This happened recently with a very progressive couple I know - they had a hippy wedding in the woods and really aren't conformist, yet everyone involved seemed to think it was so charming that he'd asked her dad for permission. I've tried explaining to friends how furious this would make me, but they think I'm overreacting... I think sometimes it's seen as an easy way to earn some brownie points with the future father in law rather than a desire for 1950s gender roles - but it still makes my blood boil. I talked about it with my dad and he thought it was pretty stupid - he said if anyone tried asking him he'd tell them that he wasn't who they needed to be asking.

Charlie - It is pretty stupid. As you said, though, it can be a great way to earn brownie points with your future in-laws. Assuming it is strictly ceremonial (i.e. if he says no, you will still ask her) I don’t see the problem. The whole wedding process is ceremonial BS, why not throw this one in as well if it will improve the family relationship?

That link there needs a Step Eight: Get a Receipt.

What if, god forbid, her hymen is already all used up? You're going through all this wedding stuff for a pristine vagina, not some bargain barrel bride. Young gentlemen, make sure to get a copy of the father's policy on returns.

Joy - LOL!
Most wedding traditions are hideously sexist and this is one of them. Could the symbolism be any more obvious? Why shouldn't women ask their future mothers-in-law for permission as well? I wish people would cut it out because this shit matters. It perpetuates the notion that men are active & women passive. And of course that marriage is about the transfer of property between two men.

I've always told my parents that if some guy ever showed up on their doorstep, asking for their position to propose to me, they should turn him the hell down because if he's do that, he's sure not the guy for me, ha ha!

I'm not sure the "brownie points" explanation really covers it, because brides certainly need/want brownie points with future mothers-in-law also. I know a number of mothers who feel pretty invested in the wellbeing of their sons (and daughters). But this is never phrased as getting permission from mom, or even from both of the parents - it's just dad handing over his property.

Well, it does serve as a bit of future warning for what you're getting yourself in for, inlaw-wise. But I think you need to distinguish between two very different acts.

The first is the gross one: asking because it actually means something. Or (even worse) asking BEFORE you actually propose.

The second is less troublesome: Asking because it forces dear old Dad (who, like most fathers, probably thinks that nobody is "good enough" for his daughter) to buy in to the whole affair. If he says yes (and don't they all?) then cognitively he's just started supporting things.

And if he says no, then sheeeit--you get married anyway, and he doesn't get to come.

Why does her Dear Old Dad need to buy into the whole affair any more than his Dear Old Dad? Or either one of their Dear Old Moms?

The answer reveals that even this explanation is troublesome & sexist (because she's his property and he gets to decide who owns her next!).
That the woman's father's blessing is considered the be-all end-all is SEXIST.

Yikes! This is a feminist disaster. I was watching 'Alias' on dvd a few weeks ago, and the ass- kicking character Sydney Bristow's boyfriend asked her dad for permission to propose. He was killed shortly thereafter, so I felt bad for him, but damn he was living in the dark ages!

If I ever choose to marry, you can bet my man won't be asking anyone but me for permission! That is if I don't propose to him 1st!

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I would say that it really depends on context. The most recent example I know was a very nice "traditional" wedding officiated in English, Hebrew and Spanish by a milti-lingual Reform rabbi, after several years of the "young ones" living together. Parents clearly had to spend non-negligible amount, ca 100 guests in a NYC restaurant with a beatiful view.

I imagine that broaching the topic with the parents would have the form of a very polite and perhaps somewhat formal request/announcement.

As long as it has nothing to do with actually permitting the marriage, it seems harmless to me. Having a big wedding verges on idiotic, if you ask me, but as idiocies go, this is a very nice one.

This is one of the reasons I find weddings so annoying. Well, this and the fact that I've been to too many Christian weddings, and have had to sit through the 'man is the head of the family' speech too many times.

My husband and I didn't do any of that. We removed all mention of god or gods from our ceremony. We walked down the aisle together, arm in arm. Nobody gave me away. There was no veil over my face. Our ceremony lasted about ten minutes and then we all ate a great dinner. Anything more would have annoyed me way too much.

It was a celebration, and one of the greatest days of my life. But what we were really doing was making a public announcement that our private arrangement had also become a legal arrangement. Maybe that's an unromantic way to think of it, but a lot of the old-fashioned markers of 'romance' seem to require my public submission. If I'm going to do that, it's going to be a private sex game and nothing more... certainly not the order of my entire life.

Maybe it's an outdated custom, but I think it's sweet. I don't think it's really asking for "permission," it's asking for acceptance. It's showing that the feelings of the parents matter to the guy (both parents - yes, I do think the father AND the mother should be asked). It's a way of bringing the girl's parents in on a major life decision. It's just good taste, I think. I hope this doesn't mean I have to hand in my feminist card.

That entire practice makes me want to vomit several times. Same with "giving the bride away". Any person going to my parents to ask permission would get a tongue lashing from my mother and then from me. It may be a tradition but it stems directly out of a time when women were nothing more than property to be transferred. My father stopped making decisions for me when I turned 8, and even when he did make decisions for me, who I was going to marry was definitely NOT one of them.
EUCH!

Oh, I agree -- this is sickening. The very idea of having some man dictate, even symbolically, whether his daughter and I can marry sounds like a film scene set in a medieval castle. Moreover, if I were the woman's father and some young guy asked me for such "permission," I'd think he's a total suck-up. "Why are you asking me?" I'd tell him. "Her mother's the boss."

I think I'm out of the mainstream on these issues. I recently heard a guy and a woman exchanging stories about how both he and her boyfriend proposed -- ON ONE KNEE. That, too, prompted me to voice my displeasure. I'm married, and I try to treat my wife with the utmost respect (and she does the same for me), but I never pretend that I, the almighty male, have the power to coronate her -- that is sickeningly patronizing (I suppose lots of women and men like it). My wife and I went into our marriage as equal partners, and not because I decreed that it be so -- it just is.

My husband told my dad we wanted to get married before he and I bought a ring, but there was no asking for permission. It was more of a hey, guys, guess what we're going to do!

But, I got a ton of criticism before/during/after my wedding because my dad didn't "give me away." The best part was that HE didn't want to do it. He said he and my mom raised me to make my own decisions, and he didn't want to take that away from me at the beginning of my marriage.

My dad rocks.

I'm having a hard time picturing my dad in that conversation.

My parents often tell me not to waste time and money getting married unless I really really want to.

You know, I can understand wanting your future in-laws to like you. If you're going to be in a committed, theoretically lifetime relationship, it makes sense that you'd want to get in good with your significant others' parents. That being said...there's a huge difference between showing your in-laws that you really do love their daughter, and asking if it's okay that you marry her. I'm an adult, thank you very much, and I don't need my parents and FH to be making marital arrangements behind my back. What if Dad says no? Or what if Daddy says yes, great, but daughter has no intention of marrying this guy? Will her parents try to bully her into it because they approve? Too many of these wedding traditions are treated as charmingly old-fashioned, but they're old-fashioned for a reason - because they're dreadful.

like a lot of wedding traditions, i know a lot of people who think this is "cute", and i'm sure they mean well, but it's time to just let go, for everyone's good.

i'm pretty sure if some dude asked my dad for his permission/approval to propose, said dude would be laughed at for a long time.

I don't have an issue with the happy couple asking both parents (on both sides!) for their blessing. Not their permission. Parental buy-in is a nice thing. Blessings are a nice thing (if your religious, or even if you just think of them as someone giving their good wishes). "Permission" -- especially from my father, but actually, from my mother, too -- squicks me out. You want permission to marry me? Ask ME.

Has anyone seen any less gross alternatives to "giving the bride away" (like blessing v. permission)? Not that I'm getting married any time soon, but I suspect my dad will be hurt and not understand why I would never let him "give me away".

The more historical context you have for tradition, the weirder weddings seem.

I never understood this "asking dad for permission" thing. If you're old enough to get married, you're old enough to do things on your own terms. Unless you live in one of those states where you can get married at 14 or 15 as long as you have your parent's permission. Anyway, there's really no point in asking dad. It's the girlfriend's permission that matters. Right?

It's about respect, not about oppression. It's about respect, not really about asking permission.

I grew up in a place where people respected their elders and their traditions. When I ask someone to marry me, if their parents are even remotely tradition, I will certainly ask for "permission." If they said "no", I doubt it would be an issue.

Really, if you have a problem with that, you should talk to my mamma. Because, she told me it was the right thing to do. But, I wouldn't mess with her. And, I listen to my mamma (most of the time).

Really, is this an issue--or are you making it one?

I think to some people this may seem like just a cute gesture that does no real harm, but enough of these "traditions" create a social attitude that does affect women, treating them like property and second-class citizens. The whole "well that's the way it's always been" type argument doesn't hold up well, in my opinion.

I'm of the same mind, MD. I realize the bullshit of it, but I want it anyway. I think a lot of that came from my Dad being so sick and dying recently.

When I "got serious" was my now-husband, my dad asked if he was going to ask them (my parents) for permission to marry me. I replied, absolutely not, he knows better, I wouldn't be dating him if he was someone who would think about it and if he did I would break up with him immediately.

Needless to say, my husband did not talk to my parents :-)

Caietanus--if this is about respecting one's elders, why doesn't the bride ask the groom's mother for permission?

I think it is issues like this that make some women think "feminist" is a bad word. Why does chivalry have to contradict feminism?

Why is chivalry predicated on the notion of women being subservient property?

But don't you see a difference between asking for "permission" and asking for a blessing from the people who, in theory, love this woman the most and raised her?

And nothing is stopping the bride from asking the mother's permission, either. She can go right ahead and do it if she likes. Isn't that what feminism is about?

Hey, I don't care if my soon-to-be bride were to do it--provided she asks me to marry her and not the opposite.

In my situation, I'd be doing the asking and my folks would already know and, hopefully, on board.

Muchacha1, I was just about to talk about that scene in Alias. I was actually going to comment on how awesome the Victor Garber character's response was. He was very curt, cut straight through the pretense, and said something like, "I'm not going to be part of some cute anecdote you tell your children one day." Granted, the scene was meant to show Garber's character as an utter asshole, but I thought it was kick ass. I love him.

caietanus asked if this is really an issue? I think this Web site's host is trying to raise awareness of things we may not even think about where women historically have been, and are, regarded as second class citizens. I know you and the other responders view this custom as a matter of respect and not a bad thing. I would not ridicule people who regard this as a nice custom. But I honestly don't understand why it is making a come-back since it does, symbolically, treat the father as the head of the daughter's household, "in charge of" the daughter. I'm all for respecting fathers and for having them involved in their children's lives -- but on an equal plane with mothers. I am perfectly OK with a tradition of asking symbolic permission of both parents (although I could never bring myself to do that, either).

Is this a comeback?

Because, honestly, I've never seen it go away. Also, my GF fully expects me to (she told me) as she thinks it is just the right thing to do--you know, as MD said it "asking for a blessing from the people who, in theory, love this woman the most and raised her." But, I guess she is just a sheep. Bahhhh.

MD has hit the nail on the head. Thank you for your rationality.

Great thread- I told my current boyfriend years ago, that if he ever did anything like that, I would dump him immediately. And then laugh at him.

I think it is a disgusting practice. What does my dad have to do with my decision? I'm 30, not 14. I make my own decisions, because I am an adult.

Asking for their blessing, once you are already engaged, seems ok to me- it seems more like saying "hey, we are going to be married, and we want you to support this relationship." But that is completely separate from asking her father for permission.

I don't think this has anything to do with respect-it's all about power, and infantilizing women-cause ya know-we can't actually make our own decisions about who to marry!!! Thankfully we have our daddies to do that for us. Bleh. This whole "respecting your elders" idea just makes no sense in this situation. How is it respecting your elders to engage in a sexist tradition?

I don't actually want to get married, because I think it's just all so stupid, really.

I know my dad would have loved it if my husband had asked his permission to marry me, but the latter knew better than that. My father was upset that we had a civil ceremony, too -- not only was there no mention of God (husband and I are both atheists), but "I don't get to give you away." I told him that I wasn't property to be traded between people, which didn't go over well, but Dad knew that he could either stop complaining about it or not come to the wedding. To his credit, he shut up (not an easy thing for my very patriarchal father) and was perfectly delightful at and after the ceremony. Although I suspect that his good attitude may have been due to a rationalization that I was someone else's property/problem now...

Things like this make me love my boyfriend more and more every day. I mean, I still have to convince him that we can't just get married at the courthouse in our street clothes, because my mom would have a heart attack, but I'm so glad that he doesn't ever behave out of misguided nostalgia.

But it's soooo cute! How could this problematic?

I think it can all be summed up in one little line from step 5:

Put yourself in his place. How would you feel about entrusting your little girl's heart to another man?

I'm getting married in under a year. Do you know how many sexist practices and traditions there are to break down? We've covered asking the parents for marriage, taking the husband's name, giving the daughter away at the ceremony, father/daughter and mother/son dances, who stands up with whom, guarder throwing, and addressing the new couples as Mr. so-and-so and his new wife, Mrs. so-and-so.

My fiance is with me on all of them, but you'd be surprised how many waves are caused by breaking from wedding traditions causes, even with even the most liberal of relatives.

The switch that some in this thread have made from 'asking permission' to 'getting a blessing' is a cute feint, but that's not what we're talking about here. Getting our parents (moms and dads) to buy in to our relationships is sweet and fine. This article is talking about ASKING PERMISSION OF THE FATHER OF THE BRIDE. That's problematic for all of the reasons pointed out above. If you stick with the topic you'll be able to see why people find it disturbing.

“And nothing is stopping the bride from asking the mother's permission, either. She can go right ahead and do it if she likes. “
Um, no, she can’t. What is stopping her is that the groom’s family would certainly find that inappropriate and be freaked out. And because it’s just so ridiculous, he is a big boy! Oh, and if I had asked his parents they would have certainly said no, after having freaked out.

“Why does chivalry have to contradict feminism?�
Because chivalry = sexist traditions based on the assumption that women are, week, vulnerable, with an intellectual capacity little more than that of children, and should be treated as such. It should be obvious why such traditions are in contradiction to feminism.

Hee, Destra. It never occurred to me that the bride/father and groom/mother dances were sexist. I just always thought they were...icky.

So I made my husband ask my Dad to marry me and I've always regretted it. My husband ONLY did it because we knew it was going to save us a shit ton of grief - my Dad is a very intimidating Christian fundamentalist. Ben thought it was horse shit but understood how beholden I was to my Dad. We were 20 and 21 when we got engaged and after years of verbal and emotional abuse from my father I wasn't in a place yet where I was healthy enough to not give in to his demands. I can understand why some couples do it, knowing the kind fucked up relationship I had with my dad and how afraid I was to not have his approval.

Sighhhh. I need to move to Sweden.

http://www.thelocal.se/8571/20070921/

Oh, wait - I am not into the whole marriage thing.

Being a parent on the other side of this I have to say I would actually tell my daughter not to marry someone who came to ask permission from me or her father (this would also be after I laughed uproariously at him). You should be asking her.

I don't support legal marriage in any way either so my daughter is fully aware that if she wishes to go against her parents' values and actually get legally married, she and he are paying for it themselves. However, if grandma is still around at that point, I'm sure she'd pay for it as it would be the wedding she never got from me.

It's worth pointing out that not only is the idea of a revival just astonishingly backwards, it dates back to a time when American young men had *even less* say in the matter than the women they wished to marry.

Stephanie Coontz digs the dirt in "Marriage, A History" but the practice of asking the father was all part and parcel of courtship being *entirely* managed by the daughter's parents. In the days before telephone and cars, and especially before women worked outside the home, Coontz says young men pretty much had to wait for permission not only to marry but to see, speak to, and sometimes even correspond with. Not that the girl had much say either, of course, in who she might have "come calling."

At any rate the point being that reviving the custom isn't just small-p patriarchy, it's *large-P* Patriarchy!

My guess would be that with the cost of "One Perfect Day" weddings passing four years at Stanford, the custom is being revived because getting family help to pay for it all is no longer optional.

Also, in light of the increasing cost of the wedding-planner-industrial complex the surprise isn't that parents are getting dragged into it. I think the surprise is that people are putting so much more effort into it because marriage itself is becoming a lot less significant.

>>>Has anyone seen any less gross alternatives to "giving the bride away" (like blessing v. permission)?

My cousin had both her parents walk her down the aisle. The groom was also walked down the aisle by his mother (his father was deceased.) I think they also changed the language, so it wasn't "giving away" but something about offering blessings.

Vin, thanks for sharing your experience. I think that is a very important point to make-many women are still beaten down and so much under their fathers/parents control that they couldn't even imagine going against them.

Coleen- great point-that line is disturbing! Wowzah! I'm not a little girl, and ewwwww if my heart belonged to my dad. EWWWW!

My parents would LOVE us to get married and have babies and be just like everyone else in my family. BUT, they have accepted that I'm just not going to do that, and they just want me to be happy anyways, so they don't care.

"Has anyone seen any less gross alternatives to "giving the bride away" (like blessing v. permission)?"

As I said above, my husband and I walked down the aisle arm in arm, and nobody gave anyone away.

Another alternative I have liked in weddings I've seen is a moment when both the bride and groom went to each other's parents (moms and dads) and thanked them. It was very sweet and meaningful. I would have done it in my wedding if I had thought of it.

Asking the father's permission to marry his daughter is a sexist tradition and I'm sorry to see that it's still popular.

However, I think one of the reasons people cling to it is that it is one of the few wedding traditions that acknowledges that people other than the bridal couple are affected by the marriage. Our society tends to believe that a wedding is "all about" the couple getting married, which ignores the very understandable anxiety, feelings of loss or discomfort with change that the couple's families and friends are feeling. The families repress these feelings, and channel them into arguing about invitation fonts and napkin colors.

I think it would be healthy for both the bride and the groom to talk to each other's parents and acknowledge that they are affected by this marriage. Of course, it would be intimidating and uncomfortable to suddently have this intimate conversation with people you don't know very well. It's easier with a socially prescribed "tradition" and a script already provided.
The "asking permission tradition" gives social sanction to two men to have a conversation about a personal and emotional topic, a necessary conversation that probably wouldn't happen otherwise.

I agree with sgzax, it is possible for a man to talk to the parents first without it being a "permission" situation. I have always kind of hoped that my boyfriend would talk to my parents first and get some pointers on the most romantic way to propose. It would be a matter of respect in my father's eyes if my boyfriend were to announce his intent (not necessarily permission), and that small gesture makes for a lifetime of good will.

I believe that when you get married, it's an act of turning individuals into a whole big family, so in a way, I see it as the man proposing marriage to the whole family as well as to the girl. I wouldn't mind if I got asked first, though. That's what living in 2007 means.

I agree with sgzax, it is possible for a man to talk to the parents first without it being a "permission" situation. I have always kind of hoped that my boyfriend would talk to my parents first and get some pointers on the most romantic way to propose. It would be a matter of respect in my father's eyes if my boyfriend were to announce his intent (not necessarily permission), and that small gesture makes for a lifetime of good will.

I believe that when you get married, it's an act of turning individuals into a whole big family, so in a way, I see it as the man proposing marriage to the whole family as well as to the girl. I wouldn't mind if I got asked first, though. That's what living in 2007 means.

>>>Has anyone seen any less gross alternatives to "giving the bride away" (like blessing v. permission)?

My husband and I each walked in with both our parents to the beginning of the seating area, then our parents went on ahead. We each waited at the back while our parents took their seats, then walked down the aisle ourselves. It was a nice way to acknowledge our parents, but still let us walk in on our own, which was very important to me. We also insisted that anything I did, he did also. If I walked down the aisle, he walked down the aisle. If I was escorted by my parents, he was escorted by his parents.

As for the permission asking, my now-husband was raised in the south. He thought my parents would be offended if he didn't ask. Fortunately this issue came up well before we got engaged so I could inform him that my parents would be very offended if he DID ask.

I find the whole permission-asking thing to be offensive, but it doesn't push my angry feminist buttons like the whole name-change tradition does. Anyone who addresses me by Mrs. Hisname better be prepared for an angry tirade.

I expect anyone I marry to ask my dad (and my mom, she'd shit if she wasn't there) for permission. I also expect that if for whatever reason my dad said no, that the guy would ask me anyway and then tell me about it later (he is MY boyfriend after all). Its not really about ownership, its a sign of respect to the family your about to join. It just saying "Im making an effort to be a part of this family".

I expect anyone I marry to ask my dad (and my mom, she'd shit if she wasn't there) for permission. I also expect that if for whatever reason my dad said no, that the guy would ask me anyway and then tell me about it later (he is MY boyfriend after all). Its not really about ownership, its a sign of respect to the family your about to join. Its just saying "Im making an effort to be a part of this family".

To test the waters, I asked my future husband with a straight face if he were going to ask for my father's permission to marry me, and he said "why? I already have yours." My parents whole-heartedly gave us their blessing when we announced our intent to marry soon after.

"Why shouldn't women ask their future mothers-in-law for permission as well?"

I did, sort of. At first, we'd planned a huge, sexist white-dress wedding that not only could we not afford, neither of us liked. (Combined with a very stressful senior year of college, it also led to a mental breakdown on my part, which has been interpreted by various family members as "fear of commitment.") We ended up eloping in a civil marriage to the consternation (and out and out hatred) of several of our family members on both sides, including his father (who married the woman who he left his prior marriage for immediately after announcing our intention to marry, grr). We have been married for five months now and are still facing bullshit accusations of "cutting ourselves off" and "eloping only to hurt the family." He is the oldest child of the two oldest children, and as such a great many people in his family think they "own" a piece of him and contributed to his individual successes. B.S., I say.

I asked for my MIL's blessing, because while I would have married him without her approval (and told her so), I still wanted it because she was (and is) the only family member of his that I truly cared about.

Thank goodness we now live 2k miles from everyone else!

to all the people who say it's a show of respect, but that they would still get married regardless, how is that respect? By all means ask BOTH parents if your proposal would have their blessing (and if not, ask why not - they may have valid reasons for preferring that you wait and nobody likes unnecessary family drama), but asking for permission indicates that you think it's theirs (or specifically HIS) to give, and it's not.

I have a question for people here:

I'm a male feminist, proud to self-identify as one. Now, I know many a good, progressive, feminist woman who would absolutely agree with many here that asking the father for his hand in marriage is a sexist, disgusting tradition.

I'm all with everyone here.

But what do you do if your fiance's (or your) family wants to draw a line in the sand on this? My family is progressive, but they tend to hold fast to many ridiculous marriage traditions. My parents eloped without a family wedding, and well, it pissed a lot of people off.

While I'm all for fighting this on principle, do I have to turn in my feminist card if I want to choose my battles?

This is tradition. I wasn't even planning on asking my girlfriend's father before I propose to her- the idea had never even crossed my mind.

However, my girlfriend mentioned it off-hand one day, and I realized that this was simply a tradition she expected to be followed. I have no problem following it, because I think that at heart it is a display of respect for your wife's family.

I'm not about to defend every aspect of the tradition, but I think in my situation- and most situations in the year 2000+- it is nothing more than a symbolic gesture of respect.

Why anybody would want to attack this tradition, I don't really understand.

Let alone implying that the groom-to-be is displaying some gross need to "own" his wife... that's just being disingenuous to score a political point that I don't think anybody else is even trying to do...

Look at the Purity Balls, those are actually fucked up, and deserve to be slammed back to the 17th century. Asking a father for his daughter's hand in marriage is called being respectful these days.

While there are clearly some people who think it IS about respect, I believe that most of the posters on this thread have stated quite explicitly that they find it to be disrespectful to the woman. So, that's why we are attacking it. Did you read the responses in this thread? Posters gave many, many valid reasons for attacking this sexist tradition. Namely, it's sexist. That's enough reason for me.

If my boyfriend EVER asked my dad's permission for anything about our relationship, I would be totally disgusted and angry. My father is not my boss. He doesn't make my decisions. He doesn't have to agree with or like my decisions. I am a grown adult with my own brain. If someone wants to be with me, they talk to ME about it, not my DAD. That just seems insane to me. Literally, insane.

There are ways to respect your in-laws that don't require you to participate in a sexist, demeaning tradition.

Jeff-what do you mean? Does your family want you to ask her dad for permission? Or is it that she wants you to ask her dad for permission? I think it is important to stand up for our beliefs. Why are their beliefs more important than yours? Not attacking, just curious to hear more about your situation.

Ok, about the whole "I'm making an effort to be part of this family." How do you get that from asking her dad to allow you to propose to her? How is that about being part of the family? Why wouldn't it be enough to actually say "I'm so excited to be part of this family" when you are announcing your engagement, or whatever. What's with all this symbolic crap-why don't people just TALK to each other?

I'm sorry, but it isn't respectful. By 'respecting' your wife's father in this way you are disrespecting your wife.

I'm sorry, but it isn't respectful. By 'respecting' your wife's father in this way you are disrespecting your wife.

jeff - you absolutely don't have to turn in your feminist card. a lot of people make similar choices and as you said, sometimes you have to choose your battles.

as for what i would do, i'm kind of trying to avoid all these decisions by just not getting married at all, but i'm sure that will still make some people uneasy. if i were so inclined, however, i would try to reach some degree of compromise that disposed of what i feel are the most backward, sexist wedding traditions, perhaps in exchange for keeping some that bother me less that would mean more to other people. thankfully my family is fairly lax about that stuff.

alexmlwallace - you don't understand why anyone would be adverse to a tradition that gives lip service at least, to the idea that a woman is the property of her father and then her husband when she marries? really? come on. i get that you don't personally feel that way, but the reasons why it's antiquated, unnecessary and makes many of us uncomfortable have been well articulated here. if you want to show respect to your fiancee's family, there are other, less patriarchal ways to do it (and that involve BOTH parents) and she could reciprocate with your family. it's not like asking the bride's father for permission is the only option.

Charlie-exactly! Choosing to respect the father over your wife is disrespectful! Doesn't seem too complicated to me.

“Why anybody would want to attack this tradition, I don't really understand.�
Read above comments and you’ll understand, or one would hope. If it is about respecting your fiancé’s family and not about transferring ownership, then tell me why it is that it’s always the *guy* asking the woman’s *father*. I don’t claim that every man who does that (or the woman who expects that of their husband to be), is necessarily thinking in those terms, but that’s where the roots of the tradition are: You are acknowledging the father’s ownership of the daughter’s hymen. Yes, “This is tradition�, but it’s sexist tradition, like giving the bride away or, diamond engagement rings, etc. Yes, purity balls are gross, but so is asking “a father for his daughter's hand in marriage�.

Jeff: "While I'm all for fighting this on principle, do I have to turn in my feminist card if I want to choose my battles?"

There's a card? I didn't get a card.

My strong opinion is not an indicator of any desire on my part to live your life for you. We all choose our battles. I wasn't having any of this; you might make a different decision.

I like being able to have the intense conversation picking apart what's really going on though, and I like being able to call bullshit when people deny the underlying meaning of these traditions.

While I'm all for fighting this on principle, do I have to turn in my feminist card if I want to choose my battles?

The goal of posts like this is consciousness raising; let's look at the sexist subtext of these things so many people for granted. That doesn't mean if you choose to do those things you are Cast Out of the Feminist Circle for All Eternity. It's not about maintaining ideological purity, it's about analyzing the attitudes underlying this sort of thing. We all compromise with the patriarchy just to survive, so if that's one of the compromises you feel like you have to make, so be it. Just acknowledge that it's a compromise. So many people feel attacked when things like this are analyzed through a feminist lens, but it's absolutely necessary to do it in order to show the omnipresent patriarchal attitudes. This isn't about judging the individual people living their lives, but challenging the meaning of traditions that demean women and treat us as possessions without autonomy.

I think a lot of the "asking permission" is less about the guy getting permission to marry the daughter than it is about the thousands of dollars that so many brides/couples/parents these days feel a bride's parents are obligated to spend on the wedding.

Add me to the list of people who would puke blood if the people in my life wanted/expected this tradition to be followed. Doing anything "for the sake of tradition" is a bullshit excuse for not examining the meanings behind said tradition. And as far as this whole about respect and blessings and family bonding and blah blah blah, I agree with the above posters that all of that can be discussed over dinner and expressed with much more importance and sincerity than a sexist practice like this could ever signify.

Sara... that presupposes that the father is always the primary funding source of these weddings. My mother made a substantial contribution to my wedding but my father didn't pay for a thing.

The way that asking permission and paying for the ceremony connect in this discussion is that, in a traditional wedding, the bride's family is making a display of wealth that possibly replaces the dowry that Westerners no longer demand when they take women off the hands of their grateful families. Perhaps? Still sounds sexist and antiquated to me.

LivvySidhe that is the best response I have ever seen to the "are you saying I can't be a feminist and do this" comment.

I think the surprise is that people are putting so much more effort into it because marriage itself is becoming a lot less significant.

You know what, fig? I wonder if this isn't exactly what's happening. Marriage itself is becoming a lot less socially and economically significant, so in a sort of attempt to assuage the anxiety such a big social shift incurs, more and more symbolic value is being given to marriage and many of the traditions associated with it.

Jewish tradition has both bride and groom being walked to the altar by both their parents; it's a tricky one to follow if you have parental strife though, or stepparents in the mix. At a wedding I went to recently, the bride and groom walked down the aisle together, and the bride's parents, her birth parents, and the groom's parents each recited one of the aliyahs.

When Spouse and I married we were escorted in to the tent by our parents to pay respect to the family we came from. After the ceremony we skipped down the aisle holding hands.

Neither of us considered asking her father for permission. I signaled my desire to be a part of her family by behaving like one.

"Because it's Tradition!" is a really thoughtless reason to do something IMO. Behaviour should reflect a person's values. If the tradition is something you respect and wish to contiue, great. If you only agree to please your family, that is understandable. We all hve to make some compromises for those we love. But traditions like asking permission come from some beliefs most people no longe hold. I think they should die.

My Dad would never have to worry about anyone asking for his permission because there is no chance in Hell I'll get married, due to my complete incapability to relate to another human being successfully.

On a side note, why are so many FEMINISTS MARRIED??? I have never in my life met a guy who would be willing to put up with a feminist woman. Maybe I'm just unlucky?

My brother-in-law's parents are divorced, but took the attitude that the day was about their son and my sister and not about them. They walked down the aisle together with my brother-in-law and stood with him, and my brother-in-law's stepmother sat in the first row of seats with the groom's grandparents. (BIL's mother remarried too, but was widowed two years before the wedding.) Fortunately they don't hate each other. They just don't have much to do with each other now that their kids are adults. It could be stickier if they'd had a messy divorce or a more recent one. They have been divorced for 20 years already.

It's also nice that in the Jewish ceremony the bride's mother isn't left out, and both parents walk their daughter down the aisle. The only part that bugs me is that they only walk her halfway down the aisle and then lift her veil, and then the groom comes back to get her. Everyone else thinks that part is sweet. I think it's kind of gross, if the veil is a symbol of virginity as I've read. Most rabbis will not perform a wedding if the bride is not wearing a veil (a short one, called a blusher) when she enters, in order to have it removed before the ceremony. As my sister's best friend said when the rabbi told her she had to wear one and she was annoyed because it meant altering her planned hairstyle, "[My fiance] and I have lived together for five years! The jig is up! I'm not a virgin!" She was never one for telling anyone what they wanted to hear, not even clergy. It got her in a lot of trouble when we were kids. Now that we're adults it's just plain funny. (She did have to wear the blusher, though.)

Yes Mary, you are unlucky. I found mine in a bookstore. Liberal arts graduate programs are also a good place to look for great guys. There are lots of them.

Well crap, I just wrote a post to Mary and it didn't make it, I guess.

Anyways, just wanted to say that I feel really bad that you think a man would have to "put up with you." Feminism isn't something a man has to put up with. Any man who thinks like that is a punkass who doesn't deserve one ounce of your energy.

I met my dude on craigs list, embarrassingly enough. He has some stuff to learn about feminism, which can be really frustrating. But, good men do exist! They really really do! Not to be all cheerleadery-but don't waste one minute on a man who can't deal with your feminism. Be loud and vocal about your beliefs-this goes a long way to sorting out the sexist piggies.

That's why I love this blog. It makes me think of things I otherwise wouldn't have thought of myself. I didn't think about how this ties into the whole ownership thing before, I had only thought of how the ring and the dress and all that had.

Now I must urge my boyfriend not to ask my dad. He had mentioned before that he'd been taught that that's what you do. I think it'd be less bad if he asked my dad AND mom, or just told them instead of ask to see their reaction.

Man, dads being involved in thier daughter's love lives is so effin creepy.

My mother explicitly told me that my fiance should ask permission. I declined to mention it. My father and I have a somewhat strained relationship and he'd only met my boyfriend once, when we went to visit them for a few days. I thought it was absurd, particularly since my Dad officially transferred the responsibility of looking after me to my previous long term boyfriend, who was completely baffled by that exchange. I'm not even kidding about this.

My father is amazingly old fashioned in that regard. (and many others) I've argued with him about it, but as I'm he daughter he doesn't believe my opinion has any sort of validity compared to his. (See, strained.) Thankfully, we are good New Englanders so few things like this are ever discussed twice. Should it come up I'll tell my father as he had already handed me over like a particularly ungainly relay stick, my husband would have had to ask my ex-boyfriend's permission.

My mother's other insistence was that she was terrified I wouldn't let my father walk me down the aisle. On this I relented, mostly because by his own reasoning he is now obligated to back off, and my husband certainly knows better. Also as our wedding was in a castle, performed by a stand up comedian, with a jazz trio, I tried to incorporate some traditional structure for so the older attendees could follow along.

Also, Mary- I used to think I was destined to be single forever. Turned out I had just never met a decent man. Hah! I always thought it was just me, but this man is totally different than any other I had ever met.

And yeah, I'm never getting married. I don't understand why so many feminists do it either-uphold a patriarchal institution. For what? I know, some people need health insurance or visas to stay in the country. Other than that-I don't get it.

If ya don't get married, ya don't have to listen to everyone tell you what kind of wedding to have, or what is "respectful." It's real nice.

My husband asked for the blessing of both of my parents. That in itself was a compromise. My father was insistent that he talk to him before hand. I hated the idea, but had a lot of pressure on me from both of my parents. My husband was adamantly against it, perhaps even more than I was. As a really shitty compromise, we agreed that he talk to BOTH of my parents and that it would in no way be an actual request for permission. When he called them (we were living in a different country at the time . . .) and told them that he planned to propose (for the record, I knew that he was going to propose and helped pick out the ring), my dad was such a dick that he even said to him "So . . . you're asking for my permission?" even though he knew that I was against it and my husband had to say "NO, I don't need your permission, I was just calling to let you know and say that I hope you'll support us."

If done today, there are a lot of things about my wedding that I would have done differently, and more than one involves my dad. He walked me down the aisle, but did NOT give me away. And that was a compromise. I didn't need to be walked down the fucking aisle, I could figure out how to get there on my own. But my family would have hated me forever otherwise, blah blah blah. I'm a much stronger person now and more capable of telling my dad to go fuck himself if he tries to degrade or own me in any kind of way. But I wasn't then.

So I do relate to the situation that a lot of people are in and I understand why it is done a lot of the time. Of course, there are probably a hell of a lot more people out there who don't see a damn thing wrong with it (there are a few on this thread), but don't think that everyone who goes this route is just a total mindless idiot.

It does outrage me though that so many people here are defending the practice. I defend why I did what I did because I was under a lot of duress. But I in no way defend the actions themselves. And I definitely don't defend my father. It's fucked up, it's wrong, and if it was about respect so many women on this thread wouldn't feel so damn disrespected, so please, try listening when you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Mary:

Regarding your post:

"On a side note, why are so many FEMINISTS MARRIED??? I have never in my life met a guy who would be willing to put up with a feminist woman. Maybe I'm just unlucky?"

Speaking as a man, I love feminist women. It's incredibly frustrating as a man to be judged by a woman to be in some way, less of a man, because we choose to exhibit fewer masculine traits. It's also a strain on the pocketbook to keep on paying for dates. It's great to be able to talk to a woman about, well, emotions, and not be viewed as a weak because of it.

I don't think it's been said yet that the permission one-on-one between groom and bride's dad used to include a negotiation of financial terms; meaning, of course, dowry or bride price, depending on the specific culture. In many cultures, the groom himself wasn't even part of the dealing -- the groom's dad would go to the bride's dad and they would negotiate a price. Yukky.

Coleen- great point-that line is disturbing! Wowzah! I'm not a little girl, and ewwwww if my heart belonged to my dad. EWWWW!

I believe that the heart is actually the "hymen", even in this case, ;).

And if my hypothetical future fiance EVER asked my father before me I'd calmly see what my dad said and then if it was "yes" I'd go, "Well, I say no. So where does that leave you?"

Though I'm pretty sure my dad, when posed with the "Can I have your daughter's hand in marriage," would either go, "Have you asked her?" or, "Why are you bothering me?"

And here's where I get weird and I know it: I see and can understand the "comfort" in keeping with tradition. I'm one of those people who NEVER pray before eating a meal, except on Thanksgiving and Christmas and that's where my dad, as "head" of the family will recite the Lord's prayer over our food. I haven't been home for thanksgiving in two years, but when I had my own little mini thanksgiving that first year I would not let my friends eat until I recited the prayer. They didn't have to say it with me or even bow their heads but damn it, I was determined to keep the tradition, even though I wasn't at home. It made me feel better. Needless to say they were confused but I couldn't explain it, I just had to do it for myself.

In thinking of marriage I will admit I like the thought of my dad walking me down the aisle. I've even joked with my mom that I feel bad I don't really ever want to get married, cause it seems like fun to have my dad walk me. And that would be the only real reason I'd have the ceremony- so my dad could walk me down the aisle.

As far as the "permission" angle goes, lets be honest here, even asking for a "blessing" is, in essence, asking permission. What would the potential groom do if the father said, "No, you don't have my blessing."? See how that works when you put it like that?

:)

UltraMagnus, I hope that he would say "Well I'm sorry to hear that, but I hope you'll come to the wedding."

about being a feminist and being married...

i always figured that i'd never be married because i'd never find a guy who didn't bore the hell out of me - not because i'd never find someone to put up with me. i was never willing to 'be stupid' or keep my opinions to myself, so a lot of guys self selected not to date me. Though there were times that i was lonely for male companionship, i didn't miss it enough to change.

My late mother's opinion was that i'd never find a guy to put up with me - and when i married my husband she paid him the most respect of anyone in our family. And yet he never raised his voice to her, or did anything except be himself and accept me as myself.

My husband never asked my dad for permission to marry me because he said it wasn't my dad's business. i think my dad would have laughed his ass off if someone had asked his permission. (I'll have to ask him about this. It just never came up during our 'engagement') I didn't have an engagement ring and our wedding band was a poesy ring. I refused to wear white.

Thank god i didn't have to ask my in-laws for permission. I was diagnosed with cancer right after meeting my husband and my mother-in-law and sister-in-law thought he shouldn't marry me because i was sick and would likely die. (But then again, won't we all?)

i have met folks who think we have an old fashioned marriage because i'm always trying to make him comfortable and happy. What they don't understand is that i've learned this from my husband. He taught me that making one's partner happy takes effort. I do things for him because he's my partner, not because he's a man and i'm a woman.

UltraMagnus, I hope that he would say "Well I'm sorry to hear that, but I hope you'll come to the wedding."

That's a great response Cara but it also shows how silly the endeavor was;) If they're going to do it regardless, what's with asking her daddy?

Don't get me wrong, I can understand wanting your in-laws to like you and want happiness for your marriage but again, the whole "blessing"/permission thing is one sided. And ultimately it's your life.

All these defenses of the tradition people are offering don't wash. Yes it's important to get to know a potential spouse's family and sometimes you let people know before you propose, and yes, it's helpful to keep them involved in weddng planning, etc. But a man can do all this w/o engaging in a transaction in which he is symbolically buying a woman from her father.

When I proposed to my wife, I hadn't told anyone what I had planned. I wanted it to be a total surprise and her to be the first to know. When we called everyone we knew afterward, I told her parents (both of them) that I loved their daughter and would be honored to be part of their family. You can show respect to her fmaily without engaging in stupid games.

Before we got engaged I jokingly asked my fiance if he planned to ask my father's permission to marry me. He answered: "Why would I? You're a grown woman, you don't need your parent's permission to marry". Indeed. He did want me to change my name at first, but I explained why I didn't want to and he came around. I always worried about my father giving me away because the tradition is sexist but I didn't want to hurt my dad's feelings - but turns out that's not part of a Jewish wedding ceremony. So I got an easy out on that one.

My (now)husband asked for my Dad's approval. My Dad said "Hang on, let me get my wife, and we'll all talk about it."

I didn't look at it as asking for their permission to remove a piece of property (me) from the family, but asking to join the family.

I understand the squick side of the equation. I think it really depends on the mindset of the people involved.

For example, my husband still opens doors for me, not because he thinks I'm weak and incapable of opening doors, but because he knows I think it's a nice gesture to open a door for anybody.

I can see how that tradition is strongly connected to when women were treated as property (and I guess they still are sometimes now...).

Does anyone think this would change a bit if the the mother was asked--or maybe not asked for her permission, but if she feels her daughter is ready for marriage? In most cases these days it seems quite ridiculous, since most people are grown adults when they get married. It just seems more bizarre when you picture a woman asking her future groom's parents for permission.

just wanted to say wow-i really didnt know about that whole "giving you away" dealio-thats enlightening. is it really a christian tradition though or just a european one? i've only been to muslim weddings and there totally different-you get married sitting on a couch and you don't take your husbands name. also-theres no ring!

Where does the sociological origin lie with my generation that would incite them to bring back sexist traditions? Is it because many in my age group have grown up without the more obvious sexism the Boomer generation had to undergo? More of my generation needs to be educated in feminism. I'm sure many my age wouldnt approve of this if they know where it originated from.

I know alot of women my age would find it stupid if their boyfriends asked permission to marry her. Besides, he probably knows it'll get a 'green light' anyways so its not like its really a mystery.

Or, what if her father said no. How is she supposed to view her boyfriend if whether or not they get married hinges on her parents approval. If they wont be able to marry because her boyfriend needs daddies permission, dump him.

In essence, she cant have what she wants in life (which would be marriage with who she wants)because it has not been granted by a man.

Sarah, I know that Middle Eastern Christians traditionally don't do the giving away thing.

Akeeyu,
I disagree that it changes depending on the mind set. I believe that would be self-delusional. Did you ask his parents for approval? If not, then why did he feel he should ask your parents, but not the other way around? If he feels that he shows a nice gesture for you by always opening the door then why dont you do it too since youre the one who feels its a nice gesture? I mean, wouldnt it be you, who should always open the door for him, as its your preferred method of displaying a friendly gesture?

Oops, rewrote the same sentence twice!

Are we projecting much? After all, there is NO evidence that these young men, nor these fathers, think of these women as property. But, omigod, it's old-fashioned so it's icky. Calm yourselves, people.

But don't you see a difference between asking for "permission" and asking for a blessing from the people who, in theory, love this woman the most and raised her?

Yes, there is a difference. If I were to ever marry, I would want my future in-laws' blessing.

The divorce rate is what, 50%? What is so wrong about the idea of knowing that your parents would tell you if the marriage were headed for disaster?

While I would probably prefer to disembowel myself than to be given away, I would NOT marry without my parents' (multiple, mom & stepmom included!) blessing. I've seen too many marriages where the parents don't want to interfere, and, lo and behold, the marriage ends up sucking big-time.

Yeah, you can talk about grown men and grown women, but half the population does a crappy job of finding a spouse. Sadly, "feminism" is in the business of denying reality.

Oenophile, surely you can see the difference between the man asking the woman's father for permission to wed his daughter, and both parties asking for the blessing of all four (or however many) parents. One really has nothing to do with each other, and I don't know why people keep dragging it into the discussion. Red herring I guess.

"The first is the gross one: asking because it actually means something. Or (even worse) asking BEFORE you actually propose."

Or asking her father INSTEAD of proposing to her. Yes, that is still what some people consider a respectful gesture these days.

"As long as it has nothing to do with actually permitting the marriage, it seems harmless to me."

Right on.

"I recently heard a guy and a woman exchanging stories about how both he and her boyfriend proposed -- ON ONE KNEE."

Hold it, they both proposed on the same knee? Are they contortionists? :)

"My husband told my dad we wanted to get married before he and I bought a ring, but there was no asking for permission. It was more of a hey, guys, guess what we're going to do!"

Now *that* is a sweet way to share the joy with the fanmily. :)

"But, I got a ton of criticism before/during/after my wedding because my dad didn't 'give me away.' The best part was that HE didn't want to do it."

When I was 18 and moved out of my parents' place to my first dorm room, I told my dad "if I get married you can't give me away at the wedding, because you're giving me away to the outside world now" and he was cool with it. :)

"Or what if Daddy says yes, great, but daughter has no intention of marrying this guy? Will her parents try to bully her into it because they approve?"

In some sad cases, yes they will.

"However, I think one of the reasons people cling to it is that it is one of the few wedding traditions that acknowledges that people other than the bridal couple are affected by the marriage."

It seems to acknowledge that the bride's father may subconsciously feel "other male taking one of my females from me!!! me jealous!!!"

"i've only been to muslim weddings and there totally different-you get married sitting on a couch and you don't take your husbands name."

That's a Muslim thing? I heard keeping one's maiden name was standard in Iran and among Arabic speakers but I wasn't sure about other Muslim cultures.

"What is so wrong about the idea of knowing that your parents would tell you if the marriage were headed for disaster?"

Actually, nothing's wrong with that.

There's a huge difference between being an adult asking parents for honest advice about doing X and being a child who's too young to do X without parental permission. Yes, even if X is marriage.

"Yeah, you can talk about grown men and grown women, but half the population does a crappy job of finding a spouse."

As if arranged marriage is necessarily less crappy? Not everyone has standards low enough to be happy putting out for just anyone her or his parents pick...

oenophile, if you really can't see the difference between me saying to my parents over dinner one evening "Mom and Stepdad, partner and I are thinking very seriously about getting married. I'd really value your opinions--do you think it's a good idea?" and my partner saying to my father "Mr. G, may I have your daughter's hand in marriage?" you're the one who's denying reality.

Yeah, you can talk about grown men and grown women, but half the population does a crappy job of finding a spouse.

And you think it's different with arranged marriage? How would you tell? Cultures that promote arranged marriages tend very strongly to discourage divorce, so you wouldn't be able to use that as a standard by which to measure marital happiness. I also note that you're misusing statistics: half of all marriages end in divorce. That does not mean that half of all people are bad at picking partners. It means that half of the people who decide to get married rather than remain single, live with one or more partners, or who are prevented from being married by bigoted laws do not spend their lives with their first pick. My mother, for example, has been married twice. The first time did not work out well. The second time has been splendid. Are you seriously claiming that somebody who's batting 500 when it comes marriage "does a crappy job of finding a spouse"?

"This happened recently with a very progressive couple I know - they had a hippy wedding in the woods and really aren't conformist, yet everyone involved seemed to think it was so charming that he'd asked her dad for permission."

That's so funny, because that could be me and my family. I've been married for one whole month, and I originally wanted my now husband to "ask my dad for permission" to marry me. I think it's cute. Cute because it's so totally unnecessary, especially in our area of the country, and ESPECIALLY in MY family.

So for me, for us, (-here's the important part-) it would have simply been him going an extra mile to have a "man to man" discussion with my dad about why he wanted to marry me. Being a daddy's girl, I appreciated that sentiment.

My dad was actually the one taken aback, and when I told him eventually Travis might "ask him" his response of "O.O WHY?!" put me off of the whole thing, and so it didn't happen.

This from the same girl though, who didn't have her father walk her down the aisle, because fuck that if he was going to give me away.

My point is that it all depends on context. There can be totally sexist reasons for traditions, but if you grow up in an environment where those ARE NOT the prevailing notions, sometimes you find other (and non sexist) reasons to like those old traditions.

What the Fuck, man. Seriously. You love to push buttons on every thread, huh? Your condescending behavior is astounding...
"there is NO evidence that these young men, nor these fathers, think of these women as property."
Explain what you would consider evidence. The analysis of several folks here is clearly evidence to me, but do tell, what do you consider worthy evidence.

Also, this antiquated crap was a symbolic ritual that *reaffirmed* the social order of hierarchy (e.g. man = power, owner of second-class citizen - the woman). The fact that it still exists is not a valid excuse to continue with it. If anything, it indicates how deeply ingrained this fucked up social order continues to persist. It's time for this to be relegated to History books.

"The divorce rate is what, 50%? What is so wrong about the idea of knowing that your parents would tell you if the marriage were headed for disaster?"
Are you serious? A blessing during happy times is going to have an effect on a couple when their relationship crashes? Uhm, are you saying that parents make a wonderful lithmus test of marriage compatibility (as opposed to the couple themselves?

"While I would probably prefer to disembowel myself than to be given away"
But it is perfectly ok, in fact according to you, desirable, that the woman be - oh fine, "blessed away"?

"I've seen too many marriages where the parents don't want to interfere, and, lo and behold, the marriage ends up sucking big-time."
And I've seen plenty of nosy in-laws who *cause* plenty of break-ups. So? What's your point? Mom, we argued, go talk to her for me? I mean, serious - how involved do you want your parents in your marriage (or in-laws for that matter) to be?
"but half the population does a crappy job of finding a spouse"
And this is due to sexist rituals/parents not being involved in a marriage - faltering?

"Sadly, "feminism" is in the business of denying reality."
No sir, the complete opposite. Feminism is extremely in-tuned with reality, and with how pervasive the subjugation of the female gender is, and how easily that status is accepted and endorsed by the likes of you - who think it is perfectly acceptable to patronize an entire movement. As if I am going to fuckily accept whatever trumped up version of reality *you* decide is true.
Ugh, you are a fucking troll.

BTW, before you even go there, I have no idea if you are a woman. So before I am called on it, feel free to switch all the nouns to pertain to you.

You know, on a related note, it occurs to me that marriage is one of the few activities that we say has "failed" if someone doesn't get exactly right on the very first attempt. With most other important things, we stress the importance of practice and improvement.

And because of that, those divorce stats don't give a very clear picture of what's happening. They only allow for two options: married or divorced. And that means that they lump my parents' marriage, which lasted for 20 years, produced two children, and made my mother part of her in-laws' family in a way that has long outlasted the marriage, with Britney Spears's 24-hour Vegas fling. An understanding of relationships that doesn't examine the differences between those two versions of "failed" marriages is paltry indeed.

It's amazing the lengths some people will go to avoid examining traditions.

"Asking the woman's father for permission is about respect...
but if he said 'no' we'd go ahead and marry anyway."

This is a contradiction.
And even if it really was about respect, why is only the man required to respect his elders? For that matter, why is the man expected to pop the question, period. THAT is a sexist expectation/requirement in and of itself.

"I've just always been taught it's 'what to do' so I'll do it."

This is troubling. As though questioning what one's been taught is unacceptable or wrong. Just because something's "always been done" in the past doesn't mean it's necessary or right or exempt from critique or rejection.

And for god's sake, Oenophile. Why do you pretend to be a feminist in this group while simultanously attacking feminism?

To the person upthread who said that it shows that a marriage is about both families (sorry, don't remember who said it), I disagree completely. My husband and I eloped, and didn't tell our families until about 5 months afterward. My husband's family, which is much more close-knit than mine, treated it like it was nothing; they were just happy that he had finally found a woman who met his standards. They have met one of my brothers, and one of my aunts and her family, and with both, they treated my family just like theirs. My family is much weirder than his and I'm not as close to them, but the few that he has met treated him just like family from the beginning as well.

Yes, our marriage was about the meeting of two different families, but neither of our families felt that that gave them any justification to question our decision or force us to ask permission. (In fact, I count about 200 people in my extended family, so if we had to ask permission as a way of bringing our families together, we'd have a LOT of people to ask!) They trusted us, as adults, to make our own decision and even to make our own mistakes if that's how it ended up, and I would be surprised if it ever crossed any of their minds to say that we had to get permission or even a blessing.

I suppose you could argue that this is because neither my husband nor I like to follow tradition simply for the sake of tradition, so our families expected this from us, but I still think it demonstrates that asking for permission is antiquated, ridiculous, and condescending to all involved.

Isabella:

I was really interested in your explanation of why this tradition endures and it made a lot of sense to me. In my sociology of family class we discuss "scripts" and how we fall back on them a lot so this really clicked for me.

But with this being a sexist tradition, and one with an important function, how can we encourage these types of conversations in a different, non sexist way - or do we simply have to shrug our shoulders and say "oh well" even when it makes us uncomfortable?

But also, it seems like telling our fathers "deal with it" is not effective for maintaining healthy relationships.

In addition to how disrespectful this tradition is to the bride, one thing that really irks me about it is that it's inherently so, so disrespectful to the bride's MOTHER. It's like saying, "Fuck you, Mom, you didn't have anything to do with raising me and your opinion isn't worth shit anyhow." I mean, overall I don't like the idea of asking permission, but the omission of Mom in the whole equation is such a glaring aspect of the whole mess. It's an especially big slap in the face to mothers given the amount that they usually invest in their children, and this is just another way mothers are sidelined and told that NOTHING they do matters.

And let's face it, most (though not all) women's moms are likely to know a lot more about them than their dads and will probably have a better idea of whether the relationship is healthy. I'm reminded of a guy I dated for only about a month in high school, who later turned out to be a complete sociopath. He sent me rape threats over e-mail (using the name of a guy he hated) cheated on a later girlfriend with three different girls, and after dating my best friend for a while, used his hacker skills to send a suicide note to half the school that looked like it was from her. To this day, my dad thinks he's a great guy, but because my mom and I have discussed the shit he's done, she knows what a creep he is. I shudder to think what would happen if we still lived in a world where the father's opinion was all that mattered -- my dad would certainly have done all he could to marry me off to a guy like this. Some people here seem to have this completely unfounded idea that asking for the father's permission would somehow ensure that the marriage would be a good one, but in my case and many others, it would be exactly the opposite.

See, although my dad abused me when I was younger, I know he doesn't want me to marry an abuser. However, the fact remains that he is an abuser and would be more likely to unintentionally "approve" of a man with his same abusive tendencies. But when it comes to nice, less stereotypically masculine guys, he has nothing but derision, and would probably never say yes if a guy like that asked to marry me. Since he's not super involved in my life, though, I know he wouldn't say anything if I just suddenly announced that I was going to marry someone who wasn't uber-macho.

The thing is, most of our fathers are from a certain generation and approve of certain types of men, and one could argue that if we get attached to this idea of asking dad, it perpetuates a cycle of women marrying old-fashioned men because those are the men a lot of fathers still approve of. It feels to me like a way of maintaining the status quo and ensuring that only a certain type of guy can get married. (Though it's heartening to see that so many women here have cool dads who would scoff if someone asked permission to marry their daughters!) And not to bring it around to what-about-the-men, but where does this leave more modern men who might not be so easily approved by traditional dads? Asking dad assumes a one-size-fits-all approach, and I think it's extremely valid and important to question this trend now before it regains any more cultural currency.

Also, has anybody else noticed the classism inherent in this tradition? In a lot of families, particularly lower-income families, there is no father to speak of. So, if this creepy-ass tradition continues to gain ground, should some marriages be considered less valid because there was no almighty father to grant "permission"?!?

To quote my kick-ass husband:

"If some asshole comes to me and asks permission to marry Maggie, I'd ignore him and suggest to her that she only have relationships with people who think she is capable of making that sort of decision on her own. Just like a big girl."

Wow, 107 posts.

So, I agree with everyone who said it's a sexist tradition.

It does create the uncomfortable situation sometimes if their parents really expect it whereas the couple does not, but it would cause a big hassle in their life not to do it.

It's easy to say screw'm in the abstract, but not always when faced with the actual consequences.

In guess I think it is ideal if both parents of both people give their blessing to get married. Sort of an informal "we would certainly welcome you into the family and would be happy if you married our son/daughter" ritual. Of course, if the parents are bat-shit crazy or they don't give the blessing, then, well, ugh.

"...as he had already handed me over like a particularly ungainly relay stick..."

That line cracked me up, Roni.

"In a lot of families, particularly lower-income families, there is no father to speak of... should some marriages be considered less valid because there was no almighty father to grant "permission"?!?"

Excellent point, Ponies.

So... why does the sexist tradition of the man proposing still exist in our society?

so... are we all ok with the sexist tradition that the man proposes and the woman can just say yes or no? also active vs. passive, and I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet...

I recently overheard a co-worker lamenting the fact that her daughter's boyfriend called her father and simply "told him (the father) that he was going to propose" to the daughter, but "didn't actually ask for permission".

She was/is seriously upset by this, mostly because she doesn't like the boyfriend and I guess she thinks she has the right to tell her 26 year old daughter who she can marry.

The whole thing makes my skin crawl.

I'd like to comment on the sexism of the man proposing marriage. It is a very silly tradition. I've heard women say things like, "I've asked him when he will propose." Huh? Isn't that a proposal itself? And there are also many examples of couples who discuss marriage (smart), but then go thru the ceremony of a proposal with a ring. I don't get that.

My husband and I discussed marriage, then gave each other a fews days to think about it before giving our answer, diamond engagement ring not necessary. But I guess that's not very "romantic".

After my recent engagement, I've been having this argument with my mother (!!), who expects it to happen. It's...well, it's special.

Actually, krissy, that's a tradition I just do not get. For something as important to me and my future life and my partner's as marriage, I want an engagement to be a decision we make together, not something that comes out of the blue when I'm not expecting it.

Well, maybe if that tradition were less the norm, the whole issue of whether the "proposer", usually the man, asks the "proposee"'s male relative for permission would be moot. I can't imagine myself or many women I know swooning over a giant diamond ring when a guy gets down on one knee and asks to marry me. The whole "surprise" aspect of it is really disturbing, because it's not really a decision you should be making in a single moment, and if you've already decided, "oh, as soon as he proposes to me, I'll say yes!" then what's the point of waiting for HIM to ask???

Our proposal:

We were walking into a grocery store. I said, "Well, since we've been together for two years we should probably think about getting married."
Him: "I think getting married would be a great idea."
Me: "When should we do it?"
Him: "Next summer?"
Me: "OK" (kiss)

No engagement ring. No weird fuss. It was nice and created absolutely no stress. We had plenty of time to think about what marriage would mean. It worked really well.

I'm so glad to have eschewed so many stress-inducing traditions.

I can't imagine how confused my gf's dad would be if I went and "asked him permission."

He'd probably think I was asking for money.

Wow, sgzax, that's almost exactly how my husband and I got engaged too. Except we hadn't gotten to the store yet and I said it as a half-serious joke. He said, "Sure." A few days later, I asked if he was serious when he said yes and he said he was. So we got married. I'm actually glad that I'm the one who brought it up because it gave me (the one with commitment issues) the chance to do it when I felt comfortable.

I agree that the whole surprise thing is weird. I can't watch when a man surprise-proposes to a woman on camera; I just think, "What if she really wants to say no, but can't because that will make her the bad guy?" But then, I'm not fond of public scenes in general....

I don't know... my husband went to my parents, although he went to my mom because, as he said, he knew he could only get to one of them, and he knew my mom was the one to talk to, and told them he wanted to propose, and while he didn't ask for permission, he did say that hoped they would give us their blessing.

I think it's more of a "will you welcome me to your family" than a "can I have your daughter" kind of thing in this day and age.

Course, I had my dad walk me down the aisle and give me away, so what do I know...

I was raised in a family where all of my brothers-in-law "asked" for all of my sisters (3 sisters). I don't think my sister-in-law had to ask for my brother, though. It never really ocurred to me how weird this was until my dad told me that whenever a man asks to marry his daughter he (my dad) has this talk with him (the future son-in-law) all about how a woman's place is in the home and he'd better be able to support his daughter and not MAKE her work. HA! All my sisters (except one who's a bit off) work outside the home! My mother has worked my whole life! My dad can have whatever talk he wants with whoever I might marry--I'll just tell him to ignore it and let me do what I want.

I just saw this response in the Boston Globe today:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/letters/articles/2007/10/10/decent_proposals/

"SO, I'M reading my morning Globe over a hot cup of heaven, and I come across this article about the archaic tradition of a potential groom asking the dad for his daughter's hand (Page A1, Oct. 9). Halfway through, I start composing a response to the Globe stating my annoyance with the perpetuation of feudal chauvinism, yadda, yadda, yadda - not necessary; unbeknown to me, my future son-in-law, Chris Cole, is quoted as saying it would be an insult to his fiance, my daughter Nikki Wescott, to ask her dad's permission. I knew I liked this guy the minute I saw him. Now, if he wants to ask my permission. . ."

EMILIE WESCOTT DiMENTO
Winthrop

My father died several years ago, but if any guy had asked him for "permission", he probably would've said something along the lines of, "Aren't you asking the wrong person?"

if you dont like it so much then drawing attention to it by parodying it wont help.Besides,everyone knows that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery :-)

if you dont like it so much then drawing attention to it by parodying it wont help.Besides,everyone knows that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery :-)

my bad!!!! that comment was supposed to be for "funniest thing ever",and also was not supposed to be posted a billion times...my computer hates me.

I agree that the whole surprise thing is weird. I can't watch when a man surprise-proposes to a woman on camera; I just think, "What if she really wants to say no, but can't because that will make her the bad guy?" But then, I'm not fond of public scenes in general....

Yeah, I think it's pretty mean unless you really know your partner's keen.

Apparently a few years back where I live a guy took out a full-page ad in the newspaper asking his partner to marry him and she was so angry at being exposed like that that she took out a full-page reply the next week saying NO. Ouch!

I was thinking, if my partner or a theoretical future one asked my father for permission (not likely for SO many reasons, but still) I'd actually feel obligated to leave him. If he's been with me long enough to want to marry me and doesn't know how much I would hate that, we really couldn't be together. Which would suck :(

I always looks at this tradition with this logic:

1.) Before I actually work up the nerve to propose, I'd assume that my prospective bride would have talked with her mother about whether or not us getting married would be a good idea.

2.) I'd further assume that her mother would tell her father what they decided.

3.) When I talked to her father about marrying his daughter, it wouldn't exactly be to ask his permission, since no reasonable person would actually expect a father would make that sort of decision.

But not being married or engaged, that's just a whimsical view.

Relatedly, I think it is a little-used tradition that on leap years women are supposed to propose to men.

Before we got engaged (about four years ago) my now-husband asked me--somewhat covertly--if I thought he should ask my father for his blessing. I thought my dad would be pleased with that, and he was. My guy definitely didn't ask for permission, but he did look to the male head of house for the go ahead to join the family.

While the whole "are you willing to pay me to take this woman off your hands" thing is assuredly BS and no longer valid, it seems just fine to me to talk to someone in the family you will be integrating into. If my husband wasn't estranged from his family (quite justifiably, I'll add), I would expect to talk to his sister or mother about how their family works. It seems purely pragmatic to me, or at least it can be.

I'll also note that we're a couple of willfully childfree neo-pagans who got married by a judge in Grandma's back yard, so we don't exactly kowtow to tradition.

And if he hadn't gotten the blessing? We'd have gotten married anyway. It was a bit of a water-testing; blessing=welcome to the family, no blessing=my daughter can do what she wants but I don't have to like you. So all things considered I don't know that the issue of asking the dad needs to automatically piss anyone off.

Before we got engaged (about four years ago) my now-husband asked me--somewhat covertly--if I thought he should ask my father for his blessing. I thought my dad would be pleased with that, and he was. My guy definitely didn't ask for permission, but he did look to the male head of house for the go ahead to join the family.

While the whole "are you willing to pay me to take this woman off your hands" thing is assuredly BS and no longer valid, it seems just fine to me to talk to someone in the family you will be integrating into. If my husband wasn't estranged from his family (quite justifiably, I'll add), I would expect to talk to his sister or mother about how their family works. It seems purely pragmatic to me, or at least it can be.

I'll also note that we're a couple of willfully childfree neo-pagans who got married by a judge in Grandma's back yard, so we don't exactly kowtow to tradition.

And if he hadn't gotten the blessing? We'd have gotten married anyway. It was a bit of a water-testing; blessing=welcome to the family, no blessing=my daughter can do what she wants but I don't have to like you. So all things considered I don't know that the issue of asking the dad needs to automatically piss anyone off.