What does she say to the ass-shakers in the videos? Does she feel one can participate in the less-savory parts of the hip-hop culture while still identifying as feminists? Does she demand they change the industry, switch industries, influence those in power to change their industry...? I am curious.

The first paragraph of your post sounds like something I or any of my friends could have wrote as I also lived in Colorado Springs (went to Coronado, spent every summer evening in Manitou listening to hip hop and playing around in the arcade). I always found it odd what was/wasnt popular.

I think I'll go beg the university library to get me a copy of the book though, sounds like an interesting read.

The conflict between hip hop and feminism has always seemed quite blatant to me-- thus, my disdain for it. I also struggle to relate to feminists who like Beastie Boys and Snoop Dogg, since I find these artists (and others like them) contemptible.

As a Colorado Springs veteran myself, I witnessed a lot of the "hip hop" love arise from the residential desire to appear far more distinctive and gritty than that city will ever be. It seems that often, the attraction to "hip hop" is more about wanting to seem "cool" and "diversified" than actually analyzing the quality and merit of the music. I personally engaged in a great deal of eye rolling while living there, due to the abundance of upper middle class and upper class white kids trying to seem "ghetto".

Sorry. There just isn't a way to rationalize this:

"Should I slap her, or should I freak-ah
I'll take the strong and you can have the weak-ah.
Speak when spoken to
Yeah I broke a few.
and by the way I was hoping you
had a freak for me and a freak for you.
I make her do for us
the same thing you've been wantin her to do for months."

cest.la.vie, have you seen Byron Hurt's documentary Beyond Beats and Rhymes? It has a couple of white people in it who sound just like the people you're describing, except they're from NYC. I don't remember exactly what they said, but basically they like hip-hop because they find the ghetto romantic and exotic or some shit like that. Because yeah, keeping black people poor and oppressed is so fucking romantic. *vomit* I've also always thought that 13-year-old white boys are so into the gangsta rap thing because it tells them what they want to believe about black people -- I mean, hell, where were they when Public Enemy were popular?

Anyhow, my solution to liking hip-hop and being a feminist is to listen to underground hip-hop. Go God-des & She!!!

How come we never see posts about reconciling liking rock or pop or other types of music with feminist politics?* Hip-hop is no more sexist or misogynist as those, and just as there is good non-sexist rock, etc., the same goes for hip-hop.

*well, I can give an answer.

How come we never see posts about reconciling liking rock or pop or other types of music with feminist politics?* Hip-hop is no more sexist or misogynist as those, and just as there is good non-sexist rock, etc., the same goes for hip-hop.

*well, I can give an answer.

cest.la.vie, I can see that it has been a long time since you last listened to a Beastie Boys track.

Yes, they started out as snot nosed little mysoginists-- but they've grown up into well-rounded feminist men. They've spoken out against globalization and racism in both interviews and song lyrics and tackled issues of male privilege and sexual assault.

I remember one particular awards ceremony when AdRock asked the audience to reflect on the recent rapes at the Woodstock II music festival while Diana Ross (the presenter) TRIED TO SILENCE HIM.

Perhaps you should do some homework before you go around hating.

I haven't seen it, but yeah-- this attitude seems to be extremely prevalent. I know a woman who is so obsessed with black culture that she's actually racist; she'll do whatever she can to pretend she's "not white" and will blatantly treat black individuals differently. She's apparently attracted to the "oppressed minority" factor, and will seek it out because it makes her feel 'defiant' and unique.

Interesting aside: I worked in a lockdown residential treatment center with a predominantly black population. The boys often listened to hip hop-- until one day, I actually paid attention to the lyrics. It was a Snoop Dogg song, and one of the most offensive pieces of garbage I've ever heard.

I was livid. And once I got mad, the boys took notice. Pretty soon, they stopped playing music that was degrading towards women; and while some were annoyed with my criticisms, a larger portion began talking to me about "respect for women" and feminism, or even asking questions about why it upset me.

It was fascinating. All they needed was one person speaking against the accepted "norm", and they were able to re-evaluate the music and acknowledge the degrading connotations. Which only heightens my frustration when I see privileged and/or insightful individuals promoting or supporting this stuff. It seems like complicity through willful ignorance, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not familiar with underground hip hop, but my husband confirms that there's some really progressive stuff out there. I'll have to look into it.

Did you honestly just accuse me of "hating"..?

You're right, it has been a long time since I've listened to the Beastie Boys. My deepest apologies, I had no idea they'd reformed into such upstanding citizens.

My other criticisms still stand. You'll notice I mentioned Snoop Dogg, as well.

Whoa, you guys, no WAY -- I grew up in the Springs too!! This is hilarious.

cest.la.vie, I know exactly what you mean. Back in my hardcore uberconservative days I worked at a conservative organization in Manitou (you locals might be familiar with it... yeah, I was THAT conservative) and the guys there (white, of course) would occasionally throw out a lyric from hip hop here or there, in an attempt to be funny. Because black people's words are hilarious like that!

As a Beastie Boys fan I feel compelled to provide a little quote: "I want to say a little something that's long overdue - The disrepsect to women has got to be through - To all the mothers and the sisters and the wives and friends I want to offer my love and respect to the end". A little something from Ill Communication. The lyrics for the tracks on To the 5 Boroughs are worth checking out too. The New Yorkers out there must be proud.

I want to know what happened to bands like Digable Planets. We need to pay more attention to the lyrics of music today.

Beastie Boys get a little more feminist credibility for the fact that AdRock *IS* married to Kathleen Hanna...

I think that hip-hop needs some serious revision. All of the thugs need to be either ignored or extricated from the scene all together like they have expelled all the intellectuals with that "Backpacker" label. Women need to make more records establish a name for themselves with feminist/liberal views in that scene.

Lauren - I'm with you.

And, there are artists who use their music and lyrics as intense forms of resistance to racism, poisonous politics, and misogyny. Sometimes those same artists also write lyrics that aggravate me as a woman. Kanye West for instance. But just like you might identify as feminist and have what you think is a conflicting love for music that sounds misogynist to you, rap and hip hop artists are also allowed to be complex people, no? Not "allowed to be misogynist and given a pass for it," but people to be considered and/or engaged with around what's actually going on in their hearts and minds.

It must be how stifling Colorado Springs is that brought us all here ;) lol...

Seriously though, to comment on cest.la.vie's comment of a lot of the "hip hop" love arise from the residential desire to appear far more distinctive and gritty than that city will ever be, I completely agree. There isn't anything really distinctive about Colorado Springs. Nothing stands out as belonging to the city (although I have some choice words about it).

I take back part of my last comment... Colorado Springs does have something it stands out in, Conservative Overload.

Tasia, yep. Such a shame too -- environmentally-speaking one of the most gorgeous cities in the US, imho.

There are three definitive moments for me that convinced me that Hip-hop has entered the state of self reflection Sharpley-Whiting is discussing.

The first is Nas' decision to rap as a woman on the Street's Disciple Album

The Second is Jay-Z's song 99 problems, where he uses the word bitch, but except for the implied use in the hook, he is never talking abut a woman.

The third is Lupe Fiasco's album, in which he raps:

I used to hate hip-hop... yup, because the women degraded

But Too $hort made me laugh, like a hypocrite I played it
A hypocrite I stated, though I only recited half
Omittin the word "bitch," cursin I wouldn't say it
Me and dog couldn't relate, til a bitch I dated
Forgive my favorite word for hers and hers alike
But I learnt it from a song I heard and sorta liked

The problem, as ever, is still that there are too few female voices in Hip-hop.

sorry for screwing up my html tag. I meant to say

I used to hate hip-hop... yup, because the women degraded
But Too $hort made me laugh, like a hypocrite I played it
A hypocrite I stated, though I only recited half
Omittin the word "bitch," cursin I wouldn't say it
Me and dog couldn't relate, til a bitch I dated
Forgive my favorite word for hers and hers alike
But I learnt it from a song I heard and sorta liked

Got to second the endorsement of the Byron Hurt documentary, it is really excellent. There's this one scene where they cut from an interview with a bunch of black city kids, all assuring the interview that they understand that almost all of the gangsta rap lyrics are theatrics, made up to sell records and for the most part completely false; to another interview with some white college kids, who all love hip-hop because of how "real" and gritty the gangsta lyrics are. Hilarious. Also the dude from Ohio who drops the C-bomb...good shit.

I have lots of complex feelings on this issue. So much of the criticism of hip-hop is so blatantly coming from those who have zero interest in the music and culture: even when someone is coming at it from a feminist perspective that I can relate to, the fact that they have no preexisting relationship with hip-hop makes it impossible to make common cause with this kind of critic.

There is also the fact that hip-hop is still, relative to other pop music movements, a young art form, and to some extent I think a lot of the machismo that once infected rock and roll has not had enough time to wash out of hip-hop yet. There is still a myth of hypermasculinity -- of the sort that allowed a band called "Queen," headed by a flamboyant, high-voiced dude called "Mercury," to attract a fan base with so many know-nothing rednecks -- around hip-hop, that's only just beginning to crumble. Eazy-E was seen as an abnormality back in the day, but now you have objectively mainstream artists like Lil' Wayne doing songs about, essentially, being queer and here.

I have to agree with Lauren. I am not giving mainstream hiphop a free pass- I love listening to hiphop but like many others here I hate some of the lyrics. But the fact is that a lot of pop and rock is similar (though not as in your face and blatant). I love listening to classic rock and everytime "Under My Thumb" by the Stones comes on I change the station. But I think the worst was once when I was driving home late one night and a Beatles song I had never heard called "Run for your Life" came on, I almost ran another car off the road! I couldn't BELIEVE this was the Beatles, signing THIS:

Well I'd rather see you dead, little girl
Than to be with another man
You better keep your head, little girl
Or I won't know where I am

You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end'a little girl

Well you know that I'm a wicked guy
And I was born with a jealous mind
And I can't spend my whole life
Trying just to make you toe the line

Let this be a sermon
I mean everything I've said
Baby, I'm determined
And I'd rather see you dead

Holy. Freakin'. Cow.
This is the same guy who sings "Imagine"????

I think that mainstream hiphop has been purposely “devolved� to be a designated safe "hate on women" zone where men of all types are free to sing along and act out their fantasies of masculine power. Mainstream hiphop incorporates exaggerated ideas about black masculinity, i.e. lack of restraint, animal instincts, black super-virility, etc. Boys (and men) can live out their fantasies of super-masculinity (and hyper-femininity=sex slaves) vicariously through the music and videos.
White producers, writers and managers can cop out and say "hey, this is what The Black People LIKE to sing, we just produce/package/sell it" ignoring the fact that there is a booming underground hiphop scene that can be decidedly anti-misogyny, should anyone from the big studios care to produce them.

I had some deep thoughts on the subject but it is like, almost 5pm and today’s work day…I pretty much don't remember my own name so I am just going to leave it at that.
Take aways are these:
1) Mainstream hiphop= pophop
2) White guys love it because listening to it not only makes you “cool� and “hard� but you can safely build your own sense of masculinity at the expense of women’s humanity.
3) Hiphop ROCKS the house in beat and rhyme, but the pophop lyrical package that we are being sold blows big hairy donkey balls and is warping the sense of self and sexuality of young women.
4) Classic Rock, Pop and Alternative Rock can be just as bad at times. (Though not categorically as saturated as mainstream rap/hiphop at this point in time.)

Lauren, I think I would have to be persuaded that the lyrics to rock & pop are -- on the average and drawing from the most popular albums -- as misogynistic as the lyrics to hip-hop. I don't see it, but then again I'm really pretty clueless about popular music.

I certainly think you're right that much of the mainstream outrage against hip-hop (and the fact that this outrage gets media attention) = covert racism. I'm just not sure that this means that *feminist* objections to hip-hop are disproportionate.

None of which is to say that there's any shortage of misogynistic song lyrics by dudes (and women) all across the spectrum of pigmentation.

Speaking of pimps - is anybody else hopping mad about the whole Larry Flynt gloriously disgraces a few republicans thing?

Oh, there's plenty of oldies that are shockingly anti-woman - and not only that Beatle song that was mentioned before. "Under my Thumb" by the Rollingstones, "Lightning Striking" by Lou Christie and, my personal 'favorite', "He kissed me and it felt like a kiss" by the Crystals, among many others. Heck, even "Please, Please Me" is an uncomfortable song if you think about what the words are actually saying.

I think one of the reasons hip hop gets so much more attention is that many of those lyrics are much more blatant and filled with cursing. "Lightning Striking" is basically a song being sung by a date rapist but that fact doesn't jump out at you because the singer doesn't say "I'm gonna fuck you, bitch, because you're so sexy, I can't control myself".

*shrugs*

Holli, I think you're right - other genres have plenty of misogyny, but to me it seems like it's just less in your face, so it's easier to overlook. It's also easier to overlook if it's part of your culture and hip hop is not, and if people routinely talk about the misogyny in hip hop but not in rock, etc. So I think it's a mix of things, and I think we would all do well to focus on examining the music we like rather than wagging our fingers at other people. I still really like some of the songs that I now realize are offensive, if I just don't think about the meaning, so I'd hate to never listen to them again. But I think I'd have to draw the line at buying any more offensive music, because I don't want to reward artists and labels for producing it.

I'm with you 100%, Lauren. Why wouldn't a facet of American culture reflect the sexism in American culture? On the one hand, I simply can't listen to "Under my Thumb." But as despicable as the lyrics to "Brown Sugar" are--and they are, lowest of the low, definitely--it's a great riff and a great beat, and I think that's why so many of us feminists love rock or hip-hop or whatever other aspect of our culture is appalling. There's more to loving any form of cultural output than gender politics, as important as gender politics is. I love Singin' in the Rain, despite its deeply misogynist plot (bad ambitious woman tries to seize control of her own career and is sexually aggressive; good young girl allows her voice--literally--to be used by men in order to further their own careers and is rewarded). But Gene Kelly is amazingly sexy, the dancing is unbelievably beautiful, and the script is snappy and very funny. I love The Rolling Stones--and anybody who says that their misogyny hasn't been up-front over the years just isn't paying attention: "Midnight Rambler," "Under my Thumb," "Brown Sugar." But their beats, riffs, and often lyrics are so powerful, and channel such powerful emotions, emotions that especially when they first hit the scene were still taboo--sexual desire, anger, rebellion--that they still speak to me powerfully. The Beastie Boys' License to Ill is a fabulous album for much the same reason--the catharsis in it is amazing (I single it out as the album my suitemates and I used to blast over and over again during finals week). The history of visual art is full of the objectification of women, but but I adore Rossetti's portraits, for example, and Degas's paintings of ballet dancers.

Art is complex--it speaks to us on more than one level. Why would Hip-hop be exempt from that?

What I'm saying is that I don't think feminists should feel guilty about loving hip-hop any more than they should feel guilty about enjoying Casablanca ("You'll have to do the thinking for both of us, Rick," Ilse says.).

Heh. Does anyone else remember that scene in Spinal Tap when the guys are being told that the cover of their album--a woman wearing a bikini on her hands and knees wearing a dog collar on a leash--could be construed as sexist? One of them says "Well, what's wrong with being sexy? I like being sexy."

"Sexist, Nigel, sexist"

"Oh..."

But yeah, sexism in rock and roll has been so common that it was easily sent up in Spinal Tap. I suspect that part of the perceived difference is a) race and b) the fact that rock established itself prior to the advent of music videos, so seeing nearly naked women shaking their asses was not so in your face.

Courtney, et al:
I think the book you are looking for may be found in "When Chickenheads Come Home to Roost: A Hip Hop Feminist Breaks it Down" by Joan Morgan.
Reconciling our feminisms with the sometimes-misogynist music and movies we love is way too complicated for one book, but Morgan's is definitely worth a read.

For my part, I turn off the radio when certain classic rock songs come on. I get annoyed when I hear Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin singing about "Standing on the corner, watching all the girls go by". I bristle when Ilse tells Bogie that he should "think for them both". And I am shocked by the lyrics of the previously mentioned Beatles song.

However, the problem I'm having is this: we have purportedly been experiencing an evolution in women's rights over the past century. Thus, it would seem to follow that the art being produced during this evolution would chronologically become decreasingly misogynistic, sexist, degrading, etc.

Yes?

Up until recently, I believe this was, in fact, the case. True, there has always been sexism and objectification in music, but the current trend appears to be moving towards increasingly blatant displays of subjugation. I don't understand this discrepancy.

When I hear songs talking about forcing women on their knees, fucking them then dropping them, and commonly calling them "bitches and hos", I get angry. When I see women in music videos strutting around in thongs with oiled asses while men lecherously stare at them, I get angry. When I hear men repeating these lyrics in casual conversation, and see them acting on their expectations for women to behave in a similar fashion, I get angry.

We are still "in progress", here-- we still have a ways to go in our evolution towards equality. But think about where we used to be, and where we are now. Things have improved by most standards; but this is one glaring, pervasive, cultural area that seems to be regressing at a frighteningly rapid rate. I don't understand why. And I don't understand why I should be tolerant of that fact.

we have purportedly been experiencing an evolution in women's rights over the past century. Thus, it would seem to follow that the art being produced during this evolution would chronologically become decreasingly misogynistic, sexist, degrading, etc.

I don't believe that the relationship between socio-political progress and artistic forms is that clear-cut and one-to-one. I'm not sure that feminism in society necessarily translates to feminism in art. I think the relationship between political change and art is more complex than that.

this is one glaring, pervasive, cultural area that seems to be regressing at a frighteningly rapid rate. I don't understand why. And I don't understand why I should be tolerant of that fact.

I'm not sure about that. I wonder if today's music is really so much more misogynist than yesteryear's. I don't know enough about popular music over the past century to make that judgment. As to why you should be tolerant of it--I guess I'm not sure what that means. It exists, it's here. If hip-hop doesn't speak to you on any level, you don't have listen to it. But Courtney was asking how to reconcile her love of hip-hop with her feminism, so I think that's what most of the comments have been addressing.

"I still really like some of the songs that I now realize are offensive, if I just don't think about the meaning, so I'd hate to never listen to them again."

Which reminds me, anyone know where to find Keny Arkana's lyrics in English? "Tout le monde debout" is my favorite rap song right now but I have no idea what she's saying in it.

"it's a great riff and a great beat, and I think that's why so many of us feminists love rock or hip-hop or whatever other aspect of our culture is appalling."

Exactly - there's way more to music than lyrics!

Concerning sexism in music over the past century, I don't think that the amount of sexism has changed too much, overall. The presentation of the sexism has changed tremendously, though, and the current trend is for misogyny to appear more and more sexualized. I think that's why it feels so much more "in your face," both in hiphop and in rock, etc... has anyone heard that Nickelback song "Figured You Out"? Sample lyrics for your viewing revulsion:

I like your pants around your feet
I like the dirt that's on your knees
And I like the way you still say please
While you're looking up at me
You're like my favourite damn disease

Anyway, for anyone who'd like a neat look at sexism in music through the past 80 years or so (as well as the more empowering songs that have come out in the past 30 years or so!), I'd advise you to find out if the musical "Respect" is showing in your area. It's a little cheesy, but a lot of fun, and quite enlightening for those who don't know much about this country's recent musical history. Here's the website:

http://www.respectamusicaljourney.com/

Though the last few comments have veered away from this particular angle, I'd like to bring it up again. I'm guessing that I'm probably one of the younger readers at 22, and I think most comments are failing to give younger people much credit. I don't think that young (white) people only like rap because it's "gritty" and "real", or that those are even the primary reasons. For many, including myself, liking rap - and not just mainstream, top 40 radio rap - comes down to identifying with many of its themes like alienation, uncertainty about one's future, family problems, and here's a big one - issues with the criminal justice system. The suburbs and small, conservative cities can be mind-numbing places. Though the suburbs and low-income, inner-city neighborhoods are definitely different, I think it's unfair to suggest that all white rap fans are interested for superficial reasons.

I don't know if there's a way to reconcile supporting anti-woman music with feminism. It's a little like laughing at a racist joke - you're getting enjoyment from something that is degrading and ultimately harmful towards a group of people.

But what does it mean to 'support' music? Would I dance if good beats came on? Of course. But would I go buy that CD? Absolutely not.

The state of mainstream hip hop is a sad place right now. They're packaging anger and selling it to everyone - people who have every reason to be angry and people who have none. Unfortunately that idea of what hip hop IS leaks into underground hip hop, so whenever anyone hears good beats they write it off when there is great stuff out there - it's just hard to find.

Sage Francis is the first thing I want people to listen to if they're looking for positive hip hop. His lyrics are political, anti-racist, anti-war and he has good beats.

Sage Francis - Broken Wings
(about what happens to talented performers, particularly females)

Enslave people in this town, especially if their culture's rich...
Repeatedly told you ain't a fairy, you're just a bitch
Just a bitch, with a butt that's thick
So rub your tits, and thrust your hips
And suck my dick...

Jennamahree-good point. One of the major humanist ideals that rarely is discussed despite being literally at foundation of social evolution is ageism, and it's particularly relevant to this discussion.

Hip hop does not appeal exclusively to the younger segment of the population, but is definitely one of the edgier and more confrontational genres out there that is easily accessible. In some ways, its like the hard rock of the 80's, that way. It is bold and rhythmic, exploratory and loud, addresses elemental human conditions...death, birth, sex, arousal, repression, defiance, frustration. Hell, one of the first pop culture references to female pedophilia is a Joan Jett song. Hip hop is more overtly abusive toward the non-alpha male than almost any other kind of popular music, but there is also damage being done by other genres...take, for example your contemporary country music song, full of christian mythos, female docility, and traditional gender roles...with a vaseline lens on the sweetly misty video... notable and much-lambasted Dixie Chicks notwithstanding.

The thing that I'd like to see addressed, is why young black artists see a very formulaic type of hip hop as required, and why they are not encouraged to break out of genre music and to find their own voice. I think it's part of the conflation of ageism, classism and racism combining with gender violence to create a really disturbing relative normal, that this is the message that a lot of our youth is raised with. Powerlessness only helps reinforce that.
I think that's why feminist education among minorities is critical, is because that sort of oppression is endemic and corrosive. Now, this is from an avid Living Colour fan, so my biases are pretty clear...I like social activism, I like smart loud angry music, and I like precise musical execution. I'm also a child o'the 80's.

Per reconciling the values in music and my own personal values... that's a question that musicians and music afficionados have wrestled with for centuries. I guarantee every castrato thought about the road not taken, for every handel who loved and wrote passionately for castrati, there were muses who raged against their fate. The early music era when most music was liturgical was rife with this same quandry, as was the boiler of south american slave politics which yeilded latin music that we see formalized today. Music is ultimately about passion, directed in so many ways, and passion can be deeply ugly when focused on ugly behaviour. It is, by definition, extreme.

Having come from the land of calypso, where music is a critical and acknowleged part of the politial landscape, irresponsible music irritates me and reads like inferior craftsmanship, whether the composition or the lyrics are inadequate. Politics in the states are more lucrative and complicated, and language needs to be at LCD level, as does music, to sell. Personally, I like Snoop, Luda and various others' music but not their message. I think that popular music is a buyers market. If there are musically rich alternatives, people will find them. There's enough good music of an ethical nature out there for me to find entertaining things without compromising what I need to keep intact.

I like that we're eroding some of the racial and gender barriers in hip hop. I think that's healthy. I like that there have been more prominent artists using the full weight of the hip hop form in responsible social commentary.

Women are (I guess) the castrati of hip hop. You need them to sell the music, they are necessary to the misogynistic "pimp" image, but they are required to participate in their own marginalization. If we have real options, that is unlikely to continue. The only way to get those options are to agitate against the limited and facile stuff we get now, and promote the exceptions. Also, teach young people why compromise is dangerous in this circumstance. It's about deciding what's most important.

My favorite rapper is Weird Al Yankovic. We need more rappers who are willing to admit to being White and Nerdy!

Incidentally, Weird Al's polka medley on his latest album includes "Don't Cha" by the Pussycat Dolls. Don't we all wish that our friends were more like Al? ;)