Repression takes some odd forms. I love how religious types like to dress up their dirty sex acts like they are some kind of wholesome godly responsibility.

"No honey I promise I am not getting off, God just really wants my to spank you through some crotchless pantaloons."

In case you are wondering here is how to get your parter to spank or be spanked
http://christiandomesticdiscipline.com/articlesintroducingspouse.html

Hahaha! The following is at the end of their page, regarding eroticism and spanking. I am really not sure what to think. Hmmm, I think the message is something like, "combine wife-beating with BDSM practices, and we're also okay with it." Thoughts?

The quote is below.

Eroticism:

"Though we recognize by its very nature this subject can be erotic, we will keep this website as clean and wholesome as possible. However, we will not seek to deny the erotic nature of some CDD marriages as we believe it is a natural consequence of following God's plan. After all, He created eroticism to be enjoyed inside a Christian marriage."

Church: the new bdsm play party hot spot.

It's like 2,000 years of pent up sexual frustration is about to burst at the seems. With all of the Republican (and some democrat) sex scandals with dick sucking and under age pages, prostitution (or "massages" as they like to call it) and now this the christian right is just struggling to have their cake and eat it to. They want to chastise the left (feminists and the gay community) for being out and proud with their kinkiness while coming up with crap like this in order to indulge in theirs. CDD my ass.

Well, not my ass, at least not from one of them. I'll take my spanking from someone who's comfortable with his sexuality thank you.

If the spanking is "consentual," what's the point?
You don't spank your kids because kids are all gung-ho for it, you do it because you know they don't like it - that's why it's punishment.

i just lost my lunch. that is really really scary.

This is really upsetting to me. I wish I could be like those who can laugh about the sheer absurdity of it, but this is just too close to domestic violence for me to be able to brush this off as another stupid thing Christians do. I'm horrified.

It's done hard enough to make the woman cry. Tell me again how that's not violence?

I'm torn, the only way you could distinguish a consensual 24/7 dom/sub relationship and a CDD marriage is by church attendance.

Can something be so old-fashioned that it becomes cutting edge again? The evidence mounts...

"We practice CDD-lite in our home as it is a concept that I have brought to my husband and one that he is still getting comfortable with."

This the rhetoric definitely sounds like a partner introducing a new erotic element.

"I felt my stomach drop when I saw my husband bring out a heavy belt."

How is that NOT abuse? "Consensual spanking" is one thing, but these men are beating their wives with belts!

People say atheists are so intolerant of other people's religions, and sometimes we are, but how do you expect any sane person to be tolerant of religious beliefs used to hurt people and keep them down? This is just disgusting and horrific.

I'm a long time reader delurking to comment here. I'm 23 and I think what scared me away from "feminist" sites initially is the tendency to make value judgments about how other grown women CHOOSE to live their lives.

I feel like this is one of those cases. If the women really are consenting then it's none of my business what they do in their crotchless pantaloons.

"I felt my stomach drop when I saw my husband bring out a heavy belt."

How is that NOT abuse? "Consensual" spanking is one thing, but this man is beating his wife with a belt! I think if someone did that to their kids, they'd be taken away from them by now.

It's just horrific. I try to be tolerant of religion, because everyone has the right to beleive whatever they want, but this is using Christianity to justify the oppression and abuse of people. It's disgusting.

It really amazes what people will come up with to justify ridiculous actions such as spaking your wife. How is this healthy for marriage at all, treating your wife like a child? It really makes me cringe to see things like this and think, "My god, there's someone out there who thinks this is the appropriate course of action to take against one's spouse." Makes me think of some kind of Daddy Fetish.

Also in the store are some books that they don't dare call erotic. Here's an excerpt from "Peace in the Home":
About to slip out of the shed, she was halted by Brad's sharp voice. "Stay right where you are, Rose."

Annoyed to be forestalled but not daring in view of his new mood of authority to defy him, Rose halted, still rubbing her bottom, and watched in puzzlement as he set up the sawhorse in the centre of the floor. Perhaps he was going to make her stay here so he could keep an eye on her while he did some work. Although that didn't make sense. He'd been working all day and was surely ready for a rest and some dinner.

While her mind chased around the possibilities, Brad pulled his jacket off and draped it over the centre of the sawhorse. Then, at last, he looked at Rose and she read his intention in his eyes.

The thing that perpetuates domestic violence the most is the ability of the abuser to make the victim feel like it is their fault. I don't buy the consensual bit at all nor does my husband of 30 years. To spank someone is to tell them they are no better than a child. How demeaning.

Don't even think about going out in public while you're on your pyramid. That's an offense that's punishable by death, ladies.

"Consent" is such a watery concept, and I think that the issue is whether the women are "really" consenting.

You can explicitly consent to things that you don't actually want to do for a lot of reasons - because you're scared, because it's the best option out of a bad lot, because you feel obligated to do so, because it's the only way to say physically safe. I can point to a number of times in my life where I have "consented" despite not wanting to do so, and I am a well-educated, white middle class woman who grew up in a non-religious household, all of which supports the ability to make choices free from duress or other limiting factors.

So when an oppressive, patriarchal religion with a rich history of coercive tactics advocates domestic violence under the guise of "consensual" domestic discipline, my first instinct is not to shrug and think, "Eh, live and let live," but to closely question the nature of the "consent" given.

Following coasttocoast's comment, and reading the website founders' constituent blogs, it really reads like some former BDSMers who found the Lord and wanted to integrate their previous lifestyle.

But I'm also leaning towards Samantha's point of view above, absent the rampant concern trolling.

Remember the girl scout debate from awhile back, I believe girl scouts are the feminist bootcamp people were asking for, and so does the antifeminist woman from the CDD site who wrote this article titled "Why My Daughter is not a Girl Scout" and includes all the reasons why my daughters will be!!, dont miss other information on how to raise a brainwashed daughter who will grow up to be a good "wife" (read as slave)

http://christiandomesticdiscipline.com/lcgirlscouts.html

"Unlike the Baptists for Brownback campaign Jen wrote about awhile ago, this site appears to be legit. Not a parody."

Any site that sells crotchless pantaloons is probably a parody.

Even if this site was legitimate, it's so wacko that it may as well be a parody.

In the glossary:
"Maintenance Spanking: Spankings given in regular intervals for the purpose of maintaining a submissive mindset in a wife, correcting minor faults, and/or reinforcing marital roles."

Marital roles? "Maintaing a submissive mindset in a wife"? Wow. Nothing says I love you like a good maintenance spanking.

"I feel like this is one of those cases. If the women really are consenting then it's none of my business what they do in their crotchless pantaloons."

Err.. I don't think I agree with that.

If there is an entire social system dedicated teaching women to be subservient, to submit to physical punishment, and to otherwise be less worthy than men, that strikes me as problematic.

It's one thing to give people the freedom to make choices. That doesn't mean we can't make judgments regarding whether we think those choices are good or bad.

"I'm a long time reader delurking to comment here. I'm 23 and I think what scared me away from "feminist" sites initially is the tendency to make value judgments about how other grown women CHOOSE to live their lives.

I feel like this is one of those cases. If the women really are consenting then it's none of my business what they do in their crotchless pantaloons."

After years of submitting to abuse, however, at what point does it cease to be a choice? I am thinking learned helplessness here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness

OMG I'm agreeing with UCLAbodyimage again. Help!

Yes, a choice is only as free as the context within which it exists.

On another point, I'm beginning to think this is both parody and porn.

This is from the guestbook:

I recently found this site and am so happy to. My husband and I have been practicing CDD for our entire marriage of 10 years. I plan on buying some of your too cute crotchless pantaloons ASAP! God bless our husbands for keeping us in line. I know I'm FAR too stupid to make it without a good healthy sexual filled beating once in awhile!

That cannot possibly be real, can it?

Those 'crotchless pantaloons' if you read further on the sites, are so the wife can never deny the husband 'access'.

Sick. Spanking and possible rape... oh wait, they are supposed to just submit to it anyway. >.

I'm sure all of these women "consent" to this lifestyle, but I'd be interested to know what happens if at any time they change their mind and don't want to do it anymore. Is there any such concept as "withdrawing consent" with these people?

I'm torn.

On the one hand, I believe that all people are ultimately able to make up their own minds about what they want done to their bodies (after all, we justify letting women get abortions because we say that we know our own minds and aren't the emotional airheads the patriarchy claims). That part of me wants to just say "the women on this site have consented to this lifestyle; it's no different to me enjoying a good lashing with rose stems, except they give the concept a religious bent".

On the other hand, I know that, sometimes, if you're taught to act a certain way from the day you are born (submissive, meek, obedient towards men) you may well say that you consent, or think you want something, when you don't. Like child prostitutes who don't run away, because the lifestyle is all they've known and because they can't imagine really escaping. Consent can only really be considered consent if there is no risk in saying "no", no guilt or loss of value perceived in refusing, and no consequences. Also, what is the point to saying "yes" or "no" when you know damn well he's gonna do it anyway?

I guess the main thing for me is that the site treats the laws view of "non-consensual CDD" or "wife-beating" as an unwanted burden; ever present, and not something to openly criticize. In contrast, most BDSM websites will have a section all about the difference between pain and harm, and consensual spankings and abuse.

But I have to admit, I anted to giggle after I say those crotchless pantaloons... I might have to get a pair, myself.

Those 'crotchless pantaloons' if you read further on the sites, are so the wife can never deny the husband 'access'.

Sick. Spanking and possible rape... oh wait, they are supposed to just submit to it anyway. >.

History tidbit about crotchless pantaloons! The ones for sale up yonder are a version of authentic traditional "drawers" which were basically two tubes connected at the waist. No crotches on those suckers.

In the hoop-skirt era, when women wore many layers of restrictive garments, they were sometimes physically unable to pull down pants or pantaloons. Therefore, many undergarments were crotchless so that they could go to the bathroom without having to call in someone to help.

And to top it off it's hosted by GoDaddy.

something that caught my eye:

"Therefore we will do not condone nonconsensual CDD as a rule."

how many people will read "we will" and how many will read "do not"..????

cycles: You remind me of one of my favorite tidbits about the Globe Theatre and the "groundling" area in front of the stage. Women could just spread their legs a bit and go when they needed to because no one could see under the large dresses. :)

On another note: "as another stupid thing Christians do." Yes, because ALL Christians choose to spank their wives. Can we be a little more conscious of the stereotyping going on? This is a small (misguided) group of a much larger and more complex group and we shouldn't be lumping everyone together like all those who believe Jesus died on the cross are nutters who support the CDD.

I'd like to point out that "consent" made under threat of violence isn't consent at all. And the threat of "damnation by an almighty God" is a helluva threat (for a believer, that is).

If it were genuinely consentual sexplay or whatever, that's cool, but this is just FUBAR.

From Debbie's Blog:

"My backside is so sore I can hardly sit down. Imagine how relieved I was that the scale was nice to me this morning."

And this is a real gem: "Second he could have sat down and discussed this calmly with me. Does anyone not on t.v. really do this? I'm sure that it wouldn't leave to much of an impression on me."

Yeah, it's *so* much easier to get whipped with a belt fifteen times than it is to let a conversation go on for a couple of hours. /sarcasm

This is just so disturbing and incredibly frustrating to read this woman's post and her responses to comments.

The actual CDD site is filled with all sorts of links as to why feminism is evil and bad, citing all the usual ridiculous arguments that feminists are nothing but angry man haters.

This whole thing is making my head want to explode.

You should read the part in their blog that talked about how single girls should stop deluding themselves that they're smart enough for self-control, and how they should stop being stuck in adolescence and get-a-man already. Real warm and fuzzy. Of course it's right after the pseudo-explicit commentary upon the best position (complete with anecdotes).

But my take on the what-if-your-wife-stops wanting-to-be-hit at your discretion, you obviously need to step up the frequency of your maintainence spankings.

I think some of these ppl might just be a couple steps from administering 'helpful' spankings to the rest of us too. Gawd...

So here is my favorite quote from the introducing your wife to CDD:
"7. If she is afraid of spanking or completely set against it, begin with alternative punishments."

What do you think 'alternative punishments' would be?

Maybe hitting her over the head with a bible? They advocate elsewhere on the site to double-looping your belt and smacking her ass with it until she 'consents' to putting herself 'OTK'.

If this site wasn't quite so weird I think I'd be really depressed over this... instead I'm just slightly disturbed.

This is really just incredibly sad, especially the women who are encouraging their husbands to get into this practice. Aren't they confident enough in themselves to discipline themselves? I beat myself up mentally if I do something wrong. I don't need a beating to be reminded.

If a woman attempted to withdraw consent, that would be an act of disobedience, so she would then be beaten into submission.
This is the closed circle that made slavery so successful for so many years.

"OMG I'm agreeing with UCLAbodyimage again. Help!

Yes, a choice is only as free as the context within which it exists."

Eeeek!!!!!!

Perhaps someone has hijacked my account! :-)!

And an entirely appropriate 'Anti-Feminist' Section also exists within the site:

http://christiandomesticdiscipline.com/lcfeminism.html

Complete with some "Feminist Quotes" to point out how skewed the visions of feminists are.

I guess I am not the only one who becomes extremely upset upon viewing sites like this. Its just out-fucking-rageous to me that people really live this way.
I feel bad for these women who are so deluded and have such a low self esteem that they will fall for anything.
I have heard even mainstream Christians (an acquaintance of mine) speak of how the wife should serve her husband as she does the lord. I just can't comprehend this frame of mind!
Ive never read the bible cover to cover but if this is whats in it, then I guess I am all set.
Sorry, my thoughts are all over the place, but crap like this really upsets me!

"It really amazes what people will come up with to justify ridiculous actions such as spaking your wife. How is this healthy for marriage at all, treating your wife like a child?"

OTOH one could argue that someone who spanks both his wife and his kids isn't treating his wife like a child, he's treating his kids like BDSM foreplay partners (especially if he lays a child over his crotch in order to smack the child's ass)...

You know what? I've gone from feeling sympathy for these women to downright hating them.

Why do you hate them, SarahMC?

I am seriously conflicted in my reaction to these folks.

I don't pass judgment on lifestyle BDSM couples. Who am I to decide how they should follow their bliss?

Yet the inescapable fact of the matter is that these CDD people look like fundamentalists and fundamentalists freak me out bigtime.

"CDD is so much more than just spanking. It is the husband loving the wife enough to guide and teach her, and the wife loving the husband enough to follow his leadership"

Sounds like BDSM to me. I read some of the blog entries and I same surprised that these women do not know they are being completely controled by these men. The one women said she has to ask her husband everyday directly for a spanking between when he gets home from work at 9 pm. If she doesn't ask she gets two the next day. Then the other women whose quote was posted about getting spanked for leaving a burner on, was spanked again when her father called her and mentioned she had done something similar again?! Even if this was as they claim, a way of becoming a better person through being displined by their partners, I find it pretty extreme they get punished for making MISTAKES.

Holy shit, I just read a blog entry and I'm really regretting it. First off, how can someone think this isn't sexual? The woman described how she had to be completely nude prior to her spankings and wait for her husband in their bedroom. Then the spanking happens (with belts or paddles) - I can't help but wonder how she might explain that to her children if they walked in?!?!

Then she said that he goes till he breaks the skin sometimes, and if she's not sufficiently repentent at that point, he puts Vicks vaporub in the wounds!! I mean seriously?

(Hello, all. Longtimefirsttime.)

I've come across a lot of this "domestic discipline" business recently, and somewhat outside of the whole "must not judge consenting adults for the choices they make" vs. "but he's beating her, for crying out loud" question, one angle of it that strikes me as interesting is that, amid the obvious sexism of equating a woman's mind with a child's and saying that she needs her husband's guidance and discipline in order to function in the adult world, you have the women's point of view: usually something along the lines of, "It's really been helpful to my struggle to improve my behavior to know that I'll be punished if I mess up."

To which my general feeling is, "Yeah, no shit." That's not a female quality. It's a human quality. We're all weak that way. We all do better when we know or feel that we're accountable to someone other than ourselves. That's a regular interaction between adults; it's why we have laws and punishments for breaking them, and why, going the other way, we value people who supposedly "ask the politicians the tough questions," why we admire Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein and are still kind of pissed at Gerald Ford. You ARE supposed to be accountable to other adults, not because you're a woman and he's a man -- maybe extra to your husband because you chose to marry him and be a family and you're both going to have to go out of your way for each other from time to time, but really, basically, it's just because he's a fellow human being, because you share a planet and a country and a community with him, because you share the burden of taking care of it, because you have to work with each other and for each other and you have to do it LIKE ADULTS.

What's most interesting to me about the "domestic discipline" lifestyle, about wives who choose to submit to their husbands or are conditioned or coerced into it, and buy into all this crap about their sinful natures, innate selfishness, emotional instability, weakness, childishness, etc., and decide they need the "guidance" of their more reasonable husbands, is that basically, they're absolving themselves from adulthood. They don't need to regulate their own actions or make an effort to be mature, because according to this propaganda, they're not supposed to be able to regulate their own actions, and they will never be mature. They're giving up their autonomy, but they're giving up their responsibility, too. By claiming that it's okay for them to be treated like children, they're giving themselves permission to ACT like children -- not in their standards for acceptable behavior, maybe, but in that they become dependent: not whole adults, not rational, not reliable, and not able to handle themselves. I wonder if that's part of the appeal -- in fact, I feel just about certain that it must be, for some of them.

I mean, think about it. Imagine being able to tell yourself that it's okay to have a jealous nature or a habit of misdirecting your anger, because you're a woman; and imagine not having to take the initiative in changing that about yourself. Of course it would be helpful if you knew that you would be actively *punished* for not making the necessary effort; but that's not what adults do, is it?

This is most definitely not a parody site. It is 100% real, and the "Leah" that they are talking about is Leah Kelley. She writes CDD "romance novels". The one where the white master spanks the slave is real doozy.

They used to be online somewhere but my old links to it don't work anymore.

I don't care what people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms but when they begin teaching it to others as the only Right and True(tm) way to live, it becomes indoctrination and they are teaching their children this crap--and that most definitely is without the children's informed consent.

This site is actually run by the spankees, not the spankers. I've had it out (briefly) with a CDDer on my blog recently. Glad to see it cropping up on other blogs now.

I'd also like to add that I must've been absent the day they taught us that spanking wives was biblical. I think it was the same day they taught us that hating teh gays and teh lesbians is a command from GOD ALMIGHTY. :)

Christina said: This is most definitely not a parody site. It is 100% real, and the "Leah" that they are talking about is Leah Kelley. She writes CDD "romance novels". The one where the white master spanks the slave is real doozy.

I found this in the glossary
Corner time: An alternative form of punishment where a wife is required to stand facing a corner, often with her bottom on display, before, during, or after a spanking.
What book of the Bible is that in, pray tell?

I thought that this was some joke picture from the 1950's or something, but God damn! And crotchless pantaloons? I'm just speechless...

I thought that this was some joke picture from the 1950's or something, but God damn! And crotchless pantaloons? I'm just speechless...

Are these for real? Here are excerpts from an essay for husbands on the site:

"Women nag, men spank. . . . However, the wife who has had a significant disciplinary experience from the top of her buttocks to the upper third of her thighs (down to what women of a few generations ago used to call the “stocking line�) will keep the matter to herself."

Someone asked about children witnessing the spankings. Here's the answer: "If one's children find out, it is not end of the world. Most children understand more than adults give the credit. In particular, children understand spanking far more than they understand bitterness and divorce."

And then there is the devil/woman issue and a new definition of the information highway (are you sure this is for real?):

"There are some parallels turning one's wife over one's knees and casting out devils. . . . There is an information highway created which runs from a woman's bottom to her mind as the evil spews from her mouth. It is the husband's responsibility to fill with love and assurance. Otherwise, he has simply engaged in an act of torture."

Yeah, all you need is love, love is all you need to turn abuse into kindness.
Sick.

While I agree that the CDD thing is ultimately fucked-up, I think it's a little more complicated than some people here are acknowledging.

For one thing, there's a whole non-Christian "domestic discipline" scene, that is very clearly about totally consensual 24/7 BDSM play. And in the non-Christian DD scene, there's a lot of variety as to who's doing the spanking: women spank men, men spank women, women spank each other, etc. There are even male/female couples where each partner has the "authority" to spank the other for punishment.

And for these folks, the fact that the spankings are for punishment is an essential part of the eroticism. If it's not in the context of real punishment, it doesn't do it for them. That may not be hot for you, but it's no reason to think that it's bad for them.

That being said, I do have serious problems with the CDD thing -- mostly having to do with religious indoctrination and questions of consent. The non-religious DD sites I've visited are very clear and unambiguous about how DD has to be 100% consensual and enthusiastically agreed to by all parties. The CDD site, by contrast, is very "wink wink" about consent, talking about how consent is important because it's legal, not because it's ethical. And of course, when you bring God's will into the equation and try to convince people that this is what God wants all marriages to look like and you'll burn in hell if you don't do it, you have some serious consent problems.

But THAT being said: It's clear that lots of people in this scene -- women and men -- are getting off on it big time. Women and men. The "romance" stories, mostly written by women and for women, are the porniest porn that ever porned. It's a weird scene: I'm sure some husbands are using it as the cover for abuse, and that is beyond fucked up. But I think there are other couples who are using it as the cover for a kink that they can't really admit they have. And that's fucked up in a completely different way.

(I've written more about this in a piece I wrote for the Blowfish blog . Sorry for the self-linkage, but it really is relevant.)

BTW, there are people who get off on being beaten with belts. I'm one of them. The intensity or severity of a kinky scene isn't a reliable barometer for how consensual it is.

You know, Christians are supposed to be honest. Why don't these people just admit that giving or receiving a good, hard smack on the ass gets 'em all tingly in the naughty parts? It's not Biblical, it's sexual. And/or abuse.

i just read some of the crap on this site!
*un*fucking*believable* (does that earn me a good crack on the backside?)

consent or not, i still consider it abuse. end of story. if a woman is being beaten by her husband, and she stays w/ him...is she any less beaten? or is she giving her consent by staying w/ him? if a child brings you the paddle/switch/belt, and you beat him w/ it, and he never complains, is that any less wrong (let me be clear that there are a few instances where a quick swat is warranted, ONLY by a hand on a backside...and still i ONLY ever did that if my child had put herself in immediate danger...so i am NOT judging people who choose to spank...but i do NOT agree w/ beating w/ foreign objects ever)?

just b/c someone doesn't believe they are being abused, and doesn't fight back against it doesn't make the abuse any less real. it is sad b/c that means that they have come to understand this as acceptable behavior. and what of the daughters and sons of these people? do these little boys believe that it is ok to spank little girls b/c daddy does it to mommy? doesn't "God" want him to be a good man too? is this behavior encouraged?

even better...the stuff at the end...about feminists...WOW! holy shit! i can not believe the stuff they spin! i especially loved the "quotes" from feminists...i read here and several other sites...and i have never read anything that leads me to believe that feminists are behind or agree w/ the crap they "quoted"...unless i am wrong about feminists and have been mislabeling myself! (except that stuff by gloria steinem...b/c i have a special place in my heart for her sometimes) where do they get their "feminist" definitions?
and when is the next "destroy the family unit" rally...b/c i don't want to miss that!!!

It's tomorrow at my house, ouyangdan. Lesbian sluts only please. I'll bring the shrimp ring.

This really does seem like people who can't admit to being kinky, so they put a religious spin on it.

I have been confused/terrified/exasperated by much I have read on this blog; however, I have never felt compelled to comment. Until NOW. This issue leaves me truly speechless. I don't know what to think. Maybe in a few hours, days, or months, I will have some idea of how to respond. As is true of some of the others leaving comments, I read some of the links and spent some time on these pages. I thought I would be able to toss the issue aside as BS Christian rhetoric, but I can't. This really does seem to be a much deeper problem. I'd love to be able to convince myself that this is just kinkiness-in-disguise, but it is something horrible. These poor women. Usually I want to set holders of this type of attitude straight, but it seems almost cruel in this case. I feel disgusted and sick and wish I could have remained ignorant to this degree of whatever effed-up-ness this is. Like I said, speechless.
(And thanks for bringing it to my/our attention, even though it makes me physically ill.)

I'm going to dip back in and echo CoasttoCoast: this is people who are kinky and aren't comfortable with it unless they believe it's approved by God.

Some Christian BDSMer is feelin' a bit guilty and then discovers a passage in the bible where the husband is allowed to "discipline" his wife and viola! they've got permission for zeh spankings. Eventually their tastes will evolve and it will be god ordained for the husband to put a ball and gag in the wife's mouth only in this case god decides the safe word. (here's a hint, it rhymes with "repent", oh wait, that's what it is).

But what pisses me off about the whole, men submit to God and women submit to their husbands, is that when it comes to men, their leader of the house isn't physically present. As a matter of fact they won't actually face their leader until they...DIE. Women, on the other hand, are handed off and are then at the beck and call of their "leader" pretty much for the rest of their lives.

It's pretty damn easy to be submissive when the master isn't there.

@others. This does just seems like Christians who get off on BDSM and feel guilty about it. Unfortunately like other repressions it turns unhealthy. Repressed gay men tend to go after young pages or offer uncover cops 20 bucks to blow them. Repressed BDSMers leaver the stove on so their husbands can whip em with a belt.

Personally when I see someone leave the stove on I tend to just say "hey you left the stove on, want me to turn it off for you" But I suppose a hot spanking works well too.

There are so many things wrong that it is hard to keep track of them all! A couple of the comments here say this is treating women like children. I disagree because children shouldn't be beaten either. Or pets for that matter.

In many countries the kind of the beatings the site seems to be talking about would count as out right child abuse out-right and would be illegal. (Unfortunately in many cases the enforcement of this is patchy to non-existent as there is a reluctance to separate children from parents).

To be clear - if you were to beat a child to this extent it would be considered abuse in most western countries. (These people sell arnica cream to help the bruises heal for gods' sake). In the case of interactions between adults there is some scope for genuine consent (and I'm not suggesting that should be interfered with).

It is hard to establish true consent, I think, when the consenting party is also convinced that they are not able to make their decisions on their own or be responsible to themselves for their actions.

In the case of a child this would be considered abusive partly because the child is not mature enough to give or withhold consent. The child is unable to protect themselves against manipulation by an adult. So to my mind the idea that women (who are not able to think for themselves) are actually giving meaningful consent is self contradictory.

(I'm sorry if I've not expressed this clearly, I hope you get the point I'm getting at, at least).

Are you SURE this is not a BDSM site dressed up?? I'm serious, I was in a relationship with a guy who had a spanking fetish, and everything on that site mirrors the exact fantasies that are common among spanking fetishists! Reading them actually turned me ON! But if this IS a real site...then no doubt, it's a group of Christians who feel they have to have an excuse to indulge their fetish. I can't believe for one minute that it has no sexual overtone.

One more thing and then I'm going to bed: I call dibs on making up a t-shirt that says, "I've Been Bad For Jesus." OR, "Have You Been Bad For Jesus."
:)

I find myself wondering the same thing as blondein_tokyo. As a feminist in a BDSM relationship (though unlike the CDD crowd, we take turns), reading through this site turned me on. Like reading erotica or something.
Now I don't know what to think. Unlike BDSM erotica, this site does not subscribe to the "safe, sane, and consensual" ethic of the BDSM community - and definately describes what I'd consider domestic abuse. But, despite my best intentions, I still find it hot. What is a feminist to do? (Probably just close the window.)

People comparing this to BDSM are missing the point. There is no safe word. There are no protections for the woman at all because this is coming from the position that she is inherently inferior and needs correcting. There is no acknowledgment or allowances for this being a scene, versus the natural order. This is not safe, sane, or consensual, the slogan of the BDSM scene. CDD removes all the safeguards that separates BDSM from actual abuse.

The site says that because of the LEGALITY they don't encourage non consensual beatings. That they think the law is wrong is hardly even subtext at this point.

There IS plenty of space devoted to pressuring a woman into consent. If she won't agree to consent, you can punish her in other ways. It also suggests recruiting your local clergy to pressure her into consenting.

The whole point of this site is framed around the idea that women cannot make decisions on her own with her tiny little female brain and needs a man to beat her into knowing right from wrong. They frame it as she CAN NOT give informed consent and then they instruct a husband on how to bully the consent out of her if she protests. The emotional abuse and consent obtained under duress in this movement is tailor made to circumvent a woman's ability to give informed consent as most of the world understands it.

Roni - I completely agree that this is not the same thing as Safe Sane Consensual BDSM - but it isn't just on this thread that the connection is made. Sir Don's (a 'Christian' wife-spanker) Yahoo site lists, among his other interests "D/s" - using the BDSM community's own lingo, and is friends with many traditional BDSM practitioners. And check out the store for the (downloadable!) spanking erotica

It doesn't seem off-base to look at this site as "BDSM gone wrong". One doesn't need to look to the CDD community to see this. While the safeguards put up by the community do help build consensual experiences, in reality there are BDSM folks who do manipulate their positions of power, and stretch the limits of what is SSC. This site demonstrates just how important the BDSM safeguards are, and the ultimate of what can happen when unkind practitioners do not take them seriously, or disregard them altogether. BDSM, when people get lazy, arrogant, or maybe are simply uneducated can and does go wrong. This site seems to epitomize the worst of what happens when people engage in erotic power-play and the rules go by the wayside.

Roni - I completely agree that this is not the same thing as Safe Sane Consensual BDSM - but it isn't just on this thread that the connection is made. Sir Don's (a 'Christian' wife-spanker) Yahoo site lists, among his other interests "D/s" - using the BDSM community's own lingo, and is friends with many traditional BDSM practitioners. And check out the store for the (downloadable!) spanking erotica

It doesn't seem off-base to look at this site as "BDSM gone wrong". One doesn't need to look to the CDD community to see tops pressuring bottoms (or vise-versa). While the safeguards put up by the community do help build consensual experiences, in reality there are BDSM folks who do manipulate their positions of power, and stretch the limits of what is SSC. This site demonstrates just how important the BDSM safeguards are, and the ultimate of what can happen when unkind practitioners do not take them seriously, or disregard them altogether. BDSM, when people get lazy, arrogant, or maybe are simply uneducated can and does go wrong. This site seems to epitomize the worst of what happens when people engage in erotic power-play and the rules go by the wayside.

OK I'm at the bottom of the comments so probably nobody will ready this, but here goes.

I knew a guy who went to Bob Jones University once. (Yes, the same one that denied interracial dating up until a few years ago). Apparently they assign demerits for practically everything, including holding hands in public.

He racked up so many demerits (about 200) that they gave him two choices: (A) he had to leave the university, or (B) he had to get rid of his demerits by getting a spanking for each one.

Naturally, he chose to leave. I couldn't believe the Southern Baptists were crazy enough to actually spank a grown person. But now that I've seen this website...it just makes me sick. Why even bother marrying a fully grown woman? Why not just take a young girl as a slave? That's biblical, right?

Seriously, I understand that some adult women would willingly consent to this bull, but I don't believe that most of them that say they do actually do. There's even a section on the page for how to brainwash your wife into thinking that she has to get spanked to improve the marriage! That is not consent.

Because, Peepers, of the hate they spew re: feminists. Male anti-feminists are bad, but I reserve special resentment for women who hate women. They talk a lot of shit about feminsits and spread lies about who we are and what we stand for. Fuck 'em.

The whole site is icky, from the pretense of keeping things "clean and wholesome" (um, your sexual urges don't have to be filthy unless you feel the need to see them that way) to the Debbie blog.

But I think the ugliest, most depressing and demeaning part of the whole thing is the crotchless pantaloons. They're crotchless... and they're pantaloons.

I'm off to curl up in a ball now. I don't think I ever want to have sex again.

I think Roni hit the nail on the head. Of course, BDSM can go wrong and people can become abusive if they don't play by the rules, but the main difference I see between CDD and BDSM is that the latter is considered erotic role playing and the former a 24/7 lifestyle. Of course, I know there are couples who live the master/slave fantasy 24/7, but they're quite the exception as far as I could see. Most of the time, you have people living a fairly balanced relationship and then taking part in occasional (or frequent) BDSM roleplaying. I think there's a HUGE difference between a playful "Oooooh, I think you've been a naughty girl, you need to be punished" (or "Oooooh, I think you've been a naughty boy, you need to be punished") and a dead-earnest "I'm here to teach you right from wrong, now drop your pants", without any safe word obviously. Now of course, most men who take part in CDD (and some women too, it seems) are turned on by it, but they make it a general life rule instead of an erotic game. And, most importantly, as others have already pointed out upthread, the CDD enthusiasts don't seem too preoccupied with women's consent. So, as tolerant as I am regarding kink as a whole and BDSM in particular, I can't just shrug my shoulders and go "oh, to each their own".

Basically, BDSM is about "pretending" you're master and slave, CDD is about "believing" you're master and slave. Pretty big difference.

A good test for whether consent is valid is to look at the consequences of non-consent and what it would cost (financially, socially and in terms of personal safety) to walk away from the person seeking consent. The site apparently admits that non-consent will be met with further efforts at coercion, so it flunks that prong. Second, if these women are in marriages that are 'traditional' in other ways, they probably have little access to money or a support network. Make no mistake that this site hates feminists so much because we are the escape pod from this marital death star. They have to discredit us just like the defenders of slavery had to discredit both the slaves themselves and the abolitionists as dangers to the social order who contradicted the Bible's teachings. Last time I read the New Testament, BTW, don't remember Jesus spanking anyone, and also remember him stopping people from the physical punishment of others for their sins. Why don't these guys just get to it and nail their wives to crosses when they step out of line?

I'm really thinking that the women's blogs are actually written by men just desperate to convince ANYBODY that this sort of thing is ok.

Did anybody catch how "Debbie" mentioned how vulnerable and anxious being forced to remove her pants, spread her legs, and prop herself up on the bed made her feel? The actual hitting stuff was terrible, but that line totally turned my stomach. Anyone thinking that there isn't a sick twist of sexual repression running through these men is crazy.

"One more thing and then I'm going to bed: I call dibs on making up a t-shirt that says, "I've Been Bad For Jesus." OR, "Have You Been Bad For Jesus."
:)"

WWJS?

Who Would Jesus Spank?

I'm really thinking that the women's blogs are actually written by men just desperate to convince ANYBODY that this sort of thing is ok.

I had that same thought soymilk, especially reading "Leah's" corner. Though I can't prove it I have my suspicions. Though they are going to great lengths with the other blogs to make us believe these are real women if they're not.

10,000 points to bcm90 for the star wars reference...

as a former christian...i have to say this shit is fucked up...in all my time w/ the church i never met anyone who believed this stuff was ok...or ever heard "spanking your wife" preached...doesn't mean it didn't happen ya know...but wow...creepy...

that being said...

part of the reason i LEFT the church was for the way i started to feel about being a woman. i was expected to find a husband to "take care of me" (why couldn't i take care of myself?). i tried to volunteer for things, and was turned away from everything but working in the nursery during church, b/c a woman's place was to be quiet. at the time, i didn't believe i would ever want kids...and didn't feel very nurturing...(yeah, sure, i changed my mind later...but what if i didn't?)...then i remember the horrible guilt i felt when i had sex for the first time well into college...i LOVED it and wondered why i waited so long...but at the same time felt ashamed of myself for enjoying such a sinful act! i was so confused! (that left to a LOT of self loathing and issues i won't discuss here...) but the nail on the head for me was how the church turned against me when i found out i was pregnant. sure, i could have had an abortion and never told anyone...but i thought they would be supportive that i chose to keep my child (right for me, not everyone)...boy was i wrong. i was outcast! apparently my swollen belly was more sinful and disgusting than the man who i would see in the restaurant/bar i worked at who was an alcoholic, or the deacon i knew was cheating on his wife...but those men could get away w/ their sins...
my point...cuz this was off topic...
the ideology of the christian church puts so much emphasis on gender roles...and seems to believe that women were an afterthought...that we are somehow not as good...that we are meant to serve and nurture and be quiet and take what we are dealt. that we should repent to the men in our lives...that it is their job to teach us how to think and act...
it makes me sick...and sad for the good friends i had who still follow that line of thought...
but in regards to this...consent or no...i maintain it is wrong, even if a wife does "consent". if someone doesn't realize it is abuse...it IS still abuse...
i feel so sorry for them...
and angry that they think we are so evil...

Roni said:
CDD removes all the safeguards that separates BDSM from actual abuse… There IS plenty of space devoted to pressuring a woman into consent…
Thank you so much for pointing that out! This really helps me reconcile my conflicted response.

SarahMC said (Re: hating these folks):
Because, Peepers, of the hate they spew re: feminists. Male anti-feminists are bad, but I reserve special resentment for women who hate women. They talk a lot of shit about [feminists] and spread lies about who we are and what we stand for. Fuck 'em.
Oh, I totally get it now. I get excruciatingly frustrated about that crap, too.

I just wish the female misogynists would wear something identifying, because no matter how many times I’ve encountered them, I’m always taken by surprise to find out I’m dealing with one.

Fucking’s too good for ‘em ;)

I was just about to recommend Greta Christina's link, but then she linked it herself.

Ouyangden,
I know where you're coming from. Not about the whole pregnancy thing, but about Christianity in general.
When I first started having sex I'd repent right afterwards. I felt enormous guilt. Luckily I eventually saw through it all and abandoned that belief system alltogether.

the ideology of the christian church puts so much emphasis on gender roles...and seems to believe that women were an afterthought

Yes. I truly believe that the way society views men and women is