What bothers me about this is that they're putting the onus on parents to talk to their kids while simultaneously competing with the parents' message. Most parents aren't really a match for the beauty industry.

Obviously it is just a marketing ploy to make Dove products seem benign in the beauty industry, like you would be turning your back on the superficial stuff by buying their soap/cleanser/shampoo. It's sad that the marketing of a product has come down to betraying the industry, instead of changing it.

Still, I think using lotion and deodorant is quite different from Botoxing, bleaching, and implanting. I mean, doesn't everyone use lotion and deodorant?

This reminds me of sort of the cig industry and all of its "wait-until-you're-18" messages. It's merely a way of saying, "Look at us, we might be creating a harmful product, but at least we're responsible about it."

Marc is not impressed with this. :[

Point is, when it comes to body image, better spokespersons would be those at your campus' FMLA clubs or performers for Love Your Body Day.

Yeah, Rock Star, but they also sell "firming" cream & all that "pro.age" anti-aging stuff too. And some of their deodorant commercials tout the product's ability to give you smoother, prettier underarms. Yay! Another body part to obsess about!

Plus Unilever makes Axe and the whitening cream sold in India.

Wow, this is pretty complicated. I love the video and the concept but it certainly does conflict with the company(ies) involved.

I think I am going to cautiously side with Dove here, especially due to my limited understanding of how "parent companies" truly operate.

I do have trouble reconciling this message but I have to believe that they are making a step in the right direction. This video made me think- of course, I already agreed with their message but I would hope that even those who didn't would be affected by this video.

I am not one of those "something is better than nothing" people but this "Something" is significant.

Yeah, I've never thought about it, but there are a lot of comparisons one could make between this and tobacco's companies in vying for public support.

However, unlike cigarettes, which just look like desperate fools when they try those sorts of moves nowadays, Dove is being taken really serious. It's not all bad, if it gets people to talk about the issue. It IS bad though , when its heart is all about making profits.

It's just a shame that Dove and the massive amounts of money behind selling it weren't available to groups that tout the same message but that's all they tout, and not the ability to turn your fat and fabulous thighs as smooth as marble, as well. Because we all know fat is only okay if you're body resembles that of a giant, porcelain doll.

I'll give Dove one thing. That commercial is creepy as hell. Side note: Whenever I saw the "smoother" underarms commercial, I thought they were talking about a moisturizer in the deodorant that would help with razor burn/bumps, that are uncomfortable, not just "unsightly."

Hard to reconcile? They want to make money! Listen to Bill Hicks!

Jessica, you hit the nail on the head as to why I don't get too excited about Dove's "Campaign for Real Beauty." At the end of the day, they're still trying to get me to buy their shit, which is beauty products. An advertising message that says "Real women buy Dove" doesn't do a thing to solve any real problems with society (although I do like how they're donating to women's organizations). Still, if I wanted to make that kind of difference, I'd make the donation myself (assuming I had disposable income... hee). Just like if I wanted to donate to breast cancer research, the best thing to do is to donate directly to the research organization, instead of buying a bunch of pink shit.

This is kind of off topic... A friend of mine had some advice to share with women who have the misfortune of being in the (straight) dating game.

You buy a small bottle of AXE (no, really). Then, familiarize yourself with the scent.

Finally, if you smell it on your date, activate the "emergency friend rescue system" and/or escape out the back door.

The idea is that people should actually thank the makers of AXE. It's like an asshole early warning alarm or something!

Was I the only one completely weirded out by the drug commercial women all wearing the same zombie expression? It was really noticeable when they all started flicking by really fast.

And while I don't remember who was remarking upon Dove's deodorant giving you soft skin, I want to say this: I will ONLY use Dove deodorant. It doesn't make my pitties softer, but I have seen a marked decrease in underarm irritation since I began using their BO sticks!

This video pisses me off even more than the last one. SarahMC has it exactly right -- telling parents to talk to their daughters about self-esteem while the "beauty" industry spends billions to persuade girls otherwise. Right.

What I'd love to see is a corporation that will lose some revenue by pledging not to advertise to children (as Dove does with their "Girls Only Interactive Self-Esteem Zone").

Quit using my daughter's insecurites to build your brand loyalty.

I think the ad isn't very helpful.

It's like a cigarette ad that flashes 30 images of movie stars smoking and looking cool (and then a couple scary images) and then saying "Don't smoke - it's not school".

I'm not convinced that flashing 30 images of slender women coupled with a couple negative ones is any better than an ad just flashing 3-4 images of slender women.

Ok, sure, I understand that Dove is being fairly hypocritical (although not to the point of negating everything in the ad.. Dove is certainly not selling cosmetic surgery). BUT I still LOVE the ad. I'd much rather turn on the TV and see THIS interspersed into the mindless line of typical commercials than to not see it at all! Yeah, I'd probably think that Dove has another agenda, but I don't think that's the point. They're sending a GOOD message, and I think that's what really matters right now. You have to start somewhere, and I promise it's not going to be perfection. You have to build towards that.

Seriously cool video (regardless of who made it).

Whoops: "It's not cool", not "it's not school".

Forbidden, but Axe users should be given the benefit of the doubt! I once lost my bottle of cologne and borrowed my roommate's Axe ...I'd never felt so ...douchbaggy in my life, but at least I didn't smell like ass and musk on the date.

What about talking to sons, about how the "images" of beauty are fakes?

I'm not so sure I agree with all the comments... We don't like the beauty industry. Fine. But we are apart of it - involved in it - walk amongst it. I like to paint my fingernails. I like to wear mascara. I like to condition my hair. I don't like to have hair above my upper lip. Does that make me any less of a feminist? No. So where exactly am I supposed to get my beauty products from? Wouldn't you rather buy your conditioner from a company that is at least trying to do something - anything - to address the lofty and unrealistic ideals put upon women by the beauty and fashion industries? Of course they're just trying to sell their products - that's what they are in business to do - sell us shit. And you know what? I want to buy it because I don't my hair to be frizzy or my skin to be scaly. And I appreciate a company that at least has the decency to say, hey, you should buy this lotion, but maybe at some point you should also stop and think about what you're doing to yourself and your body and why, exactly, you have the need to do it in order to feel good.

Rather than deny the fact that many if not most women want to look and feel beautiful, why don't we acknowledge exactly what it is Dove is trying to do? They're attempting to expand the definition of beauty to fit a variety of skin tones, body types, and looks so that more women can feel like they are validly "beautiful." So yes, they are selling anti-aging creams and firming lotions and anti-cellulite creams - but why is all of that necessarily bad? Is it so awful to want to look good or to acknowledge how important looking good is to some women? By expanding the definition of beauty rather than pretending people don't care about it, Dove is, in my opinion, helping women, NOT hurting them. The desire for beauty isn't going to go away anytime soon - women have literally been using makeup since antiquity - so I think we should support efforts to expand the definition of it.

I like the Dove ads. To me, they acknowledge something that most beauty ads do not -- that the reality of women's lives do not match up with beauty industry standards. I think just acknowledging that is HUGE and can only lead to better things. The mere existence of the Dove ads starts to chip away at the lie we've been told that we must all look like sex goddess supermodels. Now that Dove has stepped out of line with their advertising, a crack in the industry's facade has been revealed -- they no longer have a united front for lie-telling. I think that in the end makes it easier for women to reject unattainable standards. If everyone's telling you to get Botox or a boob job, you might actually do it -- but if there's even one voice sending a different message, that might change things in your head, especially for young girls.

I like the Dove ads. To me, they acknowledge something that most beauty ads do not -- that the reality of women's lives do not match up with beauty industry standards. I think just acknowledging that is HUGE and can only lead to better things. The mere existence of the Dove ads starts to chip away at the lie we've been told that we must all look like sex goddess supermodels. Now that Dove has stepped out of line with their advertising, a crack in the industry's facade has been revealed -- they no longer have a united front for lie-telling. I think that in the end makes it easier for women to reject unattainable standards. If everyone's telling you to get Botox or a boob job, you might actually do it -- but if there's even one voice sending a different message, that might change things in your head, especially for young girls.

Thank you, sarahd_lush & raginfem, I feel like you truly hit the nail on the head for me :)

How is it that my parents were successful in breaking through this illegged impenetrable media control over my self-esteem? I like this commercial because it is encouraging discussion BEFORE the media onslaught should take place in a child's life. I may not respect the company as a whole...as I don't with tobaccoo companies...but that doesn't mean the message becomes inherently bad because it is put out there by the companies that participate in the behavior they are advertising against. It just means a parent is responsible for eventually enlightening their child on that sad fact once they are old enough to grasp that concept. I agree with you sarahd_lush...I like seeing money being spent by Dove to promote this message. However, that means neither that I agree with the company as a whole nor am I then immediately brainwashed by that company because I like the ad.

We can agree that Dove is being hypocritical, but I also have to agree with some of the comments that it is a commercial I would love to see mingled with others on primetime. I have seen giant billboards with women over 50 (gasp!) in underwear advertising Dove stuff - and I couldn't stop staring. I actually thought to myself "Whahh? Really? [smile] About time!" Bringing women of all shapes and sizes into the public gaze sends a powerful message and argues against the fallacy of what a woman is supposed to look like. Besides, I love the UN-aspect of the commercial with all the different ethnic groups.

Unilever, on the whole, is a decent company. They've done public health/hygiene campaigns, partnered with international development agencies, they a leader in developing products for lower income markets by putting them into smaller per-use packages, and they also are pretty proactive in terms of environmental sustainability.

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. They are trying to sell us beauty product, but I agree with sarahd_lush & raginfem. If Dove can help to expand the current definition of beauty for young girls, that's great.

Of course, I'm not really sure how Axe fits into all of this corporate responsibility. Unless it really is to warn us ladies off the douchebags (sorry ProFeministMale :), there's an exception to every rule).

I agree wholeheartedly with Allytude. What about our sons? Why aren't we focused on instilling them with an appreciation for natural beauty and looking past physical "imperfections"? After all, why do women care so much about smooth skin and botox and anti-aging cream? Because men expect their women to be skinny and young, just like the women they see in magazines and advertisements. If women did not have the societal pressure from the opposite sex to look a certain way, would any of this even be an issue?

Dove's ads are very appealing because we want to believe that 'they' want to help 'us'. Unilever/Dove's market research found that today's young women are turned off by guilt-inducing beauty ads, and are drawn to ideas about empowerment and activism. Hence the Campaign for Real Beauty: it's a response to the market's preferences, nothing more or less, to me. They had to figure out a way to shill this, and appealing to our desire to reject beauty standards (whilst consuming beauty products)seems to be working. But is it better than the alternative(s)? Sure! I guess... although the headf*ck that is the Pro-age anti-ageing line takes some logical leaps. Sure, you can age baby...just don't look like you are.
Finally, to respond to sarahd_lush's rhetorical question, yes - to some people, bleaching/waxing and makeup does make you less of a feminist. If it doesn't affect your perception of yourself, then great and fine. But some would argue that your personal choice to avoid frizziness/scaliness comes from wanting to identify with success and power; in our culture, the pretty, sexy woman is preferred. I just wanted to point out that while the vogueish definition of feminism is 'whatever I want it to be', there are those of us who really feel that these areas are incompatible.

"Sure, you can age baby...just don't look like you are.
Finally, to respond to sarahd_lush's rhetorical question, yes - to some people, bleaching/waxing and makeup does make you less of a feminist. "

Damn, that's harsh.

Okay, it took me a couple minutes to figure out why I had a negative emotional reaction to this statement: "yes - to some people, bleaching/waxing and makeup does make you less of a feminist"

That puts women in quite a bind. If you reject the dominant cultural ideal and don't wax, you are rejected by mainstream society. That sucks.

If you enact the dominant cultural ideal and do wax, you are rejected by fellow feminists who now have their own set of body ideals you must conform too (i.e., don't wax or you are not a feminist). That sucks.

It's a lose-lose situation.

It seems like a really tough line to walk - combatting the prevalent body ideals versus respecting women's right to make their own choices about their body, even if they align with those prevalent body ideals. I don't really have an answer for that one.

TheSlant and allytude, I think women are much harder on other women than men. My husband is the LAST one to notice if I have pimples, stretchmarks, wrinkles, etc., and even then it's only because I've pointed them out. Girls and women are notorious for tearing each other down. I really don't think guys care that much. I appreciate the message going out to young girls--I see way too many of them in my job, even at very young ages, overly concerned with their appearances. And even as girls, they're not showing off for the boys. They're showing off for each other.

(Man, I'm glad I'm not in middle school or high school anymore.)

I just want to strongly recommend the KILLING US SOFTLY series. It's EXCELLENT!

GO WATCH!!!

I definitely get the attitude that if you want to help a cause, you should donate directly. On the other hand (like the product red stuff), I was going to buy my best friend an ipod anyway, and if the cost is the same (sometimes it's not), why not buy the one that contributes to the AIDS fund? If you're going to buy soap and lotion anyway, why not buy the soap and lotion that gives money to a worthy cause? I mean, going out of your way to buy this stuff, isn't really great philanthropy, but if you can make a little difference by purchasing the stuff you always do, I think that's a good thing.

Also, though there are ulterior motives, I'm still glad to see ads that actually portray an array of body types, ages, skin colors, etc. Women over 50 with their skin out in the open being portrayed as beautiful helps, even if it is there to get you to buy facewash. Again, since they were going to try to get me to buy skin cream anyway, they might as well do it with women who look like real people, instead of porcelain skinned, eight-foot tall, unbelievably-skinny-with magically-giant-gravity defying-breasted women, who also happen to be generally white with blonde hair and who've never had a blemish in their lives.

Also, for the "pro.age" anti-aging stuff, I'm not sure how I feel about the wrinkle cream, but mature skin and hair actually does need more moisture to keep it healthy and protected. I don't think companies should be slammed for having special lines created for older skin any more than they would need to be for having a line of acne products. Different skin/hair types need different treatment.

But some would argue that your personal choice to avoid frizziness/scaliness comes from wanting to identify with success and power; in our culture...

My personal choice to avoid scaliness (and dandruff for that matter) comes from wanting to nourish and protect my largest organ. Scaly skin is not healthy, and it doesn't make me less of a feminist to use body lotion, even if it is mango scented.

sarahd_lush, i completely agree.

a capitalist economy isn't fueled by rainbows and unicorns and hugs; people are always going to be trying to sell you shit, that's how it works. accepting some degree of self-interested advertising as a given, i'd rather said advertising communicate a positive message.

I want to say up front that I don't watch commercials on TV. I rent shows I want to see, so I'm not beaten over the head with ads quite as much as your average American and thus am less likely to grow to hate them. That being said, I see these Dove ads as a positive force. They ask people to think about advertising rather than mindlessly consume it, always a good thing. While Dove does sell beauty products, they have taken the approach of offering them, but not requiring them. They actively reject the idea that there is one kind of beauty or that you are some how sub-human and unlovable if you don't participate. I'd say advertising a product without deliberately exacerbating insecurities and demanding conformity is a pretty huge step. Particularly since taking this tactic steps outside of tried and true marketing and invites criticism.

I also don't get, and kind of object, to all the hate towards anyone that uses a certain product such as Axe. Yes, the ads are stupid and offensive. Why is it when women buy into the idea that they must do X to be attractive and acceptable, they are victims of the beauty industry but when men do the same, they're just douche bags? It's still trading on insecurities and wanting to be wanted. (cue Cheap Trick song) The idea that men have to employ certain tactics to get women to like them, otherwise they're not Manly and consequently become social pariahs, is still damaging to self-esteem. I don't subscribe to the double standard that woman's insecurities are awful but men's insecurities are funny.

Completely off topic.

Roni, you're artwork is amazing!!!

I highly recommend Ted Chiang's "Liking What You See" (collected in Stories of Your Life) for a fictional take on this topic: It concerns a treatment that negates the brain's ability to rate attractiveness.
There's a specific comment by one character on the beauty/drug analogy: Normal everyday beauty is coca (a pleasant stimulant that makes the day pass a little better), the stuff that comes out of the glamor industry and fashion magazines is crack.

"I'm not convinced that flashing 30 images of slender women coupled with a couple negative ones is any better than an ad just flashing 3-4 images of slender women."

The point is that they're ALL negative images. I broke out into tears as soon as the montage of images started. What those ads do is emotional abuse.

And fuck Dove for co-opting. We're not stupid.

"Unilever, on the whole, is a decent company."

I have to disagree. Any company that participates in the racist health hazard that is skin bleaching in Africa and Asia is on the "not decent" list in my book. (See Wikipedia and National Geographic for more about skin bleaching.

As far as this commercial goes, it means that I hold Dove in higher regard than I do some other skin treatment companies. That's not saying much. The commercial is great, but it is, at the end of the day, a marketing ploy. They hope that we will buy more Dove products because they make nice videos.

And for whoever said that everyone uses deodorant and lotion, I beg to differ. I haven't used deodorant in years (allergy). I put some cornstarch in sweaty places, and call it a day. No one has ever told me I smelled, not even the people I asked to do so if it was a problem, like my mom and my best friend. I didn't use lotion for years, either. These are not human needs that Dove is fulfilling. They are manufactured needs that Dove is (along with the rest of the beauty industry) creating. I'm not saying that deodorant and lotion aren't nice, but don't confuse "pleasant luxury" with "necessity". Capitalism is all about getting you to consume, to keep the machine moving and the profits flowing.

I'm definitely of two minds about the whole Dove thing; on the one hand, I don't think that because some branches of a corporation do things I disapprove of that everyone in that corporation thinks the same thing; on the other hand, being the one company that doesn't tell the same lies is a branding strategy. When a market is as full as the beauty industry, it makes sense for them to distinguish themselves, in order to get at a share of the market that is cynical about the beauty industry. At the same time, I'm sure they mean it and a brand isn't necessarily just a brand -- it can have positive content -- so you know, it's better than nothing.

UCLA, is what I said really 'harsh'? It was an honest answer to that enquiry. To some women who came to feminism at a different time, the actions and behaviours we're talking about have different meanings. I wasn't slamming the poster or saying she couldn't call herself a feminist. And I don't think that women who identify as feminist have to look a certain way or reject makeup altogether. I guess it comes from wanting to recall and revere our more radical sisters who DID reject female body norms at a time when it seemed absolutely necessary to the movement. I think it's worth remembering and considering why they thought it was important to reject these practices.
cheers.

This is worse than regular beauty ads because Dove is hocking the same products, only doing it as if they are somehow looking down on the very industry that they ARE. Anyone who can't see right through those "Natural Beauty" campaigns is obtuse. Personally I hope one of their cold-blooded capitalist competitors strikes back with a campaign insinuating Dove is the brand for fat and ugly girls. It would be nothing but cruel but at least they wouldn't be faking it like Dove is.

Also any sister who supports the myth of beauty by purchasing corporate makeup and cosmetic products, fancy lotions and cremes is a sell out buying into the idea that women are unfit to be in the presence of men unless they are cosmetically altered and made-up to fullfill the role of prostitute. Down with bougeois cosmetic capitalism.

You know why I buy and wear lotion? Because my skin is dry and itches unbearably if I don't. You know why I wear light make-up? Because I like the way it evens my skin tone and makes it blend more smoothly with the color of my hair. I wasn't aware that this meant I was "a sell out buying into the idea that women are unfit to be in the presence of men."

Jeez, talk about knee-jerk reactionism. Some of these posts are as judgmental and awful as anything every posted by a man who thought women belonged in the kitchen. Women are autonomous adults, capable of doing things because they please themselves, and not for men at all. Why do you assume that the things women do are for men? Because you think women can't do anything for themselves?

To all self-righteous feminists I say: Unless you know for sure (because I've said so) that I'm doing something to please a man, back the hell off. You don't know anything about my motivations, my thought processes, or my decisions. You don't know anything at all, so you're in no position to sit back and cast aspersions. Don't assume you know about me just because we both have vaginas. You don't. Make your own decisions for your own reasons, and let me make mine. I'm not hurting you.

This is OT, kinda, but Karen- cornstarch really works? Do you just rub some on your armpits?

I do think that Epitome's judgments are kind of harsh - as women, and as feminists, we face pressure every day. It's not our fault, so don't blame us! We all make our concessions to this world we live in, whether it's makeup, or clothes, or whatever. Doesn't mean you can't call someone out and ask them to consider the implications of their choice. But to really call someone a "bad feminist" isn't cool. Or accurate.

That being said, I SO admire women who just buck all of the beauty standards. Impressive. Me, not so strong as that.

UCLA: Thanks! Though the site is sad and un-updated for my web comic has eaten my brain. Which is somewhat on topic as we've been recognized as having 3 dimensional females characters! One of whom doesn't wear makeup!

I only wear makeup a few times a year b/c everyday use is simply not worth the hassle to me. But I think it's fun to put makeup on sometimes, just like it's sometimes fun to dress up or to drive a fancy car. The problem occurs when people feel they aren't fit to be seen in public w/out their makeup (I'm sure everyone knows at least one person who won't even let her significant other see her sans makeup). The problem occurs when a regularly-bathed, clean-clothes-wearing person feels disgusting w/out a layer of powder-rainforest-flower deodorant on. The problem occurs when we live for our beauty products rather than the other way around.

I don't watch television, so my exposure to commercials is limited to those I see linked on YouTube (probably why I love commercials--people only link to cool and clever commercials). And I like the Dove ads I've seen b/c they're clever. If they were stand-alone shorts instead of commercials, I'd be totally unconflicted in liking them and their messages.

But Dove's primary interest isn't to improve my self-esteem. It's to make me think buying their beauty products makes me a "real" womyn, a non-hypocrite, someone who's not shallow or looks-obsessed. It bothers me that the same company is trying to improve my self-esteem, lighten the skin of Indian and African womyn, and make boys think that smelling ghastly (really, have you ever smelled Axe?) will make womyn jump them.

I guess if the ads have to be made (which is disputable), why not make an ad w/ a positive message?

Oh how I hate the argument that women who wear make-up do so for the guys, or because we are 'sell-outs.' I happen to like eyeliner. I wear it for MYSELF. Because I want to. It has nothing to do with me trying to fulfill some guy's fantasy of a prostitute for fuck's sake.
And "Personally I hope one of their cold-blooded capitalist competitors strikes back with a campaign insinuating Dove is the brand for fat and ugly girls. It would be nothing but cruel but at least they wouldn't be faking it like Dove is" just. pisses. me. off. Women, not Dove, would come out the losers. This is taking it to grade school level - yes, let's shame Dove for daring to show the fats and unglies cuz we know they sure as hell don't belong on ads...you know, I am gonna stop there. Let me ask all of you this: do you really think we are so damn gullible as to switch to Dove for every product from now on? Has anyone here decided that everything and anything Dove is fucking awesome and must be bought? Does having this discussion mean that I am more intelligent than all the women out there who simply can't figure out the hypocrisy and still be happy to see reps of the rest of the 95% of women on ads? You know, I actually find it funny (in a not so funny at all way)that I am defending American women's intelligence...

Jem, while I understand what you are saying- how can you say that you wear eyeliner only for you? I mean, you say you like it, which I get, but WHY do you like it? What about it makes you happy? I'm assuming you like the way you look when your eyes are lined. Is this just your own personal preference? Or, is it that you (like all of us) have been conditioned into one idea of what "beauty" is?

I'm not saying you shouldn't wear it, or that you aren't a good feminist, or anything like that. Just saying that it's never so easy as to say "I just like it." There are reasons behind our choices. For example, I'm getting laser hair removal. Am I a sell-out? Well, some people may think so. I know that the only reason I want smooth, hairless legs, is that I've been taught to hate my hairy legs. So yeah, it's my choice to get laser hair removal. But, it wasn't my choice to hate my leg hair.

I hope that made some kind of sense :)

If wearing make-up and jewellery and pretty clothes is all about looking good for men then...

what about when i get drunk and put on huge amounts of glittery funky make-up and puff my hair up and prance about the flat on my own in high heels and a bright pink tulle skirt?

I like eyeliners that match my clothes. Seriously, and I like having that choice, and I actually feel bad that men who choose to do so are really marginalized. In any event, I'd be a little bit more inclined to think of myself as conditioned if and only if I couldn't live without eyeliner, or lip glosses, or shaving my legs, or the myriad of other things I do. But I say Fuck it to everything quite a bit, and literally don't give a fuck if I am out an about with hairy legs and upset some guy (he he, that makes me laugh really loud...in my head) who happens to look, and I stopped having bad hair days in high school because I stopped caring about having bad hair days. But, I agree with you Buggle, yes, women are conditioned. Still, I draw a fine line between that and doing beauty stuff because we don't have a choice. I very much enjoy going back and forth on this whole make-up thing. Sometimes I can afford the time to add color to my face, sometimes I could care less. Once again, I am going to side on the side of autonomy. Or once again, maybe I am too idealistic.

so...everyone who buys a "beauty product" is a sell out. they are ALL for the sake of looking good in the presence of men? really? i am gonna play my bullshit card...

i have four male roommates...when i am at home, i am the farthest thing from a beauty queen ever. i go days w/o shaving until it gets too itchy, i rarely wear make up unless i am dressing up, and i have been known to lounge around in my pj's all day if i have no where to be. so. fucking. what.

i use lotion, everyday. why? b/c my skin gets itchy as fuck, and is dry as hell even though i live in a VERY humid climate, and drink 3 liters of water every day. i try hard to take care of my skin...it's my largest organ and the only one i get. i have also tried not using deoderant. i tried EVERYTHING from cornstarch (which works well for some people i hear), to the natural crystal stuff, to some stuff from a natural bath product line i like b/c it is mostly vegan and has no irritating chemicals or harsh scents. guess what? i SWEAT! a lot...and if i don't use deoderant AND anit-perspirent (which is what i was trying to avoid w/ natural stuff) i stink! so much so that i can smell it. (plus, it keeps my under arms from breaking out, b/c i shave, b/c i want to, and i sometimes get a rash...armpit hair and sweat are a great place to breed bacteria)
i like make-up. it's fun. i liked it long b/f i discovered boys were there. i also wax my eyebrows, not to accommodate some norm, or even b/c i don't like the way they look. i have my reasons. they are not for anyone to judge.
these things don't make us less of a feminist. i think that is defined in our own hearts. i am not saying i am right or you are wrong...but noone here is the ultimate authority on feminism, or why women choose what they choose. don't over generalize and assume that everyone is the same as you, or wrong.
i like the dove ads. it think it's a great place to start.

I love this dialog - it is so interesting to read everyone debate this relationship between personal beauty choices and feminism. I'd love to see more on this topic, ladies!

But just to be funny... My boyfriend uses Oil of Olay every day on his face because it has spf in it and wants to prevent wrinkles later on in life. In the shower, he uses Dove moisturizing body wash to clean his privies (I think purple is his current loofah color). And he gels and sprays his hair w/ some designer product that I don't even know about. Is he succumbing to a patriarchal beauty regimen as well? Or is that just a pointless question because he's a dude? I say it is a valid question because standards of beauty, for both men and women, have always been unrealistic. And the society we live in cashes in ($$) big time on those unattainable standards. Of course, women bear the brunt of it - no denying that one. And that, my friends, is the point of the Dove ad. Well... that and to convince people to go out and buy Dove products.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say that people who use lotion or deodorant, or shave or wax or whatever are bad feminists. What I'm trying to say is that humans lived for thousands of years without mass-produced, marketed, commodified beauty products. They used home remedies or other techniques, or lived with their natural skin/hair/teeth/whatever. And, yes, I like lotion better than lard, and toothpaste better than rotten teeth. I like eyeliner and glitter (though I think you make an excellent point, buggle, about why I like those things).

But I just don't buy the inevitability argument: there will always be beauty ads, so this is better than the others. This is better than the others, for sure, but the idea that "there always have and will be ads" is just not so. The beauty industry is not a requirement or an inevitability. And so I can't accept this ad as the best we're going to get. We can ask for more from society.

"Yeah, Rock Star, but they also sell 'firming' cream & all that 'pro.age' anti-aging stuff too. And some of their deodorant commercials tout the product's ability to give you smoother, prettier underarms. Yay! Another body part to obsess about!"

...and having skin as smooth as any of the models in the Real Beauty ads is practically an unattainable ideal for me.

"I don't like to have hair above my upper lip. Does that make me any less of a feminist? No."

For that matter, what if you couldn't grow any in the first place, and whenever you went out in public without a niqab your face looked like an unattainable ideal to some other women no matter what you did? That still wouldn't make you any less of a feminist!

"I agree wholeheartedly with Allytude. What about our sons? Why aren't we focused on instilling them with an appreciation for natural beauty and looking past physical 'imperfections'?"

Or better yet, focused on instilling them with a respect for people in general, even people whom they don't think look beautiful?

For example, consider employment discrimination against not-so-skinny women. I suspect that the "unsexy women can be hard workers too, don't judge job applicants by their sexiness" message may get across more than the "you should want sex with overweight women too, now won't you hire one?" message.

"But some would argue that your personal choice to avoid frizziness/scaliness comes from wanting to identify with success and power; in our culture, the pretty, sexy woman is preferred."

Do you realize that for many women, the personal choice to avoid frizziness/scaliness/hairiness means the personal choice to keep their natural looks instead of wearing and ingesting extra chemicals?

I mean, sure I'm Iranian-American and I don't like being pressured to look less Middle Eastern and have a smooth face. It's taken me laser treatments, anti-androgen drugs, razors, tweezers, etc. in order to do that. At the same time, I don't want to pressure a Korean-American woman to look less Korean and have a hairy face. For starters, she might need to take androgen drugs in order to grow any beard and moustache...

I think some of you are being very harsh on Dove. I mean, at least they are TRYING. They are taking a step in the right direction and taking some risks here (they are obviously going to alienate some of the population here, even within the feminist community, as evidenced here) but they're doing it, and kudos to them for it. They also use real women of different shapes, sizes, and colors in their ad campaigns which I find really refreshing and brave. This particular commerial is nothing short of brilliant to me and I loved it. Beauty products don't have to be limited to self tanners, mascara, and cellulite cream you know. They can include products that help your skin to be healthy, your hair to be healthy, etc etc. I use their products because they are quality products that are gentle and have helped my skin (I have really sensitive skin.)

I don't think it's that women perform beauty rituals *just* for men. Women are conditioned to do so for society as a whole, men included. Women are socialized to harshly judge other women on the basis of physical appearance as well. Maybe that's patriarchy's way of turning us against one another in competition for men...

No woman is immune to the pressure to be a sexbot. Lesbians aren't trying to attract men, but *all* women are practically required to do the beauty regimine thing just to be considered acceptable in this world. You don't get a free pass just because you're a lesbian, or a feminist.

JeanGenie: "UCLA, is what I said really 'harsh'? It was an honest answer to that enquiry."

Did my explanation of why I thought so make sense (see post at exactly 10:00am)?

I certainly see your point about how conforming to widespread beauty norms doesn't exactly seem like a bold move even if it feels personally empowering. But I am also not comfortable with the idea that women now need to conform to some new arbitrary standard (i.e., not waxing) in order to be considering "more of a feminist".

The exclusionary aspect of that sort of ideology is what struck me as "harsh".

dove is a part of a larger corporation and like any other corporation, the ultimate goal of everything that they do is going to be making money. no surprises there.

if you really want a scholarly, inspiring, and just overall uplifting critique of the beauty industry, read "the beauty myth" by naomi wolf. it literally changed my life.

Partaking in or not partaking in individual beauty rituals does not necessarily make one a better or worse feminist.

I think that feminists ARE required to examine the beauty mandate and their own beauty rituals, however. To understand that patriarchy affects people's decisions/behaviors in life and that nobody is safe from the poisonous messages society sends re: beauty & sex.

Roni, I do like what you said about Axe. They do have creepy, sexist, stupid commercials. But I really think it's petty to judge people on what soap brand they use. My boyfriend's mother bought him a bottle of Axe bodywash, and it actually smells really good, it exfoliates well, and the scent lasts for a long time, which is hard to find in a bodywash. It doesn't smell like cologne or masculine men or anything. In fact, I try to purposely take showers over there sometimes so I can use it. That doesn't make my boyfriend a douchebag, he knows that using Axe has no effect whatsoever on his attractiveness to women. And it doesn't mean I've been tricked by the beauty industry into falling for their bullshit. I think Altell commercials are stupid as fuck, for example, but their cellphone coverage is better than most. Deodorant, soap, lotion, all that scented stuff has nothing to do with anyone trying to impress anyone else. While it's true most men don't like the smell of armpits, most women don't either, and I do not want to go around all day smelling my own armpits when they could smell like Dove. It's the same reason I like perfume and the same reason I like scented lotion. Because I CAN SMELL IT TOO and I might as well smell like something I like all day.
As far as makeup goes, while the beauty industry and the media do have an enormous impact on beauty standards, it's ridiculous to claim that's the only source of human asthetics. Caring about your appearance is just like caring about what your car looks like. Everyone has their own idea of what is beautiful and they have the right to uphold that. And most of what we consider beautiful in people are signs of health (I'm talking about classically, not necessarily the standard shoved in our faces constantly by the media). When I get blemishes on my skin, I cover them up. I don't want sores on my skin, that's not pretty to me. I know it has nothing to do with my worth or importance, or that of anyone else, but if i can change it, why shouldn't I?
Hayo Miyazaki, the acclaimed Japanese animator, writer, and director, has been commended for using strong heroic young girls as the protagonists of his movies. However, he has also been criticized for making them all pretty. He responded by saying that he truly loved his characters, and when you love someone, you portray them as beautifully as possible, because that's how they seem to you. When I really think about it, at the end of the day I do what I can to uphold my own standards of beauty because I like myself and I want to be appealing to myself.
I can attest to the media's negative impact on women and men's sense of beauty, for instance, I am a healthy, normal weight, but I still stress and worry about the size of my belly, thighs, etc. I just don't like the idea that to be a feminist, you have to completely disown all "traditional" notions of femininity. We continue to stress that women's looks don't have anything to do with her abilities. We should keep up both ends of that statement.

"Hayo Miyazaki, the acclaimed Japanese animator, writer, and director, has been commended for using strong heroic young girls as the protagonists of his movies. However, he has also been criticized for making them all pretty."

You just reminded me of one of the Mononoke Hime movie posters:

http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/mh/mononoke_poster.jpg

Um, I think the Dove self-esteem fund (which made this ad) is very separate from the Dove company (which sells beauty products). Here are the people in charge of the ads:
http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.co.uk/dsef07/t5.aspx?id=8122
I don't think they work for Dove -- I think Dove helps sponsor their non-profit public service in exchange for the good press. It's a subtle, but I think, important distinction. This ad was not made by someone who wants to sell a product. All Dove wants from this ad (if it wants anything at all) is to develop a reputation for an inclusive definition of beauty -- something I can get behind. Some of the others-- the pro-age ads, for example--do stem from Dove, and sell products, but I think this is nothing but a public service announcement with sponsorship. Which I am cool with -- without sponsorship, this couldn't get seen, and it is an awesome ad.

eloriane...that was an EXCELLENT point, and i never thought about it that way. thanx so much for that! sponsorship would explain a lot!

I also want to say one teeny-tiny thing, about the ban on Size 0 models. I am a natural size 0. First, being so thin is not all it's cracked up to be- I'm freezing cold in normal air-conditioning, and I have a very hard time finding clothes made for adults that fit me. Secondly, I'd like to point out that starvation is ugly, not thinness itself.

"I also want to say one teeny-tiny thing, about the ban on Size 0 models. I am a natural size 0. First, being so thin is not all it's cracked up to be- I'm freezing cold in normal air-conditioning, and I have a very hard time finding clothes made for adults that fit me. Secondly, I'd like to point out that starvation is ugly, not thinness itself."

Thanks for adding those points. It's not just a matter of "unattainable imagery in the media" vs. "realistic bodies in real life."

Your body is 100% realistic for you, and when you go out in public the sight of you might be unattainable imagery to me (I don't want to be size 0 but I'd probably envy something else about your looks), and when I go out in public the sight of me can be unattainable imagery to a 3rd woman (I'm 5'6" in flat shoes) and so on...

hehe. mina, i guess you can be pretty with blood on your face, too.

After poking around at Dove’s girls self-esteem web site, I have nothing but positive things to say. It’s packed with quizzes, workshops, and activities that kids can do on their own or are designed specifically to be done with a (female) parent. The activities include many deconstructing and feminist conscious raising activities that I did in college feminist groups (eg where to our beauty standards come from, how do they make me feel, how can we change our thinking/behavior). The information is extremely palatable, and incorporates great, achievable physically mental and physically health exercises. The layout is constructed in much the same way Cosmo and popular glossies are, but with a positive message. This, I think can attract and educate some who are unfamiliar with or frightened of the term feminism, but can now learn its empowering principles. (And as people become familiar with the patriarchal industrial complex, at a younger age, they can act and achieve more throughout their lives. They won’t have to be 25 before they deconstruct these issues in college or in the work force, but as pre-teens can alter their behavior before it becomes institutionalized, work from a healthy mindset, and can recognize and tackle interlocking systems of oppression by the age when most of us 3rd wavers were just starting to learn the jargon of the women’s movement.) Also, the mother/daughter activities are great bonding tools (building a matrilineal legacy!) and make older women evaluate their conformity to and reinforcement of beauty standards. It’s a great starting place—that a company this big is supporting these issues, and as the corp becomes more aware, its employees become more aware, their consumers become more aware (who will inturn become the corps employees) the business can deconstruct other elements of oppression—enviro concerns of their business (from testing to dumping to product growth and the lives that impacts), fair wages, health care, globalization, race and sexuality constructions and rights.

The only downside is that this is all female- and heteronormative-focused. There is nothing specifically designed for fathers/daughters, fathers/sons, or mothers/sons, (although there is some great platonic girl/girl info—how to not degrade other women). Granted the activities aren’t gender specific, but there are no males represented in the pictures—and we all know how visual representation effects participation. It ignores the negative impact of beauty standards on boys—inter and extra personally, and ignores the responsibility of men who create(d) and perpetuate negative body standards. That said, I think this is an important campaign that, if consumers and employees take the initiative, can improve beauty standards and resolve the conflicting business and social practices.

This dialog is a great example of the positive impact the campaign is already having!

I'm a transsexual woman, so maybe I see this a bit differently. It's not just the beauty industry, it's the whole social discourse that decides what is acceptable to look and behave like as a woman - and you step outside that at your peril. It took me ages to realise that the media was not portraying the reality of women (yes, ok, ok) But in terms of beauty industry and products, we've had Julie Bindell, a well known selfstyled feminist telling transsexual women that their need for sex reassignment surgery was foisted on us by the medical profession Puhlease. And when it comes to faces, I've spent something like 40k$ on surgery and electrolysis to get rid of the male markers. Am I suffering from false consciousness? Or am I correct in preferring not to have urchins shout "tranny" at me in the street? I think women in general have a lot more sense than some of the comments credit us with. I've thought long and hard about every product I use, and every surgery I've had. I don't need someone who doesn't understand my life telling me I'm a fool.

J7Sue, and others, I agree. You shouldn't have to reject every single cultural notion of female beauty to prove that you're a great feminist or that you're not a slave to the patriarchy. I'm thin, I have full lips, and I have some of the thickest, dark, long eyelashes you've ever seen. Why is it wrong for me to want to play up my eyes or my lips? And, like DrkEyedCajn, does it make her a bad feminist if her body happens to have aspects of the cultural ideal? UCLA characterized it really well: I'm a bad woman if I don't partake in beauty rituals, but I'm selling out if I love my eyelashes and want to make them stand out by putting on a little eyeliner.

The Dove campaigns certainly elicit a reaction with each new commercial, and as another poster said, the dialogue is a great thing. Of course we're struggling with the notion that a company that sells body-improving products can also offer counsel about avoiding the anxiety that comes with body-improvement projects. From the comments I've read here and elsewhere, it seems to me that L'Oreal et. al have been supremely successful in convincing their customers that they're 'worth it': that cosmetics and beauty products are tied to empowerment, and the daily search for one will lead to the other. What does it have to with feminism? Depends what you're doing: if you're interested in championing the literacy of girls who are forbidden from attending school (or something of this ilk), then it doesn't really affect anything, does it? But if you're interested in gender construction, identity politics, and capitalism (for example), then your attitude to beauty & related practices becomes more important, and the way you see it fitting in to the discourse(s) of feminism more so.