Take away his Peace Prize and kick him down a flight of stairs.

Oh, come on, lighten up. He's just paying her a compliment. I'm sure it made her feel special--just how I feel after getting honked at while crossing the street in a skirt. They just think I'm pretty, right? [/sarcasm]

Reallllly didn't like the Dalai Lama comment, either. But I guess when you're on a roll, you're on a roll, eh?

You know, I spend enough time on Fark and other tasteless websites to normally find those kinds of wisecracks funny... but much like the "George Bush looks for WMDs under the sofa" thing, it's pretty damned tasteless to tell jokes like that during the middle of a freaking catastrophe.

Something world-leaders, movie-directors, and pundits need to learn about liberal viewers: unless you're Monty-freaking-Python, death isn't funny.

"Please, please, how can men armed to the teeth be scared of this petite, demure, beautiful woman?"

Well, he is right there... I mean, there certainly is good reason to be terrified of broad, fat, aggressive, ugly women. They should be kept in the confines of their home whether or not they are political activists.

*Sigh*

It just shows just how seriously people take issues impacting another part of humanity.

makes one want to cry.

Yeah, that's annoying.
I just wish we had more female spiritual leaders with the wide recognition and respect of the Dalai Lama, the Pope, and Archbishop Tutu.

Good grief, please take this in context. I'd be disturbed if Howard Stern said it, but this is Archbishop Tutu - who knows something about grace, handling extreme political situations, and being an international spiritual messenger. It's more of a statement about her power and importance than "ooooh she's cute."

um, annoying maybe... but archbishop tutu is a pretty amazing guy and it's important to take things in in context.

i mean, the archbishop has been at the forefront of struggles for the people for longer than most of us have been alive.

further, even if you read that tabloid article, you'll see that it's one statement out of several others, including "We want to salute our sister Aung San Suu Kyi, who for 11 of the last 17 years is under house arrest." he clearly understands the gravity of the situation in burma - probably more than anyone reading this blog, considering that he lived through and struggled with an oppressive regime first-hand for much of his life.

further, understand that he said Aung is his ONLY pin-up, which lampoons the idea of a pin-up from a man who, no doubt, looks down on the objectification of women.

we're talking about a man who was reported on speaking at the WSF as follows [courtesy of Ekklesia]:

The Archbishop says that men must acknolwedge that it is often they "who have made a mess of things". He cites the issues of global and domestic violence in particular, pointing out that while all have "fallen short of the glory of God", macho cultures and expectations have played a dangerous role in many societies.

comparing this man to bush is really quite ignorant. he has put his own life on the line on numerous occasions in order to protect the liberty and dignity of others...

we're talking about an african anglican bishop who is oft-quoted championing lgbt rights (don't know if y'all know how uncommon that is)...

as far as his dalai lama quote, you must understand that deeply spiritual people tend not to take earthly things too seriously.

for his part, the dalai lama chose to honor tintin (a french comic book character) and tutu at the same event, i'm sure no doubt inspired by the similarities in their names.

i mean, really, have you ever heard either of those people speak. they're both hilarious.

and, yes, we need to vault more female spiritual leaders to the front (such as pema chodron, bell hooks, sr. helen prejean, sr. priya, rabbi malka drucker and so on), but we should not disparage those men who have walked the walk since before we could walk.

peace and blessings,
p

Wow, guys. Pick your battles. If you're offended by what he says about the dalai lama, obviously you haven't heard him speak. My fellowship with other feminists ends at their sense of humor (or lack thereof).

Perhaps this would have had more impact if you had already expressed some concern for Aung San Suu Kyi and what was happening in Burma and not ignored the events there along with most of the liberal blogoshpere.
http://jonswift.blogspot.com/2007/09/burma-schmurma.html

I am totally with the previous three comments. While I understand how his comments can sounds offensive, and probably would be coming from someone else, I really believe they need to be taken in the context of the speech and the speaker.

"Take away his Peace Prize and kick him down a flight of stairs." Um...this is so hateful!!! Before you go into rage and preach hate, please, know what and who you are talking about!

I agree with everyone who said it needs to be taken in context.
Tutu is an amazing man and, as puckalish said, he champions LGBT rights.

I grew up in South Africa and Tutu is ... well ... extraordinary.

I saw what he was like in the early post-apartheid days (and now). I have a great deal of respect for him. He is all about peace and equality.

I agree with everyone who said it needs to be taken in context.
Tutu is an amazing man and, as puckalish said, he champions LGBT rights.

I grew up in South Africa and Tutu is ... well ... extraordinary.

I saw what he was like in the early post-apartheid days (and now). I have a great deal of respect for him. He is all about peace and equality.

I agree with everyone who said it needs to be taken in context.
Tutu is an amazing man and, as puckalish said, he champions LGBT rights.

I grew up in South Africa and Tutu is ... well ... extraordinary.

I saw what he was like in the early post-apartheid days (and now). I have a great deal of respect for him. He is all about peace and equality.

Oops, sorry for the triple posting.

Uh, you know... Tutu and the Dali Lama are actually very close personal friends. Christ.

Of course, that should have been "Dalai" Lama and not "Dali" Lama. My bad.

Really though, these quotes seem like they're entirely out of context. I think we can safely give Desmond Tutu the benefit of the doubt.

Just a couple of quotes about homosexuality from Desmond Tutu lifted from his wikipedia page:

"Jesus did not say, 'If I be lifted up I will draw some'." Jesus said, 'If I be lifted up I will draw all, all, all, all, all. Black, white, yellow, rich, poor, clever, not so clever, beautiful, not so beautiful. It's one of the most radical things. All, all, all, all, all, all, all, all. All belong. Gay, lesbian, so-called straight. All, all are meant to be held in this incredible embrace that will not let us go. All."

"...Dr. Tutu has increased his criticism of conservative attitudes to homosexuality within his own church, equating homophobia with racism. Stating at a conference in Nairobi that he is "deeply disturbed that in the face of some of the most horrendous problems facing Africa, we concentrate on 'what do I do in bed with whom'"

I agree that the quote was taken out of context. I initially read the pin-up comment the way puckalish characterized it. Even assuming that it wasn't taken out of context, in light of the way that Tutu has championed GLBT rights and women, I think it could be seen as a one-off, completely forgiveable gaffe.

My fellowship with other feminists ends at their sense of humor (or lack thereof).

Please don't play into the stereotype that feminists have no sense of humor. I can see how taken out of context that comment would be offensive, and it doesn't mean feminists don't have a sense of humor. Granted, it was taken out of context, but I still don't think that taking a shot at other posters' sense of humor is a good way to respond to that. (Just like I don't think 'Take away his Peace Prize and kick him down a flight of stairs,' is, either...though my spider sense is telling me that could have been a sarcastic response. Damn the internet and it's crappy conveyance of tone!)

I thought the joke was going to be that George W. Bush could also fill up New York's Central Park...and he doesn't even speak English properly.

For the record, I said it was "annoying". As a human being capable of emotion and reaction, I can be annoyed with something without calling for a feminist revolution to take the guy down. Look, just because someone's liberal doesn't mean that they can't ever say something along those lines between annoying and offensive. How many times has someone apologized for doing/saying something racist and followed the apology by saying, "I have black friends"? Seriously, this website is about putting a feminist analysis to current events and issues. I don't know how many times the "see, feminists don't have a sense of humor" has come up because someone has dared to criticize someone or something that other posters believe should be exempt from criticism. I don't see anything wrong with Ann raising the issue for us to think about. I don't have to be charmed by a stupid joke just because the person who said it is smart.

isfa, I don't think anyone was criticizing your comments specifically. And I certainly agree with what you have to say, but I don't think comparing his comments on Kundun to a racist saying something like "I have black friends" is accurate. I'm willing to bet that Desmond Tutu knows a lot more about racism than anyone on this website.

As I said before, he and the Dalai Lama are good friends. They know each other personally. His comment is a far cry from justifying prejudiced statements against an entire race by saying that some of "those people" are your best friends.

If you've ever seen them together before, you'll know that they make fun of one another all the time. That's what friends often do.

pineapple... aaaaaaand /sarcasm

I didn't intend to suggest through my analogy that I thought Tutu was making a racist statement, or that I think he was being mean to his friend. He's obviously someone who has done a lot of good in the world, and I have a lot of respect for that. All I was trying to point out is that when someone DOES say something racist or sexist or xenophobic, we shouldn't refrain from analysis just because they're "on our side" or because they're friends with the person their comments are directed at.
It really bothers me that when people try to raise a critical perspective or generate discussion on issues like the one Ann presented (i.e., an issue that isn't life or death but is still interesting), people are so quick to dismiss the discussion as evidencing a lack of humor. The whole point of this blog is to discuss and analyze a whole range of feminist topics- some serious, some more marginal.
Personally, I wasn't bothered by the statement about the Dalai Lama but I did find the statement about a person whose human rights have been violated to be a little odd and, yes, annoying (even if they were good friends). I know it was a joke (har har har), but it's just a weird thing to say about a serious situation and an important, courageous and revolutionary person. It somehow came across to me (and perhaps Ann and others) as perhaps trivializing her impact by joking that a sweet little woman can't possibly be threatening. (I doubt he actually believes that.)

My original point, though, was that it does really make me sad that there aren't more female spiritual leaders. Mother Teresa is the closest I can think of, and many feminists have been critical of her unswerving obedience to a patriarchal church and her opposition to birth control and abortion. The way it is now, the Pope and Dalai Lama CAN'T ever be women. I really long for the day when women can share equally in those positions of leadership and spiritual service.

i wrote some long things, but i think it can all be summed up with:

i'm all for holding people accountable to what they say, no matter who they are.

however, it is my firm position that archbishop desmond tutu said NOTHING WRONG. he was praising aung for being one person, among many others, who, "[with] nothing except her moral authority..." is causing "a military dictatorship [to be] running dead scared."

this is not only the wrong person to be critical of, but it's the wrong THING to be critical of. his point was clear and correct and still is.

again, archbishop tutu wasn't making a joke, he was making a point - the point being that, in a world so obsessed with military might and macho ideas of power, one woman with a right mind and right action and commitment can take entire armies.

that said, i think you're right about organized religion. tends to be a big load of shit. there are many buddhists who don't even believe a woman can take the bodhisattva vow, there are many anglicans and episcopalians who believe that a woman cannot be a priest. (my estranged maternal grandfather left the episcopal church, in fact, for the anglican church when the episcopalians started ordaining women)

in spite of all of this, there are still many, many female religious leaders with a lot of clout, a few of whom i've mentioned above...

you can also check out st. frances cabrini, hazrat babajan, amma, zaynab al-ghazali, mary baker eddy, but still, these folks are just a start...

i think it's wild, too, seeing all these women listed in one place... all stream-of-consciousness, seeing as some of them have wildly divergent views (thinking particularly of putting al-ghazali and eddy right next to each other...)

Yes, it is important to not criticise people when they something offensive just because they are a good person and, yes, of course it's good to present this stuff for discussion but ...

It is also very important to remember to take the quote in context. What else did he say?
Was he using the comment to make a point?
Just writing it off as an offensive comment without analysing the rest of the speech is a bit iffy really.

Unfortunately, taking things out of context is something a lot of theorists/academics/people looking to generate discussion etc do and it makes me sad.

Can we please focus on the crisis at hand?

Reports from inside Burma suggest that hundreds have now been killed. At least 700 monks have been imprisoned. All by an illegal government.

The last time a protest like this occurred, the death toll was in the THOUSANDS .

So stop bickering with each other and DO SOMETHING.