*bangs head repeatedly on desk*

This is nuts. Give a body time, nutrition, and exercise as feasible, and you get your muscle tone etc back. Sure there are some permanent changes, but... so? That's natural. Having babies is not a disease or a deformity that needs to be "corrected." This plastic surgery crap is way out of control!

This is similar to the "Should women go gray?" article I read in The Week a few weeks back. The mainstream media seems to be asking a lot of questions that should not occur to a sane woman in the first place.

It figures Dr. Stoker practices out of Marina Del Rey. L.A. is ground zero for this kind of insanity. Last thing we need is for this collective dementia to spread, though.

As perhaps a product of society's views on these things I'm pretty grossed out by a lot of natural stuff. Like stretch marks, and general ... sag.
But that is my problem, and I would never go calling people ugly because of my problems. No one should not be telling these women they're ugly. If they think they're ugly, and they are happier for their surgery, fine. It is a shame that our society makes them (and me) think this though.
Keep in mind that knowing your body changes are perfectly natural doesn't mean you like them, and that knowing it's society's fault you don't like them doesn't make you like them either.
With that in mind, if I ever decide that babies sound fun for me, I'll probably have some surgery after. But that's my mental issue, not anyone else's.

If this collective dimensia spreads I will off myself. While to the new mommies it may seem like "it's not hurting anyone!" it DOES hurt ALL women because soon enough we'll all be expected to look like a 17 year old cheerleader post-pregnancy or go under the knife to achieve that look. Men will begin to expect it from us. If this hasn't happened already, that is...

"Give a body time, nutrition, and exercise as feasible, and you get your muscle tone etc back."

That is simply not true in many cases. The fat deposits you see in the photos of the women who have had tummy tucks does not respond to exercise and diet. A woman could be anexoric skinny and she will still have that pouch of hanging flab.

Personally, I would love to have a tummy tuck and when I get an extra $7-10K, I probably will.

Before everyone starts ragging on me let me say this: I am a raging feminist who just happens to be tired of looking like I'm five months pregnant. I will gladly let a certified board plastic surgeon cut that crap off of me.

The crazy thing is, the women's bodies actually look better BEFORE the surgery. The very first comparison "after" shot looks so sickly. And it would be more desirable and attractive to have visible scarring for what reason?

The ironic thing is, despite all the 'embrace your womanhood' through surgical alteration crap the site is slinging, there is something distinctly masculine about the fat distribution in the "after "shots. Sure it flattens her tummy, but the overall result is worse.

i don't know what to say. it's fucking frightening that women are no doubt going to be subject to even more pressure to look like the aforementioned 17-year-old cheerleader even at middle age and after popping out a few kids.

the problem is that i'm totally conditioned to fear aging and to think that a lot of this natural stuff is gross. i'm sure if my post-pregnancy body was changed much i would feel really bad about myself. i know it's bullshit, but i'm not immune. :(

to be honest, i've kind of been looking forward to getting older in some respects, namely that as everyone eventually gets less attractive (mostly anyway), personality has to matter more, right?

Dee, what you have may not be fat -- it may be muscle dysplasia. I found out from my doctor last week that the reason my stomach looks like I'm six months pregnant and I suffer serious pain anytime I or someone else presses on it is that my stomach muscles are actually running up and down the sides of my abdomen, having been permanently shoved out of the way by my babies as they grew, and now, 15 months after giving birth, my bowels are only held in by my skin.

It's important to note that exercise, at least standard crunches, *will not fix* dysplasia. Nor will becoming an anorexic. There's a woman who wrote a book on a technique to fix dysplasia through special exercises, but since she says that you have to relearn how to sit up and one wrong move could set you back months of exercise, that does not seem practical.

I am probably going to have to have surgery, not because my post-pregnancy body has stretch marks (it does) or saggy breasts (it doesn't), but because my post-pregnancy body cannot sit up without me grabbing onto something to haul myself up with, suffers terrible pain when my little boy head-butts me in it, and embarrasses me and other people on a regular basis because they ask when I'm due and I have to tell them I'm just fat. But that's not cosmetic surgery -- there's something *wrong* with me caused by pregnancy, not just the way I look but the function of my body.

I suspect that most people who have a pouch of fat in front that won't respond to exercise and makes them look pregnant are probably actually suffering some structural muscular problem such as dysplasia, but we're so obsessed with fat it never occurs to most people that a tummy sticking way out could have a reason *other* than plumpitude.

this is pretty sick. Coming from someone who plans to get pregnant in a couple of years, let me say, I weep for the future... If it becomes the norm that every time I have a kid, I'm expected to cut myself up to look good, then I'll have a lot of punches to throw! It's so typical. " you women get having those babies... but you know, don't look like you had one after, that just ewe" .

ack.

AlaraJRogers,
Yes, I believe you're correct, although I have no pain. I recently lost ten pounds and the baggy skin actually looked worse.

I do plan on having a tummy tuck simply because I think my gut looks horrible. I don't have these expectations that I am going to have a 17 year olds figure. I just want to look and feel normal.

Did anyone notice that their web site also offers labiaplasty? I'm not surprised. I googled the topic of mommy makovers to see just how prevalent this crazy idea is and found many places that offer the same thing. There is even a site that offers to fix the post-baby bellybutton (on the mom, not the baby). They call the new and improved belly button the Rodeo Drive belly button. Just how many ways can they find to "fix" women's natural bodies and the results of natural processes whether it's aging, gray hair, or post-baby bodies.

I find all of this incredibly depressing. After losing almost 20 pounds and nearing my goal weight, I find that no matter how good I may feel about myself physically or aesthetically, I'm going to be bombarded with messages and articles from well-regarded sources like the NYT telling me that I'm not good enough.

"i don't know what to say. it's fucking frightening that women are no doubt going to be subject to even more pressure to look like the aforementioned 17-year-old cheerleader even at middle age and after popping out a few kids."

...especially if they "opted out" and now fear "you're not the woman I married anymore, I want out!!!" reactions from breadwinners whom they had attracted by looking like 17-year-old cheerleaders.

I wouldn't be surprised if *avoiding* $10,000 surgery looks more expensive to some women in that situation.

"to be honest, i've kind of been looking forward to getting older in some respects, namely that as everyone eventually gets less attractive (mostly anyway), personality has to matter more, right?"

That applies in a setting which doesn't gain any younger people as the ones already in it get older, right?

"It's so typical. ' you women get having those babies... but you know, don't look like you had one after, that just ewe' .

"ack."

Ack indeed.

look at the scrutiny on Britney Spears body post babies as a glaring example of this phenomenon.

As a woman who has undergone two pregnancies 9 years apart, I can tell you that I got my pre-baby body back pretty fast after the first one, and it's taking longer for the second one- I wasn't very active during my second pregnancy. I'm not terribly concerned about it. I waited a year after the second one, tossed out the clothes I didn't fit back into, and concentrated on more important and interesting issues.

Becoming a mother changes you forever emotionally, spiritually, and yes, physically.

Wouldn't it be nice if instead of conning women into forking over money for mutilation we were pampering new moms, giving them time and resources to learn how to be a mother, bond with their babies, and treat their bodies with the same love and patience we would them to extend to their children?

And while I do agree that this plastic surgery issue is moot point for the vast majority of those of us who could never afford it, there's always a trickle-down effect.

Look at the percentage of women with body dysmorphia, anorexia, and bulimia...do you think those issues miraculously disappear during pregnancy? Not so much...

Frog Queen, you bring up a good point...what is the expectation of the plastic surgery industry for those who have multiple children? Keep going under the knife? They may have addressed this on that site, but I am not inclined to go peek.

In any event, rileystclair - I am with you when you say you know it's bullshit but you are not immune. I believe buggle was trying to tell me that on another thread. And I kicked myself for it a lot, placing the blame on myself for actually buying into the beauty industry even though it is beyond obvious that the ideal body type they force-feed us visually cannot be attained.

And then I had a conversation with someone who said that I don't buy into it - only part of me does. I never thought of it that way, but that makes a difference to me. I am only one person, going upstream against an onslaught that is supported by billions and billions of dollars. And also like you, I have been enthusiastic about getting older...not because my personality will matter more per se, but because older women seem so secure about their bodies. And...then I realize that is a fallacy. I keep expecting to have this gigantic moment of an epiphany when I am older, where afterwards I am secure about myself and fully accept my body, my thighs, my hips, my butt - and that is simply not going to happen. It's a hell of a war, but it is a war and one that I suspect will take many battles both won and lost. Now and when I am older.

Last year I had a severe complication from a "routine" medical procedure. Luckily, we were able to get to the hospital on time so I wasn't ever at risk of death, but if the timing had been different, I could have died.

I can't see taking that kind of risk for plastic surgery, unless my quality of life was severely affected (think major deformity.)

I know others feel differently. I've known people who have lost a lot of weight through diet and exercise, and then had tummy tucks because that last bit wouldn't go away. I can understand how after years of hard work, it would be very frustrating to still feel like you didn't look like your goal.

But what particularly scares me about this so called 'mommy job' is packaging of multiple surgeries. "While you are here for the tummy tuck, let's do your boobs!" It's downplaying the additional risk for women, selling them more than they came in for.

"I've known people who have lost a lot of weight through diet and exercise, and then had tummy tucks because that last bit wouldn't go away."

I can relate but for a slightly different reason.

My belly's kinda flabby, but if I diet and exercise to lose weight my body will burn up all my breast fat (going from AA cup to completely flat) and some of my thigh fat before doing anything to my belly fat. I've already seen this begin to happen other times I've lost weight. So, maybe some women get tummy tucks because they want to tone up their abdomens and don't want to destroy their breasts in the process?

I remember reading an article last year which asserted that each increase in cup size (breast) equated to an additonal $50,000 a year in income. I'll try to find it. I guess we shouldn't be too shocked by the commercialization of women's bodies.

One of the most disgusting quotes in the article is this one from Sharlotte Birkland, a nurse in Sacramento:

"There is more pressure on mothers today to look young and sexy than on previous generations," she added. “I don’t think it was an issue for my mother; your husband loved you no matter what,� said Ms. Birkland, who recently remarried.

Um, yeah. I'm a single mom with a nice (or, according to the article, not so nice) pouch that used to house my daughter. I'll keep my pouch, thanks, and any man who loves me had better love it, too. Who wants to be married to a man whose conditions include no belly and socially-acceptable boobs?

Is it me or has anyone else noticed that many of the women on the site are very young mothers having the surgeries! Well, to ME they're young. That speaks to just how much pressure there is.

Is it me or has anyone else noticed that many of the moms on the site having the mom-special are rather young? Well, to ME they're young. That speaks to just how much pressure there is. I checked out the labiaplasty and the woman they show was 24 years old. I cease to understand this since I can't reall see the difference between the before and after pictures.

And, let's not forget that these are SURGERIES. Doctors offices are marketing multiple surgeries as a package - buy one, get one free.

I especially dislike the part of the profiles where they ask the moms how their kids react to their new bodies. Mom-tested, kid-approved.

Ew. Wrong.

Yeah, I don't ever see myself asking my child what he/she thinks of mommy's new labiaplasty.

And while it's true that only the wealthiest 1% of the population can afford this, it affects all us poor women because we'll be expected to adhere to those standards. At least Sarah Jessica Parker had the class to announce loudly and often after giving birth that "i only look like this because I can afford a trainer and a babysitter. Many women can't."

the world needs more sites like this instead, showing what real women look like after pregnancy, and supporting them in their new bodies.

"I remember reading an article last year which asserted that each increase in cup size (breast) equated to an additonal $50,000 a year in income. I'll try to find it. I guess we shouldn't be too shocked by the commercialization of women's bodies."

That simply, 100%, can't be true. Of all physical characteristics, height has the strongest association with income, even larger than the effect of gender on income. And that is something like an extra $500 extra per year per inch above average (varies based on the study).

So, maybe an extra $500 per year per breast size might be believable, but $50,000 is just out of the realm of believability. Even $5000 seems highly unlikely.

Nakedthoughts, thank you SO MUCH for sharing that link! The text and accompanying images are really beautiful- that has completely made my day.

I encourage the rest of you to check it out!

I was wondering when this was going to become a full blown phenomena. I'd heard (living in L.A.) a few years ago that doctors offices were offering tummy tucks to women who'd gotten C-sections (hell, it's already cut open! [/sarcasm]) and then with the boom of the celebrity mommy obsession, seeing women with trainers and nutritionists looking like they'd never been pregnant in the first place. I'd read this one blog that had photos of Tobey Maguire and his girlfriend at the beach with their recently born baby. She was wearing a two piece and the comments section ripped her a new one for having the nerve to not wear a one piece (or to have even left the house in that "condition"). There was even a comment by another recent mother who said she "knew better" than to expose people to her unattractive body. At that point I had to stop reading.

It's sad because for women it's hardly a win-win situation. If you get pregnant everyone thinks your pregnant body is "cute" but then like someone said above, once the baby is out she's expected to snap back into shape.

UCLAbodyimage,
I didn't make that up (cup size = $50,000). I remember reading it in the LA Times or SF Gate. Perhaps they were referring to entertainers....I'm still looking for the article.

"It's sad because for women it's hardly a win-win situation. If you get pregnant everyone thinks your pregnant body is "cute" but then like someone said above, once the baby is out she's expected to snap back into shape."

...and if you don't give birth or don't even get pregnant in the first place, some people still complain.

This is a gross thought, but when I know someone has had plastic surgery say getting breast implants, I think of their body just rotting away until two lumps of fake boob are just sitting on top of the dust pile. I understand changing your body to make yourself feel better, but not on the basis of pleasing everyone else. Society pisses me off so much.

I've known people who have lost a lot of weight through diet and exercise, and then had tummy tucks because that last bit wouldn't go away.

So, maybe some women get tummy tucks because they want to tone up their abdomens and don't want to destroy their breasts in the process?

But what's so wrong with having a slightly flabby belly in the first place? Why are these women driven to have surgery rather than be happy with the belly they have? If it weren't for the media constantly feeding us images of super-toned stomachs, would we feel the need to achieve a perfectly flat stomach, whether through diet, excercise or surgery? If a woman can't get her pre-pregnancy body back through diet and excercise... well, why should she? Why should a 30-something year old woman who's had two children look like a 16 year old girl? Never mind: "You should be achieving that body through diet and excercise rather than surgery", why do we need to have that body at all?

"That applies in a setting which doesn't gain any younger people as the ones already in it get older, right?"

well, that's true too, but what i really meant to say was that at least in dealing with women my own age, that the ones who skate by on looks alone now would be more susceptible to being judged on the merits of their character/personality/intellect/etc when we're all too old for wet t-shirt contests. the proliferation of a plastic surgery culture makes this less likely, of course.

and to whoever made the comment about men leaving their wives who "opt out" of expensive, dangerous procedures like this, i have no doubt that it would happen. any time the ante is upped with regard to female appearances, it's only a matter of time before the latest fad becomes expected of all.

"Why are these women driven to have surgery rather than be happy with the belly they have?"

In some cases, maybe they were happy with the bellies they had, miss those, and want to get those back?

"Never mind: 'You should be achieving that body through diet and excercise rather than surgery', why do we need to have that body at all?"

Now that we're not just talking about options for the rich, what about women who didn't want their pregnancies in the first place but couldn't get abortions in time? If someone diets and exercises to get her earlier figure back instead of celebrating how an unwanted pregnancy and birth warped her body, must we assume the media brainwashed her?

I'm also reminded a bit of this:

http://feministing.com/archives/007771.html

"This realization came up when Janjay, the black girl in question, said she didn't want to lay out so she wouldn't get darker. Not that laying out in the sun is such an important pursuit, but it's a shame she feels that way."

Maybe Janjay's just happy with the skin color she already has and wants to keep that?

Of course pressuring people to change their bodies to meet beauty conventions, instead of loving their bodies, sucks!

Now is complaining about people who do have conventionally-beautiful traits (whether a firmer gut or lighter skin or whatever) loving their bodies and wanting to keep even those traits a useful answer to the pressure?

"and to whoever made the comment about men leaving their wives who 'opt out' of expensive, dangerous procedures like this,"

That poster was me, and I should have been clearer. Oops. By "opt out" I was thinking more of another trend in an earlier one of these articles - "opting out" of wages and salaries to become a housewife (and possibly need a "mom job" to stay a housewife).

"well, that's true too, but what i really meant to say was that at least in dealing with women my own age, that the ones who skate by on looks alone now would be more susceptible to being judged on the merits of their character/personality/intellect/etc when we're all too old for wet t-shirt contests. the proliferation of a plastic surgery culture makes this less likely, of course."

...and the proliferation of younger women. For example, if there were no facelifts then someone couldn't compare a 60-year-old woman who didn't have a facelift to another 60-year-old woman who did have a facelift, but that someone could still compare her to a 30-year-old woman.

"UCLAbodyimage,
I didn't make that up (cup size = $50,000). I remember reading it in the LA Times or SF Gate. Perhaps they were referring to entertainers....I'm still looking for the article."

Hi dee - that sounds more plausible (effect for income of movie stars or something).

Here's the most relevant thing I could find:

TITLE: Attractiveness and Income for Men and Women in Management

ABSTRACT:
It is commonly believed that attractive people are more successful, but the empirical support for this belief is mixed. A number of role-playing, laboratory studies have demonstrated that more attractive men are more often hired, but the laboratory data for women are less consistent. Few studies have explored the effects of attractiveness on actual hiring and starting salaries for men or women. Even less work has been done on the impact of attractiveness once on the job. It was predicted that there would be positive effects for attractiveness and that the effects would be stronger as people worked longer on their jobs. To test this prediction, a sample of 737 male and female MBA graduates from the years between 1973 and 1982 was used to explore how facial attractiveness relates to starting and later salaries. Results indicated that more attractive men had higher starting salaries and they continued to earn more over time. For women, there was no effect of attractiveness for starting salaries, but more attractive women earned more later on in their jobs. By 1983, men were found to earn $2600 more on the average for each unit of attractiveness (on a 5-point scale) and women earned $2150 more. Implications for research in this area are discussed.

Now is complaining about people who do have conventionally-beautiful traits (whether a firmer gut or lighter skin or whatever) loving their bodies and wanting to keep even those traits a useful answer to the pressure?

I'm not complaining about the women who make those choices. I'm complaining about a system that makes them feel like they have to make those choices. If flabby stomachs and flat stomachs were treated as equally attractive by our society (or if the flabby stomach was treated as more attractive) would those women still be so driven to get their flat stomach back after pregnancy? (Or weight gain, or whatever?) Maybe some still would, because they were attached to the bodies they had, but I'm willing to bet a lot wouldn't.

But what particularly scares me about this so called 'mommy job' is packaging of multiple surgeries. "While you are here for the tummy tuck, let's do your boobs!" It's downplaying the additional risk for women, selling them more than they came in for.

That's how the woman who wrote the First Wives' Club died, right? She was a serial plastic surgery patient, and died getting one of her surgeries. It always makes me sad when I realize that our looks are more important than our lives.

"If flabby stomachs and flat stomachs were treated as equally attractive by our society (or if the flabby stomach was treated as more attractive) would those women still be so driven to get their flat stomach back after pregnancy? (Or weight gain, or whatever?) Maybe some still would, because they were attached to the bodies they had, but I'm willing to bet a lot wouldn't."

Yeah, good points here.

As for "if the flabby stomach was treated as more attractive," you might find this article interesting:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3429903.stm

"...A generation ago, over a third of women in the country were force-fed as children - Mauritania is one of the few African countries where, on average, girls receive more food than boys.

"Now only around one in 10 girls are treated this way. The treatment has its roots in fat being seen as a sign of wealth - if a girl was thin she was considered poor, and would not be respected..."

One study showed that size discrimination is prevalent in hiring decisions, and affects women more:

Women suffer the greatest unfairness, she said. "They don't have to weigh very much for employment discrimination to kick in."

Rothblum once showed a set of identical resumes to a group of students. Half stated that the fictitious female job seeker was 120 pounds. The other half put her weight at 180 pounds. She asked the students to rate the woman's professional competence and suggest her appropriate salary range.

The 180-pound woman scored dramatically lower. "The amazing thing about that experiment," Rothblum said, "is that, actually, 180 pounds is not that heavy. Imagine what larger people experience. I think fat people underestimate how much of their daily encounters are different because of their weight."