Look at the bright side; breast-feeding mothers will no longer have to be subjected to triple-glazed quasi-pork chunklets and a spicy caesar salad served by a pod-person with 49 pieces of flair, including the dreaded "We're Not in Kansas Anymore!" button.

Being someone who's a bit or a glutton, there's not many restaurants that I flat-out dislike. Applebee's was one of those few, and now I have even more reason to boycott.

You know, I'm trying really hard to see this as a feminist issue, and I honestly can't. I'm all for sticking it to the man and organizing against the patriarchy and all, but... I don't really want to see some lady whip out her boob while I'm trying to get my burger on, either.

I swear I'm not trying to be combatative here, but could someone explain to me why these women shouldn't have to cover up? Applebee's wouldn't permit a man to expose his chest in their restaurants, either. Maybe it's because I'm not really a kid person, but the fact that a baby is involved doesn't make me any more inclined to support public nudity for either sex.

I'm sure this must have come up on Feministing before (I'm a relatively new reader, although I've always been a feminist), so I'm sure there are arguments for the other side, but I really can't think of what they might be.

Man with chest out = man with chest out

woman with breast out = feeding a child

It's not a matter of public nudity, it's a matter of being able to feed your child while maintaining your dignity.

although I would never willingly breast feed in public, I cannot disagree that at some point it would inevitably come up where I would be stuck in public with a hungry baby... so I don't take issue with public breast feeding, although I'm far too shy to do it myself, unless neccessary of course, which I would assume is why women breast feed in public.

on a side note- breast feeding a 7-month old!? god... I'm so not breast feeding past five months..and thats only if I have too... ugh!

Princesspajamas,
look at it this way, there are lots of things you may find annoying or irritable, but does your discomfort really need to impinge on someone brestfeeding their kid? I mean, I sometimes feel a bit uncomfertable if a woman is brestfeeding near me, but I still see it as her right to do so. It's not the end of my life to be a bit uncomfertable. It's not indecent exposure, (know your not saying that) or pointless nudity, infact, it's the only definition of meaningful nudity I can think of.

PrincessPajamas, I have to agree with you here.

First of all, they didn't "stop" the woman from breastfeeding - they just gave her a blanket to cover herself!

What's so terrible about that?

Did that mom really want random men staring at her bare breast while she fed her kid?

Beyond that, is it really appropriate to bring a small child into a proper restaurant (even if it is a casual dining establishment)?

Ever seen a toddler in a restaurant - especially one who's parents do not properly supervise him/her?

Crying, yelling, throwing stuff, making a mess (which some $ 4.30 an hour server or busperson has to clean up afterwards).

In any case, I see that Applebees has drawn the wrath of the La Leche League fanatics - and I'm sure the hue and cry won't stop until they're forced to apologize (for something that they were RIGHT to do in the first place).

norbizness, what is your problem with restaurant workers?

And I quote "...subjected to triple-glazed quasi-pork chunklets and a spicy caesar salad served by a pod-person with 49 pieces of flair, including the dreaded "We're Not in Kansas Anymore!" button."

First of all, I happen to LIKE the food Applebees serves - if you aren't into meat, you probably shouldn't eat there.

Second, those "pod-people" are hard working restaurant servers, who only get paid $ 4.30 an hour (and that's in New York State - many areas have an even lower tipped worker minimum wage) and who have to obey the company dress code and have the mandatory bright, perky attitude reqired as a condition of employment.

Imagine if YOU were forced to be cheerful on your job all the time - no matter how the customers treated you - and got paid less than minimum in return!!!

Judge not, lest ye be judged, norbizness!!

Because hungry, screaming infants are much less annoying than somebody discreetly breastfeeding. Enjoy your Fiesta Lime Chickenâ„¢, Crispy Orange Chicken Bowl, and Apple Chimicheesecake* in hell!

* All items on the Applebee's menu. I feel sick now.

Greg: Can't a brotha make an Office Space joke?

Frog Queen, I didn't realize that the kid was 7 months old - that's kinda odd.

Then again, there are some moms (with both the financial means to take a years-long maternity leave and serious boundary issues) who breastfeed 4 and 5 year olds - so it's only slightly out there on the creepyness scale.

As for being "stuck in public with a hungry baby", that's why God, and Abbott Laboratories, gave us Similac!!!!

haha i was just gonna totally gonna defend your awesome office space quote!! hahaha

To everyone saying "why should I have to see that?" The fact of the matter is this. There was a law in her state to protect her. She should not have been asked to cover up because in doing so, Appplebee's was not only being anti-feminist, they were BREAKING THE LAW.

Breast may be a sexualized body part, but at the end of the day, breasts have one important biological function. They exist to nourish a baby.

Finally, the World Health Organization recommends breast feeding for one full year. Many experts agree that breast feeding a 7 month old baby is not "gross" nor inappropriate.

Gregory, given the first half of your post, the last line is really completely hilarious. So thanks for the laugh.

Secondly, infants have a right to eat. Parents have a right to be in public (and I say this as someone who really dislikes being around children as a general rule). If a woman is breastfeeding her infant and it is time for the kid's lunch, she has every right to feed the child without having to be treated like she's doing something wrong. Breasts are made for feeding babies. Get over it.

Besides which, most women are very careful when breastfeeding. They aren't waving nipples around, they aren't ripping open their shirts and exposing both breasts to the air conditioning, and they aren't going out of their way to draw attention to themselves. If you can't deal with an adult woman doing what breastfeeding women with infants do, then maybe you should look the other way.

Am I the only one who finds the recent surge in hostility towards small children to be a feminist issue?

Given that women are still the primary caregivers on most families, the viceral resentment that I keep seeing aimed at small children is in effect also aimed at mothers who want to take their children out with them. What do you propose we do? Bar women who can't afford childcare from leaving their houses?

This seems to me to very much be not only an issue of sexism, but also of class discrimination. Not everyone can afford a nanny to tend to their children, some people actually have to/want to, god forbid, leave the house WITH their childen on occasion.

hey goddess, i never implied it was grose to breast feed at 7 months, it's a horrible damn strain on your body... my friend only breast feed her first child for 3 months cause she couldn't handle what it was doing to her nipples. ouch!

Lucretia: I support a person's right to take their children out in public (male or female). I would prefer, of course, that the child be well-behaved, but whatever, I can leave if I don't like the way they're acting.

However, I don't have to like them. I'm not a kid person. It doesn't make me a bad feminist, or against women who can't afford child care. I just don't like kids much. There are a few individual children that I like, but as a group the chances are pretty good I won't. I don't actively hate them, I just don't really want to have to have anything to do with them personally.

The two things really don't have anything to do with one another. You don't have to like children or want to have them around in order to support a woman's right to be where she needs to be with her kids. It's kind of one of those "I will defend your right to say it" kind of things.

Sorry about that, frog queen, I misinterpreted your "ugh." Glad we're on the same page.

My mother had to stop breastfeeding me when I was a child after one month because she developed a really painful case of mastitis.

“i never implied it was grose to breast feed at 7 months, it's a horrible damn strain on your body�
It depends on the baby and the woman. I know at least one woman (my aunt) who breastfed her two children for ever a year. As far as I can remember it was an enjoyable activity for both the mother and the child.

"Beyond that, is it really appropriate to bring a small child into a proper restaurant (even if it is a casual dining establishment)?"

Uh, I think it is, if y'all are hungry and can't find a babysitter. I also don't think "liking meat" has to be a requirement to eat at an Applebee's--I eat meat pretty much every day and I can't eat their food since it seems way too salty for me. Plus, they fucked up a chicken-fried steak. Seriously--it's fatty meat coated with God knows what, which is then deep-fried. How do you mess that up?

And on the whole "boobies in public!!!" thing--I guess I just can't qualify a breastfeeding woman as a participant as "public nudity".

1) The AAPA recommends breastfeeding for at least 18 months. The WHO recommends at least two years. Notice that these are MINIMUM ages, not MAXIMUM ages. A seven-month-old breastfeeding is not odd or unusual.

2) I never could breastfeed with a blanket. When I first started, I was awkward enough that I needed to look down and see what I was doing. After about a month, the baby just wouldn't tolerate a stuffy blanket covering her face - she'd pull it off.

Really, even without a blanket, there's not much to see. The shirt covers the upper breast, the baby covers the lower breast, and the head completely covers the nipple. The most anyone ever got to see of me was a little bit of belly fat on the side. In spite of this, I've gotten rude comments and stares - not because I was "exposing" myself, but because people were offended by the very idea of me breastfeeding in public.

I've frequently breastfed in restaurants. A breastfed infant is a QUIET, well-behaved infant - which is preferable to a baby screaming its head off in hunger.

I realize that children are not for everyone, and I respect that, but I don't understand some of the anti-child comments on this site. Why should I NOT bring my child to a restaurant, provided that the child is well-behaved? It is a public place.

For the 'Applebees was right' crowd:

Some babies - many babies - will NOT feed under a blanket. They squirm, cry, and throw it off. I don't blame them. They still need to eat.

Secondly, would YOU want to eat your food under a grotty Applebee's blanket? Yuck.

And thirdly, breastfeeding is recommended up to the age of eighteen months. I personally wouldn't do it after ten months/one year, and I admit to being quite uncomfortable at thought of breastfeeding kids who are old enough to ASK for it. But that's MY PROBLEM, and I don't expect anyone to alter their legal and natural behaviour because of my stupid hang-ups.

You do not have the right to walk about without being offended, or made uncomfortable. There are plenty of people out there who would get uncomfortable at the thought of eating next to a black family, or a family with gay parents, but we rightly tell them to go fuck themselves.

Lucretia, you are dead right about the feminist aspects of this issue.

I'm a bit of two minds about this, first that women should be able to breastfeed enfants wherever woman and their babies are. On the other hand, having nudity (even for a practical reason such as this) I always find a bit distracting. I think for me it depends on "level of exposure"... as in are you just seeing the "feeding breast"?... And now I start to sound crazy. Either way, eff Applebees! I don't think we have them here in Canada anyways.

Lucretia, I absolutely agree. I admit that I have wanted to bang my head when someone brings a fussy toddler in whos allowed to run amuck around a nice restaurant in the evening. Luckily it doesn't happen all that often. But yes I have noticed other peoples hostility towards children in restaurants, malls, etc.
Maybe there was always this sort of hostility I dunno, but it does worry me about the time when I go to have children.

"Am I the only one who finds the recent surge in hostility towards small children to be a feminist issue?"

No, but the insistence that it is is setting us back at least a couple of decades.

Feeding an infant is not a woman-specific act. Men can do it to, whether they do so with a bottle of formula or breast milk. And that being the case--the fact that a baby can be fed without being put to a breast--means that this is not a woman-only issue. Insisting otherwise emphasizes the idea that women's bodily functions matter more than what's between their ears. And that's bad whether the function in question is being a passive sex object, giving birth or breastfeeding.

I agree that breastfeeding is best, and I plan to do so myself when I finally breed, if I can. But the boob nazis are seriously out of control. The idea that a woman might have a say in whether or how she uses her boobs is beyond them.

What's even more frightening is that the La Leche League, among other boob nazi groups, has strong ties to anti-feminist groups. The mighty crusades about breastfeeding, natural childbirth and attachment parenting are the only arenas in which otherwise-liberal sorts have managed to jump feet first in bed with religious conservatives, and it's seriously creeptastic.

Breastfeeding, like any other activity involving the body, should be an individual choice. It should be forced neither on mothers nor on unsuspecting passers-by.

There is no necessity to bf without coverage. None. The only women who argue otherwise are usually the kind who have drunk the kool-aid that tells them that being a mother--especially a bf mother--is tantamount to sainthood, and so they want to show off how remarkable they are for having squeezed a child out.

I am 100% behind setting up lactation rooms in every public place--especially workplaces--in which a parent (of whatever gender) can quietly feed his or her child or pump or whatever. But I simply don't support the idea that people have the right to tote infants everywhere and whip out a boob whenever the fancy strikes.

It seems like these mothers want all the attention and privilege that comes with being a parent, but none of the responsibility--especially the responsibility of keeping your child from annoying the crap out of everyone else around you. Parenting means you have to limit your lifestyle. And that means scheduling outings only to baby-friendly places or scheduling them around feeding times. If you can't do this simple lifestyle adjustment, you have no business being a parent in the first place.

Okay, I was looking at the picture with the article, and I'm wondering. What do you think are the chances that her looks had something to do with it. I mean, she's not the body type that men usually drool over seeing naked, you know? I wonder if it had anything to do with the "I don't want to see that naked!" response?

If so, this whole thing is even worse.

I've known my share of women who've breastfed, and they managed to do it in a way that didn't cause a fuss. The way that woman in particular was carrying her little cards sounded like she was trying to pick a fight on the subject.

Thankfully, "nurse-ins/outs" do enough to give "lactivists" the reputation so many of them deserve. Kids have every right to eat wherever food is permitted, as do adults. But adults who slurp messily with their mouths open and such in public get talked to as well.

I do still find it interesting that a breast without a child attached is obscene or exploitative, but add a kid and you have a beautiful miracle of nature, though.

The manager was clearly wrong here, all else aside, he violated a state law he should have been aware of considering his position.

That being said, I don't understand the outrage at people being uncomfortable with breast feeding. It's something that, ideally, no one would bat an eye but it goes against our culture. Breasts are sexualized constantly, they're declared indecent, offensive and criminal. Something similar can be said of any other instance of an exchange of bodily fluids.

An exposed breast in a restaurant would be considered indecent and offensive. A baby feeding from it changes the context, but not the body part nor the cultural associations. Of course some people are going uncomfortable with that. Culturally we are trained Breast= sex = bad and indecent, subsequently Bad and indecent + children = OMG BAD!!!

It's a stupid, screwed up approach to breasts and nudity, but it's still how our laws, culture and media approach it.

The politics of breastfeeding are a nightmare because it's a natural, healthy, vital act that has all this screwed up baggage. Breasts should be a body with many function, not a sign post for sex. However, I don't understand all the anger and outrage leveled at people who are uncomfortable with breastfeeding. It's a reasonable response given our culture.

I don't have kids, so I have no hands on experience, but why is it so offensive to suggest someone discrete for the comfort of others? Not demand, threaten or give ultimatums, just ask?
I've seen shy acquaintances discretely breastfeed in crowded rooms, neither mother nor baby seemed the worse for wear, and most others were completely unaware of it.

I'm all for addressing and repairing how we addresses nudity, but why all the vitriol at people for a primarily uncontrollable response? The pro-breastfeeding stance seems to be that anyone must be completely nonplussed or fuck off and die. I don't get it.

Also, to The Trash Queen: so well said. I'd love to see lactation rooms with comfy seating and soft lighting everywhere.

And good to know I'm not the only one creeped out by the embrace of neo-con barefoot-in-the-kitchen influenced groups as a feminist ideal.

Being offended or uncomfortable is one thing, Roni. Expecting others to adjust to make you less so is another. When what those people are doing is perfectly all right (both by law and by the nautral relationship of a breast to an infant), it's not all right to expect other people to change so you can be less uncomfortable. That's the time when you have to suck it up, realize the world isn't about you, and get over yourself.

And, as has been pointed out here repeatedly, covering up the feeding infant is not always a possibility, so everyone should stop acting as if it's no big deal. If the kid won't have it, the kid won't have it.

"The way that woman in particular was carrying her little cards sounded like she was trying to pick a fight on the subject."

Bingo.

This isn't about the right to quietly feed your kid. It's about the "right" (and there is no such thing) to wave your leaky tit around as a badge of honor.

The only women who pull this stuff are women who have so little else to say for themselves that they feel compelled to squawk about how fertile they are. Yes, you gave birth. Yes, you can feed the kid. Yay for you. And yay for the other five billion women who can do the exact same thing. You are not unique. You are not special. And neither is your squalling poop machine.

Don't get me wrong--I love kids. I even love babies. What I hate is irresponsible, self-centered parents who use their kids as an excuse to be rude and inconsiderate.

trashqueen,

I see your point but the act of breast feeding is a women specific issue. A man feeding a child with a bottle will never be accused of indecent exposure.

I agree that biological determinism is a tricky area, but as long as the practical reality is that most women are care givers I think we need to work within that when we address issues as feminist. It's all fine and dandy to say that men should be impacted as much by the issue as anyone else, but in reality that's still not the case. And working in hypothetical ideals isn't going to do anything to actually help the women who face these issues right now, in reality.

I also agree that children should be taken to child friendly areas, but I think I might disagree with you on the definition of a child friendly area.

Interesting related story: You might be interested to know that Facebook just decided that photos of breastfeeding are obscene. They're deleting them and banning some users for posting them. The Lactivists are doing something about that too...

http://www.shamelessmag.com/blog/2007/09/facebook-defines-breastfeeding-as-obscene/

Jesus Christ, you people can be harsh. I don't like kids. Not even babies. But at least I don't have all this latent hostility for women who are trying to feed the kid. It's a breast. You have them, I have them, all women have them. We have nothing to be offended about. If you're offended by the sight of a tiny slice of breast that is currently being used by an infant, maybe you should spend more time thinking about your own attitudes than griping about someone "wav[ing] their leaky tit around." And who the hell has ever seen anyone do anything even vaguely resembling that?

I'm willing to be the woman was carrying the cards around because either she or someone she knows has had to deal with this kind of crap before and she wanted to be prepared. I'd probably do the same thing.

wow, just wow. Can't believe Trash Queen. The simple matter is that she had to feed her kid... I don't see this as a "barefoot in the kitchen" thing. Also your comment:

"The only women who argue otherwise are usually the kind who have drunk the kool-aid that tells them that being a mother--especially a bf mother--is tantamount to sainthood, and so they want to show off how remarkable they are for having squeezed a child out. "

this just sounds bitter to me. Get off your high horse. The women needs to feed her kid and standing up for right to do so, isn't "card-playing".

If you don't breastfeed, you get lambasted (by the government, no less) as not giving your baby what's best, as not making enough of a sacrifice, as failing as a woman in some way.

If you do breastfeed and you want to leave the house, your options are to feed your child when it's hungry and be accused of being some titty flashing exhibitionist attention whore, or you can hide in the bathroom and breastfeed standing up against the wall, or (even better!) crouch in a toilet stall to feed your child.

Nice choices, there.

Given that breastfeeding is worlds cheaper than buying formula, doesn't anybody see the class issues involved in shaming women who breastfeed their children in public?

Anyone?

Wow. I would not refer to breastfeeding, or sticking up for ya right to do it, as being "rude and inconsiderate".

Boobs do not freak me out, though I don't think they're approp at the dinner table just for the hell of it. (Well, I guess it depends what's going on at the time.) Breastfeeding does give me the creeps, and I once held a much stronger opinion on bfeeding in pub but reading all this brash negativity is totally softening me up. I see a lot of anger.

The fact is that our breasts are meant for feeding our kids. Man it grosses me out but to say "f*ck off you can't do that in here" because some people can't handle a boob - and could this be because sexuality is kept in such a corrupt and disgusting light in the US? Could it be our culture, what a mystery - I really feel is violating, well, a human right. As if women in this damn country didn't need to be told to adjust another something or other that comes naturally. It's not as if breasts are popping out all over the place and for the sake of sex, even. I haven't seen a woman breastfeeding her child in public for like YEARS and I live in a big city. These ladies are feeding their children and they've got a schedule to keep, don't they? Sheesh!

akeeyu, I see what you mean. I'd be interested in seeing a study for sure on the difference in breast feeding between wealthy women and women of little means.

I personally don't want to see or hear about breastfeeding, but as long as someone can be reasonably discreet there's no issue! I'm not saying women with feeding kids need to cover up and hide themselves. I've been in public restaurants with my boyfriend's daughter who breastfeeds her kid across the table from me, and there's nothing rude or bothersome about it. There's no coverup, there's no flying "leaky tit" (which is SUCH an offensive phrase, my god have some compassion already trash queen), there's just a woman discreetly feeding her child, who is very well-behaved anyway. Probably because she got to eat, too.
And what the hell is wrong with being discreet? I'll be polite if others will be too.
The only people who should STFU are the boob nazi's who can't handle simple reality, and also the breast-swinging breastfeeding nazi's who insist that everyone not only need to agree with them, but ENTHUSIASTICALLY proclaim the miracle of life. Gag me.

"I agree that biological determinism is a tricky area, but as long as the practical reality is that most women are care givers I think we need to work within that when we address issues as feminist."

Horse hockey.

The reality is that women do the most domestic labor, too. Does that mean that we should blithely ignore the fact that the vast majority of advertising for cleaning products is aimed at women?

Parenting is not a women's issue. Period. The more you try to insist otherwise, the more it reinforces the problem. If we want equality for fathers and for same-sex parents and for people who choose not to breastfeed, then we have to stop acting as if mothers are the only caregivers who matter.

Also, I simply must address this, which I missed earlier, because it is emblematic of the underlying problem:

"Uh, I think it is, if y'all are hungry and can't find a babysitter."

Is there some reason that you absolutely MUST go out to a restaurant to eat? Are you physically incapable of picking up the phone and ordering pizza? Do you not have anything in the fridge with which to feed yourself? Do you not have a partner or co-caregiver who can bring back takeout?

Just because it's legal to bring an infant to a restaurant doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Restaurants that specifically cater to children DO exist, and if you feel mightily compelled to leave the house for a meal, then there's nothing preventing you from going there.

And oh, poor you for not being able to get a babysitter. Shouldn't you have thought about child care BEFORE you got pregnant? Or were you just so thrilled about all the attention you were going to get for having a baby that the practical issues of that just never entered your head?

There IS a feminist issue here, folks: It's the issue of whether we're going to allow ourselves to be defined by our biological functions. The LLL is on this huge crusade to convince women that their highest purpose is to bear and raise children. We've been fighting this pressure for centuries. Why are we suddenly not only giving in to it, but arguing that it's a feminist act?

Essentialism is bunk regardless of whether it's telling us that we're only good as sex toys for men or mobile dairies for children. Parenting is important, sure. But if you've succumbed to the idea that being a mother is the most important thing about you--and if you are marching around, whining about your "rights" to take your infants to places they don't belong, then you have--then you are not a feminist.

We are not our vaginas. We are not our wombs. We are not our boobs. And we are not our children. Until we divest ourselves of anything that says otherwise--including the insistence that not being a bf, attachment-parenting stay-at-home mom makes you a bad person--we are setting feminism back.

Over/under on thread, considering current trends: 350 comments.

As many posters have pointed out, many babies do not like to have their heads/bodies covered unnecessarily by a blanket.

Last year there was a big controversy over a parenting magazine that put on its cover a nursing infant/mother's breast. The baby literally covered 80% of the boob, but still so many people were irate about this--why, because it gave a "hint" of the breast and of course its the imagination of the looker that really matters, not the "object" of interest really. Whether or not breasts are sexualized, they are functional. Unless were going to be locked in our houses by the American Taliban, women are fully human and have the right to take their children into society.

The other day in church a woman in the pew behind me was breast feeding. No one stared or criticized or in any other way tried to control her or stop her from feeding her child. It was NATURAL. I go to a progressive church, Unitarian Universalist, with a female minister who was herself a member of the La Lecha League and has spoken about it as part of her feminist awakening. The woman in church had her baby in a sling, and perhaps some of that fabric "covered them up" but she didn't use an additional blanket and quite frankly she shouldn't have to. Its all about community. The officious and narrow minded control freak prudes are the problem. Its usually the restaurant owners or the "administration" who has issues with breast-feeding. How many patrons are really that rude? Even if they do, it is their problem--they are dealing with personal issues of aversion to the natural processes of the body. I say, take off the blankets and breastfeed away. Have a copy of your state's breast feeding laws on hand and let's change things. Discretion is a slippery slope.

Um... maybe she was carrying that card because she knew that this has been an issue, and she wanted to be prepared to show her rights if questioned.

I am baffled by this debate. A woman wearing a low-cut top exposes more of her breasts than most breastfeeding moms, yet who's the one told to cover up?

Yes, I will probably try to use a blanket when breastfeeding my child in public. However I would NOT feel comfortable using one provided by a restaurant, and I also can't imagine wanting to use one if I'm warm, or if baby's warm, or if baby plain and simple refuses to use one (by kicking it off, etc).

It disturbs me that we can use women's nearly naked bodies to sell everything from condoms to toothpaste, yet using your boobs to feed a baby in public? SO NOT COOL! My god, what is wrong with our culture?

trashqueen,

you come off as completely bitter and that makes your entire arguement sound completely hysterical.

"And oh, poor you for not being able to get a babysitter. Shouldn't you have thought about child care BEFORE you got pregnant?"

in a perfect world Trash, we would all have the benifit of being able to consider child-care before pregnant. I dunno if you know this, but sometimes people get accidentally pregnant!! shocking i know. and sometimes given surrounding circusmstances, people are unable to get an abortion for whatever reason, and end up with a child before they could ever consider the possibility of childcare...

honestly, you just sound bitter. This is a simple issue with a simple god damn answer and you come off as someone who hates kids and hates others for having them. I dunno why your evening bothering to talk about equal parenting... men don't make milk from their chest...

"Given that breastfeeding is worlds cheaper than buying formula, doesn't anybody see the class issues involved in shaming women who breastfeed their children in public?"

Given that pumps can be rented for free or cheap from many agencies and that bottles in which to store pumped milk are also cheap, no, I don't.

You don't have to actually put the kid to the boob every time in order to feed it. No. You don't.

Having a baby involves a massive lifestyle change, and that includes drastically limiting the time you spend at restaurants, theaters and other places where kids don't really belong. If you're not willing to work your outings around your kid's feeding schedule, then don't have the kid in the first place.

The idea that anyone has a "right" to take their smelly, noisy children anywhere they please is the height of arrogance. 35 years ago, my parents would never have dreamed of taking me, well-behaved or no, to a restaurant. Ever. They carefully scheduled evenings out for just the two of them, and made childcare arrangements for me, and enjoyed their evening away from my stinky ass. When did parents get so rude and inconsiderate that they don't do this anymore? When did we lose the idea that adults have the right to have adult spaces?

"The fact is that our breasts are meant for feeding our kids."

Um, no. They're not. Unless you're also going to argue that your mouth is only for eating and our vaginas are only meant for periods, penises and birth.

Where did all this essentialist garbage suddenly come from? Yeesh.

"The idea that anyone has a "right" to take their smelly, noisy children anywhere they please is the height of arrogance. " -Trashqueen

Sounds like someone's a baby-hater!

Trash Queen, I don't know where you're getting this stuff, but you are blowing it all out of proportion. Nobody is claiming that women are nothing more than our breasts, vaginas, wombs, or children. But the fact of the matter is that women do have children, women do breastfeed, and they should have the right to do so without being hassled.

And your whole "no children in public" stance is completely and totally baffling. Believe it or not, children are people too. (And I can't believe that I, of all people, am here having to defend the rugrats). Children have a right to leave the house, and parents have a right to take them to places that don't necessarily involve plastic ball tubs. The idea that there is something wrong with taking children into public is so totally outside anything even vaguely rational that I cannot understand where you're even coming from.

Insisting on your right to breastfeed your child is not defining yourself solely as a mother, nor is it asking for a parade because you chose to give birth. A woman who has a child is a mother, however, even if she is three dozen other things besides. And if she wishes to breastfeed her child, that's going to involve her and her breasts. Doesn't mean she's solely defined by them, but they are necessary equipment for the task.

Just as, when I wish to have sex, I can do so using my vagina without being solely defined as a sex object, and without having my vagina be the be-all end-all of me.

You're having a little trouble separating the act from that which defines a person, I think. Which is, come to think of it, the same thing that makes people say a girl who has sex casually is only good for sex. They can't separate the act from the person either.

And yes, adults have the right to adult only spaces. They're called over-21 establishments, and if you're that worked up about it I suggest you limit yourself to those. If there's a Fox and Hound or a Baker St. Pub and Grill in your town, you should be well set. Good food, no kids. Enjoy yourself.

It seems to me that most people who object to public breastfeeding do so because it offends their "delicate sensibilities". Oddly enough I was unaware of a moral or legal obligation to avoid offending people in public. If someones perfectly legal public behavior offends you, I suggest you learn to look away and ignore it.

Man, it's not even noon and the thread's been Godwinned.

Trash Queen, I find it interesting that you say "Until we divest ourselves of anything that says otherwise--including the insistence that not being a bf, attachment-parenting stay-at-home mom makes you a bad person--we are setting feminism back." and in the same comment declare that women with children should stay at home and not darken the doorstep of fine eating establishments.

Don't get me wrong, I think poorly behaved children should be taken outside, not because the existance of children in a restaurant is some shameful thing, but because NOBODY should be allowed to scream and throw things in a restaurant, no matter how short they happen to be.

I'd much rather have the woman at the next table in a restaurant be quietly breastfeeding a child than have the woman at the next table be ranting against the FUCKING NERVE of women with functioning breasts who dare to leave! the! house! with their children!

My goodness. It wasn't so long ago that visible pregnancy was considered a shameful thing.

I find it really interesting that we have enough people here saying "OMG! She must keep her boobs covered at all times!!!!! They offend me!!!" as long as a child is attached. However, if the woman was wearing a revealing shirt it's anti-feminist to complain? Maybe most of you haven't seen a woman breastfeeding, but what your average college student wears to class shows more of the breast than a breastfeeding infant. Heck, go to the beach and it's even worse.

Breastfeeding is free, healthy, and all that good stuff. Moreover, it HURTS to not breastfeed. If you don't believe me, google engorgement.

Women have breasts. Breasts are for feeding babies. Mothers should be allowed out in public, and babies should eat when they're hungry. If you have a problem with it, look away. Otherwise, shut up.

The Trash Quenn-- correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought women's rights and feminism was about giving women the RIGHT to CHOOSE what they want to be. I'm not saying all moms need to breastfeed and stay at home. I realize that simply is not in their best interests, and I respect that.

Yet I plan to breastfeed and stay at home, and I expect not to be harassed about it, or be told I'm an "anti-feminist" simply b/c these are the choices I'm making with my life. So what if motherhood is important to me? Why should I not take pride in that, as other women take pride in their careers, or whatever else is important to them?

For years men told women that they HAD to stay home, that they HAD to take care of the kids, etc. Well, now here you are, telling me that I'm not allowed to do these things EVEN THOUGH I FREELY CHOOSE TO. That is just as oppressive. And it certainly ain't feminism, either.

I have to say, yes, she was picking a fight. I also have to say that I loved this site when I was at a time in my life that I was questioning the feminism machine, but the lack of two sided (or more) reporting and the love of snap judgments without the willingness to look at the other side of the equation or even acknowledge how the other person(s) involved may have seen something has really gotten old.

Maybe this is my inner babysitter talking, but if you love your children, you do not use them as a weapon. A nurse-in is not something to be applauded when the facts are skewed by the loudest "hurt" party. And picking on minimum wage workers like they're something you stepped in and can't quite shake off your shoe? No thanks.

There are times when nurse-ins can be useful and helpful. There are times when we can get so butthurt about the smallest thing that we wield the biggest weapon when we shouldn't. There was an incident where a mother demanded a nurse-in because a clerk asked that she use the lactation site to nurse her child. How dare someone ask her to move from the front of the (noisy, crowded, germ-infested, anxiety-inducing) store! Pardon my skepticism in this case, and others like it.

well put Marcy!

I don't think trash queen is a feminist anyway... maybe a self-riteous supremist?! heh.

I've seen breast feeding women that are so discrete, you would barely know it's happening. I have ALSO seen breastfeeding women letting it all hang out, including the breast not currently feeding. Same with kids, some are great, some are monsters. Both extremes happen, only acknowledging the one that supports your arguments does no one any favors.

Kimmy: Scolding comments along the line of 'that's already been said' aren't helpful. The comments are flying fast and furious When I started mine I was 4th and ended 28th. Also, a mother can bring her own blanket rather than use a grody restaurant one. If the baby detests the blanket there are may types of clothing that lend themselves to discretion. It's not all or nothing.

Only one or two posters have been adamantly anti-breastfeeding. Please keep that in mind when addressing comments to "you people".

Why does breast feeding seem to be the only feminist issue where we're discouraged to speak up when we're uncomfortable? Usually we encourage people to speak their discomfort. No one is making the mother comply.

Personal disclosure: I breastfed my baby for fourteen months. It was good for both of us. It was healthy. It was natural. Other people may make other decisions. Good for them. But please know, breastfeeding a baby for seven months, or fourteen months, or two years if mother and baby are benefitting, is not a freakish aberration!

I never breastfed in public because I'm shy, but if she had needed to eat I would have done it. And anyone who tried to get me to 'cover up' would get an earful, because it's hard to keep a baby from pulling a cover off once they learn how to use their little hands.

I appreciate when people use discretion in public, but for a breastfeeding mother I believe that discretion means sitting in as quiet an area as possible and exposing just enough to get the baby what he/she needs. To expect breast-feeding burkhas and a crazy level of body shame? No. Emphatically, no.

Breastfeeding is natural. Breastfeeding is beautiful. If you are grossed out by it please know that it is your problem. GET OVER IT.

And stop being nosey. Nobody made you look.

I don't think they were completely wrong. They didn't make her STOP, they just asked her to cover up with a blanket. I understand that she needed to feed her baby, but I don't necessarily want boob with my chicken salad. She's within her right to feed, but she should understand that not everyone wants to see her do that over dinner. So covering up or doing it in the restroom are not unreasonable requests. specially if other patrons were unhappy.

"The Trash Quenn-- correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought women's rights and feminism was about giving women the RIGHT to CHOOSE what they want to be."

Absolutely. But it's about the rights of ALL women. Not just you. And that means that if you truly care about the rights of other women, you won't advocate ideas that set us all back.

Advocating the idea that "boobs are (only; primarily) for breastfeeding does exactly that. Advocating that motherhood is some sort of saintly state does exactly that. Arguing that feeding a child is solely or primarily a women's issue does exactly that.

All around us, other people continue to define us solely or primarily by our bodily functions. Why do we women continue to do this to each other? Why do we continue to act as if what we can do with our breasts and vaginas is the most important part of who we are?

For centuries, men have managed to be parents without having their children define who they are and what matters most about them. Feminists have been struggling to achieve that state for decades. How, then, is it remotely possible that arguing for a body-centric, essentialist view of womanhood is remotely feminist?

I am not anti-child. In fact, I adore kids. I simply refuse to be defined by whether I have them, and women who not only allow this, but advocate such definition for other women piss me off.

Parenting is important. And it's important regardless of whether one has a vagina. Until the boob nazi brigade releases its death grip on parenting, women will still feel intense pressure to define themselves by their wombs, and men will still feel intense pressure to emotionally detach themselves from their children. Is this really the kind of world we want for both men and women? Do we still want a world in which other women look down on us if we're 35 and unmarried or don't have kids?

I entirely agree that women (and men--which almost never gets discussed) should have the option of staying home with young children. What I argue against is the idea that doing so is somehow noble, ideal or something that should, in ANY way, be advocated. Do it if you want to, but STFU about how great you are for having done so, and how lousy other women are for not doing so.

In other words: it's not the state of being a mother, or bfing or staying at home that's the problem: it's acting as if doing those things are a feminist act. Because they absolutely, completely, totally are not.

I don't get what the problem is. At the very least, breastfeeding is an almost sure-fire way to shut the little %^*$#( up. I would rather sit next to a happy baby and a boob than a screaming baby any day.

I would suggest that the chain ban children, but they bill themselves as family restaurants, so that is obviously not an option.

"In other words: it's not the state of being a mother, or bfing or staying at home that's the problem: it's acting as if doing those things are a feminist act. Because they absolutely, completely, totally are not. "

Trashqueen, who suggested that those things are a feminist act?! I'm not getting where your getting this from? I don't recall reading a comment like that on this post..

Trash Queen, the only one on this thread arguing that women with children should stay home and shut up appears to be...you.

This is very much a feminist issue. It seems to me that women are always reprimanded when it comes to child issues. Women have failed their supposed primary duty if they do not want children. I do not want children, so I fall into this category and know very well how this is largely seen as a failure of my "duties." Don't get me started.

But those who decide to have children are also reprimanded, and this is another example of exactly that. Women with babies should not be confined to their homes. And they should be able to do what they must to care for their children should they leave their homes. It just seems like a giant double standard to me for women to be encouraged so strongly to have children, but once they have them, to be banned from public spaces to do what they need to do to care for them. It all looks a lot like woman-hate to me.

"There was an incident where a mother demanded a nurse-in because a clerk asked that she use the lactation site to nurse her child. How dare someone ask her to move from the front of the (noisy, crowded, germ-infested, anxiety-inducing) store! Pardon my skepticism in this case, and others like it."

Exactly.

Let's be perfectly honest about what this movement is about. This movement has nothing whatsoever to do with wanting to quietly feed one's child, and everything to do with wanting a hell of a lot of attention for having the ability to make food from one's boobs.

I stand behind my statement that the women who are on this crusade have bought into the brainwashing that tells them that being a mother is their highest purpose. And anyone who claims the label of feminist ought to be offended by this.

Get a grip, people! Applebee's is a "family" restaurant. They depend on families eating there--you shouldn't have to check your breastfeeding infant at the door when you bring your other kids there for dinner. If you want to go someplace that doesn't have small children, go to a bar. This is a place that has a kid's menu, it's not Jean Georges. I do agree that there are places that small children aren't welcome, such as PG-13 and up movies, but Applebee's is not one of them.

Also, women breastfeed. It's natural and normal. I've never done it, but I've heard that pumping is not natural, normal, or particularly pleasant for anyone. Women shouldn't be forced to pump except in circumstances where they're going to be separated from their kids for a while, such as a work day. They certainly shouldn't have to pump so that a bunch of prissy a-holes don't have to be subjected to the perfectly normal sight of a woman breastfeeding her child. If it bothers you, don't look at them!

I'm all for breastfeeding in public. I breastfed my son 'til he was about 6 months old. But whenever I was in public, I always had a burp cloth to cover myself mostly because there ARE creepy men who will just sit and stare at you. But other than that, I always tried to be discreet and when I couldn't, well, it's just breasts, right?

I understand the weirdness it creates for the server. When I worked at a chain restaurant, several times the other waitresses would complain that a woman at their table just whipped it out and started breastfeeding with absolutely no shame and it made them feel uncomfortable. I think people mostly feel uncomfortable trying to have a simple conversation with someone who is breastfeeding, which until recently has been considered a private act.

And someone towards the top made a comment about if it's really appropriate to bring young one's to "nice restaurants". I have been bringing my son to fine dining restaurants since he was pretty much born. But maybe because I'm lucky and he isn't incredibly fussy and is extremely well-behaved. Of course now that he's older he makes a huge mess on the floor, but I always try to clean up behind us and make it easier for the waitress/busser. I know what it's like to be in their shoes. But honestly, it IS their job. Someone else mentioned that these poor waiters/bussers are only making like $4.30/hr. Well, once you include tips it generally averages out to $11-12/hr.

TrashQueen: "Boob Nazi brigade?" Oh, please. Try to address the arguments here rather than the easy-to-refute strawmen that you would prefer to argue.

You have allowed your disturbing hatred of children to cloud your thinking on this subject. The issue here is whether women should be ashamed of a natural process which involves little more exposure than happens in normal life in other contexts. Should women be forced to develop special breast-feeding burkhas if their little ones need to be fed in public? Should they just stay home instead? Why are women visible at all? They're so unsightly, with their milk and their unwieldy bodies. Why don't they just become invisible until the menz want something?

That's the issue here. And the feminist response? If a woman needs to breastfeed her baby in public she should do so. And if she doesn't want to she should choose not to. And if she doesn't want children she should be free not to have them. And if she does want children she should be free to have as many as she feels she can love and raise responsibly. Women should be free; as free as men though sometimes our bodies do things that men's bodies do not.

See? Simple.

I am so worked up about this comments section I don't know what to say. Having a 2 year old I remember how much I went through in the first year. Being a new parent is so hard because you are pulled in so many ways, depending on if you work, stay home, breastfeed, plus all of the newfangled parenting techniques. I mean you are villified by healthcare professionals if you don't breastfeed, if you don't breastfeed long enough and by the public if you do breastfeed. The same goes if you work, or don't work, or whatever.

When I was pregnant I worked in a non-profit, which was a very satisfying yet low paying job. I could only afford 3 weeks of maternity leave, but the plus side was being able to bring my daughter with me to work until she turned 6 months old. Yet, when I would shut my office door and either breastfeed or pump and forget to lock the door I would have co-workers who would burst in without knocking and then act all offended. Much of the conversation above reminds me of this happening. If you don't want to see someone breastfeeding just turn away and stop looking.

I chose to use a blanket (which had more to do with body issues, since I am plus sized and all the nifty maternity/breastfeeding clothing is really hard to find if you are above a size12), but I couldn't imagine doing that during the summer, which regularly hits 105 degrees during the summer. Luckily my daughter was born in November.

Ultimately I was wanting to say that I think our job as feminists is to support a society where women aren't punished for their gender as well as supported for their choices (unlike Trash Queen who seems to reject all others who don't believe the same as she does). I find most the anti-breastfeeding comments to be saddening, especially on a feminist blog.

I am so worked up about this comments section I don't know what to say. Having a 2 year old I remember how much I went through in the first year. Being a new parent is so hard because you are pulled in so many ways, depending on if you work, stay home, breastfeed, plus all of the newfangled parenting techniques. I mean you are villified by healthcare professionals if you don't breastfeed, if you don't breastfeed long enough and by the public if you do breastfeed. The same goes if you work, or don't work, or whatever.

When I was pregnant I worked in a non-profit, which was a very satisfying yet low paying job. I could only afford 3 weeks of maternity leave, but the plus side was being able to bring my daughter with me to work until she turned 6 months old. Yet, when I would shut my office door and either breastfeed or pump and forget to lock the door I would have co-workers who would burst in without knocking and then act all offended. Much of the conversation above reminds me of this happening. If you don't want to see someone breastfeeding just turn away and stop looking.

I chose to use a blanket (which had more to do with body issues, since I am plus sized and all the nifty maternity/breastfeeding clothing is really hard to find if you are above a size12), but I couldn't imagine doing that during the summer, which regularly hits 105 degrees during the summer. Luckily my daughter was born in November.

Ultimately I was wanting to say that I think our job as feminists is to support a society where women aren't punished for their gender as well as supported for their choices (unlike Trash Queen who seems to reject all others who don't believe the same as she does). I find most the anti-breastfeeding comments to be saddening, especially on a feminist blog.

Trash Queen, I don't mean this as an insult, but it's obvious that you've never breastfed.

I do.

The ONLY way for an exclusively-breastfed baby to not be breastfed in public is for the mother to be tied to the house. Babies (especially newborns) are hungry often, and they don't follow a schedule well.

Is that what you'd like? A return to the Victorian era?

As for pumping -

1) Pumping is time-consuming, painful, and inefficient. Using a GOOD pump, I can pump for 1/2 an hour and produce less than my daughter gets in 10 minutes.

2) Breast feeding works on supply and demand. When the baby cries, the boob fills. It is physically painful to not feed the child at that point.

I am a feminist, and I freely admit that breastfeeding was/is my choice. Honestly, it's primarily an economic one - I'm a poor graduate student and literally cannot afford $300/month in formula.

Should my choice mean that I am never free to go to a restaurant? That I am never free to go out in public? Should I be "ashamed" because my chosen method of feeding happens to involve my breasts?

Oh, and as far as restrooms - ick! Should I sit on the floor, or crouch on the stool? They are dirty places designed for urination and defacation, NOT eating. If you are offended the next time you "see" someone breastfeeding, I suggest that you order your sandwich to be served in the Ladies' Room. That should solve the problem.

I am so worked up about this comments section I don't know what to say. Having a 2 year old I remember how much I went through in the first year. Being a new parent is so hard because you are pulled in so many ways, depending on if you work, stay home, breastfeed, plus all of the newfangled parenting techniques. I mean you are villified by healthcare professionals if you don't breastfeed, if you don't breastfeed long enough and by the public if you do breastfeed. The same goes if you work, or don't work, or whatever.

When I was pregnant I worked in a non-profit, which was a very satisfying yet low paying job. I could only afford 3 weeks of maternity leave, but the plus side was being able to bring my daughter with me to work until she turned 6 months old. Yet, when I would shut my office door and either breastfeed or pump and forget to lock the door I would have co-workers who would burst in without knocking and then act all offended. Much of the conversation above reminds me of this happening. If you don't want to see someone breastfeeding just turn away and stop looking.

I chose to use a blanket (which had more to do with body issues, since I am plus sized and all the nifty maternity/breastfeeding clothing is really hard to find if you are above a size12), but I couldn't imagine doing that during the summer, which regularly hits 105 degrees during the summer. Luckily my daughter was born in November.

Ultimately I was wanting to say that I think our job as feminists is to support a society where women aren't punished for their gender as well as supported for their choices (unlike Trash Queen who seems to reject all others who don't believe the same as she does). I find most the anti-breastfeeding comments to be saddening, especially on a feminist blog.

"Women with babies should not be confined to their homes."

Straw man. No one is arguing this. Especially not me.

What I'm arguing is that parents need to plan better for their outings and:

1. Plan outings around feeding times.

2. Plan to go to kid-friendly places.

and/or

3. Find a sitter.

Why is this so complicated? Why is this even a point of contention? How can people be so self-centered and arrogant that they believe that they have a right to take their kids anywhere they choose, even if it annoys the crap out of other people? I'm sorry, but your "right" to tote your kid around does not trump my "right" to enjoy a nice meal or an R-rated movie without a screaming, pooping kid or some stranger's naked boob next to me.

The key issue here is this: kids do not belong EVERYWHERE. If you want to go to an adult-aimed place, LEAVE THEM AT HOME. You're not being locked up at home like a prisoner. You're only being asked to be considerate of others and keep the kid out of places it doesn't belong, and to act like a mature, respectful person when you do have the kid along.

Millions of women have children. Millions breastfeed. And yet there's only a handful who are on this crusade to tote their kids along to every place, and feed them in obtrusive ways. Being annoyed by this arrogant, selfish behavior is in no way anti-child or anti-woman. It's anti-rudeness.

Sorry about the triple post, I am having Internet Explorer issues.

1. If you don't like it, then don't look. Why are people staring at this woman's breast? How hard is it to look away, sheesh?

2. Applebee's is NOT a "nice" restaurant. It's perfectly appropriate to bring your kids there. Anyone going there thinking they will have a quiet dinner is just stupid.

3. Sure, lots of kids are loud or misbehave, but same with adults, and we don't expect them to be "taken outside." We just feel annoyed and deal with it. But when it's kids, it's like "get them the hell outta here!!!!"

4. Trash Queen, you have some serious issues you might want to address. Seriously.

TrashQueen: Are you trying to suggest that Applebee's is an adult oriented place? It isn't. It's a crappy family restaurant. OK? Good. Argument over then. What else are we doing today?

Trashqueen, this crusade you speak of sound very paranoid... and silly.

On a side note: does anyone here who has kids, actually ahve the choice to be a stay at home mom? I'm just curious because I would love to but I really don't think it's financially possible and i'm worried about how the whole full-time work and baby will work out... my mom was stay at home through most of my elementary years so I couldn't really ask her..

Frog Queen,

It's definitely not a choice for me. Then again, it's not a choice I would make.

I AM lucky.

My partner and I are both graduate students, and we've arranged our schedules so that one of us is able to stay home with our daughter most of the time.

(I hate to dispel Trash Queen's illusions, but even though I am the "feeding tube," HE actually does the majority of the child care. I work more hours.)

TrashQueen:

Interesting how you steadfastly refuse to address the fact that you seem to be advocating a pretty heavy level of body-shame for women. Do you identify as a feminist? I think you might need to do some more reading.

Naked boobs when attached to Angelina Jolie or Scarlet Johansen=good!
Naked boobs when attached to a baby=bad!
If you don't breastfeed you're a bad mom. If you do breastfeed and you're not a 10 and someone sees a slither of flesh then you're disturbing everyone with your shameful nudity.
Jebus, this country is so fucking puritanical. It's a tit, get over it. Also, this is APPLEBEE'S. Highbrow fast food. If you're at Masa's or Alain Ducasse, where it can cost $300 minimum, then I'd be pissed. But expecting there to be no babies at Applebees, some of whome will need feeding, is like being shocked when you find kids in the ball pit in McDonald's.

I am sorry if this has already been addressed, but...

1. She was in a booth in the back of the restaurant. To see her boobs, you'd have to make an effort and go out of your way to see them.

2. Yes it IS appropriate to bring a small child in a restaurant, to teach them to behave. I of all people cannot STAND screaming children and feel the parents need to be responsible and take them outside for a few min....but kids aren't going to learn to behave in public if you never take them out in public

3. 7 months is not too long to breastfeed. Breast milk is hands-down the most nutritious thing to feed an infant. He wasn't even 1 yet! Give her a break.

I wouldn't be comfortable with a woman or man just hanging out of their clothes walking around a restaurant, but this was in the back booth in private. There's really no reason to tell this lady what to do.

I think it's a cultural thing. At least in the US, we are horrified at the thought of boobs being anything but for (mostly male) pleasure. Even I am a little uncomfortable with seeing it and that's something I have to work on. But Applebee's had no right to tell her to cover up.

My friend (who is an awesome single mom, has basically done everything by herself since the pregnancy) was told to go to the bathroom when she was breastfeeding in a restaurant, almost completely covered up! She said "Do you ask your other paying customers to eat in the bathroom?". If you see nipple, it is most likely that YOU are looking a little too hard.

I'm just curious because I would love to but I really don't think it's financially possible and i'm worried about how the whole full-time work and baby will work out... my mom was stay at home through most of my elementary years so I couldn't really ask her..

My sister is, she found that if she worked and used childcare that she would only be bringing home $200 a month more than if she stayed home. My mil lives with me and we pay the living expenses so she watches my daughter (it works for us).

I have another point that I forgot to make in my post. Back when formula was invented women were shamed for breastfeeding and not using formula. For many women breastfeeding was and still is a feminist act, not necessarily maintaining that they are defined by their anatomy.

"1) Pumping is time-consuming, painful, and inefficient. Using a GOOD pump, I can pump for 1/2 an hour and produce less than my daughter gets in 10 minutes.

2) Breast feeding works on supply and demand. When the baby cries, the boob fills. It is physically painful to not feed the child at that point."

I'm so sorry that feeding your child is such a complicated, painful process. Perhaps this is something you should have considered before you got pregnant?

If you're not willing to accept the lifestyle limitations that come with having a baby, then don't have one.

The sense of entitlement here is staggering. You made the choice to become a parent. Now you need to live with the limitations of that choice. The rest of us aren't going to completely rearrange our lives just because you felt it necessary to breed.

You are not special because you have a child or breastfeed. You simply aren't. Get over yourself, and quit acting like the rest of the world owes you something just because you did something that billions of other women do every day without being rude about it.

Trash Queen, your previous argument included this statement:

"Is there some reason that you absolutely MUST go out to a restaurant to eat? Are you physically incapable of picking up the phone and ordering pizza? Do you not have anything in the fridge with which to feed yourself? Do you not have a partner or co-caregiver who can bring back takeout?"

How should that be read, other than "Women with children should stay at home"?

The original situation didn't involve women staging a nurse in at a bar or a strip club. It's an APPLEBEE'S, for chrissake. It's a family restaurant, and not even a particularly nice one. I just don't think the argument can be made that it's inappropriate to take a baby, breastfeeding or not, into a family restaurant.

Your entire argument seems to revolve around the fact that 1) breastfeeding makes you uncomfortable and therefore should be shamefully hidden and 2) women who make choices of which you do not approve are not feminists.

You're not very good at this feminism thing, are you?

Ooooh, I am entitled because I have discretely nursed my child in a family restaurant?????

Wow, I don't think I'm the one with entitlement issues here.

I think the easiest solution to the "public breast feeding issue" is that any restaurant or store that feels it's clientele or workers may be offended by someone breastfeeding should create baby/lactation rooms. I know Ikea's had them for a very long time, and my mom really appreciated them when she had my sister. It was quiet and out of the way, and she could be there with my brother and I while my sister fed. It avoided conflict and it helped her keep a close eye on her two mobile children while my sister fed. Very simple and something that will be extremely appreciated by the vast majority of breast feeding women.

And yes, of course there are women who will push things too far, but there are people who push things too far in all areas of life. If it wasn't breast-feeding it'd be something else, and there's no reason to villify the majority of breast feeding mothers who are considerate and discreet for the actions of a few.

Short answer: Lactation rooms in all family oriented places (restaurants, shopping malls, etc.) would go a long way towards making all sides of this debate much happier.

"Naked boobs when attached to Angelina Jolie or Scarlet Johansen=good!"

Naked boobs on ANYONE when you don't want to see them = bad.

I don't care whether it's a drunk college twit flashing at a concert or a woman with six kids sitting next to me at a bus.

Put the damned things away. If I want to see boobs, I'll look down my shirt.

This isn't "body shame" by the way. It's having a sense of propriety. I don't care how conventionally attractive a given person's naked body is or what it's being used for. If it's outside of a locker room or a private home, keep the damned thing covered.

Oh, and Trash Queen, I am neither complaining about being a mother nor about my feeding choices.

I am complaining about people who think that they can dictate how I should parent based on their own preconcieved notions.

I am not the one asking others to completely rearrange their lives.

I was just about to say something along those lines, Pheather.
If breasts engaged in the act of feeding make you uncomfortable, LOOK AWAY. Your tacky new outfit may make me uncomfortable; if that's the case I'll focus on something else and move on.
And why would it be so difficult to eat a meal with a breastfeeding woman in your presence? Is it disgusting or something? A baby eating? I'm sure women in low-cut tops or bikinis don't make you lose your appetite, why should a breastfeeding mom?
The only reason is because you've been brainwashed into believing that breasts are for titilation only and that breastfeeding is a sexual act. And sex with a baby is gross! It's so messed up; y'all should check yourselves before you project your backwards sexual attitudes onto other people. Breasts are more than fun-bags for men to ogle.

Factual Question : Is the situation for Applebee's like that of say Wendy's where each resturant is owned and operated by a manager who pays a license fee to the parent coroporation? I ask this because, if so, it seems plausible that an indiviual Applebee's whose manager has no problem with breast feeding could find some protestors outside his establishment and have no idea why.

I'm all for discussion, but hasn't Trash Queen jsut repeated herself in about a dozen posts over and over? It seems perfectly clear that she's not a feminist and mis-using the title, and that she's not going to be convinced that her manner of thinking is actually grose and the opposite of feminism ideals..

I'm half covninced Trash Queen is a-sexual, if I may use the term.

Trash Queen:
"The sense of entitlement here is staggering. You made the choice to become a parent. Now you need to live with the limitations of that choice."

Stop foisting unnatural limitations on me! This is a limitation you are creating! It does not exist outside the realm of petty prejudice and body-hatred!

You are doing so much good work for the patriarchy today. I hope they give you a pat on the head.

Factual Question : Is the situation for Applebee's like that of say Wendy's where each resturant is owned and operated by a manager who pays a license fee to the parent coroporation? I ask this because, if so, it seems plausible that an indiviual Applebee's whose manager has no problem with breast feeding could find some protestors outside his or her establishment and have no idea why.

I'm all for discussion, but hasn't Trash Queen jsut repeated herself in about a dozen posts over and over? It seems perfectly clear that she's not a feminist and mis-using the title, and that she's not going to be convinced that her manner of thinking is actually grose and the opposite of feminism ideals..

I'm half covninced Trash Queen is a-sexual, if I may use the term.

I see why the trash queen chose her name--everything she says reeks of priviliged trash. Note that her arguments are about reproducing are the exact same ones that the conservatives use 'bout them dayum welfare queens suckin' us dry.

An interesting anthropological sidenote:

When I was in the Middle East, most mothers breastfed. It was normal to see a woman (sometimes in full hijab) sitting at a bus stop or a shopping mall and breastfeeding her child (sometimes to the age of 4 or 5). No one stared, and the women made no great effort to conceal themselves. It was normal.

When I was in rural Peru, the dress code was VERY conservative. No one showed upper arms, cleavage, or thigh. And yet, public breastfeeding was normal. Again, no one made an issue of "modesty" and no one stared.

WHY is this even an issue, in our (supposedly) egalitarian society?

I think perhaps trashqueen would more aptly be called TrollQueen at this point. Seriously, I'm having trouble thinking anyone with those views would be here aside from trolling.

Good gravy. The essentialists have taken over. Did I just walk into MichFest here or something?

So much for the goal of equality. We're too busy patting ourselves on the back for having periods and lactating to bother with getting Ph.Ds and curing cancer.

"I'm sure women in low-cut tops or bikinis don't make you lose your appetite, why should a breastfeeding mom?"

Actually, they do. If I want a peep show with my meal, I'll go to Hooters.

Oh, and contrary to the opinion of an above poster, I'm hardly asexual. I simply don't define myself by my sexuality, nor by my ability to breed. My crotch is unimportant to who I am as a person. It matters to me and my partner when we're alone together, and me and my doctor when I'm ensuring that it's healthy. It's no-one else's business. I'm all about advocating for proper health care and abortion rights and plenty of other crotch-centric political issues, but that doesn't mean I define myself in any way by what it can do.

It's annoying as hell when men wander around acting as if their dicks are the most important thing in the world. It's equally annoying when women do that about their bits. You'd think we were all 12 years old and just discovering our clits by the way some women go on about them. Sheesh.

do vagina's produce nurishing pubstances I'm unaware of!? hmmm why are you comparing your crotch to your breasts?

so your sexually repressed I get it! jk

seriously tho, you got some issues trashqueen and they're not feminist ones...

I'm glad I am not the only one deeply offended by trashqueen...

WHY is this even an issue, in our (supposedly) egalitarian society?
I think it's because breasts are so sexualized. I'd say in western culture, but I know that in some countries in Europe, people don't get their drawers in a bunch if they see a spare breast.
We're taught from a really young age that breasts are naughty, sexual parts. I bet the people complaining about breastfeeding wouldn't mind walking past a Frederick's of Hollywood or Victoria's Secret display at the mall. They're serving their purpose--selling shit and looking pleasing to men.
They seem to have a hard time untangling biology, the fact that breasts serve a specific purpose, from sociology, that we're told that breasts are wrong and dirty.

"We're too busy patting ourselves on the back for having periods and lactating to bother with getting Ph.Ds and curing cancer."

TrashQueen,

I'm lactating while actively pursuing a Ph.D.

Would you like to re-think your binary statement?

How would you classify ME?

One CAN be an intelligent, contributing member of society and STILL be a mother.

So much for the goal of equality. We're too busy patting ourselves on the back for having periods and lactating to bother with getting Ph.Ds and curing cancer.

Get off your high horse. I am an advocate for the mentally ill and a mom. It is not a either/or situation. I am proud you choose not to be defined by your crotch, as I choose to do neither. I am not telling you to go home and have kids, so just stop telling me that I need not be in public because I chose to have a child.

Here's another link about the Facebook breastfeeding ban:
http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/09/07/breast-isnt-best-on-facebook/

Trash Queen, once again, the only one making the argument you're railing against is YOU.

"I simply don't define myself by my sexuality, nor by my ability to breed."

Good for you. Neither do I. You DO, however, define other women by what they choose to do with their sexuality and their bodies.

According to you, women who choose to have children are not feminists.

My mother would probably beg to differ on that subject.

Alright, yes, I'm spamming. Apologies.

However, yes, absolutely I'm a real feminist. I'm just not an essentialist. I'm not about "women's" rights--I'm about eliminating restrictive gender roles that have held us all back. I'm all about eliminating the idea that men or women should be defined by what's between our legs, and I will always argue against any notion that our respective reproductive organs should have anything whatsoever to do with who we are as people.

I'll leave this particular discussion with one question:

I understand needing to bring your kid along sometimes (though, please, not ever to nice restaurants or theaters) and I understand needing to feed said kid on occasion. I also understand that doing it in a smelly bathroom is gross, and I would never require anyone to do that.

What I really don't understand, though, is why anyone would object to being asked to be as discreet as possible under the circumstances? What's wrong with covering up? What's wrong with lactation rooms? What's wrong with taking the kid out to the car for a feeding?

Why is it necessary to bare your breast right at a table instead of using any of those other options?

Why is it that millions of other women can breastfeed discreetly but you can't?

If I see someone else's boob, I hope we're either in a locker room or about to have sex. I'm not interested in seeing it when I'm trying to enjoy a meal or a movie. It's really that simple.

"According to you, women who choose to have children are not feminists."

Oh, bullshit. I have NEVER said that.

Women who have children--even women who stay home with young ones and/or breastfeed--can of course be feminists. But women who choose to make their ability to have children the center of their being are not.

1) I live in the Midwestern United States. I've never seen a "lactation room."

2) As I stated earlier, my daughter will not tolerate a blanket over her face while she's eating.

3) Despite that, I AM discrete.

4) According to the article, so was the woman at Applebee's.

5) Being discrete is not enough. Even if no boob is showing, people are frequently offended that they can TELL that you are breastfeeding. This is enough to start the stares/comments/requests to leave.

6) How do you avoid seeing boobs at a movie? Do you go to G-rated films only? No wonder you have problems with kids acting out ... G-rated movies are DESIGNED for kids.

7) If you DO accidentally get a 3-second flash of boob, what is the big deal? Boobs are not dirty, and female boobs are no more sexual than male chests are. They've just been hyper-sexualized in this culture.

So basically, the rationale is:

Exposed sexy breasts: woo-hoo!

Exposed nurturing breasts: gasp! obscenity!

This just goes back to the value system placed on women's bodies. Naked women who are intended to be sexually attractive can be found anywhere (mags, tv, etc.), but when a woman is in any way maternal, her body becomes desexualized to the point of being "morally objectionable." Think of the classic Demi Moore(sp?) nude shot of her pregnant. But people loved her being nude in the movies when her belly didn't have a baby in it.

When a mother is breastfeeding, less of her breast is exposed than when a woman wears a really low-cut shirt. We're all outraged about the girl who was harrassed by Southwest Airlines, but we're going to demonize this woman who was breast feeding? Come on.

I'm sorry, but your "right" to tote your kid around does not trump my "right" to enjoy a nice meal or an R-rated movie without a screaming, pooping kid or some stranger's naked boob next to me.

Not getting involved in the whole Trash Queen debate, but I just have to point out that this thinking (from BOTH sides) is completely, totally, 100% subjective. Just like TQ may think that people's rights to "tote their kid around" doesn't trump her right to enjoy public space, mothers and fathers may rationally argue that her right to not be annoyed doesn't trump their right to exist in public with their children. Nobody's right or wrong here - it's about trying to compromise. I actually legitimately hate kids in public unless they're completely quiet and still (which I KNOW is an unfair and unrealistic standard), but I certainly don't think that kids and parents should be stuffed into their houses 24/7 or confined to "family-friendly" establishments. See how simple that was? Repeat after me: "I am not the center of the universe."

Also

Of course now that he's older he makes a huge mess on the floor, but I always try to clean up behind us and make it easier for the waitress/busser. I know what it's like to be in their shoes. But honestly, it IS their job. Someone else mentioned that these poor waiters/bussers are only making like $4.30/hr. Well, once you include tips it generally averages out to $11-12/hr.

Speak for yourself. I've served in multiple restaurants, and this $11-12 an hour is NOT a guarantee. And, no matter how nice you are and how much you smile, servers cringe when they see a young kid come in. The only thing that can even begin to make up for being forced to mop up Cheerios and crumbs and hose down an entire section(why does everything children touch become so fucking sticky?) because of a kid is a 50% tip.

god I move for banning.. she's nuts... we're not even talking about "women who choose to make their ability to have children the center of their being "

where are you getting this.. go argue somewhere else!

"But women who choose to make their ability to have children the center of their being are not."

Another strawman. Breastfeeding in public does not equal making it the center of my existence.

Don't like it? Don't look.

I would like to credit this thread with my decision to go ahead and discretely breastfeed my next child whenever she/he needs to be fed. Thank you, TrashQueen!

TQ -

So your're argument basically boils down to, "I don't want to see breasts, hide them, please."

And you don't see the point that it is BECUASE breasts are sexualized and thought of as "dirty" that you feel that way?

Should people cover up their arms? Legs? Are you offended by fingers? Noses?

It's a body part, like any other body part. No one is "subjecting" you to their filthy, dirty breast any more than someone wearing sandals is "subjecting" you to their filthy, dirty feet.

I should mention that at least here in New York State, it's perfectly legal for a woman to not wear a top. Breasts are not considered indecent.

I find it fascinating that states have laws in place that are more progressive than those of some of the self-professed feminists on this board. Totally amazing.

Frog Queen, your comment about asexuals really bothered me.

I am an asexual. I am married. I want children. I have no problem with breastfeeding, in public or otherwise.

Perhaps you should rethink that statement.

Ugh. This is right up there with asking women to breastfeed in restrooms. I dont particularly want to eat my lunch in a bathroom or under a blanket, so why would I (or anyone else) expect a mother to feed her child there?

I think its fabulous that mothers organized this protest, and I hope their voices were heard loud and clear.

Wow, some serious woman hating going on in this thread.

I wanted to add to the earlier point about women breastfeeding publicly in other countries throughout the world. This is not breastfeeding, but I was just in France, where so many women are topless on the beach. All ages and all body types. There is no shame. They are with their families and freinds topless on the beach. I was so stricken by that coming from the overly-puritanical United States and I was so happy to see this lack of bodily shame. I was especially happy to see it was a range of ages and body types. Comfort in one's own skin. This is not exactly the same issue as women (with children or without) being policed by contradictory standards. But I do think it is important to keep in mind that discomfort with breasts/breastfeeding really is a cultural construct.

Trash Queen, weren't you just leaving?

You said: "In other words: it's not the state of being a mother, or bfing or staying at home that's the problem: it's acting as if doing those things are a feminist act. Because they absolutely, completely, totally are not."

From this, it is logical to infer that you believe that women who choose to have children are not feminists.

I beg to differ. Mothering can be a feminist act, just as not having children can be a feminist act. Mothers can be feminists, as can all kinds of women who make choices different than yours.

"I simply don't define myself by my sexuality, nor by my ability to breed. "

Actually, it appears that you do. By insisting that women who have children and breastfeed them in public are antifeminist, you've focused exclusively on their decision to "breed" as their defining characteristic.

Your stance as a feminist seems to be extremely dependent on an utter rejection/dismissal of your biological capacities, which is just as untenable a position as the woman=mother argument. You are absolutely defining yourself according to your ability to reproduce: you think you can't be a worthwhile feminist if you acknowledge -- much less engage -- it.

starknut -
Asexual:
1. Biology. a. having no sex or sexual organs.

sorry, she just struck me as the sort of person who denied the existence of her/his (who knows?) own genitalia even though she admitted to having a crotch. It seemed as thought that everyone else was sapose to eb that way too by inferring that we pretend we don't have any sexual organs..
it was merely a joke. I dunno what asexual definition your using to describe yourself. but thats the one i was referenceing. Guess i should have placed the exact definition along with my joke.

Covering up doesn't work with all kids. My twins for example would just start taking the blanket down because it would irritate them.
But thankfully I live in Germany where bare breasts are not such a big issue. Women sunbathing topless in the park are a common site, and nobody even notices it. I breastfed my kids all over town, anyplace, anytime they where hungry - no problem.

If you feel ashamed or embarrassed by bare breasts, it is because you grew up to know them only in a sexual way (used to sell cars, beer ect.) That is a problem you may need to work on. The main reason for breasts is to feed babies, please understand that.

Covering up doesn't work with all kids. My twins for example would just start taking the blanket down because it would irritate them.
But thankfully I live in Germany where bare breasts are not such a big issue. Women sunbathing topless in the park are a common site, and nobody even notices it. I breastfed my kids all over town, anyplace, anytime they where hungry - no problem.

If you feel ashamed or embarrassed by bare breasts, it is because you grew up to know them only in a sexual way (used to sell cars, beer ect.) That is a problem you may need to work on. The main reason for breasts is to feed babies, please understand that.

Ah, I thought you meant "asexual" as in "no sexual preference and no interest in sex". Lots of people use the term to refer to those with a stick up their ass when dealing with things of a sexual nature, and I had simply assumed that's what you had meant, given the context of the prior discussion.

My apologies.

Breastfeeding is a children's rights issue as well as a feminist issue... this has come up before in different threads. I'm not going to bother responding to most of the crap on this thread, but let me tell you one thing- my 14 month old is still nursing, and she is NOT discreet about it. She thinks the blanket idea is funny as hell and she likes to do yoga while she nurses.
If you don't like it, fuck off.

WHAT THE FUCK? How do some of you people have the nerve to call yourselves feminist!!!!

This woman had a legal RIGHT to breastfeed whenever, however and where ever she wanted to. No, she should not have fed her infant formula, she should not have had to "cover up" because MORONS have an objection to a mother FEEDING HER CHILD in the way nature intended. Any of you opposed, then please eat your meals with blankets over your heads.

Yes, women should be able to bring infants to Applebees, which I'm not sure I can even consider a place that sells glorfied bar food as a fancy resturant. Lack of good parenting is a completely different issue. I bring my daughter everywhere with me and most people are delighted to see her, because she is happy. Probably because I breastfeed her and she is getting everything she needs emotionally as well as nutirionally. BTW breastfeeding a child is not a strain on everyone. I have a 9 month old who is still breastfeeding and still will be as long as she needs to. Its not a strain on my body, it actually gets easier as time goes by. Infants are supposed to be breastfed. You can't even have a child live on a diet of solid food until at least the age of one. The World Health Organization says women should breastfeed their babies until the age of 2 or older. Biologically babies (using primates as points of referance) should be breastfed until between 2.5 and 6 years of age.
Breastfeeding is by far way better then bottlefeeding. Children who are breastfed even have lower rates of childhood cancer then bottlefed babies. Breastfeeding is good for moms also. Breastfeeding women have lower rates of breast cancer.

So what makes this a feminist issue? Its pretty clear to me that if women can't even show a small bit of flesh to feed their children something is seriously wrong with our society. Not only should women be allowed to breastfeed in public, with their breast exposed, but all women should be allowed to walk around topless. It's even legal in several states. Why? Because the female body was not made to be objectified or hidden. Anyone in our country would be horrified if they made a law requiring women to wear burkas. But breastfeeding blankets are ok? That should be required?

Oh, BTW national nurse-ins are occuring tomorrow at Applebees resturants around 12 pm. Visit birthwithoutboundries.com for more info.

that facebook ban makes me want to barf anger. have you seen some of the groups there are? sexy cleavage groups, "we love boobs" groups... all with photos showing WAY more boob than your typical breast feeding photo. and then you've got a million frat boy comments following each photo... "DOOD NICE TITTIES ID HIT THAT LOL"

so in facebook-land, somewhere along the line this became acceptable, and breast feeding became... what? an indecent sexual act between mother and child? barf! barfbook. or... facebarf. yeah.

Holy heck, 120 posts already? On this topic?

A) Babies need food
B) Women can feed babies with their breasts
C) A baby feeding on a breast is not sexual.

So why not let the baby feed? I really fail to see an issue here at all. I can't believe people object to this.

As a breastfeeding, attachment parenting, natural birthing, staying at home FEMINIST I'd like to give a big F -U to Trash Queen.

Perhaps you missed the memo, but a big part of feminism is being allowed to make my own choices. being forced to leave my kids with a sitter is just as oppressive as being forced to stay in the house with the shades drawn. The only thing anti-feminst I see right now is the words TQ is typing.

""Uh, I think it is, if y'all are hungry and can't find a babysitter."

Is there some reason that you absolutely MUST go out to a restaurant to eat? Are you physically incapable of picking up the phone and ordering pizza? Do you not have anything in the fridge with which to feed yourself? Do you not have a partner or co-caregiver who can bring back takeout?"

Call me crazy, but maybe, just maybe, parents are entitled to, once in a blue moon, join the rest of civilization at one of these places called "restaurants". One of my close friends has 2-year-old twins and a 4-year-old, and while she usually *does* order in to avoid having all three of her children get fussy in a public place, I can't blame her for wanting to go out once in a while. You know, if that's "allowed".

"If I want a peep show with my meal, I'll go to Hooters."

Well, the wings ain't so bad either.

Just a quick note - most of the nurse-in events are actually happening tomorrow, September 8th. The post makes it seem like they have already happened.

Oh, and speaking of babies, I just saw my co-worker's ultrasound photos today. I guess I should start warning her about all of the drastic "lifestyle limitations" now. I don't want her smelly, noisy kins anywhere near me!!!!!

Oh, yow. I knew my comment would likely start a heated discussion, but yow. Trash Queen and Gregory, PLEASE don't help me.

People have had lots of good points (on both sides) in this thread, but the level of anger is overwhelming. Can't we ever talk about anything here without everyone getting all outraged?

The points about body-shame and sexualization are well-taken, but the idea that just because it's natural means that it should be socially acceptable is a bit astounding. Not all body parts are created equal, and most bodily functions are (rightly) socially unacceptable in public.

Goddes5, fingers and noses are not the same as erongenous zones. They're just not. And until breasts stop being viewed as erongenous zones, there will be people who are weirded out by breastfeeding in public.

I am willing to examine my feelings on this issue, but I don't think it's terrible to expect people to perform this (necessary, wonderful, blah blah) bodily function in private. I personally think every place babies are welcomed should have a lactation room, and if they don't, then THAT'S the feminist issue, not someone's "right" to a level of nudity that is not tolerated for women without children.

Of course, it could (and has) been argued that the fact that men are allowed to go topless on most city streets and women aren't...is a feminist issue.

UCLA: 225 to go or I lose the car and the dwarf hamster to a Vegas bookie.

Can we just stop using the word "crotch?" Ew.

We all know by now that Troll Queen isn't a feminist and she's nasty as person in general.

The End.

Now stop saying crotch!!

PrincessPajamas: FWIW, I'm with you in wanting to rationally discuss the causes of these reactions.

I don't think I've ever seen a breast feeding discussion that doesn't turn into "EW BOOBIES!" vs. "BABY HATERZ! F-YOU DIE!"

I think most of us can agree one or two posters were pretty out of line. Still, I'm missing where that justifies the many subsequent posts being openly insulting and antagonistic towards anyone that not 100% comfortable with breast feeding.

My indignation is justified and rational and I won't have it reframed any other way. I recognize that people might be uncomfortable with breastfeeding, but I reiterate that the problem is theirs and they should deal with it quietly while everyone else gets on with the tricky business of living in a crowded, uptight world.

Well, what if men could breastfeed? Would a man be getting hassled for breastfeeding in Crapplebees?
There's this really good (I highly recomend it), feminist sci-fi book called Woman on the Edge of Time. Part of it is set in a potential future community. The community of the future uses hormones to induce breastfeeding in men so that they may breastfeed.

Roni,

I can speak for myself, not others but in my opinion you weigh the inconvenience. Is it more inconvenient for that mother to remove herself from an area to find a dedicated area to breastfeed? or is it more of an inconvenience for someone to be sitting near, in view, of her while she takes care of a little business.

Honestly you sit there for a few minutes while she feeds her child, she has to do this multiple times a day for upwords of 3 to 17 months?!(in some cases) So lets cut the woman a little slack, give her a break, it's way more of an inconvenience to the woman to run around your hang-ups than for you to just grin and bear it for 15 minutes (or however long.. realising times vary)
and oh yeah, it's not illegal to breast feed in public.. so ya know...

I am concerned about a number of comments here saying that lactation rooms should be available at restaurants, malls, etc.

If a woman wants to go to a lactation room if one is available, then more power to her. However, I do not think a woman should be forced to breastfeed her baby there if she doesn't want to. It perpetuate the idea that breastfeeding is unnatural and should be hidden.

/sarcasm/While we are herding lactating women to a private lactating room, we should also have rooms for those who are left handed and rooms for blonds and _________. /sarcasm/

Can you tell what I'm doing in this picture?
http://inlinethumb63.webshots.com/13182/2418267260054839378S600x600Q85.jpg

I would have missed a lot of live music if I had to leave each time my baby wanted to eat. Not to mention that No One said anything negative to me the entire afternoon and evening and I'm pretty sure the people immediately around me knew what I was doing.

"until breasts stop being viewed as erongenous zones"

Well, that's the whole point of the thing, isn't it? Women's bodies do not exist exclusively for the male sexual gaze. Breasts have a purpose. And people are perfectly fine with looking at a sexualized breast, but not at a functional one.

In addition, New York State, for instance, allows women to walk about topless. It is not considered indecent and indeed, all women here have a "right" to nudity, mothers or not, breastfeeding or not, as supported by New York State Law.

"Erogenous zone" is a cultural construct. As feminists, I think it's our job to work on deconstructing the idea that a breast must be sexualized in order to be acceptable.

@ urthlvr
That picture is sweet!

Man, babies have no shame! They'll suck boobie anywhere!

Pooping = natural.

Pooping at the dinner table (or at a concert, or anyplace NOT set aside for pooping) = socially unacceptable.

Why is it different if you replace "pooping" with "breastfeeding"? Just because women are the only ones who do it?

Umm... Eating at the dinner table is quite natural, and isn't that what the baby is doing afterall.

Comparing pooping to breastfeeding seems pathological to me. You might want to look into that problem.

And equating breast milk, breast, baby eating with shitting all over the dinner table FOR THE WIN!!!!!!!!

I was wondering when the "but pooping is natural!" card was going to get played.

Shit and breast milk are not even on the same playing field.

The frog queen: Please note, I have at no time in ANY of my posts said that women shouldn't breastfeed in public/women should remove themselves to a dedicated breastfeeding area or any of the other arguments you're attributing to me.

I've made several lengthy comments asking why the merest suggestion a nursing mother be discrete is met as outrageous, and why breast feeding seems to be the only subject feminists come down on the side of 'If it bothers you or anyone else, shut up and ignore it.' Please actually read my comments before deciding on my position.

Good lord. Since when is taking a dump comparable to feeding a baby? Keep digging that hole...

Roni, I read your comments. I think it's reasonable to see how the topic is met with some hostility as imply that a women be "discrete" (which the majority of women are when breast feeding in public)in the general opinion on here, is that they be banned to a specified area to be descrete.

frankly, babies have the shameless audacity to shit AND eat in public, sometimes at the very same time.

Touche, Phether. But then again, pooping at the dinner table is natural for babies, too... until we teach them to know better.

Again, I get the fact that moms need to be in public and babies need to eat, but the fact of the matter is that in the society we live in, breasts are considered a private part. Waving private parts around in public is against the social contract. Why is this different if there's a kid involved? Because babies are magic?

Why is it different if you replace "pooping" with "breastfeeding"? Just because women are the only ones who do it?
Ok, you asked it so I'll go for it.
1. You won't get cholera from breastfeeding, like you prolly would if you pooped at the table.
2. Breastfeeding has no offensive smell.
3. Breastfeeding is way more discrete than pooping. Even without covering the baby with a blanket (!!! How cruel is that!), you barely see anything. No one on the thread has said, "No, I won't be discrete! I'm going to go to Applebee's, whip off my top, and breastfeed while sitting on your fried cheesecake." I think that any other issues you may have has to do with how we're taught about breasts and is really a personal issue.
...
Does anyone else watch Little Britain? All this breastfeeding talk is reminding me of the "bitty" sketch.

Being discrete is so subjective. I like it when people are discrete. It's polite. The problem is that many people object to women's bodies generally, and no effort to be discrete will be good enough to please them. Also, from the description in the article, the woman was being discrete. So that wasn't the problem, was it? The problem was that she was using her body in a way that some people are prejudiced against and find offensive. And, for the umpteenth time, that is their problem; not hers.

dear princess- have you seriously ever seen a breastfeeding woman waving her breasts around in public? for real? do breasts really wave? hmmm. got any secret camera phone pics of that phenomenon to enlighten the rest of us mere mortals whose breasts don't 'wave'?

nicely put sgzax. I wish I had more of a flare with words!

"...at the end of the day, breasts have one important biological function. They exist to nourish a baby."

Mine don't. I don't plan on having children, ever.

I don't see what the big deal about breastfeeding is and I believe women should be able to breastfeed in public without any problems, but something about lactivism does rub me the wrong way.

"...the fact of the matter is that in the society we live in, breasts are considered a private part."

And why is that? Because in this society, the (female) breast has been sexualized, therefore seeing a baby's mouth on a sexual organ is OMG GROSS! This seems to be the theory behind hiding it under a blanket or doing it in the crapper.

I do find it interesting that when neocons say they don't want to see gay people (gasp) being gay in public, we cheerfully tell them to mind their own business and suck it up, but let a woman breastfeed in public and it gets equated with taking a crap on the dinner table.

Ah, America. It's such a fun country.

Jesus Christ, I guess we really CAN'T discuss anything around here without people flipping their shit at the merest suggestion that someone might have an opposing viewpoint.

If you have to be openly bitchy and disrespectful to make your point, then maybe your point isn't as valid as you think. Just a thought.

kpsisu - Point taken. Breasts don't wave. Although I suspect that you may well have realized that my use of this word wasn't meant to be taken literally, so congrats on taking a cheap shot just because you disagree with me.

*TheSoyMilkConspiracy*

I didn't mean to make a generalized statement about how much servers make. But in every restaurant I have worked in in my state, that has been the average. And yes I know that you can either go well below or above the average at any given shift. But I also know that when I bring my family in, I always try to tip big because I know what it's like to have to clean up after kids in a restaurant. One particular restaurant I used to work in, I would purposely NOT seat one of our servers with any family w/kids because I knew how much he hated it.

Kids leave everything sticky because they don't know how to use utensils yet and stick everything in their mouth. If they see you dip your food in something, they dip their hand in it and then lick their fingers and then touch you and touch the table and then lick some more. Honestly, the way kids eat is gross but it's how they eat until they learn to use utensils without poking their eye out.

"Touche, Phether. But then again, pooping at the dinner table is natural for babies, too... until we teach them to know better."

I'll buy into the ol' Hume argument of "you can't get an 'ought' from an 'is'"--basically, just because something "is" natural does not mean that it "ought" to be considered in a certain light (you end up projecting your own feelings on those things anyway, blah blah blah, etc). However, I don't see women waving their breasts about when they breastfeed. Until I see a lactating woman going from table to table at a diner offering to squirt some milk into their coffee mugs, I just don't see the big deal.

princess, your views just aren't very feminist like... sorry.

Trash Queen, As God as my witness as a single feminist working mother with a really cool important job who breastfed in public, I hope to God you get knocked up with triplets. One more kid than you have tits would serve you right.

Princess- how were your comments not bitchy or disrespectful?

Trash Queen, As God as my witness as a single feminist working mother with a really cool important job who breastfed in public, I hope to God you get knocked up with triplets. One more kid than you have tits would serve you right.
*Cracks up* That is so awesome.

I also don't plan on having children, but the point is that the biological reason women develop breasts is to nourish their children after they're born for a certain period of time. Just because you don't plan on having children doesn't mean your breasts, nipples and all, developed just to sit there. That's the point.

A couple of thoughts:

One, all those (presumably male) pediatricians who recommend that women breast feed for a year, or a year and a half - do they assume that all moms have the kind of money where they can afford to take 18 months off from work after giving birth?

My sister's obstotrician talked her into taking 2 years off from work to "bond" with her daughter.

Since my sister had a non union no seniority temp job with the Port Authority (and a live in boyfriend who was in prison, and therefore couldn't help with the bills) that doctor encoruaged decision led to her losing her job, car and apartment and having to sleep on our grandmother's couch for the next 10 years.

I don't know when infant formula got so demonized - or when the idea that only moms can feed babies and they have to feed by the breast became the only acceptable ideology.

It sounds so medieval to me - why not just use similac, and be done with it?

Hell, I was a similac baby, and I came out fine!

And, from what my female friends who have kids tell me, breastfeeding is pretty damned unpleasant (my former roomate gave up on it after 2 weeks, because of the pain).

Maybe the pediatricians, and the La Leche League breastfeeding fanatics, want to keep women tied to the kitchen, the bedroom and the baby carriage!

"Still, I'm missing where that justifies the many subsequent posts being openly insulting and antagonistic towards anyone that not 100% comfortable with breast feeding.

Posted by: Roni"
It's not about her not being 100% comfy with it. It's about her not being 100% comfy with it and therefor wishing to place restrictions on EVERYONE ELSE because of it.

"Maybe the pediatricians, and the La Leche League breastfeeding fanatics, want to keep women tied to the kitchen, the bedroom and the baby carriage!"

No, Gregory. Breastfeeding is healthy and natural. Formula feeding is a reasonable option as well. The fight here is the fight to ensure that women get to choose, and that they aren't shamed for reasonable choices or for reasonable behaviors. Breastfeeding a hungry baby in public is a reasonable behavior. Any suggestion to the contrary is, in my opinion, either part of a hang-up or part of an anti-woman agenda.

I find it very odd that ppl are so quick to define what I or other ppl should be allowed to do in public.

For the record, if I ever find myself breastfeeding anybody I see no reason why I should be discreet for somebody else's discomfort.

I stand on the idea that if what you're doing is not hurting anybody it shouldn't be criminalized/ regulated/demonized/etc.

So bleh. I don't get all this 'ewe! breastmilk!' As long as nobody's squirting it at me, I honestly don't care.

But OTOH, what's with this binary breast issue? I should think that my breasts should be able to be sexual and functional and pwetty and anything else I'm feeling like at any given moment regardless of where I am or where the trolls are.

And for the record, I don't think I would enjoy eating under a blanket...

Well, um... ah... I take that back... but what happens between two consulting adult females doesn't really have anything much to do with this thread ;P

"And until breasts stop being viewed as erongenous zones, there will be people who are weirded out by breastfeeding in public."

So, you obviously see that the reason people have a problem with breastfeeding in public is because they sexualize it. Yet your proposal to help combat this is "be discreet" or "cover up" or "go to a lactating room or restroom." That seems to be exacerbating the problem rather than helping solve it.

And, this is the most important part...as so many others have pointed out... it is perfectly LEGAL to breastfeed in public. It's the LAW. That means you don't get to tell them to cover up or leave. Period.

PS An earlier poster said she was from the Midwest and had never heard of lactating rooms. I am also from the Midwest and had never heard of them until this thread, so, it's a non-option for a lot of women. And, breastfeeding in a public bathroom...GROSS. I have a hard enough time peeing in those, I certainly wouldn't feed a child in there.

"And until breasts stop being viewed as erongenous zones, there will be people who are weirded out by breastfeeding in public."

So, you obviously see that the reason people have a problem with breastfeeding in public is because they sexualize it. Yet your proposal to help combat this is "be discreet" or "cover up" or "go to a lactating room or restroom." That seems to be exacerbating the problem rather than helping solve it.

And, this is the most important part...as so many others have pointed out... it is perfectly LEGAL to breastfeed in public. It's the LAW. That means you don't get to tell them to cover up or leave. Period.

PS An earlier poster said she was from the Midwest and had never heard of lactating rooms. I am also from the Midwest and had never heard of them until this thread, so, it's a non-option for a lot of women. And, breastfeeding in a public bathroom...GROSS. I have a hard enough time peeing in those, I certainly wouldn't feed a child in there.

Sorry for the double post.

PS An earlier poster said she was from the Midwest and had never heard of lactating rooms. I am also from the Midwest and had never heard of them until this thread, so, it's a non-option for a lot of women.

I live in the west, well in Oregon in fact, where more women breastfeed than anywhere else in the country and I still have yet to find a lactation room.

I guess tone is in the eye of the reader, but I have said numerous times that I can see points on both sides, that I'm really just trying to understand, etc. I would that would help you to determine that I mean what I'm saying in a sincere, searching kind of way. In return, I get called pathological and my views anti-feminist.

Honestly, knocking a person down for having the audacity to share an opposing viewpoint WHILE that person is acknowledging others' points and asking sincere questions seems pretty low. How the hell is anyone supposed to learn anything if all we do is attack anyone who thinks differently from us?

I agree with pajamas. I am all for feminism. But I know that if I were eating and looked up and caught a glipse of some ladies naked breast while I was chewing my food, it would completely make my stomach turn. There are just certain things you do not want to see while you're eating.
I do understand that children need to eat as well, which is why I say, surely you're not going to be in the restaurant with your child for hours and hours, can this not wait until you leave? Or can't it be done before you arrive? I do understand if you bring your child to eat and he/she won't stop crying because of hunger. If you have absolutely no other place to go, such as a car or something, then sure, I understand...but at least try to cover up your breast, and not be facing everyone else in the restaurant. Try and be discreet, if the feeding is an absolute must at the time. Otherwise, I do not see how this is a feminist issue.
My mother has had four children, and somehow she has found a way to not breastfeed in public!!

If feminism is about equality, what happened to "no shirt, no shoes, no service"?

Feeding or not, it still requires removing clothing. I don't think it's that much of a problem to find an alternate way of feeding your child for only a few hours.

Here's my question: for those of you who are so opposed to seeing a breast in public - why? What is it about the breast that is so offensive to you? Why are you so bothered by something that is being used in the most basic biological way possible? While the child is feeding, you cannot see nipple, or even most of the breast. We're talking sideswell, maybe some at the top. So what's so offensive to you about that? I'm honestly curious, because it wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

Stephanie7 and erinairout:
As has already been stated, women have a LEGAL right to breastfeed in public. Whether you like it or not. I am sorry if it sounds rude or condecending but it's just a simple fact. You may not like it, but it is the law.

I personally don't care for big public displays of affection while I'm eating (or anytime really), it turns my stomach, but I don't have the right to tell a couple to stop making out. I just stop looking. That generally solves my discomfort.

Feeding or not, it still requires removing clothing. I don't think it's that much of a problem to find an alternate way of feeding your child for only a few hours.

Umm, I never removed any clothing to breastfeed. I lifted up, or down or unbuttoned clothing, but never removed it.

Plus, women get hasseled while breastfeeding even if they use a blanket/are discreet. Hell I even got hasseled at work when I pumped/breastfed in my office with the door closed and a co-worker burst in without knocking and saw it (I locked from then on). So there you go. Just stop looking, problem solved.

Maybe there should be a special room for nursing mothers, keep them away from the rest of us so we can enjoy that crap that Applebee's serves.

Would it be ok if I stare while the mother feed the kid? How about if I take pictures.

It is in a public place!

Go!

Bazoo stop being such a troll. Nothing excuses you from being a creepy pervert at the expense of others.

...And make sure you don't post the pictures on facebook. You'll get in trouble, and I bet you have enough problems in that area to begin with.

I'm with you, Kimmy. I don't understand why the breast is so offensive.
Full-disclosure--I was raised by nudists. My parents didn't go naked around the house when I was there but in my family, the naked form wasn't sexualized.
Also, erinairout, have you ever really seen someone breastfeed? Your comment makes me think you haven't because you really don't have to take anything off to breastfeed.
Living in the NYC area, you see A LOT more flesh just walking around than you would seeing a woman breastfeed. D00d, I was riding the PATH yesterday and saw a woman wearing a bra with a fishnet shirt over it. Totally inappropriate by my standards, so I just lifted my magazine further up and I couldn't see it anymore.
I'm not going to get into the bottle feeding vs. breast feeding battle, because it's a very individualized problem. But I will say that something so vital to the health of a baby as feeding really does outweigh your temporary discomfort. A baby can't control when it's hungry, but you can learn to control your physical reaction, you can change your environment.

I'm going to stand by the word 'pathological' for anyone who can equate breastfeeding with shitting or whose stomach turns at the sight of a breast. No apologies there.

If feminism is about equality, what happened to "no shirt, no shoes, no service"?

Feeding or not, it still requires removing clothing. I don't think it's that much of a problem to find an alternate way of feeding your child for only a few hours.

Firstly, I don't have to take my shirt off to breastfeed my child.

Secondly, I'd like you to explain to my 8 month old that she has to have an alternate way to eat for a few hours. If you'd like to hold my screaming child and try to make her take a bottle, by all means, be my guest. I guarantee everyone around would be happier if I just let her nurse as usual.

I can also guarantee you that even without something covering us, you'd still see more of my 42J's from the top of the modest V-neck I'm wearing than you will when my daughter's attached to my nipple with the shirt pulled up a bit.

The flab on my belly is a hell of a lot more offensive than the teeny tiny amount of boob you might see. ;P

Would it be ok if I stare while the mother feed the kid? How about if I take pictures.
It's like a walking visual aid! See! Sexualization of the breast. It's THIS atitude that needs to change, not the breastfeeding mothers.

It makes me wonder how many of you who aren't comfortable with public breastfeeding have actually seen public breastfeeding?

Chances are you have, and you just don't realize it. You know why? Because you can quietly and discreetly place your child up to your nipple with very few problems at all. The only thing showing might be a portion of your belly and the back of the baby's head. I'm not sure why everyone seems to think that the whole damn boob needs to be exposed to breastfeed. Quick biology lesson here: milk only comes out of the nipple. Seriously! That's the only part that needs to be exposed, and by "exposed" I mean "hidden in a baby's mouth."

And, yes, this is absolutely a feminist issue. Think about this for a bit:

1)A woman walks down the street and gets comments yelled at her by construction workers about her "tits." The construction workers can't help it--a breast is so sexually charged that they can't help but yell about it.

2)A woman is groped in a club and is told it's her fault because of her low cut top. The other club goer couldn't help himself, after all, breasts are erogenous zones.

3)A woman is asked to stop breastfeeding because her breast is so sexually charged that other patrons can't help but be offended by it.

How is one not like the others? How?

It is my boob. It is not your right to stare at it. It being exposed to a small degree whether by my breastfeeding or by my wearing a tank top does not make my boob public property--it is still my boob. It does not give you the right to touch, yell at, stare at, or make comments about it. Period. To say otherwise you might as well say that a rape victim was asking for it because of the nature of her outfit. Was the breastfeeding mom "asking" for it too? Asking to be called out and publicly humiliated because the stupid slut just couldn't keep her boob in check?

I also wanted to point out the hypocrisy of some of the people that think that it's wrong if a woman has an "agenda" and nurses in public for "attention", or can't stand the "boob nazis" (gah, I hate that term) and their protests.

Just how exactly do you think that you're able to sit here and call yourself a feminist? It wasn't a hundred years ago that our grandmothers got the same type of derisive comments for marching for women's suffrage. It wasn't 50 years ago that the "original" feminists were being called all kinds of stuff for standing on college campuses and courthouse steps and burning their bras. Those women were just calling attention to themselves too.

Historically speaking, protesting peacefully and speaking in a loud voice to say "This is wrong, and I'm not going to take it any more" is about the only way to get something accomplished in this country.

Until MORE women breastfeed in public, it is going to continue to be taboo. Breasts are going to continue to be sexualized. The reason that breastfeeding in public in many European countries isn't a big deal, is because it's NOT a big deal...it's commonplace.

So as a nursing mother, while I do appreciate that some businesses do offer "nursing rooms", I shouldn't be forced to use them. Separate but equal isn't good enough for me. Why should I miss out on everything going on around me because I might offend someone's delicate sensibilities by nursing my child?

Because the fact of the matter is, there are people that are offended by breastfeeding in public, whether you can see the woman's breast or not. I have had friends that have endured rude comments, WHILE using a cover-up. I know a woman that got called nasty names while burping her child AFTER feeding him...because OMG, someone realized that she didn't have a bottle nearby, so she must have been breastfeeding!

Nothing is going to change until we ask for change.

If that doesn't follow feminist ideals, then I don't know what does.

Princess Pajamas: "Waving private parts around in public is against the social contract."

First of all, it's interesting that you can be overly passionate about your view, but should someone else who doesn't agree with you steps up to the same plate, all of a sudden you whip out the word 'bitchy'? How unfeminist.

And, umm...isn't feminism about challenging these so-called
'social contracts' (written overwhelming by patriarchy)? Last time I checked, I never signed one. I don't have kids and I'll be damned if I'm going to let other people dictate to me when where and how I choose to feed my kids.

This smacks of the 'the only moral abortion is my own' issue. Let's wait til you have kids yourselves before condemning the choices of actual mothers. Who knows, perhaps you'll find yourself needing to breastfeed in public one day--but wait, then your case will be different, right? That's what I thought.

I agree with the majority of other posters here: get over yourselves. And to breastfeeding women, feed on!

I'm too busy laughing over the idea that Applebee's is an adult-only place to take the rest seriously. You might want to tell them that. You know they offer special hammocks to put infant carseats in, right? As do a zillion other restaurants?

Of course now that he's older he makes a huge mess on the floor, but I always try to clean up behind us and make it easier for the waitress/busser. I know what it's like to be in their shoes. But honestly, it IS their job. Someone else mentioned that these poor waiters/bussers are only making like $4.30/hr. Well, once you include tips it generally averages out to $11-12/hr.

Posted by: Gina

It is my "job" to take your order, bring you food, drinks, napkins, cutlery, ground black pepper(if desired), dessert, the check, a to-go box---NOT to parent your child and teach him/her basic manners. By your logic, everyone and their children should be able to make the largest mess possible in every restaurant they go to BECAUSE IT IS A SERVER'S JOB TO CLEAN UP AFTER THEM. It must be nice to have such a strong sense of entitlement!

It is called "behaving like a civilized person." Look into it. I might have the right to soil myself in public and smear my excrement on the floor and demand that some wage slave clean it up, after all, it is THEIR JOB, but does that make it right? Or even appropriate? I might have the "right" to take my food off my plate and spread it all over the table, floors, and chair, and arrogantly demand that someone else clean up my mess---but, again, is this the way you wish to treat people that will be preparing food that you are going to ingest? Is being rude what being a parent is all about?

Oh, and in an ideal world, Gina, people tip. IN AN IDEAL WORLD. I don't know how many times I have gone out of my way to provide excellent service at my upscale restaurant, only to be rewarded with no tip, or a dollar tip on a two hundred dollar bill. I guess I am being so inconsiderate in expecting at least ten percent, right? Also featured in this IDEAL WORLD of yours---servers who make below minimum wage who magically(!) make up the difference in tips! Let me know when the next train to this utopia of yours departs, Gina.

On a side note, I don't know why everyone is out for The Trash Queen's blood. She doesn't like children----isn't part of feminism having a choice? I am also a child-free woman, perhaps a bit less vehement about it, but I am disturbed by all of the patronizing "SOMEONE doesn't like children! Tsk, tsk!" comments that I have seen.

Anyway. Hello. Long time listener, first time caller....

yourfuneralmytrial: "On a side note, I don't know why everyone is out for The Trash Queen's blood. She doesn't like children----isn't part of feminism having a choice?"

Yes, it is about choice. Most of the posters here aren't saying you have to like kids, just that you shouldn't impose you dislike on others, privileging your own discomfort above everyone else's. You're definitely free to not like children, just as much as a breastfeeding mother is free to feed her child. One does not cancel out the other.

Definitely anti-children vibes going on here, which trickle down the misogyny vine. You don't have to like kids to think the radical idea (echoeing feminism here): that kids are people too. Gasp!

Thanks AngryYoungFemme, you put it the way I want to. I don't think any women who have said they have children/breastfeed have said anything other than the point you brought up. I fully respect the child free choice, I just don't think that I should be marginalized because that isn't the choice I made.

Exactly, Pheather. And if posters are upset at Trash Queen's posts, then it's because of the unnecessary vilification of mothers as a group. You don't like mothers/children? Fine, as someone else posted up top, there are racists out there, but that doesn't give them any more of a right to discriminate against people of any particular skin color than it gives mother/children haters the right to discriminate against mothers and children.

Not every woman is going to make the same choice as any other women. Thus feminisms' fight for choices, not more limitations.

Delurking here to respond to Roni, Pajamas, and those others who are "not 100% comfortable about breastfeeding": Perhaps you need to investigate where this discomfort comes from. It is (almost certainly) the product of a cultural bias that you have been taught - and taught in the context of the perverse attitute of American culture toward breasts. Some degree of squeamishness about shitting, pissing, etc, is at least a biologically useful instinct that minimizes disease transmission and such. Tits. not so much. They provide a useful product, not a waste product. If you feel there is something just a little icky about witnessing that, it's because you have been corrupted by the twisted bizarre attitute that mainstream American culture has built up around breasts: they are supposed to be cute cuddly attractive objects to be flaunted decoratively, not actually USED. I am genuinely not trying to be insulting or demeaning here, but if you have a problem with a woman breastfeeding in your general vicinity, the problem is in your head, not in her behavior.

anti-child= misogyny?

Hrm. While I can agree with the majority of what you wrote, AYF, I cannot get behind this statement. Forgive me if I am taking it out of context, but it seems to me that you are saying that because I dislike children, and do not wish to procreate, then I have an underlying current of misogyny running through me?

Until MORE women breastfeed in public, it is going to continue to be taboo. Breasts are going to continue to be sexualized.

Amen. I was sitting at the airport while reading this thread this morning/afternoon, and wouldn't you know - a woman at my gate quietly breastfed her child as we waited to board. I wanted to give her a high-5.

Breastfeeding does not involve "waving your tits around." Not at all. God. Some of you are like a bunch of middle-schoolers.
I've seen a lot of women breasfeed but I've never, ever seen a woman "wave her tit around" or splash milk all over the place. This misinformed attitude towards breastfeeding reflects digust towards women's bodies.
Breasts are not dirty or naughty. There's no reason, besides fucked-up socialization, anyone should be scandalized by the sight of a woman's breast (not that breastfeeding even exposes much breast at all).

Breasts in advertising, in music videos, in Playboy are A-OK to most people because they're being "used" for men's titilation. Now everyone in this damn country thinks that's why breasts exist - that's their purpose. Breasts CAN titilate, but BREASTFEEDING IS NOT SEXUAL.

Now I feel like getting knocked up just to breastfeed.

M.S: I agree. This has more to do with the turn towards ornamentalism from utilitarinism pre-WWII in this country.

yourfuneralmytrial: I'm not implying that you have an "underlying current of misogyny running through" you. I'm simply connecting the dots between misogyny and anti-feminist sentiments with those of anti-children sentiments. And that was directed at the entire thread, not you. Like I said, happy days to you and your dislike of children, I couldn't care less. It's when that dislike becomes discrimination against children that I take issue with. And yes, this connection between misogyny and hating children/anti-children attitudes have been raised before, I by no means lay claim to the origin of that thought. For more info on this, please check out the archives at blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com, Twisty explains this with far more eloquence than I ever could.

Perhaps one should ask oneself why one dislikes children and go from there. Being a radical feminist, I prefer to get to the root of the matter.

And, again, I am in no way insinuating that you are a misogynist. Just that there is some truth to the idea that children-hating (not disliking, mind you) trickles down the misogyny vine.