I know that there are a lot of people who agree that should be parental involvement in the decision to be on contraceptives. I just really don't think that contraceptives that are safe for all ages should be inaccessible to those who need or want them simply because they aren't "old enough". Why should these women not be able to access the same medical care and preventative methods as other people in their school? And why should they be forced to notify someone else about their decision to have sex or use contraceptives? We don't believe that women should have to notify their husbands so why should young women have to notify their parents about intimate decisions, unless they feel comfortable doing so? When people are having sex earlier and earlier, and puberty is hitting us around the same time, shouldn't they be able to control when and if they want to have kids, when and if they want to be pregnant, and when and if they have a family of their own?

I've been in the same room as Bob Barr (R-GA) and the man is a complete and utter idiot.

And not the endearing, amusing kind, either.

I should also add that I think while I think that contraceptives should be available to all people, so long as they are deemed safe and aren't coerced into using them, I do think that there is the aspect of education is missing. I mean, we're not taught about healthy sexuality-- society is downright scared of it, and we're not taught about the difference between healthy and unhealthy relationships, half the time, and let's face it we know more about sex than our parents do. If we're not equipping people to be responsible in their decisions through comprehensive sex and sexuality education, how can we expect that people will wait until their married or can access contraceptives (sometimes 16/18) to have sex? I don't have a solution for this (aside from comprehensive sex education and a paradigm shift), but it's just hard, because if we were restricting access to contraceptives based on race, class, etc. people would be raising such a stink, but because its age... it's because we're "protecting innocence".

The English major inside me just had a heart attack.

The "students may not be able to read or do math real well"? REAL WELL? Apparently BOB BARR is the one in need of a fucking grammatical education. The students may read or do math well. The students may not read very well. The students are not proficient in reading and arithmetic. "Real well" is a Southern slang term that is not grammatically correct. Where the fuck does he get off telling other states how to conduct their educational systems when he can't put together a sentence?

And since when do people who have sex or take contraceptives become stupid? I'd love to see some kind of causational link proven on that one.

The English major inside me just had a heart attack.

The "students may not be able to read or do math real well"? REAL WELL? Apparently BOB BARR is the one in need of a fucking grammatical education. The students may read or do math well. The students may not read very well. The students are not proficient in reading and arithmetic. "Real well" is a Southern slang term that is not grammatically correct. Where the fuck does he get off telling other states how to conduct their educational systems when he can't put together a sentence?

And since when do people who have sex or take contraceptives become stupid? I'd love to see some kind of causational link proven on that one.

i might be wrong...but i think that bob barr is also the lovely human being who tried to pass legislation that would not allow pagans to serve in the millitary...i am not surprised at this...but still angered none the less...

i really wonder how much of congress takes him seriously anymore...

while i would hope that parents of children 14 and younger would know if their kids are having sex and would TALK to them about birth control and such, i think that at least this way, it the school teaches them about safe sex that they would at least be safe. apparently some people would rather their kids stay ignorant and not be safe?

"Portland's middle school students may not be able to read or do math real well, but they'll be able to tell you all about condoms and birth control pills."

Yeah Bob, it's SO much better that they drop-out of school altogether and are knowledgable about diapers, formula, welfare, and incontinence.

I just don't get it. Even if these kids did decide to wait until marriage to have sex, wouldn't they still need this information? I'm married and after I said my vows I didn't magically know everything there is to know about sex!

All right, Barr. Break it down for me. Find me some stats comparing the academic achievements of kids who receive full, frank sex ed and access to contraceptives as compared to their peers who are kept in ignorance and have to rely on their ability to pull out in time. I have a sneaking suspicion that those stats won't say what he wants them to, though.

D'apostrophe, you obviously haven't been drinking enough of the right cool-aid...

But can you even imagine what the practical point to his little tiff is?

Should we start having them write essays in sex ed? Would that make him feel better, that they were writing "real well" about all the choices that his camp want to take away from them?

Memo to Bob Barr: It's a lot easier to learn math and English when you're not breast feeding a newborn. That is all.

"Even if these kids did decide to wait until marriage to have sex, wouldn't they still need this information?"

I think we're talking about a man who feels that the only thing one needs to know about sex is that it makes babies. And birth control? Phsaw! It's only for those whorish, slutty women, not good, Christian housewives *shudder*

"And since when do people who have sex or take contraceptives become stupid? I'd love to see some kind of causational link proven on that one. "

Agreed. If being a sexually active teenager who knows about birth control is the cause of illiteracy, than all of those AP English classes that I recieved top marks in when I was in high school must have been a mistake on the part of the teacher.

This guys just reminds me of someone like Dobson from Focus on the Family. He has the ridiculous attitude and feels that he has some kind of authority that allows him to make shit up withot any real research or knowledge behind it and the really sad part is.....People believe it. You know ther eis some family somewhere that saw this and was like "see, I knew sex ed was a bad idea"

side note on Dobson: my in laws are conservative and sent us a book he wrote on marriage. My husband was reading and looked up at me and was "how much do you want to bed that his poor wife never had an orgasm"
He now also teases me because women are "supposed to make hemselves attractive for their husband". he'll be like. "it's 7:15 am, where the hell is your make up"

Also if you want to read some other fucked up sex advice, go to the focus on the families website and look at their girls' magazine. they have an article for a guy bascally telling girls they need to cover themselves up bcaue guys can't help themselves and it's up for the women to control the system cause everyone wants to marry a virgin
sorry for my rant, Barr is an ass too :)

That's the same kind of logic that whacked-out politicians use when they say America needs illegal immigrants because they've aborted a huge chunk of their workforce. Take one inflammatory issue (failing schools) plus another inflammatory issue (kids having sex!) connect them to each other, and -- ta-dah -- you have yourself a wildly irrational argument.

I'm not completely sure how I feel about the whole thing. Correct me if I'm outdated, but when I was in middle school, relationships consisted of "going out" with someone, hearing from a friend of a friend that they were TOTALLY flirting with that popular girl last weekend, dumping him and going out with his best friend. I don't think most 12-15 year-olds are emotionally ready to handle the drama and the consequences that can come with having sex.

That said, if they really want to have sex, a lack of available contraceptives isn't going to stop them. Plus, a lot of middle schoolers have painful/heavy/irregular cycles (not to mention acne) that can be helped enormously by taking the pilll. So I think it definitely needs to be made available. But so does some good, frank, honest education.

EyeHeartNY, I grew up in a tiny Canadian town with less than a thousand students in the high school and I know a handful of the girls got pregnant.

I also know from observation that what happened in my high school is now happening in junior high, so while they may not be mature enough to make the decision well, they're still deciding to fuck anyway. Because they know they can make the decision, and they're young, so they don't have the best decision-making skills. (I believe it's because the part of the brain that develops impulse control--the precortex, IIRC--isn't fully developed at that age.)

Now, in theory, if we could remove kids' even knowing the concept of sex entirely, they wouldn't have the decision to make. But informatin is like a virus, and the genie is already out of the bottle, and is that a mixed metaphor?

Anyway. Sex education should consist of, "You shouldn't do this until you're older. However, if you do, here's how you can avoid getting pregnant and/or dying."

Except, y'know, more detailed.

Eh, I think they should have a requirement that you have to pass Health to graduate high school, and to pass Health you have to demonstrate in a practical that you can apply a condom properly. After my (relatively inclusive) "sex ed" training I knew what kinds of birth control existed, but not what needed a prescription, what was OTC, or what they cost. I had no idea what STDs were more likely to happen based on the type of sex, and I didn't understand the whole "6 months then retest" thing, either. Hell, I didn't even know that friction was a factor in arousal until it was explained to me, in college. Even the good sex ed programs need work.

Half the time parents don't even know this stuff themselves-- how many parents do you know that can tell their kid how much each form of birth control costs and it's tested effectiveness, as well as what each STD is? Nothing gets a kid to not have sex like any description involving "oozing sores and burning pee" and their genitalia. Especially with photographic accompaniment.

If being a sexually active teenager who knows about birth control is the cause of illiteracy . . .

Actually, I think NOT knowing about birth control is a kind of illiteracy . . .

"Real well"!? "Real well"!?

*gasp, gasp, gasps; reminds self to breathe*

Thank you, Aspendarlin, for ripping apart his expression far more eloquently than I could.

I agree with you, Basiorana, most sex ed is not nearly comprehensive...perhaps because all the funding is going towards the "for god sakes women keep your legs closed" camp.

My friends and I were self-educated through asking questions at planned parenthood. I remember one my mom was like remember condoms are not 100% effective and I was like no they're more in the 80-90% range when used correctly while the pill is around 99% effective when used right....her mouth just dropped open...there were kids in my high school that used the pull out method because a condom broke on them once..we all wondered why they didn't go to planned parenthood...but that knowledge just wasn't well known

Why should these women not be able to access the same medical care and preventative methods as other people in their school?

Joyinrevolt--because they're not "women." They're girls. They're CHILDREN. I do actually think that it's better for sexually active girls to be on contraceptives than to get pregnant, but I also know that a lot of the adult women I know can't seem to take their BC pills every single day in a month. Do you really think a twelve-year-old will remember on her own? Also, the child might be on other prescription drugs that are contraindicated with the Pill. Like antibiotics. Are these girls going to know and understand that? Of course not, and if they're not getting all their prescription medication in the same place, neither will a pharmacist.

I don't know what the answer to this problem is, but acting as if these middle school girls are the same as adult women isn't it.

BluePencils, they're not just picking up pills like candy--they're going to an actual health clinic. Why would you assume that that prescribing nurse/doctor at the clinic wouldn't do something as basic as ask about other medical conditions and medications, and provide them with the appropriate information about antibiotics?

hy would you assume that that prescribing nurse/doctor at the clinic wouldn't do something as basic as ask about other medical conditions and medications, and provide them with the appropriate information about antibiotics?

Yes, the doctor or nurse would ask, but who are they asking? A twelve-year-old girl who's going to say, "I dunno..." or just lie because she doesn't know, doesn't care, and doesn't want to mess up getting her BC. As I said, they're not adults. There is probably the rare kid who can handle this stuff. But I know I wouldn't have been able to, and I was an extremely bright and personable girl.

I'm not against this. It's just a very complex topic that needs to be handled by people who have experience with children and young teens, not politicians.

Actually, by the time I hit puberty, I would have risked it enough to at least ask questions of my gynecologist, since it wasn't like my mother was in the room with me. All the explanation needed would have been that it was for my heavy periods and bad cramps.

Also, remember that there are lots of kids who take daily medication - whether it's an inhaler, or migraine medication, or whatever, and are perfectly fine remembering to take it - because that's their routine. Why do you think that a girl would be less likely to remember to take her contraceptive than, say, her anti-seizure medication?

BluePencils, you've brought this "young teens can't be trusted to take their pills regularly" argument up before, and every time you do, at least five people chime in with, "Hey, I was on the Pill as a young teen, and I managed to take it properly, thank you very much." Let me add my voice to that chorus.

Why do so many people think that a parent should know if a child is having sex? When I was that age, I walked to school, I went wherever I wanted at lunch, I went shopping or played pinball with friends. There was plenty of opportunity to do just about anything, if I'd wanted to. And unlike the regimented, closed-campus, school-bus style of schooling that seems so popular here in the states, my freedom taught me to be responsible for my own decisions.

Kids will act like stupid kids as long as we insist that they should. Trying to keep them locked down and "safe" will only lead, at least with some portion, to kids pushing at the barriers in hazardous ways - like having sex without considering consequences, and without asking about protection.

You want kids to stop acting foolish, give them some opportunities to mature. That includes giving them access to professional advice WITHOUT having to say to their parents, "um, I was thinking about having sex."

It's just a very complex topic that needs to be handled by people who have experience with children and young teens, not politicians.

I agree, but I also think that nurses and doctors who work at a clinic near or within a middle school probably have a great deal of experience working with children and young teens.

But yes, I must echo what BlueCat said--there are lots of kids who take daily meds already. I think they're no more likely to screw up birth control pills--especially if they're frightened of getting pregnant--than a 20-year-old.

HEY!

I *went* to a Portland Maine middle school 6 years ago! For three years I went to Lincoln - what the fuck is this guy talking about? There were like, one week in each sixth and eighth grade where one of my classes was replaced by sex ed. This guy must be smoking something. If there were a lot of kids getting it on (something that, in retrospect, actually does seem to make some sense), it certainly wasn't for overexposure to sexual education.

Also, there are lots of school districts where students show poor performance - unless Mr. Barr believes these are all correlated entirely to sexual education replacing standard math and English, I don't see how he can prescribe it for this specific case just to support his agenda of sexual illiteracy among youth.

HEY!

I *went* to a Portland Maine middle school 6 years ago! For three years I went to Lincoln - what the fuck is this guy talking about? There were like, one week in each sixth and eighth grade where one of my classes was replaced by sex ed. This guy must be smoking something. If there were a lot of kids getting it on (something that, in retrospect, actually does seem to make some sense), it certainly wasn't for overexposure to sexual education.

Also, there are lots of school districts where students show poor performance - unless Mr. Barr believes these are all correlated entirely to sexual education replacing standard math and English, I don't see how he can prescribe it for this specific case just to support his agenda of sexual illiteracy among youth.

While I'm all for sex education and access to birth control, there is still the issue of a child taking medication without her parents' knowledge. The problem, as far as I'm concerned, isn't really whether or not she can remember to take it, but what it will do to her body. There are side effects to oral contraceptives that many practitioners don't bother telling full-grown women, let alone children. If your daughter suddenly developed OCD, depression, a blood clot or high blood pressure and you didn't know why and her regular doctor wasn't in the loop, either, do you think this girl (who got birth control in secret) is going to 'fess up when it's affecting her health? Probably not. Would a thirteen year-old even know the signs of high blood pressure?

All that said, I'd be positively thrilled if there was a mandatory sex ed class, required to graduate with no exceptions for religious objection.

Bob isn't concerned with middle schoolers getting birth control and therefore having sex- he just wants to keep all those GIRLS virgins; this from his article "while thankfully not yet doling out birth control pills and implants to 11-year old girls as in Maine..."

way to be a sexist jack ass.

This is what certain f*ckface members of the GOP (our President included) feel at liberty to do...excuse themselves from reality, pull some ridiculous batshit our of their asses, and b/c its delivered with a smirk/sneer or yelled at us from a soapbox, they don't NEED basic logic or anything to back them up...

How the FUCK do people like this become political leaders and judges?