Sometimes we talk about why we're importing so many people in our workforce.

Because the heads of the industries that employ them aren't willing to pay the minimum wage and benefits and safety measures that legal residents could command?

Oh, no, right. Sorry. It's women's fault again.

I love how Republicans seem to think that immigrants sneak in here and take jobs, but it never occurs to them that big industries employing them are violating all kind of labor laws, and that if we shut down the demand, we'd shut down the supply. Because God forbid we go after the big campaign spenders.

And these people never seem to stop and wonder how many woman-hours would be removed from the workforce if we couldn't get abortions. There would be the women forced to bear and raise kids, the women who go septic and have to be treated or die from illegal abortions. We are actually part of the workforce, you know.

I really freaking hate it when political candidates talk about immigrants in the American work force, as though this is a new, surprising phenomenon. The U.S. has relied on immigrant labor to build the country since the 1800s! No one remembers the waves of European immigration bringing people here to work on canals, railroads, etc.?

Of course, I know that the reason this is such a big deal is because many of the immigrants today have brown skin. Sigh. What a depressing mindset to have.

Well, to be fair, those same politician would probably have been the ones inveighing against the dirty Irish and the smelly Italian and the cunning Jewish immigrants back in the day. Anti-immigrant posturing is as old as this country itself.

Gretchen, immigrants were just as huge a deal back then as they are now. The Irish were treated horribly in Boston, and the Germans were treated horribly in Cleveland, the Polish in Chicago, etc. This white solidarity stuff is pretty recent, and it's mostly because there's not a huge influx of cheap-labor immigrants from those countries now for "real Americans" (hah) to feel threatened by. Illegal immigration was controversial a hundred years ago, too: the slur "wop" was an abbreviation for "without papers." Just a historical footnote...

Oh, Huckabee. Blaming illegal immigration on legal abortion is beyond absurd.

EG, you beat me to it! Hehe!

And these people never seem to stop and wonder how many woman-hours would be removed from the workforce if we couldn't get abortions.

Which actually comes to another point, which is that these are the same people who want to take women out of the workforce and put them back in the kitchen. That would result in the US being a lot more than a million workers short.

And in any case, there are actually 20 million immigrant workers in the US, so it's not like 1 million people would make that much of a dent. Not to mention that a woman who has 2 children and one abortion wouldn't necessarily have 3 children if she hadn't had the abortion... maybe she would have stopped at two regardless.

Am I thinking too hard about a statement that's obviously idiotic?

The U.S. has relied on immigrant labor to build the country since the 1800s!

Actually, the original "immigrant" labor force was totally cheap in that they were unpaid! The American colonies were completely supported economically by having unpaid bond servants and slaves to do a huge percentage of the labor.

I also really dislike the undercurrent of xenophobia and isolationism that is so tightly connected to many anti-abortion/pro-life arguments. I know not ALL people who are against abortion are xenophobic, but if you look at the way people talk in the quiverfull movement, for example, it's a blatant argument not just for having babies, but having the right kind of babies.

(Bitch magazine had a nice article on this as well, but their full text isn't online).

All Huckabee is saying is that the if all of those pregnancies weren't terminated, they would have grown up poor, got menial work paying minimum wage, and they would have stayed poor. Hmmmm. Perhaps that's why women get abortions, so their kids, the future generation, can have a better life.

Yeah I'm pretty confused how we went from point A to point B here...

I don't think what happened was that there were SOOO many abortions, we just DIDN'T have enough people in the country, and therefore not enough people in the workforce, so we had to have immigrants come fill the jobs that we just COULDN'T find anyone anyone else to fill. Like EG said, immigrant workers are hired because big companies can exploit them, give them shitty pay, and no benefits.

and really, I mean there is no ONE cause of anything this complicated...but out of ALL the potential reasons for an increase in immigrant workers...in what world would something like this occur to someone? Do you think this dude truly believes this (which would be demented)? Or that it's just another half-assed pathetic attempt to bring abortion into the picture and put the blame on women

Yeah I'm pretty confused how we went from point A to point B here...

I don't think what happened was that there were SOOO many abortions, we just DIDN'T have enough people in the country, and therefore not enough people in the workforce, so we had to have immigrants come fill the jobs that we just COULDN'T find anyone anyone else to fill. Like EG said, immigrant workers are hired because big companies can exploit them, give them shitty pay, and no benefits.

and really, I mean there is no ONE cause of anything this complicated...but out of ALL the potential reasons for an increase in immigrant workers...in what world would something like this occur to someone? Do you think this dude truly believes this (which would be demented)? Or that it's just another half-assed pathetic attempt to bring abortion into the picture and put the blame on women

WOnder when he will start blaming women's suffrage for the problems beseting the world?

Allytude, Ann Coulter has already blamed women's suffrage for Democratic victories, so I think it's certainly out there.

In any event, if there had been no abortion, and every aborted fetus had grown into an employable person, what would the welfare state expenditures look like? I mean, the histrionic types on the right freaking out about immigrant labor are talking about how approximately 12 million immigrant workers would not be needed. But if every aborted fetus were carried to term since 1973, and if you include every born person from such forced birth above the age of 18 as a person in the work force, well, that's everyone born through 1989, or 16 million people.

So there would be 4 million more unemployed people, all of whom are completely dependent on the government, because there aren't any jobs to be had. There would also be over 16 million people who are un- or under-insured, because immigrant labor jobs have little to no benefits. Companies hiring these people also would have to charge more for their products, creating inflation and possibly more offshoring. There would be 18 million more children who have little to no health insurance and who would increase the populations of the already overtasked public education system. There would be some number of children who would be born to the 16 million people over 18, and they would need public assistance as well.

So, fine, Huckabee -- let's argue against abortion on the basis that Americans could do the work that currently is done by immigrants. And then we can start to talk about how the federal government's expenditures are so much less than they would otherwise be for Medicaid, public assistance payments and public education, okay? And then we can talk about the reduction in crime rates that are positively correlated to legalized abortion and how we're all made safer from crime by abortion being legal, okay?

Grr.

Is Huckabee serious? Modern, relatively unregulated capitalist economies (and the corporations in them) like ours are really good at finding the cheapest labor they can get.

They are really poor at employing everyone, especially at a remotely decent wage. (Unemployment stats. underestimate our 'surplus' labor as they don't count underemployed or those who haven't found work in 6 months or more or those who don't officially report being unemployed.)

Does Huckabee really think that our companies use illegal immigrant labor and outsource jobs oversees because we don't have an additional million people unemployed here?

Sorry -- I did some horrifying math up there while distracted. Serves me right for posting while taking calls at work! D'oh!

And in any case, there are actually 20 million immigrant workers in the US, so it's not like 1 million people would make that much of a dent. Not to mention that a woman who has 2 children and one abortion wouldn't necessarily have 3 children if she hadn't had the abortion... maybe she would have stopped at two regardless.

Spot on. It's also possible that, because of legal abortion, a woman may go on to have more children. Here's my thinking:

Jane is 19 years old and a sophomore in college when she gets pregnant. If forced to continue the pregnancy, she can't continue her degree program, and therefore doesn't get the job or the income she wanted. Because of this, she can't afford to have more than that one child. Otherwise, if she delayed having children, she could have three or four, even.

Anyway, on the original argument, Huckabee's an idiot because it's more about poverty in Mexico and opportunity for relative wealth in the US pulling people from one country to the other. It's not that there aren't enough people for the jobs in the US, it's that there aren't enough jobs for the people in Mexico.

Misogyny at its worst. Huckabee DEFINITELY hates women.

I read (on CNN, of all places) that Chuck Norris has officially endorsed Huckabee.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/10/22/martial-arts-tv-star-picks-presidential-candidate/

(sorry for the long URL, it never seems to work when I try to do a text link)

What a crackpot idea! How are Republicans able to put out such crap in public?! When youre running for office, youre supposed to demonstrate competence, not idiocy! Jeez, how opposite the Republicans are from the mainstream American! I see an easy way to create a backlash against them, particularly with their growing uninhibited expression of their anti-contraceptive stances.

I see an easy way to create a backlash against them, particularly with their growing uninhibited expression of their anti-contraceptive stances

That is not the only way to create a backlash against them, Gopher. Tell the talking heads in the meida about the millions of American women (and billions of women across the globe) they slaughter annually with their anti-choice laws. Like I did on my blog (link below):

http://aikenareaprogressive.blogspot.com/2007/10/mike-huckabee-is-obvious-woman-hater.html

Please feel free to call these people out on their heinous views - the best way to do this is to attend local and/or state government meetings, you know - the kind where they have public forums - and then say, "Senator so-and-so, could you please give me an explanation for your position on x, y and z that is not based in racism, xenophobia, and/or misogyny?" It's essential that when the trolls come out to talk in our government, that others of us speak up. Preferably, directly to said trolls. Maybe someone will eventually get a message.

annajcook, you've terrified the crap out of me with that Quiverfull link. I'm going to be feeling sympathetic pain in my vaginal region all damn weekend!!