I think I'd like to go home now.

God. I am so fucking glad I don't date. Ew.

What the hell? Um, how gross can Details possibly be? That picture is supposed to be sexy? Also, is it just me or does that train seem to be going more towards vaginal than anal territory?

Well, something tells me that the guy who wrote this piece and/or chose the accompanying picture doesn't know all that much about women's anatomy.

why would it be ok to demand sex of any kind, ever?

Man, after getting out of a reasonably long term relationship with someone who knew and respected my limits, I'm not looking forward to dating. Particularly not in the current college scene (I'm 20 going on 21). I think if anyone "demanded" anal sex from me on the first date I'd "demand" myself a cab and go the hell home. And never take their calls again.

Of course, that goes equally for most other kinds of sexual "demands". Male entitlement is a bitch.

It's amazing that they managed to just assume no man at any time wanted it done to him. They're supposedly offering "perspectives"--this one does it because he can brag, this one does it because he's emotionally stunted, this one does it because he wants more intimacy, but NONE of them even thinks about wanting it done. Not one.

And that would probably be the bridge to a woman's perspective on it, beyond "feeling pressure" to "let" a guy do it or trying to be a porn star. Given that this is one place where the sexes are TOTALLY equal (we all have anuses) it's amazing that these men didn't remember they had an ass. So it's not about sex at all, it's just another take on the virgin (she's a good girl, she just wants to give you pleasure even if she feels a little funny about it)/whore (she's yours, man, she'll do anything, any time) dichotomy, keeping the girls, girls and men, men.

The pic doesn't really bother me. I found it somewhat amusing.

OK, so at first I was just grossed out and pissed off by the photo and asking if it is ever OK to DEMAND any kind of sex... but now that I read the article in it's entirity... oh, it just gets worse...

"For most of my friends, it's sort of a domination thing," says John (not his real name), 30, a writer in New York. "[It's] basically getting someone in a position where they're most vulnerable. My friends enjoy that and they tell their friends they did it. But it's not like girls are ready for it—it's something they do when they're really drunk."

What the hell???? I believe that's called rape there John-boy (if she's so drunk that she can't consent at least, it is).

And the comments? I seriously cannot believe that an actual woman wrote this:

and to my husband, who is grossed out by NOTHING, its like the ultimate rewarding sexual finale for him. If this pleases him, i can tolerate walking funny and a burning butthole for a few hours.

this is disgusting.
and my first thought was the same as 13lesslee's, when is it EVER okay to DEMAND anything sexual?

answer: it's not. not ever.

Damn sage ya beat me to it. Hell given our prostates anal can be extra good for us. But then enjoying anal makes a man gay so...

And haven't any of these people heard of lube and foreplay. Ya don't just ram shit up there people.(no pun intended) Take some time, lube like hell, and actually enjoy yourselves. Its not a carnival game were ya ram it in and claim a prize. Its another way for people to be intimate and enjoy their bodies... Both people.

I blogged about this BS yesterday and I was hoping that feministing would pick up on it, too. It's beyond appalling that an intimate act would be seen as something that you gotta do so you can impress your friends. What. the. fuck.

On top of that, the fact that one of the interviewees would call it a "deal breaker" blew my mind. If it was a fair world, that guy would be jerking off alone FOREVER.

Ugh.

Well, there goes every other comment thread for the next several days.

I think I'm going to write the Lionel Train people about their new "XXX" line of model rail accessories.

Here, he pointedly stops short of romanticizing screwing a woman rectally. "Ideally, every girl is a disgusting pig who wants it," he says. "But only with you."

OH. MY. GOD.

Yep, Carolina, re: rape by virtue of not being able to consent because she's been drinking. I noticed that, too. I guess it's rape if someone wants to try to prosecute it. Which I doubt. But how lovely that in the meantime it's being joked about as okay in a mainstream men's magazine.

awesome.

"The physicality of it, being painful or whatever, shows how comfortable the girl is with you." Here, he pointedly stops short of romanticizing screwing a woman rectally. "Ideally, every girl is a disgusting pig who wants it," he says. "But only with you."

"Demand"? What in the fuck? It is not okay to "demand" any kind of sex from anyone ever. Gods, that's so fucked up.

Oh, sick. Just when I think I can't possibly hate men any more than I already do (half kidding), this comes along.
Sex is not even about people sharing pleasure to men; it's about domination and humiliation. This made me sick.

This is really disappointing b/c I thought Details was the one men's magazine that wasn't degrading to women (it doesn't routinely feature almost naked women in compromising position) and the focus is usually more on fashion and gadgets and whatnot....I guess I was sorely mistaken.

Is it OK to demand anything? I mean come on, seriously?

Is it OK to demand anything? I mean come on, seriously?

I once asked a male friend what the appeal of anal sex was. He answered quite honestly:

"Hotter, tighter, more degrading."

Well, all right then.

So what does all of this (the article itself and the comments on Feministing) say about women/men who actually ENJOY anal? I'm usually fairly disappointed in articles about this topic, since the majority of them really just discuss how you can trick or convince your partner to "let you" do it. It's interesting that nobody seems to think (or at least note) that butt stuff is something that some people voluntarily participate in. I'm not naming any names.

I also wonder if the reason that a lot of people aren't open to anal is because of articles like this that basically imply that it's not enjoyable, and something that men want but women are naturally supposed to have an aversion to.

Discuss!

Is it OK to demand anything? I mean come on, seriously?

I'm pretty sure it's not ok to demand any sex. When my bf made a hint that he wanted to try it, I said "Ok then, lets go find you a big fat dildo to put up your ass so that you will know what it feels like before you even attempt to do that with me." I figure that if my vagina isn't good enough, my ass surely isn't either. That place for me is only to expel things.
And I'm with Genny. If anyone demands that with me I too will demand a cab home. I happen to like walking around not feeling like I've had explosive diarrhea all day, thanks.

The picture is worse. The picture is vile.
And I agree with 13lesslee. So actually the headline is worse. The picture is teenage boy.

This is about where I stopped reading:

"I only had to persuade two girls. [I asked] 'Can I put it in your butt?'"

Yep, the words every girl just longs to hear, deep in her "disgusting pig" heart.

Let me tell you, one of my best friends had a boyfriend that 'demanded anal sex,' and now even the mention of his name triggers bad memories of his tireless emotional and physical abuse...

This is disgusting, but honestly, is anybody surprised? This is, after all, a magazine aimed at the Young Asshole Demographic, as it were (props to The Onion for that eternally useful phrase).

There are women who enjoy anal sex, and I think it's fine for them that they do. This article could have been about why people enjoy anal sex (and sometimes men do like it when women penetrate them anally, sometimes with a dildo, sometimes with just a finger to stimulate the prostate -- "tapping the walnut" is how I've always heard it described -- so men and women).

But that's not what this article was about. This article -- and its adolescent failure of a quasi-humorous picture (why not assemble a roadway and put a chocolate bar on it to make a "Hershey Highway" joke, boys?) -- were not about pleasure. They were about power, exploitation and dehumanization of women. With the notable exception of BDSM folk, who operate under specific and well-communicated rules, power and exploitation have no place in a respectful sexual relationship. None.

The misogynists who participated in this article and its picture are disgusting.

Oh this comment pisses me off 'Albert says. "There was definitely a thing in the back of my head like, 'I can't marry her.' How can I, knowing I can't go to all the places I can go with her?'

What, so you don't like a woman that has her own boundaries? Maybe she can't be with a man that can't respect her body and what she wants and does not want to do with it. Ugh! I bet he'd have a fucking freak out if she even mentioned him taking it up the butt.

Let someone demand sex from me anal or other wise and watch how fast I get up and leave. What you consent to do sexually is supossed to be something you were not pressured into some how a demand seems like pressure to me. Just a thought!

ekf,
You should submit what you wrote to Details.

So what does all of this (the article itself and the comments on Feministing) say about women/men who actually ENJOY anal?

I'm a regular commenter here (admins can email me if they want to prove this, of course), but I'm using a throwaway account because I don't want this story all over Google.

Well, I'm a male-bodied person who really enjoys anal penetration. It's not necessarily a subby thing: I like the intimacy of having parts of my partner inside my own body, as well as the sexual pleasure it gives. And I like it because you have to be slow and careful and vulnerable and trusting. None of my partners have to "trick" me to let them put their fingers or penises or dildos inside me (heck, it's a regular part of masturbation too).

The real reason I'm replying, though, as well as answering your question, is to tell a story. I and my (female) partner went into a sex shop we'd never visited before in order to buy some lube, and we asked the assistant for advice about buying some which was good for anal use. He was practically falling over himself with delight. He said that women come into the shop ALL THE TIME asking for anal lube with numbing agents because their boyfriends/husbands keep asking them for anal and they think they're required to "let" them; I was profoundly shocked by this, although not really surprised. The assistant kept telling us how delighted he was to sell anal lube to people who actually wanted to enjoy anal. But in the end we didn't tell him that it was for *her* to use on *me*. :)

I'm a woman who actually likes anal, but I just can't stand that article. Clue-stick: anal is not supposed to hurt! Not the first time, and not anytime after that. Either buy lube or don't do it. It's also not "degrading" and shouldn't make someone vulnerable. AAGGGGHH!!! These people just shouldn't be having sex.

Jesus Christ! I haven't read the article yet, but I'm blown away by the notion that it's okay to demand anal sex, let alone any sex. That is completely and utterly alien to me and my other guy friends. I won't deny that there's something appealing about anal sex to me, but degradation is not part of it. I don't think any guy should mention anal sex to his girlfriend without first trying it out on his own butthole. That's what I did, and I found it to actually be kind of enjoyable. But it's not for everyone! I better read that article now. I hope it doesn't depress me.

Haha, good write temporary. But it's sad about those women who think they have to "let" their husband/bf do that to them.

Um...hello? I have a vagina? If you want it up the ass, go find a guy.

I'm reminded why I hate most men's magazines - they seem to be written for nitwits who get off on hurting and abusing women. I mean, those interviews? It depresses me that they can find people like that and represent it as an okay, mainstream view.

I am getting sick of hearing about women who sacrifice their dignity, physical pleasure and pretty much everything else in order to please their men. What are you getting out of it, ladies? If your man "demands" anal sex (or any sex), he doesn't love you. In fact, he thinks you're a disgusting pig when you give it up.
Get a fucking clue.

um, lots of these fellas are lying for the sake of the author (this happens all the time in such "lad mag" articles). in the last several years before my current relationship, let's just say I've dated a lot. guys aren't "demanding" anything (let alone anal sex), and if anything they're requesting penetration of their own anuses.

Nothing new to add really. Just my disgust at the article. The whole control thing struck a chord with me to. One of my close friends was in an awful relationship in which he repeatedly raped and sodomized her. How the hell could anyone have the audacity to print this garbage?? I think that is what disgusts me even more.

Was anybody besides me just incredibly disturbed by the language they were using to describe anal sex? All the "cutesy" terms and euphamisms?

Not to mention that most of those men shouldn't be allowed near a naked woman...ever.

ekf - Perfectly put. I second that motion...send it along.

Jesus Christ! I haven't read the article yet, but I'm blown away by the notion that it's okay to demand anal sex, let alone any sex. That is completely and utterly alien to me and my other guy friends. I won't deny that there's something appealing about anal sex to me, but degradation is not part of it. I don't think any guy should mention anal sex to his girlfriend without first trying it out on his own butthole. That's what I did, and I found it to actually be kind of enjoyable. But it's not for everyone! I better read that article now. I hope it doesn't depress me.

Jane Minty, the comment following yours pretty much renders your assertion (guys aren't "demanding" anything) untrue. Maybe the guys you've dated aren't demanding anything, but just glancing at rape/assault statistics will tell you that many men are demanding and just plain taking women's bodies.

Temp 125:
I used to work at a sex shop in the West Village, and I cannot tell you the amount of men/women I talked to with the same request in the same scenario (he wants it, she doesn't - he's looking for a way to do it, she's looking for a way to get it to not hurt so much so she can do it and get him off her back). It was astounding, disgusting, terrifying, and disappointing. I tried to talk EVERYBODY out of buying AnalEaze - "it's not supposed to hurt - if you have to numb it, you shouldn't be doing it." I actually had a 10 minute conversation with a guy who was trying to pry out of me the "secret" to getting his GF to "consent" (I use the word loosely).

Him: My girlfriend doesn't want to let me go up her ass.
Me: Well then don't.
Him: But why doesn't she want to?
Me: It doesn't matter - she doesn't want to. She doesn't owe you an explanation.
Him: Is it because she's Asian?
Me: Whaaaaaa?
Him: So what if I just kind of shove it in there?
Me: That would be rape.
Him: (Eyes growing HUGE) Really?
Me: Yes.
Him: Oh. So what if I do it anyway?
Me: Please leave my store.

And then I cried.

Ekf: I don't know if you were replying to me, but in any case, I wanted to clarify. I wasn't, in any way, condoning anything about the article or trying to imply that, because some women enjoy anal, what these men are doing or saying isn't horribly, horribly wrong. I was trying to open discussion about why this topic is continuously seen as something men are supposed to talk women into, and women are supposed to refuse. This attitude is even echoed in these comments.

I was not, I repeat, NOT defending the article. At all. Whatsoever. It was insanely offensive and people have every right to hate on it - I'm just also surprised with the amount of disgust that anal sex itself (not the attitudes about it in the article) is being treated here - I'm actually offended myself by some of the comments on this page.

I'm also sad they included a Tristian T. quote, since she rules.

TheSoyMilkConspiracy: Jesus. I weep for the world. :/

I have had my brush with anal sex, in the same way I imagine alot of sexually unsure, pressured girls have had a brush with anal sex.

We're going it at it, sort of, and he misses. He misses, but because I felt sexually insecure, I did not protest. He keeps going. I start faking some cheerleading. He realizes what he's doing. He keeps going. I realize he's gonna keep going. My ass hurts. I don't know what to do. It's the age-old 'I-started-it-now-I-have-to-finish-it' situation that kind of starts to feel like rape. He finishes. I need to wash.

'Til this day, Chris is unsure if I liked it or not, and will try and tease me about it. I didn't like it, and I don't care what it may cost me, but I don't do shit I don't like doing. Mostly, because I know a man would never do it for me.

Thesoymilkconspiracy: yep. Anybody putting a hate on anal sex *per se* here, or treating it like refusing should me "natural" or intuitive should take it over to the "judgment" thread.

“I was trying to open discussion about why this topic is continuously seen as something men are supposed to talk women into, and women are supposed to refuse.�
Because it hurts. I know there are people who enjoy it and say it’s not supposed to hurt, but I have tried it a few times - I wasn’t pressured into it - and no amount of foreplay or lube or gentleness would make it not hurt. And it’s not b/c I just don’t like anything in that orifice, I do, just not anything as thick as a dick.

To clarify, in case I'm offending anyone with my previous comment: I have nothing against anal sex or the men and women who enjoy it. However, it's something I've never wanted to try personally and given the pain I've experienced when even fingers wandered back there, it's something I don't think I'll ever want to try. And I'm perfectly comfortable explaining that to any partner who asks, and I hope they will respect those boundaries. But each person is different and I think that's a wonderful thing.

And the pain thing does get to me a little. I think that if your partner really cares about you and your well being, they'll read some literature and take the time to ask questions and educate themselves to make sure that everything is safe, painless and enjoyable for both parties.

Correction, Sojourner: It hurts for *you.* That doesn't explain why women in general are supposed to refuse at all. I think the simultaneous expectation of refusing and giving to someone "special" is related to sex in general, and the cultural pressures we have as women.

"Sex is not even about people sharing pleasure to men; it's about domination and humiliation."

Thank you, porn!

That doesn't explain why women in general are supposed to refuse at all.

Because it makes us disgusting pigs, remember?

Hmm. I was under the impression that it is not okay to demand any sort of sex, ever.

Prediction: Based on wind speed, rates of rebuttal, and otherwise slowness of the news day, I'm calling it... 389 comments before it gets shut down.

Sage: A-motherfucking-fuck-me-in-the-ass-MEN.

Sojourner: Did it ever occur to you that, quite possibly, your body is not the same as everybody else's? Do you think that maybe, just maybe, just because something hurts you doesn't necessarily mean that it hurts all women? Nobody is saying you should do it if you know you don't like it - please, for the love of God, stay far, far away from it if this is the case!

You missed the point and your answer had nothing to do with my quote that you used. I wasn't saying that because some women like it, everybody should (fucking obviously). I was saying that it is unfortunate that something that I enjoy doing consensually with a very, VERY respectful, understanding, self-declared feminist man, is often misinterpreted as being "unnatural" or me taking enjoyment in my own oppression - on a Feministing message board, no less! And I was trying to examine why this is. "Because it hurts me" is not a legitimate answer to the bigger picture.

When is it ever OK to DEMAND sex of any kind?

I think if anyone demanded anything from me I'd be out the door so fast he wouldn't know what hit him. (Though chances are it'd be me that hit him)

I'm pretty sure if anyone felt they were allowed to DEMAND any kind of sex from me, I'd be out the door with his severed nutsack in my hand.

SarahMC: it makes you a "disgusting pig" to that vile piece of shit in the article, who is not, in anyway, a man I (or probably any of us) would ever speak to, let alone fuck.

It does not make you a "disgusting pig" to everybody, and I know you're smart enough to realize that.

I don't really know what you were trying to say in that comment, but if I misinterpreted it, I apologize.

For the love of Christ, people. Ass fucking is only about dominance and humiliation if somebody involved makes it that way (as the men in this article CLEARLY have - but they're not everybody). It's all contextual. Remember that there are people out there who think ALL forms of intercourse are oppressive and dominating, and trust me, you'd take offense if someone told you that fucking your boyfriend vaginally (I've never heard anybody argue that lesbian sex was oppressive, but maybe they have) was unnatural and that you were being victimized.

Oops, sorry about the double post. I thought the first one didn't go through so I wrote the second one.

Holy motherfucking shit.

FUCK but I wish I were lesbian. God-fucking-dammit.

The men quoted in that "article" deserve to die horrible, lonely deaths. ANYONE who would expect a "lover" to subject herself to something she had no interest in, only for HIS individual pleasure, deserves a horrible, lonely death. These sound like the kind of guys who would beat a woman if she tried sticking a finger up his ass to enhance his pleasure. Which makes it like doubly or triply fucking ridiculous, because physiologically speaking it can actually DO something for men, whereas my understanding is that, again, just physiologically speaking, there's nothing particularly special about it for women (not that there's anything AT ALL wrong about a woman finding pleasure ANY DAMN WAY that suits her, and not that women CAN'T get pleasure from this, just, scientifically speaking, men are biologically WIRED to have more of a pleasurable response to this).

I hate those men. Hate them hate them hate them. I once had a boyfriend pressure me for anal sex (among other horrifically offensive things he did and said). Needless to say, his ass got DUMPED.

Par for the course for DetailsFHMStuffMaxim (they're basically all the same magazine); this is a good example as to why I never liked it. I will admit to reading Esquire, which does have its flaws, but would never print something like this (unless I missed it somewhere).

I'll add my voice to the chorus of "it's not okay to demand sex." It just isn't.

When my bf made a hint that he wanted to try it, I said "Ok then, lets go find you a big fat dildo to put up your ass so that you will know what it feels like before you even attempt to do that with me." I figure that if my vagina isn't good enough, my ass surely isn't either.

Thing is, LindsayPW, there are women who like anal sex, and your boyfriend wouldn't know if you did or not unless you volunteered that information or he asked you. That's the kind of communication that I think we ought to encourage. If he were to show disrespect for your refusal, then you'd certainly have a right to be upset about that.

I could be wrong, Thesoymilkconspiracy, but I took SarahMC's comment to mean, "because we think we're fucking pigs just like they WANT us to think when we refuse something we might otherwise like..." In other words, she's saying be careful why you don't want it, it could be you're thinking the same demeaning thing about your own body they actually WANT you to believe...

But correct me if I'm wrong, SarahMC.

“I was trying to open discussion about why this topic is continuously seen as something men are supposed to talk women into, and women are supposed to refuse.�

I think it's just an extension of the framing of sexual activity as a tug-of-war between the sexes, wherein the man tries to push the envelope further and further and the girl resists him. Back in the day, getting a girl to go "all the way" was the big challenge--now, more women are willing to have casual vaginal sex, but still express reluctance about anal sex, so it's become the new (finish) line in the sand that guys are determined to cross, so they can declare themselves the winners of the sexual conquest Olympics. It's also seen as "naughtier" and "dirtier" which of course also makes it more appealing--it's the forbidden fruit no one admits to wanting, but everyone's dying to taste. I suspect porn has a lot to do with it, too, but I think porn just reinforces--reinforces very strongly, via the positive reinforcement of orgasm--bad attitudes about sex we already had, like the notion that degrading your partner is "sexy."

In any case, I've known a woman who was anally raped and two that enjoyed receiving anal sex. Of the latter two, one was dating a guy who didn't like anal sex particularly but did it because she liked it. I myself decided the answer would be "hell, no" to anyone I didn't trust to a ridiculously high degree after reading that if done improperly, it can cause permanent damage of the adult-diapers-for-life variety--that's not a risk I'm willing to take.

I think the problem isn't anal sex per se but the attitude that every man should want it and every woman should be willing to provide it for him. That I take issue with. And that picture is just...wrong.

just physiologically speaking, there's nothing particularly special about it for women (not that there's anything AT ALL wrong about a woman finding pleasure ANY DAMN WAY that suits her, and not that women CAN'T get pleasure from this, just, scientifically speaking, men are biologically WIRED to have more of a pleasurable response to this).

How so, The Law Fairy? I'm not saying you're wrong; it's just that I've never heard this argument, and I do get a little nervous when I see phrases like "biologically wired".

My SO just said something so off the wall with respect to this article that I haven't decided whether to hit him or kiss him. Your help would be appreciated. :)

"The problem with these men is that their egos are f*cked. It is not manly* to force another person to do something. We can all force people who physically less strong than us or less well armed. That makes you a bully and bullies are not manly. Manly is pleasuring a woman who's judgment you respect so much that she is a smoking pile of sated rubble. Manly is being so good in bed that the woman you admire is excited to try new things because all things with you are orgasmic. Now that's manly."

See...there were nice compliments intertwined with that overly-masculine egoistic diatribe.

*He says manly in his funny this is a stupid word voice.

You have interpreted my comment correctly, Sage.

Kristen, his sentiments were in the right place, even if his words weren't. :)

I think the problem isn't anal sex per se but the attitude that every man should want it and every woman should be willing to provide it for him. That I take issue with. And that picture is just...wrong.

Nail, meet hammer.

Kristen -

Your SO's attitude is better than some, but it still comes to sex being about proving his manliness.

"I turned her into a smoking pile of sated rubble" is better than "I blasted her in the ass", but it's still about his own achievement, not about "her".

Linnaeus all my bf needs to know whether or not I like it is when I say NO. I don't owe my bf any other explanation. And I certainly don't owe him a try with it. Especially if he isn't going to realize, oh this shit hurts, before he even attempts to do it with me. I don't have to do a damn fucking thing, all I have to do is say yes or no and that's good enough. That's why I say NO.

Linnaeus all my bf needs to know whether or not I like it is when I say NO. I don't owe my bf any other explanation. And I certainly don't owe him a try with it. Especially if he isn't going to realize, oh this shit hurts, before he even attempts to do it with me. I don't have to do a damn fucking thing, all I have to do is say yes or no and that's good enough. That's why I say NO. Oh, and the fact that he's figuratively on my ass about it all the time is enough to get my blood boiling. I mean, how many fucking times do I have to say no thanks before he fucking gets it.

"I turned her into a smoking pile of sated rubble" is better than "I blasted her in the ass", but it's still about his own achievement, not about "her".

Along with the idea that everyone must have an orgasm every single time for sex to be enjoyable.

Still, the idea that sex should be mutually pleasureable is definitely positive...

If the boy I was dating was so keen on having anal sex, I would tell him he should get a boyfriend.

but just glancing at rape/assault statistics will tell you that many men are demanding and just plain taking women's bodies.

Sarah, I wasn't referring to a rape scenario, but rather pressure in an otherwise consensual situation (which seems to be the theme of the article). To be honest though, it's hard to tell where consent ends and rape begins in this piece, since these personality types are so far from who I deal with.

I have no idea what the situation was involving the comment following mine, and I'm not making light of it. This does sound a little different than the scenarios in the article (which seem to focus more on casual dating). I just can't personally imagine staying in an abusive relationship. That's never been part of my personality.

I mean, of course it's wrong to force or demand anything on a partner - I think we can both agree on that. I think we also agree that certainly rape is a result in some situations.

What really sucks is that when it's a pressure issue, some girls feel the need to cave (heh) only for "his pleasure" (probably the kind of girl who also undergoes cosmetic vaginal surgery for "shame" issues). I can't feel sorry for that type of girl. I'll go to the ends of the earth to defend a rape victim, but I feel no sympathy for a girl who dates asshole fratty boys with these attitudes. Again, it's a social group I don't fully understand, so maybe the line of rape vs. consent works differently here. I definitely don't date Wall St./finance or "happy hour khaki" dudes, so I can't tell you what that side of the fence is like.

As far as anal sex itself...eh. Been there, and it didn't do much for me. The thought of that area acclimating itself to the size of my partner scares the shit out of me, pun intended.

Linnaeus all my bf needs to know whether or not I like it is when I say NO. I don't owe my bf any other explanation. And I certainly don't owe him a try with it. Especially if he isn't going to realize, oh this shit hurts, before he even attempts to do it with me. I don't have to do a damn fucking thing, all I have to do is say yes or no and that's good enough. That's why I say NO. Oh, and the fact that he's figuratively on my ass about it all the time is enough to get my blood boiling. I mean, how many fucking times do I have to say no thanks before he fucking gets it.

Oh, I totally agree, and I'm sorry if I implied otherwise. You don't owe him an explanation, and if he's still bothering you about it, then it's totally understandable you'd be annoyed (that's what I meant by not respecting your refusal).

All I was trying to say was that asking in the first place isn't a bad thing. Once you've said no, then it's settled.

Wow. I'm not even sure what the most disturbing part of this whole article is--the part where it's assumed it's okay to demand any kind of sex, the part where it is tacitly encouraged to rape drunk women. Everything about that article made me want to take a shower.

If the boy I was dating was so keen on having anal sex, I would tell him he should get a boyfriend.

Why a boyfriend and not just a girlfriend who enjoys anal sex? Assuming he wasn't gay and had mistaken you for a guy or something...

I have an almost similar tale like ikkin's.

When I was in college there was a guy I was trying desperately to keep, for no apparent reason other than he'd been my first relationship. In hindsight it wasn't anything more than a f*ckbuddy situation but I was too stupid to see that I wasn't really important to him.

Anyway, he'd been seeing this other girl (who he's now married to) and I was at his place hanging out and I wanted to have sex but he didn't want to have vaginal sex he wanted to have anal sex and that was all he was going to do. He described it as something he'd really wanted to do mostly because his other buddies had been engaging in anal sex and he felt left out. I figured if I did he then he'd actually like me or something (I was younger and stupider) so I agreed. I'd also been watching a lot of Queer as Folk so I used my curiosity of what it would feel like to justify the fact that I was compromising myself and my self esteem.

Even though we used lube it still hurt sort of and I found myself face down in the pillow not really participating. Mentally I went off somewhere else until he was finished. Afterwards we took a shower together, which I misread as something it wasn't, but for days after my ass hurt and while I joked about it and tried to play it off, to this day it's something I'm ashamed of myself for allowing to happen though I learned that no matter what I can't compromise who I am for a guy, it's totally not worth it.

If a guy ever asked for anal and persisted after I told him no that would be the deal breaker for me and I'm going to admit I wouldn't be nice and politically correct in telling him where he could stick it.

ikkin -

I'm sorry that happened to you. I can see how an experience like that would kill any possibility of ever enjoying anal sex before it even had a chance.

Your story seems to me like another example of just how important it is to teach kids about the importance of sexual communication, and being unafraid to say what they want. Lacking other information, your story sounds like it was all a terrible misunderstanding (your fear to tell him what was wrong, or that you wanted to stop, etc.).

Is this "Chris" the man that was involved?

On the main topic: ekf said it all, and the "tunnel" in that picture doesn't look like it's aimed at her anus.

ahh haha. i'm late to the party. everyone's pretty much said what needs saying, but i wanted to throw in my amusement--my fiance dislikes anal sex. it grosses him out in a big way. it was actually the first way we tried, because i'm a "good little christian girl" and was planning to stay a virgin until marraige (oops).

anyway, i actually enjoy anal--when it's done right.

but i'd like to point out that my enjoyment has no bearing on whether it's ok to demand anal sex.

Your SO's attitude is better than some, but it still comes to sex being about proving his manliness.

I see your point. But I disagree with it. IMO (which admittedly may be flawed) part of the gratification of sex is ego driven. We all want to be desirable, right? The difference is that those men equate getting someone to do something as making them desirable.

But then I also take great personal pride in the fact that I can turn him into a lethargic mass of jello.

Oh. my. god. That photo is so awful all I can do is laugh helplessly. And anyone who "demands" sex, anal or otherwise, on the first or the 20th date or the 50th wedding anniversary, needs to be punched in the junk and have his phone number lost, STAT.

Oh, and the fact that he's figuratively on my ass about it all the time is enough to get my blood boiling. I mean, how many fucking times do I have to say no thanks before he fucking gets it.

LindsayPW: Dump him.

SarahMC: My bad. You and Sage, thanks for the clarification.

And for reals, everybody. I could really do without the homophobic and ridiculous assertions that anal sex is something that is reserved specifically for gay men. Come on now.

Yes, I am really getting annoyed at all these people acting like anal sex is this big terrible thing. No, it is a morally neutral act. The problem is demanding. Does anyone have the right to demand sex? NO. Does anyone have the right to ask? Sure, feel free.

I am also a little sick of all these "I wish I was a lesbian" comments. That's bullshit, and clearly coming from privilaged straight women who don't know what its like to have your dating pool being something like 2.5% of the population, and don't fear hitting on strangers because they might die. And let's stop pretending that partner violence or emotional manipulation is strightly a male-female relationship thing.

I also really hate all these SadeeJane- "If the boy I was dating was so keen on having anal sex, I would tell him he should get a boyfriend." Its fine if you want to refuse to have anal sex, but let's stop pretending that anal sex is a merely gay act, or that invoking gay-panic to avoid it. That's obnoxious and hardly enlightened.

I can't feel sorry for that type of girl. I'll go to the ends of the earth to defend a rape victim, but I feel no sympathy for a girl who dates asshole fratty boys with these attitudes.

Ditto, ditto, ditto

JaneMinty and SarahMC:

Because I'm sure neither of you have ever made poor decisions about what guys to date, or discovered unpleasant things about a guy's attitude after you've started dating him (maybe after you've even started to or have fallen in love).

It must be nice to have such impeccable taste in men and such a strong ability to always assert your wants in everything that you never find yourself in an unpleasant situation. If only you could teach such skills to the rest of us mortals.

SMC, I'll share my experiences, which I've been open about for years here. I'm a het male, I've been both the penetrating and the enveloping partner in anal intercourse for years with my spouse, and I've played with my own ass since my teens.

I love the intimacy. Because the anus is tighter and more sensitive, getting in comfortably has (for both of us) always been a slow, communicative process. We can't do it on autopilot; we have to read our partner's reactions. We do a lot of BDSM, so sometimes we're looking to cause just the right amount of pain, and sometimes we're looking for a painless, comfortable fuck. Either way, we have to listen to and watch the enveloping partner to get it right, which gives us a powerful sense of being together.

The first time we had anal with my spouse as the enveloping partner, it took maybe seven minutes to get all the way in. Think about that: that's very, very gradual. And we used a ton of KY (I prefer KY to thinner water-based or silicone lubes, YMMV). We talked a lot about how it felt, when it was okay to move and when she wanted me to hold still. We both liked it a lot. That was years ago; the other day, she climbed on top of me and, on her own initiative, put my cock in her ass.

We have maybe a dozen dildos and plugs of various kinds. I certainly like prostate stimulation, but I also love the feeling of being full. (As an aside, I love inflatable dildos; they go in modestly sized and pump up once inside the sphincters, which is a much different sensation than inserting something really big.) For really comfortable assfucking, we have a very smooth-sided silicone dildo. It goes in easily and the strokes are long, smooth and relaxing. I can't actually come from anal, but I feel close often.

When I'm feeling submissive, sometimes we play with much larger objects, which require a lot of warmup (even for a big slut like me) and hurt quite a bit -- but that's S/M. I'm working towards fisting. (For the insiders like you, SMC, my biggest toy is the Vixen Creations Randy.)

People's anatomy varies widely. Some folks can't take more than a finger comfortably, while others can take a fist. I don't encourage people who dislike anal penetration to do it. It is a sexual activity that (like anything else) doesn't work well for some folks. And I really resent that the culture has made it (like everything else) another property transaction where men encourage women to "give it up" or trade it.

But I also dislike and try to work against the idea that I see in some places that it is inherently unpleasant and exists only so men can vent their misogyny. Among other things, that's an insult to virtually all gay men.

So, if you're not interested, just say "no." Anybody who doesn't respect that, best to weed them out early. For those that are interested:
1) There is no such thing as too much lube.
2) There is no such thing as too much warm-up. In fact, putting a small plug in place and doing something else for twenty minutes or so works wonders.
3) There is no such thing as going too slow. Slow insertion allows better communication, and lets the enveloping partner get used to how hir body is feeling.
4) Relaxing those muscles is a skill: what takes incredible concentration the first time comes much easier after enough practice.
5) Communication, communication, communication. Not just "okay" and "ow." Share information, like "it's a little dry at my tailbone," "it's very full but it doesn't hurt," "hold still and let me relax for a minute," "the head is all the way in, that's the widest part."

Tristan Taormino offers workshops, too -- Anal Play 101 and 201. I said to someone recently that she should offer a 501 graduate level course, because she has stuff to teach even those of us that are past the 201 level. When I took 201, she was teaching it as Babeland, though I have not checked to see if she still runs them there.

To answer the author's question... um, no. You don't have the right to demand anything sexual from anyone at any time. You are entitled to ask. If you don't get what you ask for you are entitled to be bummed and not date that person anymore, but that's it.

JenLovesPonies: you rock. just saying.

“It hurts for *you.* That doesn't explain why women in general are supposed to refuse at all. I think the simultaneous expectation of refusing and giving to someone "special" is related to sex in general, and the cultural pressures we have as women.�

And

“Sojourner: Did it ever occur to you that, quite possibly, your body is not the same as everybody else's? Do you think that maybe, just maybe, just because something hurts you doesn't necessarily mean that it hurts all women?�

Sage, SoyMilk,

I did not claim that it hurts for everyone, or didn’t intend to, maybe that came across wrong ( Did you read the “I know some people enjoy it� part, Soymilk?) I actually wanted to add in there that perhaps I am too tight. What I meant was, I think it hurts for a lot of women. That is, yes I know of some people who say they enjoy it, but I know many more who say it hurts. Therefore it’s reasonable that a lot of women would refuse it, even if it wasn’t for the belief that “only dirty sluts have anal�. And for more clarification: That is not actually my own belief. Ok. I hope that hopefully cleared things up!

I didn't mean to imply that I don't have sympathy for women who've been pressured into sex. Not at all. I regret including that part in my quote from Jane Minty.
I was more siding with her assessment of Wall St./finance or "happy hour khaki" dudes, as she put it.
While I do feel for women who've been surprised by a dick up the ass, I truly DON'T feel sorry for women who accompany their jerky boyfriends to sex shops in order to get numbing lube for anal sex they'd rather not have. I suppose it sounds like victim-blaming, but at a certain point women have to wake up and smell the coffee. NOBODY HAS A RIGHT TO YOUR BODY.

UltraMagnus hits it pretty well. Sometimes, girls do things for stupid, awful reasons. And this is because we don't teach our children to communicate, Seraph.

And Chris is the boy who done the deed. Things change, Thank God.

And, for the record, I think that if a woman wants to close herself off to the idea of anal sex, if she doesn't think she's comfortable with it, I don't think she should even have to try. So, yeah, I don't feel like I'm missing out on much. That's just me talkin', though.

Also, a note on women fucking men: most het women I have known have zero experience fucking someone with a strap-on. Depending on anatomy, some women can come from the way the dildo base hits the genitals.

Thomas: Is there any reason why that entire...thing was directed at me? Did you actually READ my comments? I don't recall asking for an anal sex lesson (I'm versed, thankyouverymuch). Needless to say, I'm a little...confused.

It must be nice to have such impeccable taste in men and such a strong ability to always assert your wants in everything that you never find yourself in an unpleasant situation. If only you could teach such skills to the rest of us mortals.

Um, no one is claiming such a thing. I've dated people with major issues, but the minute he starts with any abuse, I'm out of there.

As far as people getting upset over SadeeJane's comment on telling him to get a boyfriend, consider for a moment it has nothing to do with making generalizations on who does or does not enjoy anal sex. It's very likely the type of guy who would demand anal sex would also be threatened/upset by that kind of response solely because HE has unsavory associations with anal sex and gay men. Basically it's a funnier way of communicating, "what's good for the goose..." to someone who best understands asshole-ese.

Oh shit. I just realized that Thomas was probably talking to SarahMC. People often refer to me as SMC on this board (Soy Milk Conspiracy), and I gots all tangled up. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

Somebody get me a fucking cup of coffee, stat!

What really sucks is that when it's a pressure issue, some girls feel the need to cave (heh) only for "his pleasure" (probably the kind of girl who also undergoes cosmetic vaginal surgery for "shame" issues). I can't feel sorry for that type of girl. I'll go to the ends of the earth to defend a rape victim, but I feel no sympathy for a girl who dates asshole fratty boys with these attitudes.

JaneMinty, there is no mention of abuse here. Just you thinking that you can judge whether a girl is worthy of sympathy by the boy that she's dating or the things she does to keep him. As I said, it must be nice to never make those kinds of mistakes, and to always say exactly what you want, and to never ever pick the wrong boy.

It's also lovely that you think any woman who would do something she didn't want to for her boyfriend is a woman who would surgically alter her vagina. It says worlds about your attitudes towards women who aren't like you.

JaneMinty-
"As far as people getting upset over SadeeJane's comment on telling him to get a boyfriend, consider for a moment it has nothing to do with making generalizations on who does or does not enjoy anal sex. It's very likely the type of guy who would demand anal sex would also be threatened/upset by that kind of response solely because HE has unsavory associations with anal sex and gay men. Basically it's a funnier way of communicating, "what's good for the goose..." to someone who best understands asshole-ese."

And that's NOT OK. Invoking gay panic both generalizes who has gay sex (not all gay men do, and straight men and all women sometimes do) and implies that the person who wants the sex is gay, which is just not true. Again, that generalizes that gay men have anal sex. Clearly, a man asking a woman for anal sex is asking because he has a sexual attraction to that woman.

By invoking gay sex to scare away a jerk, you are merely reminding him that gay men are to be feared. It's not what good for the goose is good for the gander- you aren't asking him to let you put anything in his asshole, you are implying he is gay and that gay is bad. NOT OK.

SMC, the comment was meant as general discussion from the perspective of a het man who is both the penetrator and enveloper -- you said at 11:25 that you were looking to start a discussion of people who like anal and don't see it as degradation, so I was responding to that.

I did not think you needed a tutorial, and I did read what you said about your background -- the aside to you about the Randy was because I figured you know the model and probably sold a few. Likewise, you obviously know Tristan, or know about her, and don't need to know where to find her workshop. But I thought that info might be helpful to others.

If that was not the kind of discussion you were looking for, I apologize. I did not intend to threadjack.

Well I'm not entirely sure why the anal-sex lesson would be aimed at me, either. I mean, yeah, it was enlightening, but I don't recall saying I'd never do it (I have) or that I find it distasteful.
Thomas is right about one thing, though. I've never fucked a guy in the ass (like most het women). I'm curious about it, but I fear I'd be really self-conscious.

But I also dislike and try to work against the idea that I see in some places that it is inherently unpleasant and exists only so men can vent their misogyny. Among other things, that's an insult to virtually all gay men.

Well, then, I hope that you are writing to Details magazine and letting them know, because the article is all about het. men saying anal is a great way to denigrate their partner and gain power. Oh, and impress their drinking buddies.

For the record, I LIKE anal sex, but it has to be on my terms. Period.

I think I added to the confusion -- I was addressing SoyMilkConspiracy's 11:25 call for discussion.

Moon Grrl, I certainly am going to write to Details. The people these assholes need to hear from are other het men.

Only 102 comments? C'mon, more confusion or personal preferences-as-universal law, or we'll never reach our goal!

Hey Sojourner,

Is it possible you misunderstood the question?

I was trying to open discussion about why this topic is continuously seen as something men are supposed to talk women into, and women are supposed to refuse.

Because my reading of that isn't "why women are supposed to refuse something that hurts them" (which should be a no-brainer), but "why is the subject of anal sex so fraught that men are all supposed to want something women don't want? Why are women not SUPPOSED to want it?"

That means, even if a woman does want it, she's not supposed to. And that's what this is asking. So the testimony people who tried it and didn't like it would be irrelevant.

And LindsayPW, "let's go find you a big fat dildo to put up your ass" is hardly an invitation to intimacy (unless the two of you have a history of dom/sub play). What if you had offered Thomas's method for him above? If he had the same response, THEN you'd be able to say he's not willing to do tit for tat.

And you have to realize, LindsayPW, that describing anal sex that way to a community who may or may not regard it as part of their intimate life reads exactly like hearing one's penis/vagina lovemaking being referred to as "putting a big fat (penis slang) in her (vagina slang). That is, somewhat badly.

Further to Moon Grrl: below is the text of my email to Details.

"Your recent article about anal sex was further evidence, if more was needed, that our sexual culture is deeply broken. I am a straight man, and I have enjoyed anal sex both as the penetrating and enveloping partner; so I find it unremarkable that anal penetration has become more mainstream. What I do find remarkable is the misogyny evidenced by the men interviewed: they seek to dominate, to convince their sexual partners to do things they don't want to do, and they feel entitled to demand that women do things that may be either physically or emotionally uncomfortable. Because of this sense of entitlement, we are locked into a sick dynamic. These men have a conception of sex that is about "getting over," getting something out of women rather than doing something _with_ women. As long as they think that way, we will remain trapped in a juvenial and harmful culture.

I would at least appreciate the author's attempt to document this dynamic if the tone of the article were not so damnably neutral about it. Nobody who loves sex, and nobody who loves women, should be neutral about abuse, rape and coercion.

I would have written this in the forum section, but I have no intention of signing up using my real name. Nothing about that article leads me to have that kind of confidence in Details or its staff.

Thomas"

Thomas: Gotcha. I wasn't offended - confused, but not offended. And SarahMC, sorry for dragging you into that.

Since you're interested in fisting, may I recommend a fist dildo that we carried at The Pink Pussycat when I was working there (not any more, stalkers)? It's called The Fist of Adonis, and I liked to pummel my coworkers over the head with it. Glad you found one that works for you, though. Keep plugging away at it (heh heh).

Oh, and bend over boyfriend and general woman-on-man ass stuff = sweet action fun. Ok, I'm starting to feel like Itazura now. Ew.

Seriously, where is that coffee?

And yes, I saw the spelling error. Please, next time I'm beating on some troll for poor grammar or spelling, do me a favor and don't remind me.

Ok, I'm starting to feel like Itazura now.

LOL

Nice letter, Thomas.

Thanks for the compliments on my earlier post, folks! I very much appreciate it and will send it on to Details.

TSMC -- I wasn't so much replying to you as I was just struck by a few posts that seemed to indicate that anal was this bad thing that no self-respecting woman would want. I didn't think that was true, and I didn't think making the article about "Ew! Gross! Butt Sex!!!" was anything like the most important point to be made when coercion and exploitation were so much uglier and more to the fore.

I appreciate your response and your thoughtful comments nonetheless, though, and your story about the unrepentent wanna-be anal rapist is all too depressingly familiar. Guh.

Great letter, Thomas.

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was being personally attacking, but things were getting kind of confused between what the article was promoting and what peeps like you and me really think.

Hey, I remember that place. I was in there a few times when I moved to the Village. Then I found The Leatherman on Christopher, and Purple Passion in Chelsea.

Oh my gawd! I couldn't stop laughing. That's such a ridiculous article. They must have spoke to the most emotionally and psychologically stunted people ever.

the whole, "women aren't sapose to want anal sex" is retarded. I've been enjoying the pleasure since I was 19.

The automatic assumption that women dont enjoy it is soooo stupid. It's like assuming that every gay man likes anal.

Wow, look at all these posts! It seems nothing new needs to be added, but what the hell, I'm here.
I have never been intrested in anal sex, and my boyfriend has never requested it. If you are currently enjoying it, I'm happy for you. During a discussion among friends, I gave a few reasons of why anal does not appeal to me. First, there is a size discrepancy between my partner and I. Second, I just don't believe that it would bring ME anymore pleasure than good ol' regular sex. Anal sex? What's wrong with my vagina? It self lubes, is closer to my clit, and I've been told that there's a g-spot up there somewhere.
On another silly note did anyone else giggle a little seeing a guy named "Thomas" complaining about the image of the train?

MoodyStarr, sorry to blow your joke but I didn't complain about the train image.

*shakes head*

I wasn't so much replying to you as I was just struck by a few posts that seemed to indicate that anal was this bad thing that no self-respecting woman would want.

You mean like this one?

MoodyStarr said:

Anal sex? What's wrong with my vagina? It self lubes, is closer to my clit, and I've been told that there's a g-spot up there somewhere.

Which makes it sound like women who engage in anal sex don't have self-lubing vaginas near their clits with g-spots in them.

MoodyStarr, just because you highlight "ME" doesn't mean you're not generalizing when you use logic like that.

Why is it so hard to say, "Just don't like the anal play." Or "never tried it, doesn't sound fun to me." Why the need for all the rationalizations?

I'm completely relieved (and a little surprised) that all of the comments on the Details forum are criticizing the article.

Based on the photo, it should really read, "Is it OK to demand doggy-style sex?"

Yeah, that's all I got. Anatomically incorrect plasticine models used for stupid Details articles, be damned!

I just wanted to add my voice to the chorus of those who are using this article as an opportunity to talk trash about anal sex, women who engage in it, and insinuate that the guys who like it must be gay. This article is disgusting and there is absolutely no excuse for it, and I would never make one. But this article profiles a lot of assholes, as opposed to mutually respectful and consenting sexual partners. It's not the full range of human behavior. And some women genuinely DO enjoy anal sex-- hell, sometimes it's the woman who wants it and the man who refuses.

It's totally cool to not like anal or to not be interested in trying it. You should never do it if it hurts you. But any broader criticisms come off as incredibly bigoted and uneducated. What is this "I have a vagina" shit? Sure you do. Does that mean that you also refuse to perform oral? Or any other type of touching? Do you refuse to receive oral because your partner has a dick? It makes NO sense. There are LOTS of ways to get off.

SoyMilk, your story about that asshole in the sex shop is heartbreaking. If only you could get someone arrested for contemplating rape.

For another horrible story about men who force women who consent to vaginal sex to have anal sex, read this:

http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=9998

I cried the first time that I did.

Moodystar,
Anal sex? What's wrong with my vagina? It self lubes, is closer to my clit, and I've been told that there's a g-spot up there somewhere.

Well, for me, my vagina never self-lubes enough anyways, I never did find my g-spot, and it's easier to play w/ a vibe during anal. So, YMMV.

I would take a small exception ion to the "I don't owe my partner an explanation" arguments. Of course no one has to explain anything to anyone at all, but in a healthy relationship it seems like these things should be discussed. Not in a "why can't I fuck you in the ass, stop being a prude" sort of way. But in a mutually open discussion about sexual boundaries and why we have them. Whether its anal, BDSM, or the way past abuse effects a person today. Sometimes talking about things can lead to trying something a different way and sometimes its just talking. Either way thats not really the point. The point is to know your partner.

Of course none of this works if your partner(male or female) is simply trying to convince/pressure you to do something you don't want to do. But then that is hardly healthy. Healthy is wanting to know your partner, what makes them happy and what makes them uncomfortable. It also sometimes means reassuring them about things and being willing to try something new. Its about sharing and loving each other, not about trying to score sexual points or claim 'territory'

How so, The Law Fairy? I'm not saying you're wrong; it's just that I've never heard this argument, and I do get a little nervous when I see phrases like "biologically wired".

Sorry if the wording threw anyone off. Anyway, Linnaeus, my point was that the prostate gland (which only men have) is accessible from the rectum, and from what I've read, stimulating it properly can give a guy a CRAZY orgasm. Our g-spot, however, is firmly located in our vaginas. So while anal sex can certainly bring women pleasure, if they want it in that way, men are more "wired," so to speak, to have a more direct pleasurable physical response to it. And yet many of them balk at the thought of doing it.

JenLovesPonies: sorry if my sexual frustration offends you. However, the fact that most men are hetero HARDLY means I've got this huge actual dating pool. I'd wager my dating pool is just as tiny as many lesbians', since even regular plain old male het shit, I just can't handle. It pisses me off too fucking much. Call it self-limiting if that makes you feel better, but it's hardly fair to expect that simply because my sexual preference is for penises, I should put up with horrific bullshit. Same as you, I can't help what I'm sexually attracted to. When I say I wish I were lesbian, please understand I'm not trying to demean the VERY REAL struggle I know you deal with, that I don't have to because of my invisible het privilege. At the same time, if I were sexually attracted to women, there's actually a smidgen of a chance I could someday find a fulfilling relationship -- whereas, as a het, I read shit like this and I think "yeah, it's never ever ever happening." Of course I know there are shitty lesbians out there too. But het men are RAISED to be one fuck of a lot shittier.

Yes, Cara. Yes, yes, and yes! God, I barely ever even participate in the backdoor stuff, but the close-mindedness of some of these comments are forcing me into becoming AssGirl: Defender of Freedom and all that is Anal!!! Thank you for eloquently explaining what I've been trying to. I've been actively resisting making a "stick up your ass" joke.

And I remember reading that Savage Love letter in a weekly one time, and afterwards I promptly rolled the paper up, whacked my boyfriend over the head with it, and screamed "WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH MEN?"

Things I hope we can all agree on:

1. Men shouldn't "demand" anything. But they can politely request something, and a woman can turn the guy down if she doesn't want to do it.

2. There is nothing wrong with women who don't like anal.

3. There is also nothing wrong with women who do like anal.

4. Women who don't like anal should not imply that guys who ask for anal are gay or should become gay. That's playing to homophobia. Just turn them down.

What I would add, however, is that I do think that the issue of people engaging in sex acts that they don't like is somewhat more complicated than the discussion above indicates.

Actually, lots of people-- more women than men, but some men too-- do things that they don't really like to please their partners. Some women don't like performing oral. Some women don't mind performing oral but don't like the man to climax in her mouth. Some men don't like performing oral on women.

There are, in other words, lots of people out there who make themselves somewhat uncomfortable in order to please a partner. Are all of these people bad? Are they all collaborating in their oppression?

And if they are not, what's the difference between that and a woman who doesn't really like anal but decides to put up with it occasionally to please her partner?

I am not sure where I come down on this because I really do believe that sexual relationships should be equal, and that as a practical matter, it will be women much more than men who are asked to do things they don't want to do to please their partners. But it doesn't seem right to me to say that nobody should ever do this in a relationship.

Also, I am not sure the reference to drinking is necessarily an endorsement of getting a woman so drunk that she cannot consent to sex. That would be rape. But a lot of people, men and women, use alcohol to lower the inhibitions. Maybe they shouldn't, but they do. And sex after a few drinks, but where the person still knows what is going on and can meaningfully decide to stop the encounter, is not the same as rape.

Further, there is a specific thing about anal sex which is that some people use alcohol to relax, or to dull the nerves, so as to make the experience less uncomfortable. Again, perhaps these people shouldn't be having anal sex at all (for the reasons mentioned above with Anal-eze), but it would seem incorrect to say that this is the same thing as rape.

Nope, LawFairy, not buying it. Not all men are that way, and if you read this article and decide not to date, its not the same as there just plain not being many women. I agree that the patriarchy does influence men to be raised jerks; still, there are far more nice men out there then there are available women interested in women, period. In fact, I think its a little offensive, similiar to "I wish I was black; then I could wear booty shorts and snap my fingers" or something like that. Lesbians may have some benefits, but they are still a minority that is marginalized.

For the record, I am not a lesbian- I am bisexual. I just get really sick of this whole "everytime I see something that makes me annoyed with men, I wish I was a lesbian" shit on feministing every other day. Trying to date women is really hard. It really is.

JaneMinty, there is no mention of abuse here. Just you thinking that you can judge whether a girl is worthy of sympathy by the boy that she's dating or the things she does to keep him. As I said, it must be nice to never make those kinds of mistakes, and to always say exactly what you want, and to never ever pick the wrong boy.

Kimmy: I can, and I did. Girls who subject themselves to ridiculous demands that are potentially harmful also possibly subject others to equally fucked up "standards." At some point you do have to stand up and take personal responsibility. Sorry if I sound like a Republican, but that's just how I feel. I've already addressed the latter part of your paragraph previously.

It's also lovely that you think any woman who would do something she didn't want to for her boyfriend is a woman who would surgically alter her vagina. It says worlds about your attitudes towards women who aren't like you.

More like, the type of woman who feels the need to surgucally alter her vag (as a result of "shame") is probably also the type to subject herself to unreasonable demands just to please her man. No need to make such accusatory statements about my attitudes.

Giffy, the key word I think is "owe." I prefer to talk with my partners about what I like and don't like and why; they don't _owe_ me an explanation, even if things work better if we both offer them.

You're right, JaneMinty, there's no need for me to make accusatory statements about your attitudes. You've put them out there in plain sight for everyone to see.

I'll say it one last time. You are in no position to be judging whether anyone else is worthy of sympathy or not. Unless you're perfect (and even then I'd question your right), which you've already agreed you're not.

Sometimes people do dumb things. Sometimes they suffer for them. Sometimes they're fooled, or tricked, or believe that a sacrifice is worth it when it isn't. It doesn't make them bad people. It doesn't make them unworthy of sympathy. It doesn't mean they "deserve" what they get, or that they don't take responsibility for their own lives.

You don't sound like a Republican. You just sound like somebody completely and totally lacking in any sense of empathy for those who are different from you.

Agreed Thomas. I think you summed up what I meant much better then I did.

D.E. I would say that personally I am willing to be uncomfortable for my partner.

I happen to like giving oral, but after 15-20 min my jaw can get quite sore. Sometimes that means stopping other times I just keep going.

Hell one of the things that I really hate and makes me quite uncomfortable is role playing. always hated it in and out of the bedroom. However if I have a partner who really likes it and we have been together long enough for respect and comfort to build up then I am willing to do what I can to go along.

That being said there is lien between uncomfortable and painful/emotionally scaring. I am usually willing to do to the former but not the latter. And I would never expect/require/demand a partner to do either.

I would add to that, Kimmy, that people very rarely see what they're getting when they choose romantic partners. Sexual attraction is a dangerous thing; it can blind one to bad qualities. And JaneMinty, we can't control who we fall in love with. Can you, even with all of your remarked-upon abilities to protect yourself and sniff out bullshit? Sometimes we fall in love with bad people, and literally cannot see that they are bad for us. Sometimes, when we're in a phase where we are attracted to bad people -- who will perhaps teach us some valuable lessons about ourselves along the way; right, JaneMinty? -- we don't fall in love with the types of people who would be good for us.

That's life. JaneMinty, it sounds like maybe you've lived too much of it. Sometimes when people come out the other side of some really difficult things, they confuse present knowledge -- gained from the bad experiences, without which they wouldn't have the knowledge at all -- with knowledge they should have had, in the past. Then they feel like they were just not paying attention, or stupid not to have the knowledge, as if they should have been born with it. It's not true. We only learn lessons like that from experience.

In short, JaneMinty, have a heart. You're not in anybody's shoes but your own, but it would do you good to have a little bit more empathy, especially for people who make bad choices. If they knew they were bad choices, would they even be making them? No. And that's sad. And they're hurting because of what they don't know, and yes, that deserves sympathy. Even yours.

there are far more nice men out there then there are available women interested in women, period.

Not in Los Angeles. Or Chicago. Or anywhere else I've lived. How do I know this? Because there are only a HANDFUL of datable men in any of those places, so unless there's less than a HANDFUL of single lesbians in any of those places (bear in mind, this is the comparison you offered), then your assertion that there are "far more" "nice" men out there is incorrect.

I mean, how are you defining "nice"? A guy who respects your sexual boundaries and doesn't make openly sexist jokes in your presence? In my mind, that's not "nice." That's a bare fucking minimum to qualify as a human being. "Nice" requires a lot lot lot lot LOOOOOT more.

Again, call it my "high standards" if that makes you feel better (I'm not saying you've done this, I'm just anticipating the rebuttal) -- but that's part of the whole problem with our culture. In my experience, people who have to put up with other people's oppressive bullshit over time tend to evolve into much better people overall (as a general overbroad statement). Thus, I find that gay people, on the whole, are MUCH easier to get along with, or at least tolerate, than straight men, who get away with fucking EVERYTHING.

NO, I am NOT trying to demean the hardship of gay people. I'm just saying that I would prefer to date someone with whom I have a shared experience of oppression, than date someone who has never bothered to give my oppression a second fucking thought. Problem is, I'm not sexually attracted to such people. Which is frustrating. That's my point, sorry if it sounds flip, but there are NOT all that many truly, truly decent guys out there. I'm talking guys who've had their consciousnesses raised and who have a modicum of empathy for women's issues -- and most of them that do exist get scooped up QUICK, and for good reason.

giffy:

I agree there is a line that shouldn't be crossed, but it is different for every person. Obviously people in the BDSM community may well draw that line at permitting some amount of pain.

But some of the comments above seem to imply that there's no line at all, that unless the activity is mutually pleasurable, it shouldn't be done. And I don't think that captures the reality of many people's sex lives.

I am sure there are women who have anal sex because their partners enjoy it, they don't, but even though it is uncomfortable or even a little painful, they don't mind doing it occasionally because it makes their partner's happy. As I said, that does not really strike me as a feminist ideal-- it is women, much more than men, who are asked to bear these sorts of burdens in relationships. But it also doesn't strike me as that much different from what you describe with respect to giving oral. Your jaw is tired, he likes it, you decide to bear it and keep going. A fair amount of sex is like that.

I don't like giving oral. My boyfriend won't give me oral. So, he doesn't get oral anymore.

That being said, we never have sex.

I probably shouldn't be butting in at this late date, but, as a woman who's been sexually and romantically involved with people of numerous genders, I've got to call bullshit on this whole "who's got the smaller dating pool" competition. Is trying to find a het man worth loving like trying to find an advance copy of the final Harry Potter book? Oh, yes it is. Most definitely. Does lesbianism make it easier to find a compatible mate? Not in the least. Queer women internalize (and externalize) misogyny and all other manner of bs too. Plus the homophobia and lack of social support from community/family/etc.

The sexual culture is, as Thomas says, profoundly broken. We're all soaking in it. And those of us of any gender who can see that and want to make change/do things differently are few and far between.

I would have to recommend to you, The Law Fairy, to read Female Chauvinistic Pigs by Ariel Levy (i hope i spelled all that corrrectly). I would truly have believed that lesbians could have it better than female heterosexuals until I read that book. Intense insight into how much misogyny and patriarchal bullshit has infiltrated everyone's sex lives and relationships. I encourage you read it. And everyone else here. Great insight. Not saying that everything it says in the book is true for everyone (which the author also never claims), but it will open eyes for sure. Just my FYI.

Law Fairy, I live outside of Chicago. I'll tell you what, I will set you up with many of the fantastic men I know, if you set me up on a date with all these fantastic women interested in women that you think are chilling somewhere.

I see where you are coming from with the idea that the gays are more evolved because of their oppression, and I can agree with that in a broad sense. But they also have to deal with all sorts of cultural self-hating internalized homophobia bullshit. Then try being a bisexual- well, then you are a double crosser, greedy, out to date everyone, and everyone is afraid you will leave them for the opposire gender. Even the gays are biphobic.

I do think you have higher standards, which is not a rebuttal, just a statement of fact. That's awesome. You still have many more options and can be completely out to everyone about being straight, and you have many straight-oriented places to meet men. Where am I supposed to go in the suburbs of Chicago to meet women? How many lesbian bars do you think are in Naperville?

TLF:

Linnaeus, my point was that the prostate gland (which only men have) is accessible from the rectum, and from what I've read, stimulating it properly can give a guy a CRAZY orgasm. Our g-spot, however, is firmly located in our vaginas. So while anal sex can certainly bring women pleasure, if they want it in that way, men are more "wired," so to speak, to have a more direct pleasurable physical response to it. And yet many of them balk at the thought of doing it.

Okay; it wasn't clear to me from your original comment that you were comparing men and women as receivers/envelopers. Having both penetrated and been penetrated anally, I can say that the more intense experience - for me - was being the enveloper. My partners (all female) who have had anal sex said it was intense for them; some liked it, some didn't.

And yes, prostate stimulation can generate an intense orgasm (though again, every guy is a little different), but it's not easy to do "right". Given the difficulties I've experienced, I'm willing to pass it up.

Re: "I wish I were a lesbian"

I wanted to say something in response, but wasn't sure what to say since being a hetero man does bias me somewhat. I really can't begrudge a straight woman's frustration/exasperation with a lot of guys out there. I've done sexist thing that I wish I hadn't in retrospect, and I admit that I still do them from time to time.

People are flawed. People mess up - a lot. I'm not saying anyone has to settle for anything, but I think it's worth the effort to recognize we all have human frailties.

D.E. I agree that it is often women who are asked to "grin and bear it" My gender has certainly done much more demanding then accommodating. Hell as much as it would harm me personally I can certainly see the reasoning behind the "hetro-sex as oppressive" idea in some feminist theories. Unfortunately many of us men continue to propagate the very ideas of sex that help inspire such theories. It is high time that we question and critique constructions of masculinity in the same way the feminism has critiqued femininity. But that is a whole other discussion.

It seems like the biggest thing in all this is communication and respect. Draw lines, talk about and during sex and most importantly only fuck the right people. :)

Giffy, the biggest thing in all this is how we raise our sons.

Just to be clear, because I'm really and truly NOT trying to say I think lesbians have it "easier" (I really honestly don't) or that all men suck or something similarly misandric.

I guess it boils down to this: I want to date a feminist. I have gay friends and have been to gay clubs/bars (including specifically lesbian bars/clubs, which I know are VERY different from those that cater to gay men) and have been to Pride events and have read gay activist writings, etc., and I overwhelmingly find that, in terms of proportions, there are far more feminist lesbians (hell, even gay men) than there are feminist straight men. I know there are some feminist straight men, such as the fabulous guys who post here, but my sense is that there are far more feminist lesbians.

I'm not suggesting that means there are all these great catches out there floating about in the world of lesbianism. I'm talking about a BASELINE here. I'm just really frustrated with meeting guys who actually seem really great on the surface, and are in fact what most people would consider to be perfectly decent guys and great catches -- and when it comes down to it, yeah, overall, there's nothing objectively "wrong" with them, they think racism and sexism are bad bad evil things, etc. But they are not FEMINISTS. And once it comes down to it, we just don't get along well enough for a relationship to even enter the question. Sooner or later he's going to piss me off and shrug off my reaction as "crazy" rather than bother trying to understand what was so infuriating about his attitude. So when pretty much every guy I have met in the world is not even a remote possibility, and on the other hand I know some awesome feminist lesbians (and gay men), it gets a little frustrating that my sexual preference has me so firmly entrenched toward the vast wasteland of non-feminist men. Again, not saying being lesbian is "easier," not saying there aren't otherwise perfectly honorable men out there. Just that, the average lesbian you meet, good chance she's also a feminist. Whereas maybe, MAYBE 1% of straight guys out there are legitimately feminist.

So, it's slim pickins for me too, and unfortunately they don't have feminist bars where I can go try to meet anyone (and NONE, not ONE of my female friends ever even remotely considers this issue when trying to set me up etc.), so I feel your pain, Jen, re Naperville.

Oh, also Jen, I didn't know about biphobia even from the gay community. I'm really sorry, that BEYOND sucks :P

You know...the artical is absolutely abhorrent. It sheds the worst light on the male gender imaginable. The way it is written, basically pegging all men as sexual predators and all women as submissives, is absolutely disgusting. However...

Anatomically, yes, it is pleasurable for a woman to receive anal sex. The clitoris actually extends from the nub in two prongs that touch the anus. So, it is actually possible for many women to get clitoral stimulation through anal sex.

((yes, I'm entering the TMI zone, but I'm a woman who quite enjoys anal sex))

However, the article failed to address anal sex as anything but a guy's thing...to please the man, not the woman.

Also, the article failed to examine the pleasures of switching roles...have the woman penetrate the man (using whatever you feel like--finger, plug, dildo, etc.) The prostate (P-spot) can only be stimulated this way, and (from what my partner tells me) it's VERY pleasurable. As in, as my friend who works at Good Vibrations said while teaching a class on physiology of pleasure, "Yes, yes, YES! Play with the P-spot, ladies and gentleman. BIG difference, you'll see."

So, now that I've officially extablished what a nerd I am when it comes to sex...lol

All of this outrage and intelligence ought to be redirected to the comments section of the story itself.

Less preaching to the choir, more effecting change. :)

Thanks Jen for saying what I was going to say about how not every woman interested in women gets to live in a big, liberal city where there might be lots of them floating about.

And here's one more thing. Just because a woman is some version of queer doesn't mean that you'd have anything more in common with her or that she'd be good in a relationship. For example, like a lot of ppl on this board, I prefer to date feminists (and you would think as a lesbian, that wouldn't be hard to do, lol). But unfortunitly, like being female, being queer, doesn't automatically mean that you're even vagueing feminist in values at all.

And for my last tangent, this is for SMC (Soymilk not Sarah lol), you said way earlier that you don't view lesbian sex as very oppressive. I think that's kind of overgeneralizing. There is (unfortunitly) nothing special about lesbians that excludes anyone from turning the sex into an oppressive thing. And I bet that you were probably talking about oral sex when you said 'lesbian sex', but it's not like any queer woman is limited to just that. Or that she couldn't make that also oppressive if she really wanted to.

Law Fairy, ok, I think I finally get it. Thank you for explaining how you feel- and I think I understand and agree. The number of available men I know that would identify as feminists, and who really live it, is very small. And out of the glbtq people I know, a larger percentage of them (than straght men) ID as feminists. Sadly, that doesn't mean any of them are dating me.

Next time you are near Chicago, let's start a feminist bar for all genders and orientations. :)

Let's stop whining and moaning on feministing and direct those thoughts towards the assholes responsible for this. (p.s. if you read the entire article you'll be even more disgusted)

http://men.style.com/services/contact

Where am I supposed to go in the suburbs of Chicago to meet women? How many lesbian bars do you think are in Naperville?

Forget being into anal -- no self-respecting woman would live in Naperville!!!

Sorry -- couldn't resist the tease. It sucks that there isn't a bigger GLBTQ presence outside of urban enclaves. It also sucks that there aren't more feminists of every stripe of human.

That being said, it's never made any sense to me to engage in categorical misery comparisons. No one can really ever know whether Latino bisexual women have it worse than trans women confined to wheelchairs (or whatever other groups one might want to glob together for comparative purposes), so why bother? It's fine to acknowledge the specific challenges of being one "type" of person, but whether it's better or worse than what someone of another "type" goes through? Waste of effort, IMO, and often reads as insulting, no matter how well meant or well said.

efk- hee hee. Naperville does suck- I don't live there, I just occasionally drink there.

I don't want a pity party for lesbians or anything, and I hope it didn't come off that way. I just want feminists to ban from their vocabulary, "I wish I was a lesbian" whenever there is evidence that men suck. Its just offensive, and it ignores the real issues non-straight women face on the dating market.

I think demand is a loaded word. On the one hand, sex is very much like the rest of a relationship in that it's about compatibility. If one partner needs certain things, and the other is unwilling, it's perhaps not a relationship that is going to work out.

My real trouble is with the language the article describing women. "Ideally, every girl is a disgusting pig who wants it," he says. "But only with you."..."Once a guy has anal sex, he's put on a pedestal by his peers"

These men talk about sex as something to brag about, as pain for the woman being part of the excitement, and how coercion works to push through a "no". This view and ideology of women is what we should be disgusted by, not that anal sex is on the rise.

The normalisation of anal sex is just another part of the whole pornogrification of society. If you look at a lot of these porn websites you will notice that actually most of the sex shown is oral or anal. It's like vaginas went out of fashion. Now clearly what evolution is trying to get us all to enjoy is vaginal sex, so why the shift? Well it's all about power isn't it? On the oral side it's being aggressive and making the woman choke, on the anal side it's being aggressive and causing pain. Vaginal sex rarely hurts however enthusiastically you do it, and no pain = no power = no fun. Puke!

Cruella, um I think women can receive oral too, and while I can't speak for others, I have yet to encounter a clit that made me choke, nor have I EVER EVER EVER forced a woman to choke on my penis.

And the evolution argument... EvPsych is generally pretty anti-feminist and really anti-most reasonable positions. Yah genes matter but fortunately we poses brains that allow us to consciously or not override them. Not to mention that the idea that genes only code for one type of sexuality is not really supported by evidence or basic observation.

"I had a girlfriend who I was with for a long time and she wasn't into it," Albert says. "There was definitely a thing in the back of my head like, 'I can't marry her.' How can I, knowing I can't go to all the places I can go with her? The physicality of it, being painful or whatever, shows how comfortable the girl is with you."

If she won't let me hurt her and do something she finds extremely uncomfortable just so that I can get off for 15 minutes, then I couldn't marry her. Seriously, where's the respect? Or the romance for that matter? Arsehole.

Wow. 150+ comments and we're all pretty much saying the same things.

1. Some people like anal sex, some don't.

2. Like it or hate it, no one has the right to demand it.

3. Details magazine sucks and the interviewees in their articles are either actual jackass rapists or fictional jackass rapists.

Oh, and I have to agree with giffy re. the EvoPyschos (evolutionary psychologists). That is possibly the worst field of study in the natural or social sciences (I'm not sure where it proudly falls and twists it's ankle).

After reading all about the "marauding bands of lesbians" bullshit, I have to ask: why isn't anyone accusing Details of trying to convince women to become lesbians? If I weren't one already, I'd sure as hell be seriously considering it after reading that thing.

you said way earlier that you don't view lesbian sex as very oppressive. I think that's kind of overgeneralizing. There is (unfortunitly) nothing special about lesbians that excludes anyone from turning the sex into an oppressive thing. And I bet that you were probably talking about oral sex when you said 'lesbian sex', but it's not like any queer woman is limited to just that. Or that she couldn't make that also oppressive if she really wanted to.

Faerylore:

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wrong, wrong, wrong. I NEVER said that I don't view lesbian sex as oppressive. What I said was: I've never HEARD anybody argue that lesbian sex was oppressive, BUT MAYBE THEY HAVE.

In the comment in question, I was speaking STRICLY about the Katharine McKinnons and Andrea Dworkins of the world who view all heterosexual vaginal intercourse, even consentual, as women finding enjoyment in their own oppression. I threw the lesbian thing in there simply because I didn't want to appear heterocentric and wanted to note that I wasn't ignoring the queer community. I never actually made any assumptions about it or the sex that they have, which I made perfectly clear.

To get into oppression within the queer community would be a whole 'nother hugeass issue that I think didn't really have anything to do with my original comment, so I didn't.

And please, your "and I bet when you were talking about 'oral sex' when you said 'lesbian sex'" comment was beyond patronizing. I've worked in a sex shop, I've been a certified sexual health educatior, and I used to do a sex talk show. Human Sexuality was my emphasis in college. I (along with anybody who has at least the IQ of a brick) know that lesbian sex goes far beyond two chicks half-heartedly lapping at each other's pussies to bad music.

P.S. Forgive me - my boyfriend's comp has no spellchecker.

A little slow on the uptake, but a feminist bar?? That would be fucking awesome!

Cruella:

Vaginal sex rarely hurts however enthusiastically you do it.

Yeah, try telling that to my cervix when someone's banging away at my apparently unable-to-feel-pain-because-it's-magic vagina.

And "evolution is tying to get us to enjoy vaginal sex." REALLY? I mean, you know that the clit is nowhere near the vagina, right? And that most women (over 80%) need clitoral stimulation to have an orgasm? And having vaginal intercourse does not necessarily mean that the clit will be directly stimulated, so to this same group of women, vaginal penetration, while nice, is usually not required in any way to come? These are all biological facts, so while you and the whole "clitoral orgasms make me nervous because it means penises and therefore men aren't necessary" camp like to argue otherwise, evolution doesn't actually require any kind of penetration for women to "enjoy" sex - quite the opposite, actually. Now I am, of course, generalizing, and some women are capable from orgasm via penetration, but it's no big mystery that the clit is the primary spot for female pleasure.

I could go on, but I think everyone else can see the blatant ridiculousness in your post without me pointing it out.

And a feminist bar would be awesome, but you know it'd be packed with nothing but dudes just trying to get a taste of that sweet, liberated, feminist ass.

Word about the whole "I wish I was a lesbian" thing, JLP. I went through a time in my twenties when all of my straight women friends couldn't stop saying that, and I couldn't convince them that it sure as f*ck didn't make life or love or sex any easier. Fortunately, I either don't have those friends anymore or they've shut up about it -- I haven't heard that in a long while.

Ironically, after fifteen years of queer sex & dating, I'm now in the healthiest relationship of my life -- with a cisgender man who is an actual bona fide real deal feminist. Which proves nothing except that life is long and odds don't ever tell the whole story, because the odds against that? Infinitesimal.

Also, did you see this awhile back on Postcards from Guyville? A proposal for a feminist hanky code. It didn't seem to go anywhere (not on her blog, at least, and I haven't seen it elsewhere), but it sure seemed like a good idea, at least until feminist bars start springing up!

why isn't anyone accusing Details of trying to convince women to become lesbians?

Lol, Elise, I actually had a similar thought, rather that they're trying to convince women to never have anal sex. I've never had it, but I've sometimes thought it might be fun to try...However, reading this article makes me really, really reconsider doing it. Or at the very least, I think I'd have to be with a guy for a while and know that he doesn't think of me as some debased whore and that he wouldn't think that of me afterwards. Not because I think anal sex is dirty or gross, but because it fucking sucks to really enjoy a sex act and then find out that it made your "partner" think of you as a "disgusting pig." Of course, this is also why I don't have a lot of vaginal sex anymore, because I've encountered one too many guys who think I'm a worthless whore after I sleep with them. (But of course, them having put out for me doesn't make them dirty or worthless...) So yeah, it's almost funny that their stupid vile little article has made at least one woman in the world less willing to have anal, except oh wait, that doesn't even matter because they'll just force it on unwilling women. Charming.

Also, Thomas, I think it's really cool of you to post info on safe anal. I've heard a lot of it in bits and pieces before, but having it laid out so clearly makes it even more obvious how irresponsible that article is -- the author makes it sound like you can just stick it in and pump away like your girlfriend's butt is a pocket pussy, but in reality that would be a very, very dangerous thing to do, particularly if you've never had anal sex before.

Argh. How long will we have to wait before we can get real sex ed in schools so people won't turn to bile like this for their sex education?

JaclynF, I had never/don't remember seeing the term cisgender before. A quick google search has enlightened me. Thanks for turning me on to a great term!

You're right, JaneMinty, there's no need for me to make accusatory statements about your attitudes. You've put them out there in plain sight for everyone to see....You don't sound like a Republican. You just sound like somebody completely and totally lacking in any sense of empathy for those who are different from you...In short, JaneMinty, have a heart. You're not in anybody's shoes but your own, but it would do you good to have a little bit more empathy, especially for people who make bad choices.

Well Kimmy and Potato, if you say so, it must be true. Have you ever had friends who stay in abusive relationships? I have, and it's incredibly draining. I use a "three strikes and you're out" rule when it comes to friends and abusive partners. I just don't have the energy to keep counseling, dealing with late night emergency calls, and mediating fights at bars when they insist on staying with the person. So feel free to continue making assumptions about my character, but I'm not a goddamn therapist, and I have yet to take any Reiki training to stay grounded in such situations (if you don't, their negative energy is drawn into your core like a lightning rod). I made a decision last year to have minimal contact with such people, and I feel much better these days.

Come to think of it, I did have one potentially abusive boyfriend when I was 20. We were living together, and he put his fist through the wall during a fight. I left him. So there you have it.

Sometimes we fall in love with bad people, and literally cannot see that they are bad for us.

I thought they were still confirming Chris Noth's participation in the SATC movie...you have a script?? ;)

Your jaw is tired, he likes it, you decide to bear it and keep going. A fair amount of sex is like that.

Well now, I've never gone down on a girl (not my thing), but I try to have empathy for a dude doing so. I'll just imagine there's a different set of criteria that could make one just as tired. The burden isn't necessarily always on the woman (or at least this is preventable). Sometimes a simple "your turn!" is all that's needed to nudge him in the right direction (and don't forget "69")!

Women who don't like anal should not imply that guys who ask for anal are gay or should become gay. That's playing to homophobia. Just turn them down.

I think this is related to the "find a boyfriend" comment that insulted a few people. You're absolutely right that it shouldn't be used towards assholes, but again there's sometimes a line between the pressuring asshole, and one who asks more than once. Bedroom vernacular doesn't always translate to written word, but sometimes that kind of thing will come out of your mouth. It's not meant to "frighten" anyone about gay men, and usually follows your 1st response of, "great! so that means we're going to Babeland to buy you a dildo so we can BOTH have anal sex?" and he furrows his brow.

It's easy to be politically correct in theory, but this is not always translated effectively in an intimate situation. I do know that, in conversations with gay male friends about the hetero anal issue, the gay man's response is often a roll of the eyes and something very related to, "tell him to get a boyfriend" if pressure is involved.

But, like I said, no one has really mentioned anal to me in the last 7 or so years, except for one guy: he mentioned right away that he would never ask a girl for anal, because of his size. I thought it was pretty fair, especially because he was...right.

Jen, I truly didn't mean to offend you with that. I do want to ask you a question, though. Bisexual discrimination aside (which I do know plenty about), don't you still technically have a little more of a selection than most of us who are wired for one or the other? By numbers alone, this should be true, yes?

But yeah, I have enough lesbian friends who will confirm that chicks aren't much easier in that dept.

I think if anyone demanded anything from me I'd be out the door so fast he wouldn't know what hit him. (Though chances are it'd be me that hit him)

I'm pretty sure if anyone felt they were allowed to DEMAND any kind of sex from me, I'd be out the door with his severed nutsack in my hand.

My SO just said something so off the wall with respect to this article that I haven't decided whether to hit him or kiss him.

Ummm... Am I the only one who is made to feel uncomfortable by comments like this? It really doesn't matter what anyone has said, or the genders of the people involved. There is never any excuse for domestic violence. EVER.

I asked my wife if she'd be interested in anal sex. She said, "sure, go get a wet bar of soap and I'll shove it up your ass".

...that's an oldie but a goodie.

Seriously though: The picture of the choo choo train is innocent enough--actually quite cute and nicely arranged and shot. As I'm not a 20-year old, nor a moron, so I've never read Details. Don't plan on it. For the record, my wife can demand any nasty damn thing she wants---I'm her freak ya'

I asked my wife if she'd be interested in anal sex. She said, "sure, go get a wet bar of soap and I'll shove it up your ass".

...that's an oldie but a goodie.

Seriously though: The picture of the choo choo train is innocent enough--actually quite cute, nicely arranged and shot photo. As I'm not a 20-year old, nor a moron, I've never read Details. Don't plan on it. For the record, my wife can demand any nasty damn thing she wants---I'm her freak ya!

"And a feminist bar would be awesome, but you know it'd be packed with nothing but dudes just trying to get a taste of that sweet, liberated, feminist ass."
Ha ha, I'm sorry but the first time I read this I got really excited for these feminist bars to pop up... then I realized that it was probably not meant that way, and thinking that there were men out there lining up to find us feminist females is probably a little out there. I was stuck thinking about sex and TheLawFairy's post about not being able to find feminist men. Ditto. Where are they!?

Everything I wanted to say has been well summed up. The article was disgusting. Anal sex is not.

I'd like to give props to Thomas for the lesson, too, and a resounding "yes!" to the "raise our boys" comment. I'm way over on the enjoy it side of the argument. But, ponies and rainbows, I had the same reaction as you... better hold out so he doesn't think I'm disgusting, next time. Sheesh.

"However, the fact that most men are hetero HARDLY means I've got this huge actual dating pool. I'd wager my dating pool is just as tiny as many lesbians', since even regular plain old male het shit, I just can't handle."

I'm so tired of straight women who say shit like this. Lesbians aren't any better than straight men as a whole. A relationship between two women can be as draining, confusing, and trapping as a bad relationship between opposite sexes (or genders). Law Fairy, you say your dating pool gets smaller because of asshole guys. Well, my (alleged) "3.5%" gets smaller because of asshole women. My ex used to pressure me into sex when I didn't want to, even after I specifically asked her to stop and expressed my lack of comfort. It sucked, and it wasn't any better because she was a woman. As a society we let sexual stereotypes decide how women/men should act in our own minds. Lesbians are people just like straight men or gay men or straight women, and like all of those groups, a lot of them suck. So seriously, Law Fairy and other straight girls who "hehehe!!! made out with my best friend at a bar once!!! the guys loved it!!!": come talk to me about how badly you want to be a dyke after you come out to your parents or grandparents, or when you get turned down for a job because your potential boss is a raging homophobe.

As for anal sex, the homophobic and generally ignorant comments have been addressed. I think Law Fairy's comments about women's vagina being the center of pleasure is too simple. The ass is a joyous thing, even without full or partial penetration. It's a wonderful addition to vaginal play, and for some women, like me, it can induce orgasms all on its own. To each his own, let's stop attacking and stick to the educating so many people have done on this thread. To those educators, thank you. Anal sex should never ever hurt!!!

I've always said if I were ever to date a boy, I'd have to fuck him in the ass with a strap-on to be comfortable with the het thing.

Lol, Elise, I actually had a similar thought, rather that they're trying to convince women to never have anal sex. I've never had it, but I've sometimes thought it might be fun to try...However, reading this article makes me really, really reconsider doing it.

I have trouble even understanding the mindspace one has to be in to even make "demanding" any form of sex a potentially acceptable proposition (so to speak). Perhaps my extremely positive (and even more extremely limited) sexual experience has made me a bit naive, but I had always understood the whole point of sex to be to derive pleasure from giving pleasure. If one has to go so far as to "demand" a certain sexual act, it would seem rather antithetical to the whole point, or indicative that the person posing the question sees a different point in sex altogether.

fwf, The Law Fairy didn't say that women's "center of pleasure" was located in our vaginas. She said that the G-spot was. Which it is. Nor did she ever say any version of "hehehe!!! made out with my best friend at a bar once!!! the guys loved it!!!" She's explained why she said what she did, and not once did those words or that particularly shallow sentiment cross her keyboard.

This is off topic but I'll play one more time-

JaneMinty- "Jen, I truly didn't mean to offend you with that. I do want to ask you a question, though. Bisexual discrimination aside (which I do know plenty about), don't you still technically have a little more of a selection than most of us who are wired for one or the other? By numbers alone, this should be true, yes?"

Maybe. Strictly by numbers, if the world was divided into straight men and straight women, and then non-het women and non-het men, and lets say the straights were each 45% of the world, and the non-hets were 5% each (these are random example numbers, not necessarily true to life). Bi women could have the 45% of the world (straight men) and maybe 5% of the world that are men and women that are bi or pansexual or queer. That would leave bi people with maybe 50% of the world to date. Straight women have 45% (the straight men). 45% verses 50%, once you remove all the people that clash with your personality or lifestyle or location and removing all the people who wouldn't date a bi off the bat, is about equal. This isn't an exact figure, but its not like I can date straight women, gay men, or anyone else who doesn't want to date a bi woman.

The numbers are much worse for women solely interested in women, of course.

"The normalisation of anal sex is just another part of the whole pornogrification of society."

I don't think so, Cruella. Pornography, like any other medium for people's fantasies, is primarily a reflection of society. (I know it is also a reinforcement of social mores, that's secondary.) Ever since western society became open about discussing sex, there have been sexual "trends". Every ten years or so there's something that is first considered scandalous, then becomes the thing that everyone must try, then is considered normal by everyone but Fundies. Twenty or so years ago it was oral sex; then it was threesomes; now it's anal.

Before these trends? Well, you had men who would pressure women into having vaginal sex without any regard to her comfort, brag about it to other men, and then dump her later for being "dirty". This goes at least as far back as the Middle Ages. Does this mean that vaginal sex is inherently degrading? Of course not.

All this article really shows us is that a lot of men still have horribly messed up attitudes about sex. Sad, but nothing new.

I still very much don't like the idea of telling a guy who wants anal-- even if he is being a jerk about it-- to "get a boyfriend".

It not only panders to homophobia-- though it does do that-- but it misses the point. "No" is supposed to mean "no", whether we are talking about anal sex, vaginal sex, oral sex, or even simple foreplay.

But the desire to have anal sex with a woman has nothing to do with the desire to have anal sex with a man. Really, there's nothing different, in substance, between a woman who concludes that her boyfriend is gay because he asks for anal and a woman who concludes that her boyfriend is gay because he wants her to use a dildo on him. The act isn't "gay" if it is done by two people of opposite gender, period.

Thus, the riposte, which seems clever, is in fact simply a throwback to very retrograde notions of sexuality.

Further, when you unpack it, I think there's another pernicious premise lurking in here. The assumption that he wants anal because your vagina isn't good enough for him is wrong, wrong, wrong. He wants anal because he is into having penetrative anal sex with women. That is his thing. He may have lousy reasons for it (as noted in the Details article), and he may be a jerk about it (as also noteed in the Details article), but that doesn't mean the sexual fetish isn't real. The point is, even among those juveniles quoted by Details, I see no evidence that they don't have lots of fun having vaginal intercourse. They just are into anal for various reasons.

The reason why thinking otherwise is pernicious for women is because I could see a less secure female who turned down a couple of requests for anal start to think that her vagina wasn't good enough for them. Those sorts of feelings are poisonous and could lead to all sorts of bad outcomes.

It's better to look at the problem as follows: if he asks you for anal, it's because he enjoys it. If you aren't into anal and he pressures you to have it, he's a jerk and you should dump him. Under no circumstances should the thought that either he is "gay" or that your vagina isn't "good enough" for him ever enter the picture.

I’m getting tired of hearing singles say that there are no nice guys/girls out there in the dating pool. In an urban environment where there are thousands if not millions of singles, there must be some nice people. They can’t all be assholes. My logic is flawless, yes? But seriously, the problem with the dating arena is that it all too often is directly linked to bars which seem to attract an overabundance of idiots.

“...and thinking that there were men out there lining up to find us feminist females is probably a little out there. I was stuck thinking about sex and TheLawFairy's post about not being able to find feminist men. Ditto. Where are they!?�

As a straight feminist man, I'm surprised after all these years just how few feminist men there are. I'm very saddened that, for example, on the very liberal community blog I'm involved with, I'm often ridiculed by other men for my outspoken feminism and feminist positions. It's still not socially acceptable to be a feminist male. We're true oddities, it sometimes seems.

Anyway, I'm having trouble finding feminist women. Partly it's my age: I'm 42. And partly it's that I live in a not-very-liberal (but thankfully not that conservative, either, as southwestern cities go) mid-size southwestern city. When I use the online personals, the vast majority of women have profiles that say things like "I'm looking for a man who knows how to treat me like a lady".

And then also, I'd also just like to have sex once-in-awhile, too, and that's hard to find. My best friend is a gay man, and I've always been envious that he can (and does) have sex at the drop of a hat. But I've always, always tempered that envy with the realization that that's one benefit of being a gay male among a countless list of costs in a homophobic society. I don't know that being lesbian would be so much better even if there were just as many feminist lesbians available as there are feminist men.

Oh, by the way, a good portion of the lesbians I've known weren't at all feminists. Gay people have all sorts of politics. They all understand persecution. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean they will all have the same political and personal response to it.

Thomas and D.E. have said most of what I might say about the anal sex subject as a man. I'm pretty straight (I've tried gay sex three times spread over many years and have concluded that it just doesn't do anything for me) but I've tried being on the receiving side of anal sex with my last SO. And we tried anal, too, mostly because she was very interested in it. I'm a bit squeamish about the body fluids part of it and have otherwise have never felt it to be that erotically exciting to me. Other people do. I don't know why, I'm not going to speculate why, and I think people should be allowed to have whatever kind of sex they want to have without being judged by other people for their choices.

I will say, however, that the women that feel sure that it could not possibly be anything other than painful for them are probably underestimating just how, um, stretchable the rectum really is. It's really not that different from the vagina. Especially with lots of lube, and over time, it'll stretch just as amazingly open as a vagina will.

It's also worth noting that vaginal intercourse can be very painful for many women. Some women just have naturally small vaginas. Others have vaginismus. The point is that it's wrong to make strong generalizations about comfort and discomfort for all people.

Sometimes I need to remind myself of the tag line here at the bottom of the page: by and for young feminists. Most of the threads reveal, for all the sophistication many commenters have about sex issues and such, nevertheless a limited actual experience. The biggest thing is not to generalize based mostly upon one own experience. Whether that be about sex or about feminism or about what it's like being gay.

Finally, the history of the way that women have been treated in the bedroom makes the subject difficult, but in a healthy and respectful relationship, both partners will to some degree accommodate the other's sexual desires. The problem, of course, is that it has been, and still is, usually the woman who accommodates the man rather than being equal or the reverse. Nevertheless, as feminists, we should strive for healthy, equal, and respectful relationships where it is right to accommodate your partner in something that means a lot to them that maybe you don't enjoy so much. That's true in and out of the bedroom. A great example in the bedroom is cunnilingus, which most women enjoy a great deal and most men don't do for their partners nearly as often as they should. Why? Because a lot of men don't intrinsically get sexual pleasure out of it (I do, but many don't) just like a lot of women don't intrinsically get pleasure from fellatio. Sadly, though, far more women are willing to do fellatio than men are willing to do cunnilingus. The answer isn't for everyone to never do anything that they don't enjoy doing and to walk out the door the second time their partner asks them to so something they don't really enjoy. The answer is for more partners to learn to think of sex as something that's as much a giving activity as it is anything else. Men much more than women need to learn this lesson, of course, but we should all try to remember it. A relationship and sex is about doing things for each other.

Oh, a clarification. I wrote:

“'m pretty straight....but I've tried being on the receiving side of anal sex with my last SO�

I didn't mean that to imply that anal sex was "gay". Just that, as a straight man, I've not taken it for granted that it's part of my sex life, as many bi or gay men do. In fact, that wasn't involved in any of the gay sex I tried. Put another way, straight men really do engage in, and enjoy, receiving anal sex.

I found it mostly awkward and the dildo didn't really stimulate my prostate. I have otherwise had my prostate stimulated right before orgasm, and it is, in fact, a crazy good orgasm. My partner found the role-reversal fun and interesting, but the positioning of the strap-on didn't really get her off, either. So it was interesting, and very erotic in an atmospheric sort of way, but not so specifically stimulating that we tried it again.

Anyway, I also think that gay sex and gay love are primarily about gay sex qua gay sex and gay love qua gay love. That is to say, there's no activity that is inherently gay or straight in itself. I did enjoy going down on a man, I guess because I have a bit of an oral fixation. It was a fun thing to do. But it was fun because of just what it was, not (to me) specifically because I was having sex with a man.

The beauty of anal sex from an analysis point of view is that the anatomy is the same. It shouldn't matter whether it's a man or a woman on the receiving end. Or, for that matter, on the penetrating end. Yet we overload the experience with all these sexual orientation sensibilities. That someone would say that it doesn't make sense for a woman to have anal sex because she has a vagina or that a man who wants anal sex should do it with another man is exhibiting how much we think about these things in a context that, really, doesn't make sense.

Too much to read everything after a way-too-long day at work, but I did want to follow up with JLP: thanks for taking the time to help me sort of hammer out my thoughts on the lesbian-wish thing. You were right to call me on my remark, which was unfairly flip, so thanks for listening to my explanation of my thinking behind it :)

As for the feminist bar, we are SO doing that :D

It is ok if you are a misogynist imam pig(pleonasm) like Khomeiny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoJzzz9QAAY&mode=related&search=

Like xianity and judaism, islam was invented by males, calling them "men" is too complimentary. There is nothing for women in these religions and no woman should participate in them.

Now that I'm a little more awake, I remember a few more folks I wanted to respond to.

TheSoyMilkConspiracy: My last two jobs have been at sex shops. :) I'm glad to say that the shop I'm currently at does not sell AnalEaze, and we explain to customers why that kind of product is a bad idea.

Thomas: If it works for you, cool, but I wouldn't recommend KY Jelly because it's a medical lube, not a sex lube; that's why it gets lumpy after repeated friction. There are some sexual lubricants, including anal-specific ones, that come in gel or cream format.

The Law Fairy, Keith Ellis, et al.: I wonder whether you'd have any luck putting up personals ads saying that you're specifically looking for a feminist man (or, in Keith's case, that you are one). You might still get some faux-feminists, but at least it would scare off the anti-feminists right away.

ShifterCat, experiences vary of course, but I've tried competitors and come back to KY for years.

I favor Astroglide for general lube purposes and for small-object anal. I like the silicone lubes, which are all thin, for high-friction penetration. However, for larger objects and slower insertions, the thicker jelly provides a buffer and therefore more comfort IME. I've tried Wet and some of the other sex-specific lubes, but there are a lot out there.

Individual experience being highly variable, people's mileage will vary. All we can really tell other people about lube selections is what is out there for each style of lube and what our experiences have been. Of the thick jelly-type lubes, what is your preference?

I see no evidence that they don't have lots of fun having vaginal intercourse.
Well, call me crazy, but the fact that they seem to do most things to impress their friends rather than because they enjoy it says to me that even if they do have fun engaging in vaginal sex, they probably have a lot less fun than they would if it were about pleasure rather than bragging rights.

ShifterCat, your comment makes me realize again just how contradictory the attitudes of guys like that are -- on the one hand, they think they're so bloody sexually liberated because they want to force their girlfriends into anal sex, but when you get right down to it, their thinking reflects a very Puritan, old-fashioned notion of sex as dirty and depraved. Hell, their comments and attitudes toward sex and women aren't too far off from the Old Testament...

I missed ALOT since yesterday evening, but I tried to run through these quickly and noticed mentioning of Naperville - don't live there, but i live close by. Anyways, try coming to Drinking Liberally! They hold a chapter in Naperville. I've only been able to go one time, two weeks ago, but it was so fun that I plan on making it a regular thing. Go to drinkingliberally.org to see when they meet; I'd love to meet the people on here sometime! Everyone should check out the site though, they have chapters all over. Anyways, that's just what i thought of when i saw you all talking about a feminist bar in the area...this is at least a liberal get together. Ciao!

I thought I'd chime in re: finding a feminist mate via online personal ads--I've tried several singles sites and I always specifically state that I'm a feminist looking for another feminist, and so far...el nada. Even the ones aimed at other women aren't getting any responses, which I guess proves the not-all-lesbians-are-feminists point.

Of course, I'm also a big geek with weird tastes, so I suppose that might be scaring them off. Or maybe they think I'm ugly like a troll-baby, since I photograph really badly. Who the hell knows?
It might still work for someone else...

WTF. I never thought I'd say this but I'm now wishing we we're back to the days when the ultimate male fantasy/ bragging rights came from having a threesome.

Why has this thread become a forum for singles wanting dates?

Oy ve. There're some really interesting mental hijinks going on here.
Yes, pressuring a partner for anything sexual is grounds for immediate and complete dismissal and revocation of partner rights. Period. Asking, discussing, exploring, fine. Pressure=no. There's nothing mutual or respectful about pressure.

There's no mileage in the discussion of who is and is not 'supposed' to enjoy having their genetalia stimulated. We all have some understanding of how sensitive tissues work. Response is biological and psychological, not political. Homosexual stereotyping and pigeonholing of sexuality is not really something I'd expect to see here. It's demeaning, assumptive and alienating, and promotes the same kind of crap that we're trying to escape. Civil rights means respect. Let's not be assholes. Particularly ignorant assholes.

The things that bother me about the picture are the lack of any part of the body other than the buttocks, and the inaccurate angle on the entrance. The latter, due to the promotion of MORE ingnorance than even the article can boast, and the former because it again diminishes the (in this case SPECIFICALLY female) partner as a prop.

'Details' might be an argument in favour for the realdolls. The people who trust this rag should be prevented from acting on their 'knowledge'.

Bernarda, Actually, there is a great deal of conflict and misinformation about islamic roles of women. My mum was muslim, had her phd, and was an independent woman for most of her life. Same goes for most of my family, including those currently living in the mid and near east. There are huge differences between tribal influenced cultures and fanaticism/extremists and what real moderates and liberals beleive. All of abrahamic religion is like that. Fanaticism and conservatism is ugly, no matter what group it's from.

"...when you get right down to it, their thinking reflects a very Puritan, old-fashioned notion of sex as dirty and depraved. Hell, their comments and attitudes toward sex and women aren't too far off from the Old Testament..."

That's a really good summation, PoniesAndRainbows. I'm tempted to go and post it on the Details forums, but I don't much care for the idea of signing up with them.

"Of the thick jelly-type lubes, what is your preference?"

Heh. I'm afraid I actually prefer the thinner lubes, Thomas, so I can't speak from personal experience here. :) But I've gotten good customer feedback about the ForPlay DeLuxe cream and gel.

"Fanaticism and conservatism is ugly, no matter what group it's from."

WORD, Perkyshai. :-)

No one group has the monopoly on bigotry/misogyny/intolerance/ick-ness, nor is any group entirely free of it, either. Even here, in this forum of liberated, intelligent people there has been some remarks that could be seen as misinformed, or even homophobic. And miscommunications like that are largely inevitable, since nobody's perfect, and nobody understands absolutely everything.

The key for dealing with these comments is to keep talking, stay civil, and be receptive to different points of view. TLF and Jen's discussion in this thread is a wonderful and inspirig example os this... thanks guys -- err, gals, I mean! ^_^

JaneMinty,

I don't think I'm making assumptions about your overall character. I'm not telling you that you don't have a heart at all. I'm sure you do. You sound like an intelligent, thoughtful, and sensitive person. I'm not kissing your ass, but you do.

As to your question: Yes. Yes, I have had friends in abusive relationships; I've had several. I have one friend in particular who has had several all by herself. As a point of fact, my mother has been in one for over 15 years. I know how draining it is. I know how hard it is to mediate. I know how hard it is to be a therapist when you've got your own damn issues and your own damn life to lead. But what I realized -- speaking of taking personal responsibility -- is that I was taking on the role of the therapist. I took on the role of the person that people who were hurting could come to. They flocked to me, and I took my own advice very seriously. When they did not, I was mortally offended. After enough times of alienating people who already had enough shit in their lives as it was by telling them what to do and intervening when it wasn't my business, I got angry. I reached the same conclusion you did about minimal contact. I was in that phase for years, and it was good for me.

What I do now is a little bit different. I give my advice only when it's asked. When it is, I say something simple, short, and to the point, and I don't expect the person to change their life based on what I say to them. I have endless sympathy for them now, even though a long time ago, I couldn't and didn't.

Anyway, if you can't give them sympathy because of its draining effects on you, that's fine. I'm not sure I understood clearly enough what you were saying before, but I get you now. I don't think anyone's telling you you're a bad person because you feel the need to preserve your own energy. All of us need to do that. These people do deserve sympathy in the abstract, though. That's all I was saying in my last post.

I know firsthand how hard this is to do, and especially to do it right (in the way that makes you feel best, both about yourself and about the people you're dealing with). Best of luck.

Verv and Shifter,

It's funny, actually. I have tried putting in an online dating profile that I'm a feminist, and I still got responses -- but not from feminist men. Most of them had some variation on overly (i.e., uncomfortably) complimenting my physical attractiveness or making an offensive joke. Almost like the sexual harassment training effect, which still strikes me as one of the most annoying ironies of modern corporate life. (I'm talking about when you have sexual harassment training (um, "training" meaning telling you not to do it and explaining what to do if you're harassed at work) and suddenly people (almost ALWAYS men) think that the most hilarious and appropriate thing to do would be to sexually harass the women nearby because, hey, we just learned we're not supposed to do it, so now it's okay to joke about it, right? We learned! That's a defense against harassment claims!) GARGHAA.

Anyway. I suppose my problem might have been that I'm also attractive, upbeat, and funny in my profiles. Because everyone knows those things don't REALLY go with feminism :P

TLF & Vervain: Damn. It sounded like it was worth a try. :/

Verv and Shifter,

It's funny, actually. I have tried putting in an online dating profile that I'm a feminist, and I still got responses -- but not from feminist men. Most of them had some variation on overly (i.e., uncomfortably) complimenting my physical attractiveness or making an offensive joke.

It's late, so forgive me if this is garbled....

Have you tried listing qualities which feminist men possess, instead of merely stating that you are a feminist and hoping that it would attract feminist men?

That works well for something like religion, where people all assume that you would want someone of your religion.

For political/life views, however, you can't assume that all men who are attracted to feminist women are themselves feminist and good guys. State that you are looking for a man who believes in reproductive justice, social equaltiy, gay rights, etc. You'll eliminate the loaded term (Jessica's book can't change the world overnight) and instead focus on the core issues.

If you've tried this and it failed, ignore said advice. :) I say this from my own dating experience. It never helped to tell men that I am not into premarital sex, because I didn't get prudish guys; I got guys who all wanted to be Marco Polo. Once I started telling men, upfront, what I wanted from them (i.e. comfort in a relationship without sex), I started getting into better relationships. It's not because I found better guys*; I just wasted a lot less time because it became immediately apparent that they weren't worth my time.

You really do get two radically different sets of reactions. It's a guy thing that I can't explain well at 2 am.

*Nothing against men who want sexual relationships - just something against those who want them with a woman who doesn't.

Perkishai, notice that the main point of my post was the male religious hierarchy represented by pig Khomeiny.

That said, the abrahamic religions are all crap. Of course they are also based on previous beliefs. All religions are syncretic and they are all nonsense.

bernarda,

Your ability to logically detect the fact that all religions are nonsense and not be under the influence of something so obviously stupid must make you such a happy person. I can't imagine how full and colorful a life full of logical Truths with no spirituality must be, and the tolerance it must foster in you for people whose beliefs differ from your own.

One question, though: Why do you sound so angry?