On the most recent episode of PBS's "To the Contrary," the panelists discuss, "Feminism Interrupted: The new push to get more Generation Y women involved in feminism."
Host Bonnie Erbe: Jane, is the internet now the primary tool that's drawing young women into feminism?Jane Hamsher (of Firedoglake): Oh I believe that it is. And I believe that's largely due to the failure of many feminist institutions to reach out to young women in a real way. Organizations like NARAL have become insider and cliquish, and are making insider mistakes like endorsing Joe Lieberman, who said it was OK for a woman who had been raped to have to go across town to get emergency contraception.
I certainly agree that the online feminist community has stepped into a void that the older feminist organizations have been unwilling (in some cases) or unable (in other cases) to fill. But it's funny she would single out NARAL, which in my opinion does a pretty damn good job with online outreach. That's definitely not where I would start pointing fingers.
Later on, there's this:
Eleanor Holmes Norton: ... This generation is not a movement generation. I believe the feminist organizations are indeed attacking exactly the issues these young women are interested in, for example abortion -- these young women would be 100 percent there -- and homosexual discrimination. That's not the problem. The problem is they don't identify -- they do their own thing. They have the underlying values of the feminist movement. We don't have a right to say, look, if you have our values, you must also take our name. Let them do their thing, their way. Be happy they have adopted your values.
I think if the online feminist community has proved anything, it's that we are a movement generation. I participated in feminist actions on my college campus, but that felt more like a club than a movement. I worked for a women's rights nonprofit, but that felt more like a day job than a movement. I went to rallies and marches, but they felt more like one-off events than a movement. It took blogging here, and being part of a community of feminist bloggers, for me to really feel like part of a feminist movement. To feel I was part of a group of people, committed to a set of ideals, who are working day in and day out to advance those ideals.
I really wish Bonnie Erbe had had a young feminist on her show to articulate that, because I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. Overall, I was really disappointed by the show. How hard would it have been to have one woman in her 20s be part of the panel?
There's a lot more discussion fodder in this segment, but I'll stop there for now. Transcript and video are after the jump.
Host Bonnie Erbe: Jane, is the internet now the primary tool that's drawing young women into feminism?Jane Hamsher (of Firedoglake): Oh I believe that it is. And I believe that's largely due to the failure of many feminist institutions to reach out to young women in a real way. Organizations like NARAL have become insider and cliquish, and are making insider mistakes like endorsing Joe Lieberman, who said it was OK for a woman who had been raped to have to go across town to get emergency contraception.
Erbe: But Ellie Smeal of the Feminist Majority has done this show many times, I know for example that they have a huge campus outreach section. Is it not working?
Hamsher: I think there's also a temperamental difference in generations, where younger women didn't experience, until they get out into the workplace and find out what the real world is like, what their mothers went through. I think that's just a process of maturation. But they also have a sense of real ownership of their bodies and their personal space that I think is sometimes kind of shocking to another generation.
Erbe:What's the most successful example on the web of getting young women, who obviously are as a rule "techier" than their mothers and grandmothers, involved in feminism?
Hamsher: I think it comes from addressing women's issues.There are 20 million unmarried women who are not registered to vote in this country. Women's Voices Women's Vote has been really successful in trying to reach these people, to find out why it is they don't register and don't vote. Trying to get contraception in rural areas where pharmacists won't dispense it. Addressing the issues that they care about. And that's largely happening on the web, where people can be responsive to what the concerns are in an immediate way.
Tara Setmeyer (conservative commentator): I think the feminist movement is going through what the civil rights movement is going through. There's been an evolution in what seems to be important and what's going on in the generation now, Gen Y, versus the elder. I found it fascinating that the woman in the clip said the older feminists feel as if the younger generation don't appreciate the foundation they've laid for them. There's a similar dynamic going on within the civil rights community, too, where there are certain issues we're fighting for now that weren't the same back then. So how do we draw the young generation into the civil rights movement that makes it relevant and applicable to today's issues? And I think that's a challenge. I don't think there's a lack of interest, or a lack of enthusiasm for the issues that are important to us, but there may be a disconnect...
Eleanor Holmes Norton: ... This generation is not a movement generation. I believe the feminist organizations are indeed attacking exactly the issues these young women are interested in, for example abortion -- these young women would be 100 percent there -- and homosexual discrimination. That's not the problem. The problem is they don't identify -- they do their own thing. They have the underlying values of the feminist movement. We don't have a right to say, look, if you have our values, you must also take our name. Let them do their thing, their way. Be happy they have adopted your values. They're doing it a whole lot more than you're doing it. They're in the workplace a lot more. They're reaching for things you never would have reached for as a 1960s and 1970s feminist.
Michelle Bernard (IWF): I love what you just said, because if everybody in the feminist movement, whether they call themselves feminists or not, would share a similar philosophy, we might not see the same dichotomy. To me the big question today is, what is feminism? There's a whole organization of young women that call themselves "third-wave feminist" and they fight the word, because they feel that second-wave feminists fought for them to enjoy a certain amount of rights, and they do that, and then they hear from another generation, "well how dare you opt out and stay home to raise your kids? You're a traitor to the feminist movement." Well if somebody's going to tell you that, why would you want to take that badge on?
[CUTS OFF]
Here's the video. The "young feminist" talk starts about halfway through:
And an audio version is here.
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I dunno... I certainly don't think the more powerful women's organizations have reached out to young people much. The last time I was exposed to feminism from an organization was when I was a Girl Scout in middle school.
I mean, it's shocking how often I have to explain to friends/classmates that my feminism doesn't mean I'm a man-hater, etc., etc. I think if feminist organizations made better attempts to educate the public as to what feminism actually is, I wouldn't have to have that conversation as much.
I'm definitely not pointing the finger at Feministing here. You are all wonderful and do a great job of fighting stereotypes, and I love you for it.
Another thing bugging me here, on why she thinks young women don't need feminism:
Hamsher: I think there's also a temperamental difference in generations, where younger women didn't experience, until they get out into the workplace and find out what the real world is like, what their mothers went through. I think that's just a process of maturation...
Oh yeah, because it is SO EASY to be a teenager and a young woman in this culture, especially if you have half a brain. Trust me, I don't have to lose out on a big promotion to know what it's like to be underestimated for being female. She has no idea what goes on in high schools and colleges across the country, does she? Nope, workplace discrimination is SPECIAL.
As a 41 year old feminist, I have to say that organizations such as NOW and NARAL haven't caught my attention lately like feministing and other similar blogs have. I agree with Ann that I feel more a part of the feminist movement just by reading this blog than I have in a long time. It's not just for twenty-somethings!
I think that national organizations such as NOW and NARAL try to educate women about feminism but there are so many societal forces that contradict what feminists say that it's difficult to get the message through.
Keep up the great work you do, feministing! I look forward to reading your blog every day.
Aw, december, you can't imagine how great the bloggers here feel when we read comments like yours. Thank you!
As an 18-year-old feminist, I think young women (and young people in general) are actually desperate to feel like part of something, anything. You wouldn't have kids clamoring to join up with abstinence and church groups if that weren't looking hard for something to belong to. Among my peers, when someone finally gets the feminist message or the liberal message, I've seen that often they'll become committed and even zealous in a way I don't usually see older folks doing. Maybe that just has to do with being young?
What I do see older people doing is a lot of blabbering about Why Don't Kids Care and "It's up to your generation to save us from climate change!" Ughhhh
I wanted to add: definitely blogs are a giant resource for communicating with young women. Feministing, along with a few others, played a huge role in my coming to feminist consciousness.
Thank you so much December. Sometimes it feels like older feminists (or feminists older than me, anyway, I'm only 24) treat younger feminists as though we're lazy or we just don't get it. It makes me angry. Is it my fault I wasn't alive when women's lib was going on??
Mainstream feminist organizations have been terrible about organizing and promoting young women's issues since at least I was in high school and college during the late 80s/early 90s. The Baby Boomer leaders of those groups were terrible about even hearing young people's voices, much less shaping policy goals in an inclusive manner.
It wasn't until the Internet that I started hearing young women's voices in a meaningful way. I do know that there are decent bridge groups, but they've been a long time in coming, and I still feel like the Baby Boomers have been stingy and unhelpful in terms of grooming feminist leaders -- or any woman leaders -- for tomorrow.
The right has been much better at reaching out to young women. Not that I like either one of them, but both Anne Coulter and Michelle Malkin came to prominence because they were groomed to take on the spotlight. Why has the left not done this? Why, when Gloria Steinem and Jane Fonda started a radio network, did they promote themselves and not the women who would have the radio shows? Why do the mainstream organizations, the Feminist Majority Foundation, NOW, NARAL, PPFA, etc., not have their own feminist version of YearlyKos?
There's a reason why the Baby Boomers don't conceive of young women as being part of a movement generation, and that reason is that the feminist movement stopped caring about the participation of young women as anything other than protest attendees and fundraising contacts. Feminists get told what to do enough -- they don't need to be told what to do by feminist organizations.
It's why I'm enternally grateful for feministing and feministe and the sistren of other feminist blogs and websites. I may not agree with everyone all the time, but they are places where I can feel like someone else gets the concerns of people who aren't still reveling in their stale achivements of the 1970s.
I'm sorry, but, are you saying that this was a panel discussing women in their late teens early twenties, "Gen Y" and the feminist movement, yet they failed to have even ONE woman of that age on the show? There are plenty of young women feminist leaders out there, and any of them would have greatly contributed to that discussion. Why do they insist on speaking for people that, by their own admission, they aren't even interacting with? Yet, they wonder why feminist-minded young women aren't flocking to these groups. Ummm...
The Baby Boomer leaders of those groups were terrible about even hearing young people's voices, much less shaping policy goals in an inclusive manner...It wasn't until the Internet that I started hearing young women's voices in a meaningful way.
ekf, exactly! I was about to say the very same thing.
Blaming feminist organizations for not explaining that being a feminist does not mean you hate men is ridiculous. All feminists are explaining this all of the time because it is the primary weapon of the other side to state that we are all man hating bitches. Oh yeah, and we're ugly and can't get laid - as if that were hard or something.
It's totally my dream that one day Feministing will be organizing the feminist version of YearlyKos. How great would that be?
There's a reason why the Baby Boomers don't conceive of young women as being part of a movement generation, and that reason is that the feminist movement stopped caring about the participation of young women as anything other than protest attendees and fundraising contacts.
This is so true. Another piece of that puzzle is that the reality is that organizing protests isn't the only way to "win" the game. My generation has also grown up with a view that the picketing/etc... hasn't been effective, or hasn't been the most effective way to get things done. I am not saying that that isn't an approach the movement should get rid of, but there are different forms of effective activism.
There's a reason why the Baby Boomers don't conceive of young women as being part of a movement generation, and that reason is that the feminist movement stopped caring about the participation of young women as anything other than protest attendees and fundraising contacts.
This is so true. Another piece of that puzzle is that the reality is that organizing protests isn't the only way to "win" the game. My generation has also grown up with a view that the picketing/etc... hasn't been effective, or hasn't been the most effective way to get things done. I am not saying that that isn't an approach the movement should get rid of, but there are different forms of effective activism.
So many great comments, I agree with pretty much everything that's being said. One thing that people who look at our generation and say "Why aren't you out protesting?" seem to miss is that when we do, we don't get a whole lot of media coverage, so maybe it's just that you're not hearing about it? It's not the 60's anymore.
Grace Slick once said, about why she didn't involve herself in the feminist 'movement' that it seemed like "a new spin on an old tupperware party".* Maybe that's how it's being seen now, and why something different, like Feministing, is more appealing.
*Anyone who doesn't know Grace Slick's music beyond Somebody to Love and White Rabbit, or questions how kick-ass she is should immediately check out the song Lawman by Jefferson Airplane. Or there's this video from youtube of her singing "Better Lying Down" - not in her best voice maybe, but it's a damn good song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MumDkR0FT0c
After leaving the bubble of the women's studies department at my university six years ago, I have pretty much felt like a lost puppy in search of a feminist home. I would love to feel as if I am part of a movement, but usually the closest I get is when my new issue of Bitch magazine comes in the mail and I get my bi-monthly reminder that I'm not alone. (even Bust has left me feeling alienated lately). I feel so fucking lonely as a feminist so much of the time...It's only in recent weeks that I've discovered feministing and it has really been a ray of hope. While I am aware of the presence of organizations like NOW and the Feminist Majority Foundation, somehow the unification begins and ends with a monetary donation. So it seems, anyway. I may be a bit of a late bloomer when it comes to web saavy, but I feel more sense of community and movement, in recent weeks than ever.
jane, I understand that every feminist has to fight those stereotypes. I'm just saying that, in my real life outside this blog, it'd be nice to not feel so alone.
I didn't go through the entire transcript, but in terms of feeling less like a "movement" generation, I have to wonder if it's partly because people of our generation tend to think of the internet as the end-all of activism. You see an injustice, so you blog about it (the universal you, not personal you).
Speaking personally (and I by no means am suggesting that my experience is universal), while part of me likes being part of the online community here and at Kate Harding's blog and elsewhere, my blog only reaches about 10 people, all of whom agree with me anyway. While it's great to add my outrage to the chorus of voices, I want to *do* more, and I feel somewhat at a loss as to how to get involved in the real world and help make a difference. (Where do you start? Who do you talk to?)
Btw, I'm not saying this is Feminism's Fault. I think it says more about how introverted I was in college and how I didn't really wake up to the external world until about a month before I graduated. Now I feel like it's too late, even though I know it can't be since I'm only 23. Ugh!
Yay thread derailment!
I never thought of NARAL as an organization that was suppose to inform society about feminism. I thought they were supposed to do political work.
I'd rather have a bunch of feminist organizations doing different thing with different members and audiences than trying to make every organization the same: with the same goals, same members, same strategies. Plus, it's not like all these organizations are made of money and have nothing to do but try to combat societal messages regarding feminism.
"This is so true. Another piece of that puzzle is that the reality is that organizing protests isn't the only way to 'win' the game. My generation has also grown up with a view that the picketing/etc... hasn't been effective, or hasn't been the most effective way to get things done. I am not saying that that isn't an approach the movement should get rid of, but there are different forms of effective activism."
Indeed. We're not exactly fighting the last war here...
Young feminists, and not so young feminists, are attracted to the internet. At 42 years old I fall on the cusp of baby boomer, and I don't know...Gen. X? Having not been born in the US, I defiantly am neither. I have, since I was sentient, called myself a feminist. I have fought my own little battles, and won, around feminist principles. But always on my own. Until I found Feministing I never felt I could be part of any feminist organization. They all seem like old girls' clubs. Insider organizations. They don't want new people, new opinions. Like another writer, I too get the requests for money but that's the only input they ever want. They know what they are doing, no input needed. Like NARAL supporting Joe Lieberman, what the h*ll were they thinking...Anyway, that you Feministing for finally offering something which I can be part of.
I don't feel that this is a movement. To me that would require actual movement. I'd rather be working, physically, protesting, rallying, working hands-on with women and girls, and educating. I have always found talking - though extremely beneficial and important to discuss all issues! - to be essentially useless and pretty frustrating. I don't feel that I'm accomplishing anything solid. I'd rather be hands-on. I'm waiting for the full-fledged revolution, where I can just take to the streets and demonstrate like a madwoman! Or I'd rather be vocally educating, talking to people face to face. I think I'm just old fashioned in some ways.
By that I mean I don't feel that I'm accomplishing anything solid just by posting a comment on a website. But I am one of the people who is dedicating her life to the "movement" and empowering others, so I'm looking forward to making a much more significant mark.
Gah! By "life" I mean that's what I want to do as a profession. I don't mean to sound mean here. :/ I'm just tired!!!
For me, it is a movement. Posting, having discussions, and reading others' posts keeps me sharp for when I'm not surrounded by essentially like-minded people. It keeps me attuned to inequalities and injustice so that I am quicker and more eloquent in calling it out.
There have also been numerous letter writing campaigns (however informal) started by this blog and other feminist blogs, information posted about rallies or feminist events around the U.S., and these blogs are an excellent forum for connecting women to other feminist people. It creates momentum within the community, b/c, though we may not feel it in our daily lives, we do have strength in our numbers and we encourage and support each other, however implicitly, in calling bullshit when we see it and inspiring different ways to effect change in our daily lives and our own communities.
Blah, sorry for the back-to-back posting, but I also wanted to point out that we are able to provoke different thought processes, point things out to each other that maybe before we hadn't considered, and we are able to critique how we frame our ideas and opinions. This helps us to be better at framing things for people who may not identify as feminists to get them to understand where we are coming from.
My best friend believed at one point that she would never embrace the word feminist or align herself with those beliefs b/c of how feminism was framed for her. Being able to exchange ideas can change how you think you feel about something. She is now a loud and proud believer in the rights of women, and her eyes have been opened the the daily injustices women suffer through.
This is my huge valentine to Feministing, the women who run it, and the women who post here. I love this place.
As a second wave feminist myself, I'm impressed with the young generation coming up. The young feminists I've met through my work with the CWLU Herstory Project have been highly motivated, well informed and a pleasure to be with.
My generation grew up under a much more exaggerated version of the patriarchy and I don't want to make light of the many painful battles we fought in the 1960's and 1970's. But today's young feminists are fighting the rightwing backlash that began as a reaction to our efforts and that can't be easy either.
Another thing I've noticed about 21st century young feminism is that is more multi-racial than we ever were...a major step forward in my opinion.
I think feminists of my generation sometimes forget that it wasn't all bread and roses in our youth. The times really are "a changin" and strategy and tactics have to change with them.
Of course, in the future today's young feminists may look back on the early 21st century as "the good old days" and do their share of grousing about those young feminists "who just don't get it".
Then again maybe the generations will finally learn to share their experiences without all the awkwardness that hinders genuine communication.
Now that would be something to stick around for...
As a second wave feminist myself, I'm impressed with the young generation coming up. The young feminists I've met through my work with the CWLU Herstory Project have been highly motivated, well informed and a pleasure to be with.
My generation grew up under a much more exaggerated version of the patriarchy and I don't want to make light of the many painful battles we fought in the 1960's and 1970's. But today's young feminists are fighting the rightwing backlash that began as a reaction to our efforts and that can't be easy either.
Another thing I've noticed about 21st century young feminism is that is more multi-racial than we ever were...a major step forward in my opinion.
I think feminists of my generation sometimes forget that it wasn't all bread and roses in our youth. The times really are "a changin" and strategy and tactics have to change with them.
Of course, in the future today's young feminists may look back on the early 21st century as "the good old days" and do their share of grousing about those young feminists "who just don't get it".
Then again maybe the generations will finally learn to share their experiences without all the awkwardness that hinders genuine communication.
Now that would be something to stick around for...
After leaving the bubble of the women's studies department at my university six years ago, I have pretty much felt like a lost puppy in search of a feminist home. I would love to feel as if I am part of a movement, but usually the closest I get is when my new issue of Bitch magazine comes in the mail and I get my bi-monthly reminder that I'm not alone. (even Bust has left me feeling alienated lately). I feel so fucking lonely as a feminist so much of the time...It's only in recent weeks that I've discovered feministing and it has really been a ray of hope. While I am aware of the presence of organizations like NOW and the Feminist Majority Foundation, somehow the unification begins and ends with a monetary donation. So it seems, anyway. I may be a bit of a late bloomer when it comes to web saavy, but I feel more sense of community and movement, in recent weeks than ever.
i very much agree with hissyfit here. i too have felt very alone since i graduated college (second major in women's studies).
i was elated to find feministing a few months ago, and i read it daily. it helps me feel at least a little less isolated. i had contemplated getting my masters in poli. sci. and going to washington to lobby for organizations like NOW. i wanted to be big time. but, that wasn't really my passion, and i tend to cry when people get angry with me (not a good trait for a lobbiest, i'm sure). instead, i listen to my mother talk about the old days, and how bad things suck now. but after finding this blog, and others like it on livejournal, etc. i realize now that things don't suck now. they just aren't the way they used to be when my mom was in college.
and i very much agree with others who've already said that while it may not seem like young feminists are very active, i feel that blogging and making a statement on the internet is a huge step forward. while rallies and marches used to hit the headlines all the time, the media just doesn't care much about that sort of thing anymore...so the messages they're sending don't travel very far. on the internet, however, our voices are heard around the world. and, sure, just talking may not seem very active...but smart, educated discussions can change minds easier than force feeding facts and percentages down someones throat.
how depressing. I find it rather offensive that they're saying feminist bloggers aren't reaching people when you see new people everyday on this and other boards. Maybe someone like me is having trouble attracting people to her blog, but I'm just one person. Feministing, Pandagon, feministe, and many others are sites with combined writers and helping eachothers site in the blogosphere, on the INTERNET, one of the few interactive places available.
Also, the interview comes off a little as a blame game. "those young women" aren;t creating a movement.. blah. Kinda makes you feel like you haven't been doing anything eh?
Protests, picketing, etc., have always felt like feel-good social institutions to me rather than a way to make change. My generation (X/Y cusp) was raised on Baby Boomer narratives of how the activism of a bunch of white college students instigated a social revolution that was as much about sex, drugs and rock and roll as being against war or for civil rights. (Feminism didn't really get cred, because the feminists weren't as "fun" as the hippies.)
As such, in college there was a subgroup that would go to pretty much *any* protest and treat it as their turn to have a big outdoor party. To say nothing of the ISO and other "professional protesters" that showed up to hijack the message of these events. All these protests (with the exception of Take Back the Night and Amnesty International candlelight vigils) were really, *really* bad at getting a coherent message out, and never seemed to accomplish a damn thing.
i tell a lot of people, both male and female about this blog. i know a lot of smart young people who i feel just don't have a good background in what feminism is these days. to me, it is still very much a movement, but it cannot move in the same ways as in the past. i think there is a lot of good to be done by the spread of ideas and information and i am thankful to the authors here for taking up that mantle.
i tell a lot of people, both male and female about this blog. i know a lot of smart young people who i feel just don't have a good background in what feminism is these days. to me, it is still very much a movement, but it cannot move in the same ways as in the past. i think there is a lot of good to be done by the spread of ideas and information and i am thankful to the authors here for taking up that mantle.
I saw the PBS segment (To The Contrary is one of my favorite shows) and enjoyed it; however, I appreciate the insightful comments. I have so many comments I want to make I don't really know where to start, since this is a topic I think about a lot!
In reponse to "I am not saying that that [protest] isn't an approach the movement should get rid of, but there are different forms of effective activism," I completely agree. While protest can be powerful in a variety of ways - to stand up and be heard, to get people talking, to show that there is dissent when perhaps assent is simply assumed, to push an organization/governmental body to change, or even simply for personal expression - I think that protest without other forms of action can be meaningless.
Two years ago when many immigrants and supporters of immigrant rights took the streets to protest immigration "reform", many of my high school students chose to leave school and join the protest. When asked why they were protesting, many didn't really know what they were protesting, what they wanted to see happen, or how protest can be effective. In Houston, it seemed to me that there were huge protests and then... nothing.
Granted, the protest did spark a lot of conversation, which can push people to think critically about the issue and hopefully incited some of them to action, or to vote differently, or even to treat people differently. However, I didn't see a marked change in the quality of my students' - most of whom were immigrants - lives. Nor was there any effort on the part of the city to even begin to make changes that would improve immigrants' quality of life.
Protest needs to be coupled with other forms of action, such as boycotts or voting or law suits or education or lobbying or any number of other tools of social change. Otherwise, it can turn into a lot of yelling with no tangible results.
Um could it be that older generations are giving the newer ones enough credit?
I always thought feminism wasn't just about protesting or voting. Young people, across the board don't vote as often as older people for various reasons. I personally have gotten very turned off by most of the people running for office in my state. The last time I voted I had to pick between two white guys with mainly the same racist/sexist viewpoints. Yet I am not at the point yet where I have time and money to be part of a huge political party or run for election. I think feminism can also be about living as a feminist and not buying into this sexist culture. Our generation is doing that. We are the first generation to graduate from college at higher rates then our male peers. We are the first generation to start delaying pregnancy and marrying later in life. We are starting to get paid more and demand more from our employers, as well as starting our own businesses.
There are alot of things that are misguided about our generation as well, lots of young women are turned off by the pro-choice movement because they have been brainwashed by conservatives. Lots of women are also turned off by feminism because they see it as extremist. Alot of these older groups like Ms. and Now could do alot to change these perceptions, but aren't reaching out to young women in a new and fresh way.
Few young women are calling themselves feminists not because they're "doing their own thing," but because a huge portion of the population has campaigned long and hard to make it a dirty word.
BTW, I just saw this on MetaFilter and it reminded me of this post:
http://www.metafilter.com/65168/Serious-Change-dress-like-youre-going-to-the-most-important-job-interview-of-your-life