Wow, that is just crazy...and another reason especially not to drive in heels, not that you really can anyway.

Yep - there really isn't a good way to do anything in heels - unless you're lying down. ;)

I just googled "high heels" and "workplace" - looks like a lot of women in a lot of workplaces wear them - why?

My advice to other women, like myself, who love heels-- always make sure you have alternate shoes on hand, and in an emergency, take them off. Cut feet can heal.

High heels are fun and pretty, but tragic stories like this only remind me that there are times when heels are a very bad thing.

"I just googled "high heels" and "workplace" - looks like a lot of women in a lot of workplaces wear them - why?"

Unfortunately, to be "professional" and "attractive" at the same time, heels are the fashion. Also, for some ridiculous reason, women's skirt suits are expected to be worn with heels, but also the pant-suits are tailored to be so long that heels are required without getting each pair of pants hemmed. Admittedly, they do look nice, and make the wearer's legs look longer and leaner, but the discomfort and awkwardness is still a problem.
Sometimes I'm reminded of those old-fashioned pictures of women from the fifties wearing pumps to vacuum their house or cook dinner. Somehow, women's work has been equated with wearing heels, as if woman who works can't be feminine, or isn't a "lady" or something, without them.

'Function-first' still seems to be an almost purposefully neglected concept when looking at the fashions foisted upon women. I hope I live to see heels go the way of foot binding.

I tried, in my mid-20s, to wear heels because of "fashion", but I gave it up. I work in the coporate world and only occasionaly wear a very low heeled shoe. Otherwise it's flats everyday. And I don't think anyone at work sees me as less "professional" and I certainly don't care if they think I'm attractive.

I'll hem pants before I hurt my feet (and possibly endanger myself) by wearing high heels.

When it comes to fashion, I'm a follower. I pluck, I shave, I wear heels. I do these things because I like to put forth an image that will be well perceived by the world, and it's also a great way to get ahead in the work place. And yet, I cannot wait for a day that flats are considered as attractive and professional as heels, I hate wearing the things. When going to work, I always wear a pair of tennis shoes during the commute and stick the heels on for the office.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but I've always been under the impression that feminism is about letting women make their own choices without judgment either way. So why would a feminist website use "scare tactic" language with regard to heels?

I'm a feminist. And I will not leave the house in flats (the gym excepted). I've been wearing heels since the 5th grade and they don't hurt or hinder my movement in any way. It is a personal choice.

I think that these sorts of points are what make young women feel alienated from feminism. It is possible to be a fashionable feminist.

So why would a feminist website use "scare tactic" language with regard to heels?
"Quick Hit: Another reason to re-think heels" is using scare-tactics?

"This is some horrible stuff:" is talking about two women smashed to death by a train because of the shoes they were wearing.

So, lobbyart - what part of that post had anything telling any woman what to do or what to wear?

Someone tells me to re-think bungee jumping because I might be smashed at the bottom of a bridge. Well I take that into consideration - and no one is telling me what to do.

Wear your heels, I'll wear mine, and you know, protest something that needs protesting instead of wasting your whine on this innocuous post.

I used to wear heels all the time. Then, after doing lindy-hop for a year (a style of dance that basically requires flat shoes) and working retail for four months, I realized that heels just weren't for me. They HURT, unless you wear them regularly, they throw off my balance, and they alter my posture in a way that isn't comfortable. I now own a pair of black pumps in the event I ever need to attend an business-type event, and a pair of black heeled winter boots for the same reason (thanks, Canada weather!). Any other time, I wear flats, and exclusively flats.

Lobbyart- "Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but I've always been under the impression that feminism is about letting women make their own choices without judgment either way."

I think that's true. But there wasn't judgement in this post. There was an observation that a shoe that is worn on a regular basis mostly by women caused their deaths. It's horrible, and probably a reason not to wear heels. But that's not a mandate not to.

Where I think feminists have a problem is in comments like this: "I do these things because I like to put forth an image that will be well perceived by the world, and it's also a great way to get ahead in the work place." (Destra.)

Feminists want to "get ahead in the world" because of whats in their heads, not whats on their feet.

In response to wearing high heels at work: Most businesses these days accept dress flats as an alternative. Flats and low heels are coming back into style, I see them everywhere these days. Most women will say they wear heels to work because they chose to, for fashion or because they like the look, not because they feel pressured somehow.

Wow, I feel so sorry for the poster who has been wearing heels since 5th grade. That is just so sad. Why on earth would a 5th grader be wearing heels? Very sad.

As for being a fashionable feminist, what does that even mean? And why are high heels fashionable?

Buggle - if the 5th grader likes the shoes - why shouldn't she wear them if she wants to? It's not your choice, but then again - it's not about you, and isn't that...sad.

I'm sorry but I'm with Lobbyart. The CBC News piece is just bad "shock, horror" journalism, and "rethink wearing heels" because two women died in an awful accident and it "appeared" they were having a hard time getting a way because of their shoes?

By all means wear whatever shoes you like, but please don't try to scare women into wearing flats via tragic stories. If a feminist website puts up a post about how two women died because they were wearing heels, it's obvious some sort of judgment is being passed or some lesson is being taught. A train caused their deaths, not their shoes. I can think of a lot of "feminist-approved" things they could have been wearing that could have caused their deaths.

I LOVE the look of heels and hate painful feet so I do wear them, but very rarely. Never wear them while driving or flying or if you know you will have to do a lot of walking. The first 2 can kill you and the third will make you wish you were dead.

Mkay Minerva, nice snark there. You don't see a problem with a 5th grader wearing heels?

High heel posts seem to bring out an interesting group of heel-wearing defenders. Sigh.

I agree that we certainly can't be blaming these women for wearing heels, or trying to scare people into not wearing heels.

However, I don't think it's bad to judge high heels. They are bad for us, marketed towards us, and they hurt us. So whatever, I'll judge high heels as much as I want. I'm not judging women's choices- we all struggle under the patriarchy.

Attaching the phrase "re-think heels" to an article about women getting their shoes stuck implies a causal relationship between the women's choice in footwear and their deaths.

Secondly, buggle, up to 4 inches (for regular wear), there is no difference what shoes you wear because even "flats" have an incline that will throw off your posture. If they hurt, don't wear them. I find them far more comfortable than flats, so I choose to wear them. I'm not under any "patriarchy" in my choice.

I'm also curious as to how wearing heels while driving will kill you... that's a new one.

"Struggle under the patriarchy" because of the shoes I wear?

Here we go again with that "I accept you even though you're less of a feminist than I am" rhetoric.

I never wear heels. They're, um, not comfortable. I would never take away one's right to wear heels, but I do believe that they belong in the same vein as waxing/shaving, thinness, makeup, and hair color/style, as things that women have to do to make themselves feel more attractive or acceptable to society that are not required by men. It's just another way to control women's bodies.
And yes, I know, men CAN do some of these things too. They're generally not required/expected to do them.
I'm an office manager for a small business, so I don't have to do any of those things, and believe it or not, I look professional every day. I stay well-groomed, but not "feminine."

And I don't think anyone is saying you're less of a feminist for wearing high heels. Feminism is about choice. Just because someone personally thinks heels are a tool of the patriarchy, doesn't mean that everyone has to think that or that anyone should stop wearing them. That's the beauty of feminism. Stimulating conversation about something that is required of women but not by men is a valid debate for a feminist website, and I think it is important to hear both sides of the argument.
(It always makes me nervous when people argue. Sorry.)

You know, I used to get knee-jerk defensive when issues such as makeup and high heels came up. But then I took the opportunity to ask myself why I wear shoes that are known to cause foot and back problems, particularly seeing as there is a history of back problems in my family. And I really never came up with a good answer other than: "Society tells me I need to wear them to be attractive and feminine." I still wear them, because erasing all that conditioning is really, really hard, but I no longer get defensive when the topic comes up.

So, lobbyart and Missmay... you wear high heeled shoes because you like them, but why do you like them? And why do you like them enough to risk foot and back problems?

(Oh, and as for heels being more comfortable than flats... sometimes they are. But that's because women's shoes are not made with an eye for comfort. High heels may be more comfortable than flimsy ballet flats, but they're just flat out not more comfortable than well fitting sneakers. And if they feel that way to you, that may be because years of wearing high heels have shortened your calf muscles.)

Was I the only one who got a mental image of the Slasher Movie Victim running in her heels and falling? Or do I just have a morbid sense of humor?

For me, heels are kind of like leather lingerie--there's no real point to wearing them if they're not coming off soon. I love the way heels look, especially four inches or so, but I don't expect myself to walk in those things. Most of the time I wear tennis shoes. I had some steel-toed workboots that I wore all the time a while back--comfortable as hell, but not exactly fashionable. I ended up having to get rid of them.

under_zenith: I know I wear high heels because I think they make my legs and butt look firmer, which makes me feel more confident. Also, they make me very tall (almost six feet) so I can look people in the eyes or look down at them, giving me a feeling of control over the situation.

And the idea that women have to have artificially firm legs and butts in order to feel confident and attractive is one of the things feminists are fighting against.

Mkay Minerva, nice snark there. You don't see a problem with a 5th grader wearing heels? High heel posts seem to bring out an interesting group of heel-wearing defenders. Sigh.

Oh please. I can't be snarky but you can be patronizing enough to earn my snark. I see.

My point - is that women can wear whateverthehell kind of shoes they want to, or not. It's not up to you or anyone else to pat them on the head and tell them how sorry you feel for them. The adult woman who wrote the original comment was talking about her own experience in the 5th grade. Who are you or any of us to tell her she can't make her own decisions, or judge her based on her childhood that was different from yours?

I wear heels very rarely, and most of the time enjoy the comfort of my Keens, even though I get comments from other women about how "homely" they are.

Whatever.

It's not up to them, or you, to decide how good a feminist I or anyone else is.

You can spend more useful energy worrying about your own issues, and while you're at it you can consider why you feel the need to appoint yourself the Decider-guy of Feminism. Give me a break.

Was I the only one who got a mental image of the Slasher Movie Victim running in her heels and falling?

No. No, you weren't. I have learned many important survival tips from horror movies. Wear shoes you can run in. Keep a baseball bat within easy reach of your bed. Don't waste time wringing your hands and saying "this can't be happening!" And most importantly, get the hell out of that house.

So let me get this straight-- I'm not allowed to gain confidence from my appearance? I put it on the same level as a man who feels more confident facing an audience in a suit rather than sweat pants.

If I want to wear a vinyl catsuit every day of my life because that makes me feel sexy and confident, I should have a right to. I have as much right to derive confidence from my physical appearance as I have to derive it from my opinions.

And one of the most important: splitting up is never a good idea.

Wowza. Listen, I wear heels so I'm certainly not going to be heaping any judgment on anyone for what they wear. But let's not pretend that heels don't impede our ability to move fast, run, etc. So I don't really think that suggesting we think on heels because they ARE potentially dangerous is all controversial.

For goodness sake Basiorana, nobody is going to stop you from wearing heels or a vinyl catsuit (but isn't it interesting that so many women wear heels but so few wear vinyl catsuits? It couldn't possibly have anything to do with social pressure to wear one but not the other, could it?) But it's messed up that beauty standards for women are such that they are not achievable for most women without those women having to wear shoes that make it more difficult to walk and cause damage to the feet, legs, and back in the long term. In an ideal world, we would all feel confident and attractive with the legs and butts we have naturally.

High heels are no better than bound feet, IMO. They seek to restrict the movements and cause lifelong pain and discomfort to the female sex. However, that's something other women have to decide for themselves and I've never lectured another woman about footwear.

And I guess I'm just lucky (or unambitious) but I've never felt judged for wearing flats to work. I mean, they're pretty and they go with my clothes, and I very much doubt anyone's ever thought to themselves "Huh, she never wears heels, let's not give her a raise this year".

Regardless of what each person commenting, or even the girls in the article, were wearing, the choice remains theirs. However, that's not the point. Suppose they'd been wearing flats with little traction and the rocks were wet? Would people comment on their shoe choice?

As a poster stated above, there would have been a way to get out of the situation, even if it caused temporary damage. One that everyone screams at the screen in the stupid horror movies. TAKE THE DAMNED SHOES OFF! Kick them off and run out of the path of the train! I'm sorry they died, it's a tragedy and waste of life. Now let's look at society and how it doesn't seem to pass on any nuggets of common sense to people.

Uh-oh, I knew this was coming - a post about high heels! And I had the feeling that most feminists consider them to be footwear imposed by the patriarchy to make us more helpless, as it were.

As implied by my username, I am a stiletto freak. I love my high heels! And they look great! And they hurt like hell! LOL... But, as I always say to people who ask about that part - I am a bit of a masochist, so it all works out well. :)

Seriously tho, I only wear my heels at the office and when I go out for some fancy dining or something, and at lunch time when I have to run errands, I put on my flats. I mean, I love my heels, but I'm not *stupid*. I've always maintained that even if you love heels, you must show your feet some respect and not torture them constantly. I want to be able to wear lovely high heels well into my golden years, and that means not crippling myself with heels while I'm still young.

But about those people who died - that's terrible indeed. Terrible things just happen though, and it might have still happened whether they were wearing heels or not. News stories like this one don't always give you every single little fact or detail in order to paint the kind of picture they want you to see.

Why is it the heels that killed them? Why was the train so close to them that they couldn't get away from the car? I think more information is needed about the accident before their choice of footwear is blamed. Did the train crossing not have a signal light or gates? If it did, were they not functioning or did the girls choose to ignore it? I remember learning early on that if your car stalls on a train track leave it immediately. If you follow that line of common sense, shouldn't you have enough time to get away from the car? We've had a few fatal car/person and train accidents around where I live and most of them have been because the person in the car tried to beat the train or things like that.

the idea that women have to have artificially firm legs and butts in order to feel confident and attractive is one of the things feminists are fighting against.

Exactly. Why don't men wear shoes that elongate their legs & make their butts look firmer?
Hey, I like wearing heels on occassion too but I don't kid myself about the fact that in our society, women with long legs & firm butts are more valued than women without those qualities.
And I only feel better about myself when I wear heels because the world gives me more positive attention when I *look good*. Not because heels are a natural mood elevator.

I'm with mjane, I need more info. See, I find it hard to believe that the women were killed as a direct result of their sentimental attachment to their heels. I can, however, visualize heels and the entire foot getting caught under a rail/wooden piece that prevented them from even taking off their shoes. That makes a huge difference.

On high heels in general, I detest them on myself. They cause me so much pain that I don't bother with them. That simple. I admire women who can walk in them without wobbling, because that is one hell of a feat, but comments like "I want to be treated more professionally" or "put forth an image that will be well perceived..." really piss me off. So, because I wear flats I am not professional? My level and success of productivity is made moot because I don't wear heels? The world thinks of me less because of that? Wear 'em if you like them and if you can stand them (and stand in them), don't support that line of thinking though - that pigeon-holes women into a standard that is sexist. What do you think of women who don't wear high heels ever, then? Let me guess, we are not feminine...

And I am sorry, I think it is messed up that a 5th grader wore heels. She can wear whatever the hell she wants now as an adult, but heels at what? 10? 11?

No. No, you weren't. I have learned many important survival tips from horror movies. Wear shoes you can run in. Keep a baseball bat within easy reach of your bed. Don't waste time wringing your hands and saying "this can't be happening!" And most importantly, get the hell out of that house.

slight thread jack but what I learned from horror movies was to never go camping, or go to abandoned houses/factories/what have you, especially with a group of mostly white people, and if I needed to there should be at least one other black person besides me who could possibly die first;).

Back to thread.

My take on shoes typically is always this: can I take off running if I need to? That usually also prevents me from wearing most sandals, unless it's at the beach or something. If I'm walking to my car to go out and it's for a formal thing, then I will wear heels, however, I take an extra pair of shoes for driving in the car and I try to make sure that wherever I'm going I'm going to sit down, so that I can take the high heels off (usually under the table or something) and then put them on when it's time to walk back to the car:) If it's a party or something then I'll walk around a bit and later sit down where I can discretely take off the heels to rest my feet.

I broke this rule recently, when I was at the Halloween block party in West Hollywood, and I ended up running up and down a half mile street in high heels and the next morning it literally hurt to walk. For three days afterwards. I shall never break my rule again.

By the way, am I the only one on here who can run in high heels? I see a lot of people saying "they impede movement" but back when I first got a pair of 3 inch heels the first thing I did was teach myself how to run in them without hurting myself.

I'm with Jem, I think there might be more to this than the article is letting on.

And I don't know of many people who consider high heels to be more professional. More attractive, maybe, but low heels, flats, or sneakers are pretty common on professional women these days, especially in jobs that require a lot of walking and standing.

But if a woman wears high heels, you shouldn't assume she's being oppressed by the patriarchy or something. Some of us just genuinely like the way high heels look.

And most guys prefer taller women to be in flats anyway because they like to feel tall, so we're not just doing it for them.

And most guys prefer taller women to be in flats anyway because they like to feel tall, so we're not just doing it for them.

How, exactly, is that NOT doing it to please men?

I am all about personal choice when it comes to fashion. I think it is very important to be aware of how fashion can be patriarchal, but also equally important to be aware of how shaming those for wearing what is available and culturally considered beautiful is yet another act of woman-hating and misogyny.

Ok that said, personally I hate high heals. I think they make their wearers look like hoofed animals. I can't help but imagine antelope. But that's totally just me.

Does anyone else have an issue with reducing feminism to just having a choice? Because I thought feminism was about equality... Can I choose to be equal yet?

Absolutely, MirandaJay.

The "I thought feminism was about choice!?" crowd doesn't want the hassle of examining culture or patriarchy or politics...

They just want to go on living their unexamined lives.

I should have included not wanting to examine or reflect upon the forces that influence *choices* or the consequences of said choices.

I agree with Marissa. While I personally rarely wear high heels, I think that to judge people who do is not my place. I really do think that if I were to make a big stink over someone's decision to wear heels, I'd be making feminism look trivial. I think that when feminists pass this kind of judgment, it turns off would-be feminists who happen to like certain styles.I just feel like there are more important issues feminism should tackle.

Meggers, I don't judge people who wear high heels. I judge people who refuse to examine their actions/attitudes & deny the role society/politics plays in so-called personal decisions. You know, "the personal is political."

UltraMagnus-- if I wear heels that make me six feet tall despite the fact that men dislike my being taller than them, clearly I am not doing it to please them, but rather to please myself.

And while some people's brands of feminism may not be about choice, I find that idea unfortunate. To want freedom is a beautiful thing, but if you do not make feminism about choice, you are merely attempting to control the world in a different way, and you are really no better than your predecessors.

Yes, we should look at what the reasons are behind our choices. But then we should be able to choose anyway. If I chose to wear high heels despite knowing that they were invented by men, that men find them appealing, that they are designed to make my butt look better and are sexualizing me, then I should be allowed to do so unrestricted by others. It's the same as how a woman who knows all about feminism and traditional gender roles and their inherent problems should not be judged if she choses to stop working and focus on raising her children and contributing to her community.

The religious right wants to dictate how we live our lives, and I had hoped the left, with talk of rights for homosexuals and reproductive freedom and the right or a woman to choose to terminate a pregnancy, was different.

the argument for heels being cool because of work issues reeks of a middle class based analysis that just isnt pertanent to my life.
im going to keep wearing shoes that allow me to do heavy lifting, run, jump and get payed close to minimum wage the entire time.
yeah i suppose no critique of high-heels would make feminism more accessable to middle class girls and women. but isnt the invisibility and thus exclusion of everyone else except for this group of women something that feminists have been working to eradicate since before the third wave was declared?

Come on guys, it's not cool to criticize anything that women do. I personally diet all the time and excersice 5 hours a day to be Healthy. I wear 4 inch heels to make myself artificially tall (because height is associated with men, and therefore better than being short). I also spend 1 hour everyday styling my hair and putting on makeup, because it makes me feel Confident (because a women's confidence is associated with her looks, you see). Last year, I had a boob job because I wanted to (society's pressure had nothing to do with it). I wear long nails that I have trouble typing in, because they're cute, I just like them (again, society's pressure has nothing to do with it!) I dye my hair blonde because it makes me feel sexy, I'm doing it for ME, honest!

We all make our deals with the patriarchy to survive. Sure, I can sit here and feel superior because I wear loafers every day and just have my pants hemmed, wear no makeup, and put my hair in a ponytail instead of spending money on hair products. Does that make me better than other feminists? If I put my cards on the table, I intentionally wear fitted shirts and sweaters and sometimes push-up bras because I know my breasts look good in them. If I were graying at 25 like my sister, I might be dyeing my hair. I don't always speak up about the atrocities for those working in the mines when someone in the office starts talking about hoping to get engaged and what kind of diamond she wants. We're human, and we do what feels good and comfortable to us. We do judge our sisters for making different choices even though we know that as feminists someone's shoes are really no worse than another's lipstick, but we're really all just doing our best to get by.

Well, I don't see what's unfortunate about wondering if certain choices women make are actually productive ones that move forward to the ultimate goal of equality.

Aren't all the comments about maintaining one's appearance implying that women who do choose to enjoy fashion are somehow less than you are? That you're more in the know? So much for equality.

Who are you to judge? I can run in heels, I love the way I walk in them, and after 14 years I have no back or foot problems as a result. If you do, then you deal with it, but don't make sweeping universal statements about a subject on which you are not an expert.

Discounting how another woman says she feels is just as manipulative and controlling as the religious right trying to get MRS degrees back in colleges. It's patronizing because you're saying that you know better and a woman only feels good about her choice because she's ignorant.

If someone enjoys putting effort into her appearance and you're the one mocking her, then isn't it your problem, not hers? Your discomfort with my choice to wear a miniskirt or designer jeans or stilettos won't achieve anything besides affecting your mood.

Blaming some amorphous patriarchy for "imposing" values on society is overly simplistic and unrealistic. Fashion is a pervasive business and you buy into it in one way or another, even if it's simply an act of "rebellion." I just happen to enjoy myself in the process.

Oh good lord. This just makes me laugh. I swear, every time there is a post about heels, the heel defenders come out of the woodwork! It's so odd.

Feminism is not about the right for 5th grade girls to "choose" to wear high heels. Like mirandajay said, it's about equality. It's not about "women doing whatever the fuck they want and nobody better say anything about my decision."

And no one is mocking anyone. No one is judging women for wearing heels. It seems like there is a lot of defensiveness going on here. I'm not saying heel-wearing is really that important either (in terms of feminist issues). (although I agree it's essentially foot-binding)

Denying the existence of patriarchy? That's like saying we don't live in a capitalist society. Trying to say you only wear heels/makeup/shave your legs for "YOU" is just not true. I think it'd be worth looking at why you are so defensive. Not saying this to any particular poster, just everyone who is all upset about anyone saying anything bad about high heels. What are you really so upset about? I'm not judging you, I don't care if you wear heels, or whatever. I care that you refuse to look at your choices and how they have been influenced by living in a violently anti-woman society. That's all.

And when I say I feel sad for that 5th grader, I really feel sad. I feel sad that any child would think that wearing heels or makeup or anything like that, is necessary. I feel sad that we start training our girls to be "hawt women" so early. I'm not being patronizing, I genuinely feel sad. I feel just as sad when women tell me they've been dieting since they were 8 years old. It's not about looking down on others for their choices. But if that's what you need to see, then fine. It just shows that you have a lot at stake here. That you have a lot invested in NOT seeing, and NOT looking at your choices. And that's ok, it's really hard. And it's painful, to realize you've been doing something for "men" and thinking it was for you. So I get the defensiveness.

And again, NO ONE Is talking about who is a better feminist! Seriously, god damn, why do people always bring this up? I'm so fucking sick of it!!! NO ONE said ANYTHING about ANYONE being "not a good feminist" or being "less of a feminist then me." NOT ONE PERSON. So fucking STOP with this BS.

it's not cool to criticize anything that women do.

Is this for real? Feminism is *not* about never criticizing women's actions/attitudes.
It's like whenever people start discussing the ways in which patriarchy affects women's everyday behaviors, a bunch of women come out of the woodwork to claim that feminism is about "choice" and how dare anyone examine the influences & ramifications of individual women's choices.
Feminism is not about sticking our heads in the sand and leaving life unexamined.

And I love how the ardent defenders of make-up/heels/implants etc. assume that anyone who critiques those things must be an ugly loafer-wearing hag.
It's entirely possible to partake in beauty rituals and the like and STILL be aware of the fact that female beauty requirements are sexist and oppressive. We do what we can to survive in the patriarchy. Just because I don't delude myself into believing "I curl my eyelashes for meeee!" doesn't mean I don't do it.

SarahMC, you rock.

I have a phobia about body hair. I shave because otherwise I get twitchy. That's not really society, that's me being weird. And I will wear clothes or shoes that my boyfriend dislikes because I like them and think they look good on me, despite the fact that he finds them unattractive. It's not just about him. I like seeing those clothes on other women because I find them attractive. I like seeing them on myself because I find them attractive. Many, many guys have said I should wear flats. I ignore them, because it's not their choice.

Now, I don't do a lot of things that many women do to "look pretty;" I rarely wear makeup, my hair's usually messy and I don't dye it. So I'm not doing a lot of things that people here have listed as done for men. But honestly, I don't care when people do. That is their right. If they want to turn themselves into the snake-man from the circus that's their right.

I don't care if people chose NOT to wear heels or makeup or wear a bra either (not shaving gets to me, but like I said, that's just my personal phobia and I accept that). I simply don't want them to assume that just because I want to wear and do those things I'm some kind of brainwashed bimbo.

And I agree it should be about equality. Let's get men the right to wear heels too.

Also, I'm glad to see Poe's Law is in effect here with regards to haydin's post...

Beauty rituals aren't just done "for men." Or for the one particular man in your life. Society as a whole expects women to partake in beauty rituals. Our bosses, our parents, our friends, EVERYONE.
Whether or not our boyfriends care what shoes we wear or how long it's been since we've dyed your hair, in order to be noticed as women, period, we're required to perform "femininity." It's not about doing things for individual men (though it often is); it's about doing things to be valued as women by the patriarchy, full stop. And of course we're only valued for our looks.

So if the ONLY beauty ritual I perform is to occasionally wear heels or maybe a skirt (and properly clean my face, but I do that because zits tend to hurt), am I still conforming to society?

People tend to value me for who I am despite my footwear. Maybe I am just lucky, or maybe it's because I know smart people. But I do not feel like people care more about my looks than my personality. There are people who do, and I will help them, but it's not the heels.

Also, I like how you all seem to be so against "blaming the victim" until the "victim" is doing something that you disagree with.

"So if the ONLY beauty ritual I perform is to occasionally wear heels or maybe a skirt (and properly clean my face, but I do that because zits tend to hurt), am I still conforming to society?"

The answer is yes, you are conforming it doesn’t matter how many times you do it. If you shave your legs you are conforming. All of us conform to different degrees. I’d hope someone who calls herself a feminist would have a goodenough insight to be able to understand that. Did anyone here try to berate you or ask you to turn in your feminist card? No they didn’t. Did anyone say you’re a worthless human being because you conform to societal norms, no they didn’t. So don’t get defensive, it’s not about you.

And excuse who here is blaming the victim?

God, Basiorana, who is blaming anyone for anything? The only thing that deserves blame of any sort is the patriarchy? Can you stop being defensive for one minute in order to see that we're critical of the patriarchy's demands on women and not women themselves? Performing "femininity" is a survival strategy in our culture. Society's expectations influence our decisions re: how to live. The only people I'm critical of are those who refuse to acknowledge that.

Here's my question. Why is it that people assume that when a woman defends wearing heels (or make-up, or hair product, or miniskirts, or a push-up bra, or whatever) it means she hasn't examined the effect the patriarchy might have on her choices? Why do people assume that she's blindly following what society expects? Why is it never acknowledged that she may have examined the entire situation and come to the conclusion that she wants to wear them anyway? I realize that some of you are eventually acknowledging that possibility, but why (especially here on this particular blog) is the knee-jerk reaction to assume that the woman is thoughtlessly conforming?

And by the way, for those who say heel-wearers shouldn't be so defensive... If you're not seeing the judgment and the condemnation in many of these posts, maybe y'all are the ones who are being deliberately blind, not us.

“but why (especially here on this particular blog) is the knee-jerk reaction to assume that the woman is thoughtlessly conforming?�

No Kkimmy the assumption is not that she is thoughtlessly conforming, but that she is *conforming*. But when someone comes here and says things like “So if the ONLY beauty ritual I perform is to occasionally wear heels or maybe a skirt (and properly clean my face, but I do that because zits tend to hurt), am I still conforming to society?� ( Note: I don’t mean this as an attack on Basiorana, I am jsyt using this as an example.) that shows that they don’t even realize that they are conforming.

Like I said most of us conform to different degrees but some of us are in denial about it.

I don't assume anyone is thoughtlessly conforming unless they INSIST, as many women have done here, that they *only* do X, Y, and Z for *themselves* and it's just a coincidence that the patriarchy treats X, Y and Z as compulsory for women.

I guess it's only natural that women would feel defensive and personally attacked by stuff like this, even when that's not the case at all. But we've all experienced the same exact thing and dealt with it.
It's necessary for growth. It's like a white person learning about white privilege.

I don't feel personally attacked. I feel like you don't realize that you're asking to take people's choices AWAY, not give them MORE.

If I am conforming, I am doing so willingly and wholeheartedly. I enjoy doing these things. Therefore I should not be judged for them. Sometimes women can genuinely LIKE things that are encouraged by men or that sexualize them.

I spent 18 years of my life being forced to be asexual. If I chose to sexualize myself, I should be allowed to do so.

You'll be hard pressed to find one instance in which anyone here advocated taking choices away. Go for it. I'll be waiting.

Okay, SarahMC (and I hope you know before I start that I like and respect you as a poster and am usually behind your posts 100%). However, this is where you lose me:

don't assume anyone is thoughtlessly conforming unless they INSIST, as many women have done here, that they *only* do X, Y, and Z for *themselves* and it's just a coincidence that the patriarchy treats X, Y and Z as compulsory for women.

Here's a scenerio: a woman could look at an activity (heels, make-up, whatever), evaluate the patriarchal influence, weigh the pros and cons (basically do a cost-benefit analysis), and then decide that, regardless of what the patriarchy thinks, she wants to engage in that activity for herself. She is not denying that there is a cultural influence on her choices, but she has done everything humanly possible to come to her own decisions, and she understands that rebelling against societal norms simply because they are societal norms wouldn't be any better than conforming for the same reason. By performing this evaluation and self-analysis, she has made this choice her own as much as any human (male or female) can make a choice their own.

Is that scenerio impossible in your mind? Could it never happen?

Kimmy, I can't speak for Sarah, but as somebody who also agrees with her posts most of the time and as someone who has made the argument I believe that she is making, I think I know where she is coming from.

Of course what you are describing is a completely different kettle of fish altogether, and I believe it's what Buggle is gesturing toward when she says that we all struggle under the patriarchy: we all make choices that are influenced by our cultural conditioning because that is the human condition, and sometimes we all do things that are patriarchy-approved--make-up, heels, whatever. And we do them because being aware of the conditioning is not the same thing as being free of it, and/or because we think the pluses outweigh the minuses, just as you way.

But I have seen and heard and met a good number of people who do use the language of "choice" to evacuate any discussion of the valance of various choices, who dismiss any attempt to talk about the significance and larger cultural context of individual choices, and do seem to claim that taking stripping classes is empower, for instance, and it's just a coincidence that stripping just happens to be exactly what patriarchy has desired of women.

So I think those are two different groups.

Baisonara? NOBODY IS TRYING TO TAKE AWAY YOUR HEELS. Okay? We're just asking you to examine why you wear them.

I doubt I'm going to get through to anybody at this point, but I'm going to keep trying anyway. I wear heels. I wear them because I like the way they look. You could even say, I'm wearing them for myself, in the sense that I'm not wearing them for any other particular person. My fiance doesn't care, my coworkers don't even notice, my parents have been lecturing me for years about how my choice in shoes are probably going to cause me to end up with foot and back problems. So yes, I'm wearing heels because I like the way they look. But I had to ask myself, why do I like them? After all, there's nothing intrinsically attractive about a high heeled shoe. As someone above pointed out, by some perspectives they can look comical. And yes, they do make the calf more shapely and the butt more firm, but my calves and butt can stand pretty well on their own. And why is it so freaking essential for women to have shapely calves and firm butts anyway? I love a man with a firm butt, but I don't see my male coworkers putting on high heels to make their butts look nicer for me... nor do I see them doing it to make their butts look nicer FOR THEMSELVES. It's only women who are taught to tie their self worth to the shape of their bodies, and only women who have such exacting demands on those bodies that they can't obtain the look naturally and have to resort to surgery and special garments. This is getting rambly, but the point is, when I asked myself why I find high heels so attractive, the only honest answer I could come up with is because society has told me that they are. Now, I still wear the heels. Because I still like the way they look. But I acknowledge that it's fucked up that society teaches women that to be attractive and feminine, they have to wear shoes that damage their backs, damage their feet, shorten their calves, cause pain, and make it more difficult to move. Can you not acknowledge that as well, without seeing every post to that effect as an attack on your choices?

Not to get all "Feministing commentors admiration society" here, but EG, you're another one I greatly admire. Just thought I'd mention that, since I'd already started with Sarah. *heh*

I understand what you're saying about those who use the language of choice as an excuse. I guess I just don't see assuming that's the case when dealing with this particular crop of women (and, Buggle, forgive me for singling you out, but your posts seem to be really bad about assuming that a woman who disagrees with you hasn't examined things).

And, of course, I'm irritated in general by the idea (which I've seen expressed in these contexts before, can't remember if in this particular thread) that women are so opporessed by the patriarchy that they absolutely cannot make a choice of their own. That just kind of bugs me on a primal, button-pushy sort of level.

SarahMC: Okay, here.

Just saying "I don't judge women who wear them" or "I don't want to make them illegal" doesn't mean that you actually aren't judging them (women who wear heels are only doing it because society is making them! they can't think for themselves!). Many comments have implied that heels should be made so unfashionable that women will be looked down on for choosing to wear them.

JonasJeepers: "I hope I live to see heels go the way of foot binding."

buggle: "I don't think it's bad to judge high heels. They are bad for us, marketed towards us, and they hurt us. So whatever, I'll judge high heels as much as I want... we all struggle under the patriarchy."

under_zenith: "...you wear high heeled shoes because you like them, but why do you like them? And why do you like them enough to risk foot and back problems?"

under_zenith: "..it's messed up that beauty standards for women are such that they are not achievable for most women without those women having to wear shoes that make it more difficult to walk and cause damage to the feet, legs, and back in the long term."

june: "High heels are no better than bound feet, IMO. They seek to restrict the movements and cause lifelong pain and discomfort to the female sex."

MirandaJay: "Does anyone else have an issue with reducing feminism to just having a choice? Because I thought feminism was about equality..."

haydin (blatant sarcasm): "I wear 4 inch heels to make myself artificially tall (because height is associated with men, and therefore better than being short)."

MirandaJay: "Well, I don't see what's unfortunate about wondering if certain choices women make are actually productive ones that move forward to the ultimate goal of equality."

buggle:"Like mirandajay said, [feminism is] about equality. It's not about "women doing whatever the fuck they want and nobody better say anything about my decision." ...I care that you refuse to look at your choices and how they have been influenced by living in a violently anti-woman society. That's all."

It sounds a lot like you think all women who wear heels are only doing it to appease "the patriarchy" and haven't actually given a thought about the history of heels, and so, they should "go the way of foot-binding" and become so foreign and "gross" that women will not be able to wear them without being looked down upon, about the reaction I get if I mention I'm wearing a corset.

Kimmy, I admire you as well. :)

And the woman in the scenario you described *is me*. That scenario is entirely possible and I'm sure it's familiar to many of the women who regularly post here. That is NOT the mindset I oppose.

The women I'm referring to DO deny that there is a cultural influence on their choices. They DON'T performing any evaluation or self-analysis.

Like EG said, (verbatim, heh heh) a good number of people use the language of "choice" to evacuate any discussion of the valance of various choices, who dismiss any attempt to talk about the significance and larger cultural context of individual choices.

THAT is what drives me nuts.

Jesus Christ, Basiorana, judging high heels =/= wanting to see them banned. Not one of those commenters is advocating taking any choices away. Evaluating & judging choices is not the same as trying to reduce the number of choices available.

Baisonara, if you're wearing high heels for yourself and not for the approval of society, then why should it bother you if society stops approving of your choice?

I don't deny that society and culture has shaped my standards of beauty. I'm saying that I wear heels because I want to wear heels, not because I feel obligated to in order to "survive in the patriarchy." My desires may conform to society, but I am not doing it to conform.

And I know you don't want to BAN high heels, but you want to make them socially unacceptable. And that's not a lot better than making flats socially unacceptable.

I also don't consider it inappropriate to not want to be treated like a bimbo or an idiot by society because of the height of my heels. I'm sure you can appreciate that, since today women are often treated poorly for their fashion choices.

Heels of any sort throw my hips off and literally cripple me. I can barely walk for about a week after a day of wearing heels. I really like pumps and heels, but they literally send me into physical therapy.

The problem is when that some women wear, the problem is when heels are EXPECTED. It's a problem when wearing shoes that literally destroy some women's bodies (like mine) is what signals you are a professional woman who should be take seriously.

I also wish that I had really listened to my mother and NOT worn heels before I destroyed my hips and back with them. Unfortunately, it's not something you really worry about until it happens.

I wouldn't allow my 5th grader to wear heels for health reasons, and will seriously discourage my daughters from wearing them at any point for those same reasons, especially since bad hips could run in the family. It will be their choice when they're old enough, of course.

Also, women make up something like 80% of orthopedic visits, and that is largely due to heels. So if you want to wear them, fine, but it is a health risk, and remember many of us physically cannot (and can't afford physical therapy if we did wear them).

Heels of any sort throw my hips off and literally cripple me. I can barely walk for about a week after a day of wearing heels. I really like pumps and heels, but they literally send me into physical therapy.

The problem isn't that some women like to wear them, the problem is when heels are EXPECTED. It's a problem when wearing shoes that literally destroy some women's bodies (like mine) is what signals you are a professional woman who should be take seriously.

I also wish that I had really listened to my mother and NOT worn heels before I destroyed my hips and back with them. Unfortunately, it's not something you really worry about until it happens.

I wouldn't allow my 5th grader to wear heels for health reasons, and will seriously discourage my daughters from wearing them at any point for those same reasons, especially since bad hips could run in the family. It will be their choice when they're old enough, of course.

Also, women make up something like 80% of orthopedic visits, and that is largely due to heels. So if you want to wear them, fine, but it is a health risk, and remember many of us physically cannot (and can't afford physical therapy if we did wear them).

And I know you don't want to BAN high heels, but you want to make them socially unacceptable. And that's not a lot better than making flats socially unacceptable.

Personally, I want to make them socially neutral, instead of socially preferred to flats as they are now. But I'll repeat my question above, if you're wearing heels for yourself and not in order to be acceptable by society, why do you care whether heels become socially unacceptable?

I also don't consider it inappropriate to not want to be treated like a bimbo or an idiot by society because of the height of my heels. I'm sure you can appreciate that, since today women are often treated poorly for their fashion choices.

Yeah, I can. Women are placed in a Catch-22, if they don't care about fashion they're ugly and dowdy, if they do they're shallow and looks obsessed. They can't win. That sucks. But nobody here is advocating treating women who wear heels like bimbos or idiots. ALL I am trying to say here is that it's messed up that women are taught that they need to wear such a thing to be attractive - and make no mistake, that IS what they are taught.

Kimmy, we've had this conversation before. I understand that you want to give people the benefit of the doubt, and that's great. I know that lots of people HAVE examined their choices, much in the way you describe in an above post.

What I am responding to are the people who are saying that there is NO WAY they were influenced by society in ANY WAY!!!!! There are a number of posts like that on this thread, and those are the ones that frustrate me. It's not about them disagreeing with me. It's about them refusing to look at their choices. And on a feminist forum, that really frustrates me. As do the claims that I or other people are calling heel-wearers bad feminists, or whatever.

I really don't see where I made big assumptions, but you can feel free to clarify that, if you want. Actually, I just went back and read all of my posts, and now I feel pissy. I absolutely did not say one thing about any specific poster, and I certainly did not make any assumptions about anyone. So where is this coming from? You've accused me of this before, Kimmy, and I'd really like the accusations to stop. If you can find something in a post of mine where I made an assumption about a poster, then I'd like to see it. If not, then please stop picking on me.

under_zenith: Actually, I was taught that I am tall, so I need to wear flats at all times to be shorter than men who might otherwise be threatened by taller women *eyeroll*.

I agree that we shouldn't be supporting one style over another. Socially neutral would be ideal. But surely you admit that there are others who have implied that they should be unacceptable, especially those complaining about health problems and restricting movement and comparing them to foot binding?

And yeah, I know, heels DO cause health problems, but so does alcohol. Heels aren't at the level of breaking all the bones in the foot and causing it to grow warped and the tissue to die. If you only wear them on special occasions or at a job that's mostly sitting down anyway, and you learn how to walk in them correctly, they don't cause serious damage

Buggle, here are your quotes from this thread, and there were others of this type in the previous thread on heels you've referenced.

"Trying to say you only wear heels/makeup/shave your legs for "YOU" is just not true. I think it'd be worth looking at why you are so defensive. Not saying this to any particular poster, just everyone who is all upset about anyone saying anything bad about high heels. What are you really so upset about? I'm not judging you, I don't care if you wear heels, or whatever. I care that you refuse to look at your choices and how they have been influenced by living in a violently anti-woman society. That's all."

"It's not about looking down on others for their choices. But if that's what you need to see, then fine. It just shows that you have a lot at stake here. That you have a lot invested in NOT seeing, and NOT looking at your choices. And that's ok, it's really hard. And it's painful, to realize you've been doing something for "men" and thinking it was for you. So I get the defensiveness."

Those two statements are just chock-full of assumptions about women who are defending wearing heels. It's possible you don't mean it the way it's written, but those are the words on the page. You assume that women don't examine their choices. You assume that women are willfully blind to the society around them. You assume that a woman can't do something on her own behalf, even if it happens to agree with the patriarchy. You assume that you know why these women make the choices that they do better than they do themselves. The fact that you've chosen to include no specific names doesn't lessen the presence of the assumptions, or their broad, all-encompasing nature.

I'm not picking on you. I've got nothing against you, and I'm glad you're posting and getting your view out there, if only so that everyone can be aware of it. I'm merely pointing out what is present in your posts. If what's there isn't what you mean to say, you might think about being more careful about your wording in the future. But surely you can see how those assumptions are present in your words as posted.

Kimmy, I'm not sure if you read my response to you a few comments up, but I want to address something you just said to buggle.

You assume that women don't examine their choices. You assume that women are willfully blind to the society around them. You assume that a woman can't do something on her own behalf, even if it happens to agree with the patriarchy.

When women are stating things outright on this very thread, there is no need to assume.

No woman on this thread has said "There is no patriarchy in existance, women are not pressured to wear heels, and society doesn't affect me in the slightest." No one has said anything even close to that. At most, some have denied that their choices were made for them by the patriarchy, which is a view I hold more than a little sympathy with.

Kimmy, that is just not true. There are posters who have specifically said those things.

Lobbyart said "I find them far more comfortable than flats, so I choose to wear them. I'm not under any "patriarchy" in my choice."

Denying the existence of the patriarchy, or at least denying that it could possibly have any effect on her choices. (Not picking on you lobbyart, just using it as an example for Kimmy)

So there's one, that took me 30 seconds to find. And there are others, but I don't need to reread them. Maybe you do.

Secondly, I think you are making a lot of assumptions about what I wrote. Putting intentions in there that I just don't have. I meant what I said, and I wasn't assuming anything about anyone. I was responding directly to what posters wrote.

Also Kimmy, why are you speaking for other posters? You don't know if they have examined their choices, anymore than I do. You are making the assumption that everyone on this thread has done the same amount of work around looking at our choices. How would you know? You can only speak for yourself. Why do you feel like you need to defend other posters, and speak for them? Talk about patronizing.

Aw, thanks Kimmy!

I will say that I would love for heels to become unfashionable. All scientific and medical research shows that they're bad for people, actually detrimental to bodily health. I have no problem with seeing them go the way of the corset, and I don't see why that would be a problem. Corsets were very, very unhealthy for women. I would love to live in a society in which women and men were not conditioned to view pain and unhealthy behavior as beautiful.

Given that I still think smoking is cool, though, I don't see it happening any time soon.

I think it's more likely heels will become increasingly more comfortable and safe. Just like corsets, which no longer break ribs.

Buggle, you see "there is no patriarchy in my choice" and read it as a denial of the patriarchy. I read it as a denial that the patriarchy forced her choice. Which is the argument I've been making all along, and doesn't at all match up with the assumptions of yours quoted above.

And no, I'm not reading anything into anything. I'm responding to the literal meanings of the words you used.

And yes, we are both making assumptions about the posters here. The difference is that I take into account the fact that this is a feminist blog with mostly feminist posters. So my assumption gives them the benefit of the doubt. Yours doesn't.

And if you're going to start chastizing me because I think you're being harsh on the other posters here and I say so... I hope you're prepared to spend a lot of time chastizing people for just that thing, because it's a pretty damned common practice to speak up in these threads. It's a weak kind of attack to make, and it doesn't touch on my argument at all. Nor does it make any sense, given the nature of the board and the fact that it's extremely common practice. It makes even less sense when you consider that I'm giving these folks the benefit of the doubt, while you're castigating them, and yet you think I'm the one being patronizing.

Hey guys; I had this whole huge comment to write to you guys regarding the whole high heels debacle...however my computer froze, shut down and there fore having me loose all my well thought out and thought provoking views....so in short and to sum it up i guess, I wanted to THANK everyone on here whether they agree with wearing high heels or disagree....it gives me a chance to see feminist in an active and recent view. I am a recently ( and first one in my fam) hispanic college graduate with a passion for feminism, ending racism and basically any and all forms of discrimination (call me an overacheiver) but my motto in life is "I want to change the world". Im not surrounded by intellectual and strong woman on a regular basis therefore since graduating from college havent really had a venue. This blog on high heels as petty as it sounds has the underlying socially constructed beauty ideal so in actually its not really petty but a huge portion of what feminism (in my opinion) is about.

In regards to the whole "nobody is denying the patriarchy here" thing... I saw this quote in one of the posts that seemed in favor of high heels: "Blaming some amorphous patriarchy for "imposing" values on society is overly simplistic and unrealistic."

I don't know if this person considers themselves a feminist or what, but I thought that was a pretty amazing statement.

Sometimes coming to feministing makes me wonder if I actually have an accurate idea of what feminism is. Because I thought it was about equality, not choice. And I thought that the existence of the patriarchy was a basic foundation of feminism...?

I'm also really surprised to see my quotes/name up on that list of people who are making judgments/assumptions/calling for feminist resignations because I really do fail to see what is wrong with questioning the actions of people. And I didn't even say anything about high heels.

Maybe I'm confused on the issue: Aren't high heels actually really bad for you? I feel like I've read a lot of articles that have shown spine misalignments and all sorts of back problems. Isn't this a medical fact, or is this a lie? Is that why people are defending them, because they actually aren't bad for your body? Do I just have the wrong information?

you see "there is no patriarchy in my choice" and read it as a denial of the patriarchy. I read it as a denial that the patriarchy forced her choice.
I read it as “patriarchy didn’t have *any* influence on my choice, not that “patriarchy was not the only factor that shaped my deciosn�. She says there is *no* patriarchy in her choice. And that’s just laughable. She is *in fact* “denying that there is a cultural influence on her choices�. Who are these people that can make decisions completely unaffected by societal pressures?

“Here's a scenario: a woman could look at an activity (heels, make-up, whatever), evaluate the patriarchal influence, weigh the pros and cons (basically do a cost-benefit analysis), and then decide that, regardless of what the patriarchy thinks, she wants to engage in that activity for herself.�
See, the thing is it can’t be *regardless* of what patriarchy thinks. You mean if you (or she) grew up on another planet where high heels are not and have never been in fashion and women are not valued solely or mostly for their appearance, and all of a sudden a pair of excruciating high heels were presented to you, you would find them appealing? Hmm… what are the chances of that?

You (I mean the generic you) wear high heels because you think they are pretty and that has nothing to do with patriarchy? Well, think again because patriarchy influences us in both subtle and obvious ways. You don’t have to necessarily think that “Oh, if I don’t wear heels to my interview I won’t get this job� (though I have heard this from other women and I think it is valid), to have your decision be influenced by patriarchy. You find it to be pretty? Well, why do you think you find it pretty? Are you seriously claiming that patriarchy doesn’t influence our aesthetics?

I would like everyone here using the word "patriarchy" to replace it with "red menace" and see just how paranoid you all sound.

Yes, men have dominated society for many years. Yes, women have been oppressed. But when you say "Patriarchy" you're conjuring up images of a bunch of old white politicians sitting around and talking about how to keep women down for the sake of keeping women down. It's a very naive way to look at the world, and coming from me, an accusation of naivety means a lot.

It's like you're trying to use this "patriarchy" to scare women into joining your cause, when it actually just discourages them, because anyone who does not feel oppressed looks at that and thinks, "paranoid."

Those poor women.

The image in my head of their deaths is horrifying, but somehow I can also imagine the shot (woman w/heel stuck in tracks, open mouthed and helpless, as a train approaches) as the perfect set-up for a high fashion photo shoot.

------------------
Slightly off-topic question for the woman who trained herself to run in heels... have you ever compared your time against how fast you run in sneakers? Just wondering.

---------------------
And finally, I would love to encourage anyone who does not feel oppressed to stop posting comments on this board.

Basiorana, I'm just going to refer you here: FAQ: Isn't "the Patriarchy" just some conspiracy theory that blames all men, even decent men, for women's woes? In fact, you may want to check out the whole blog.

sgzax: Can't I understand that other people feel oppressed and want to work towards liberating them without feeling oppressed myself? There are many women who truly, genuinely are oppressed, and I like to learn about their causes and do what I can to help.

And under_zenith: Thank you for the reading, that's informative. But my point still stands-- it presents an image to women on the fence about such issues that feminists are paranoid, and does not encourage them to support feminism.

Oh for pete's sake; Basiorana doesn't "believe" in patriarchy...
Patriarchy doesn't care whether or not you believe in it. It's like evolution.
PLEASE educate yourself about feminist terms and concepts before making statements like that in a feminist group.
Patriarchy isn't a group of men. It's a SYSTEM.

I fail to see how continually denying coercive and oppressive elements of popular culture and society will help liberate people who are oppressed. Do we propose to help them by telling them that they're not oppressed after all? I don't think most people here are in the market for that particular brand of...

My best suggestion is that if you don't personally feel oppressed you quietly congratulate yourself and lay off the topic. And engage in the topics that you feel require action.

Maybe the attention garnered from being the continual nay-sayer is too too appealing to give other perspectives the benefit of the doubt and LISTEN FOR A CHANGE.

I think you said you were here to learn on this or another thread. You can do that by LISTENING.

SarahMC: If you used the term "patriarchal culture" it would not seem so paranoid. But I would presume part of what you hope to attain as feminists is to get more people to accept the concept of feminism without such knee-jerk reactions. If you have statements that people like me, who do not yet fully understand the feminism movement, automatically interpret as paranoid ramblings merely because of how they are said, then you will not gain many new converts to your cause.

Most people today support feminism, they just don't realize it, and never admit it when it is pointed out to them. Phrases like "The Patriarchy" are why. Even if it isn't paranoia, it sounds like paranoia. In fact, it's a bit like me talking about chivalry-- just because I think of chivalry as something different than society thinks (and this blog has shown me that yes, my interpretation of chivalry is not the same as the rest of the world and I should remember that), doesn't mean that society doesn't think of it that way.

And sgzax, I merely wanted to voice my opinion, as others have, that there is nothing inherently wrong with heels as long as you know how to wear them and when NOT to wear them. The rest is just replying to comments. I'd stop but you guys keep posting as well, and directing posts at me.

I have been listening. I've also been learning. And if you paid attention, you'd have noticed that I have conceded several points, repeatedly admitted I might be wrong on one issue or another, and changed my stance often. Just because I am not immediately converted to every single thing you believe in because I am so dazzled by your brilliance does not mean I am not listening, or not learning.

Basiorana:

We're using the words "the patriarchy" because that's the type of society we have.

This is not really just feminist theory, but basic sociological facts. All societies that have ever existed are generally categorized into one of three types of social organizations that deal directly with gender: Matriarchies (which value women over men) Patriarchies (which value men over women) and Egalitarian which hold both sexes as equal.

The fact that America and most western societies are patriarchies is not really up for debate there's not "even if" here. If anyone suggests that using the term is paranoid, they are really just very uninformed.

Calling it by any other name is silly, because there is no other name. This is just what it's called, not just by feminists but by academics in all social science fields.

I am merely pointing out that my reaction is common and that the phrase will not win over many people. If you determine that that is an acceptable loss, so be it.

I would say that while Western culture has "patriarchal influences" it is no longer truly 100% a patriarchy. But this is perhaps not the thread to discuss this, and I regret bringing it up.

Okay, this thread has gone completely off topic and I feel bad about that. That, combined with the fact that I really should be thinking more about schoolwork right now, means I will not come check it again. If you are really, really determined to change my mind, click on my name and go to my blog.

The trolliness always ends with a commercial for the blog for some reason.

Okay, one last post.

sgzax: For Pete's sake, I'm not a troll. Is it impossible to believe that someone could genuinely want to learn, yet take everything with a grain of salt and not automatically believe what they are told? I mentioned my blog because I didn't want to seem like I was just quitting. I'm sorry if you interpreted that as a "commercial." Forgive me.

Of course we're not going to "win over" those who'd have a knee-jerk reaction to the term "patriarchy." They're the same people who claim women & other minorities want "special rights" and other nonsense. Oh well!
Like MirandaJay said, our society IS a patriarchy; it's not really up for debate. Just because some people fail to understand this does not make it untrue or "paranoid." It's like saying the USA is not a federal republic.