I absolutely loathe Mo'nique.
My first bout with anorexia was diagnosed when I was 16--I was 5'6" & 85 lbs. The anorexia was mostly depression induced--when I get depressed I just lose all appetite and drop weight really fast. I had the misfortune of hearing her stand-up routing, where she talked about how all skinny women are bitches and how you can never be friends with a skinny woman.
That really pissed me off. I'm now 172 lbs & dealing with a relapse in anorexia/bulimia in a desparate bid to lose weight again. I know how cruel the world can be to anyone who's even slightly overweight. But the way to gain body acceptance is not to fight hate with hate.
So until Mo'nique sees the light, I'm going to listen to comedians I can relate to, like Margaret Cho & Janeane Garafolo.

Don't forget this one - Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary has ousted its female faculty members and started offering a Bachelor's degree in homemaking for its female students in order to preserve "biblical family and gender roles."

Re: "U.S. women losing girth control"

I think this trend is a backlash to the fact that the 'ideal' woman has dropped weight nearly every year. This is great for the cosmetics and dieting industries: an unattainable standard makes for permanent consumers, but it's also caused some women to be discouraged and give up.

Men have adjusted their standard of beauty to what is obtainable because, guess what, they weren't that picky to begin with.

I say bring it on, I've never met a woman who thought she was thin enough (this is including size ones and 0's) and that freaking scares me.

Re: Midwifery.

Does anyone know more about what the phrase "current ministerial or tocological certification" means? How stringent are the certifications to become a midwife, and how much supervision goes on?

Frankly, I'm not sure I'd let anyone with less than an RN give me medical advice/care without some supervision from a doctor.

Re: "Girth Control" and Mo'nique

Does anyone else think it's a really bad idea to frame this debate in terms of "fat vs. thin"? I mean, yes, there is a big problem with body image in this country, but there's also a big problem with actual body health. I get really uncomfortable with "fat and proud" rhetoric, because on the surface (and, lets face it, the surface is all we're going to see from people like Mo'nique) it's encouraging a very unhealthy lifestyle for the sake of feeling good about yourself.

Now, I'm all for self-esteem and not basing it on your appearance, but let's consider something: how many of you are horrified by pro-anorexia and pro-bulemia rhetoric? Why is this different? Why shouldn't we encourage women (hey, people in general!) to lay off the super-sizing and the sugar and the fats and get up and move around a little? If Mo'nique can look me in the eye and say "I eat foods that are good for me in healthy portions, I exercise regularly and well, and I'm still this size," then I'll be okay with her "fat and proud" schtick. Conversely, if she can't say that, I'd ask her to shut the hell up and stop telling women that it's okay to severely risk their health just to stick it to society. To me that's just as anti-woman as the modeling industry.

It shouldn't be about fat or thin or image or getting a date. It should be about your health, bottom line.

Maggie,

Mo'Nique has said that she exercises, I believe she did an interview in Essence magazine either last year or 2005 about that. And I also remember a radio interview with her when I was home in Missouri, done in Memphis, where she also talked about this. That's her weight and she's not going to kill herself to be skinner.

As for her "skinny women are evil" that's her stchick. I honestly don't think she "hates" skinny women but she started that stand up against the belief that all women should be skinny and fat women are evil and non sexual.

But as far as the girth issue:

The fact that even the desired weight of women has increased suggests there is less social pressure to lose weight," the study said. It was published in Economic Inquiry, an academic journal.

I. Call. Bullshit. And besides that, they study seems focused on making women feel ashamed when obesity is becoming a problem for Americans overall (and even that's debatable).

"The fact that even the desired weight of women has increased suggests there is less social pressure to lose weight"

since when? am i the only person who has seen nothing that remotely resembles 'less social pressure to lose weight'?

I'm a little torn on the weight issue.

I don't think "guilt" or "blame" should be placed on women for an 'obesity' issue (if there is one) without bringing in the men as well who eat just as much supersized fast food.

I think that people should never be discriminated for how they look or how much they weigh and its nice that there seems to be a trend going away from that, even slightly.

I do think that there is a major obesity problem in America. I'm not a PHD but I've worked at Disneyland and was able to observe 50 thousand some people a day from all over the country (and elsewhere) and have seen evidence first hand of a frighteningly unhealthy country.

I'm not going to judge people as individuals but the majority of people that I saw would be considered at least obese.

I don't care if people want to live that way, or are comfortable with themselves (in fact, I hope they ARE comfortable with themselves!) but there ARE health issues with being severely overweight.

If someone and their doctor are comfortable with their weight, I don't care what they look like, I want to clarify that.

However, if people aren't seeing a doctor and are eating really unhealthy foods to the point where they are probably at serious risk, it shouldn't be 'ok'. Not because they look one way or another, but I don't think we should be encouraging unhealthy (as described by their doctor) weight any more than we should encourage smoking.

A running debate on this blog is whether all of the obesity-related health risks can be attributed to food choice and lack of exercise. I don't know any studies off-hand that control for those variables.

I do know, however, that in controlled studies where rats are given greater quantities of food and become obese, the obese rats develop higher rates of cancer, health problems, etc.

The association of obesity to chronic illness is stronger than almost any other risk factor, including smoking, drinking, aging 20 years, etc:
http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB4549/index1.html

Obviously some conditions are exacerbated simply because of obesity itself (e.g., arthritis, lupus, and other connective tissue diseases).

What we don't know is whether the health risks of dieting are greater than the risks of obesity.

I'm all for promoting acceptance of wider ranges of body size and ending stigma against overweight. But that doesn't mean that one should downplay the potential health risks of being at the extreme ends of the weight continuum (obesity/anorexia).

As for her "skinny women are evil" that's her stchick. I honestly don't think she "hates" skinny women but she started that stand up against the belief that all women should be skinny and fat women are evil and non sexual.
Ultramagnus, I don't care if that's her schtick, it's wrong. If a skinny person made a career being hateful to fat people, they'd be crucified in the liberal blogosphere so fast (Unless, of course, it's an aging black comedian with a crap career putting on a fat suit--then they get a movie.) Margaret Cho deals with weight in a much more effective way than Mo'nique.
If she wants to portray larger women as sexual, then she should just do that instead of picking on people that may have their own problems.

Well, to be fair, the Missouri thing only affects lay midwives, right?

"Missouri law does not allow midwives who do not have nursing or medical degrees to deliver babies."

Lay midwives do not necessarily have any medical training whatsoever, so I'm not sure that lay midwives are really the boon to women's health that people might want to make them out to be.

"As for her 'skinny women are evil' that's her stchick. I honestly don't think she 'hates' skinny women but she started that stand up against the belief that all women should be skinny and fat women are evil and non sexual."

Hmm.

Tanning beds and baking in the sun are also bad for one's health, but is "dark-skinned women are evil" schtick reasonable support for pale women and girls who feel pressured to get darker?

"I'm not going to judge people as individuals but the majority of people that I saw would be considered at least obese."

Lemme guess, your native language uses the same word for "overweight" and "obese" instead of having a specific word for obesity, right?

My mom's native language does too, and she uses that as an excuse to call me "obese" in English even though I'm only about 15 pounds overweight and she's lived in Anglophone settings for more than half her life.

"Well, to be fair, the Missouri thing only affects lay midwives, right?

"'Missouri law does not allow midwives who do not have nursing or medical degrees to deliver babies.'"

Good point. Can someone be a nurse and a midwife at the same time, or is the definition of midwife narrower than that?

"Currently, more than a third of women over 20 are obese. But self-image is changing, too. In 1994, the average women weighed 147 but wished she weighed 132. By 2002, the researchers found, she tipped the scales at 153 but longed to be 135.

'The fact that even the desired weight of women has increased suggests there is less social pressure to lose weight,' the study said. It was published in Economic Inquiry, an academic journal. "

What the fuck? It's a THREE POUND difference.
Also, I'm assuming that all this emphasis on women and weight means that men haven't gained any weight at all either, right? Right?

Oh no! Fat people are being accepted in some circles and learning to love their bodies? Outrageous! I say let's go back to shunning them and treating them like sub-humans... And I for one have noticed that none of my female friends EVER talk about wanting to lose weight or being unhappy with their appearance anymore, men never make disparaging comments about women's size, and there are SO many more bigger women in the media to make it "acceptable" for us not to be size 4. Gotta love those "shifting beauty ideals" (???????)

Couldn't agree more Maggie about the emphasis needing to be on health not weight. One of my best friends is amazonian - but she's incredibly fit, strong and fucking sexy to boot... If you go by the whole weight criteria, I'd be so much "healthier" than her, and that's blatantly not the case (unfortunately).

"What the fuck? It's a THREE POUND difference."

I heard that it's normal for an adult's weight to vary within 4 pounds or so within a day, so when you weight yourself you should think "plus or minus 4 pounds" after the number you get.

I just found another interesting article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/02/AR2007080201466.html

"Lebanon Cleric Bans Honor Killings

"By HUSSEIN DAKROUB
The Associated Press
Thursday, August 2, 2007; 4:14 PM

"BEIRUT, Lebanon -- Lebanon's most senior Shiite Muslim cleric issued a religious edict Thursday banning honor killings, calling the custom of murdering a female relative for sexual misconduct 'a repulsive act.'

"The fatwa by Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah was a rare condemnation of the practice by a prominent cleric. Fadlallah's office said he issued the statement in response to reports that honor killings were increasing..."

Re: the clinical training of midwives - a person can be a certified nurse midwife, which requires an advanced nursing degree (the one at the health system where i work has an MSN - masters of science in nursing). i think that often midwives who have been trained within the traditional medical system, however, deliver babies at hospitals. not really aware of any numbers to back this up though...

"Can someone be a nurse and a midwife at the same time, or is the definition of midwife narrower than that?"

Yes. A Certified Nurse Midwife has a nursing degree and then further extensive obstetrical training. They usually work with a doctor, although sometimes they work alone or with other CNMs. They're quite nifty.

re: midwifery

The legislature in Missouri had consistently voted down legislation designed to allow DEM (direct entry midwives) to do deliveries in homes.

However, a pro-homebirth legislator slipped it in as an addendum to the health insurance bill. He used "tocological" to ensure that it wouldn't be easily recognized as pertaining to midwifery. The word isn't in common usage and in fact the legislator himself had to learn it from someone else; he could be pretty sure nobody would catch it.

See: http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/stlog/2007/05/mo_midwifery_bill_lives_thanks.php
Note, also, the cagey use of the press to try to fool his opponents.

In other worse, this wasn't a typical "negotiated addendum." He deliberately tried to pull a fast one--and succeeded.

Obviously, this didn't make him any friends. The Legislature was so pissed of that they pulled him off of at least one powerful committee. Can't say I blame them.

Anyway, that history is quite relevant in terms of the judge's view of "intent." We KNOW the legislature didn't intend to license direct entry home births, because it has repeatedly considered the issue and rejected it.

So until Mo'nique sees the light, I'm going to listen to comedians I can relate to, like Margaret Cho & Janeane Garafolo.
You know Moxie, I haven't heard her say that for a long time. I don't think she does it anymore.

The whole fat-shaming as health promotion thing smacks of bullshit to me. And even if the concerns were totally sincere, it's ineffective as a motivator for women to lose weight and "get healthy". I've spent most of my life as a big girl/woman and the shameful overtones that were hugely evident in every comment I got about "improving my health" through weight loss did NOTHING to help me to adopt healthier eating/exercising habits. They just embarrassed me and made me feel shittier.

You know Moxie, I haven't heard her say that for a long time. I don't think she does it anymore.
I hope she doesn't. Maybe she's learned not all of us can control our weights--some people overeat and some people can't eat. I know when I get depressed that I can't keep anything down when I try to eat. Also, that skinny people have feelings too and she shouldn't try to hurt other people. she should be trying to work with other people so that a wide variety of sizes may be accepted.

I hear you Corey. So many prejudiced people use supposed "concern" for big women as a justification for insulting, patronising and demeaning them. And because of the recent obsession with "the obesity epidemic", this trend has become worryingly prevalent, with every (usually unqualified) person putting their two-cents in on why being fat is so gross and unhealthy.

And anytime someone tries to criticise their superficial BS, they get all self-righteous and say, "so you're condoning women getting fat and becoming really unhealthy", and even worse: "it's costing the health system billions", as if they have legitimate and altruistic reasons for running down someone else's self esteem and making deeply hurtful personal remarks. It's so disingenuous. At least the "no fat chicks" brigade aren't pretending to give a damn about the people they're insulting.

The unwarranted hostility towards larger people shocks me sometimes - and the media condones it by pumping out this ignorant garbage under the guise of covering a "health issue". It's not about health, it's about perpetuating negative stereotypes about fat people, and trying to keep them feeling ashamed and spending money on cosmetic surgery, diet fads and shonky exercise equipment. There's a whole industry that profits to the tune of billions off people's body issues, and I honestly don't know how these people sleep at night. God forbid a woman should feel happy with her appearance, especially a FAT woman. Ugh.

And Moxie, I agree that all women should be accepted for who they are, but skinny women (even if they wish to put on weight) are NOT discriminated against to the same degree that fat people are - it's like arguing that black comedians can't make stereotypical jokes about white people because some might get offended. Well, they might, but seeing as they're the dominant group in society and haven't been the subject of discrimination, I don't think it has anywhere near the same impact. You may be (understandably) sensitive to this issue, but her stand-up is turning the tables in an irreverant way - I don't think she's trying to spread "hate" - just trying to expose how ridiculous it is to generalise about people based on their weight.

Frankly, I'm not sure I'd let anyone with less than an RN give me medical advice/care without some supervision from a doctor.

Lay midwives do not necessarily have any medical training whatsoever, so I'm not sure that lay midwives are really the boon to women's health that people might want to make them out to be.

Comments like this worry me. If that law in missouri would have gone through it would have been a HUGE step for women's health. It shouldn't be illegal for a woman to give birth away from the violent, degrading, oppressive, and anti-woman environment of U.S. hospital births. I highly recommend Immaculate Deception written by Suzanne Arms (1977) and Pushed by Jennifer Block that came out this year. They're both amazing.

Here's another article:

http://www.boston.com/news/odd/articles/2007/08/12/title_of_choice_urged_for_transsexuals/

"Title of choice urged for transsexuals

"August 12, 2007

"BANGKOK, Thailand --Mr., Mrs. or Ms.? Thailand may soon let people who have had a sex change officially alter their title, too.

"A proposal which would allow transgender men or women to choose how they are addressed is being considered by the country's National Legislative Assembly to support an anti-discrimination provision in the draft constitution, Thai newspapers reported..."

"How stringent are the certifications to become a midwife, and how much supervision goes on?"

A good friend of mine was going for a midwife certification, I think that it was through the Professional Midwives Association or something like that. I know that she is not a nurse, nor does she want to be one. She attended many weekend classes on midwifery, subjects ranging from how to do an internal check to relaxation techniques to use during labor. To be certified, she also had to work as a midwife's apprentice and attend a certain number of births with an already certified midwife.

"Frankly, I'm not sure I'd let anyone with less than an RN give me medical advice/care without some supervision from a doctor."

I have had two children. The first was born in a hospital and was horrible. I felt totally out of control and helpless. When I found out that I was pregnant with my second son, I told my husband that I refused to give birth in a hospital ever again. We found two very competent midwives (they worked as a team) and I had a very wonderful "woman centered" pregnancy and birth. They handled every situation thrown at them with competency and grace, even when I was screaming in tongues! My son was ten pounds and had his arm over his head, a doctor would have ran for his scalpel and told me that I "had to have a c section" or that I "couldn't give birth naturally". My son was born healthy and no worse for the wear, except for a floppy ear from having his arm pushing against it, it corrected itself within a few months. I healed much faster and was up and entertaining visitors the next day, which got me a stern talking to from my midwife when she came to do my home visit.

Personally, I don't view birth as an illness or medical condition, unless of course, there is a medical condition associated with that birth. Doctors have their place, for high risk pregnancies and births, but I will take a midwife over a doctor anyday.

Hi! I'm somewhat involved with the lobby group for the midwifery bill in Illinois, and I think some people are a bit confused as to what midwives offer.

First of all, pregnancy is not an illness. The vast majority of pregnancies are normal and healthy, and most women just need a bit of reassurance and someone to help position the shoulders in order to birth. It is perfectly possible for women to birth by themselves, though I personally don't feel comfortable with that.

Midwives are trained to help women have gentle, natural births. Additionally, they're trained to recognize when something is going wrong; in that situation the woman goes to the hospital.

My midwife went to one of the best midwifery colleges in this country. She is exceptionally skilled and I have full confidence in her. She would be licensed if she lived in just about any other state besides Illinois.

Doctors oppose homebirth not because it's dangerous (studies show that it's safer for normal, healthy pregnancies), but because it cuts into their paycheck. Most hospitals make a ton of money off of the labor ward, and homebirthers threaten that. I could go on and on about this topic, but I'll stop here.

"Most hospitals make a ton of money off of the labor ward, and homebirthers threaten that."

Heck, anyone who helps people avoid risky childbirth threatens hospital profits. No matter if this person is a skilled midwife, a doctor who washes her or his hands between patients, a pharmacist who promptly fills birth control prescriptions, a parent who doesn't pressure her or his daughters to give birth ASAP, etc.

Count me in as a supporter of midwives. If I have children, I want to do it in my own house with a midwife (assuming I have a low-risk pregnancy).

I started thinking about having a homebirth a few years ago when I saw this website, which features a lot of pictures of what homebirth is like (and I thought it was pretty inspiring).

Another interesting article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6943113.stm

"Award for anti-mutilation charity
By David Bamford
BBC News Africa analyst

"An West African aid group campaigning to abolish female genital mutilation has been awarded the world's biggest prize for humanitarian work.

"The Tostan organisation, based in Senegal, has been chosen for the Hilton Prize, worth $1.5m (£740,000)

"The organisation uses traditional song, poetry, theatre and dance to educate people in West African villages about the dangers of genital mutilation..."

Pregnancy certainly isn't an illness. But neither is competitive skateboarding. They're probably equally risky, even if that risk is low for any given individual. Either way, it's nice to have the appropriate medical backup available in the small chance that something does go wrong.

Many of the certified nurse midwife programs I've seen will do home births and facilitate a pleasant, mom-centered experience. But they typically also have access to medical backup, and proper expertise to evaluate when that backup may be necessary.

That isn't necessarily true of a lay midwife. The CNMs offer the best of all possible worlds.

Corey and Ledlight: Thank you! I'm so sick of hearing the "health" rhetoric. For everyone interested in the subject, I highly recommend reading Fat Politics by J. Eric Oliver. He approaches the "obesity epidemic" in a very refreshing way.

And Moxie, I agree that all women should be accepted for who they are, but skinny women (even if they wish to put on weight) are NOT discriminated against to the same degree that fat people are - it's like arguing that black comedians can't make stereotypical jokes about white people because some might get offended. Well, they might, but seeing as they're the dominant group in society and haven't been the subject of discrimination, I don't think it has anywhere near the same impact. You may be (understandably) sensitive to this issue, but her stand-up is turning the tables in an irreverant way - I don't think she's trying to spread "hate" - just trying to expose how ridiculous it is to generalise about people based on their weight.
I don't pretend that skinny women are discriinated against or hated to the same degree as larger women. The problem i have, is that at a time when we should be building coalitions to fight the really fucked up beauty standards, Mo'nique's attitude is really alienating and frustrating. It's like, "Ok, you think I'm just a bitch when I'm skinny, so why should I help you?"
Or, if she said that all white women were bitches, I think we could agree how messed up that is. It wouldn't be as bad as a white woman saying all black women are bitches, b/c of the power differential, but it would still be really offensive. But for some reason, it's ok when it's skinny people.

"Now, I'm all for self-esteem and not basing it on your appearance, but let's consider something: how many of you are horrified by pro-anorexia and pro-bulemia rhetoric? Why is this different?" This equation of anorexia/bulimia with obesity - both dangers to health - I see quite often in these debates, but I think it's disingenuous. They're different because anorexia and bulimia are mental disorders which involve a desire to lose weight. Being overweight is not a mental disorder involving a desire to gain weight. There may be a substantial online community encouraging its already overweight members to eat more, endangering their health (and life) in the process, but I haven't come across it. Articles like the Washington Times one linked here do occasionally try and suggest that the rise in obesity is because of changing ideals of women, but I'd be extremely surprised to find any woman saying she's eating twice her recommended daily intake of fat because she wants to look like some ideal woman.

It would be nice if the constant worry over obesity levels was down to looking after people's health. But I have to agree with those who wonder where the obese men have got to in so many of these news stories... how come nobody cares about *their* health?

Mo'Nique-

I don't think she's funny but that's me. The real issue I have is the whole "Real Women Have Curves" and plus size clothing with ads that say "Real Clothing for Real Women" etc.

Are women who exercise and watch what they eat fake? Are healthy, active women FAKE? What about women who are naturally very thin? She might be more woman but she is not more OF a woman.

I carry a few extra pounds. I would like to see someone over 115 in a commercial that ISN'T for a weight-loss pill. All I am saying is that basing femininity or value specifically on size, no matter what size, is messed up and implying thin or healthy people any less of a woman is just as offensive as saying that if you are overweight (or obese, as Mo'Nique) that you are not a woman.

"Are women who exercise and watch what they eat fake? Are healthy, active women FAKE? What about women who are naturally very thin?"

For that matter, what about women who are starving? Even some women with genetic tendencies to store extra fat are very skinny because they can't afford to eat enough fat in the first place.

Hmm.

Could this be another example of privilege a la taking something for granted?

She attended many weekend classes on midwifery, subjects ranging from how to do an internal check to relaxation techniques to use during labor.

Call me crazy, but if I were to give birth I'd want someone with considerably more training than "many weekend classes." I'm a supporter of home births, but I see no problem in a state wanting to make sure that midwives are sufficiently licensed.

Nausicaa, the problem you have in Illinois is that the state refuses to license midwives. Birthing women are forced to go to the hospital or have an illegal, unlicensed midwife. We do have CNMs, but they work directly under OB's, and there is not one single OB who will allow homebirths south of I-80 (anywhere outside of Chicago).

If midwifery were legal, the midwives would have OBs they could work with to ensure better continuity of care in the event of a transfer. And like I said, were this any other state, the midwives would be licensed. Heck, one of the ones in this town is an RN and a lay midwife.

It's a really upsetting situation. Birthing doesn't scare me; PPD and episiotomies do. Fighting doctors do (I already don't trust them). I STRONGLY suspect that were I to birth in a hospital and have to fight off doctors during my entire labor, have people do things to my vagina without my permission (like shove things up it and cut it open) I'd get yet another bout of PTSD.

Why, I have to ask, are Doctors allowed to violate and mutilate vaginas without their owners permission and aren't charged with rape? I've read stores of docs shoving their whole arm up there, coming towards the vagina with scissors after the woman repeatedly said no episiotomy, vacuum extraction, constant cervical checks, screwing a metal sensor onto the fetus' scalp, etc. Hospital birth, frankly, sounds a lot like really elaborate sexual assault, and as a rape survivor I'm pretty damn sure I can't handle that.

Did you miss this part of what I said:

"To be certified, she also had to work as a midwife's apprentice and attend a certain number of births with an already certified midwife."

If I remember correctly, her apprenticeship was at least two years working with a midwife who had been in practice for over twenty. It wasn't some fly by night certificate.

"Why, I have to ask, are Doctors allowed to violate and mutilate vaginas without their owners permission and aren't charged with rape?"

I thought that was closer to FGM than to having sex with someone against her will - horrible, and in another category of horror instead of the rape category.

"I've read stores of docs shoving their whole arm up there,"

I once read a story of a midwife sticking her hand in the woman's vagina without washing her hands or even taking the rings off her fingers. Every profession seems to have its share of assholes.

That's one of the reasons it's so important for pregnant women and girls to have choices - including hospital and clinic birth, assisted homebirth, unassisted homebirth, abortion instead of giving birth, etc.

"Hospital birth, frankly, sounds a lot like really elaborate sexual assault, and as a rape survivor I'm pretty damn sure I can't handle that."

It was for me. I am a rape survivor and had a really hard time coping after the birth of my first son. People were touching me without my permission, shoving things in my, without my permission, sometimes without warning. I had a nurse rubbing my stomach, when I yelled at her to stop, it was extremely uncomfortable, she said that it would help get the baby out, ok, then why did I have to push so much if you can just rub it out? I was told what noises I could or couldn't make, really. After my son was born I had to wait about fifteen minutes to even hold him, they insisted on cleaning him off and dressing him first, shit, I wanted to see HIM.

With my second son, it was completely different. My midwife ASKED if I wanted her to check my cervix, she ASKED if I might be more comfortable in another position. In the hospital, I was told when to push, at home my midwife told me to push when I felt like it was necessary. In the hospital they cut my perinium (SP?), at home, it was massaged with oil to encourage it to stretch.

A bit TMI? The bottom line is that women need to be able to birth with whomever and wherever they are most comfortable. If that is with a doctor in a hospital, then so be it. If it is at home with whatever type of midwife the birthing woman wants, then so be it. We are grown women who can make our own decisions about what is good for us and our babies, even if that means birthing alone, which some of my friends have done, not for me, but eh, more power to 'em.

"People were touching me without my permission, shoving things in my, without my permission, sometimes without warning."

What assholes! And idiots! They took bad care of you and put themselves at risk too.

I mean, when I tried to have my first pap smear the doctor noticed I was nervous. Then she refused to continue. She said she was scared that I'd kick her into the wall given how twitchy I already was.

See, that's smart. She remembered the rest of the patient (including my feet), and remembered her own body's limits, instead of narrowly focusing on the procedure. I bet that if she was an obstetrician she wouldn't dare piss off a patient in labor...

"What assholes! And idiots! They took bad care of you and put themselves at risk too."

Yes, they did, I should have kicked them! I was just too scared and out of control, it was bad. I have a hard time watching my birth video because you can hear me pleading with them to stop touching me and to get her hands out of me.

The reasons for not permitting home births are essentially that it is more likely to result in neonatal fatalities. It's very difficult to get people to sign off on additional risks of death in a manner that protects the physician. And a lot of physicians don't want to be involved with what they consider substandard (not as safe as the optimum) care.

The other issue is one of choice. Personally, I have no particular problem with women choosing a risky birth, even if it results in a neonatal death--I don't see how any other stance would be compatible with full abortion rights.

I do, however, have a big problem with misinformation. Birth is complex; managing birth is complex; understanding the statistics involved is even more complex. And contrary to what some folks claim, you NEED to understand the larger picture to distinguish between good practice and bad practice.

DEMs in particular are notorious for understating the medical risks involved in out of hospital birth. Generally speaking, they simply lack the right training. As a result, generally speaking they are less likely to provide women with the data necessary to make an ACCURATE decision.

I'm all for choice. Choice is good; it's empowering; it's a great goal. Uninformed or poorly informed choice, however, isn't empowering at all. It's not even really a choice.

"The reasons for not permitting home births are essentially that it is more likely to result in neonatal fatalities. It's very difficult to get people to sign off on additional risks of death in a manner that protects the physician. And a lot of physicians don't want to be involved with what they consider substandard (not as safe as the optimum) care."

Wait a minute. What physician?

I got the impression that "home birth" often means birth with no physician involved in the first place, instead of only applying when an obstetrician makes a house call.

As for permitting home births, how could they not be permitted? If someone goes into labor at home and isn't make it out the door before the birth is done, are the authorities gonna arrest her and send detectives to figure out whether or not she had the time to go elsewhere? o_O

"I do, however, have a big problem with misinformation. Birth is complex; managing birth is complex; understanding the statistics involved is even more complex. And contrary to what some folks claim, you NEED to understand the larger picture to distinguish between good practice and bad practice."

Good point there. Sure, giving birth in a hospital is unnatural. So is having 100% of your newborns reach adulthood. Just check out any other species...

"Yes, they did, I should have kicked them!"

Except for maybe that stomach-rubbing jerk? From your description, she seemed more in punchable range.

"I was just too scared and out of control, it was bad. I have a hard time watching my birth video because you can hear me pleading with them to stop touching me and to get her hands out of me."

Video? Ah, so you have evidence of the malpractice. Did you get a chance to use it?

"home birth" rarely involves a physician, as OBs generally won't do them. They CAN do them but won't (crucial difference.) But it really only refers to location outside a hospital's immediate access range.

Home birth as the term is generally used does NOT refer to what is possibly the best option: attached birthing centers. These are units which are literally attached to a hospital but provide a drug free, low pressure, relaxed atmosphere. Unlike a home birth, they have near-instant, no-ambulance-required, access to the attending hospital if needed.

By "permitting" home birth, what I really mean is licensing a class of individuals who are legally permitted (and theoretically qualified) to supervise a home birth.

Obviously any women can do what they want to do; it's the attendant who gets licensed.

RE: Fat Activism and Mo'nique

I don't agree with her statement about men donning fat suits. I find that offensive as an overweight woman.

However, I love that she isn completely un-shy about being a big girl. We need more people like her in the media. Being fat due to reasons that extend beyond needing to put down my fork, I like seeing things out there that give me a sense of fat camaraderie.

And if Lane Bryant's slogan offends you, boo hoo. I put up with being called "Grand Canyon" on the school bus for years, so I can have one motherfucking slogan.

Sassygirl-

I am sorry your first birth wasn't how you wanted it. That's really wrong of them.

Maybe it is routine for them to do certain things, but you are supposed to let people know and ask permission before touching them. Birth is anything but "routine" for most women. We don't do it every day! It is a very private, special, and vulnerable time and I can understand why someone wouldn't speak up about things even when they feel violated. It's really wrong for them to do that to you. I am glad the 2nd birth was better.

Kids are not in my near future at all but stuff like this scares me. How DARE they touch you w/o permission? Women don't lose their rights to privacy and dignity when they are in labour!

Re: Midwifery

My Dad was born at home, delivered by his father so I rather like the idea of home births.

My question (and one I've had for years) is if you birth at home, how does your baby get a birth certificate?

I apologize if that's a stupid question.

"Video? Ah, so you have evidence of the malpractice. Did you get a chance to use it?"

Unfortunately, what happened to me was pretty much routine and I would probably be made to look like some hysterical woman if I did anything about it. The funny thing is, my step dad is an attorney and he was there with me in the delivery room. The CNM (yes, a CNM) knew that he was a lawyer and would not let my mother video tape the baby monitor and made her turn it off when he was coming out, my step dad said that they were probably afraid of evidence.

"I am sorry your first birth wasn't how you wanted it. That's really wrong of them."

Thank you. I have made peace with it, somewhat. My second birth was quite a different experience, my midwife and her attendants were so nurturing and focused on me and my feelings, it kind of made up for it.

"My question (and one I've had for years) is if you birth at home, how does your baby get a birth certificate?"

Not a stupid question at all, it was one of mine when researching homebirth. My midwives brought the application with them, they filled it out and mailed it in. As simple as it is when done in a hospital. I am not sure about how it is done when a woman has an unassisted birth, as I didn't have one.