Guess this one is making the rounds -- I just got it from my sister this week.

What I particularly love is the reason the letter gives for not hiring women: because women don't do those jobs! Well, DUH.

I think the term I'm looking for is "circular."

I saw this a few days ago and thought "what assholes" but it's also a product of the time, hopefully they've moved on.

Heh, I like how the letter-writer's signature is accompanied by a picture of the movie's bad guy. No kidding!

Circular reasoning indeed. Things may not be perfect now, but I'm still glad not to live in 1938.

That can't be real! The witch by the signature is too funny. Sad thought that it appears to be written by a woman.

I love the reasoning though:
We only have men doing the work now; therefore, only men can do the work. Brilliant! Of course, it makes perfect sense.

A. That's messed up.

B. I need cooler paper for my memos. That memo paper kicks ass.

I love how Snow White is up by the recipient's name, while the wicked witch is down by the author's name. "*Cackle cackle* Artistic talent is for BOYS, you ninny!" That's what the wicked witch would say.

I was going to say, "Does anyone else find the Snow White stationary disturbing?" but you beat me to it m!

My favorite line is: "Women do not do any of the creative work . . . as that work is performed entirely by young men." It's such blithe, blatant discrimination.

And what's with cartooning only being done by "young men"? And the inking done by "girls"? Is Disney, like, summer camp for high schoolers? Or does joining the team mean you never have to grow up, just like Peter Pan?

Maybe this helps explain how Disney got started on the whole "heroines that look like barbie dolls" thing

The important detail you are all missing is that Mary had to type her own damned letter. If a man had written this it would be signe "Big Important Man" and the MEC on the bottom left would be BIM:mec (Big Important Man: typed by mec, the not very important girl).

If you'd taken typing class in 1970 you'd know that ;-)

Is it bad that I find the bald-faced descrimination somewhat refreshing? I mean... at least they were bloody up front and honest about why they weren't going to hire her for the job to which she applied, and were bloody up front and honest about her prospects for the jobs to which she possibly could be hired?

Please dont' misunderstand me -- the blatant discrimination here is horrible, but hell, at least at that time they were honest about it... now you'd get some nebulously-worded letter about how, in spite of your qualifications, you're jsut not the right fit...

Also, I do feel the need to point out that the letter is dated June 7, 1938. While the Disney Company has some major problems today, you would never receive that kind of letter from them in current times ... unless you're asking to marry your homosexual partner in the Carnation Pavillion on Main Street during park operating hours...

It is true that this letter is an artifact from another time. But it is sad to see it all the same.

Is there a reason why the text of the link says "Disney suck*s*" (present tense) while referencing a letter from *1938?*

This is like saying IBM sucks because it sells to the Nazis, and you shouldn't buy anime or other products from Japan because the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor.

There may be modern reasons why Disney sucks. This letter is not one of them.

To Lee, re: blaming Disney now for something that happened in the past.

Who is blaming the current Disney corporation for this letter? I believe the post, and those who have responded to it, are merely trying to show it for what it is - a historical text displaying blatant sexism.

However, I think it is relevant to claim that this text is representative of the kind of mentality the company has long had toward women and minorities. Disney himself was a noted racist. Disneyland was established as a nostalgic white-man's dreams of what American life "should be" (aka, white, middle-class, homogenic and scarily clean). Disney films and products to this very day continue to traffic in rather blatant forms of sexism, racism, ethnocentrism and ableism (if you want some brilliant writing on this very issue, you might read some of Ariel Dorfman's work on Disney). While it isn't really fair to assume that this historic text represents the company's explicit mentality today, anyone with half a brain and a critical eye can look at what they still produce and see that such sentiments haven't gone away but have instead simply become subtly embedded throughout Disney's body of work. Though you may not get that letter today, young children are still being indoctrinated into a Disney-view of life that convinces little girls that they have to be "princesses" in order to be valuable human beings. How are the messages of Disney films really different in
their ultimate intent than that letter? The ideology behind each is the same.

And finally, I worked at Disney for 5 years. The company blows in more ways than you can imagine. So yes, Disney sucks. Pass it on.

Considering how that movie is functionally patriarchal propaganda, it's no wonder they didn't want any women on it. Probably thought they were spies.

Yeah, and Shakespeare sucks because he was sexist and supported patriarchy. Hell, he didn't even let women appear in his plays. What a sexist pig. I'm surprised he hasn't been totally banned from civilized discussion.

Right, because women aren't just, biologically speaking, physically frailer than men, we're dumber and not as creative either.

I am not surprised; what's in that letter is pretty ways found Disney's short cmuch embodied in every Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck cartoon ever made; Daisy and Minnie simpered and sighed and were pretty much nonentities.

I am not surprised; what's in that letter is pretty much embodied in every Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck cartoon ever made; Daisy and Minnie simpered and sighed and were nothing more than nonentities.

As the letter gets further in to the rejection, the subject moves from women to girls.

I wonder if this letter had been written say, 4 years later, whether it would have contained a different response.
Once women started to be "manpowered" in WWII, the correspondent might have had a better chance at getting a job...
I like to think of this young woman in Arkansas dreaming of moving to Hollywood in the 1930's, and then maybe getting her chance a few years later. I wonder what actually happened to her.

I didn't find it on snopes, but I have a really hard time believing this is a real letter. Not that people didn't think that way (or even that these mentalities are gone now). But even then, no one would phrase it as "the only work open to women...". Plus, the silliness of the witch at the bottom really gives it away.

We don't need a letter like this to prove that there's sexism from Disney (historical or otherwise).

I believe the letter is real and that even then people would talk openly about the "only work open to women." I was told things like that when I was a child--and i'm not THAT old LOL. My mother was a teacher, but she lost her job when she got married--not got pregnant, got married. that was the rule and everyone knew it and very few thought a thing about it. NEVER made sense to me.

Anorak--i, too, would love to know what became of the young woman from Arkansas.

Holy fucking shit. We women of today sometimes forget how bad it was back then.

This was during the Depression. Disney was being very progressive to let women have ANY jobs.

Really, the images should be reversed. The witch was creative and imaginative, while Snow White was a miniature housewife in Disney's version of the story.

Umm... is that signed by a woman? Mary? Hmm.. interesting. Though I'm sure she just typed up the letters or something. *rolls eyes*

How fitting that snow white and the witch-queen are on the letter (I know, it was probably the only Disney film that had yet been made). You know, since, as mentioned above, snow white was the sweet, naive, always-upbeat housewife and needed protection and the breath/kiss of life by men (dwarves included). And the witch, well, she was powerful, and thus murderously jealous and evil. The latter was a lesson to us all to be like the former, or else!

Last night while babysitting my cousin's daughter she decided she wanted to watch Peter Pan. Never before had I noticed what sort of messages are mixed in this story. Right at the get go Tinkerbell is examining the size of her hips in the mirror and shakes her head in disapproval. Later on when Captain Hook is talking about finding Peter's hide out he thinks to use Tinkerbell to tell him where Peter is because 'you can make a jealous woman do almost anything' or something that that effect about how jealous women are easily persuaded. I turned it off after she fell asleep but i'm sure there's more. Just thought i'd share since we're on the topic of disney.

Wasn't just Disney. At this time, Warner Brothers and MGM, to the best of my knowledge, had women (sorry, "girls," as they were known) doing the highly repetitive, non-creative inking and painting while the men did the more interesting animation work. I think WB had one "woman animator" but I can't recall for sure from my readings back when I wanted to be one myself.

Oh, and I seem to remember something about a character designer or background artist who was a woman during the '40s at Disney, but don't quote me on that.

It's always good to remember how much worse it was. While things today may not be perfect, at least no one can blatantly reject someone because "girls don't do that kind of work." At first I read this without looking at the date, and I was like "that's so illegal!" then I realized it was from 1938.

I agree with you Liza.

Speaking of Disney, I currently work on the Jungle Cruise attraction in the CA park - which not too long ago was solely operated by men. The sad part is that we female skippers often get pretty serious flack from guests because they "remember" when only men were allowed to be skippers and preferred those times.

I even had a guest once explain to me that letting women become Jungle skippers was what started to "ruin" Disneyland and that attraction specifically.

My daughter just graduated from college with a major in art and is trying to find work as an animator. Difficult as it is for her and other young women, I'd like to think that the industry has evolved since 1938. (It's interesting that the letter was signed by "Mary Cleane.")

Hey, give them a break! At least they discouraged her from picking up and moving to Hollywood with inking/painting stars in their eyes. Sigh.

Also, if Mary Cleane really existed, I'd be very surprised.

Ok, fess up, who let out the troll food?

Just to clarify - it's not that I doubt Disney had this policy about women and men's jobs. I'm sure they did, because I heard of it before, and it seems in line with people's thinking back then. Merely questioning this particular letter in no way invalidates any claims of Disney's sexism!

I'm just surprised at the exact wording of the letter. People may have verbally said things like that, but the writing seems more like something someone outside of Disney might say while reporting on their policy. It also seems like different statements pieced together.

Other reasons I doubt its authenticity: I find it very strange they used the animated characters on their formal letters. That seems a bit like something a more modern Disney might do, but odd for 1938. Plus, the paper itself doesn't look too aged.

I dunno - I could be completely wrong. I just don't like to be taken in by hoaxes (or let other people be fooled), so I'm more likely to be a skeptic about such things. If I turn out to be wrong, I still won't feel like I was wrong for questioning it.

Yeah...I haven't liked Disney since I saw Bambi when I was 4, but this letter doesn't look too real. I know too many people who could have come up with that in photoshop.

Well heck, here is the photo page if you want to comment and tell the guy you're skeptical of the letter's authenticity.

Forwarded the page to Snopes.

You just want to complain and play the victim.

You don't have to "play the victim" when you've been sufficiently victimized, marginalized and othered, Lee.

Though I bet it's hard to identify or empathize with us women when you're so busy drowning in your own privilege.

2. Some responses to Geena Davis' speech and to her ongoing work with the See Jane Foundation, which seeks to address gender stereotyping in animation, among other goals.

Could we trade Lee in for a concern troll? Those are at least coherent.

In the meantime, I'd propose we stop engaging him. His entire purpose here seems to be autoerotic thread derailment.

Don't feed the trolls!!!!!!!

This was the flickr caption. So she DID become an animator after all!

"This letter originally belonged to my grandmother. After she passed away we discovered it and were surprised at how well it was preserved for being nearly 70 years old. She eventually became an animator during WWII for the war effort.

The letter speaks for itself and it remarkable to note how times have changed since then."

Yeah, I saw that too Anne. I was stoked (that means happy in N.Z.)!
I feel really cool because I had hypothesised upthread that WWII might have changed things for her and it did!
I guess it's good that something cool came from the deaths of millions of people ;o)

Disney (as far as I know) is still homophobic and sexist (probably racist as well) in many of its policies - including their dress code and requirements for hire to even work at the parks. However, feminist that I am... when i went to Walt Disney World when i was 5 i was seduced entirely by the "magic" and haven't ever been able to grow out of it. ah to smoke and drink in the magic kingdom with hairy arm pits and legs... nothing better

Disney (as far as I know) is still homophobic and sexist (probably racist as well) in many of its policies - including their dress code and requirements for hire to even work at the parks. However, feminist that I am... when i went to Walt Disney World when i was 5 i was seduced entirely by the "magic" and haven't ever been able to grow out of it. ah to smoke and drink in the magic kingdom with hairy arm pits and legs... nothing better

mhothatch, I'm with you. I have a Disneyland annual passport and every time I go, I sneak in a bottle of Special "Gatorade."

You ain't ridden Space Mountain 'til you've done it drunk, far as I'm concerned.

Kate 21:
YOU HAVE MY DREAM JOB!

I have always, always, ALWAYS wanted to be a skipper on the Jungle Cruise at Disneyland and when I was a little girl I noticed that there were no women skippers...

And now there are! Yay! I am so jealous. :)

Good for you for keeping on despite flack from people. That is really stupid that people actually complain to you about that. People really need to enter the 21st century.

Sorry I didn't read the whole thread before responding..

As far as being "homophobic".. I thought Disneyland just recently included same sex marriages as being eligible for their "princess wedding" package, or what ever they call it.

And don't they actually support some other LGBT causes? Such as "Gay Days" and the like that ended up being protested by a lot of right wingers? I seem to recall Disney receiving quite a bit of flack for giving it's support to the gay community.

Let's see, slamming Disney for a letter written in 1938? Jeez, I think our time would be better spent organizing a boycott against Germany because of the terrible way that Mr. Hitler is treating the Jews.

Right. Because it's simply horrible for anyone to spend any time considering the recent history of sexism in this country. How dare we! We should be like goldfish, and have 5-second memories.

"You just want to complain and play the victim."

Or, maybe we want to gain encouragement about how far we've come. When progress is made very slowly, sometimes it seems like it's not being made at all. When we get frustrated by all the bad things we're currently facing, it's good to look back and see that they used to be even worse.

Women are given vast preferential treatment in the U.S. and to complain otherwise is just to appear greedy and desirous of a position of superiority over men.

You want stuff? Bust your ass 80 hours a week, shorten your lifespan 7 years and you'll get it. Just like men.

Tell you what, sweetie--let's swap! You can get paid 75% as much, but be expected to maintain a flawless appearance using products that cost 2x more. You can stand a very good chance of being raped at least once in your lifetime, and then watching your rapist go free because no matter what your circumstances, people will insist you "asked for it" or even willingly consented. You can endure groping and catcalls from people who think the fact that you exist in their line of sight makes you public property. You can bleed once a month for 5 days and spend the rest of the time worrying about whether the government will determine you don't deserve to have access to birth control or control over whether or not you become pregnant--and then when you do, you can deal with the fact that you're far more likely to be beaten or murdered by your lover because of it.

In exchange, I'll work 80 hours a week, shorten my lifespan by 7 years, get treated like an adult with agency, get paid more, and never have to worry that the government might make it illegal for me to use condoms or not be a father. Sounds like a good deal to me!

I know, I know, troll bait. I just couldn't resist.

As for Disney, I think they're pretty gay-friendly, if only to lure in the gay dollars. More disturbing are some of the other policies I've read about, such as their refusal to do background checks on employees (pedophiles really, really like to work in Disney parks) and not allowing EMTs, paramedics or emergency vehicles inside the parks, because it apparently "spoils the magic" for the other guests to hear sirens, etc. (it's just too bad for the guy having the heart attack who dies in the back of the unmarked Disney van while they wait for a break in the light parade) and various other really unsavory practices, all with $$$ at the bottom line.

If you're really interested: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895263874/ref=reg_hu-wl_item-added/103-3438076-3811039

If the letter had been introduced as "Disney Sucked" or "Disney's history of sexism" that would have been cool. But it's present-tense and thus, unfair.

ooh! it's not fair! boohoo! and women have everything handed to them on a silver platter and still they complain and dredge up stuff from the past to bitch about. LOL, the trolls are out.

Anne & anorak--yes! i'm so glad to know that she did fulfill her dream and talent.

And yes to EG and Vervain about the importance of knowing our history--it's good to know how much things have changed and to be aware of how some things have just gone underground so that the male privilege revealed in the letter and be defended.

is this for real?