Men, however, "tend to think that is what you do in life. You grow up and have a baby."

I think that should be "men tend to think that is what you do in life. You grow up and SHE has a baby..."

First time commenter! I couldn't resist. I went to a couples counselor with my boyfriend to discuss having children, I'm reluctant, he is not. She asked us a question I thought was one of the most interesting and in many ways useful I have ever heard from a counselor. Rough paraphrase..."When you think of having children, what age do you envision them being?" I replied "newborn", thinking about all the work and sleepless nights, and my boyfriend envisioned an age around 5 and playing on the beach. There just didn't seem to be any connection to the fact that it takes a long time to get to this place. He saw having kids as "fun" and either chose to focus on that(which isn't wrong necessarily) and push the real responsibility and work to the background. I also tried to explain how I have been told by women professors (I'm getting my Ph.D.) that I should either have kids while I'm writing the dissertation or after I get tenure, that in between it is impossible. No professor has ever mentioned any such thing to him (he is also getting his Ph.D.). Again, I'm not saying different views are wrong but trying to get him to understand how drastically this would affect my life (both are lives actually) was and is difficult.

This rings true to me, at least in my personal life. I really want to only have one child (although twins run in my family, so I might get 2 for the price of 1 ;-) ), but my partner has always wanted a big family. We can compromise on 2, but I think I have a clearer picture of what it is like to be a parent in this day and age, the pressures put upon you, the economic and emotional costs (although of course there are emotional benefits as well). Even in the way society sees women who are mothers or who are going to be mothers. Just yesterday I was on the train and a man refused to move over in his seat to give a pregnant woman the aisle seat, which would have been more comfortable for her (she was pretty far along, and squeezing into the seat by the window probably would have been pretty uncomfortable). Maybe it's just the awful city I live in, but maybe it's indicative of a larger mindset - you got yourself into this, now deal with it kind of thing. No sort of courtesy or kindness at all.

For me, the fun part of having kids would be when they are 5+. Babies are very cute but seem like waaay too much physical work, honestly. (I like that older kids have more of a personality too.) But of course parenting is a lot of work even if kids are older. I used to think adopting non-babies would be the way to go, but I just got a dog (not a puppy). I realize it's not the same, but it's alot more work than I expected. My husband is working right now and I'm not (looking for a job) and I'm worried this sets up a bad precedent for when/if we have kids/adopt.

This study made a lot of sense to me. If you are working/looking for work and are married, as a woman that can be a negative. People figure you will quit your job to have kids soon, or that you won't be as good a worker because you'll be distracted by child care. On the other hand, as a man it's a positive, because you are "responsible" and "grown up." Perhaps my solution will be to start my own business, but that's easier said than done.

Maybe I'm feelinge extra negative now because of the sleep deprivation. (Doggie and Red Sox games are a bad combination!)

As someone who chooses not to have children, I can tell you that my husband and I have different reasons for our choice, but it's just crazy how so many people just EXPECT us to have children one day. I think too many people have children without thinking about whether it's right for themselves (or the child), they just think it's part of the natural progression. By the way, I prefer the term "child free" to "childless".

On the surface, that's the opposite of me and my husband. I talk about "when we have kids" while he tells everyone that we're never having kids. But in the end, I think we're going to reverse. As I get older and parenting becomes more "real" to me, in terms of what it actually takes, and as I see my friends and peers raising kids, I realize more and more that it's not what I want. I could never be a stay at home mom. It just would not be something I'd be good at. My husband, when he's not being all anti-having children, has talked about being a stay at home dad, but frankly I don't believe him, and I think he seriously underestimates what stay at home parents do so I'm not even sure it would be a good idea. So, we'd probably both work and then have a bunch of fights over who has to be the one to call in sick when the kids' sick or who has to stay up all night with the screaming baby, and I'm afraid that the fact that I make less and his is the job with healthcare (unless things change) will be brought up to make a decision in those situations, and I don't want to deal with that. So even though I've always expected and assumed I'll have children, I think in the end I'll pass because I'm not sure if I can deal with the realities.

given the socio-economic costs of parenthood that women bear to a greater extent than men (double shift, anyone?), I'd say this study is a big 'ol "duh."

This is a no-brainer. Of course women “care� about having children, but we also understand the cost of having children and not just in the dollar sense. Anecdotally the women I know, like my daugher for instance, who don’t have/want children, made this decision because they don’t really like kids and don’t believe they would make a good mom. They know what our society demands of “good� mothers and don’t feel they would meet the standard and don’t really want to. Unlike the fictional “fembots� as discussed the other day on this blog, women do “care� and feel. Just not always what others think we should care about. I also have work/family issues on the brain as I heard Ellen Bravo speak the other day and am reading her book “Taking on the Big Boys�. While women understand that motherhood is idealistically honored, in reality of day to day living, especially at work, it is not respected. I know that when deciding to whether or not complete my second pregnancy the issue of “can I do this� did not just consider the financial aspect but the workload I knew I would be taking on. This decision to have children truly does affect women in deeper and more significant ways than men.This is unfortunate for all of us, kids, moms and dads.

I have to somewhat agree with this article. Although my fiance and I have agreed to have children in about 4 years, he sometimes states that he thinks we should have kid right after we get married... which he knows damn well I won't do since I tell him that all the time. everynow and then he likes to bring up the idea. But the issue is that I don't think he really understand the HUGE sacrifices that will be made by doing so. I'm basically the breadwinner of the household currently and we'd be screwed if I had to go on Maternity leave. I've stated I'm not having kids until he finishes this welding course he wants. Furhtermore my career has room to grow and he doesn't see how right now, having kids would completely desimate any chance of me getting higher a position at work. Furthermore, he knows NOTHING about caring for children... he has no idea the amount of work he will end up doing.. I'm making him go to child rearing classes before I get pregnant haha.

I think it goes back to - not that I buy into this shit - evolutionary psychology.

Sure, when a woman does not have a child, it speaks nothing of her ability as a person. In fact, it says that she can earn money and does not need to rely on a man.

But when a man is childless (err ...childfree?), society looks at him as 1) sexually impotent (and probably incompetent) or 2) as one who does not have the financial means to attract enough women who would want to breed with him.

But then again, this is just my belief, in mixing evolutionary psych with gender roles bullshit.

I think I'd feel unfulfilled if I didn't have a child one day ...but for me, it's about bringing into the world and up a person who's going to be a good little feminist and productive member of society ...I'd like to see that my contribution to the world still lasts, long after I've died.

This also is EXACTLY what my life is like right now. In fact, it may be the one thing my boyfriend and I can't agree on. He wants kids (preferably a dozen but realistically 2) and I'm like "um...I'll think about it." I know that I don't want to be pregnant but he has this thing about passing on his genes. Like others on here have mentioned, it's like he just doesn't get the incredible sacrifices I'd have to make in order to bear the child. He says he'd have no problem being the primary caregiver and would love to be a stay-at-home dad, but what about those nine months when I have to serve as incubator and take time out form my career, etc?

someone was mentioning how they thought they could never be a stay at home mom... okay, maybe I'm a minority in this thought process, but I'd love to be a stay at home mom.. I know it sounds rediculous and like I've been brainwashed or something, but I LOVE cooking. I like cleaning my house and decorating, but I think it's cause it's all my stuff. It's mine, I worked for everything in there and when I'm tyding up I get this weird satisfaction where I'm like "I EARNED ALL OF THIS. I AM WOMAN THIS IS MY CASTLE HEAR ME ROAR". Maybe thats really twisted. Plus I like taking care of kids, I did it for a long time, I was a nanny once, I dunno, I really like being domestic. Problem is, I don't think I'll ever be able to be a stay at home mom, or retire for that matter.. I'll probably be working until I have a heartattack at 50 for smoking too much...

anyone else like being all domestic?

To me this study is definately "duh."

Women are the ones expected to do the majority of the work in childrearing. They are the ones expected to prioritize childrearing over their careers. Women are often in a place where they must chose between chidren or career. Men aren't socially held to these standards and can have career AND children because they aren't expected to do as much work.

In my work experience, I have only seen women chose to work part time to take care of their children and their husbands always remain full time. I have seen women pushed, litterally pushed, out of the company I worked for because they chose to have children.

So of COURSE women are more aware of what is at stake. So much more is at stake for them than men.

To me this study is definately "duh."

Women are the ones expected to do the majority of the work in childrearing. They are the ones expected to prioritize childrearing over their careers. Women are often in a place where they must chose between chidren or career. Men aren't socially held to these standards and can have career AND children because they aren't expected to do as much work.

In my work experience, I have only seen women chose to work part time to take care of their children and their husbands always remain full time. I have seen women pushed, litterally pushed, out of the company I worked for because they chose to have children.

So of COURSE women are more aware of what is at stake. So much more is at stake for them than men.

Yeah, I agree that this is kind of a "no duh" but still, extremely interesting.

The other thing I am interested in is the commenter who said she only wanted 1 child but was willing to compromise and have 2 because her partner wanted to have a big family. I understand that in relationships you have to make compromises to make it work but it seems like with such things as pregnancies and babies one should not be asked to compromise.

But then again, I am personally very anti child. My friend just got married and has baby fever. She stares at baby pictures and videos on the internet. She asked me recently "don't you ever even think about it?" and I responded that maybe once in a while I do, but the fantasy is never appealing enough for me to ignore the reality of having a child. And (sorry to those of you who want kids if this offends) I feel like people who want children are doing just that, ignoring the reality for the fantasy. Which is what a lot of the previous comments have stated, and the article as well - that men see the fun fantasy filled child experience and women see the reality and are hesitating.

But the other thing that makes me want to remain child free is that I really feel like HAVING a child is the ultimate practice in vanity, especially the legacy part people so often speak of. There are a lot of children who are in foster care who really need that love and guidance Profeministmale spoke of wanting to give to a child. And even more than that, changing someone who has been hurt and is on the path to being an unproductive, maladjusted member of society - adopting one of those children can really save a person.

I really advocate that people who want to have children consider adoption first.

Adoption costs a lot more and requires a lot more hassle/jumping through hoops, then just having sex with your significant other.

I feel like people who want children are doing just that, ignoring the reality for the fantasy.

Well, there's a baseless assumption if ever I've heard one. You're including those of us who've spent a lot of time doing childcare, who've researched pregnancy and childbirth, who've talked extensively to mothers about raising children at all ages? Nice.

I really feel like HAVING a child is the ultimate practice in vanity....I really advocate that people who want to have children consider adoption first.

Do you really think that you're the only person to have thought of this, that those of us who want children have never contemplated adoption? We're not actually automatons, you know.

I see this a lot from people who don't want to have children, and I think it's because they're overlooking the truly deep urge that many of us who want children feel. It's a far more powerful feeling for me--I'm not speaking for anybody else--than any kind of sex drive. As far as I feel, telling me not to have children would be like telling somebody with a strong sex drive not to have sex. It's a component of who I am that's absolutely integral. Further, part of that drive is a desire to experience pregnancy and childbirth, which to me seem like truly amazing things (when desired, I need not add).

All that said, I have to agree with Marissa. I'm not shocked, but I'm glad to see a study to back it up.

Miranda, it's worth saying that although I think adoption is always a great path, there are a lot of people who are simply not comfortable bringing up a child that isn't biologically theirs. Some people don't think they could love a child that isn't biologically theirs. To some people adoption isn't really an option.

My dad was like this... he would push for more and more kids, and my mom would resist. He was an abusive bastard, though. He used kids to keep her trapped. When she got her tubes tied after kid #4, dad was opposed all the way. Thank god it wasn't his decision.

Adoption costs a lot more and requires a lot more hassle/jumping through hoops, then just having sex with your significant other.

Word. It can also require years on waiting lists.

EG: Indeed. I'm all for adoption for people who want to adopt, but I have no desire to go through a costly, drawn-out, and in many cases, extremely emotionally exhausting process if I don't have any medical issues that prevent me from having children. You hear a lot of stories about people who pay for a woman's entire pregnancy and then she changes her mind after having the kid. If I'm going to a pay for a pregnancy, it may as well be my own. And on that note, in my relationship, I'm definitely the one who wants kids. It took me a long time to get my boyfriend to come around to the idea. But, I definitely have an understanding of the time/monetary commitment that children require, have spent plenty of time around children, and have a specific time frame for when I want to have kids. (which is at least five or six years from now!)

FemiDancer, it depends on how you adopt. If you adopt from foster care, like MirandaJay was talking about, it's not that expensive at all and is probably cheaper than good prenatal care. I know when my mom adopted me it didn't cost her more than about $500, and when you're looking at the cost of raising a child to adulthood that's really not much at all. If I have children they'll be adopted.

That makes sense. Just look at even man-boy comedies like Knocked Up, and it's clear that having children is an important accessory for what is accepted as an adult male. At the same time the individual cost of becoming a mother doesn't play a part.
I think what also plays a part is the stunted social interaction between men, which only allow for proper, ritualised interaction in certain settings, and to go on from college student interaction to family father interaction you need a child.

Frog Queen, I'll admit it--I love to be domestic and I could see myself as a stay-at-home mom too (though I'm not partnered nor do I have children yet), though of course in my vision, I also teach as an adjunct, write free-lance (both articles and grants) and I'm working on the "Great American Novel" (oh, and also I can perform wedding ceremonies, so that's a couple hundred bucks in Spring and Summer). Quite frankly, if we had Universal Health-Care, I could do all that right now. I'd make enough money for my simple living lifestyle and still have benefits (oh, and I'd save for retirement too), but currently (or until I'm partnered, I'm trapped at a full-time job...at least its a non-profit). I'd also do more activist work in this vision.

I don't think that our work-life balance is in time with reality. "Get to Work" pretty much laid out a traditional "Company Man's" work-life vision--a life that many men were not (and are not today) happy with.

Flexibility, getting paid for WORK rather than your time among the white-collar jobs, and protections for lower-paid hourly workers or service workers are NECESSARY to get our lives in line with what it takes to raise children and have time to be actively engaged in our democracies (and in the world's coming trials of climate and poverty). Of course, read "The Shock Doctrine" and you'll see that peace and prosperity is exactly what Neo-Con's and Free-Market Religious Fanatics DO NOT WANT because it makes it harder to hoard wealth, brain-wash the masses, and buy million dollar fish hooks (seriously, heard about it on NPR this morning; in a San Luca Cabos fishing competition among the super-rich, one guy had a solid gold, diamond encrusted, and ruby-bejeweled fish hook). Our child-care, health-care, and flexible work schedules gets in the way of their soul-sickness of domination, oppression, and excess.

By the way, the comment by the "relationship psychologist" on the last page of the article certainly reinforces my fears about the swamp of relationship counsellors, with the added bonus of dehumanising men.

Adopting from foster care can come with a host of other issues. If you adopt a child who is 3 or five, you don't build the relationship/bonding with them early on. Children who grow up in the foster care system also often have attachment disorders, etc. I'm not saying that all foster children are necessarily going to be difficult to raise, bond with, but there is certainly an increased chance of it.

I've experienced the opposite in my marriage. Once we had our first child, my wife is exerting a lot of pressure to have more children.

We had difficulty conceiving for many years until my son was born, and I know that my wife was much more concerned about having children than I was. I am glad that we ended up having our son after we both had gotten to a point in our careers where we have more flexibility.

One of the difficulties of deciding whether to have children seems to be that they are kind of "an experience good". In other words, it is very difficult to know whether you made the right choice until you actually become a parent.

My experience is pretty typical of many of my friends, where most of their wives want more children once they have had their first. I'm not sure exactly why that is. Then again, this is only personal anecdote. I work and live in the midwest, and this opinion may be more prevalent in this area of the country and in my age group.

One comment above struck me a little strange. In essence, the comment was:

"that having a child is the ultimate practice in vanity".

I've found it to be just the opposite. Nothing teaches humility more than being a parent. Raising an INDEPENDENT person to be an INDEPENDENT and SELF-SUSTAINING ADULT is difficult. There is often this pre-disposition that children will always reflect our values and agree with our choices. While this may be the case, the role of being a parent is not to indoctrinate children, it is ensure that they become a self-sufficient, independent adult. It is a large task that should only be taken by those who think they can make it work.

It may be an aside, but part of raising a self-sufficient adult is for a child to understand the role of work and career. It is for this reason, as much as any other, I belive that both parents working is actually a huge plus for raising a child who will recognize the value and accomplishment of work and career.

Of course men are disconnected from what it takes to raise a kid: they don't do most of it. How many dads refer to 'babysitting' their kids, like it's really her job and isn't he a prince for doing some of it? Men don't do as much childcare as women; it's a fact. No wonder they want kids more. It's a plus for them and they can always shove the work off on whatever women they're on---first wife, second wife after the first one got tired of doing everything, third wife if the second wife wises up.....

...and many of us have never felt the urge to procreate, ever. I feel nothing but revulsion when I look at a baby. Puppies on the other hand....!

Oh, am I supposed to be bothered by my childless state?

I understand this will be weird to say, but I wanted to share... But the adopt vs. have your own argument reminds me somewhat of the big fuss over Monty and whether it's ok to go to a breeder or if you should always get shelter dogs. Obviously not the same, but similar, maybe?

I would most certainly say that's true. When I was working at a corner store plenty of men came in and told me I should be having babies (at 21. when I was in the middle of my degree! wtf??) and have lots of babies.

An equal if not greater number of women came in and said to me "for the love of your sanity never, ever have children."

"anyone else like being all domestic?

Posted by: the frog queen"

I was totally uninterested in being domestic until I finally got my own apartment at 31, which coincided with starting to get bigger paychecks and "real" jobs. Now I do get a lot of satisfaction out of taking care of my little studio. Once I realized how thrilling it was to match my bathroom curtain to my bathmat, it was all over!

But, but, but... it's all about contrast and balance. I'm pretty sure that if I had to stay home all day with nothing to do but cook, decorate, and take care of kids, I would grow tired of it very quickly...

As a male involved in a number of childfree communities online, it's been my observation that these do tend to skew rather strongly female, which is in part due to what this study is saying, but also in part because childfree women feel a stronger social pressure, and more often adopt the label/find like-minded people for support. It's easier for men to say they don't want kids and not have people bother them about it all the time. At least, this is how it seems to me, from largely second-hand experience.

Nausicca: it sure drove my mom nuts. Four kids, and two of them sickly at that. My dad said exactly once, "What do you do all day?" before she sat him down--quite forcefully---and gave him a list, then strongly suggested he try to emulate it.

yeay! I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who enjoys domestic life. But obviously if you only cleaned and cooked for 12 hours a day, it wouldn't be fun anymore. That's what I've got a guitar for..

I was the one who wanted kids in my marriage, and when my wife finally admitted she didn't want any, I was rather distraught at first, but then decided I'd married her and not any kids, so rolled with it. I certainly don't believe I needed kids to live a fulfilling life (though being a "favorite uncle" is wicked fun).

First, let me say that I really like this discussion because it is bringing up a lot of good points.

geographergirl, I think the question you and your SO answered was excellent. It absolutely highlights the point of this study, and I think it is one that is definitely worth being discussed between every couple contemplating having a child - sort of a reality check that I believe is needed more often than not.

"but he has this thing about passing on his genes"
Can I be honest and say that I absolutely detest that mentality? And I have had this conversation with so many men who say the same thing whenever I talk about adopting in the future. It just skeeves me out because it brings to mind the whole idea of men's legacies (seed?...ugh)...I just don't see babies as legacies, nor does it leave room for the women to be part of this desire; you hardly ever hear of women wanting to pass on their genes, do you? I for one don't think mine are anything special, not more so than the next person.

I have zero qualms with folks like EG who have strong urges to physically have children, but I also agree with some of what MirandaJay says. I do believe that having children is a "practice in vanity." I am not eloquent enough to explain this notion which is a lot more complicated, but to me it refers to what I already mentioned of passing on genes, or wanting a baby who looks like mom or dad, etc. I also absolutely agree with her that there are too many impoverished kids already born who would definitely benefit from being given a nurturing upbringing. I detest how so many people only adopt brand spanking newborns, those who are past their "adoption prime" need to be taken care of, too.

But these are my beliefs. I am not concerned with pushing them unto anyone, in fact, I rarely talk about this need that I have to adopt a child precisely because I get those, "that's noble...but I want just one biological kid to pass on my genes", "it's easier to have sex", "it's such a drawn out process" comments. These piss me off.

Giving a child a chance at a better life is worth the hassles and jumping through all those hoops, and as Marle said, foster care adoptions are nowhere near as complicated as people tend to believe. However, rather than pulling guilt trips on people for not wanting to adopt for various reasons including the inability to love a non-biological child unconditionally, I'd rather have them have their own.

I really don't mean to sound like I have this "holier than thou" attitude, but I dislike the stigma that adoption tends to have, especially international ones.