That's sick. Throw them in jail so that the next pack of predators knows that serious consequences would arise if they are caught.

I don't agree that jail is the answer to everything.
Especially with young teenagers that are bound to remain criminals and even reoffend when they are released.

This is in the above link: "The program was very successful in protecting the community, changing sexual offenders' attitudes and behaviour and ensuring they did not reoffend"

That's the most important part, to protect other women from these crimes. What use is it to just stick them into jail and then have them reoffend?

I guess that's just the american way of looking at things.

"The maximum penalty for the offences is three years in youth detention."

The most you can get for sexually assaulting, physically assaulting, and filming and distributing pornographic video of a minor is three years? 16 and 17 year old boys are old enough to understand what they did was wrong, and I sincerely doubt 9 months of rehab will prevent them from further harming/degrading women. Though, I don't think three years in prison would do much either.

I'd like to know more details about that rehab program.

I agree with Zwillingsmama. Their crime is obviously terrible, but making an effort to rehabilitate them is more likely to improve their behavior than sticking them in a cell with a bunch of thugs.

Just another daily reminder, ladies, that they hate us.

Eight teens film themselves raping and assaulting an (also) underaged girl, distribute it like a fucking trophy and someone actually asks: "What use is it to just stick them into jail and then have them reoffend?"

Why it is an either/or choice? Can't they be DESERVEDLY locked up and receive this treatment? Why should there be NO punishment for such a vile, evil crime?

I also agree that putting juveniles in jail is very problematic. This crime was horrible but rehabilitation programs in other developed countries tend to be much better funded than our own. I don't think incarcerating these youth will make them any less likely to re-offend. Like Shiftercat says we don't know enough about the program and would probably all have different opinions if we did, but I don't think that from this article we can really say that the offenders are going free or that their punishment is not appropriate. It is tempting to act out of vengeance and anger when so many of us know exactly what this kind of victimization feels like, but we should always endeavor to choose punishment that makes sexual assault less likely to occur in the future. It may very well be that rehabilitation is that choice.

Maybe I'm having an unusually rough day at work, but this story makes me want to shove those kids' faces in dog shit and then beat the living hell out of them. No, jail doesn't do anyone any good but I doubt rehabilitation will "correct" them either. I'm sorry but what they need is a serious, severe ass-kicking. And I bet the parents are staunchly defending them, huh? If any son of mine ever did something like that I'd be so ashamed I'd kill myself.

" but we should always endeavor to choose punishment that makes sexual assault less likely to occur in the future."

Yes, of course, the goal is to reduce and prevent such and similar crimes in the future.

Asking how this will be accomplished by allowing those who commit such and similar crimes to walk away with just a little mandatory therapy is comprised of more than a revenge fantasy.

And I bet the parents are staunchly defending them, huh?

Actually, according to earlier articles, the parents were the ones who turned them in.

To be fair, they are also on probation which is very typical for first time juvenile offenders. That means if they commit any other crimes while on supervised release they will likely serve some time. I suppose it comes down to if you believe, or if the evidence supports, the notion that jail sentences limit future crime. I don't have good numbers on that.

Sarah - it's not you alone. Ass-kicking is lightweight compared to what I've heard others say they'd prefer done to these eight pigs.

But as for extra-judicial punishment, that's a different story. They definitely deserve an ass kicking.

Hopefully it's electroshock therapy.

Betty,

Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, surrounding young offenders with thugs encourages them to bond with and adopt the lifestyles of those thugs. Making them go through a year of therapy may help them bond with human beings instead, and _not_ do this kind of thing (or the smaller, if no less cruel, common variations for which they are less likely to be caught) later in life.

I also have yet to see any evidence that harsh prison sentences have any deterrent effect whatsoever in this demographic. You really do get an either/or choice here: vengeance, or correction.

To me, correction is one of the major supporting pillars of any functioning system of justice. Vengeance is not.

My major concern with the article as listed is that there appears to be no component of restitution, which I think is the other major pillar of criminal justice. It's good that the offenders will end up in a high success rate rehab program, but someone had best be paying the victim for her own therapy, medical issues, and effects of trauma on her future. Absent that, there was in fact a miscarriage of justice here. I'm not very familiar with the Australian legal system, however, and it is possible that a civil case may still be pending.

Why IS it either/or? Boys who find themselves capable of acts like this need to be removed from society completely unless and until they are completely rehabilitated. Can you imagine being 17 years old, have THAT happen to you, the film distributed around your school and among your peers for shits and grins, then have to see THOSE SAME BOYS everywhere you go? Can you imagine at all what she must be feeling? If that were my son, I would have him committed and tested for serious psychological problems. How big a step is it from setting a girl on fire, pissing on her and raping her while filming and distributing it to brutal serial sexual crimes and murder? Why are we always and forever looking back and saying 'should've' instead of thinking forward and protecting our girls and women?

I agree that jail would not do them much good, but at this point I don't really care to do them many favors. There's already so many reasons why victims of sexual crimes don't come forward to name and help prosecute their attackers, I think this sentance only reinforces the belief that the legal system is not going to protect us. I don't think the sentance is an adequate response to what this girl endured. What's done is done though, and I just hope that she is able to move on with her life as best she can.

Zed - the restitution part is about the only part I can get on board with.

Simply put, I don't give a rat's ass about the rapists. I know this tends to make me unpopular in progressive circles. (I am the definition of the 'bleeding heart progressive/liberal' in all other areas except crime).

I do care deeply about correction and prevention. But without punishment this speaks volumes about what victims of brutal vile assaults can expect from life afterward. As someone else pointed out, what about the victim? How is she to be "corrected" while knowing that those who did this to her are walking around free? That what they did to her didn't even warrant a light prison sentence?

I don't care if these little pigs go to therapy and come out perfect little boys. What *might* happen in the future does not (or rather should not) preclude them from receiving punishment they deserve.

That said, the restitution thing is a wonderful idea.

I'm 16 now, and it absolutely terrifies me that this happens in my age group. I see this and I feel so terrible for this girl, and then i think, "could this happen to me? could I be destroyed like that by boys I see everyday in school, and then not get justice for it?"

How must she feel, after already being tortured by those monsters, and then having the courts basically tell her that what they did to her isn’t wrong, as long as they don’t do it again?

I want to cry. I want to be a super hero and go around and fix all this wrong that just screams at me from injustices like this. I'm usually quite eloquent and I cant even form a sentence to sum up why this is so horrible. I guess it just doesn’t need to be summed up. It speaks for itself.

>

While I understand the desire to get revenge, to be violent and harsh to these young men, I struggle so much with statement like Sarah's and the one above. The idea that ass-kicking and violence and dehumanization would somehow fix anything here, or even the imagination of such things, seems problematic to me. I understand the inclination to want to get at them, but I would like to suggest that violence and harshness only begets more violence and harshness - real, imagined, or blogged about. I would hope that we would want these men to be rehabilitated (if possible) AND receive punishment for their crimes, but I would hope in a humane way that honors their inherent worth and dignity - no matter what their crimes - which they clearly have failed to honor in others. Although it might sound trite or naive, I do believe that we need to respect the humanity of our worst enemies.

Not to put words into Zed's mouth, but I think that most of us who are suggesting that prison may not be the answer are not doing it out of concern for the welfare of the perpetrators but out of concern for the women they encounter later in life. If these kids were to spend 3 years in a detention facility, surrounded by people who, for all we know, might applaud this behavior, it seems to me that they'd be more likely to continue their abuse of women than if they were actually to get some treatment.

I think there's an argument to be made for committing them a live-in rehabilitation clinic, basically a hospital, though, both for the girl's sanity and to keep them away from society until they are capable of behaving like humans.

I, too, am not in favor of punitive justice, but I agree that there should be some restitution.

Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, surrounding young offenders with thugs encourages them to bond with and adopt the lifestyles of those thugs.

They gangraped a teen, set her hair on fire and urinated on her. Then they distributed a video of the attack. Guess what? They ARE thugs.

"Cunt the Video"??? That video of the gang rape those little boys made just made my blood shoot above 212 degrees!

Here is what I would do to those boys: throw them in a pit with lions.

elizabeth199: Out of curiosity (I am not judging you, I promise, my earlier comment was hyperbolic) what SHOULD we do to reform rapists?

Actually, everyone here-- what do you think would be the ideal way to handle/punish/reform violent rapists? I actually think that while incarceration or some other physical prevention is necessary, there should be therapy too, so that when they are released they hopefully have overcome their need to control others. But I don't know if that would even work, and I'm curious to see what other people here believe is the proper response.

Hmm, I attempted to include the statement by Betty Boondoggle (which is what I meant by "the one above" but it didn't show up. Apologies.

Laurelyn, you sound very eloquent (and intelligent) to me.

And everyone, I never said a good asskicking would be the perfect punishment for this crime. I was expressing my anger and my feeling that they DO indeed deserve to feel the same pain they inflicted on that girl. That is what they DESERVE. That is not what we should do to punish them. I don't know what we should do to punish them.
Cases like this make me re-think my stance on the death penalty.

Basiorana, I'm not sure what I think we should do. I suppose, as you suggested, some form of jail and therapy. I like the idea of jails as places where people get treatment, yet, also don't have a fun time. It should be hard, unfun, something people want to avoid (a deterrent) yet should involve intensive therapy, particularly for sex offenders. I don't know enough about therapy to know what is effective...

I think Zed makes a really good point.

I can also understand the very visceral reactions from Sarah.

Anyways, I don't think that is unreasonable to want more from the justice system than it seems to be giving in this situation. 9 months of therapy? 9 months of therapy is going to adequately address deep seated violent tendencies? Will that really make women safer? In 9 months how will this girl feel? Even an ounce safer? I doubt it. It seems to me that the judge expressed a level of sympathy towards the boys that he didn't express towards their victim. His decisions affect her and her future just as much as it does the boys who are being senteced. And any case that seems to be favoring rapists over victims makes me sick.

They need rehab, but more than 9 months. And that girl needs a lot more than that.

They gangraped a teen, set her hair on fire and urinated on her. Then they distributed a video of the attack. Guess what? They ARE thugs.

So we should lock them in a box with other thugs and tell them they'll never be accepted by anybody else so they might as well continue what they're doing? That hardly seems helpful.

Elizabeth199 - Since its these eight young rapists who have comitted actual crimes, and Sarah simply vented some complicated feelings on the matter, how about we don't conflate the two. She wasn't saying she will actually get revenge. She is a woman who, upon feeling despodent and presumably helpless to fix the situation, vented.

androidqueen - Agreed. The most important things now are to ensure the victim has the resources to rebuild her life and to ensure these eight rapists don't do it again. Rehab and therapy are good things. However, preventing them for harming other women is easily attained by not allowing them out of prision. Again, I understand opinions such as these make me unpopular. To me, committ the crime? Do the time. And for especially horrible crimes such as this, I fail to see the reason in allowing them another go at life on the outside. They were old enough to know what they were doing was both illegal and immoral. They knew how to meter out the abuse and how to spread it around to make her humilation and assault complete and eternal. Let them rot in jail til kingdom comes.

Of course, were the lives of women and girls valued to the degree of males lives, this wouldn't be an issue.

Only 8 of the boys were charged with rape - there were 11 in the attack. One girl set upon by 11 thugs who raped her and set her hair on fire, filmed it, and distributed it to the entire community.

Yeah, therapy is probably fair in that case.

Yeah right.

We're overpopulated as is, why not let these pieces of crap fall off a cliff?

“Actually, everyone here-- what do you think would be the ideal way to handle/punish/reform violent rapists?�

Here is my solution: I am going to start a vigilante justice squad. Anyone here wants to join me? I am absolutely not after correction, only “elimination�. Though they are gonna have to pay before being “eliminated�. Rubbing their face in dog shit sounds really appealing to me. I have other ideas too, but I I don’t want to get too graphic.

“I would like to suggest that violence and harshness only begets more violence and harshness - real, imagined, or blogged about.�
Really? If I imagine violence, while sitting on my ass, it begets more violence? Who knew?

the boys should be locked up if for no other reason than to protect their victim while she tries to heal.

as well they should be locked up for their own protection until passions die down. i am having a hard time restraining myself from shearing off a few dicks, so i can imagine there are people in their own community who are ready to do the same.

also, why do we have juvenile detention at all if it's just a place for thugs to recruit thugs? can't these a-holes be incarcerated somewhere full-time while undergoing intensive therapeutic treatment?

Let them rot in jail til kingdom comes.

Betty Boondoggle, interestingly, I might be more inclined to agree if there were a long jail sentence. As it is, the maximum sentence is 3 years, and, seeing how quickly they'd be out again, it just seems to make more sense to me to make an effort to make them realize how horrific their actions were.

"So we should lock them in a box with other thugs and tell them they'll never be accepted by anybody else so they might as well continue what they're doing? That hardly seems helpful."

You're right. What really REALLY matters here are the boys and their feelings.

You're right. What really REALLY matters here are the boys and their feelings.

Okay, now that's really twisting my words. I never said anything about their "feelings." If they think the only people who will accept them are ones who expect them to continue treating women like trash, they will continue to treat women like trash.

Holy crap, only NINE MONTHS of therapy? I've been in therapy five times that long, and I've still got issues. I can't imagine how well any shrink could whittle away at the violent, deep-seeded misogynistic rage in that amount of time!

"I might be more inclined to agree if there were a long jail sentence. "

Well, that's rather the point, isn't it. Were there actual justice, there would be longer sentences. Notice I did not say, "let them rot in jail until three years is up".

But, the victim was just a female and after all we have the lives of eight precious boys to think about. I mean, they have futures! They have lives to live! They can't be expected to pay for committing crimes against some girl!

(for the sake of clarification, I am not suggesting this last bit is what you, Androidqueen, thinks. I am remarking on the sad state of "justice" for women in a patriarchy)

i am having a hard time restraining myself from shearing off a few dicks

And how.

Like I said, I'm sorry for using harsh language & graphically describing the violence I'd like to do to those boys. I KNOW we can't allow vigilante justice. But talking about the sorts of revenge they deserve while not literally advocating it is OKAY. Fuck them. Seriously. I would not bat an eyelash if someone were to wipe them all off the face of the planet right now. It is about fucking time the public got upset by the prevalence of rape and other crimes against women and girls.

I can't imagine how the young woman must feel. If it were me I would have had to leave the community and I wonder whether I would ever have fully recovered. The rage I would feel at the injustice might be over-powering.

An enormous injustice has been perpetrated here. These young men were found guilty of violent crimes against that woman. They should have been removed from the community. In the interest of society I agree that it would be better if they were sent to an institution that focuses on rehabilitation, but if one isn't available that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be taken away.

I believe that it's better to demonstrate to them that heinous transgression will be result in a long loss of freedom than demonstrate to them that they are far more important than the women they abuse. This decision is a blank check for all of them to continue on their current life paths. I'm horrified.

Wow. Alot of people here must be pro death penalty.
That's scary.
Just think, what do most sex offenders do when they get out of jail? They rape a woman. Therapy is really needed ESPECIALLY with young teenagers where there's still a high chance of "fixing" them.
Please don't forget, the main goal here is to not let this happen again. And if their program has been proven to work, why not?

Zwillingsmama I'm not sure if you intend to or not, but you are, in my opinion, coming off as very dismissive of the victim and the feelings of those enraged by this.

It's not as simple as "why not just therapy?" What message does it send to a rapist that after he and 10 of his friends gang up on a girl that the worst they get is a few months of therapy?

And once again, it not happening again is easily acheived by life in jail. Or the death penalty, come to think of it.

if therapy fixes them and they never do it again -great. They were also never punished for their crime sending a nice loud message to other rapists that if you can suffer through a few months in therapy you can rape with impunity.

You're quick to shame those who are angry, while frankly, you're not angry enough.

Holy crap, only NINE MONTHS of therapy? I've been in therapy five times that long, and I've still got issues. I can't imagine how well any shrink could whittle away at the violent, deep-seeded misogynistic rage in that amount of time!

If detention facilities just allow thugs to recruit thugs then my solution is solitary confinement, not letting all the thugs go with hugs and kisses.

“Actually, everyone here-- what do you think would be the ideal way to handle/punish/reform violent rapists?�

I'm not sure if I should feel embarressed to admit this, as a die hard liberal on a liberal blog...but the ideal way to deal with violent rapists is to kill them.

That sort of premeditated and *post*meditated action (distributing tape afterwards) sacrifices their right to exist in my society. I don't have a need to destroy them personally, I just want to ensure they will never, ever hurt anyone ever again. There is only one way to ensure that. And it isn't therapy or 3 years in jail.

But my feelings about rapists are...stronger than most, I guess.

You know what stands out the most for me in this case? Six guys in Jena, LA were charged with attempted murder and conspiracy for beating up a guy who was then well enough to go to a school function the same evening. They literally faced decades in prison. Many of them were the same age range as these guys. Just to put it in perspective. Rape simply isn't treated as a serious crime. Period. Bodily assault is treated with more severity.

Zwillingsmama: Therapy is very effective, but not a) if the patients don't want to go (and I'm sure these guys don't), and b) for such a short amount of time.

I'd say minimum five YEARS of therapy, maximum being the rest of their natural life. Regardless of whatever prison sentence they might receive. The first year or more might be spent just trying to get them to accept the help.

I am just left wondering what any of us can do. I speak out when I can, and so forth, but events like this make me feel like I am falling well short of having an impact.

Really, what can we do? Either here specifically, or in a larger way, so this madness stops? How do you fight the overwhelming sadness and horror well enough to do anything at all?

I agree with Basiorana. As a mere undergrad psych major, I don't have years of field experience. But, case studies I'm familiar with that attempt therapy for sexual dysfunctions usually take years, and most require therapy throughout a person's life. The unhealthy and dangerous attitude these guys have towards women is impossible to cure in 9 months. There is no way a 9 month program is going to "fix" them for life. Gang-raping, peeing on, setting on fire...that sort of behavior isn't fixed in nine months.

You're right, Blitzgal. Possession of marijuana is taken more seriously than rape, for chrissakes.

I do not believe in the death penalty, and I'm definitely a progressive. But I also feel that these boys are pieces of shit. People who do shit like that do not deserve heroic efforts to make them behave like humans. They should be locked away--not tortured or raped, just kept from being able to hurt others, like rabid animals. If I were their mother they would be dead to me. This kind of brutality is a sign of a deep, deep sickness that a few months of therapy won't treat.

I do not believe in the death penalty, and I'm definitely a progressive. But I also feel that these boys are pieces of shit. People who do shit like that do not deserve heroic efforts to make them behave like humans. They should be locked away--not tortured or raped, just kept from being able to hurt others, like rabid animals. If I were their mother they would be dead to me. This kind of brutality is a sign of a deep, deep sickness that a few months of therapy won't treat.

Apparently in Australian, an 18 year old caught with possession of cocaine might end up doing more time than these kids if the strict letter of the law is followed.

"The penalty for the possession of drugs not related to trafficking is a maximum fine of $3000, or one year imprisonment, or both."

http://www.druginfo.adf.org.au/browse.asp?ContainerID=drug_laws

They are pretty lax on marijuana there though.

Funny thing is, if you asked me if I believed in the death penalty for murder (or even in general), I'd probably answer negatively. Maybe hemm and hah about it a bit, make some noises about circumstances and whatnot.

But when it comes to something like this, proven, horrible, unquestionable violent rape, the answer just seems to well up from within. It's not about revenge or even punishment. It's about taking a stance on the subject that will send an unquestionable message to the vast number of people who apparently think it's "not that bad."

I guess I instinctually see it as simple math. The lives of proven violent rapists have much less value to me than the possibility of preventing futher incidents in the future, whether by the same people or simply others seeing that they can get away with it with a slap on the wrist.

I'm with you, Nick.

Aside from the debate about what the punishment *should* be, what punishment do you think they *would* get if it were being done to a man? or if it were being done by a person of color against a white person?

Regardless of the *best* course of action for future prevention, that's not the reason that these youths are walking free.

Blitzgirl has already pretty much said it, but...

I think a lot of people are missing something here. The point isn't whether imprisoning violent criminals is really the best system... that's really a seperate debate. The point is that in western society, we do send violent criminals to jail. The fact that these boys were not sent to jail indicates that their crime was not taken seriously. That is the outrage here.

I agree that this act was and is horrific. The victim needs to be allowed the opportunity to feel safe, to recover, to get on with her life. She should certainly receive therapy, paid for in some way or another by the offenders or their legal guardians, and she should certainly have the security of knowing that the young thugs aren't out in public, where they can find her and "punish" her for getting them arrested.

However, I've known a few career criminals before. Nothing as horrific as this, of course. In prison, inmates meet 3 kinds of people. 1-guards, who don't like them. 2-petty criminals, who're in-out in a short time. 3- career criminals and/or serious offenders. At 16, 17 years old these boys are still young enough that they have a good chance of being educated out of this sort of behaviour. Do I care about their wellbeing? Not in the slightest. What I care about is what will happen when they get out. If these boys spend a few years in prison, surrounded by older people or others of their own age who, aside from the guards, condone/appreciate/encourage/excuse their behaviour, it is more likely they will reoffend, surely?

The ideal situation would be a combination of prison.therapy, with a longer sentence than 3 years and intense therapy etc THROUGHOUT. I agree that 9 months of therapy sessions is not going to root out whatever venom is in those boys, but as much as it would make me feel DAMN GOOD, I don't see what real benefits there would be from JUST putting the boys in prison or castrating them or getting some other revenge.

And while putting them away for the rest of their lives sounds like an option, in realistic terms the sheer size of the prison population we would end up with would be unworkable.

Either way, that sentence was WAY too light.

That said, while we're fantasizing about punishing these boys, I'm all for imagining them dumped each in their own oubliette.

Damn, sorry, that was longer than I intended. And see that under_zenith has just pretty much blown away the point I was trying to make by making it clear why everyone is REALLY pissed off.

Sorry, again.

FemiDancer,I apologize if I am misunderstanding your comment above, but what these animals did has nothing to do with sexual dysfunction (I do see you may have just been using dysfuction as an example of how long one must be in therapy for it to be at all effective). Sex actually has much less to do with rape than most people assume. Obviously sex is a factor, but not due to any uncontrollable urges or fetishes or anything like that.

but this story makes me want to shove those kids' faces in dog shit and then beat the living hell out of them.

Makes two of us.

... and another sad reminder of the stupidity of people in groups.

This is absolutely horrific. I would normally agree that jail isn't always the answer, but what sort of message are they sending with this? A group of guys can rape you, humiliate you by pissing and spitting on you, set you on fire, then film it and distribute it as though they are proud of it and all they get is a few months of therapy. That's a crazy message to be sending to the victim and to every other girl out there. They're telling her she's worthless, that a crime perpetrated against her will be given a lesser punishment than possesion of drugs or theft or anything else.

I'm sorry, but I think that 9 months of therapy is VERY lenient.
I was raped last year and I never wanted to see that guy again. I can't even imagine that times 11, and knowing that they are roaming free.
Couldn't they have COMBINED jail with that therapy?
I've been in therapy for 11 months from what happened to me and *I* am nowhere near "fixed."

Bunny: I had to look up an oubliette. :) And I think it would be a fitting plan. Though, I kind of wish secretly that they would have their hair lit on fire, peed on and then have the video passed around to all their buddies. Not very humane or liberal progressive of me, but sometimes imagining eye for an eye justice is okay?

I'm sorry, but I think that 9 months of therapy is VERY lenient.
I was raped last year and I never wanted to see that guy again. I can't even imagine that times 11, and knowing that they are roaming free.
Couldn't they have COMBINED jail with that therapy?
I've been in therapy for 11 months from what happened to me and *I* am nowhere near "fixed."

I believe in a social contract. In order for us to function as a society of (at times barely civilized) pack animals, there has to be a social contract. Certain things have to happen in expected order. Properties/territories must be passed peaceably between owners, and justice for crimes must be swift, appropriate and highly visible. I believe that while we are all born homo sapiens sapiens, membership in the human tribe is conditional. Violate the social contract, and you're out. We can't hang wrongdoers in the village square anymore, or run them out of town with pitchforks, but we're supposed to have something better. We don't. This is just example x^infinity that we don't.

I've often said in my personal life that sometimes people do things that just simply mean they cannot be my friend anymore (a situation where one friend stole the husband of another and allowed him to leave her absolutely penniless with his young child comes to mind). I think the same thing is true of human society. You can just. fucking. blow. it. They blew it. They're out of here. Locked up forever, whatever, ask me if I give a shit what happens to any of them. 15 and 17 is old enough to know better. You don't DO THAT and get to walk around, or be coddled through a paltry 9 months of therapy and be absolved. You. Just. Don't.

Nick, SarahMC,

What is wrong with the death penalty is not that “all human life is sacred� or that “we need to respect the humanity of our worst enemies.�, yada yada. It’s not because there aren’t certain individuals who deserve to die, No. I most certainly think these boys deserve to die. I am against death penalty because where it is carried out, it is most of all the black or Latino man who was railroaded who gets it (That, and it has not benn proven to affect crime rates). So yeah, I am against death penalty, but there are quite a few individuals I would very much like to kill with my own hands.

Blitzgirl, under_zenith:

It's not really fair to compare this situation to one in the US. Just so we're comparing apples to apples, from what I can find of Australian law, an adult is convicted of "sexual penetration without consent" is liable for up to 14 years of imprisonment, and an adult convicted of "serious assaults" is liable for up to 10 years of imprisonment. Someone please correct if this information is incorrect. I cannot find the information for minors, though.

sojourner, I am not a death penalty supporter. But I would still like to kill these boys.

Ailei: ah, I myself throw around the term "social contract" a lot as well. That's basically how I think of situations like these. You do certain things, you forfet your right to be a part of society. And since we no longer have prison colonies (and aren't to the prison planet stage yet), there seem to be limited ways to really deal with it. Lock them up forever or kill them.

SarahMC: yeah, I think we're on the same page. Difficult thinking of oneself as liberal, progressive, etc while also dealing with instinctual responses like that, huh? I think I'm okay with it. Political/social leanings aren't a checklist that if you fail to check one box, suddenly you don't fit anymore. There's room for variety.

Sojourner: that's an insightful view. I definitely understand how our system of justice can misuse it. But in that case, aren't you more "pro-legal system reform" as opposed to "anti-death penalty?" We were discussing the optimal, pie-in-the-sky way to deal with offenders like these...

But what you said about crime rates in interesting. Frankly, the only way to determine what effect instituting the death penalty for violent rape would have, would be to do it. I can't think of a situation where we've had a good study of a particular type of crime before the death penalty was instituted for it, and a generation or two after it was instituted for it...I'm talking a change of societal expectations here, which wouldn't happen in 5-10 years.

Femidancer; the only reason I know what an oubliette is, is because of David Bowie's amazing, mesmerising package in Labyrinth and the consequent, many many repeated viewings of that movie!

And the fire/pee video could... be done before-hand and occasionally be played back to them via a little TV screen in the oubliette?

“"pro-legal system reform" as opposed to "anti-death penalty?" We were discussing the optimal, pie-in-the-sky way to deal with offenders like these�
Nick, It is impossible to have a judicial system that does not make mistakes, ever, simply because we are human; and death is completely irreversible. It is also impossible to have juries w/o prejudice. There are other issues too. Like I said, it has been shown not to affect crime rates… but I don’t want to hijack this thread.

"Aside from the debate about what the punishment *should* be, what punishment do you think they *would* get if it were being done to a man?"

If it the victim had been a man, they would have gotten the maximum sentence at least. This reminds me of that group of lesbian women who were convicted of assaulting a man that had been harassing them and apparently was the one who started the trouble. Different country, of course. But I seem to recall they got YEARS in prison and they didn't violently rape him and spread the vid around in celebration. (someone correct me if I'm wrong)

If you steal a car, sell some weed, have too many pets in your house – you go to jail. They don't pat your hand and give you a few months in therapy. I don't think it could be laid any more bare that women are simply unimportant to a patriarchical world. I am offended by those who are not outraged by this.

"Aside from the debate about what the punishment *should* be, what punishment do you think they *would* get if it were being done to a man?"

If it the victim had been a man, they would have gotten the maximum sentence at least. This reminds me of that group of lesbian women who were convicted of assaulting a man that had been harassing them and apparently was the one who started the trouble. Different country, of course. But I seem to recall they got YEARS in prison and they didn't violently rape him and spread the vid around in celebration. (someone correct me if I'm wrong)

If you steal a car, sell some weed, have too many pets in your house – you go to jail. They don't pat your hand and give you a few months in therapy. I don't think it could be laid any more bare that women are simply unimportant to a patriarchical world. I am offended by those who are not outraged by this.

“Frankly, the only way to determine what effect instituting the death penalty for violent rape would have, would be to do it. I can't think of a situation where we've had a good study of a particular type of crime before the death penalty was instituted for it, and a generation or two after it was instituted for it...I'm talking a change of societal expectations here, which wouldn't happen in 5-10 years.�

Sorry I didn’t see this part of your comment. Studies have been performed. I have seen a few. I could dig them up but I don’t have time right now. Perhaps you can google them.

This makes me sick to my stomach...

"It's not really fair to compare this situation to one in the US."

Point taken, androidqueen. However my main point addresses societal attitudes toward rape, and those in Australia seem to be on par with ours in this country. Again, in Jena those guys were facing decades in prison for a physical assault. Rapists in this country usually get out in five to ten years. In the Australia case, they're being sentenced to 9 months of therapy! Not only did they gang rape her and physically torture her, but they also sold the footage. What wonderful little capitalists.

This is far beyond what 9 months of therapy can repair. And I still stand by my point -- rape is NOT taken seriously as a crime, not here in the US, and apparently not in Australia.

This story makes me want to cry. And the fact that people are supporting the fact that these violent criminals who have committed a sexual assault of a magnitude which could only be greater if it had involved murder have gone free makes me want to cry even more. And break things.

You know, I believe in rehabilitation, too. I also believe in the right of women to not be gang-raped on tape while having their hair set on fire. And I believe that some people are not going to be reformed. Tell me how you reform someone who does this.

If you think that these kids aren't going to reoffend because of a little program, you're fucking nuts. I think that "date rapists" can probably be reformed. Their crimes are horrific and they still deserve jail, but "date rapists" are generally men who have extreme boundary and power issues. These boys don't have an issue with taking no for an answer, or thinking that women should always be sexual available to them or thinking that rape is "not a big deal" (at least, not on its own). These boys have a problem with thinking that sadism and rape are fun and should be shared with everyone. They're two completely different things, people.

I couldn't give a shit less about these boys right now, though. I'm thinking about the girl. You know, the rape victim who so many here seem to be not discussing at all. Think about how she feels for a moment. Keep talking about rehabilitation and how they're juveniles, but take a moment to think about what she feels. How, exactly, would you feel, if the boys who purposely and gleefully brutalized you and then distributed it to others so that they could jack off to it got away with no jail time? Would you feel like the world was on your side, or that it ever would be again?

So talk about rehabilitation. That's nice. But let's not just ignore the fact that while these boys are being "rehabilitated" (ha!), this case is also going to further discourage countless rape victims from reporting their crime.

Jumping in here a little late, but lets say that these boys came from an already "good" background, at least some of them had to. So, all these "good" boys, raped a girl, set her on fire and pissed on her, filmed it and then bragged about it. And their punishment is 9 months in therapy, which they can probably fake their way through.

If they were already "good" boys engaging in this kind of behavoir, then quite frankly they do need to be be behind bars for a very long time. It's amazing to me how very few people, though some have mentioned it, seem to think that they won't just get worse outside of jail. At least in jail they will be punished in some form or fashion as they deserve to be. Like someone mentioned above, the only message that this sends is that if you rape a woman you'll get a slap on the wrist. It's not like the therapy is going to take up every hour of their day and as I said I doubt they'll take this seriously and I'm going to bet that their parents and community are making excuses for their behavior so that they don't have to take responsibility for what they've done. That's a wonderful message to send to young women.

I have heard reports of rapists being reformed, but only after years of therapy done in jail. And as we all know, it doesn't work for all of them.

I am inclined to think that the only way of stopping violent rapists is to kill them. Unfortunately, as Sojourner points out, the people who get executed in areas with the death penalty are almost always those at the bottom of the social ladder, not those who deserve it.

One area I definitely have to agree with is that these young rapists should be removed from their community. The victim and her family should not have to move away to avoid them.

One idea I have heard of some communities doing (albeit for small crimes) is a sort of public shaming: the perpetrator writes a speech explaining his crime and outlining all the people it's affected and why such things should not be done, then recites it to a gathered crowd. Sometimes they make him wear a sandwich board and walk up and down the street.

I saw a news item about towns doing this some years back, but never heard any more about it.

God I hate this. The thing is, in a perfect world where the justice system was not corrupt, classist or racist, where we could magically establish the truth rather than buy a ruling - I would support the death penalty.

Not for ending a life necessarily. I think that's a stupid be-all-end-all, as there are reasons to kill.

But for extreme sadism. For rape and extreme sexual assault. For torture. For killing someone for pleasure.

I agree that prison would only make these guys worse - but what the FUCK will help? Certainly not less than a year of therapy - do they have other restrictions?? House arrest, SOMETHING? It makes me want to vomit, especially since it's so close to home (I'm used to hearing fucked up stories from the US...)

Reading this story makes me sick. But the inclination to focus on what a tragedy it would be if these brutal gangrapists lost their freedom is so much worse. It's just absolutely bizarre to me. I'm all for restorative justice when it's appropriate but therapy and probation is neither restorative or justice. Not by a longshot. They should be in jail for a VERY long time.

Adding to what sojourner said about the death penalty, I'd like to add that when the death penalty was permitted for rape in the United States, it was used almost exclusively for black men accused of raping white women. It should be no surprise to anyone here that these convictions often rested on very flimsy evidence. (Think "To Kill A Mockingbird.") The Supreme Court declared the death penalty for rape unconstitutional in 1972.

The death penalty in the United States is still overwhelmingly disproportionately sentenced to people, usually men, of color. The American Bar Association has called for a moratorium on the death penalty. Here is their reasoning:

http://www.abanet.org/moratorium/why.html

If I thought some form of corporal punishment, up to and including the death penalty, would be evenly and fairly applied to violent rapists, I'd stand behind it 100%. I honestly think serial rapists should be castrated. But, since I frankly don't have that kind of faith in the justice system, I can't get behind permitting the death penalty for rape.

ANDROIDQUEEN: "I agree with Zwillingsmama. Their crime is obviously terrible, but making an effort to rehabilitate them is more likely to improve their behavior than sticking them in a cell with a bunch of thugs."

My first concern is with deterring future acts - to send a signal that horrible acts will be punished severely..

Why don't most people steal from video stores? Because you know you are likely to be punished if you do. Why do people download songs illegally? Because are unlikely to face a stiff penalty.

I completely agree that punishment is only one part of the solution. Changing the kid's attitudes, and gender attitudes toward forced sex in general, are two other important steps.

Currently the message from the justice system is a) If you commit rape, you're unlikely to be caught; b) if you are caught, you are unlikely to be convicted; c) If you are convicted, you're punishment will be pretty light.

That's not exactly the recipe for deterring a behavior.

I'm absolutely appalled at this verdict. I've been following this case since the beginning - it happened in my hometown, and several of the perpetrators went to the same school that I did.

I hate this attitude in the judicial system here - and particularly, it seems, of crimes of this nature - to utterly ignore any harm done to the victim or potential harm done to others. A bit of light therapy poses absolutely no deterrent to these boys or to anyone else, and the perpetrators manages to get off easier than their victims. All of these offenders should have been doing a couple of years of hard time in Werribee Prison.

I'm too scared to actually go out at night in that city because of the spate of violent attacks on women over the last year or so. If an utter slap on the wrist is all that someone gets when they do get caught, where in the hell is the deterrent for others to go out and do the same?

no, they should be put in a normal prison.

because maybe then-when they may be sexually assulted and beaten up like some prisoners are in jail, they may understand a fraction of what they did to this girl. empathy is a great tool. but i must admit this story is the saddest and most sickening i have heard. my blood is truly boiling right now!

My opinion: they should go to prison, BUT they should be put in solitary confinement for three years. The only human interaction they should be allowed is in therapy, and schooling, since I think juvinle criminals need to be able to continue their education behind bars. When they are not in therapy, they will either be doing their schoolwork, or in solitary confinement. But I do belive that placing them in a prison with other thugs will just make them more screwed up, and that's the last thing the world needs.

nakedthoughts, Betty Boondoggle: Actually, knowing how most of the world feels about homosexual sex, if it were done to a man they might BLAME him for it somehow. I don't know if that would happen in Australia, but I am reminded of that rape case in Dubai where a young man was violently, brutally raped and not only is he being hindered in his attempts to press charges, he's actually been threatened with arrest for homosexuality.

And there is a definite sense in most cultures that a man "can't" be raped by a woman, which is a total and complete myth. I think the problem is RAPE is not treated severely enough by our legal system, not just the rape of women. Of course, any law changing how rape is handled by the justice system would primarily aid women as they are more often the victims, but I am merely saying that the law often does not protect men who have been raped, especially homosexuals or minorities.

However, that does not change the facts of this case or that these boys are being treated with kid gloves for a brutal, dehumanizing and sadistic crime.

jillas: I'd like to think anyone who managed to maintain an erection at all during such forced brutality qualifies as sexually dysfunctional.

ShifterCat: If someone wore a sandwich board saying "I am a rapist who lit a teenage girl's hair on fire and urinated on her," that WOULD be the death penalty. I can think of many, many parents, siblings and friends of rape victims who would be happy to play executioner.

Bunny, I agree with you. Man, I wonder what these boys' parents were like, and where the FUCK they were when their sons were doing this. Children CAN be so impulsive and cruel...especially when they are just "adult" enough to take that impulsivity and hormonal hell and do something this sadistic and psychotic.

Damn, I'm so late for this, but oh well.

Prison (esp. in America)serves to temporarily incapacitate sex offenders, which is absolutely necessary, but it's also a scene for prison rape (revenge only goes so far...something awful tells me I would probably support torture if I or someone I knew/cared for knew the horrible indignity of being the victim of a sexual/other violent crime) and reinforcement of criminal behaviors/ties.

Incapacitate them, try to treat them (Lord...no one with the power to appropriate good studies believes in sex offenders, and what little research exists is pretty bleak, but not ENTIRELY bleak), devote more attention to the factors of sexual offenses (I think ALOT more attention should be paid to the differences and comparison btw. juvenile and adults sex offenders), and f*ck, chemically castrate them. They might be sick and angry, but testosterone and dick-as-weapon gives those emotions some teeth. De-claw those boys.

Something tells me that the parents are culpable in part for these shitbags, too...I wish I could put them on trial too. (Granted...plenty of normal people have kids that f*Ck up and it's not their fault...and the their are parents that all hold down the victims or and their messed up, miserable kids the gun, knife, etc. they use to subdue them.

Doesn't Australia have an even higher sexual assault rate than America does, as far as developed democratized countries where women have some rights go?

Y'know, I don't give an airborne copulation about those 'boys' or their rehabilitation or whatnot. They are little better than rabid dgos and I've always found it curious that we take pity on rabid animals and put them out of their misery, but insist on 'correcting' humans beings, often to our sorrow.

I feel for that young woman, knowing that the fates of those creatures are held in greater importance than her emotional and mental well-being. What is being done for her? I have a feeling the answer is 'zilch'.

Although I do not care about those little jerks, I think they should be put in juvenile detention (if only so the girl does not have to see their scumbag faces) and receive intense therapy. They cannot just go free after torturing and humiliating this poor girl. It teaches them...what?... that there are no consequences for their heinous actions.

Reading this makes me feel like I'm going to be sick, my pulse is way up, and I feel like going and kicking their punk asses.

I AM a 17 year old girl and having been raped under circumstances that do not even compare to this incident, but did cause Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, I can't imagine what this girl is going through.

I do not believe in rehabilitation for sex offenders. Therefore, I do not believe that these young men (boys, imo, is a word that elicits childhood and to some extent, innocense) will learn a damn thing. In the back of these little shits' minds, they will be *pleasantly surprised* that they got away with it. They may be the subject of threats at the moment (I don't know if this is indeed correct), but I would bet that plenty of other fuckers are getting ideas (cool enough to be imitated).

A legal system that mocks the severity of this incident is not one that will be supportive of other women who have been or will be raped, but will instead intimidate them!

I read all the comments, but all I can see and hear is a young woman on the ground in a deserted area with shouts, laughter, and jeers aimed at her while she desperately begs them to stop. The pain, the fear she experienced is just fucking daunting. I can't imagine that level of terror, of not knowing when it would end, of not knowing if she would burn to death, and then to be re-victimized with the distribution of her taped torture, and then AGAIN with the 'court of law' inflicting its pathetic punishment that apparently is even less than some pothead would get for some goddam weed!

I am sorry, call me whatever, but they do not deserve to be in society (seriously, how old must you be to have had values or the basic lessons of right vs. wrong instilled in you?), nor to participate in a treatment method that will leave them COMPLACENT about their actions. Why am I reading so many comments that insinuate that they are too young to know any better? That they need to be protected from thugs? They are monsters! Psycopaths who relished in the pain and terror of another human being!

/end rant.must cool off.

It's cases like these that make me an advocate for the death penalty in certain cases. May therapy work? I suppose. But I say lock them up indefinitely until a panel decides that they're safe to be released into society again, and if that's never that's just too bad. The only reason I'm not saying kill them is because they're juveniles. They obviously knew what they did, and the planet would be better off sans these psychos.

Prison in solitary confinement and therapy. Seriously, no contact with anyone but their therapist so they don't receive negative influences. That these people can breath free air is a travesty of justice.

@those who suggested the "mercy killing" of these rabid boys (some small part of me says, "What if your little brother did this? Wouldn't you want him, however biased you were, to be shown an OUNCE of mercy?")

I doubt it. Can someone like this, someone so sadistic, be "happy"? Or happy in a way that didn't mean gratifying oneself horribly at the expense of someone else?

If they are found guilty of this crime (nice job, fuckfaces, taping yourselves)...some not-insubstantial part of me says, "Fuck them, fuck their families for unleashing these psychotic kids on society, "rabid dogs" indeed.

They tortured this girl---they should consider a quick painless death a blessing they don't deserve.

Motherfucker, what a truly awful world. I want to know where their parents were while they were doing this shit.

Nobody is saying that these rapists should be protected from thugs, Jem. What they're saying is that they shouldn't be provided with like-minded thug teachers and peers.

Lots of people here are advocating the death penalty. I would say the harshest punishment we should ever give male rapists who do not also kill their victims is castration. And not just chemical castration. Make it so they can't stop taking pills and function comes back-- permanent, physical castration (but not for everyone, just that that should be the worst punishment available). Then add other therapy and incarceration.

Think about it-- they used it as a weapon, so you make them weaponless. They aren't disfigured, they just can never get an erection and have testosterone deficiency. For many of this kind of man, such total emasculation would be far worse than the death penalty, and that risk would seriously deter them

*@xxhelenaxx Jesus, incoherent rant:

All BUT hold down their fucking kids' victims etc. etc. ....

Sigh.

Castration will do no good because they'd still have their sick, demented BRAINS. Yeah, castration removes ONE weapon but they still have hands with which to hold knives, etc. Their brains would still be functional. They'd still be violent fuckers who'd just find another way to torture.

This is pretty gross, and I'm pretty sure that if this happened stateside, they would have gone to a juvenile detention facility.

The real issue here is not that they are doing sexual therapy, but that they aren't doing it while incarcerated, when it is most effective (because it becomes a issue of necessity for those who want parole).

Part of the justice system in America requires that all sexual offenders found guilty, even at a juvenile level have a combination of both.

As someone who has been to sexual therapy for men (not for a reason like this raucous circus, but that's another story), it's pretty intense. Even when people are taking it for reasons that aren't criminal, and my understanding is that the criminal ones are even worse.

I hope that whoever is running these kids rehab program puts them through hell, so that when they come out they never do this again.

Oh, and for those who think that they will do this again if chemically castrated, sexual offenders who go through chemical castration don't usually repeat offenses, because they no longer get sexual pleasure out of it (or anything, for that matter).

"Castration will do no good because they'd still have their sick, demented BRAINS."
Ok how about full frontal lobotomy?

@Sojourner: IMO, a lobotomy is a *worse* fate than a clean death, and just changes the subject into an eternal drain on society. What's really the moral difference between simply killing them, and killing their higher thought processes? Maybe it's just me, but I don't see one. In a way, the idea of a forced lobotomy scares me *more*...if it's easier for people to justify, morally, than outright killing...*shudder*

@Basiorana...your punishment (chemical castration) is poetic, very much an eye for an eye. But it's also, by nature, temporary...and avoidable. Stop showing up to take the drugs, beat town, assume new identity, rape more women. Moreover, it's just not as *viceral* a threat to new potential offenders.

I thought maybe a night's rest would change my view on this subject. But I don't think it has. I don't want violent rapists of this nature in my society. Period. I guess that means taxpayers paying for life in prison or taxpayers paying even more for the repeated appeals of a death penalty. Stupid real world. I suppose it could be argued the death penalty, or even life in prison, would be "cruel and unusual punishment" for a violent rapist who did not kill their victim. But to me, that way devalues the impact of rape...just demonstrates that our society doesn't see it as significant as it should.

I don't think these sadists need to protected from the thugs in juvi - the kids in juvi need to be protected from them!

I'd only be onboard w/ therapy as a "punishment" if it involved *years and years of being locked in a mental institution*. Even then, who knows if they'll ever be fixed enough to go back in society? But, it doesn't even matter, because the maximum punishment they could have received is only *3 years of juvi*, and all they got was *9 months of therapy*. People talk about how everyone hates rapists, how it's a crime up there with murder, but courts and juries act like it's about as bad as selling some pot, and no one seems to care. And then they wonder why we still need feminism. People are idiots.

I agree that this supposed "punishment" is absurd, insulting, misogynist. But I disagree with most of the comments here.

I'll break down how and why.

1) I'm opposed to the death penalty. Period. And not because I don't think anybody deserves death. I do. But a) in practice, the death penalty, at least in the US, is always a vehicle for racism. I believe that in the entire history of the death penalty, no white person has ever been executed for murdering a black person. b) I want a government to run on higher philosophical principles than my anger and desire for revenge. Justice is unattainable, but I don't want to settle for revenge, either. c) Nobody deserves to be turned into a killer. I have a friend whose father used to have the job of overseeing executions, and every time he did, he came home early and spent the afternoon in the bathroom throwing up. That's anecdotal. But philosphically, I do not want to see a group of people paid by the government for killing someone who has been rendered harmless by restraints. I think that nobody deserves to have to be a killer--it plays havoc with human morality, and I'm even more wary of those people who would have no problem doing it in cold blood.

2) I don't think juveniles should be tried or sentenced as adults. Again, I have various reasons for this. For one thing, there are physiological changes that take place during adolescence that have to do with impulse control and executive decision-making. For another, people under 18 are not accorded full legal rights, so I don't see why they should be forced to take on full legal responsibilities. I find it highly unlikely that the same rules and procedures that work with adult criminals will work with child and adolescent criminals--there's no other situation in which we treat those two age groups the same. Finally, putting child and adolescent offenders in with adults is guaranteeing their rape and sexual abuse. And I hold firmly that nobody deserves rape. Rape is never OK. Nobody has ever done anything bad enough that rape is an acceptable punishment. That is cruel and unusual, and in my mind is one of the things distinguishing sadistic criminals from what a justice system should be.

I do think that these violent scumbag assholes should be removed from their community, removed from each other, and imprisoned (not with adults) for a very long time, with release contingent upon therapeutic progress.

Let me add that I'm not trying to convince anybody else to agree with me or my arguments. I'm just laying them out for the sake of interest.

@EG: You're not totally alone on the prison rape thing...in the end, while there is no more twisted poetic justice (that's right, mofo, take a dose of your own fucking medicine and then some), it serves no one, esp. if a sex offender released from jail after 25 years, his antisocial behaviors now re-stoked (and likely he will be unemployed and isolated/angry), it does no good.

I'm ashamed to say I might feel less obligation to be "objective" or "rational" if I or someone I personally cared for knew the indignity of sexual assault, esp. in a crime like this.

Ultimately it pisses me off to think that a drug dealer or someone who shoots a grocery store owner gets to make a child molester his bitch b/c 1) plenty of sex offenders are generally career criminals and 2) neither is exactly a saint, right? Why does one asshole get to bully another?

I am all for incapacitating sex offenders through custody (and keeping them from raping each other, then giving their sexual partners HIV when they get out...) but castration is similar to de-clawing a wild animal. Do both.

They might still be sadistic and antisocial, but those two horrible have an outlet through testosterone-fueled dick-as-weapon sexual aggression.

Considering where the ACLU stands on this...sometimes I truly am repulsed by it, even if I'm overall incredibly grateful it exists.

I saw traffic on another forum based in Australia that says this girl committed suicide yesterday. Can anyone confirm or dispose of that? I don't want to repeat it anywhere if it isn't true, and I haven't seen anything that confirms this.

What makes you guys even think these guys are salvageable? I mean, ahve they expressed any genuine remorse? Have their parents? Why waste therapy on amoral little shits who'll just spin their wheels till they're released?

Rapists blame their victims. Encouraging them to think they're victims isn't going to help their next victim. Where's the therapy for their victim?

And it looks like remorse is out of the question, too:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21811,20646020-2862,00.html

EG, I understand what you're saying, but some crimes propel minors into the adult arena. The prolonged torture of this young woman, is one of those cases in my opinion. It's not like they stole from a store, or beat someone up for cash, or sold drugs. Eleven people brutally raped this young woman, urinated on her, and set her onfire, all while being taped, and I assume taunting and cursing her. Then they distributed their tape. They derived a very specific pleasure not only from the first torturous acts, but from immortalizing her torture and humiliation. I don't care what physiological changes are happening to affect judgement. It's not enough to calm me, but I do believe in hell. And I believe that whatever is not paid for here on earth, is paid for threefold in the next life. I want them punished now, publicly, humiliatingly. But since I'll probably never get that, I'll continue to work to make sure that these acts are punished in the future, that rape is taken seriously, that women are taken seriously and valued as people, and I'll have to take some very small solace in knowing in my heart of hearts, that they have an eternity of pain coming. I know plenty of people think that's ridiculous, but it's something that I have to cling to, otherwise, I couldn't go on existing in this world.

I understand that view, kmp, about some acts making their perpetrators deserve to be treated as adults. It's just one that I disagree with. I certainly agree with your conviction to work to make sure that these acts are punished in the future, that rape is taken seriously, and that women are taken seriously and valued as people.

Having read all the comments, some random thoughts:

#1: Wow, it's almost like rape isn't even illegal anymore.

#2: Funny how torches and pitchforks can suddenly seem like a viable solution.

#3: If every woman who was raped committed suicide, and every woman whose son committed rape did the same...how many women would actually be left in the world?

Maybe a hugely unbalanced male-to-female ratio would deter rapists from raping? Then again, they'd probably just use that as an excuse to lock up all the surviving women (somewhere away from sharp objects) and continue raping them with impunity. Yay patriarchy.

Damn. That was a really dark train of thought, wasn't it? I'd better go look at some pictures of kittens, or something...

Having read all the comments, some random thoughts:

#1: Wow, it's almost like rape isn't even illegal anymore.

#2: Funny how torches and pitchforks can suddenly seem like a viable solution.

#3: If every woman who was raped committed suicide, and every woman whose son committed rape did the same...how many women would actually be left in the world?

Maybe a hugely unbalanced male-to-female ratio would deter rapists from raping? Then again, they'd probably just use that as an excuse to lock up all the surviving women (somewhere away from sharp objects) and continue raping them with impunity. Yay patriarchy.

Damn. That was a really dark train of thought, wasn't it? I'd better go look at some pictures of kittens, or something...

@ginmar: My...god. Thank you for that link.

I'm sorry...there's no such thing as rehabilitation of *that*. I mean sure, maybe in the past year since they've learned to say all the right things and pretend to have remorse, in order to reduce their sentence.

I can't decide whether I'm more horrified that we exist in a society that can produce a large group of people who think and act like that...or that we exist in a society that coddles and makes apologies for them.

My comments are slightly off the radar on this subject, but how did 11 sick and twisted young men end up friends and find this young girl and torture her? I saw the video but don't remember it. Is it at all possible that there were ringleaders and other spineless douchebags without the balls to say no and defend this poor girl? How is it that there wasn't one single soul in this group of 11 people? Furthermore, isn't this girl mentally challenged? Doesn't that have any bearing on the punishment? I guess my point here is something is very fishy about this whole thing. yes I do believe these boys deserve all the punishments listed here and worse. My question is how did this happen in broad day light? Where were the people responsible for this girl?

I would also like to touch on the fact someone mentioned that marijuana is taken more seriously than rape. If there was speculation that these boys had been under the influence, that might have gotten lesser sentences in the rape charge but greater sentences for drug usage. how pathetic.

They're assholes. That link is horrifying. But I find myself pathetically comforted by the fact that it sounds like all the classmates the reporter interviewed are horrified, digusted, and feel contact shame.

The father of the victim says the "family is happy" with the outcome of the case. Supposedly, they asked that the prosecutors not seek any stiffer penalties. She is mentally challenged (again, allegedly) and they didn't want her to have to testify before the court.

http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/article/2007/11/08/8693_news.html

Nick: I actually suggested physical castration. Complete surgical removal of the testes and replacement with a prosthetic.

EG: "release contingent upon therapeutic progress"-- I really don't know why we don't do this for more crimes. Pedophilia and rape especially. I say, don't release 'em until they're determined to be safe, whatever the original sentence was.

While it would probably be heart wrenching for the victim to testify, her parents really should have demanded the harshest punishment. How can the father just say that she is "fine"?

Then again, I'm the kind of mom that would kill a motherfucker for less....

@Basiorana: Mea culpa. Upon reread, you were indeed discussing actual castration. Which is definitely a possible compromise position that I could be talked over to.

Still, there's the problem inherent in the violent, sociopathic behavior they demonstrated...can that really be entirely blamed on their testosterone and sex drives?

@Caitlain: I can't decide how to feel about that article..."turn the other cheek" only really works for the patriarchy, for the people with the power. If you're the underdog (women's rights), turning the other cheek isn't the most...constructive response. IMO, at least. The best social strides forward seem to be accompanied by people getting *angry* (not necessarily violent), by people getting *involved*. Still, it is probably the best way for his family, those directly affected, to recover and move on with their lives...rather than carry the hatred themselves. Let others carry it for them...

Nick: I never said they shouldn't ALSO get lots of therapy and incarceration. You couldn't just castrate a guy and let him go.

@Basiorana: You're right again, of course. So full physical castration as a "punishment"/discouragement to future offenders, and lots of therapy/incarceration as a means to reintegrate them with society? I might be able to get behind that, and it doesn't create all the cognitive dissonance that the death penalty does. Though I'm sure the ACLU would have issues with its "cruel and unusual" nature. But that's the ACLU's problem with not giving appropriate weight to the crime of rape, not mine.

Though I must say, "You couldn't just castrate a guy and let him go" is an extremely quotable phrase.

Maybe the ACLU would disagree, but I don't think it's so cruel and unusual. The penis is still functional; if it was done correctly he'd still even look completely normal. He would be, essentially, asexual, which is unusual but hardly cruel considering he is being punished for a crime.

"Their crime is obviously terrible, but making an effort to rehabilitate them is more likely to improve their behavior than sticking them in a cell with a bunch of thugs."

Oh my God, you're actually serious. Let's look at the linguistic implications of this, SHALL we. Raped a girl? Check. Filmed it? Check. Pissed on her? Check. Set her on fire? Check.

But we should not put them in prison WITH thugs. Implication: They are not thugs. Nobody here's denying they did all those horrible things, but THEY are not thugs.

...WHAAAT?

And so what if locking rabid animals in cages is "the American thing to do"? It should be *everybody's* thing to do, when something like this occurs.

I have a daughter and knowing that she shares a world with people who do not believe rapists who piss on women and set them on fire are thugs scares me even more than sharing a world with rapists who piss on women and set them on fire. Seriously.

The details are horrific, but it is worth to remember that compared with other countries, American legal system is ridiculously punitive, and the way our system reclassifies juveniles to be adult is ridiculous too. And tragic.

It is a bit hard to judge the detail of the case you are discussing. Someone have mentioned that Australian law makes distinction based on penetration happening or not, and perhaps it did not. Burning hair can be painless. It kind of sounds "without lasting psychological damage or injury", which is the way waterboarding is defended.

There is also a defence with some merit of participating in mass violence without much of individual will. The actions were extremally disgusting, but perhaps they did not reflect deep depravity of the indiduals but rather a kind of mass hysteria. In a rational system of trying juveniles, it is less the matter of defence and prosecution but a council of psychologists.

Now, if you feel like commiting a crime with almost assured impunity, I would suggest vehicular manslaughter. And if you choose a bicyclist or a pedestrian, it is even not risky.

After reading the story & the comments, I'm feeling quite ill & I keep having these odd flashbacks to Glenn Ridge, New Jersey 1989.

http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/6990.html