Yay for the shoutout to Rusty at Why I Hate DC! It's one of my favorite blogs because, truly, I hate DC. No, hate isn't a strong enough word. I loathe and despise DC. I can't wait to leave this godforsaken place.

/venting

*projectile vomit*

the new york times had an article about the gray rape deal yesterday as well. i promised myself that i would stop reading the comments to any articles or blog posts outside of feministing, because the toxic levels of stupidity give me heartburn but sometimes i can't help myself. i must have written at least three times that women who go out and get drunk do not grant a blanket license to anyone who want to fuck them.

What about Lesbian Bars? Oh, wait, I guess Stepp doesn't believe that "ladies" can be lesbians.

As a straightish chick, I enjoy going to Lesbian Bars precisely because I won't have to deal with the whole losers hitting on me scene. Have a drink, listen to some live music at times, and just hang out with friends. Bars aren't only for hooking up...though I'm not slut shaming either.

Oh wow I wish I'd been there too. It is so gratifying to know someone is giving "LSS" a piece of their mind. Since the very first time I spotted a review of Unhooked in the Washington Post I've wished I could do the same.

Also love that blog... I hate DC too, I got out in February!

btw i'm also glad someone called her out on this nonsense. kudos to the folks at ihatedc!

For what is worth, and I know I'm gonna express the most unpopular idea EVER, I don't think ANYONE belongs in bars. Men, women, cat or dog.

The fact that no one seems to be able to relate to other person without involving alcohol in the process AND the fact that no one seems to pick up on this have ALWAYS amazed me.

What's with the notion that only those people go to bars? (people looking to get wasted & hook up) Or the notion that all bars are skeezy dens of sin?
My boyfriend and I go to bars together sometimes. And neither of us is looking to get laid by anyone other than each other. I go to bars with my girlfriends sometimes too. Am I not allowed to go because I'm not in the market for a date?

I don't get that either. I actually go to bars to play trivia, and I drink tea the whole time. Occasionally someone will offer to buy me a drink, but no one gives me any crap for not drinking. Perhaps I just have an unusually ice local?

People in my and my husband's graduate programs met up in bars all the time to have a beer and talk about classes and writing. It was a social thing, not a hook-up thing. People go to bars for all kinds of reasons.

Expanding from what I wrote above...

Often, professors would go to the bar and have a drink with grad students as well. These profs were almost always male, and the comaraderie formed during the informal talks we had at the bars seemed to affect who was chosen to teach certain courses. If women had been barred from participating in these gatherings because we didn't belong in bars then we would have been at a social disadvantage in the department and it would have been less likely that we could have garnered the positions, recommendations, and other perks that go with having a close working relatioship with mentors in the department.

Relationships are often solidified over an informal beer that can affect the course of a person's academic or professional career. Women don't belong in that atmosphere? No, I'm not going to accept that.

I graduated from college 20 years ago. There's nothing LSS describes that wasn't going on way back when I was an student. And you know what? Most of it was great fun. Birth control was cheap and available, and we were all too ignorant, naive and foolish to be worried about diseases. Somehow or other, we managed to slut about for years and still go on to marry and have satisfying lives.

Of course, we all had mad baking skills, too.

The fact that no one seems to be able to relate to other person without involving alcohol in the process AND the fact that no one seems to pick up on this have ALWAYS amazed me.

That's just a gross generalization, Mary. Not everyone who's in a bar can't relate. Alcohol has been a part of our culture for thousands of years, people like to fucking drink. They drink at home, they drink at tailgates, they drink at family reunions, they drink at baseball games. While some people do rely on alcohol to help them loosen up and be more social that doesn't speak for a majority of the population. Bars are social places where you go, catch a buzz, shoot the shit and have fun. There are people who can handle their liquor and those who can't, but you can't go around saying that because a few people do that means everyone has trouble relating.

I read this book back in March and found it pretty unremarkable. However, this ongoing b.s. about grey rape got me to revisit it. Thanks to you and others for keeping the spotlight on this issue.

I just posted over at my place my longer thoughts on Unhooked. I hope you'll all check it out.

Stepp reveals well that rather than change the rules of the game, young women are joining or beating men at their own game, i.e., men “are still expected to be players� but now women are players right alongside them. What she then fails to acknowledge is that the socialization of women to not be players (but rather nurturing, committed and subordinate), and the double-standards we have of single women who are freely sexually active, remain much stronger cultural phenomena that women internalize than this alleged newfound freedom to bed hop.

These young women are battling the mixed messages of Stepp’s and subsequent generations about equity and empowerment, not to mention being totally weighed down by the impossible standards we’ve set for women now. These women should implicitly know how to manage their hormones and men, and thus successfully navigate the sexual minefield that is teen love (hell, all love), even though they should not open their legs or even make time for relationships lest they misstep on their way up the gendered, hetero-normative ladder of 1) education, 2) career, 3) man, 4) family. We operate in an overall environment in which women’s bodies are some sort of prize or possession for men that women must protect until the time is right to surrender, albeit with much more relaxed rules and penalties on pre-marital sex.

The women Stepp profiles are operating within a pretty constrained set of choices. Fool around or stay abstinent? Enter into a relationship or graduate and go to law school? Get serious with a guy or keep up with my peers? This is the landscape Stepp details, as she then goes on to encourage women to feel free to enact a different, dissonant set of choices to still ultimately get to #3 (man) and #4 (family). This is hardly emancipating, instructive, empowering or even relevant advice from the author."

This argument reminds me of over a hundred years ago when women weren't allowed into public "male" spaces unless they were "morally questionable," thus confining women to their homes.

Picking up dates at bars does happen, just like it happens at the store, the gym, school, work, the library, etc. etc. I guess women shouldn't be out in these "males" spaces either.

Lets see.. I usually go to the bar to hang out with freinds, get a drink with my boyfreind when we are feeling rich, or even to get a drink with my mom after seeing a play. Seriously morally questionable behavior. Clearly I am giving full clearance for anyone around to have sex with me because I am there.

Ugh.

1. There's a fundamental difference between legal rights ("choices") and what you think people should do, as a practical matter. We have the right to make our own crappy choices, but it's hardly a vindication of feminism to wreck our lives. Ms. Sessions-Stepp did not contradict herself.

2. The men might be the same. They might not be the same. They might be the same, but think differently of you if they met you in a library than blitzed in a bar. They might be looking for hookups in a bar and feel weird about getting serious with the party girl but feel better about asking library girl to dinner.

Not beyond the realm of possibility. Not saying that it's likely, probable, or describes most people - just not so far-fetched that she deserves ridicule for it.

I speak as someone who gets groped nearly every time she walks into a bar. I would like to go to bars, hang out, have a few drinks, but it's just a PITA.

Works for some women, though - just not for all of us, all the time. That is Ms. Sessions-Stepp's point.

Not beyond the realm of possibility. Not saying that it's likely, probable, or describes most people - just not so far-fetched that she deserves ridicule for it.

The hell she doesn't and so do you. Speaking as someone who's catcalled and groped walking down the street in full, body covering exercise sweats, the environment doesn't make one damn bit of difference, just because you're in a library doesn't automatically make a guy think more highly of you, depending on the guy he could be just as likely to look at you lecherously and want to fuck and run and the same goes if he meets you in a grocery store or even church. Just because there are bright lights and no loud music doesn't make a man pious.

Works for some women, though - just not for all of us, all the time. That is Ms. Sessions-Stepp's point.

That's NOT her point at all, she doesn't think ANY woman should be in a bar regardless, simply because women have vaginas and vaginas should be off baking or doing any other "non masculine" activities. I'm sure if given half the chance she'd probably try and get women to stop cursing, as it's one of those vulgar "male" activities.

Choice is choice, period.

Speaking as somebody who's spent a great deal of her life in libraries, I gotta ask--what is it with this idea that you can easily meet your mate--or even a fun fling--in the library? Dude, when I am in the library, I am working, not wanting to be bothered by random people. That is the beauty of the library--it's meant to be a quiet place where other people can't bother you.

Random side note and comment to EG: Has anyone else experienced some lame guy coming up to talk to you when you are reading a book in a public place? This has happened to me and one of my freinds and seriously drives me up the wall. If I'm reading, I'm obviously busy and not available to chat with random strangers. Seriously irks me hardcore. Sorry, totally off subject.

My God, yes, Marissa! It's like it's some kind of personal affront to men if a woman is sitting on a park bench reading a book. "I've seen you in the park before, and I'm 25 years older than you, but I've discovered Buddhist philosophy, and I can just tell that you'd like to put down the newest book by your favorite author in order to hear me tell you all about it."

I was once sitting on a park bench grading papers when this guy comes over and asks if he can sit down on the bench.

This is always a bad sign: whenever a man asks me for permission to do something that he has every right to do--sit on a public bench, sit down on a subway seat--he seems to think when I say in a monotone, without making eye contact "Sure," that what I really mean "By all means, feel free to interrupt what I'm doing in order to hit on me, and ignore all social signals that I am sending that I would like to be left alone."

So he sits down, lights a cigarette, and says "What are you doing?"

I say, looking up only for a split-second in order to make sure that he's not threatening, again in a total montone, "Working."

"Oh. Are you a student?"

"No."

"Are you writing something?"
"Isn't it a nice day?"
"What is it you've got there?"

Did I not just say that I am working? Why are you continuing to talk to me? I am ignoring you. I'm not even being polite.

On a train, too. I'm reading a book, and this older man sits down next to me, and starts telling me about the white seagull he saw shortly after his father died many years ago, which started him down the path to spiritual rebirth, and did I believe in God? And when I said, as pleasantly as I could, "I'm not in the mood for talking right now," he said "Oh, I understand. You'd rather listen." "No," I said crossly, "I'd rather read." And then he was incredibly offended and snitty. Did I ask you about your seagull spirituality? I did not. Do I sit down next to total strangers who are reading and start talking to them about the history of atheism in my family? I do not. Why? Because I have some goddamn social skills.

It's like men pay so little attention to women's social signals, that nothing short of "Fuck off" gets through, but then, when we are more direct, they act as though we've spontaneously kicked them in the balls.

And thank you for giving me an excuse to go off on that rant.

The non-profit that I work for was tabling at this event. Our community resources manager was there and inquired about LSS's research and lack of study on same-sex couples. I must say that I think some complaints/concerns should be directed to Arlington County and Arlington County Public Libraries who invited her to speak. I am all for healthy debate and I definitely think that its easier to let people sink their own ships with their own words, BUT I definitely think the community should speak up about on who, county funds are spent on. Especially which this event was co-sponsored by Arlington Role Models, a mentoring group in the community. If they think LSS is an appropriate speaker to partner with, I will certainly be questioning vote for Walter Tejada (Democrat Arlington Board Member,he founded/funded the creation of the mentor group)

The non-profit that I work for was tabling at this event. Our community resources manager was there and inquired about LSS's research and lack of study on same-sex couples. I must say that I think some complaints/concerns should be directed to Arlington County and Arlington County Public Libraries who invited her to speak. I am all for healthy debate and I definitely think that its easier to let people sink their own ships with their own words, BUT I definitely think the community should speak up about on who, county funds are spent on. Especially which this event was co-sponsored by Arlington Role Models, a mentoring group in the community. If they think LSS is an appropriate speaker to partner with, I will certainly be questioning vote for Walter Tejada (Democrat Arlington Board Member,he founded/funded the creation of the mentor group)

My parents, who have been married nearly 30 years and attend church every Sunday, met in a bar. :)

My husband and I, who have been married for quite a while and have a very stable and happy relationship, had our first date and kiss in a club called 'Perversion.'

EG, there are no words to explain the amount of "WORD" that should go for your post. I have exactly the same problem.

Working on story notes? They want to chat. Reading a book? They want to chat. Sending a text? They want to chat. Sitting at a slot machine having an in-depth discussion with my mom (who's sitting on the other side of me)? They still want to chat.

No amount of mono-syllabic, non-eye-contact response can dissuade them. No amount of ignoring or pointedly doing something/talking to someone else can dissuade them. They have words of wisdom (or questionably cheesy pick-up), and dammit, you must hear them!

On a related note, does anyone know of a polite way to turn down a request for your name from someone who hasn't crossed the line (yet)? All I can ever think of is "My mother taught me never to talk to strangers," and that sounds a bit silly at twenty-eight.

Kimmy, the only thing I've ever been able to think of is "Excuse me" followed by immediately walking away. Which tends to make people angry and doesn't always work.

I've been harassed while reading in almost every context except libraries (thank goodness). To be fair to men, I've also had trouble with women in lunchrooms wanting to chat and taking my book as an invitation to talk to me. I think that a lot of people generally can't believe that other people actually prefer to read and/or think.

I feel the need to rant a little on this topic. My body has always, even before puberty, been the subject of internal (oh they show it with looks and the body language) and external conversations. Case and point, I was reading a book while waiting for the bus once when this man walked by, turned around and walked back, and said I was very ugly. Caught me off-guard and didn't have a comeback. Distraught, I went for a little walk later on in the day and passed this other man who said "you need a smile gorgeous." Needless to say, their comments and their tones got me pissed. Two men, two different opinions on me, and all I wanted to do for the rest of the day was go off on the next fucker. Granted, #2 was nice, but why the hell did I owe him a smile? Why should I have the burden to appease stangers?

This other one happened a few weeks ago - again at a stop reading when some guy sits next to me (thankfully, I don't usually get those "can I sit?") and says hello, I mumbled it back, and he turns to me and says, "I saaaid hello." I looked at him questioningly in a what?-are-you-god's-gift-to-women? way, and he got so angry that I was ignoring him that he left abruptly with "well, I was just resting so byyyye!" The fucking nerve.

As for avoiding men who haven't crossed the line I honestly don't know what to tell you since I usually mumble a short phrase and ignore/walk away to the lovely comebacks of "that's ok, I like to fuck bitches too!"

And as for this whole gender segregation that this lady is arguing for, honestly, I want to bang my head against the wall. On what basis does she call herself a feminist if she insists that women don't belong in certain spaces? What's effed up is that she actually has an audience and unfortunately seems to be having some sort of influence on this and the 'gray rape' nonsense.

It makes me sad that women who actually uphold feminist values shun the label, leaving it up for grabs by the likes of this one who appropriate it and set us back one too many battles.

Gothchiq's anti-butthead tactics:

Tell the men who want to chat that you are sick and very contagious. Cough and snort grossly. Say "Oh, dear, I don't want to make you sick" and scuttle away from them while coughing and snorting grossly. Works great!

"What's your name?"
"Dementia. What's yours?"

"You're ugly!"
"You're an asshole. Goat fucker."

Get mashed on by asshats in bars? Switch to gay bars. I'm bi, so I have memberships at several... anyway, go to gay bars. You will be safe, and the music will be better. The dance floor will probably also be better.

Especially, wear black and go out on goth night. We don't grind on people on the dance floor, we don't grab... and we certainly will not say nasty things about your figure or your clothing.

Speaking as someone who's catcalled and groped walking down the street in full, body covering exercise sweats, the environment doesn't make one damn bit of difference

I disagree a little on that. At certain kinds of bars (the ones charmingly referred to as "meat markets" in my city) harassment is much more normal and accepted than on the street. I've never had a guy come up from behind, grab my hips, and rub himself all over my ass on the street, you know? But it happens more than once every time I go to the bar without a male companion. And there are guys who will consider a girl met in a bar good enough to have sex with, but not good enough to bring home to mom. There's a mentality that any girl who lets herself be picked up in a bar doesn't deserve any respect.

Of course, that still leaves the question of why the answer is for the women to stay home from bars rather than for the men to stop being sexist assholes.

So if you aren't supposed to meet in a bar- where the hell are you supposed to meet? I'm an engineer and I met my girlfriend in a bar. I don't have a huge social circle of friends since I graduated from college, very few of my coworkes are single, female and my age, and the friends of friends route leaves you with very limited options. What if you're just not interested in dating anyone from that set of 20 people?

A bar is the lowest common demoninator for social interaction. Yeah, there are other activities you can engage in to meet people, but they're not designed for that purpose- why not choose the one that is?

Also, following up on what EG said, while going through single, post-college life, I realized this basic fact: the gym, or the library are very inappropriate places to meet women. If a girl is with her friends in a bar, it is far more likely that she would be interested to talk to you. It is just rude to presume that someone busy doing something else wants to meet you.

Yeah, sure, there are a lot of people with less than noble purposes in bars. But anytime you have a venue that is a really good option for meeting lots of people, that venue is going to attract lots of people just looking to hook up. The only way to prevent that is with upfront filtering. In my mind, you basically two options: the bar, or a dating service. Either you do the screening, or someone else does it.

Now I think the situation would be better if bars and alcohol were not so closely tied, but I'm afraid its just not possible to get away from alcohol in our society. Fact of the matter is, a few drinks makes it a lot easier to talk to strangers. I don't understand why people have such a problem with this fact. Nervousness is just a fact of life for 95% of us.