I don't have kids, but I do live in Las Vegas, which seems to be the epicenter of billboard protest. (Lots of ads for escort services, strip clubs, or even regular clubs that feature very scantily clad women and girl-on-girl scenarios).

I think it's important that we do make the distinction between billboards objectifying and sexualizing women and billboards that objectify, sexualize, and demonstrate extreme violence towards women.

While one bothers me, I don't feel that I necessarily have the right to tell the company not to show that image - but I do feel I have the right with these posters. Why?

Perhaps because it's easier to explain and understand why ads use sex rather than why ads use violence? How do you explain to a seven year old about rape and torture? (I have heard nothing about rape in the movie, but I feel like it 's fair to say that it will have some kind of a role in a movie.)

I'm curious to see what parents say to their children as well...

It's not just the sexism, but the violent sexism that gets to me. But after I stopped vomiting, maybe I would say, "Those ads are for a movie that is very violent. Because violence is wrong, when you make a violent movies it gets a lot of attention. Everyone knows that hurting someone like that is bad, which is why it's so upsetting. Your dad and I think it's wrong to make movies like that, so we don't go see them so the people who make them don't get our money." And then I might engage in a bit of guerilla grafitti-ing; if any billboard ever deserved spraypaint, those do. Maybe stickers with "Violence against women is wrong, and this poster is sick." to plaster on them, and give my child some also.

It isn't easy. You have to walk a line between being open and honest and protecting them from nightmares. You have to balance getting the right message across without overwhelming them. You have to pitch the discussion so that it is age appropriate.

Mostly I used these situations as an opportunity to open a dialog on respect, on how the media manipulates your thoughts or on sex. You can't enough opportunities to discuss sex with kids because they are exposed to so much incorrect and misleading information. I worked hard to paint a picture of honest, caring, respectful sex vs. predatory, disrespectful, gratuitous sex. But not until they were in Jr. High. When they were little kids I might say something like, "that poster is trying to put bad thoughts in your head - just ignore it". That might seem like white washing but little kids can only comprehend so much.

So that's not much of an answer but really, comments isn't a big enough forum to do that question justice. I will say that both of my girls read Feministing regularly and my son is a genuinely caring, nice guy so it pays to share your belief system with your kids early and often.

The sexism is horrifying, yes, and in a better world children shouldn't have to wonder why these things are plastered over huge billboards as advertising for "entertainment".

But I would be honest with the children. Yes, that woman is being tortured. No, it's not real, it's a movie. No, it isn't a good movie.

This can lead into a discussion of the actual issue at hand- cruelty towards women and how some lesser-evolved members of our society find it an acceptable form of entertainment- and put good morals in their head, rather than teaching them to lie (which children can detect easily by 6 or so) about unpleasant topics.

The sexism is horrifying, yes, and in a better world children shouldn't have to wonder why these things are plastered over huge billboards as advertising for "entertainment".

But I would be honest with the children. Yes, that woman is being tortured. No, it's not real, it's a movie. No, it isn't a good movie.

This can lead into a discussion of the actual issue at hand- cruelty towards women and how some lesser-evolved members of our society find it an acceptable form of entertainment- and put good morals in their head, rather than teaching them to lie (which children can detect easily by 6 or so) about unpleasant topics.

dare I say whorishly

UM...?

But yeah, I think gender-heavy cleaning product commercials are much worse.

Billboards are a nuisance, period, no matter what they say. That said, I highly doubt kids are going to retain any permanent damage from this campaign...I mean geez, I vividly remember the end of "The Possession of Joel Delaney" (as well as many other golden 70s-era films) when I was a young kid, and I turned out fine. :)

(Proposed answer to my preschooler):
"Son, that's a movie about someone beating up girls. Some people hate girls and want to beat them up, which is wrong."

Kids can only handle relatively simple concepts, but I don't see that we have so soften notions of good and evil just because they can't take in the complexity of the cultural messages.

I was with my god-daughter (13) and god-son (15) when we saw one of these ads. They were very upset and my god-daughter asked what the woman did wrong. I didn't know exactly what to say, but my god-son said in his generally angst/angry voice "She didn't do anything wrong. Nobody does something wrong to get treated like that." (Which isn't proper English, but made the point in any event.)

I was so proud of him I wanted to give him a hug...but I curbed the impulse.

BTW - My feelings about Tipper Gore changed dramatically when my son was a pre-teen and wanted to buy really groteque and misogynistic rap. I was really glad to have that parental warning sticker on the CD case to help me figure out what I did and didn't have to insist on listening to and discussing with him. I wonder what parents are doing today with downloadable music?

Captivity? More like Craptivity! Haha!

Anyway, I don't have kids, so maybe I can't empathize with parents whose children ask questions about stuff they might be to young to know about. But I never really understood why parents struggle to answer such questions. I like it when kids try to answer their own questions. I think I would have asked the kids what they thought the poster meant and probably whether they liked what they saw.

It's unfortunate that the torture of a pretty woman isn't as repulisve as the torture of any other kind of person. Isn't there a guy in that movie who gets tortured too? Where's he in all of these ads?

I think its great that they did revise the first poster, however the new one isn't any better. Did anyone see that movie Wolf Creek? That was a capture, torture, kill movie that I saw expecting your typical slasher film. It ended up having a particularly uncomfortable scene of a guy torturing a half naked woman in a garage surrounded by hung body parts of other women. The scene had an eliment of rape to it as well! shocking I thought. The scene was so bad I actually couldn't watch past it since the movie hadn't been on long and god knows what was going to happen next.

The thing is, when I was a kid watch horror movies behind my parents back, there was no eliment of rape. It was the evil man killing teenagers while they were camping, or invincible characters like Freddie. I can't remember seeing this terrifying psychology in any of those R rated movies I saw when I was a kid (late 80's early 90's)

If I, a 24 year old gal, feel uncomfortable watching something like this, what does that say exactly?

I must also say that I can't remember ever seeing a theatrical poster or billboard that made me feel confused or scared as a child. And I'm not that old. It seems like the last few years, the horror movies have been taking a real bad road. Cant they just tell some more ghost stories and leave the torture scenes out?

I just want to note that while the horrible, in-your-face, misogynistic violence is a new element, sexist ads and commercials have been around for as long as advertising itself. I think that it's very important for parents to break down what's happening in them, in an age-appropriate way, for their kids. My feminism was formed by my mother, and one of the things she did regularly was to sit with me while the television was on and explain the sexism in the commercials. It was often pretty basic stuff ("Look how the commercials for Star Wars figures only show boys playing with them! The people who make those ads think that only boys like Star Wars. But you like to play with Star Wars figures and you're not a boy." "Yeah, Mom! That's sexist.") but it was stuff I could handle and understand, and it made me suspicious of advertisements in a feminist way at a very young age.

As to kids answering their own questions--yes and no. Often kids are asking questions because they don't understand what's happening; they don't have the experience or cognitive tools to make sense of things, and they need a reliable, sympathetic adult to help provide those things. I think especially when what they're asking about is frightening and nightmarish, it behooves the adults in whose care they are to provide solid reassurance and answers.

21stCenturyMom, I may be wrong but I believe if kids are legally downloading music then places like the AppleStore have warnings on the music. When you buy an album or mp3 off the applestore, you get a little icon of the cover art that has the "explicit content" warning on it.

Parents who let their children illegally download music deserve what they get as far as I'm concerned.

My best friend's sister likes to take her son along when her boyfriend takes her to Hooters. Although the attire and atmosphere of Hooters is nothing that you wouldn't see on the street, I almost blew a fuse when this four year old boy looked at my chest, and said, "hooters". Later, when we asked him where he would like to go to eat, he requested "Hooters".

Despite Hooters being mostly a puff area for sexuality, I think there's something to be said about exposing children to that atmosphere. Obviously, they aren't old enough to take it the right way (as if there is a 'right way'), and it teaches boys at an unbelievable early age to treat women as objects.

How did I explain my bosom to the little boy when he pointed at them?

"Yes, sometimes people call them Hooters, but a girl's breasts are her business until she gives you permission. The girls at Hooters want you to look at their bodies, and that's why they work there, but not all girls are like that. If you were a grown-up boy, and you pointed at my chest like that, I would slap the shit out of you."

And he got the point, even at four years old.

My best friend's sister likes to take her son along when her boyfriend takes her to Hooters. Although the attire and atmosphere of Hooters is nothing that you wouldn't see on the street, I almost blew a fuse when this four year old boy looked at my chest, and said, "hooters". Later, when we asked him where he would like to go to eat, he requested "Hooters".

Despite Hooters being mostly a puff area for sexuality, I think there's something to be said about exposing children to that atmosphere. Obviously, they aren't old enough to take it the right way (as if there is a 'right way'), and it teaches boys at an unbelievable early age to treat women as objects.

How did I explain my bosom to the little boy when he pointed at them?

"Yes, sometimes people call them Hooters, but a girl's breasts are her business until she gives you permission. The girls at Hooters want you to look at their bodies, and that's why they work there, but not all girls are like that. If you were a grown-up boy, and you pointed at my chest like that, I would slap the shit out of you."

And he got the point, even at four years old.

I think it's more than just the pull between free speech and censorship. It's the pull between mother's young self and old self. The young me remembers opposing censorship of 2 Live Crew, and being outraged that a moralist was attempting to regulate music. And I remember how angry I was when the WB refused to air a controversial episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer in the wake of the Columbine tragedy. The young me rails against such exercises of censorship.

But my parent self has a different take on things. I have a problem with the Captivity promos, but also rap music. Yes the rap music I held sacred when faced with assault by Tipper Gore. I hate the idea of my boys being exposed to the mysogyny that is pervasive in hip hop.

For me it wasn't that I didn't want my son to listen to the music (or my daughters). It was that I didn't want them to listen to it without a filter - the filter I provided by discussing the lyrics and what they mean and what the implications are and how demeaning and/or violent they are.

As for downloading - the big problem is that many parents let their kids have computers in their bedrooms and they give them credit cards or they have gift certificates to iTunes. You can't provide feedback if you don't know what is going on. Same thing with respect to TV. If your kid goes into his or her bedroom, shuts the door and turns on the TV you have no opportunity to discuss sexist advertising.

Hmm. I guess times change, is all. When I was young, there was only one television in the house, and it was in the living room, and same with the computer and the stereo. So part of the issue seems to be the proliferation of consumer goods.

I find the subtext of this discussion (the "I don't wanna be like Tipper Gore but I don't want my children exposed" thing) telling. I understand that this is a difficult issue, and that parents might not like having to explain things like this to their children. I get that our society has quite a few offensive elements that can force parents to have uncomfortable discussions before they're ready. I even understand that many of these elements are symptomatic of larger social problems. Thing is, I don't care.

We aren't talking about damage to children here. Seeing a billboard occupies 30 seconds of a child's life and good parents provide all the necessary context. Several commenters had positively wonderful responses to the ad in questions. Thats the job of the parent, to explain the world and raise their child. I also call bullshit on the "I don't want my kid listening to offensive band A" argument. Again, parents have the ability to prevent their children from listening to music they deem inappropriate and, when their children inevitably find a way around them, parents provide the context and morality. 60 minutes of Snoop Dogg isn't brilliant enough to undo a decade of inculcation.

The Tipper Gore factor isn't about making the world safer or better for children, its about parents trying to make their lives easier. Its about creating the illusion of security at the expense of liberty. Those commenters who have voiced their desire to see limits, to see culture cracked down upon, there is a more timely comparison for you: the neocons. What you're discussing, on a fundamental level, is limiting the constitutional rights of adults so as to shelter your children and make your life less difficult.

I know, its not an affirming message, but garbage like this needs to be dragged out into the cold light of day. You aren't willing to give up Habeus Corpus in the name of security, you aren't willing to give up freedom of choice and personal sovereignty in the name of someone else's God, why on earth would you be willing to give up freedom of expression in the name of personal comfort?

My kids are only 1 and 3, so my experience with filtering content is limited. They're exposed to what I let them be exposed to, period. And that aint much.

I have discussed with veteran parents how to control online activities. I'm concerned about offensive music, but even things like child predators and chatrooms and online porn. It's all very daunting to me, cause it's the wild west out there. One thing everyone tells me is to keep the puter in a common area. But then I think, if I were a teen, I'd want privacy. And I don't want to be overly neurotic and intrusive. I dunno.

I do think the Captivity ads were grotesque, and they were apparently an attempt to generate controversy around a terrible movie, and I can't imagine trying to explain that to my kids.

But I think Jill Soloway (and Joss Whedon, who should know from censorship) went too far in mounting a campaign to get the MPAA to withhold a rating, which essentially meant making it impossible to release the film, instead of just letting it quietly fail. Basically, buzz is buzz, and it gave the movie a cachet that another shitty torture porn movie never would have gotten otherwise -- it's "Captivity, the controversial film," not "Captivity, just like all those other movies". And it STILL wound up not making very much money.

In my household, snark is the go-to for handling any uncomfortable situation. I'd probably say 'wow, there's your quality bit of film-making right there'. To which my daughter would snort in agreement and roll her eyes, and my 7 y/o son would say something like 'but that's a pretty girl'. And I'd say 'who deserves a lot better than being in that POS movie. There are better ways to see pretty girls'.

William,

in response to you, I agree somewhat, however, I do think a lot of hip-hop music thats popular is actually just women hating rethoric in the guise of personal expression. You can't sing about slappin certain racial groups, so why is it okay to sing about "slappin yo bitch up" ? something I never got...

however that being said, there is tons of good hip hop out there and loads of other genres spoiled by some bad apple group/bands.

A few years ago, I reached the height of my annoyance at the open display of violent porn in the convenience stores in my neighbourhood. It happened when I saw a little girl tug on her mother's arm and asking what a gang bang slut was. This was part of the title of the video sitting at her eye level with a nauseating piture on the cover. I brought this up to the store manager to find out if he thought this was appropriate. He brushed me off while a few men in line behind me taunted me. My husband and I researched the bylaws in our area for displaying this sort of material. The only thing the convenience store did illegally was openly displaying the imagery, there were no laws against the display of this type of language. We contacted our local reps to see if any action could be made but conveniently they could never be reached by phone (we did receive a lovely form letter in the mail...I guess that was supposed to be helpful). We did not feel that a local convenience store was an appropriate place for this (personally I don't think there are any appropriate places for violent porn but that's just my opinion). We also contacted our local police and they have been doing a great job since then at enforcing the bylaws. The convenience store that started this mission for us has since moved the material to a less open area of the store. When I followed up with the store manager he told me that his business had increased and parents had been thanking him.

I don't have children, so I could only imagine how you would begin to explain this sort of thing to them. I hope that if I do decide to have children one day I can have an age appropriate dialogue with them about being a critical viewer when these situations arise. It saddens me that this type of discussion probably needs to take place at younger and younger ages.

It is also upsetting that the women in sexual imagery seem to be getting younger and younger. Children need a time to be children.

On the posting about Hooters....we unfortunately just got on in my city. I hate that I have seen little boys with Hooters T-shirts. I wonder if any discussion went into those purchases?

"God, why on earth would you be willing to give up freedom of expression in the name of personal comfort?"

Strawman argument, for sure. Nobody is giving up freedom of expression. The Tipper Gore warnings are just that - they are an indication of the type of content. The content is still there.

Do you have kids, William?

I also would like to point out what I found sickening about one movie review for this flick:

"... the victims draw strength from each other and fall in love."

Ah, isn't that sweet? What is this supposed to be, a date movie? Barf. Violence for the guys, a love story for the gals?

Disgusting...

frog queen, the rape element of these movies has been around for quite some time; the specific genre of these films is exploitation. They were especially big in the 70s with movies like Last House on the Left, I Spit on Your Grave and House on the Edge of the Park. Rape and torture have always been the centerpieces of these movies.

As for how to explain it to children, my feeling is matter-of-factly stating that it's hurting women and that it's wrong would be best. Get your children to internalize the assumption that this is wrong and unacceptable and let their outrage grow from that, rather than simply changing the subject, or trying to pass on your own outrage.

I don't have children though, so take that into account.

I see a big difference between being against shit like Captivity and being against what Tipper Gore was against. She got up on her high horse after hearing one of her kids listening to Prince's song Darling Nikki, which granted, is quite sexually explicit, but it's not about beating women up or anything -- in fact, I think what Tipper objected to most was the part about Nikki masturbating. BIG difference between being against songs about masturbation and movies that glorify violence against women.

The fact that masturbation and sexualized torture get lumped into the same bin of being forbidden and worthy of censorship is just another indication of the completely twisted way our society looks at sex-- there's very little distinction made between pleasure and pain, and it's all dirty and bad no matter what. To me, the crucial distinction is when somebody's being hurt or encouraged to hurt themselves. Parental advisories should be based on HOW sex is being portrayed, not WHETHER it's being portrayed.

William, I strongly agree that parents need to do their job and teach children HOW to think and criticize and question on their own, so they can do the figuring out for themselves. HOWEVER. I think there is something to be said about freedom of speech (which, if you understand where that comes from, was designed so that people didn't get punished as criminals by the government for things they said - specifically, AGAINST the government) versus hate speech, verbal abuse, and threats. There IS a line in freedom of speech - it wasn't designed so people could go around saying things that hurt and invoke fear into other people. Nothing is black and white, including "freedom of speech".

And, I am a critical-thinking adult human being who is also hurt from these images and language, deeply. I have felt pretty messed up for weeks after seeing scenes from movies that I wish I hadn't, usually scenes of deep violence against a human being. I don't personally want those scenes on a billboard - in a movie at least, I can choose not to watch horror movies anymore because of my reactions to them, but it's REALLY DIFFICULT to escape seeing billboards when you have to drive on the highway on a daily basis to get to and from work. I do not think this is acceptable or appropriate in any way. Violent themes in general, I believe, should only be available in a way that you can choose to see it or not, instead of it being thrust in your face. I don't even have kids, and I feel this way myself - I can't imagine how I would feel if it was my job to protect and teach a child.

My mom did a great job of teaching my sister and I to think for ourselves, but it doesn't mean that while you can view it and know its social implications that you aren't at the same time deeply affected by it. Big difference.

My feminism was formed by my mother, and one of the things she did regularly was to sit with me while the television was on and explain the sexism in the commercials. It was often pretty basic stuff ("Look how the commercials for Star Wars figures only show boys playing with them! The people who make those ads think that only boys like Star Wars. But you like to play with Star Wars figures and you're not a boy." "Yeah, Mom! That's sexist.")
Posted by: EG

Your mom rocks. And I am stealing that idea.

My mom totally rocks! And she would be thrilled for you to use her idea.

If kids are noticing what's around them and beginning to ask questions, they deserve honest answers. My 8 year old son asked what rape was after watching a TV show. I explained that it was when a man or a woman forced another person to have sex. I told him that it was violent and wrong, and that it was a way to hurt another person. There's no need to give details that will disturb him. He seemed satisfied, and when he figures out that there's more to learn, I hope he comes to me for his information. The way I see it, if I want him to be open and honest with me, especially as he gets older, I should do the same for him.

I always try to be honest and tell my 4 year old what I think; and I just wanted to say to William, yes, that IS my job as the parent, but it really sucks that my kid is bombarded ALL THE FUCKING TIME by violent and hateful images anytime we venture out into public (which we do all the time, living in a city, taking the bus, etc). I haven't thought too much about wanting to regulate crap like the rape/torturre porn advertising, but what I do think is that there needs to be systemic change on a cultural level because this crap is just symptomatic of a pretty disturbing trend in pop culture, which indicates something pretty disturbing aobut our culture.

and I often wonder, if the message my kid gets from me and the other adults in her life is contradicted NONSTOP by advertising, pop culture and media, the behavior of many of her peers and of the government of her country, what's going to win out, ultimately? Is me being on top of shit enough to have my kid internalize my values over the vaues of the broader society??

"We aren't talking about damage to children here. Seeing a billboard occupies 30 seconds of a child's life and good parents provide all the necessary context."

Well, we wouldn't be talking about damage to children if the fact was that this sort of thing were rare. If the media didn't frequently market sexual violence toward women as hot, and if real sexual violence and torture were infrequent in our society, then no, William, we certainly wouldn't be worried about repeatedly teaching our children that it's okay to have fun watching women be raped and tortured.

Whether or not you believe in censorship, you have to clue in to the ultimate issue here, which is that there's a big problem with a culture that thinks this stuff is sexy.

I always try to be honest and tell my 4 year old what I think; and I just wanted to say to William, yes, that IS my job as the parent, but it really sucks that my kid is bombarded ALL THE FUCKING TIME by violent and hateful images anytime we venture out into public (which we do all the time, living in a city, taking the bus, etc). I haven't thought too much about wanting to regulate crap like the rape/torturre porn advertising, but what I do think is that there needs to be systemic change on a cultural level because this crap is just symptomatic of a pretty disturbing trend in pop culture, which indicates something pretty disturbing aobut our culture.

and I often wonder, if the message my kid gets from me and the other adults in her life is contradicted NONSTOP by advertising, pop culture and media, the behavior of many of her peers and of the government of her country, what's going to win out, ultimately? Is me being on top of shit enough to have my kid internalize my values over the vaues of the broader society??

I don't have children, but I have a sister who's 11 years old. Over the weekend we were watching television and she asked me why all the Axe and Tag body spray/deodorant commercials show women charging after men and ripping their clothes off. I told her that most men are very nervous around pretty girls and might say silly or stupid things, so the people who make those products want boys to believe that if they wear these products that girls will like them without the boys having to say anything. She made a face and said "but I'd only like a boy if he talked to me, and I wouldn't care if he said something silly, I'd just laugh and keep talking to him"

Now, that is the truth, a lot of boys around middle or high school age ARE uncomfortable talking to girls and want a magic fix like Tag or Axe claim to be. I'd rather tell her that then "some men only think women are good for sex and those are the kind of men who make these ads, and it's wrong" because I don't want to make her scared or paranoid of men at her age. She'll learn that soon enough.

I think it's something each family has to discuss in their own way and in line with the child's own experiences. My sister asked her question because she knows girls don't behave that way. My brother wears Axe and he certainly isn't attacked by large groups of bikini clad women everytime he leaves the house, and she knows that.