have racist sexual preferences, even in progressive circles. The thing is, it is usually one sided and that being white men, into Asian chicks.

I wasn't aware that somebody could have "racist" sexual preferences. Maybe YOU can consciously control who you are physically attracted to, but I would bet that the vast majority of people cannot. The fact is, heterosexual male sexual attraction is driven by the physical characteristics of women, and a subset of men like the appearance of Asian women, just as a subset of men like the appearance of blonde women with large breasts. Would you say the guys who like large breasted white blonde women have "racist sexual preferences"? Do you think that homosexual males have "sexist" sexual preferences because they prefer men and don't give women a fair shake?

Furthermore, the attraction cannot be simply "one sided and that being white men into Asian chicks". For the attraction to be one-sided, you must be presuming that the Asian women were FORCED into relationships with the white men attracted to them. Nobody held a gun to their heads and said they had to date the white men who found them attractive.

But for the rest of us, that are sick and tired of white men being into us because we are "exotic," well this shit is just tired. I am not your fetish, I am not your fantasy and, yeah, I might be good in bed, but my race is not why.

White men are attracted to me! Boo Hoo! People in other parts of the world are being ETHNICALLY CLEANSED due to racial stereotypes, and you're complaining about white men finding you attractive. Cry me a f*cking river. Guess what--no matter what your race or background, people will unjustly attribute characteristics to you based on cultural stereotypes or on the features of people they have met who look similar to you. Everybody faces stereotypes, and considering the enormous obstacles of racial discrimination that America is in the process of overcoming (and the discrimination against the LGBT community that is still rampant), your complaint seems utterly trivial.

badnfluence, nobody here is interested in the "your oppression is not as important as what happened to someone else" game. Go play "Oppression Olympics" somewhere else.

Well, it's all just Bernard Boursicot and M. Butterfly isn't it? The idea that some amazing, lovely, otherwordly "creature" who has all these odd sexual preferences is just waiting to be your devoted geisha-girl for life. I highly recommend reading David Henry Hwang's notes for the play, because they're very revealing.

And, as an aside, this is why I fucking HATE Gwen Stefani walking around with her "Harajuku Girls" like exotic pets, women she's freaking renamed after her clothing line. That's a "fetish" too and it's disgusting.

badnfluence, you seem to misunderstand how fetishism works. The issue is not "white men are attracted to me." The issue is "white men are attracted to their racist fantasies of what all Asian women are like, and project those fantasies onto me."

Critiquing the treatment of women as two-dimensional sexual objects is a long-standing tradition in feminism.

Thomas, EG, well said old chaps, I couldn't have put it better myself. (I've decided today is Talk-Like-British-Aristocracy-Day)

Angie - Totally! I remember when No Doubt were a cool band, what the hell happened to Gwen?!

"Would you say the guys who like large breasted white blonde women have "racist sexual preferences"?"

Bullshit argument idiots always use to "prove" there's nothing wrong with Asian women being objectified. No, men who like blond women aren't being racist. Neither are men who happen to like, say, dark hair and dark, almond shaped eyes, and dates a lot of Asian women with those features.
Men who refuse to date women who aren't white? Racist. A black man who intentionally seeks out blond white women for a reason other than the fact that he thinks they're pretty? Racist. A woman who dates black men because they're "studs?" Racist.
Men who purposely seek out Asian women and describes them as "MY ASIAN GIRLFRIEND! YES!!"? Probably racists.
Lots of men of any race dating an Asian woman will describe their girlfriend as smart, pretty, fun, nice, etc and might mention her looks and features without objectifying her. Lots of other men will say they want to date "an Asian chick." not a pretty Asian woman, or a smart Asian woman, or one particular Asian woman, just any "Asian chick." There's an assumption all Asian "chicks" come with the same built in features.
oh, and a man who says he just wants to date a blond, any blond, would also be nasty and objectifying blonds.

This topic always makes me slightly uncomfortable. I think this post is right on the money, and the obsession with "obedient" women with "tight pussies" is downright disgusting.

BUT I have a mini-fetish for Asian women myself. I really admire Thai and Japanese culture (not that they're not sexist as hell but I really like some aspects).

It's funny, what I love about Japanese women is actually their strength of character. Sure, the stereotype of being less in your face than western women is generally true but that's true of both men and women. It also seems to me that Japanese women are able to be more overtly feminine etc without being seen as weak of body or spirit. I really admire that south-east Asian women tend to be very strong for their size (and in general) and Japanese women especially build muscle quickly.

My fetish (I can't really think of another word though "fetish" has deeply creepy conotations) for Thai culture comes from practicing (obsessively) Muay Thai and spending a month training in Bangkok. I felt more at home there than I ever have anywhere else.

I find Thai, Japanese and Chinese women very sexy (no, Thai women don't look much like Japanese or Chinese women but there you are) and one of the few serious crushes I've had on a women (I'm often sexually attracted to women but seldom have real crushes) was a Chinese woman who works at a clothing store and I'm SURE flirted back. *SIGH*

I'm not sure what my point is, but I really don't want to think that I'm making assumptions about an individual by finding a "look" attractive. I probably am I guess :\

What I've found particularly interesting lately is how this is reflected in mainstream advertising. From banks to home decorating to other products, it's perfectly natural to see WM/AF couples in prime time advertising. When is the last time you've seen pretty much any other race combination in a set of people presumably "doing it?"

blondein_tokyo, xena, I have a nice Japanese fella myself and he happens to be the most considerate man I've ever dated (not that I'm making any generalizations), and adorable to boot. Though I have a few male friends in Japan teaching, it sounds like the majority of that scene sounds awful. When they get to the point that they feel entitled to insult women of other races, that must indicate some intense self-hatred.

My boyfriend also has some "white-guy-who-happen-to-date-mostly-Asian-girl" friends, but they seem pretty ok in general. I just rather enjoy the nerdy social mini-feuds they have with each other due to the competition among themselves when they are trying to woo the same Asian girl.

There's not a whole lot you can do about the fetish thing. If these guys are in a bar insulting other women while pursuing Asian women, at least that's one less damaged group you have to deal with. Unfortunately this makes it very difficult for my own Asian female friends sometimes, but they tend to be good judges of character. No matter what race or social group you identify with, you are it's good to keep the bullshit radar for fetishists of any kind.

You guys should check out this site:
http://www.bigbadchinesemama.com/home.html

Love it.

[i]It's funny, what I love about Japanese women is actually their strength of character. Sure, the stereotype of being less in your face than western women is generally true but that's true of both men and women. It also seems to me that Japanese women are able to be more overtly feminine etc without being seen as weak of body or spirit. I really admire that south-east Asian women tend to be very strong for their size (and in general) and Japanese women especially build muscle quickly.[/i]

Fenriswolf:
Though you are obviously more respectful of Asian women, and not outrightly objectifying them, you are still perpetuation stereotypes. You know some Japanese women with these qualities, and you are attributing these personality traits to the whole population.

Stern disapproval! Anecdote. Personal preference. Hearsay. Something vaguely sociological I picked up in Reader's Digest. Severe apology.

I grew up in Tokyo, but never noticed the Asian fetish stuff, but that could just be because I wasn't really looking at sexual dynamics when I was younger...

But now I'm back in Asia (in Shanghai) and the number of old-ass white men/young Chinese girls couples I've seen is kind of grossing me out, and I've gotten to the point where I'm automatically suspicious of every white guy that I see and think that they just came here to find "hot Asian chicks" which may very well not be the case for every guy, but...seems to be the case for a lot of them. I know of a couple where the woman is 24 and the man is a 70-year old Australian man (so it's not just American guys) and he is constantly screaming at her. It just makes me want to throw up.

It also makes me wonder (although I'm not Asian) how many of those guys I made out with in college just saw me as a novelty (I'm black) and how many of them just made out with me for genuine reasons. (Genuine reason being that they were horny and wanted to make out, or something of that nature.)

Amen to everything that's already been said.

As someone of South Asian descent living in East Asia (Hong Kong) - this rings very true. There is an exceptional amount of older expat (read: white) men - from the UK, Aus, NZ, US etc - who are with younger SE Asian women. There have even been comments in the local paper (The South China Morning post) about Asian women's femininity, their grace and their humility as opposed to their white counterparts who have "been ruined by Western feminism". Yes, you read that right, someone actually wrote in to the paper, and said those exact words. The person who wrote the Jezebel article claims she lived in HK but "got laid once" this might be to do with the fact that she isn't what Expat men consider as "Local Chinese". There is definitely the view that local Chinese women are sexier, more feminine and more agreeable than their foreign born counterparts, who are louder and more aggressive because of their exposure to the West.

I brought up my own ethnicity to say there are also different levels of fetishisms – I don’t think I’ve ever been hit on by expat men here. Because in HK South Asians are lower down the rung – so to speak – than women of Filipino, Thai, Indonesian and Chinese descent. There are plenty of blogs out there written by expat men who talk about their sole attraction to Asian women, because they find white women just so darned unattractive.

People don't tend to discuss their internalized racism in polite company. Nor do they discuss sex in polite company (at least, not more than a passing reference). It's no surprise to me that the merging of the two is rarely discussed outside of lowest-common-denominator circles.

Addendum: I meant to add that what with internalized racism and sex both being considered "bad" (well, we're still very conflicted about the latter), that may be one reason for the merging of the two.

Long day. My thoughts are not very cohesive.

Perhaps I'm only trying to excuse my own exotification, but I like ginger and black hair, pale skin, natural color, green eyes, and almond shaped eyes in a woman. Does the fact that some of the things I find attractive tend to be on the bodies of Chinese women that I interacted with a great deal during high school mean that I'm racist? I'm not entirely sure that it does, anymore than the fact that I think Rachel Weisz is hot means that I'm objectifying. I'm a lesbian - I find some women sexually attractive. I have types. It happens.

Then again, I'm of a mind that a little objectification doesn't hurt anyone and is perfectly natural, and is not just men objectifying women. As usual, it's excess that can be the real issue. I do, however, realize that a lot of people disagree with me. I'm something of a hedonist (to my chagrin, really).

I have had a preference for Asian women for many years, though I find women of all different backgrounds attractive. My wife is from the Philippines. Does that make me an Asian fetishist? I don't think so, though maybe some here will disagree. I don't hold to stereotypes that Asian women are horny or submissive or whatever the other stereotypes are. My wife is more than my wife, she is my best friend. And, she is older than me.

That being said, I do get what you are saying Samhita. When my wife and kids and I were in the Philippines this past summer on vacation and to visit her family, we stayed for a couple of days at the Bohol Beach Club. I observed at least several couples that consisted of a much older white man and a younger Filipina girl. The worst was an American man who was not that old, maybe in his 40's, but he was very overweight and he went around with this tiny Filipina who looked no older than 18.

I talked to my wife's sister about it and she said that around there such couple are referred to as "the gecko and the whale". It was really pathetic to see.

just for an extra push here is yellow rage from def poetry jam. http://youtube.com/watch?v=Zi2LoWPImZE

just for an extra push here is yellow rage from def poetry jam. http://youtube.com/watch?v=Zi2LoWPImZE

Fenriswolf: Though you are obviously more respectful of Asian women, and not outrightly objectifying them, you are still perpetuation stereotypes. You know some Japanese women with these qualities, and you are attributing these personality traits to the whole population.

There are cultural differences, and I like the respectfulness and open-mindedness (VERY close-minded in some respects sure, but more open-minded than western culture in some ways) of their culture in general.

And as for muscularity, I think that is a genetic difference. I'm part Maori, and I build muscle like nothing, as do many Maori and Pacific Island people. It's only a personal hypoythesis that Japanese people do too.

But yeah, I definitely fetishise Asian women and cultures and this makes me somewhat uncomfortable but it doesn't mean I expect anything in particular from them in terms of personality than anybody else. *shrug*

So, my thoughts on this can be summed up as such:

Are you going to make a post about white women that exclusively date black men, and how they are "fetishizing" them?

Or anyone who is attracted to anyone else? If you plan to pretty much take attraction, and boil it down to nothing but fetishizing, what's your goal in that?

For instance, I'm not attracted to Hispanic people. I'm simply not. Doesn't make me racist, doesn't mean I "fetishize" the races I *do* find attractive.

People do have types that they find attractive. If we're going to simply call out anyone that has a preference, where does it end, exactly?

Do YOU have certain physical types you're attracted to more than others? Shall we say you're fetishizing them?

I don't mean to sound nasty here, but it sounds as though you're attacking any white male that's with an Asian woman of any nationality.

I mean, to take your post to it's logical conclusion, do you only want people to date within their race, at the risk of otherwise appearing as though they "fetishize" other races?

DocEss, how about you actually read the post and the comments that follow?

It's pretty clear to me that there's a difference between:
being attracted to an Asian woman,
and
fetishizing 'Asianness' and projecting your preconceived notions about Asians (a large and diverse portion of the world's population) onto Asian women, commodifying them for your own excitement.

Substitute any race you want for "Asian."

Why does it matter what attracts particular women and men to one another? Do the posters and (most of) the commenters on this blog value and revere free choice as to any subject that does not involve fetuses?

John in Nashville: "Why does it matter what attracts particular women and men to one another? Do the posters and (most of) the commenters on this blog value and revere free choice as to any subject that does not involve fetuses?"

In the future, you should at least skim through the previous comments before you post.

What we are condemning is the tendency for some men to stereotype a woman of another race, and make assumptions about what kind of girlfriend she would be based on those stereotypes.

Of course, some women are guilty of this too, as can be seen by a woman who dates a black guy just because she believes that he is well endowed.

This type of stereotyping is wrong, period.

and I'd like to respond to your second question with another question:
Are the trolls who frequent this blog able to debate any topic without bringing the often unrelated subject of abortion into the discussion?

Jeez.

It matters, John, because the fetishization of different cultures and their PEOPLE is harmful to those people!
Men who insult and disparage white women for being too opinionated or having "big vaginas," in favor of Asian women who are supposedly demure and tight are perpetuating damaging stereotypes that affect real people's lives! Nobody here is suggesting outlawing anything, so quit trying to silence the discussion. God, some of you are so defensive and unwilling to examine your attitudes.

Come on, people. I'm a South-east Asian woman dating a white man and I didn't assume that this post applied to my boyfriend. Why? Because he is not a fetishist. When people ask him what his girlfriend is like, he tells them how smart and funny she is. If people ask what his girlfriend looks like, he'll tell them about my race, but that's not why he dates me. He dates me because we have so much in common.

I have dealt with fetishists, though, and it was completely different. I had one guy openly tell me how much he LOVED East Indian chicks and how his last four girlfriends have all been East Indian. My Asian friend once had a guy come up to her and go, "Hey, Shanghai Princess," and then make some weird comment about dumplings and tea. That is not the normal behaviour of guys who just HAPPEN to like a certain set of features.

And frankly, I doubt Samhita's intention was to malign all white men who have dated interracially when she herself has dated white men.

As a half-Asian woman with a Korean mother, the stereotype of Asians being quiet and submissive either makes me want to laugh loudly or punch somebody, depending on how I'm feeling at that particular moment.

Most of the time it feels disingenuous for me to complain about racism because Asians seem to get the "good" stereotypes -- being smart, pretty, good with math/music/whatever -- it's like, comparatively, what do we have to complain about? But stereotypes are still stereotypes, and thus still harmful, especially for anybody that doesn't conform to the stereotypical view. It's also slightly annoying when you *do* conform to a stereotype in certain ways, because you wonder ... am I that way because that's the way I am, or because that's what people expect of me?

The boyfriend I'm dating now is white, and I know he's dating me because he likes me for who I am, not because he's acquired an Asian fetish from watching hentai.

Would I date an Asian guy if I were single again? Sure, if one asked me out because he liked me for who I was, and not because his mother wants him to marry an Asian girl.

I cannot comment much because I believe that in the original post by Samhita, the context of Caucasian men dating Asian women is within an American setting, an environment which I have no experience in, having never had the opportunity to so much as set foot in the country.

However, speaking as a Far East Asian with 20+ years living in Asia and 5+ years living in Australia, I would just like to add my comments which might provide a more global/international view.

While I do agree with Samhita that some Caucasian men do fetishize Asian women, ascribing them the usual stereotypes (meekness, docile, feminine, etc), I have to say that Asian women are able to and can do the same with Caucasian men.

Posters above have mentioned how most Caucasian men in America see Asian women as sexual playthings etc, due to the exposure of Asian women in porn sites in the US, and the stereotype that the Asian woman is an exotic, sexual tigress in the bedroom. I believe that the American law series with Lucy Liu in it imprinted this image on many a malleable male mind, although frankly speaking, most Asians in Asia are still trying to ponder how the American media have made Lucy Liu to be a this gorgeous, take-my-breath away vixen….most media here in Asia describe her as ordinary-looking, which often surprises Americans and shows a clear difference in how Americans and the rest of Asia categorize ‘beauty’.

Having said that, the exposure of Caucasian men in Asia is much, much larger in contrast. After all, aren’t movies from Hollywood THE movies that everyone around the world sees? American TV series? American news? American music? In terms of media power, America is top dog, and thus, there have been countless times where countries in Asia are always worried about “Western influence�.

The Caucasian male, as witnessed in the movies, is taller, more muscular, with more well-defined facial structure, well-spoken, rich and overall, always portrayed to be more masculine than the average Asian guy on the street could ever hope to be. Speaking as an Asian guy who did all the things teenagers are wont to do, how could I ever forget how my best friends (girls) would gush over how incredibly good-looking Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise, Jude Law, Josh Harnett, Ryan Phillipe, etc are? How could they not fall in love with them, after all, they are always positively portrayed in the media. I once read a Female Magazine where young women (in Asia) were asked who their crushes were, and would hold up a picture of their crush (usually a movie star, singer, etc) while growing up. Out of the 20 or so girls, 18 held up picture of White Caucasian men, while the 2 others had pictures of black men.

In Asia, there is still the mentality that Whites are better than us. Even though the mind fully rationalizes that everyone is equal, that we are all brothers and sisters despite our skin colour, that we all bleed red blood, the Whites are still shown more deference…Why? It could be because of colonial history, or that the fact that Western media is so powerful. In Asia, there are always complains from customers that whites are always treated better, provided better service, than the Asian customers. Bigger spending power, perhaps?

Marrying a Caucasian man is often thought of as a “level up� for Asian women. It is thought of as some to be something of “prestige�. Some Asians (in Asia), think that marrying a Caucasian man will bring a better life, a more wealthy and prestigious social circle. Some Asian women even rule out Asian men and set their sights on getting a White boyfriend! Why? Perhaps because they believe in the “stereotypes� of White men? Here in Asia, besides the aforementioned features of being more masculine, rich and powerful, Caucasian men are thought to be more gentlemanly and generous, and who show proper respect for women, while of course, Asian men are domineering, chauvinist pigs who believe that a woman’s place is at home and in the kitchen? Who is right? * shrugs *.

Do all Asian women think like this? Of course not. It would be silly to come to that conclusion just as it is silly to say that all White men fetishize Asian women!

SarahMC mentions that:

‘Men who insult and disparage white women for being too opinionated or having "big vaginas," in favor of Asian women who are supposedly demure and tight are perpetuating damaging stereotypes that affect real people's lives!

She is totally right, as this in case, the men who do so are being insulting to both white women AND Asian women. Who wants to be thought of as a stereotype?

However, Caucasian men aren’t the only ones to be blamed for basing an entire race on stereotypes. Women do it too, and often.

How many Asian men out there have been shown the hand because the White woman that they’re interested in, just isn’t into Asians? And the Asian man’s stereotypes? That he is nerdy, lacking in social skills, built slender, shorter, less masculine, slanty eyes and the most loved stereotype of all, that Asian men have small penises. Wouldn’t you say this is damaging and affecting real people’s lives too? Could it be because there are not many positive portrayals of the Asian male in the media, just as there aren’t too many non-sexual portrayals of the Asian female in the media? I yearn for the day that an Asian man can actually carry a movie and fall in love with the leading woman, as well as the day that an Asian woman can star in a movie without being any man’s love interest , or a prostitute, or having her do some kung-fu.

My point is that are some Caucasian men to be blamed for fetishizing Asian women? Of course! Most of my Asian female friends have had very bad experiences with Caucasian men who treated them like some exotic pet, etc. But are we going to sit here and pretend that SOME Asian women, White women, and whatever racial demographic there is out there, DOESN’T buy into stereotypes just like the aforementioned sample of Caucasian men? That would be disingenuous and lay all the blame on the feet of these Caucasian men alone, as if only they alone were perpetuating all damaging stereotypes. There’s always 2 or more sides to every story.

As an aside, there is an interesting phenomenon happening in Singapore. In Singapore, men are required to do 2 years of army training, while the women are not subjected to the same. What this means is that women in Singapore often have more financial power than men their age. It has come to such a stage, being a rather small island nation, that with such financial success, Singaporean women are seen to have “morphed� into their Western counterparts: materialistic, aggressive, domineering, the need to have it all, etc….It has reached the stage where Singaporean men are now outsourcing for brides/partners overseas, often from the poorer countries, with Malaysian, Indonesian, Vietnamese, Thai, Fillipino and Mainlander Chinese women being the favourites. Of course, there was a large outcry from Singaporean women saying that men couldn’t handle them, that the men were immature, momma’s boys and chauvinistic etc……

It just goes to show you that even Asian men source for Asian brides.

I hope I have not rambled on too long. Please do excuse me for any mistakes in my English.

One explanation I have heard for the Asian fetish is that Asian women (and men, for that matter) tend to have features that, among Caucasians, are signs of physical immaturity. Smooth skin, rounder face shape, smaller size. Could it be that the Asian fetish is sublimated peodophilia?

Thank you for this post. I'm so sick of this bullcrap.

But to be fair, some of it is just like how some guys like blondes. Some people are just more attracted to the physical features common in Asian women.

Its still wrong to desire a relationship with a woman because of her looks, but it is a step above wanting to get with someone because you beleive their race to be easier to handle.

What this means is that women in Singapore often have more financial power than men their age.….It has reached the stage where Singaporean men are now outsourcing for brides/partners overseas, often from the poorer countries

This just shows the insanity of sexism. Men find themselves poorer than women, so the men seek out even poorer women to buy. So... they can be even poorer? Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense.

I blame it on porn! If you want to see an industry that is both misogynistic and racist, look at porn. It's not just Asian women, but women of all types, being stereotyped - blacks are seen as "ghetto-ass, big-butted hoes," Latinas are described as "hot," "spicy," or some other silly terms, and Asians are described with stereotypical words like "Yellow Fever," or "Me Blow You Long Time" or whatever else. White women are scene as "dumb, white bitches who are too dumb for college and too lazy for work."

I am annoyed, but not surprised, at how women are not only scene through their sex and gender, but also color as well.

In the non-sexual sense, the one argument I've heard a lot - being an Asian-American myself, is that Asian women are supposedly more "obedient" than other types of women. Many also have used the "exotic" and "small-bodied" argument, which kind of freaks me out a bit.

But believe it or not, Asian-Americans themselves can also be quite racist when it comes to these stereotypes. I remember once, at Thanksgiving dinner, I gave my cousin an earful and was ready to start a fight because she was complaining that all my girlfriends have been white (it's not like chose to date them based on skin color) and I should date Asian women instead, because they'll "listen to me more," thus would make "better" wives.

I just hate it, no matter what "types" people are talking about. It's silly - people, whether men or women, are more than just their skin color.

Someone wrote: ""How many Asian men out there have been shown the hand because the White woman that they’re interested in, just isn’t into Asians? And the Asian man’s stereotypes? That he is nerdy, lacking in social skills, built slender, shorter, less masculine, slanty eyes and the most loved stereotype of all, that Asian men have small penises.""

Hahaha, this really made me laugh really hard. I don't know, perhaps it's because of my liberal upbringing, but I've never experienced said stereotypes. People first describe me as "the bald feminist who's always got a can of Red Bull with him," not the "Asian kid who ...," so I think it's all about presentation and how you carry yourself.

I find said stereotypes only happen in the media and butt-fuck Egypt areas.

On college campuses and everywhere else, people are seen as people.

If a person is a nerd and happens to be Asian, and the woman isn't attracted to him, then he isn't a victim of stereotypes. It's just a matter of attraction, love and dating.

"It's pretty clear to me that there's a difference between:
being attracted to an Asian woman,
and
fetishizing 'Asianness' and projecting your preconceived notions about Asians (a large and diverse portion of the world's population) onto Asian women, commodifying them for your own excitement."

It's more because in her post, she strongly implied that any white men dating any Asian women is because of "fetishizing".

"Its still wrong to desire a relationship with a woman because of her looks, but it is a step above wanting to get with someone because you beleive their race to be easier to handle."

Humans are largely visual creatures (so are many animals) and a large component in choosing a mate is physical attraction.

I don't care what anyone here wants to lie to themselves and say, but being physically attracted to someone is a large component in a relationship being physical in nature, and not just emotional.

No one, not men OR women, for that matter, walks into a bar and says "I bet so and so over there, is really smart and interesting, I shall go talk to them."

Both sexes make the first step on an initial physical attraction. It's not sexist to do that, it's human.

DOC, errr ...actually, I do that. Most of the time, I don't go to bars to get laid, but to have a good time. So if I see someone interesting, I talk to them. If she also happens to be sexually attractive, and we hit it off, then there's nothing wrong with that. But if not, then there's nothing loss.

Seriously, like it or not, the bar scene isn't just all about picking someone up. Just because a woman comes up and talks to me at a bar doesn't mean she's wanting to be taken home, and just because I am talking to a woman at a bar, doesn't mean that I am scheming to take her home.

"But to be fair, some of it is just like how some guys like blondes. Some people are just more attracted to the physical features common in Asian women.

Its still wrong to desire a relationship with a woman because of her looks,"

Ok I was with you until you said "it's still wrong to desire a relationship because of her looks"... because as someone else said - humans are visual creatures. Women are no different then men - our first gut impressions of people are generally based on looks. If everything else is equal, everyone would naturally pick the more attractive person. There's nothing inherently wrong with that - so long as you don't EXCLUDE people who are less attractive. I've been with people who weren't very attractive at all - and that's fine - but that doesn't mean I'm immune from thinking someone is attractive.

I'm glad this topic came up, though I'd actually like to focus on the reverse, since that's what I see more. I.e., most women I know flat out will not date an Asian guy - including some of my Asian friends. I know people have preferences towards certain types, etc. Like I prefer tall people - is that wrong or am I a bigot? I sure hope not.

But when asked, most women will say "I don't find them attractive", or "they are cheap", "they are too controlling" or even "they have small penises". And I just find this type of stereotyping to be really bad yet seldom talked about and I've often wondered why no one talks about it.

Similarly I've heard female friends make outrageous comments about Asian women along the lines of "they're stealing all our men" and "making me look bad", etc.

I always get mad at these types of comments because my partner is Asian, and these types of attitudes and comments do everyone a disservice.

"DOC, errr ...actually, I do that. Most of the time, I don't go to bars to get laid, but to have a good time. So if I see someone interesting, I talk to them. If she also happens to be sexually attractive, and we hit it off, then there's nothing wrong with that. But if not, then there's nothing loss."

The bar statement is just a figure of speech, a metaphor, if you will.

Besides, anecdotal evidence, and all that.

Note, though, that I never said the bar was for a random sexual encounter.

Have you noticed how South Asian men in particular tend to be horrible to white women they are dating, as compared to South asian women they know...
its something like the stereotype of "While/ Caucasian women" are loose and can be sexualized anyway, while with South Asian women, one needs to respect them...

And most South Asian men do want some "action" from the "blue-eyed blond", you know....that is stereotyping too.

Long-time lurker, first-time poster. I would like to start by thanking the Feministing team for a great site. I think many of my concerns from a very young age have always been feminist ones, but it's only in recent times -- thanks to sites like this, and books like Jessica's -- that I have come to self-consciously identify as feminist. I used very much to be a woman who was misogynist (while claiming to be against sexism) and identified as "one of the guys" -- and a libertarian, to boot (shudder). Thankfully, I'm putting that behind me now (though it's a continual work in progress).

So, disclosure: I'm a Singaporean woman of Chinese descent who lives and works in London. I have a white boyfriend, but I'm 100% certain it has nothing to do with my race. I have to say that in general I've encountered remarkably little Asian fetishisation on this side of the pond (though that's not to say it doesn't exist). It does strike me as a much more American phenomenon.

To the posters above who talk about Asian women fetishising white men -- this conversation is about the way Asian women are represented and our subjectivies denied. While Asian men may face unpleasant stereotypes, isn't that sort of off topic? It's no doubt true that some Asian women have internalised the myths about themselves in the way that many women (and people of all sorts) have internalised all kinds of sexist and racist nonsense, but to bring up the situation of Asian men makes it appear a little like you're playing "oppression Olympics" (as someone else called it).

In particular, to the poster who refers to Singapore, I think you're overlooking the appalling misogyny in Singapore that can easily explain many preferences of Singaporean women for foreign men. The misogyny in Singapore is so thickly laid on that the level of respect most Singaporean women would receive from men from Western countries who approach them, possibly even the Asian fetishers, would often be a breath of fresh air. We're talking about a country where a marital rape exemption continues to exist and is vigorously defended by very many not even on the flimsy grounds of the problems of false accusations (which is bullshit but at least has the veneer of a reasoned argument) but instead on straightforward grounds of male entitlement to the female body. Men from Western societies are more likely (though obviously with a lot of local and individual variation) to have had it hammered into them from experience that they need to pay lip service, however disingenuously, to respect for women; men in Singapore have been brought up from day 1 of their lives to openly speak about their need to be dominant in a relationship, to earn more, to have a submissive partner, to reject women who express their opinions, etc. There's also the fact that the entire country is so tightly engineered that individuality and idiosyncracy of any kind is really hard to come by -- and foreigners who have come from elsewhere obviously are not as stifled. Of course, to take experiences with some misogynist Singaporean men and tar all of them with the same brush would be insulting (and indefensible) in the same way that Asian fetishisation is insulting, but I don't think the Singaporean men you refer to as buying foreign brides from other parts of Southeast Asia are suffering as a result of such insulting attitudes being prevalent - they're clearly suffering on account of being assholes who only want women who won't talk back to them, and who would rather purchase a submissive woman than stop and think "Wait a minute, maybe I'm an asshole" - so, not such a good example for your point I think?

In light of many of these comments, I'd love to see more discussion of fetishization vs. attraction on Feministing.

I'm certainly no expert, and agree that some areas are murky. However, if you're equating personality traits to physical traits you're attracted to, you're fetishizing those people. If you're attributing certain traits to an entire race you're making racist assumptions. If you're making assumptions about people having traits you are attracted to based on race, you're fetishizing their race.

'Are you going to make a post about white women that exclusively date black men, and how they are "fetishizing" them?'

I think that would make a good post, especially concerning white women who go to 'the islands' for male prostitutes (though I'm sure they don't make up 1/100000000 of the German, American, British men who travel to Thailand for sex with young boys and girls

'No one, not men OR women, for that matter, walks into a bar and says "I bet so and so over there, is really smart and interesting, I shall go talk to them."'

But that's EXACTLY what Asian fetishists do. They zero in on anyone who hits their profile, go straight for them and promptly test out their Mandarin (even if the girl/guy is Japanese)

Virtually all our sexual hang ups, fetishes, and traits we are attracted to can probably be traced to racist, sexist, homophobic, etc (I hate to say etc, but...) aspects of our culture that we've internalized.
But there's a difference between recognizing, "I probably have a preference for Asian women/Black men/Blondes with big breasts because of the way my culture fetishizes them. The attraction is ok and I can act on it, but I'm not going to try to justify my preference by perpetuating racist/sexist ideas and I won't bring this suff outside the bedroom."
The problem with men with the "asian girl" fetish is that many men who have it love to justify their attraction with racist stereotypes and somehow that's "ok" in our society because it's "positive" racism.

1. Some people are physically attracted to features and body types often found in a particular race or races.

2. Some people are emotionally attracted to character traits often found in a particular cultural group or groups.

3. Some people are attracted to the idea of a particular race with the mistaken belief that race is automatically tied to cultural differences and by extension to character traits.

While all three preferences are being argued interchangeably in this thread, I would argue that only the third is problematic.

Edit: But there's a difference between supporting and perpetuating fetishization and recognizing, "I probably have a preference for Asian women/Black men/Blondes with big breasts because of the way my culture fetishizes them. The attraction is ok and I can act on it, but I'm not going to try to justify my preference by perpetuating racist/sexist ideas and I won't bring this suff outside the bedroom."

DocEss, no one said it's not okay to want to talk to someone, go on a date, or have a desire to sleep with them based on looks. But to want a relationship based on looks is wrong, and kind of bizarre. Think about that. That woman has big boobs, so I want to have a relationship with her. That makes no sense. And phsyical attraction can be based on other aspects of a person besides their outward appearance. When I first met my boyfriend, I thought he was pretty cute, but when I discovered that he's incredibly intelligent, an environmentalist, and a feminist I thought he was pretty damn hot. When I see an attractive man, and it turns out he's a sexist, classist jackass, the he becomes physically repulsive to me. His face actually looks ugly to me. To say physical attraction is based only on what someone looks like oversimplifies attraction.

Besides, stuff like the "East Asians are better women because they have straight hair and smooth skin" thing just echoes the "you're worse because you have curly hair" or "you're worse because you have hairy skin" crap black women and Middle Eastern women face.
East Indian women have hairy skin and curly hair... at least I do.

Kudos on this piece. I know someone who is the product of a mail-order marriage and his mother is anything but submissive and pliant. Same goes for my friend whose father is white and mother is Japanese.

The bottom line is that being attracted to someone because of a stereotype you have about that person's "race" (which is a social construct more than a genetic reality) is pathetic and sick. Similarly, writing someone off because of any other stereotype is wrong as well. Why people can't look past the easy route of stereotyping is a sign of the intellectual laziness that most people have. It's much easier to assume things than to learn about people.

Some people are emotionally attracted to character traits often found in a particular cultural group or groups.

Pengo? Quit stressing over ethnicity and your appearance. Just go for women with whom you have things in common and with whom you have mutual attraction.

My guy is chubby, geeky, and bald. And? To me he is hot. We have chemistry. I find him attractive even though chubbiness is not currently fashionable. I don't care what is currently fashionable. I care how he treats me and how we enjoy our time together.

As an example, I'm Italian, plumpish, and by most men's standards, damn hot. And not shallow about my choice of partners.

Go forth and find someone compatible and forget the rest of the details.

DocEss:For instance, I'm not attracted to Hispanic people. I'm simply not. Doesn't make me racist, doesn't mean I "fetishize" the races I *do* find attractive.

'Hispanic' people have a wide range of skin tones and physical appearances. You could line up any number of people and not tell whether they're Hispanic or not.
So I would say that your categorical rejection of Hispanic people is, in fact, pretty racist.

DocEss, I have to wonder why you don't find the entire Hispanic race attractive. Is it purely physical appearance or are there perhaps some deep seated stereotypes that lower the entire race's attractiveness? Because, surely, you're not saying that Jessica Alba and Eva Mendes are unattractive because of their physical features.

Personally, I've never understood the importance of race when evaluating attractiveness. People can be beautiful and ugly independent of it.

I actually find this entire article very contrary to my experience. I've had guys come out and say tell me that Asian girls are usually unattractive as a whole.

blondein_tokyo + xana:

i feel your pain. i lived in japan for 2yrs and lemmetellya: it was frustrating as hell.

(on a side note, am i crazy for thinking osaka was worse for it than other major cities?)

did you ever get the: gaijin girls and pringles refereneces??? we got it allll the time with JET.

in all honesty, nothing irritates me more than the "asian fetish". i pick up on it all the time now. although i don't live in japan anymore, i work at a thai restaurant with many SE asian waitresses (who get hit on alll the time, while i just get inquisitive looks as to why i'm not asian).

however, i find myself weary of the mistake of always assuming it's a fetish thing... i do know couples (ok, one) who don't seem to have that racial dynamic and are genuinely in love with one another.

"I think that would make a good post, especially concerning white women who go to 'the islands' for male prostitutes (though I'm sure they don't make up 1/100000000 of the German, American, British men who travel to Thailand for sex with young boys and girls"
You're right on the money. I did a joint reseach presentation on the sex tourism industry in graduate school, and gender was one aspect that we examined. We found that when men participate in sex tourism, they are likely to use services in which the women are underaged and in abject poverty and/or slavery, often tricked or coerced into prostitution. When women get prostitutes abroad, they are more likely to try to fulfil the fantasy of an island vacation romance. They often spend an entire day to an entire trip with the "escort," buying him gifts, paying for his meals, etc. The men, in turn, become wealthier and more powerful in their own community. They are seen, as in American society, as "studs."

[I just thought that I should clarify that this is not true for every situation in every country. Our research was focused on Southeast Asia and the Pacific Rim. There are, of course, going to be some exceptions on both sides, but these are what we found to be the most common scenarios in sex tourism. I would be glad to site numerous, academically valid sources, and I will if asked, but I am at work right now.)

Samhita, thank you for this post. I've dialogued on this topic many times. When it comes to men who have a history of dating Asian women, I have seen both sides of the coin -- some who, for example, simply grew up in areas of California where there were lots of Asians, and thus his social circles were primarily Asian, then logically, so were his girlfriends. I also dated one guy who seemed nice enough, until we had this conversation:

ME: Why do you date only Asians?

HIM: I find their features attractive...

ME: (Okay, no harm done...)

HIM: ...and I believe they are more family-oriented.

ME: (raises eyebrow)

HIM: Actually, I prefer women from Japan, China, and Korea. They fit my "type" more than you do.

ME: Okay, bye!!

(By the way, I'm Filipino-American. Apparently he made an exception for me. Bwaaaaa!)

Anyway, the exoticization of the East by the West is nothing new. I believe it stems from the imperialist tradition of Great Britain and the U.S. (a la Pinkerton in Madame Butterfly, who has an aria specifically equating the conquest of women with the conquest of land for the U.S. That story was written in 1898!)

"'Hispanic' people have a wide range of skin tones and physical appearances. You could line up any number of people and not tell whether they're Hispanic or not.
So I would say that your categorical rejection of Hispanic people is, in fact, pretty racist."

No, it's not, in fact, pretty racist.

What next, will you say that since I'm not willing to engage in gay sex, that I'm homophobic?

"DocEss, I have to wonder why you don't find the entire Hispanic race attractive. Is it purely physical appearance or are there perhaps some deep seated stereotypes that lower the entire race's attractiveness? Because, surely, you're not saying that Jessica Alba and Eva Mendes are unattractive because of their physical features."

I'm not saying Hispanic people are ugly or anything, I'm simply saying they aren't attractive to me personally.

"Personally, I've never understood the importance of race when evaluating attractiveness. People can be beautiful and ugly independent of it."

Sure, that's a fair cop, but preferences on what people find attractive vary greatly. Something either is, or is not attractive to someone.

Doesn't generally make it racist, or sexist.

Claiming someone is racist because they don't date members of a particular race is grasping at straws, though.

You can't force yourself to be attracted to something or someone, just to make sure you're politically correct.

DocEss, this is mind boggling to me. Hispanic people are a huge group of people, and as mentioned above, that group encompasses an extremely wide range of physical attributes, and while you said you don't think they are "ugly or anything," you admit that you are not attracted to anyone who is Hispanic. Thus, it is their Hispanic-ness that makes them unattractive to you, which is just exactly racist.

No, you can't force yourself to be attracted to someone to make sure you're politically correct, but you can't pawn off internalized racism as just a personal preference when it encompasses such a huge class of people. There are hispanic women who are blonde, blue eyed, fair skinned and who look quite European. You have decided that even if a Hispanic woman looks like a non-Hispanic woman whom you are attracted to, she is by default not your type because of her ethnicity. Get a dictionary, and quit trying to assuage your guilt. Cognitive dissidence is not fun, but deal with it.

No, it's not, in fact, pretty racist.

What next, will you say that since I'm not willing to engage in gay sex, that I'm homophobic?

Wow.
That's not the same, and you know it.

Hispanic people are every color, size, and shape. So the fact that you dismiss Hispanics categorically merely for their social designation is racist.

Thank you, kmp

"Hispanic people are every color, size, and shape." - Juan Stoppable

So are homosexuals.

This is completely off topic, so feel free to ignore me if you feel I'm hijacking the thread:

My father is of Cuban heritage and although he speaks spanish, he was not born in Cuba. (His mother was.) Thus, I identify as white.

He is dark skinned and I was also dark skinned up until adolescence when my pigmentation changed pretty drastically.

Whenever the topic of race/nationality/etc. comes up in conversation, my partner refuses to acknowledge my hispanic heritage, and jokingly states that I am a "half-breed" so I "don't count" and that since I am no longer so dark skinned I can "pass" for white, so I should consider myself white. I would be fine with this assesment, except for the fact that I don't think he has a very high opinion of hispanics in general. It makes me feel as though he's trying to whitewash me or something...

Is my anger legitimate? Should this not offend me because I'm not "really" hispanic? To take it one step further, would the general consensus be that I can/should identify as hispanic? I'm really lost on this.

Again, my sincere apologies for going off topic. I am more inclined to trust a feminist's opinion on this and I don't know a single feminist "in real life".

Doc and noname -
There is an obvious difference between racist ethnic preference and actual sexual orientation. Please stop being deliberately idiotic.

So are homosexuals.

Are you serious?

Making some hair-brained justification for your racism by equating it to a form of sexuality is... well I'm at a loss as to how to describe it.

The category of Hispanic is so diverse that saying you're fundamentally not-attracted is basically saying you're fundamentally racist.

I'd personally extend that to any racial grouping, but still.

Morosa, it sounds like your partner is not being respectful of you. You are Hispanic. You are also Caucasian. You are not a "half-breed." What a horrible thing to say. I am Caucasian. I have Italian, Irish, and the teensiest bit of Native American in me. Most American people are what your partner would so disparagingly call "half-breeds," or "quarter-breeds," or just straight up "mutts" if he wants. You can identify however makes you comfortable. Your anger is absolutely legitimate. He needs to treat you with more respect, and his barely below the surface racism needs to be addressed. It may be possible for him to see why the way he talks and feels about your ethnicity is hurtful and wrong, and you both can come out of this a stronger couple. It also may be possible that you won't. If he can't treat you with respect, you'll have a big decision to make.

Thanks for the input and validation, kissmypineapple.
Much appreciated.

Morosa,
How you choose to identify is up to you, but being white and hispanic aren't mutually exclusive.

If you do identify as hispanic, and your partner thinks it's ok to marginalize a part of your ancestry, then you have a right to be angry.
I know being able to 'pass' feels like a reprieve sometimes, but if people around you might be given to disparaging others who share your ancestry, it'll make them think twice when one of those people is someone they know.

“Hispanic people are every color, size, and shape. So the fact that you dismiss Hispanics categorically merely for their social designation is racist.� - Juan Stoppable

You base your argument here on the fact that Hispanic people are every color, size, and shape. You use this to try to differentiate them from homosexuals in terms of Docs original argument. Of course, this differentiation cannot be shown in this manner if homosexuals also are every color, size, and shape (they are).

“Making some hair-brained justification for your racism by equating it to a form of sexuality is... well I'm at a loss as to how to describe it.� - Juan Stoppable

Don’t confuse me with Doc. I never said I wasn’t attracted to Latinas (I live down here and find them very attractive). I simply objected to your seriously flawed argument.

" Thus, it is their Hispanic-ness that makes them unattractive to you, which is just exactly racist."

No, you're putting words in my mouth and misconstruing statements to suit your own ends.

Hispanic, just like Asian, European, African, Indian, etcetera, imply a certain general set of features.

If someone differs from those features by a huge amount, it is safe to assume they've got more than just one race in their heritage. If you mix someone to the point that their race is indistinguishable, then you can't rightly say what they are, and it makes the whole point moot, making the classification name only.

I don't much approve people twisting statements so as to prove their own point, rather than accepting things as they are presented.

To bring to a head, the general physical features that are generically referred to as "Hispanic" are unappealing to me. I refuse to accept your designation of "racist" simply because I'm not attracted to a particular race.

Racist implies someone hates people of other races, or of a particular race.

My being naturally attracted most to members of my own race is not racist.

Does it mean I think people I am not attracted to are subhuman, worthy of scorn or hate? No. You're attempting, very badly, to slap a label on me that doesn't fit, simply because it fits your personal agenda at this moment.

"There are hispanic women who are blonde, blue eyed, fair skinned and who look quite European. You have decided that even if a Hispanic woman looks like a non-Hispanic woman whom you are attracted to, she is by default not your type because of her ethnicity. Get a dictionary, and quit trying to assuage your guilt. Cognitive dissidence is not fun, but deal with it."

See above: If someone has enough mixed heritage to give them eye and hair color and skin pigmentation that are not normally within their race, they can't go around identifying as that race anymore.

I have Native American, in large amounts in my heritage, but over the last few generations, it's been nearly entirely bred out. For all intents and purposes, I'm simply caucasian. I couldn't rightly go around and call myself Illini, now could I?

Finally, I simply do in fact refuse to be attacked because I'm not attracted to something you think I should be.

I think it's really pushing it to claim someone is racist because they have prefences with who they choose to date.

Ridiculous, really.

As for the topic at hand... I think there is a distinct line between being attracted to a person of a certain ethnicity, and being attracted to the stereotypes you imagine them to be.

Fetishizing Asian women and just being attracted to Asian women are not the same. As long as the person in question does not buy into the tired stereotypes and can see the woman for who she is, outside of her race... then it's nothing more than an aesthetic preference.

morosa - Perfect. I can't say it any better tha that.

Noname, to be clear, I was using "your" to mean "one's". sorry for the confusion.

DrEss:

I'm not sure what physical features you're implying. I'm also not sure why either a fair-skinned or any other color Hispanic person would not actually be Hispanic, but of 'mixed heritage.'

"See above: If someone has enough mixed heritage to give them eye and hair color and skin pigmentation that are not normally within their race, they can't go around identifying as that race anymore."

Um... Not quite sure if I get what you're saying. I know hispanic people, born in hispanic countries, who have blonde hair, blue eyes, and light-olive complexions... Their nationality has not been "mixed" with anything and they are still very much fair and very much hispanic.

?

Yeah, and I know black women with striking green eyes. Does that mean that green eyes are a normal trait within that race? No, they are not.

Juan Stoppable - Fair enough. No need to apologize when a little clarification is all that is necesary.

Noname & morosa, you are basically arguing a point that everyone agrees with already. We KNOW there is a difference and we're discussing the fetishists.

“Hispanic, just like Asian, European, African, Indian, etcetera, imply a certain general set of features.
If someone differs from those features by a huge amount, it is safe to assume they've got more than just one race in their heritage.�
That is just so much bullshit because it assumes that there exists such a thing as a purity of race or ethnicity. We are all mixed, even those of us who are from the Old World, but Hispanics are especially mixed. Here is the definition of Hispanic: “relating to, or being a person of Latin American descent living in the United States; especially : one of Cuban, Mexican, or Puerto Rican origin�, a person of Latin American descent can have varying degrees of Native American, European, African or Asian Blood in them.

Yeah, and I know black women with striking green eyes. Does that mean that green eyes are a normal trait within that race? No, they are not.

It's normal enough that no one should be gawking at them or telling them they must be mixed.

You're assigning a very limited set of physical traits to a group of people for whom a lot the traits don't apply.

Whatever traits you aren't attracted to could belong to a lot of people who aren't Hispanic. But the fact that you use the word 'Hispanic' to label your displeasure says a lot.

DocEss, you say you are not attracted PHYSICALLY to Hispanics. Someone else pointed out that Hispanic people are every color, size, and shape. Those are PHYSICAL characteristics. So yes, the fact that you dismiss Hispanics categorically merely IS racist. And the black woman with green eyes - is she not black because "black people don't have green eyes?" Because you also claim that if someone doesn't have the physical traits normally associated with an race, they are not that race. So if that black woman has green eyes how can she be black?

I have a friend of Cuban descent. Her mom came to the US from Cuba and my friend was born here. I am not sure about her dad; he is desceased. Anyway, you would probably not look at her and think "she's Hispanic." But she is. She has medium-brown straight hair and brown eyes. Medium skin. She's very thin. Are those "Hispanic" characteristics? Would you assume that you couldn't be attracted to her because she's Cuban or would you give her the benefit of the doubt because she doesn't "look Hispanic?"

merichan: Glad to meet another JET. :) I was in Fukuoka-ken.

DocEss, like I said, get a dictionary. Racism is not only hatred of a race, and it isn't necessarily hatred either. See below, pulled from the Oxford American Dictionary.

racism |ˈrÄ?ËŒsizÉ™m| noun the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. • prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief : a program to combat racism.

Beyond that, I'm so beyond disgusted at your belief that if a person has any mixed heritage then they cannot lay claim to parts of it. Racial purity...where have I heard someone going on about that...

Everyone is missing my point, or purposely misconstruing it to suit their own ends.

Don't give me "what ifs" and various extrapolations.

For instance, it is safe to assume that black/African = Brown hair, brown eyes, dark skin. Caucasian= Light skin, various light or dark eye colors, light or dark hair. Asian = Light to medium olive skin, dark hair/eyes. Hispanic (as listed above, Cuban/Mexican/Puerto Rican) medium to dark olive skin, dark hair and eyes.

Adding in ridiculous what-ifs, of "what if they look exactly like a person of another race? What if, what if, what if?!" is attempting to prove your own point by changing the original focus. It's a poor debate tactic bordering on logical fallacy.

By saying I don't find Hispanics attractive, would you feel better if I said I do not like the combination of medium to dark olive skin, dark hair and eyes?

It means the same thing for my original intent. You're just trying to twist my statements into a straw man for whatever purpose.

As I said, sure, you have exceptions to the rule, but they are the exception, not the rule. By and large, Asian people have certain characteristics, as do black people, white people, Latin people, etcetera.

"so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. • prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief : a program to combat racism."

My point exactly. Not being attracted to someone of a specific race is not racism. It does not claim that they are inferior to other races, or that others are superior.

A lack of attraction to certain physical features is not "prejudice".

"Beyond that, I'm so beyond disgusted at your belief that if a person has any mixed heritage then they cannot lay claim to parts of it."

I simply said that calling yourself a race when you haven't had any blood from it added in multiple generations is name-only. Like I said, I have Illini in me. Does that mean, that I can go around calling myself one? No. It's too far off, too diffuse. All I was saying is that there are specific generic characteristics ascribed to each race.

"Racial purity...where have I heard someone going on about that..."

I refuse to acknowledge intentionally inflammatory straw man statements.

Well, here comes inflammatory:

Are you being intentionally stupid? What part of "the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race" in the definition of racism did you miss?

I am of Italian descent. I have that magic combination of olive skin, dark hair, and dark eyes. I am considered white b/c I'm of European descent. Also, are you not aware of how many different ethnicities the term "white" encompasses. You say it's safe to assume that "white" people have light skin? Are you out of your mind?

It's not a "what-if" to say that many people do not fit the genetic stereotyping you are so fond of. People who are Asian do not fit in your box. People who are Caucasian do not fit in your box. People who are Hispanic do not fit in your fucking tiny box. It would be better to just say that you aren't attracted to the combination of olive skin, dark hair, and dark eyes. Because (1) not all Hispanic people look like that (not even most look like that), and (2) there are plenty of white people, asian people, african people, native american people who do. Singling out Hispanic people is racist.

And here's some more inflammatory, b/c I just can't resist: fuck you.

would you feel better if I said I do not like the combination of medium to dark olive skin, dark hair and eyes?

OK, so why didn't you point out that you aren't attracted to people from the Mediterranean? Because people with darkish skin, dark hair and dark eyes can be found across the globe.

And there ARE Hispanic people without those characteristics. Yet you keep referring to those characteristics as "Hispanic."

I simply said that calling yourself a race when you haven't had any blood from it added in multiple generations is name-only.

No, that's not what you said. You said if someone doesn't have the physical traits normally associated with an race, they are not that race. Which is incredibly ignorant.

“By saying I don't find Hispanics attractive, would you feel better if I said I do not like the combination of medium to dark olive skin, dark hair and eyes?�
Yes, as a matter of fact that would make a huge difference (I do find it closed-minded to exclude huge numbers of people from your pool of possible sexual partners on such strict pre-determined criteria, but whatever). “medium to dark olive skin, dark hair and eyes� are in no way restricted to Hispanics and as people have tried to explain to you there are PLENTY of Hispanic people who do not share those traits. Perhaps they are a minority but they certainly are not "what ifs" and “exceptions�.

"Because (1) not all Hispanic people look like that (not even most look like that)"

Uh, what? Are you trying to broaden what Hispanic defines?

People from Mexico are Hispanic. I'd say it's a safe bet that the vast majority are dark haired, dark eyed, and have medium to dark olive skin. Like I said, you're just purposely misconstruing statements because you want to be right.

Idiotic, really.

"(2) there are plenty of white people, asian people, african people, native american people who do. Singling out Hispanic people is racist."

No, I'm pretty sure that a standard black African person would not look like a person from, say, Mexico or Puerto Rico.

I'm not going to apologize for not being attracted to every single race on the planet.

You can call a preference "racist", but it doesn't make it true except in your "tiny little box".

To give generalized, generic physical traits to a race isn't racist. For the most part, the vast majority of Asians have dark hair and eyes. Sure, some don't, but we have the exception to the rule, not the rule itself.

Follow?

"No, that's not what you said. You said if someone doesn't have the physical traits normally associated with an race, they are not that race. Which is incredibly ignorant."

Mmm, context. If you noticed, I mentioned my own heritage in making that point. But fine, pretend to read what you want out of a statement.

Though, how dare I! I should generically be attracted to all members of every race, I don't want to be politically incorrect, or racist, now do I?

Though, I must be sexist and homophobic since I'm not gay, right? Oh, but you call that an ignorant statement, even though it's a perfect fit in comparison to your statements.

One can no more help being attracted to certain races than they can to certain genders.

I could easily say some males look very much like females, and vice-versa, to say that homosexuals come in all shapes and sizes.

I don't have to pretend anything, DocEss. You made a statement; I asked whether your theory applies to the black woman with green eyes (do her green eyes negate her blackness?) and you got pissy because people are asking you questions. And you're still people because we're pointing out your inconsistencies and just plain inaccurate proclamations!

"I do find it closed-minded to exclude huge numbers of people from your pool of possible sexual partners on such strict pre-determined criteria, but whatever"

Humans, as said, are visual creatures. Physical attraction, regardless of what some people want to admit, is a large component in physical relationships.

If you aren't physically attracted to someone in the least, how can you have a physical relationship?

“Uh, what? Are you trying to broaden what Hispanic defines?
People from Mexico are Hispanic. I'd say it's a safe bet that the vast majority are dark haired, dark eyed, and have medium to dark olive skin. Like I said, you're just purposely misconstruing statements because you want to be right.
Idiotic, really.�
The vast majority? What percentage exactly? What about people from Argentina let’s say?
They are Hispanic too. Many of them are in fact from European decent. Do they not count or something?
And are you really unable to see the difference between sexual orientation and plain preference? Or are you just playing dumb?

This is absurd. Hispanic is a huge umbrella term. If you said you weren't attracted to Mexicans, okay, that's one thing. But the label Hispanic is used from everything from Puerto Rican to Spanish to Brazilian to Mexican to Venezuelan to... etc. etc. etc.

To pretend that every part of the umbrella term Hispanic fits in your definition (dark haired, dark eyed, medium/olive skinned) is ludicrous and disingenuous.

"You made a statement; I asked whether your theory applies to the black woman with green eyes (do her green eyes negate her blackness?)"

No, but you're simply playing the context game.

I said that as an example that traits that are not endemic to that race can show up in it.

Point being, if you acquire so many traits from intermixing races that you no longer have any resemblance to your ancestors, and in fact look like an entire different race, then you can't really call yourself a race you no longer resemble.

Yes, race is mostly appearance, not simply national origin.

I have a cousin, white, bunch of white ancestry, born in Africa. Does that make him generically "African"? Would you call him African?

Could I call you racist for not calling him African?

Race does imply some physical traits, it simply does.

DocEss, "Hispanic" does indeed define much more, and include many more people, than you think it does.

"To give generalized, generic physical traits to a race isn't racist."

Actually, that's exactly what Carmen got called out for on Jezebel, by saying that all Asian girls are skinny with great skin. That was racist. So is your assertion that you're not attracted to anyone of Spanish/Hispanic descent or heritage.

Look, I don't give a shit about your sex life. What you're implying is that a particular race is unattractive (to you). That's racist.

Do you think DocEss finds all those Brazilian models unfuckable? They're Hispanic, afterall.

DocEss, nobody is ASKING YOU to change who you're attracted to. We are asking you to consider the fact that Hispanics do not all look alike, and that "dark hair/eyes/skin" is a characteristic shared by many, many NON-Hispanic people around the world.

My sister, also of Italian descent, obviously, has been asked on numerous occasions (by morons who probably think the same way DocEss does) what part of Mexico she's from. According to this argument: "if you acquire so many traits from intermixing races that you no longer have any resemblance to your ancestors, and in fact look like an entire different race, then you can't really call yourself a race you no longer resemble," she's no longer Italian, but has magically become Mexican. And just to head you off, we are only two generations removed from Italy. My dad was the first generation born here.

"What you're implying is that a particular race is unattractive (to you). That's racist."

No, and your statement is a ridiculous, flawed, fallacious slippery slope of an argument.

"Do you think DocEss finds all those Brazilian models unfuckable? They're Hispanic, afterall. "

What, are you now implying that I somehow gauge women on how "fuckable" they are?

I'd appreciate you not starting up with that.

"DocEss, nobody is ASKING YOU to change who you're attracted to. We are asking you to consider the fact that Hispanics do not all look alike, and that "dark hair/eyes/skin" is a characteristic shared by many, many NON-Hispanic people around the world."

No, but a lot of people are attacking me simply because I'm not attracted to those features.

What?! I would assume that YOU gauge how attractive women are by how "fuckable" they are TO YOU. i.e. Are you sexually attracted to them?

Nobody is attacking you for the physical features you like! We are explaining to you that those features are not necessarily Hispanic, and they are not unique to Hispanics!

"What?! I would assume that YOU gauge how attractive women are by how "fuckable" they are TO YOU. i.e. Are you sexually attracted to them?"

It's the way you phrased it. I've seen that terminology used here before, in an insulting manner, to refer to how men view the physical characteristics of women.

Besides which, there's a difference, in my mind, between finding someone simply physically attracted, and immediately thinking "I want to fuck them".

When you see someone you're attracted to physically, do you go right to thinking sex, honestly?

"Nobody is attacking you for the physical features you like! We are explaining to you that those features are not necessarily Hispanic, and they are not unique to Hispanics!"

And I'm saying they are generally, and generically a Hispanic feature, just like Caucasian implies a generic set of features. There are certain genotypes that result in certain phenotypes, that are simply more prevalent in certain races. That's all. You can't much argue genetics, now can you?

Yes, you're right about Caucasian implying a certain set of features. When I think of Caucasian women I'm picturing a woman who definitely has blue, brown, green, hazel, or grey eyes, most undeniably has very pale blonde, or mousy brown, or chestnut, or red, or mahogany, or black, or ashy blonde hair, can be counted on to have freckles...or not have them, tends to have very fair skin, or ruddy undertones, or has olive skin, and her hair is absolutely curly, or wavy, or straight. That's exactly what a Caucasian woman looks like.

DocEss: people aren't attacking you because you find certain features unattractive. People are not taking offense at your personal standards of attractiveness. We all find different features attractive. We're human.

What people are upset about is the fact that you're lumping millions of people into one stereotype of physical characteristics. Are you not able to see how that is offensive?
Saying, "All members of x group of people looks like this," is no different than saying, "All members of y group of people do this," or "All members of z group of people believe this."
That is racism. You can continue to try to justify it however you want, but it just makes you seem willfully ignorant.

"Saying, "All members of x group of people looks like this,""

I seem to recall I've repeatedly said "generally", not "exclusively".

Actually, Brazilians aren't Hispanic since they speak Portuguese and Hispanic refers to someone from Spanish speaking ancestry.

It's a made up word by the US government and doesn't really mean anything. "Hispanics" come from all parts of the world, are not a race, and indeed, are frequently very light skinned and European looking.

Mexican, is not a race, but a nationality, and the races within Mexico, who would be defined as Hispanic in America, are Native American, European, Black and most commonly, Mestizo, which is a combination of European and Indian. All Hispanics have European blood or African blood, if they DON'T have either, then they are just Native American Indian.

What's more Hispanic is not actually considered a race in America, or by the American Govt. and in fact people of Hispanic origin are racially considered Caucasian and this classification was used to actually discriminate against Mexican Americans. It was a way around integration.

If all this seems inconsistent or confusing, that's because it is, it's stupid and inaccurate. DocEss, I think when you say "Hispanic" you're really uninformed about what Hispanic means, and I can't be sure what group of people you are less attracted to because saying "Hispanic" just really doesn't mean anything. It is a very very broad term, like other people have pointed out. And that isn't up for debate, it's very simply a fact.

But more on topic, being unwilling to date or have an intimate relationship with a member of a particular race actually is a mark of racism. There is a sliding scale of racism, and please forgive me for not being able to remember the sociologist who came up with it. But in any case, not willing to have an intimate personal relationship with a member of a particular race or races is on the far end of the scale, but saying "no, I am not willing" still indicates racism, but a less intense form of racism than saying "I won't even talk to someone of a different race or of that particular race"

Obviously, lots of people share your feelings about only being attracted to their own "race" or excluding one particular race from their intimate relationships and I think it's a very common and accepted attitude but that doesn't really change that is indeed, a form of racism.

The funny this is, most humans have dark hair, skin and eyes. Blonde, light-skinned people with light eyes are relatively rare across the globe. And yet it's Hispanics specifically DocEss has singled out.

"But more on topic, being unwilling to date or have an intimate relationship with a member of a particular race actually is a mark of racism."

Then that's like saying I'm sexist/homophobic because I won't have sexual relationships with men. I cannot help what I find attractive. It's a very slippery slope to get on, because you could easily say finding any physical feature attractive is somehow slighting those who don't have it.

It's not so much "unwilling", it's that why would I bother trying to have a relationship (that would most likely have a physical component) with someone I'm not physically attracted to?

"Obviously, lots of people share your feelings about only being attracted to their own "race" or excluding one particular race from their intimate relationships and I think it's a very common and accepted attitude but that doesn't really change that is indeed, a form of racism. "

I fail to see how an innate preference that I have no control over is a form of racism.

Thank you for those clarifications, MirandaJay.
DocEss, it's amazing to me that after reading MirandaJay's comment you still don't get it.

MirandaJay, thanks for clarifying the definition of Hispanic. I hear it used to describe anybody from pretty much everywhere from the Caribbean to the tip of South America- good to know.

DocEss

The point is that 'Hispanic' isn't useful for describing physical traits, and your designating the generic traits you find unattractive as 'Hispanic' is very telling.

My dad and his brother are both Hispanic. They have the same ancestry. But in Florida, when they were kids, my dad was sent to a 'colored' school while my uncle was sent to a 'white' school. So much for genetics.

"I fail to see how an innate preference that I have no control over is a form of racism."

Because you attached your preference (or rather, preference against) to a specific "race." It's not wrong to have preferences, but it's important to understand that generalizing over an entire race is the essence of racism.

And, as MirandaJay so gracefully pointed out, the group against which you hold this preference is rather large and varied, and your notions of what constitutes a "Hispanic" look are incorrect and narrow-minded.

Well, as said above, "Hispanic" isn't even a race, per se. It's an umbrella term, like "European".

Would you prefer I say "Latina"? Either way, you're splitting hairs, because in the US, "Hispanic" carries a certain generally accepted meaning, as does "Latina/o", same as "Black", "Asian", "Indian", etcetera.

I believe you are, in fact, splitting hairs, as I am pretty sure you knew exactly what I was talking about in the first place.

Though, I wonder if you'd call black women that won't date white men "racist".

Would you prefer I say "Latina"? Either way, you're splitting hairs, because in the US, "Hispanic" carries a certain generally accepted meaning, as does "Latina/o", same as "Black", "Asian", "Indian", etcetera.

It would be preferable not to phrase your displeasure in terms of race, especially when the features you aren't attracted to aren't characteristic of, or in any way unique to, that race.

I find it interesting that you haven't responded to SarahMC or KMP about the banality of the features you don't find attractive. Also, you falling back on the old "Bu-but black people are racist toooo!" meme.

Well what do you mean by Latina? Do you mean women from Latin America? Because just like "Hispanic" Latinas can be Black, European, Mulatta, Parda, Native American Indian, or Mestiza Which one of those do you mean when you say Latina?

Perhaps it's "splitting hairs" to you because you see all Hispanics and Latinos as the same (ahem, racism), but I can assure you, to those of us who are Latina and Hispanic it is NOT splitting hairs.

I don't know exactly what you are talking about, no. Because you say you don't like the race Hispanic, but there is no Hispanic race. You say you don't like the race Latina but there is also no Latin race. Do you mean you don't find dark skinned people attractive?

Also, what do you mean an "innate attraction"? Do you mean biologically?

I would call anybody who won't date a particular person because of their race, racist, yes, because they are. That includes Black women who won't date white men, or who don't Black men.

You know, I just wanted to say I was really personally offended by you saying the definitions of Latinas and Hispanics and the races that make up those terms is "splitting hairs". That comment in itself is racist.

MirandaJay - Word up! (Do people even say that anymore?). 100% on the money, honey.

"Also, you falling back on the old "Bu-but black people are racist toooo!" meme."

No, I'm not. It was to prove a point. Very few people even addressed it the last time I brought it up. Some people, either consciously or not, carry the idea that only white people are racist, and only men are sexist, and will tend to sooner attack white people/males for things than they will minorities/females.

"Because just like "Hispanic" Latinas can be Black, European, Mulatta, Parda, Native American Indian, or Mestiza Which one of those do you mean when you say Latina?"

Yeah, except...no. "Latina" = "Person from Latin America", which, for your helpful hint of the day, Latin America is not in Europe.

If your parents are Irish, and they move to Brazil, and have you, that doesn't make you a Latina. It makes you Irish.

Just like I said earlier, I know white people born in Africa. Would you call them "African"? Probably not. Could I call you racist for that?

"Because you say you don't like the race Hispanic, but there is no Hispanic race. You say you don't like the race Latina but there is also no Latin race."

Quote me where I said "Hispanic race" or "Latin race". Please.

"Also, what do you mean an "innate attraction"? Do you mean biologically? "

No, I mean innate.

Innate: "existing in one from birth."

Meaning, I have, as I said, an innate preference. A preference that's been there from birth. My heterosexuality is innate. Like that. Follow?

"I would call anybody who won't date a particular person because of their race, racist, yes, because they are. That includes Black women who won't date white men, or who don't Black men."

So, saying I am attracted to pale skinned caucasians is racist?

Look, employment, schooling, housing, these things are equal opportunity.

Dating is not affirmative action. Nor is sexual attraction.

It's not not dating them because you have a negative opinion of their race, it's not dating them because you don't find their appearance attractive.

So, DocEss you wouldn't call caucasian people born in Africa, African?
What do you call caucasians born in the U.S.? You don't call them American do you? I sure hope not...

You're only Irish if you're a citizen of Ireland, Irish isn't a race, it's a NATIONALITY. Latin is not a race either, neither is Hispanic, neither is Irish, neither is Brazilian or American for that matter.

Yes, Black people born in Latin America are Latin, White people born in Latin America are Latin, Asian people born in Latin America are Latin. LATIN IS NOT A RACE. Please, please do go look this up. You are just really misinformed about this.

And yes, white people who are born in Africa are African.

These of course are considered attractive traits in our society in either sex, so without even having to check whether they actually are more common among Asians, the larger claim is pretty well falsified by the fact that you see way more white guy/Asian girl couples than white girl/Asian guy.

TPS12,

While this may be one reason, another is the fact that Asian males are portrayed negatively in the American MSM as a previous commenter has noted. In fact, some of the positive traits such as being smart is often spun negatively so it is considered "nerdy" when applied to Asian men.

Moreover, the more commonplace occurrence of AF/WM couples in American society and in expat communities in Asia is the legacy of a longstanding colonialist mentality tinged with a toxic mixture of both sexism and racism.

This carries over today as many of the same White dudes who are ok with dating Asian/Asian-American women are disapproving when they see AM/WF couples. It's ok if dating Asian benefits white dudes. If dating Asian ends up injecting dating competition, the same white dudes become quite pissed.

This carries over into the MSM where AF/WM couples are becoming normalized while AM/WF couples are practically non-existent. The latter is considered an aberration and is something my older male cousins and their caucasian wives have to deal with on a daily basis.

Moreover, there seems to be this family dynamic which allows the Asian-American women I knew far more freedom in dating outside of their ethnicity than their male counterparts. In fact, most Asian-American families I knew seemed to have a strong preference for their sons to marry within their ethnicity. Fortunately, my family is nothing like this as several of my older male cousins could happily attest.

In addition, from what I've gathered from chatting with Chinese students from the mainland and Taiwan on this topic, most males have a strong preference for marrying within their own ethnicity...or other East Asians. While racism is a factor, another is the strong prevailing fear of losing their cultural heritage/culture clash in a world strongly influenced and dominated by western culture.

There also seems to be the unflattering stereotype of white women as sexually promiscuous, brash, arrogant, and other negative traits which make White women unattractive to most Chinese men. I don't know how much of this is nonsense spread by White men and Western MSM and how much by firsthand experience in dealing with obnoxious arrogant demanding western tourists/expats where such obnoxiousness would be more noticeable from women due to plain old neo-Confucian sexism. Incidentally, these are also the reasons why they find Asian-American women unattractive.

Wait just one fucking minute.

Didn't you say you were part Native American Indian and European? You're a Mestizo, too!

You do realize that the stereotypical media image of a "Latina" is Mestiza - Native American Indian and European and so you are thusly, not attracted to your own "race" even though you said you were innately attracted to members of your own race? You're not making ANY sense!

(First comment should say "his mother and father were", not "his mother was". The perfectionist in me is compelled to correct that.)

DocEss: If you met a woman who fit your criteria of attractiveness, but then learned that she was hispanic, would you find her to be less attractive? Would you no longer find her attractive, period?

From what you've been saying, I think I can already guess your answer...

(First comment should say "his mother and father were", not "his mother was". The perfectionist in me is compelled to correct that.)

DocEss: If you met a woman who fit your criteria of attractiveness, but then learned that she was hispanic, would you find her to be less attractive? Would you no longer find her attractive, period?

From what you've been saying, I think I can already guess your answer...

Dammit. Hate when that happens.

DocEss already told us that someone he's attracted to couldn't possibly be Hispanic.

Of course if they are Hispanic, and don't fit his preconceived notions, then they must be some strange exception, or have actually had their Hispanic nature bred out of them and are too stubborn to admit it.

"Didn't you say you were part Native American Indian and European? You're a Mestizo, too! "

Uh, what?

"a person of racially mixed ancestry, esp., in Latin America, of mixed American Indian and European, usually Spanish or Portuguese, ancestry, or, in the Philippines, of mixed native and foreign ancestry."

You're trying really hard to fit something into that definition that doesn't exactly fit.

Besides which, some Illini, many generations ago does not make me call myself anything other than an American with European heritage. The great majority of my blood is Scots and German.

The rest of your statement is bordering on silly, and not worth a reply.

"If you met a woman who fit your criteria of attractiveness, but then learned that she was hispanic, would you find her to be less attractive? Would you no longer find her attractive, period? "

I've never seen a pale, caucasian Hispanic woman with (preferably) red hair and green or blue eyes.

At least not any that self-identify as such.

So you are ONLY attracted to pale, caucasian women with (preferably) red hair and green or blue eyes? You never find tan brunettes beautiful? Or pale brown eyed women with dark hair?
I find that really hard to believe.

Seriously. Since red hair is even more rare than blonde, and since green eyes are even more rare than blue, perhaps you're so ornery b/c you can't find a mate that suits you.

"So you are ONLY attracted to pale, caucasian women with (preferably) red hair and green or blue eyes? You never find tan brunettes beautiful? Or pale brown eyed women with dark hair?
I find that really hard to believe."

Well, I don't know what to tell you other than that's the way it is.

I've seen blonde women that I find attractive.

Outside of that, I don't find brown hair or eyes attractive.

I mean, I won't apologize for it, I simply don't. Find it as hard to believe as you like.

"Seriously. Since red hair is even more rare than blonde, and since green eyes are even more rare than blue, perhaps you're so ornery b/c you can't find a mate that suits you."

I'm dating a woman with red hair and blue eyes.

Also, resorting to the "I don't agree with you, and you say what you say because you need to get laid" or whatever, is a fairly weak argument.

Also, kind of sexist, actually.

It's just weird. I mean, I don't really have a type, although I find myself attracted to white men with dark hair a lot (especially Jake Gyllenhaal).
But I still think Justin Timberlake and Matt Damon are hot. Denzel Washington is incredibly handsome. Grant Hill was my middle-school crush, haha. I'm attracted to Daniel Dae Kim and Eric Bana and Marat Safin. It's not like I notice one of these men has, eeeew the wrong eye color and suddenly find him unattractive. Maybe I'm weird for not having rigid qualifications.

"It's just weird."

I suppose so. It's never seemed weird to me, just the way I am.

"It's not like I notice one of these men has, eeeew the wrong eye color and suddenly find him unattractive. Maybe I'm weird for not having rigid qualifications."

See, it's not so much "rigid qualifications", as it is certain things are not attractive to me, or that certain things make someone less attractive to me.

If Eric Bana had a huge beer gut, but looked otherwise the same, would you still find him attractive? :p

I didn't say you couldn't get laid. I said it must be frustrating to have it be that difficult to find someone you would want to be with. That's why I didn't say, man, you must be ornery b/c it's so hard to find a woman to have sex with. I said "a mate that suits you." And, for the $64,000 question, do you know what sexist means? I mean, I'm sure you have your dictionary at the ready. After reading this thread, and the McCain thread, I really don't think you know what sexist means. If I'd called you a "dick" (look, one of your favorites!), that would have been sexist. If I'd said, "you're ignorant b/c you're a man", that would have been sexist. Saying that you might be on the cranky side b/c you're sooooooo incredibly picky, mean-spirited, childish, obnoxious, sophomoric, any of those would be absolutely correct. Sexist...not so much.

In any case, Doc, you'd better not let your woman stay out in the sun for too long. You never know. She might start to look like tohs groce hispanic ppls!!1 Y'know, that incredibly broad group of people that you have so kindly narrowed down for us. Darkened skin is clearly the first sign that she's turning. The next thing you know, her ass will start growing to epic proportions and every meal will be arroz con frijoles.

Trust.

I've never met a man who didn't consider Jessica Alba, or Eva Mendes, totes hot.

Guess there's a first time for everything.

pineapple, actually, it would be sexist, because it implies that the object of your statement is in need of/looking for a mate.

If I said a woman on this thread was ornery because she couldn't find a man, that would be considered pretty sexist, no?

"In any case, Doc, you'd better not let your woman stay out in the sun for too long."

I don't "let" her do anything. If she wanted to go out in the sun for extended period of time, she certainly could.

However, much like myself, 20 minutes in the sun without block results in a fairly solid burn, and not much else. Neither of us tan.

"I've never met a man who didn't consider Jessica Alba, or Eva Mendes, totes hot.

Guess there's a first time for everything."

I've met ones that don't find them attractive.

Would you be shocked to learn that I find Angelina Jolie highly overrated?

You just hate context don't you? Saying someone is cranky b/c they can't find a mate in the context of their having extremely narrow standards is not sexist. Saying that a woman is ornery b/c she can't find a mate, if she was going on about only liking pale skin, green eyes, and red hair, that would not be sexist either. Saying that she's ornery b/c all women really want in life is a man, would be sexist.

See, context though, would say you were finding me ornery because I couldn't find/was having trouble finding a mate.

Which implies one is looking/needs one.

Regardless, that's mostly semantics.

It's still not a proper statement, as it does imply someone's mood is based on them finding a mate or not.

"I don't "let" her do anything. If she wanted to go out in the sun for extended period of time, she certainly could."

It was sarcasm. -Though I'm pleased to hear that you allow your girlfriend free access to sunlight.
[smirk]

Which still isn't sexism. I already said that it wasn't a proper statement. It was mean spirited and really quite childish. It was meant to be.

In any case, Doc, you'd better not let your woman stay out in the sun for too long. You never know. She might start to look like tohs groce hispanic ppls!!1 Y'know, that incredibly broad group of people that you have so kindly narrowed down for us.

I also hope he never meets the fair-skinned, red-haired Mexican woman I subletted to over the summer. His head might explode from the cognitive dissonance.

"I also hope he never meets the fair-skinned, red-haired Mexican woman I subletted to over the summer. His head might explode from the cognitive dissonance."

Must you persist with anecdotal evidence?

So, you know one Mexican with fair skin and red hair.

I've seen a few hundred thousand without it.

If you want to cure any American guy's fetish for Asian women, just have him watch the Japanese film "Audition". Every time he sees a seemingly sweet and docile looking Asian female, somewhere in the back of his mind, he's going to hear "Kitty-kitty-kitty!"

DocEss: So why all the "blah blah Hispanic Hispanic" crap? Why didn't you just say "I'm not attracted dark hair and eyes," instead? Because apparently you don't like it on white women, either. You could have saved yourself a lot of grief.

Juan Stoppable: LOVE the name. Now we need a Kim to match...

Must you persist with anecdotal evidence?

So, you know one Mexican with fair skin and red hair.

I've seen a few hundred thousand without it.

In that case I'm sure you've also seen thousands with those features as well, but since in your mind they aren't Hispanic, it simply doesn't count.

But by all means continue to embrace your prejudice and dismiss the relevant experience of minority groups as anecdotal.

Anecdotal evidence is easily dismissable, as it is not statistical.

I don't find it to be "prejudice" to say that the vast majority of Mexicans have dark hair and eyes.

Apparently you have never watched Spanish television before, Doc. Telemundo, Univision? Especially the actresses on the telenovelas, VERY light skinned people, blonde hair, blue eyes.

I'm Mexican American and I haven't even seen a few hundred thousand Mexicans.

To go back to your example of homosexuality, maybe you are only identifying people as Mexican who have dark hair, skin and eyes as such because they fit your stereotype of what a Mexican should look like.

Anecdotal evidence is easily dismissable, as it is not statistical.

I don't find it to be "prejudice" to say that the vast majority of Mexicans have dark hair and eyes.

You weren't talking about Mexicans specifically. You were talking about How all Hispanics have dark hair, and dark eyes and if they don't they must be some crazy exception or be of 'mixed heritage' and not really Hispanic. You also saw fit to voice your lack of interest in Hispanics specifically, even though there are a large number of non-Hispanic people who fit the description of unattractive that you provided.
You've been told you're characterizations were wrong by multiple people, yet only our statements have to bear the burden of statistical evidence.

Obviously, none of us have any idea of who we, our friends, and our families are. Thank God that you were here, DocEss, to set us straight.

"Apparently you have never watched Spanish television before, Doc. Telemundo, Univision?"

Nope, I certainly don't. I don't watch any American television, either. I don't watch any television.

Besides which, even if I did, I only watch things in one of the two languages I speak. Outside of that, there's not much point, is there?

"To go back to your example of homosexuality, maybe you are only identifying people as Mexican who have dark hair, skin and eyes as such because they fit your stereotype of what a Mexican should look like."

Stereotypes come from somewhere. Is it a stereotype to say the vast majority of men have one X and one Y chromosome, despite the fact that some have two X and one Y, or that some are trans, and only have two X?

A: I'm not attracted to Jews.
B: Er, what? Why?
A: Because they have big noses.
B: Well first of all, not all Jews have that particular physical characteristic. Secondly, there are a lot of people from other ethnic groups who do have that trait. So to use "Jews" as a stand-in for "people with big noses" is racist.
A: How dare you! I'm not racist! You can't force me to be attracted to all women and men and trees and unknown substances in my kitchen sink....::spittle flying::
B: Um, no. People may or may not be attracted to certain physical traits, but to make generalizations about a diverse group of people like that is ignorant. Instead of using stereotypes you could have just said that you are not attracted to specific physical characteristics like X, Y, and Z.
A: But you can't force me to be gay!! And I've been to a bar mitzvah. And there are genetic mutants out there who claim to be whatever race and ethicity and nationality suits them at whatever time with no basis. And you can't make me gay!

Is that pretty much it?

DocEss: "Point being, if you acquire so many traits from intermixing races that you no longer have any resemblance to your ancestors, and in fact look like an entire different race, then you can't really call yourself a race you no longer resemble.

Yes, race is mostly appearance, not simply national origin."

Seriously though, I am genuinely unsure of what you mean. For example, Jessica Alba is half Mexican and half white, while Cameron Diaz is half Cuban and half white. Alba's tanned skin, dark hair, and dark eyes make her more typically "Latina-looking," whereas Diaz's pale skin, blonde hair, and blue eyes make her appear Caucasian. So according to you, are they both equally Latina because of their actual heritage? Or is Alba legitimately Latina, but Diaz is deluding herself by identifying with her Latina roots because she does not fit the physical description you associate with people of Latin descent?

If you do not find Alba attractive because of the color of her skin, hair, and eyes then that is understandable. But really, what would be your reaction if you thought Diaz was attractive then found out about her ethnic background? Would it change your perception of her and her attractiveness? I don't want to get off too far on "what-ifs," but I am genuinely curious as to your interpretation.

Overall though, I really don't understand what is so difficult to grasp here. Saying that you dislike X, Y, and Z and prefer A, B, and C is fine. However, saying that you are not attracted to a huge diverse group of people because you associate them with those certain undesirable physical traits is offensive and inaccurate, to say the least. As many people have pointed out, 1) not all members of that particular group have those characteristics, and 2) many people of other groups do have those characteristics. Such a generalization just isn't an accurate representation of your 'rules of attraction,' if in fact your preferences are seated in an innate attraction to specific physical traits rather than based on racist beliefs.

Yes, Black people born in Latin America are Latin, White people born in Latin America are Latin, Asian people born in Latin America are Latin. LATIN IS NOT A RACE. Please, please do go look this up. You are just really misinformed about this.

And yes, white people who are born in Africa are African.

This isn't actually true. The whole idea of being born somewhere makes you that is very much an American thing. I mean, I know some other countries give you citizenship for being born there automatically, but my sister was born in Japan. She's in no way Japanese.

Rockstar – this is an aside, but some white families have been in Africa for centuries, or at least several generations.

Bowleserised-
also an aside...I'm aware. But her argument was that being born somewhere makes you that is simply untrue.

This is a weird thread. Some dude says he's not attracted to Hispanics, and people are all "You don't find Eva Mendes or Jessica Alba teh hawt?! Brazilian models aren't fuckable?!?! What about Cameron Diaz!!!!!" It's the weirdest argument ever. Not everyone is attracted to teh hawt celebrity icons, is this a surprise? I'm not attracted to George Clooney, does that make me totally weird?

While it's not important that Doc be attracted to random_hollywood_actress, I do agree that it's important to establish that racial and ethic traits are not 100% in a group, and there can be a wide variety of appearances. People are going to think I'm silly for this, but until recently I didn't realize that Indians were considered Asian. When I first found out, I was like "But Indians can't be Asian, Asians look like [stereotype]". Then I realized I was being dumb. Hopefully Doc comes to the same realization I did and recognizes that all Hispanics do not look like he thinks they look.

I've never seen a pale, caucasian Hispanic woman with (preferably) red hair and green or blue eyes.

Let's see...I have a male Mexican-American friend (first generation, born to illegal immigrants), with pale skin, hazel eyes, and lightish brown hair with a red tint.

I also have some blue-eyed, pale skinned cousins in South America. They had a German grandfather, but are culturally very much "Hispanic."