I don't believe it. I really don't. She's hot! I can't imagine anyone thinking she isn't...

I am so lost..

But....but....but....

She's pretty! Beautifully proportioned, great skin... I don't get it.

And why would a woman agree to pose for an ad that's going to say bad things about her? And why do these yogurt people assume the know what all men like and will always like?

And why do I expect any kind of logic or rationality out of these people? *sigh*

What brand is it? Is it a local thing or is it one available in the U.S?
I must third the comment that she's gorgeous. I'm similarly proportioned & I wish I looked like her.
I guess it just proves that as a curvy feminist that my only prospect is to die alone & be eaten by my cats.

She's not even fat.

Most men would drool over that picture.

Count me as #4: she's gorgeous.

As for rationality: if you look that sexy, why would you want a man who doesn't think you're a babe?

She's totally sexy. I can't believe we're really supposed to find her repulsive.

That Brazilian yogurt is full of mashed Amazonian tree frogs anyway.

And why would a woman agree to pose for an ad that's going to say bad things about her?

Christ on a bike.

I'm going to run this past my Brazilian friend. As a lover of (many) and different kinds of women, and as one with Socialist leanings, I have a feeling about what he'll say, but I'd like to get his thoughts on Brazilian society and what they'd generally think about this ad.

Seriously, I saw this the other day and it is infuriating! What a dickheaded ad campaign. It's ads like this that make it really difficult to reconcile trying to eat healthily with my feminism. I want to feel good about myself and my body, and be healthy, but I hate feeling like I'm responding to this sort of drivel.

Wow, that's what my body looks like, minus the obviously digitally added glowing skin. Good to know that I'm disgusting! I better buy some yogurt!

I'm going to show this to my husband when he gets home. I have a feeling that he'll think she's sexy. And if he doesn't, I know for a fact that he won't think she's gross.

I'm drooling over her picture. Count me in as number 5. The woman has one of the most beautiful (confident looking) smiles I have ever seen (and I like her hourglass shape from her shoulders to her thighs).

It's a shame to (that it's a sexist advertisement), because my wife and I eat yogurt every morning, because it helps us with our stomach ailments.

Another case of bad advertising.

Don't worry Honey, no matter how good this anti-yogurt woman looks, nothing will take my heart away from you (and there are non-sexist brands of yogurt out there).

Bah, I can't remember the last time I was as angry as I am right now. Who the f**k thought this was advertising and witty? Can anyone find the company, and what else they make? There must be something I can boycott...

Once again, through sheer stupidity, the agents of the patriarchy shoot themselves in the foot. This woman is conventionally attractive and of a moderate build, certainly not fat. They have unintentionally created an image that will normalize more typical female bodies as sexually attractive. Plus, unlike the Mena Suvari character in the original, this woman looks like an adult.

Patriarchy must survive by sheer mass and pervasivness; they certainly don't have rocket scientists behind their promotional efforts.

ps S_B_J, it sounds to me like you're headed right at Brazil's internal race and class issues. Let us know what your friend says; I'm interested to hear who this argument is supposed to work on.

Are you effing kidding me? She's GORGEOUS!

Fuck you, Brazilian yogurt. I will not be shamed into dieting. I'm a size 14 and, shockingly enough, I don't seem to have that hard a time finding people who are attracted to me.

Plus, newsflash: men are not actually all the same. Some of them get genuinely hot for women who are bigger than size 6. Some of them even prefer women who are bigger than size 6.

Again I say: fuck you, Brazilian yogurt. May the wankers responsible for this ad lose their ability to ever maintain an erection, no matter how skinny and available the women in their lives are.

Well, maybe having rose petals for nipples is a twinge weird, but she's beautiful nontheless. lol

Sad to say that this would probably be an effective marketing strategy (at least in "my" bubble of the world). I think she's beautiful. And, while I'd never speak for someone, I have a feeling my lesbian/ bi friends would love to get with that. I'm not too sure about my male friends, though.*

* Only a theory as to what my friends may possibly think. No one else is represented. ^^

Dammit. That's the yogurt brand I eat! What the fuck were they thinking?

Oh, and for some reason my husband is convinced the message of the ad is that you shouldn't care what men think. Not sure why, but I just thought I'd share that.

un.fucking.believable.

i know i'm just re-iterating what everyone else had said, but christ, she's totally a hottie. and she's not fat. she's not even chubby.

i don't even know what to think right now.

also, and this totally could just be me, but the neck looks a little awkward. like bad photoshop awkward. like maybe the head and the body are too different people? i could just be hallucinating because i've been staring at a computer all day.

also...that would make it more fucked up. and i could just be seeing things cause i'm so blown away.

Yeah. Someone posted this in the feminist community of LiveJournal, and I felt the same way. On top of using a women's body to market a product, they are doing it in such a ridiculous way, such a backwards way. All the wrong ways. There is nothing correct about this advertisement, except my impending desire to go romping around in rose petals with that fat girl.

Yeah, this woman is much more attractive than Mena Suvari was in "American Beauty," not that Mena Suvari wasn't cute, because she was, but it was inappropriate for her to be displayed as she was in the father's imagination (which was actually the point that was being made in "American Beauty"). There is nothing inappropriate about this Bazillion beauty, in fact she easily makes an ideal poster woman for "healthy" beauty.

I think the particularly stupid thing about the ad is the line,"Men's preference will never change." Because, as we all know, men's preferences HAVE changed- or more correctly, the societal ideal that dictates men's preferences. A few hundred years ago, she would be the ideal body type.
Yep. Fucked up ad.

Just a little random... but is anyone else confused as to why her naval would be so risque that it would need to be covered up with all-so-subtly placed rose petals? Heh?

That is just fucking sad. What about the women who ARE that size who already buy the products in order to eat healthy/lose some weight (that they might not necessarily need to lose). I would feel duly insulted if I were that customer. It's like they're directly telling you that you're ugly and you need to buy more of our product in order to not be. Gawd, they suck.

I second that, erin! And further, men's preferences are VARIED - over time, and, um, right this minute! Just like women's are... if they weren't, we'd all be alone...

obviously, i completely agree with everything mentioned above. however, i think this message is also really fucked up because now women and girls have an example of what not to look like. we are bombarded and inundated with specifc images of who we should look like and how we should look, but now we are given a particular definition of what not to look like.
i think this images also modifies conventional representations of "fat" people (which are always disparaging) because we are looking at an image that is extremely sexual. usually i see renderings of fat people as asexual or de-sexualized, so the attempt on this "fat" model's part appear sexy is intended as a joke.


fucked up.

obviously, i completely agree with everything mentioned above. however, i think this message is also really fucked up because now women and girls have an example of what not to look like. we are bombarded and inundated with specifc images of who we should look like and how we should look, but now we are given a particular definition of what not to look like.
this image also breaks away from conventional representations of "fat" people (which are always disparaging) because we are looking at an image that is extremely sexual. usually, renderings of fat people are asexual or de-sexualized, so the attempt on this "fat" model's part to appear sexy is intended as a joke, aka, failure. like, who is she trying to fool?


fucked up.

obviously, i completely agree with everything mentioned above. however, i think this message is also really fucked up because now women and girls have an example of what not to look like. we are bombarded and inundated with specifc images of who we should look like and how we should look, but now we are given a particular definition of what not to look like.
this image also breaks away from conventional representations of "fat" people (which are always disparaging) because we are looking at an image that is extremely sexual. usually, renderings of fat people are asexual or de-sexualized, so the attempt on this "fat" model's part to appear sexy is intended as a joke, aka, failure. like, who is she trying to fool?


fucked up.

my wife and I eat yogurt every morning, because it helps us with our stomach ailments.

Thank you for reminding me. That's why my GI tract is such a cluster-cheney right now -- I'm overdue to for (soy, since I'm milk allergic) yogurt or real pickles or something like that. I was wondering what was going on that I have sores in my mouth, my tummy is about to explode, etc.

I was afraid I've developed a new food allergy. But yup -- it's about time to have some more bacteria in me.

Anyway, now that I've said so much about disgusting bodily functions, I'll change gears ... yes. She's hawt. Beyond hawt.

I might be biased, though; my fiancee is similarly proportioned to her.

I would eat that yogurt if the ad didn't shoot that woman down. She's hot!

She's far too digitally-imaged for comments on her appearance to be relevant. That's not "great skin" that's pure airbrushing. Not. real.

Also? Not the point! Let's say she was five times heavier and was photographed in harsh lighting with no make-up or airbrushing--would that make this ad even a little acceptable? NO.

url for the ad agency responsible:

http://www.salleschemistri.com.br/

Fuck you, Brazilian yougurt. Fuck your beauty standards; frankly, that women is GOREGEOUS. I am a size twelve and unashamed. I don't understand why no one seems to understand that women can be full-figured and curvy and goregeous. ( I actually think she's way more beautiful than most cover girls; I wouldn't be afraid of impaling myself on one of her bones. :)

I mean, this is one of those instances in which you think, "I must be crazy if people find her 'disgusting.'" Perhaps I really am out of touch.

Funny thing about body image and what men "supposedly" think...I decorate cakes as a hobby. Sometimes I'll spend days on a project. When I'm finished, there are inevitably some minor flaws that upset me personally. So, I'll deliver the cake to the bar or wherever, and these flaws still jump out at me, and I'll curse myself for fucking up. Then I'll remove the cake from the box, and everyone freaks the fuck out, screaming, "CAAAAKE!!!" All they see is sugar and colors, no flaws.

This is similar to getting naked for a guy...you might see come cellulite, or extra flab on the top of your hips, but any normal red-blooded guy is like, "AGGHHHH NAKED GIRL" upon sight. And boobs? Sure, yours might be too big/small/saggy/sharp/puffy but he just sees BOOBIES.

So I guess that would put things in perspective as far as who would OK this campaign. And, there's a good chance it was a woman who did so!

This ad makes me groan in disgust. People wondering why eating disorders are so prevalent need look no further than media like this. It sickens me to know that people are literally putting money into their pockets as a direct result of insulting and dehumanizing others.

And why would a woman agree to pose for an ad that's going to say bad things about her?

The same reason some women do pornography: $$$

This proves to me that the most important vote is where I spend my money. It sure won't be on yogurts like this! Or Walmart, or Sam's Club! If women don't buy their stuff, they will go out of business for sure.

As my husband said when he saw the pic (sans the caption) "damn thats hot."

After he saw the caption he said "and the ones who designed the ad are what? attracted to boxes of toothpicks?"

My setiments exactly. Even as airbrushed as her skin is, she looks happy, confident. THAT is attractiveness!

I'd hit that.

And I'd lick the yoghurt off 'er.

In a totally non-sexist way, of course.

I am also on board the angry and confused train on this one. She is not fat or disgusting in any way, I didn't even realize that was the intent until I read the words below it. They are contradicting themselves too since this was not supposed to be a positive scene in American Beauty at all. Maybe it is targeted towards the people who would have totally missed any meaning behind that film?

The Silhouette yogurt commercials are an annoyance as well, have you seen those? You are supposed to be as thin as your silhouette? Huh? At what time day?

I am so sick and tired of thinness being portrayed as the ultimate goal. There is so much more to beauty than that. I think I'll go have some ice cream and forget this silliness...well, for now...I think it inspired my next painting.

The thing about the "men’s preference" tagline that pisses me off, as it always does, is the assumption that every aesthetic desicion a woman makes for herself (what to wear, how to eat, how much musculature to try to develop at the gym) is done to satisfy men. I watch my weight because I know what weight is comfortable for me. I work out because I prefer to be strong and healthy and I want to like what I see when I look in the mirror. I wear cute sweaters because I damn well feel like it. The last thing that comes to mind when I make any of these decisions is what men will think of them.

I would like to take a moment to point out that the Brazilians stole this image from the 1999 film American Beauty. It was Mena Suvari in the original. Surely others must have seen the film? The pic of the sexy female midriff on the movie trailers would look good on the cover of a book.

It's no surprise that this is coming from Brazil, land of cosmetic surgery tourism. Even dogs get facelifts there.

We know return you to your regular kvetching.

I would like to take a moment to point out that the Brazilians stole this image from the 1999 film American Beauty. It was Mena Suvari in the original. Surely others must have seen the film? The pic of the sexy female midriff on the movie trailers would look good on the cover of a book.

It's no surprise that this is coming from Brazil, land of cosmetic surgery tourism. Even dogs get facelifts there.

We know return you to your regular kvetching.

"But....but....but....

"She's pretty! Beautifully proportioned, great skin... I don't get it."

Yeah. I mean, it would take me thousands of dollars in laser treatment to have skin as smooth as hers.

work out because I prefer to be strong and healthy and I want to like what I see when I look in the mirror.

I work out, in part, so I could kick someone's ass if need be. I have no problem with men knowing this. Does that count as a male-centered decision? :)

I apologize to all Brazilians. I hadn't noticed that I had used the term "bazillion," which I had not known was even a word, in my comment on this string. My spell checker corrected my writing to show the word "Bazillion," and I had not caught it till hours after I had posted my comment.

Yeah I feel like Cheney has been running my IG tract as well, in fact my stomach ailments started shortly after Bush was handed the 2000 election in a 5-4 Supreme Court decision. I have found that yogurt and soy milks helps, but I think a Senator Clinton or Senator Obama victory in November of 2008 will help a lot more.

Jane Minty, I love this:

>So, I'll deliver the cake to the bar or wherever, and these flaws still jump out at me, and I'll curse myself for fucking up. Then I'll remove the cake from the box, and everyone freaks the fuck out, screaming, "CAAAAKE!!!" All they see is sugar and colors, no flaws. This is similar to getting naked for a guy...you might see come cellulite, or extra flab on the top of your hips, but any normal red-blooded guy is like, "AGGHHHH NAKED GIRL" upon sight. And boobs? Sure, yours might be too big/small/saggy/sharp/puffy but he just sees BOOBIES.

I came to that same realization my first year in college, when I was sitting around in a room full of stunning young women all bitching about how much they hated their naked bodies and how they didn't want to keep the lights on when they were having sex, because what if their boyfriends thought their asses/thighs/bellies/etc. were too fat? It dawned on me right then -- they *were* beautiful, their boyfriends *thought* they were beautiful, and the worry about what the men would think about their thighs was all about social/cultural conditioning, not at all about their boyfriends' actual responses. I not only saw how destructive and irrational that way of thinking was, I also made a decision then and there that I would accept my body no matter what, "flaws" and flab and all, and that I'd always remember that if I was going to have sex with anyone, he'd not be someone who'd think "Man, that's too much cellulite" - he's be someone who'd think, "Yay! She's naked! Oh, lucky day!"

I'm a size 10/12, in fact I kinda have the same shape as the woman in the "fat" pic above, but no guy has ever expressed anything other than gratitude and, as you say, Jane, ""AGGHHHH NAKED GIRL"

"I work out, in part, so I could kick someone's ass if need be. I have no problem with men knowing this. Does that count as a male-centered decision? :)"

No that qualifies you as "Bad Ass Chick." I can't speak for all men, but I like that (my wife is very athletic and my daughter studies Karate). For the record oenophile, I was personally against ignoring you. I may disagree with you, but I still like your comments (even though they are often long).

What really bothers me, as usual, is the heterosexism of this ad. It assumes every woman is trying to attract men. Randomish rant: I was at the market today and saw an always-classy Cosmo on the rack with this cover story: "What Even Experienced Girls Forget to do in Bed." I perused the article and it basically says you should initiate sex, make him feel like he's manly, and moan/sigh a lot so he knows he's really good in bed. That's sad. And degrading. Everything is about pleasing men on this stupid planet.

In terms of this girl's body, she is slammin'. My ex-girlfriend had a body like that and I'd get horny every time I looked at her. And SHE certainly never judged my body, whether I ate light yogurt or not. She loved my pouchy stomach, flabby arms and abundance of stretch marks. Because women are awesome like that.

Basically this ad says:
"Since men can't change, YOU should.
Sincerely,
The Patriarchy"

Jean Kilbourne has an interesting video called Killing Us Softly that has some interesting points about women in advertising.

Okay...I'm going to reiterate what almost everyone here is saying and say WOW she is gorgeous. I can't believe that the moronic advertisers would choose a woman who looks like THIS as their example of what men don't like...I feel bad for the women who are "large" who dont have shiny, glowing skin, with no visible stretch marks, rolls, or cellulite.

Also, I love that it no longer suffices to say things like "yogurt is healthy, it helps with ______ health issues...yogurt is tasty....yogurt is full of fruit"
It's terrific that advertisers have found yet another way to oppress women...through yogurt ads. As if there wasn't enough shit in the clothing, makeup, lingerie, jewelry, shoe, perfume, and cosmetics ads. >:O

"I perused the article and it basically says you should initiate sex, make him feel like he's manly, and moan/sigh a lot so he knows he's really good in bed."

Yeah, faking and over dramatizing is bad sexual advice. If someone is not good for you in bed, then give him/her a few chances to improve, and if he or she doesn't improve, then consider a different relationship arrangement with him or her. This is why I support pre-marital sex, because who really wants to be stuck with someone who doesn't do it for you (anyone) sexually?

I know that was completely off topic, but please forgive me.

oh b.t.w i NEVER thought the original image was attractive AT ALL...i never saw everyones obsession with it when american beauty came out... i mean, mena suvari's cute, and i'm not judging her... but you could see like, each of her ribs. yuck.

Ok, I love yogurt, but I avoid "low-fat" and "lite" versions because they don't have the same levels of good bacteria.
It's true!
Also, real natural yogurt is a low-fat food already, so why bother trying to remove that extra 1-2 grams of fat at the expense of intestinal health?

Back on original topic: I really couldn't believe my eyes when I realised this was supposed to be what an UNATTRACTIVE woman looks like. I'm fairly hetero (most of the time) but may I say "Whaaooorrrr!!!", in a non-objectifying way, of course ;0)

I'm still having trouble conceptualizing this beautiful woman's motives for posing for this ad. I mean, yeah, money, everyone needs it. I still have to wonder what stripping down with the knowledge that the photographs will later be labeled "ugly" does to a person. I wonder if she buys it. Did she think, "Oh, yeah, I am totally the epitome of what men don't want, so I guess this is the job for me." I guess that is neither here nor there, just what I was thinking about.

Maybe my last comment is irrelevant (?) Based on what I read at Feministe, the original Mena Suvari image was photoshopped to make her look bigger, rather than re-shot with a larger woman. But it's unclear based on the post/comments.

I guess I'm a bit late to the game on this one. Damn job...

Basically this ad says:
"Since men can't change, YOU should.
Sincerely,
The Patriarchy"

oh, fishwithfeet, that is by far the most succinct summary i have yet seen!

to the brazilian yogourt company - thanks for reminding me to kiss my partner, who loves my size-12 a$$ just the way it is. oh, and for a new idea to try out in bed...too bad roses are so expensive :)

seriously, what i find most offensive about this ad is the suggestion that "fat" women are unworthy of a man's affection (or objectification, as it were). that and the assumption that all men think the same way. and that all women should strive to meet the fictional male ideal. oh, hell, it's just offensive.

I mean many women are naturally skinny, but most aren't and STRIVE for a body like that. The thing is, this is not "curvy" it's not "full figured."

It's average. Shit, with all the airbrushing it's better than average.

There are two other pictures for the ad that I've found. I saved them to my blog.

http://pics.livejournal.com/arimenthe/pic/0001r6z7

and

http://pics.livejournal.com/arimenthe/pic/0001q9pc

There are two other pictures for the ad that I've found. I saved them to my blog.

http://pics.livejournal.com/arimenthe/pic/0001r6z7

and

http://pics.livejournal.com/arimenthe/pic/0001q9pc

one other thing I was thinking...when you model you don't always know what your image is going to be used for.

I wonder if these women knew..

hold on here a minute...my first reaction was "wow! it's nice to see some curvy girls (like myself...i am similarly shaped) doing advertisements!" then i kept reading...showed it to my boyfriend, who said...she's hot like you, and we were both really disgusted! i understand that by some standards (for instance, i am in the military) think that this size is 'dangerously obese', which i won't even get into how that makes me feel...but really...there is a point where we need to be confident in who we are! this woman is sooo beautiful...and i even thought i wished i could look that good and feel that good about MY body...ads like this just knock those of us working to be happy w/ ourselves back down a notch! i will not buy this brand! (i prefer soy foods anyhow) they don't need my "disgusting" dollars! Oh, and one of my guy friends just saw this over my shoulder, and said he would like to object to what this company thinks men like...that they have no idea what men like because that girl is BEAUTIFUL! but shame on her for giving in to them and giving them power over us...she is far from disgusting...

I don't really see the specific problem with this ad. Is it because she's not fat or is it because making fun of fat people is wrong? If the women were 300 lbs heavier would this ad be less offensive? The arguments against it aren't really supporting this is an offensive ad in and of itself it's offensive because they portray her as fat when she clearly(according to many of you) isn't. Personally, I think she's a little on the chubby side and ironically I'm guessing she's still airbrushed

Ummm... I understand why people would find that ad offensive. But I would NOT want to date or have sex with a woman that heavy. Just my personal preference.

the point IS, scott, that women should not be deemed disgusting simply b/c of our weight or appearance! I have seen the other pics in this ad and i feel sorry for these women who are putting themselves out there as what is supposed to be 'disgusting'. unbelievable! when so many girls are dying of eating disorders...b/c who wants to hear they are disgusting! oh, and derek, good for you and your personal preference. you are missing out on a lot of wonderful women who are really fun, smart, sexy and clever. hopefully women like that wouldn't want to date or have sex w/ you either. i know for a fact that we can do WAY better and find men who think we are HOT just the way we are, and can't get enough of us. too bad for you!

"What really bothers me, as usual, is the heterosexism of this ad. It assumes every woman is trying to attract men. Randomish rant: I was at the market today and saw an always-classy Cosmo on the rack with this cover story: "What Even Experienced Girls Forget to do in Bed." I perused the article and it basically says you should initiate sex, make him feel like he's manly, and moan/sigh a lot so he knows he's really good in bed. That's sad. And degrading. Everything is about pleasing men on this stupid planet."

One: Most women are attracted to men so the point of the ad doesn't assume all are it just figures if 90+-5%(I believe I Homosexuals are about 10% of the populations) are straight then these are good odds and it works for their advertisers.

Two: Mens magazines do the same thing. The point isn't about just pleasing the other sex the point is that BOTH parties should enjoy it so don't be selfish in bed. It's a good point to the article, although what I've read of Cosmo it's probably completely inaccurate.

AAAAAAAAAGH, Scott, have you read the comments here? Did you read the post? Did you follow any of the links? Do you know what feminism is? Or are you just trying to play "devil's advocate" by derailing an otherwise decent thread?

ouyangdan,
women aren't specifically deemed disgusting because of their weight. This ad implies she is too fat which implies she weighs to much for her size but weigh in absolute terms isn't the arguments. It's semantics but it is important. Also, this ad it isn't against women, it's against fat people. It's just marketing towards women in this instance. This is probably an instance of fattism but I can't see how this could be justified as sexism against women anymore than sexism against men.

Maybe the better message would be: "she's attractive, but not what she could be if she took better care of herself."

The extra weight is not in and of itself unattractive (to the contrary, the ad model is a very pretty young woman), but someone who cares enough about herself to be healthy would be more attractive.

I haven't derailed this thread. Both my posts have to do with the original concept. One was a direct misunderstanding of what's so offensive and the other was a response to a misandronistic post.

First off, JaneMinty: Brilliant Analogy about the cake :-)

I was told by a teacher that Brazil has the highest rate of Anorexia in the world - and while I haven’t had the chance to verify that fact, I did live in a town in Paraguay, near the border of Brazil, and from my experience there I believe the statistic is true. There is a huge emphasis on having the “Right� body there, especially with events such as “Carnaval�, where the girls with the “ideal measurements� are chosen to dance on the floats. (Everything in quotes are the exact words of the locals.) The pressure (and sexism) that we experience here in North America doesn’t even compare to what exists down there. There is extreme, and I mean extreme, emphasis on appearance and youth, such that women at or above above say, size six were considered fat.
Thus this advertising, while extremely unfortunate, doesn’t surprise me at all.
But it is encouraging that people are responding so well to the model’s appearance, and negatively to the advertising.

Blacksheep--

WHAT EXTRA WEIGHT?!

Where the fuck do these people live where all women are teeny tiny? I'm not understanding. This appears to be average or even below averge weight. I'm not talking BMI but REAL women that you actually see.

derek, good for you and your personal preference. you are missing out on a lot of wonderful women who are really fun, smart, sexy and clever.

True ... except I don't find heavy women sexy. And there's a plenty of smart, clever women out there who are fit, thin and work out. And a few of them are even willing to date me, in part because I'm fit and work out.

I definitely agree that there is someone out there for everyone, and it's great if heavy women "find men who think we are HOT just the way we are." But those men will also probably be chubby as well. If that's your thing, more power to you, and like I said I agree no one should be demeaned or degraded by advertising.

Regarding deaths from eating disorders ... there's about 1,000 deaths from anorexia and bulemia a year, versus about 112,000 for obesity and lack of exercise -- the No. 2 preventable killer behind smoking, according to the CDC.

ok, Maybe I really just don't get this. Are we as a society not allowed to use anyones body in advertising anymore? Is a gym membership commercial with pictures of physically fit men and women sexist towards both sexes? I understand peoples issues towards this because they don't think she's fat but if it was a legitimately not arguable fat person would this ad be any less offensive? What if it was a guy? This ad is not sexist, it is discriminating against fat people which is also wrong but that's a different topic

C-Bird,

Objectively speaking, this young woman -- pretty as she is -- is carrying way too much weight from a medical perspective, no?

While I agree the BMI scale is ridiculous (heck, we're all obese by that measure), significant obesity like we're seeing here impairs cardiovascular fitness, reduces energy level, and, ultimately, shortens one's lifespan.

She's gorgeous I agree, but it's just not healthy to carry that much extra weight.

She's slimmer than me, has some real curve to her, a pretty face, and excellent skin (though that may be shooped). Also, she's willing to get naked for a photo that will be seen around the world, which indicates she's not shy.

What's the problem again?

Oh, right; that she'd lend her gorgeous face and figure to this demeaning ad. I'm not into people who are self-loathing.

Quote: Maybe the better message would be: "she's attractive, but not what she could be if she took better care of herself."

Maybe, but what if she IS healthy? Even when I live a healthy lifestyle, I am still full-figured. Just like how many slim people have terrible health. Weight doesn't always determine quality of health.

Okay

1. Blacksheep. There is not really any way to tell if this woman is healthy and fit or not just by looking at this ad. Overweight people can be healthier and more fit than average weight people. It depends on the person and what they eat and how often they exercise, NOT their BMI. The only way to really tell would be to check out her medical history and give her a fitness test. Fat does not equal unhealthy or out of shape.

2. Derek. Some obese people suffer from Binge Eating Disorder, which is the most common eating disorder.

And maybe if we started putting more average sized women in ads (say like an 8 or 10 thats not for a "plus size" ad,) then men and women would feel less pressure to be perfect, thus, you know...lessening the likelihood of developing an eating disorder.

And maybe if we started putting more average sized women in ads (say like an 8 or 10 thats not for a "plus size" ad,) then men and women would feel less pressure to be perfect, thus, you know...lessening the likelihood of developing an eating disorder.

No argument there. More realistic advertising could help save the lives and self-esteem of countless people, especially kids.

Blacksheep--

"Objectively speaking, this young woman -- pretty as she is -- is carrying way too much weight from a medical perspective, no?"

Well... No. Really. No. You don't make sense. Did you do her bloodwork? I really honestly don't see "extra weight."

Unless you think she should be like my mother who can't even fucking move because of severe osetoporosis at 55.

"BUT SHE'S SO THIN!!!"

I should be jealous. My size 12 ass should just follow the anerexic role model I grew up with.

That's so fucking hot.

Blacksheep -

someone who cares enough about herself to be healthy would be more attractive.

The idea that fat automatically equals out of shape and unhealthy and thin automatically equals fit and healthy is just RIDICULOUS.

I am 5'8" and 200 lbs. I'm sure you would look at me and assume I never get off the couch and love McDonald's. But the truth is that I work out every day, I teach swimming, and I NEVER eat fast food (I made red lentils, vegetables and salmon for dinner tonight).

I have always been on the bigger side, even when I was more active than I am now.

I have a good friend who is a size 4. She HATES exercising and refuses to do it. The most she will do is go for a SHORT walk in the park. She doesn't eat nearly enough fruit and vegetables.

I'm defnitely what you would consider "fat", but my cardiovascular recovery time is excellent, my blood pressure, blood glucose, cholesterol, and trigylcerides are all normal.

In other words, you can't look at someone and know whether they're healthy.

...especially in light of recent findings:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1968749,00.html

Blacksheep -

someone who cares enough about herself to be healthy would be more attractive.

The idea that fat automatically equals out of shape and unhealthy and thin automatically equals fit and healthy is just RIDICULOUS.

I am 5'8" and 200 lbs. I'm sure you would look at me and assume I never get off the couch and love McDonald's. But the truth is that I work out every day, I teach swimming, and I NEVER eat fast food (I made red lentils, vegetables and salmon for dinner tonight).

I have always been on the bigger side, even when I was more active than I am now.

I have a good friend who is a size 4. She HATES exercising and refuses to do it. The most she will do is go for a SHORT walk in the park. She doesn't eat nearly enough fruit and vegetables.

I'm defnitely what you would consider "fat", but my cardiovascular recovery time is excellent, my blood pressure, blood glucose, cholesterol, and trigylcerides are all normal.

In other words, you can't look at someone and know whether they're healthy.

...especially in light of recent findings:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1968749,00.html

The thing is, this woman IS NOT EVEN FAT!

Let's quit calling her "plus sized" and shit. She's not. She's normal. Let's quit talking about her like she's morbidly overweight or something. She's NOT.

Mulheresperta, C-bird, glad to see there are some people on this thread educated about weight and diet. I got into a huge argument from some girl in my intro Women and Gender Studies class about this topic a few years back. Still makes me angry.

"She's far too digitally-imaged for comments on her appearance to be relevant. That's not "great skin" that's pure airbrushing. Not. real.

Also? Not the point! Let's say she was five times heavier and was photographed in harsh lighting with no make-up or airbrushing--would that make this ad even a little acceptable? NO."

No, it wouldn't. If anything, it would make it less acceptable. The women in the other ads for the same product are a bit heavier. But it clearly doesn't make the other ads more acceptable.

Yeah, the other two ads do feature much heavier women but SURPRISE this is the photo all the bloggers are picking to talk about.

Also, does anyone else find it creepy that everyone keeps talking abotu how hot she is and how their boyfriends think she's sexy and how they'd "hit that and eat yogurt off of her" or am I the only one?

Right on, MirandaJay. That is fucking creepy.

Did anyone else catch the comment where she may just be a "stretched" Mina? THAT is way more creepy

And she is not overweight. If she's a real human being I wouldn't even think her BMI would be out by much if anything (stupid chart). The other two women are larger

The comment about "chubby" men being attracted to chubby women? Not so much. Women naturally carry more fat than men and it's pretty unnatural for us to have the currently desirable body fat % or muscle tone. I find toned women very attractive but that doesn't exclude women with 10-20% body fat.

Many fit, muscular men are attracted to women with curves, and bear in mind that you're used to exceptionally slim women in advertising - "fat" in pictures would often not seem "fat" to anyone in real life.

Holy Crap, did I misunderstand that comment?

10-20% body fat? It's considered dangerous for a woman to go below 14, and "healthy normal" is considered between 20 and 24%.

right first of all i completely disagree with this ad campaign....

but my other thought was WTF is this advertising company doing? how can they honestly think that this is a disgusting image? from their own money making point of view someone fucked up, because if this is the worst "unattractive" image they can pull then they arent doing a good job. she looks healthy and beautiful- which is the opposite of what she is supposed to be portaying.

if they are advertising a healthy yogurt i think it would be more effective to concentrate on health. concentrate on cholesterol etc... and how your body feels inside after improving a diet...

"but someone who cares enough about herself to be healthy would be more attractive."

Whhoooo! We almost got all the way through a body image post without someone playing the "fatties are unhealthy". What was that? 50 some posts? That must be a record.

Blacksheep, met Kate Harding: http://kateharding.net/

That woman is gorgeous. Beautiful confident smile. Doesn't look in the least like she doesn't take care of herself. Do we all need to be portruding collarbones to be "healthy"

Took the words right out of my mouth, Vera Venom.

This ad pisses me off. Not because she looks beautiful or healthy (that's obvious to anyone)...but because the implication that the only reason women should want to lose weight is so they can be visually pleasing to men is disgusting. As is the implication that we should be ashamed and hate our bodies if we don't live up to someone else's ideal. Fuck that. Fuck it right in the ear.

And maybe if we started putting more average sized women in ads (say like an 8 or 10 thats not for a "plus size" ad,) then men and women would feel less pressure to be perfect, thus, you know...lessening the likelihood of developing an eating disorder.

But given that obesity deaths outweight anorexia/bulemia deaths by like 112:1, wouldn't it make much more sense to use less "plus-size" models in ads? Esp. given that anorexia has been linked to a brain defect? Unless the goal isn't so much public health as making people feel better about their sloth and laziness...

Derek:

I had an eating disorder not-otherwise-specific (NOS) with anorexic symptomology for years; I weighed 85 lbs. and was a size 0 my first year of college. After some therapy, I've shaken the thing off and now weigh 115 lbs and am a size 6 or 8. And naked, I look like the girl in the picture. Oh, except my stomach isn't as flat and my breasts aren't as perky.

My point would be 1) I have a healthy BMI (now), and so she might too but 2) the contributions that you have made to this discussion would have been enought at one point to convince me to skip meals. I get that you think that you just want people to be healthy, but your attitute reveals a serious sizist bias that does hurt real people in the real world.

Katie, I'm sorry you had that problem ... but you're 115 lbs. and look like the girl in the picture? What are you, like 4-foot-6? Look at how plump her upper arms are -- the basic reason I don't find her attractive.

Derek, I really suggest that you read this post by Kate Harding.

You know that phrase that says fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity? Trying to make people feel ashamed for being fat has a similar relationship with making those people healthier. A does not lead to B. A just leads to low self esteem and comfort eating, in my experience. What does lead to B? Teaching people to make healthy choices AND be happy with whatever shape that makes them...even if that shape is still fat. Focusing on health and body positivity strikes me as far more helpful than focusing on weight loss and demonizing larger shapes.

Derek Rose et al, please go read the Beth Ditto thread.

On top of everything, the predominance of studies - other than those funded by or affiliated with the dairy industry - show no correlation between dairy consumption and weight loss. In fact, some recent, large, independent studies show a link between dairy consumption and weight gain, even if the dairy is low-fat. Remember, milk is designed to help a calf gain several hundred pounds.

It's about the same for osteoporosis. There's no clear evidence that dairy consumption lowers the rate of bone fractures. In the huge Harvard Nurses Study, volunteers who consumed the most dairy had slightly higher rates of bone fractures. Countries with a fraction of our dairy consumption have healthier bones than us, and heredity doesn't seem to be the deciding factor.

The massive "Eat Drink, Lose Weight" ad campaign was based on a study of 11 people that was funded by the dairy industry and run by a firm that owned the rights to the phrase.

In the U.S., the dairy industry has had to back down from misleading health claims a number of times.

So the ad is fradulent as well as demeaning.

Correction -- I meant to say the "Drink Milk, Lose Weight" campaign.

I'm five feet four inches, and I weigh 183 pounds. I'm 21 weeks pregnant, and I'm gorgeous.

Would more men be attracted to me if I was super-skinny and had no hips? Probably. But you know what? I have my mom's figure, and she was in labor for four hours with each of her children. A four-hour labor or having lots of men want to fuck me? That's not really a hard choice. I'll take my healthy, curvy body any day.

Also, does anyone else find it creepy that everyone keeps talking abotu how hot she is and how their boyfriends think she's sexy and how they'd "hit that and eat yogurt off of her" or am I the only one?

Fucking agreed. The point is that a woman shouldn't base her self-worth on what men think of her physique. That has been totally undermined.

------------------------------------

I don't really see the specific problem with this ad. Is it because she's not fat or is it because making fun of fat people is wrong?

Both.

If the women were 300 lbs heavier would this ad be less offensive?

No.

But I would NOT want to date or have sex with a woman that heavy. Just my personal preference.

I think I speak on behalf of all women "that heavy" and heavier when I say nobody wants your ass.

but someone who cares enough about herself to be healthy would be more attractive.

You have NO idea how healthy she is. NONE.

women aren't specifically deemed disgusting because of their weight.

Yes, yes they are. All the time. In this ad, for example.

This ad implies she is too fat which implies she weighs to much for her size

You pulled that out of your ass. This ad implies nothing about weighing too much for one's size.

Also, this ad it isn't against women, it's against fat people. It's just marketing towards women in this instance. This is probably an instance of fattism but I can't see how this could be justified as sexism against women anymore than sexism against men.

Oh, yeah? Please be so kind as to show us the ads with the naked men being shamed for not being thin enough?

I haven't derailed this thread.

You came here assuming the same thing this ad (and Derek Rose) assumes: that, because you've got a cock, your opinion of our bodies is significant and needs to be expressed. FALSE ASSUMPTION.

True ... except I don't find heavy women sexy.

I'm crying. CRYING I tell you.

And there's a plenty of smart, clever women out there who are fit, thin and work out.

There are plenty of fat women who are fit and work out, too.

And a few of them are even willing to date me, in part because I'm fit and work out.

Just so long as they're not willing to breed with you.

But those men will also probably be chubby as well.

::GASP:: NO! SAY IT AIN'T SO!

but if it was a legitimately not arguable fat person would this ad be any less offensive?

NO.

What if it was a guy?

But it's not a guy and it wouldn't be a guy and THAT IS WHY IT'S SEXIST.

Objectively speaking, this young woman -- pretty as she is -- is carrying way too much weight from a medical perspective, no?

Are you a physician who has examined her? No? Then you know this how?

significant obesity like we're seeing here

"We"? You're the only one seeing it!

but it's just not healthy to carry that much extra weight.

You. cannot. tell. a. person's. health. by. looking. at. them.

Unless the goal isn't so much public health as making people feel better about their sloth and laziness...

FAT DOES NOT MEAN LAZY OR UNHEALTHY OR ANY OF THE OTHER SHIT YOU THINK IT MEANS. HOW IGNORANT CAN YOU BE?!

Look at how plump her upper arms are -- the basic reason I don't find her attractive.

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH. Can you envision a world--fuck, an internet thread--in which what you do or do not find attractive doesn't fucking MATTER?! How do you dare spew this shit at someone who has just been brave enough to share with you the fact that they recovered from an ED? Do you understand that what we're discussing in this thread is OUR MENTAL HEALTH NOT WHAT GETS YOUR COCK HARD?! IT ISN'T ABOUT YOU. NOT. ABOUT. YOU. DAMMIT.

First off, physical appearance doesn't mean shit in terms of health, as many people have pointed out already. My sister is on the skinny side (110 lbs, I'm about 12 more than that usually), yet she has high cholesterol and blood pressure. I have bigger hips and boobs than her, and was a lot more chubby when I was younger, yet my cholesterol and blood pressure are lower. So, seriously, you can't tell a person's exercise activity or lack thereof based on physical appearances every time. Hell, I work out more than she does, but people assume she's the health nut since she's more skinny.

Also, yeah, I get that certain guys don't go for girls with certain frames. I'm the same way. But that's not the issue. Everyone has a preference or a "type" they are attracted to. The issue is the fact that this advert (with a woman who's totally hot, in my opinion) is shitting all over women who aren't stick-thin, and saying "Hey! Fatties! You'll never find a husband/get laid/be happy if you look like that!" Sick.

Sandinista, will you be my new best friend?

A funny thing to note... i showed the picture to my brother who's sitting like a yard away from the computer & he i said "look at this advertisement" all he said was "oh they're using the american beauty thing." when i mentioned the premise behind the ad all he said was "i can't even tell she's fat. she's just attractive."

Derek, Scott, Blacksheep:

First, I live in NYC and see all kinds of men every day. Even though I see more good looking men here than anywhere else in the country, there is still a law of averages. And, no matter how often you guys (I'm assuming Blacksheep is also a dude) claim to "keep fit," the law of averages still states that you most likely do not look as good as my boyfriend does naked.

That said, the bf has a realistic and awesome attitude towards women, unlike you guys. So I guess I'm asking, how do you feel entitled to say such things about someone who is clearly not obese, or probably even not "unhealthy?" In my experience, hot men don't say such things - it's always the less attractive ones who are nitpicky about women's bodies.

Not to mention, cameras really do add 10 pounds. I would guess that the model herself is a size 10, which isn't too much of a stretch for a lot of body types. Or, if, god forbid, you've had a child.

Speaking of body types, it amazes me how uneducated some people are (mainly the aforementioned posters). I love how a woman can be in great shape, but not have the "perfect" wast-to-hip ratio because her rib cage is an inch or two wider in circumference at the bottom. Or, how some people's FRAMES are bigger than others (which I truly believe is a major obstacle in teen body image - they don't get the concept as much). What the fuck are we suppsoed to do - WHITTLE OUR BONES AWAY WITH A SANDER? (Have some of you ever taken an anatomy lab class, or seen a cadaver?)

It also goes without saying that a close to "perfect" body takes many, many hours in the gym (especially if you're over 30). I put a few hours in a week, but also walk pretty much everywhere. I'd spend more time at the gym but, you know, I have a LIFE.

I don't know where to find this Beth Ditto thread ...

Sandinista, calm down and try googling abdominal visceral fat and health and see what you find. Having a fat belly is a very well-documented health risk.

that woman is gorgeous. probably not in the best shape, but neither am i so whatever, doesnt matter. i do have to say that while she is beautiful, the other women used in the ads are much heavier. of course, that doesnt make this any less sexist or offensive. beauty comes in all sizes people. i will say that no one should be striving to weight 400 pounds, bc thats never healthy, but it doesnt necessarily mean (even though i wouldnt find it attractive) that it cant be beautiful. i think something good may come from this though, people are really going to realize how fucked up things are and maybe be truly outraged for once. and not just feminists like us, but everyday types of people who normally dont give it much thought.

Derek: “Unless the goal isn't so much public health as making people feel better about their sloth and laziness...�
Oh no, now I KNOW you didn’t just go there. I won’t even bother shooting you down on that one. You’ve obviously never been an overweight woman.

Anyways, current ad campaigns portraying “normal� women have obviously been so effective in curtailing rising obesity rates. (*rolls eyes*)

And just to add to the arguments about the model’s health: recent studies have shown that the ratio of “waist to hip� measurements are more important in determining health than actual BMI, body fat %, etc. So if you’re carrying most of the weight in your hips, it’s less likely to be a health risk.

May I say something that may be perceived as radical?

One of the tenets of feminism is that individuals should have control over their own bodies. The dairy industry is violently at odds with this principle.

Dairy cows are forcibly impregnated as often as possible, so that they'll continually produce milk. Calves are stolen from their mothers when they're between two days and one month old (usually when they're two days old, as soon as the colostrum taste is out of their mothers' milk and it is marketable). Often from that point on, the calves are fed a formula, so the humans can have all the milk.

Due to intensive breeding, modern dairy cows produce up to ten times as much milk as their pristine ancestors, which robs their bodies of calcium and other nutrients.
By the time they're five years old, and their milk production has fallen below sky-high levels, they're no longer profitable, so they're killed. Half of them are osteoporatic by this point.

The trip to the slaughterhouse can take over 24 hours, during which time the cows are given no food or water. Some of the cows are pregnant; all are lactating.

According to the Washington Post, and many slaughterhouse workers interviewed for Gail Eisnitz' excellent book "Slaughterhouse," due to intense pressure to maximize throughput, not every cow is properly stunned; some cows are fully conscious as their sides are ripped open. Some are dripping milk as they drip blood.

I find it difficult to reconcile feminist principles with participation in the violence of the dairy industry.

BTW, these are all well-documented, standard practices in the dairy industry, including organic and "free-range" dairies. Even the little Amish dairy that sells at our farmers market engages in most of these practices. Feel free to contact a dairy company and ask them about the policies I've mentioned. The article and links on this page -- http://www.bravebirds.org/sexism.html - may also be interesting.

A-fucking-men, Sandinista. You pretty much just said everything I was thinking but couldn't come up with the proper words for.

My other comment got held for approval, probably because I inserted a lot of links.

But Lucy I did read that Kate Harding post. I think it's pretty clear she is wrong that weight itself "ïs not a health problem" unless you're
"so fat you’re immobilized." Visceral abdominal fat is a clear health hazard. (Weight around the hips may not be a health hazard, bornskeptic, but weight around the waist very much is)

But (as I said in the comment in moderation), I agree with you 100% Lucy that people shouldn't be demeaned or vilified, any more than we should mock midgets or people with acne. There's a big genetic component to being fat. As long as someone exercises daily (v impt!) and eats healthy they should be comfortable with who they are.

At least Derek and Scott are entertaining me...Gary's vegan preaching is getting a little self-righteous.

I will calm down when you stop pissing me the fuck off and not a moment sooner.

IT ISN'T ABOUT YOU. NOT. ABOUT. YOU. DAMMIT.

Wait, you're implying that we shouldn't automatically accept his opinion and thank him for providing us with this valuable insight just because he is a man? That sounds like some crazy angry man-hating lesbo shit to me.

But for reals, this "debate" gets to the heart of what the majority of us agreed is so problematic about the ad in the first place - the assumptions that (1) there is not a (conventionally attractive and thus desirable) man walking the earth who would find a woman like that attractive so (2) we'd all better change accordingly by whatever means necessary because (3) we care THAT MUCH about (supposedly) popular male opinion.

So, I'm no expert, I haven't studied Brazil at all but they do have HUGE problems with eating disorders and stuff. Seems like every week there's some Brazilian model who starved herself to death.

Marle's husband could actually be right. I've heard that in Brazil the traditional image of an attractive woman is very curvy and "guitar-shaped." But it's so connected with machismo and old-school chauvinism that young women think it's feminist and progressive to starve themselves and prevent any curves at all. So that catering to the American/European model image of a woman with a 12 y.o. boy's figure is something that they do for themselves to look pretty... not for men.

Despite the fact that this sounds much less healthy even than submitting to the demands of their traditional patriarchy.

Can anyone who has studied or lived in Brazil speak on this?

Gary, I'm not actually flattered that you're comparing women to cattle. I can't quite bring myself to see it as "feminist" either, y'know?

Yeah, uh, I'm going to second the "weight is not an accurate indicator of health" point. I used to be vegan (like really, really vegan - the healthiest, lowest-calorie diet ever) and be between sizes 7-10. I went off birth control pills about 2 years ago and have since lost about 40 pounds - without doing a damn thing. I'm a size 2-4 now, I'm the thinnest I've ever been in my life, but this broad in the poster will probably out-live me. I eat like shit (vegetarian now, but not all that healthy), I don't exercise (except for your basic NYC walking), and I have crazy-high cholesterol (genetics - always have, always will). One of my good friends is pretty heavy - far heavier than this girl in the poster, and she eats nothing but vegetables and lean soy protein and works out like a fiend. She's mad healthy, but she keeps getting heavier, and it's totally, completely, 100% genetics.

I'm not saying all cases are like ours - everyone is obviously different, and there are definitely fat/obese/heavy/"curvy"/whatever people that are NOT healthy as a result of a poor diet and sloth, but you guys have GOT to stop assuming that this applies to everybody. Furthermore, you rarely hear people speculating about how "unhealthy" 5'9" 110 pound women are. There are never any letters of outrage over using models with breast implants or cosmetic surgery, though these things are often as dangerous as unhealthy eating habits.

And boys, the reason people are upset with the ad is not because they featured a plus-size model, but because of the line "forget about it - men's preference will never change," which pretty much, in one broad swoop, shits on multiple equality movements for various communities. Without that one, stupid, buttfuck line, the ad would be glorious.

And yeah, nobody gives a shit if you don't find her sexy. I don't find Brad Pitt sexy, but you don't see me bitching every time I see an Us Weekly.

Yeah, weight isn't a certain indicator of health, and yes, you can't tell how healthy someone is by looking at them. There are lots of people in great shape with high cholesterol, for example. But it's still unhealthy to carry around belly fat.

"And yeah, nobody gives a shit if you don't find her sexy." Well, a lot of people left all these comments about how sexy and attractive they found her ... I think it's fine to offer a dissenting view. She has clearly invited discussion about the issue by appearing in such a provocative (and yes, sexist) ad!

Derek Rose, I'm genuinely baffled at your insistence that we look at belly fat health issues in relation to this model - because, and I swear to god I'm looking with a critical eye- this girl ain't got no belly creases, bulges, or drooping. Yes, I'm sure this ad's been photoshopped, but you don't know what she looked like to start with.

In fact, the only crease or bulge anywhere on this woman is where her breasts have settled up on her chest, and I guarentee you that's not optional. (plus, aren't the men she's supposed to be be trying to please meant to LIKE big breasts?)

While I did find the "licking the yogurt off her" line a little creepy, everyone else saying she's hot and that assorted men also think so is merely a sign, in this case, that the implied preference of men in the tagline is bullshit. And boy does she look happier and sexier than Suvari in the original.

And I'm going to actually back Gary up on his whole dairy rant. Eating dairy doesn't exactly coincide with feminist theory (and I'd like to admit my own hypocrisy since I'm no longer vegan). Dude's got a point - even though it's kind of off topic.

As long as someone exercises daily (v impt!) and eats healthy they should be comfortable with who they are.
Gosh, thanks Derek. Now I can feel good about myself since you've given me permission. How liberating. Cause I totally wasn't talking about your comments at ALL when I mentioned ridiculing fat people. Why would I direct that comment at you, when you refered to body positivity as something to make people feel better about their laziness and sloth? Stuff like that is clearly going to make all the people with that harmful abdominal fat go work out right away.

Sarcasm aside, your earlier posts really don't imply that you think people should be comfortable with who they are. You criticized the body of a woman you've never even seen in person (partially in response to someone who shared the fact that she has an ED, no less), and talked about what YOU find attractive. As many, many other people have mentioned: none of us care what you find attractive...and comments like that in a thread such as this can have very real triggering effects for people with EDs.

Again, like many others have said, you cannot tell from looking at that woman whether or not she is healthy. You aren't her doctor, and her health (or lack thereof) is not your concern. But this ad isn't even really about health. It's about shaming people, which you participated in through your comments whether or not you acknowledge it.

Wait you guys, I know what happened. The copywriter accidentally typed 'men' but really meant to type 'mainstream media'. Ha! Ha! Simple mistake.

Wait you guys, I know what happened. The copywriter accidentally typed 'men' but really meant to type 'mainstream media'. Ha! Ha! Simple mistake.

Right the fuck on. You just made my day.

That woman is beautiful and the idiots who came up with this horrible insulting ad can fuck themselves into the earth. I wish i looked that good. Most men prefer our size anyway. Size 14-16 girls unite!

i sent this to a male friend (who i thought would be pissed) and he goes "well its not like they arent telling the truth". i was like ok we need to just stop talking about this or else we cant be friends.

Re: the criticisms above, you guys are sort of reading right past the parts where I agree this woman is attractive -- I've called her both 'very pretty' and 'gorgeous,' what more can I do without being criticized for ogling her? -- I'm just saying, from a very practical personal health vantage, this woman is too heavy IMO.

She does look happy, and I'm glad she's happy, but obesity can kill you, it's just that simple. A blanket statement? No, of course not. Each and every one of us? No. But a general correlation between obesity and CVD, diabetes, PCOS and so on? Yes, there is a strong correlative relationship.

Is this woman obese (not fat, ugly or caught in the gears of an unfair, judgmental society, but obese in a medical sense)? Well, estimate her BMI, add whatever you want to the scale because the BMI's so restrictive, and then you tell me. Because if what you're telling me so far is true, then Jessica and Vanessa better get themselves to a hospital because they're wasting away to nothing on a comparative basis.

My guess is that if this woman walked into virtually any doctor's office (male or female) and said, "am I too heavy? Do I need to lose weight?", the doctor would say yes on the spot. It doesn't mean she's a bad person, or that she's unattractive, or that I'm judging her cruelly. Just stating my opinion. Sorry to depart from the metanarrative, but there's really no point in posting if I'm going to say things just to agree with someone else, yes?

Thank you Sandinista! I was reading this thread, feeling a bit disturbed that men were saying they'd hit that, or whatever. NOT THE POINT.

Also not the point-that we can be bigger and men can still be attracted to us. Yes, that's a good thing, but it's not the POINT. Having men's approval shouldn't be this important.

And Derek-you are nasty-you need to read more and post less. No one here gives a flying fuck who you find attractive! That is the whole point!!!!! God, what a dimwit.

Derek, Blacksheep, Scott, you can go fuck yourselves. I can't say anything more articulate.
I've been dealing with an eating disorder since I was 15 (I'm 24 now) & have the health effects to show it. Yes, that's 8 years of starving, binging, & purging. My teeth are a mess, my metabolism is so slow that if I eat anything, even healthy food, I gain weight, & I still have to deal with the guilt of eating anything EVERY FUCKING DAY.
Thanks to stupid, ignorant fucks like you in the beauty & ad industry who think that only skeletal is beautiful & that a woman's value only lies in her body. You wouldn't do a "fat" girl? Which by your standards is prolly anyone over size 4. Well, I guess you'll be spending a lot of time with your hand, b/c hot, smart women like myself hear your bullshit & know to stay far away from your stupid asses.
Of course, being a size twelve (I gained a lot of weight after being incapacitated with a fractured pelvis--apparently starvation makes your bones a little weak--& all the meds my doctors have put me on to deal with the related emotional issues with eating disorders), I'm *just* starting to get my health back. But I'll be damned if I'm doing it for the likes of you.

Also, please do not turn this into a "Fat people are unhealthy" thread. That is not the point of this thread.
I read something recently, in Glamour, I think, of all places, that a lot of thin people are as unhealthy as "fat" people b/c they don't exercise (muscle weighs more than fat) & eat shitty food or starve.

Blacksheep, et al: you say: "My guess is that if this woman walked into virtually any doctor's office (male or female) and said, "am I too heavy? Do I need to lose weight?", the doctor would say yes on the spot."

No. You are actually quite incorrect on that. Some might, most would be totally unconcerned.
I know this from experience. Even when I've pressed the issue, I've gotten many "no"s

and this: " from a very practical personal health vantage, this woman is too heavy IMO."

Well, you will be glad to know that your O on personal health ain't worth sh*t. You are wrong, wrong, wrong. BMI, weight, etc. are not reliable measures of health. You can't tell if she is healthy or not from this photo. The fact that you think you can is just proof of how deeply you've absorbed the BS capitalist system of selling insecurity.

Whoa, easy, Moxie. As I said in each and every post, I think this woman is pretty, OK? Pretty!!! Work with me here.

Obviously, this is a real trigger issue for you, and I'm really sorry for what you've been through. It must have been incredibly difficult, and I congratulate you for loving yourself enough to work things through.

I had a long-term girlfriend who was bulimic from her teens on, and I went through literally hundreds of hours of discussions about the subject as she tried to sort things out. You're a hero on this issue as far as I'm concerned, and I'm sorry you took my comments the way you did.

If you check back in the thread, not once did I say "I'd hit it" or anything even close. My opinions were confined to (i) she's very pretty, but (ii) she'd likely be healthier if she lost weight. That's it. In any event, absolutely no offense intended, OK?

To respond to Bowleserise's understandable objection...I think cows are cool and beautiful, and from years of volunteering at a farm animal sanctuary, I am awed by their ability to get along with one another and to form bonds and learn to trust humans even after being horribly abused.

My point was not to imply that women = cows, but that we pervert cows' reproductive capabilities, break up their families, and exploit them in profound violation of feminist ethics.

Cows suffer, too. They wail after their calves are stolen from them. They stumble and fall from years of being exploited for their milk; some cannot get back up. They develop painful udder infections from hormones injected into their bodies and overproduction of milk. The mechanism by which they're impregnated is commonly referred to as the "rape rack."

It is often difficult to recognize - and confront - one's own complicity in exploitation and inflicting suffering on others, especially if one has been or is a victim of exploitation herself.

Historically, both women and cattle (derived from "chattel") have been property, owned by and dominated by men, their bodies exploited for profit and pleasure. Any form of exploitation is wrong. To create a loving and respectful society, we have to divest ourselves from our own participation in oppression as well as fight to end oppression in which we are the victims.

And I'd lick the yoghurt off 'er.

In a totally non-sexist way, of course.

Sooo seconded.

Lucy and Buggle -- What is this, like a big group hug? A lot of people said they thought she was hot; are you going to tell them too that you don't care what they find attractive?

Actually I think you both protest a little too much. If you really didn't care that some men (not necessarily me) don't find a woman like that attractive, people would not be getting so worked up and angry about this issue.

Also, Lucy, just to be clear: I don't think "people should be comfortable with who they are." I think people should be comfortable with who they are IF they eat healthy and get at least an hour a day of vigorous exercise.

Some of the comments here remind me of the whole "self-esteem" movement where people are encouraged to feel good about themselves no matter what they've done or accomplished. That's not how it's supposed to work, at least in my book.

Iscah, I was just talking about belly fat in general. I have no idea whether this model is unhealthy or not; she looks pudgy to me but not dangerously overweight.

But Blacksheep-you say you mean no offense, but then you say that this woman would be more healthy if she lost weight. So, you are promoting the false idea that
Thin = Healthy

This is just incorrect. As many people have pointed out, health has to do with a lot more than the size of your ass, or whatever. What aren't you getting about that? It's quite common knowledge these days that being thin doesn't mean you are healthy. It's the behaviors that you engage in that make you healthy or not. For example-a skinny smoker is NOT healthier than a non-smoking woman who is 20 above the weight women are allowed to be by the patriarchy. Get it?

Any time we try to tell women to lose weight or that she should look differently, we are shaming her. We are saying she's not good enough and she needs to try harder to look a certain way for me. Seeing that you had a girlfriend who was bulimic, I'd think you would understand the amount of pressure that women are under to conform to a certain beauty standard. How are you not getting this?

My guess is that if this woman walked into virtually any doctor's office (male or female) and said, "am I too heavy? Do I need to lose weight?", the doctor would say yes on the spot.

Yea, that's my guess, too. First of all, the medical profession is (sadly) not immune to bias. Second of all, most of us are not, to the best of my knowledge, physicians and certainly none of us have ever examined the health of this individual. So why are we commenting on it?

No. But a general correlation between obesity and CVD, diabetes, PCOS and so on? Yes, there is a strong correlative relationship.

First of all, correlation does not equal causation. Second of all, explain to me how this is relevant to this abhorrent ad campaign. This ad campaign isn't about health, it's purely about fat-shaming aesthetics.

And, frankly, I'm tired of this hiding behind health bullshit. Do you comment this way on billboards of skinny women? Those women could have eating disorders, they could smoke they could do coke, they could just plain old be sedentary and eat poorly. If anything, the potential EDs or drug abuse might actually be tied to their modeling careers. Yet, somehow, when people see them in ads, they're not moved to discuss it. But every time a "fat" girl dares to exist (esp. in a photograph, heavens forfend!), someone feels the need to talk about her health. Well, you don't know shit about her health.

And, really, trust me: everyone on this thread and this model and anyone who will ever see this image HAS HEARD of obesity. We do not need a refresher course.

"Well, a lot of people left all these comments about how sexy and attractive they found her ... I think it's fine to offer a dissenting view."

Why is it that men are always so convinced others give a shit what they think? Particularily feminists. Is it encoded in the y chromosome or something?

Derek, Blacksheep et all.
You can spare us the fat bigotry. Really.

No one gives a crap if you think she's hot or not, if you think she's unhealthy or not etc ad nauseum. We've heard it all before. In case you hadn't noticed, the objection here is that media has found yet another way to insult, and objectify yet more women.

And it's been asked a few times now that you quite derailing the thread with your garbage.

I'm just saying, from a very practical personal health vantage, this woman is too heavy IMO.

No one asked. More importantly, no one cares. You aren't her doctor. You have not examined her, don't know what she eats, how often she exercises, etc. You don't have access to her medical history. Most importantly: whether or not she is healthy is none of your fucking business. And, like Moxie Hart just mentioned, declaring everyone over a certain weight "unhealthy" is not the point of this thread.

How attractive the woman is also happens to NOT be the point. I posted this photo to my own blog, and was quite frustrated at the vast amount of my friends who posted comments saying they thought she was pretty. That's nice, but not why I posted it. I am angry because it is fucking insulting of this company to imply that my self-worth should be based on what a man thinks of me, and that I should be ashamed if I deviate from that man's ideal. That is the point (as I interpreted it), in case you were confused.

Because if what you're telling me so far is true, then Jessica and Vanessa better get themselves to a hospital because they're wasting away to nothing on a comparative basis.
...
Please tell me you did NOT just say that. Not only is it completely uncalled for to draw attention to the body shapes of two Feministing contributors in a discussion like this (or hell, in ANY discussion for that matter), it pretty much demonstrates that you haven't been paying attention to anything any of us have said. Health and beauty both come in all sizes...big, medium, and small. Whether or not a particular person is or is not healthy is generally NOT your business to discuss.

Vera - if you don't care, if you don't give a crap or not, then WHY ARE YOU BOTHERING TO RESPOND? I mean, you say you don't care, but it sounds to me like you (and a bunch of others here) are offended as can be!

Look: everyone has different standards of what they find attractive. You very well might not find ME attractive and that is your absolute right.

Can't you just accept that some guys don't find this woman sexy and LET IT GO??

Derek, did you miss the part where this is a photoshopped image, not a real model? So, this woman who "invited" attention to her size doesn't actually exist, it's an image manipulated by the advertisers.

With that said, I think we can all ignore Derek now, as he's obviously just trying to get some traffic to his blog.

And I'm with Sandinista 100%. Anyone who can't get past saying "but that girl is so HAWT!" or "but ya-HUH men totally do find big women attractive!" is just doing more objectifying and is still sadly unable to break away from the *what men find attractive = important* paradigm. Arguing that a man really DOES find such a body shape / size attractive sounds suspiciously like you feel the need to legitimize that shape / size, and men's approval is a time-honored pathway to legitimizing just about anything. It's just more patriarchal bullshit.

"Also, Lucy, just to be clear: I don't think "people should be comfortable with who they are." I think people should be comfortable with who they are IF they eat healthy and get at least an hour a day of vigorous exercise. "

So you're more of the self-righteous type also? Here's an idea... why don't you submit a picture of yourself, so we can all critique it. Something I just love is the way that women are judged and talked about based on their appearance far more than most guys. Like for instance, the other day a bunch of my co-workers were all sitting around dissing on a female worker who doesn't shave (behind her back of course) I said some things about it, to which they basically laughed at me. Funny thing was, I personally thought the ring leader was really weird looking himself. Of course, I didn't tell him that, because I /don't think that's an appropriate way to judge a person/.

The woman in this ad may live a very healthy lifestyle. Possibly, she doesn't. If she doesn't, it would be better for her to do so, but she shouldn't have to feel badly about herself in the meantime. A person's self-esteem shouldn't hang on every little freakin' detail of how they do things and whether or not they're doing things "right" (and for most guys, it obviously doesn't)

My opinions were confined to (i) she's very pretty, but (ii) she'd likely be healthier if she lost weight.

And other people have made arguments to refute that opinion based on facts rather than their opinion. So maybe you should stop repeating that you think she would be healthier if she lost weight, because it's clear that you can't prove that. Unless you have a new thought, it is time to move on.

okthanksbye.

Also, I'm a tall, skinny chick myself. I think it's mostly genetic. I do not know yet whether I will be considered healthy in 10 or 20 years. I guess my health habits are better than some people's, and worse than other's.

I'm also really super flat-chested. Now I know according to our medical understanding of correlations between upper body fat and heart disease, this should actually mean I'm healthier. I have very little upper body-fat, and carry most of my fat in my butt. You know what though? No one (male, female, media) /ever/ says to me "gee, those AAs mean you're /so healthy/ and attractive." Fat in the boobies is just as dangerous as fat in the belly, yet no one ever talks about dangers of the former, either. And overall, there are so many various factors that can affect health that don't get talked about. So yeah, basically those of you going "she doesn't look healthy" (whether or not she is healthy, b/c we can't know) need to question your motivation for focusing on that as opposed to dozens of other possible topics for conversation

Any time we try to tell women to lose weight or that she should look differently, we are shaming her. We are saying she's not good enough and she needs to try harder to look a certain way for me. Seeing that you had a girlfriend who was bulimic, I'd think you would understand the amount of pressure that women are under to conform to a certain beauty standard. How are you not getting this?

buggle,

Your question about my ex is very interesting. She was very attractive IMO, and of course because I loved her (not to mention she didn't need to) I never once said anything of the sort.

To the contrary, I told her all the time how much I loved her, and how pretty and smart I thought she was (she was a pharmacist).

But because of her bulimia -- which, according to the literature we read and her therapist's advice, appeared to derive from an unhealthy relationship with a sharply critical, perfectionist Mom -- she could never really accept the love or positive attention.

Instead, she was so consumed by self-loathing and insecurity about her bulimia (and consequently the false impression she had about her looks), she basically 'shamed' herself (to use your word, but I don't think that's exactly right, either), even though she was a truly wonderful person.

It was sad beyond belief, and eventually cost us a relationship of several years when she decided to try to work things out on her own rather than within the context of a relationship. So yeah, I've been there, and yeah, I understand the pressure women are under to conform to a mythical beauty standard.

I'm still surprised to receive such hostile treatment, though, over what was no more than a detached, clinical opinion about health issues. Would everyone be saying the same thing if she weighed 400 pounds? I hope not, because even well-intended acquiesence to such an obvious problem would itself become part of the problem at that point, as she would be in clinical danger.

Maybe the real problem here stems from the fact that this is my first time on the board, and didn't pick up on the sensitivity with which my comments would be taken.

Then again, maybe my opinion is just s**t and I'm wrong, wrong, wrong about pretty much everything like someone said above.

And maybe, in hindsight, I should have just said I'd hit it after all, huh? Umm .. I'm thinking not. ;-)

Thanks for the civil reply, btw.

Word, Lucy, particularly on your final paragraph. Bringing up the bloggers here is totally inappropriate! Also, why do people insist on trying to shift the paradigm (or read our comments like we're trying to) instead of throwing out the idea of one universal image of healthbeauty (the concepts are not distinct in this situation)?

If you really didn't care that some men (not necessarily me) don't find a woman like that attractive, people would not be getting so worked up and angry about this issue.

Dear asshat: We are pissed off because you have come to peddle your stigmatizing, dangerous, false, patriarchal bullshit in a FEMINIST SPACE. Go to Fark or CollegeHumor and talk about fat chicks and wingmen and what you think of flabby arms. (Please. Go. Don't let the browser hit you on your way out.) But get it through your skull that this space is not intended as a receptacle for your preferences or other wank. Besides, no one here would touch you with a ten-foot pole; why the hell would we care if you want to fuck us?

Can't you just accept that some guys don't find this woman sexy and LET IT GO??

God, are you such an asshole or just that stupid? We HAVE to accept it; we are reminded of this every fucking day and there's little we can do to forget about it. WE KNOW, you dumbass. BUT JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO COME HERE AND SAY IT. I know the world is designed to make you feel entitled to, well, anything you want but that's not actually reasonable. No one wants you to find this woman attractive (least of all, I would imagine, her); we just want you to shut up.

I think people should be comfortable with who they are IF they eat healthy and get at least an hour a day of vigorous exercise.

Wait, IS THAT WHAT YOU THINK? So glad you finally stopped censoring yourself and imparted your valuable standard of righteousness on us. Bless you, prophet.

"if you don't care, if you don't give a crap or not, then WHY ARE YOU BOTHERING TO RESPOND? I mean, you say you don't care, but it sounds to me like you (and a bunch of others here) are offended as can be!"

Project much? You can't upset me as you are just words on a computer screen. Clueless, entitled words verging on bigotry. I don't care what you think. But don't you dare think you're going to be allowed to spew it in a FEMINIST space and be immune from criticism.
"Look: everyone has different standards of what they find attractive. You very well might not find ME attractive and that is your absolute right. Can't you just accept that some guys don't find this woman sexy and LET IT GO??"

WTF? Irrelevant and off topic. No one is telling you that you must find her attractive. WE DON'T CARE WHAT YOU FIND ATTRACTIVE.

How can you possibly STILL not be getting that?

I'm still surprised to receive such hostile treatment, though, over what was no more than a detached, clinical opinion about health issues.

The only place we need our "detached, clinical opinion about health issues" from is a medical professional whose services we have sought. Health is regularly used as an excuse to shame fat people. Can you understand that her health is none of your damn business?

Would everyone be saying the same thing if she weighed 400 pounds? I hope not, because even well-intended acquiesence to such an obvious problem would itself become part of the problem at that point, as she would be in clinical danger.

I sure as fuck would be. Not pointing out a total stranger's potential health problem that you have diagnosed based on one 2D image in spite of the fact that you're not qualified to diagnose shit does not make you "part of the problem." Even if she is "in clinical danger," that is still NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. How hard could that be to grasp?

Maybe the real problem here stems from the fact that this is my first time on the board, and didn't pick up on the sensitivity with which my comments would be taken.

Oh, good. Condescension. Just what we were lacking here. Oh, no, we must be terribly sensitive and therefore unable to grasp the glory of your detached, clinical objectivity, oh clinically objective one. Or could it be that you've bought into a sizist culture that arms you with an array of tools--purported concern for health being one of them--to shame fat women as soon as they cross your field of vision?

The real problem is that you're not listening.

If you really didn't care that some men (not necessarily me) don't find a woman like that attractive, people would not be getting so worked up and angry about this issue.

if you don't care, if you don't give a crap or not, then WHY ARE YOU BOTHERING TO RESPOND? I mean, you say you don't care, but it sounds to me like you (and a bunch of others here) are offended as can be!

It's been an interesting thread so far, but I'd say these two statements are by far the most outrageously funny things I've read so far.

Because seriously, the only reason feminists get pissed off when people discriminate against overweight men and women is because we're just trying to convince them to be attracted to us. Nevermind that... idunno... it's offensive to some of us as people.

Sigh.

But Blacksheep, she isn't 400 pounds, so that's neither here nor there. You took one look at that picture and decided that the woman is fat and unhealthy, and that she should lose weight. Why is this your business? Why do you get to decide who is fat and unhealthy? Why do you get to decide who "needs" to lose weight (this woman) and who doesn't need to (your ex).

If you ex had bulimia, but was also not thin, would you have encouraged her to lose weight for her health? Because many people with bulimia are not thin, and could be considered overweight-by people like you.

What word would you use other than shame, to describe a woman who has been taught that her body will never be good enough?

And really, your "detached opinion" sounded just like fat-bashing, which has no place on this, or any other, feminist board.

If you are new around here, I strongly suggest that you spend a LOT more time reading-at least for a few months- than posting.

Posting this again. BOYS (i.e. Blacksheep and Derek) READ AND RESPOND

Blacksheep, et al: you say: "My guess is that if this woman walked into virtually any doctor's office (male or female) and said, "am I too heavy? Do I need to lose weight?", the doctor would say yes on the spot."

No. You are actually quite incorrect on that. Some might, most would be totally unconcerned.
I know this from experience. Even when I've pressed the issue, I've gotten many "no"s

and this: " from a very practical personal health vantage, this woman is too heavy IMO."

Well, you will be glad to know that your O on personal health ain't worth sh*t. You are wrong, wrong, wrong. BMI, weight, etc. are not reliable measures of health. You can't tell if she is healthy or not from this photo. The fact that you think you can is just proof of how deeply you've absorbed the BS capitalist system of selling insecurity.

"Maybe the real problem here stems from the fact that this is my first time on the board, and didn't pick up on the sensitivity with which my comments would be taken.

Then again, maybe my opinion is just s**t and I'm wrong, wrong, wrong about pretty much everything like someone said above.

And maybe, in hindsight, I should have just said I'd hit it after all, huh? Umm .. I'm thinking not. ;-)

Thanks for the civil reply, btw. "

Here you start off with the "women getting upset just means they're being too sensitive" b.s. Not going to make friends that way. You're allowed to impart your opinions in a passionate manner, so are other people. You're allowed to have strong feelings about issues that affect you directly, so are women. It doesn't mean they're "so sensitive". It means they're human beings with an ounce of self-respect.

And with your passive agressive comment about "And maybe, in hindsight, I should have just said I'd hit it after all, huh?"

That's /real/ mature. Uh-hum. To answer your question from my perspective. If this woman weighed 400 lbs, then sure one might say she should lose weight. But she should do it for herself, for her own health, and it doesn't mean she should feel bad about herself until she does that.

For real, if you were a regular at Feministing, who had engaged in a lot of intellectual constructive discussion before this you probably wouldn't be met with as much animosity. But that's not how you're presenting yourself at all. Why is it you felt a need to sign on just to say that you think a woman looks unhealthy? Are you trying to teach someone something? Is it perhaps that you are *gasp* biased?

Oh my gosh you gals are ANGRY. Sandinista, though, just to be 100% clear, I don't use phrases like "fat chicks" or other demeaning language.

Actually, I don't even call people I'm debating with "asshat" or "dumbass" or write lines like, "are you such an asshole or just that stupid?" I believe in treating people with respect, and I don't think it's some terrible crime I said I didn't find this woman sexy.

But Vera, if you truly don't care, then let's DROP IT and MOVE ON to broader issues than what me and the other guys here do or don't find attractive, OK?

(And Nina, if you're really that curious you can google me and say all the bad things you want, there are pictures out there... )

People who are trying to be respectful don't start off with phrases like this:

"Oh my gosh you gals are ANGRY."

Derek Rose:

Yes. We tend to get angry when ignorant people talk out of their asses.

Oh, and your blog makes it pretty clear that you have never even bothered to really invistigate feminism

I suggest you google feminism 101 and get some grounding

No shit, wow this is out of touch with any kind of an in-depth knowledge or understanding:

http://derekrose.com/wp/?p=1133

Are /you/ a scientist or neurologist, Derek Rose, for all that you're criticizing other people's understanding of science? Some feminists really do study science, you know? Some are even scientists who study these things themselves...

Nina, I feel like after being called an asshole and a ton of other nasty names, that was a very measured and civil response.

Jenna, to respond to your earlier comment (where you did ask for my response), as I said here, I have no idea whether the model is healthy or not ... "she looks pudgy to me but not dangerously overweight."

But Derek, we know you don't think too highly of feminists, and that you know very little about feminist theory or gender studies, etc., so /why are you posting on a feminist blog/?

We can't start every discussion on a feminist blog at ground-zero for your average non-feminist heterosexual white male, you know what I mean? That would get kind of boring, and plus that's what we do in our every day lives. This blog provides some variety from that.

Wow. I love when people actually read whats written. Sigh.

Again. Unless you do her family history and bloodwork and give her a fitness test, there is NO way to tell if she's healthy or fit or not. Period.

Also Derek et al., making a worldview like your an important part of every discussion effectively makes the discussion about you. This blog is about women and women's experiences, something underrepresented in mainstream media. If you are interested in learning about women's experiences and trying to see things from women's points of view, that's grand. But so far you haven't showed the slightest inclination in that direction.

Why is it you felt a need to sign on just to say that you think a woman looks unhealthy? Are you trying to teach someone something? Is it perhaps that you are *gasp* biased?

Actually, for the reasons mentioned above, I just thought the topic was interesting and wanted to participate in the discussion.

I posted in another thread about localized improvements for women in Afghanistan for the same reason -- the topic interests me.

Oh, well. I gave it a shot. Have a good one.

Ah, I love it when teh real menz come on here to school us about what is and isn't attractive while they plug their pig ignorant blogs. Way to make sure the discussion always revolves around you, real menz!

My grandmother passed away last week and it seemed that the main topic of conversation at the wake was MY weight. Not that I am "overweight", no, I guess you hit your mid-twenties and haven't changed much since you were in college, that makes you "too thin!" I was about ready to put a sign on my back with something along the lines of: "I've weighed this much since I was 18. I eat constantly, I work out, I've never dieted, and my doctor says I am perfectly healthy. Thanks for your concern".

Nina, I don't think it's fair to say I "don't think too highly of feminists." There are many very smart feminists out there, and yes many of them are scientists and many are much smarter than me.

I didn't realize you had to "think a certain way" to post comments (mostly respectful comments, although yes okay my "angry comment was condescending, but it was in response to a lot of vitriol). I would think that a lot of groupthink without dissenting opinions would get kind of boring, IMHO...

Speaking of which, going back to a comment Charity made:

And I'm with Sandinista 100%. Anyone who can't get past saying "but that girl is so HAWT!" or "but ya-HUH men totally do find big women attractive!" is just doing more objectifying and is still sadly unable to break away from the *what men find attractive = important* paradigm. Arguing that a man really DOES find such a body shape / size attractive sounds suspiciously like you feel the need to legitimize that shape / size, and men's approval is a time-honored pathway to legitimizing just about anything. It's just more patriarchal bullshit.

I don't know, don't both men and women work hard to make themselves attractive to the opposite sex? Or the sex they're attracted to? I go to the gym, work out, groom myself, try to dress well, sometimes even wear jewelry ... all because I subscribe to the "what women find attractive = important" paradigm. And, come to think of it, so do the hot lesbians I know...

"Again. Unless you do her family history and bloodwork and give her a fitness test, there is NO way to tell if she's healthy or fit or not. Period."

True dat.

"Oh, well. I gave it a shot. Have a good one."

A shot at what? At teaching feminists something? You don't seem like you came hear to /learn/ anything...

"I don't know, don't both men and women work hard to make themselves attractive to the opposite sex? "

Of course, but I would say in general the expectations are a little harder for women to reach, and the affects on the self-esteem of men and women, respectively, is a little different. Like it is rare that you will find a group of women sitting around together having a conversation criticizing or joking about a guy's appearance, or to judge a guy based on that factor above all else. In contrast, women are frequently valued by men for their appearance above all else, and they will be harassed if they don't meet men's expectations. It's true, because I've experienced it, as have a lot of women.

And about your rant on your blog about the equality of men and women. You know, there's a lot we don't know about the human brain, that's true. By the same token, science is made by people and the way a study is set up can be just as biased as any manipulation of statistics can be. I suggest a book for a little starter called "Myths of Gender". A female biologist at Brown University examines a number of studies about "inherent gender differences" to point out areas of the study that could skew results. Also the Kinsey institute (certainly not inherently feminist) has some interesting stuff on the topic of purported "scientifically found" gender differences and sexuality.

Look: everyone has different standards of what they find attractive. You very well might not find ME attractive and that is your absolute right.

Look: that's true. But the fact is that you should also be able to admit that just because YOU don't find someone attractive, that doesn't make her a fat disgusting human being who is at risk for heart disease. There are a hell of a lot more people in this world who I DON'T find attractive than I do. But every time I see someone I don't find attractive, I don't go off about how unhealthy that person is and try to make it seem like I have some sort of moral superiority over them.

The really arrogant thing, Derrick, is that several women on this post, myself included, have remarked that we have bodies similar to that of the model and are unashamed of them. And then you come here and try to say that women with bodies like that are fat and unhealthy and just generally gross, so much so that you have to say it again and again and again. I don't give a shit that you wouldn't fuck me, because I sure as hell wouldn't fuck you if you were the last guy on earth. But there's nothing benign in coming here and making these comments in front of women with these types of bodies, or larger ones. So cut the innocent act.

Seriously, why does this have to happen on EVERY thread that discusses the idea that you can be over a size 6 and still be attractive? Why the FUCK are people so threatened by that? Oh gee, couldn't have anything to do with the patriarchy, could it?

Derek, asserting that overweight people should only feel good about themselves if they exercise *vigorously* for an hour a day is so completely disgusting. Since I CAN'T exercise *vigorously* for an hour every day (or any day, for that matter) because of a disability, I must spend the remainder of my overweight life in total shame. How nice for me. Judging people based on how much they exercise as opposed to the content of their characters is patently ridiculous. I hope you find a nice, skinny girl who is as shallow as you are.

Also, some recent studies came out saying that excess body fat is not as dangerous as we have been led to believe and that overweight people have better survival rates after heart attacks than thin people. (Sorry I can't find the first study online).

Closer to home, a so-called "healthy-sized" (read: thin) friend of mine, after a miscarriage, was told by her doctor that she had to gain weight to be *healthy* enough to carry a baby to term. I believe her BMI was actually in the so-called "normal" range. She is mow much curvier, so I'm sure that Derek would find her repulsive, however, she is FAR healthier. Women's "healthy" body fat percentages have been scaled down in recent years to levels that are now affecting our fertility.

Wow, this whole thread and no one mentioned what seems to me the exact opposite ad campaign: Doves "Real Women" Campaign. Perhaps dissenters should look at those for a respectful and healthy ad campaign of the female body.

On another note, dissenters here seem to be subject to a bit of mob mentality. I respect anyone who can argue civilly while being screamed at by the masses.

Most comments from both sides have had real thought behind them, and I realize that statements have been controversial, but no ones going to listen if you simply insult them, and then insult them from not listening.

What I'm saying is, can't we all just get along? Or at least be civil? I wouldn't want threads like this to give an otherwise objective, forward thinking community a bad name.

Bryan, part of me loves the Dove campaign, because those women are gorgeous and it so nice to see women who look like me held up us a standard of beauty.

But on the other hand, they are still advertising for products to improve your beauty. They say "Sure, you can be a size 12 and beautiful, but you better not have any cellulite." They're still getting us to look at what's wrong with our bodies instead of what's right.

Obviously Dove is a company that sells beauty products, and they wouldn't have many sales if they put together an ad campaign that says "Fuck the patriarchy, your inherent worth has nothing to do with your looks." And I'd much rather have larger ladies out there than not. But I think it's a mistake to hold that particular campaign up as the gold standard of feminist advertising.

I would like to second everyone else who has said that health cannot be determined from somebody's appearance.

But more important than that, everyone who says that the woman in the picture needs to loose weight bc it's not healthy, are kidding themselves and us. We don't judge people bc we think they're not being healthy, we judge them when we think they're not attractive. So you can't sit there and say she needs to loose weight bc it's not healthy... you want her to loose weight because you don't like the way it looks. Skinny models are not always healthy, but nobody is telling them 'ew you can't be attractive bc you're not healthy'. Nobody's saying that. And why? Because in our culture, health and being attractive do not have to exist together.

How else would smoking be considered sexy?

And I'd like to say one thing to Gary on his little anti-dairy rant. Every single cow is stunned before they are killed or bled. It's the law, and the harvesting plant will be shut down by the food inspectors if that isn't what is happening. And if you actually went around to dairies, I know that dairies in CA differ in practices from area to area so I don't even know if the practices that are common here are used in other areas of the US. So all you're doing is repeating more false, over-dramaticed PETA crap. Thank you, it was entertaining and totally off-topic. And I'm not even going to touch how you're comparing women to cattle, you can have that one all to yourself.

As a photographer, I prefer to see more diversity than what is in the Dove campaign, even. Ads that appeal to me have happy people of many shapes, sizes, and colors. Sexual attraction for me is another story, but I largely keep it to myself or talk about it with friends and I certainly don't conflate my personal preferences with what other people's self esteem should be.

Fearylore, with regards to cattle, Fast Food Nation claims otherwise. And it's a pretty compelling argument.

But like you said, all of that IS completely off topic.

waelhtheow,

I had never really viewed the Dove campaign in that light. And I can definitely see the mixed message. But I think they are on the right track.

"And I'd like to say one thing to Gary on his little anti-dairy rant. Every single cow is stunned before they are killed or bled. It's the law, and the harvesting plant will be shut down by the food inspectors if that isn't what is happening."

Okay, I don't particularly like PETA. I'm not a strict vegetarian (although mostly) I have some anti-meat industry sympathies, although I don't consider them integral to my feminism. I've got to say Faerylore, that I've seen a documentary that basically talked about how not all cattle are affectively stunned. The meat industry seriously has a lot of problems, I'd suggest the Adbusters edition dealing with food, or one of the documentaries like "Meat Your Meet". Learn some about the problems in the meat industry before defending it, seriously. (Hint: I know there are laws in place, but inspection is nothing like perfectly thorough).

"Skinny models are not always healthy, but nobody is telling them 'ew you can't be attractive bc you're not healthy'. "

As a skinny person I've got to interject here and say that yes in high school I did hear this some. I know other skinny people have heard negative things about their appearances too. I think our culture examines and criticizes physical appearances too much in general.

[I]n general the expectations are a little harder for women to reach ...

Really? Why's that, Nina? Weaker? Need a little push up that ladder, hon?

... and the affects on the self-esteem of men and women, respectively, is a little different.

No doubt, dear. I'm sure you're very special.

[I]t is rare that you will find a group of women sitting around together having a conversation criticizing or joking about a guy's appearance, or to judge a guy based on that factor above all else. In contrast, women are frequently valued by men for their appearance above all else, and they will be harassed if they don't meet men's expectations

And just why, pray tell, would a strong, knowledgeable feminist like yourself care about superficial people like that? I mean, you're self-image isn't determined by what others think, is it?

It's true, because I've experienced it

Well now we're getting somewhere. So come on in. Drag your trembling, personally actualized self-worth over to Dr. Blacksheep's couch, and let's sort this all out.

You're nothing but an insecure, insolent little girl seeking positive reinforcement here because you still don't get it elsewhere, and you still can't provide it for yourself, isn't that right? And all that abuse you hurled at me? Just anger and disappointed in yourself, displaced and projected at someone you don't even know. Sad, really.

Well what do you know? Turns out this feminism stuff isn't so hard after all!

My, my, my ... glad I stopped back by to make sure you were doing OK.

ROTFLMAO

Wow, so I hope that Blacksheep just got himself banned. Ignore him.

EWWW Blacksheep, I'm sorry I even bothered responding to you. You are clearly just an asswipe.

Calling women insecure insolent little girls is fucking disgusting. Acting like you know one thing about feminism is insane.

What you wrote to Nina is pure bile and hatred. Why are you here?

My God, blacksheep. I'm glad my comments went to heart.

Most of the posts I had problems with were at least trying to impart a point. I think yours is the most demeaning, stereotypical sexist response I've ever read on the board, and your only inviting the criticism now, and making life harder for anyone who would like to have a rational conversation. You, sir, are an idiot.

You, sir, are an idiot.

Hey Bryan, we've finally found something we can agree on!

Oh, Cara, I'm sure there is a lot more. I probably come of very one sided in many of these discussions, because I don't post unless I have something different to say. I agree with most of you on a lot of issues, I just don't want to post a lot of "yeah, I agree" stuff.

Oh well, that was completely off topic, but I think this conversation is rather derailed anyway. C'est la vie.

Whatever. I'm out of here.

Later.

wow. This sort of reminds of the scene in Men in Black I when the Alien takes its mask off (I love that movie, and Will Smith).

Of course I'm going to ignore him. He can think whatever he wants about whether or not I have experienced difficulties enough to warrant complaints and an interest in identity politics -it's not like money is at stake so I see no point in betting. I've actually got to go do some stuff now anyway, so umm... model advertisements... are any of you all familiar with Threadless? (www.threadless.com) It's a successful company but I like their advertisements b/c they seriously do use real-looking people.

I somehow missed this while I was writing my last rant:
Also, Lucy, just to be clear: I don't think "people should be comfortable with who they are." I think people should be comfortable with who they are IF they eat healthy and get at least an hour a day of vigorous exercise.

Wow. Others have already mentioned it...but you really are condescending, aren't you? I'm sure that people with disabilities that prevent them from exercising and low-income people without the time to work out (and the funds to buy healthier food...that stuff tends to be expensive) will appreciate your opinion that they aren't worthy of self-esteem. That was that pesky sarcasm again, in case you couldn't tell.

Why am I bothering to respond to you if I don't care what you think? To try to make you think about what you're saying, and how it affects others. Probably a lost cause, but whatever. I should be a horrible pessimist by now, but hope springs eternal. No, I don't want life to be a giant group hug...but I generally think most people would be better off if they could let themselves feel good about the way they look.

Blacksheep, I don't often say this on public forums such as this because I tend to think that all voices deserve to be heard (even if they are idiots)...but seriously, shut the fuck up. Do yourself (and everyone else) a favor and carefully read through all of these responses again (quietly). Think about them for awhile. And then go buy a crowbar and attempt to remove your head from your own ass.

You know, it's funny--I think people should be comfortable with who they are IF they are not raging asshats who make sweeping generalizations about the health of complete strangers. That's just my opinion, of course.

i'm actually, literally shaking, that made me so angry. that woman is lovely, and excuse my language but FUCK that. guilt me into using your product?! NO WAY.

here's the company that sells this (i've pasted the english site): http://www.itambe.com.br/cmi/Pagina.aspx?1332
here's how to contact them:
http://www.itambe.com.br/cmi/pagina.aspx?1285

Please do so. I just wrote them a VERY angry letter.

Cara - Your post is rather frustrating to me, as I specifically (twice!) that I didn't know whether the model was unhealthy or not. (And I certainly never used the word "gross"). PLEASE QUIT PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

Simone, I'm sorry that you are disabled. Obv. I was only talking about people physically able to exercise.

Nina, I would agree, men judge women more on their attractiveness. (Although don't some of nastiest comments come from other women?) But women judge men more on the size of their bank account.

In contrast, women are frequently valued by men for their appearance above all else, and they will be harassed if they don't meet men's expectations. It's true, because I've experienced it, as have a lot of women.

I agree with you on biased studies, my point is simply that you can't assume any state of equality among men or women or that the sexes will have the same desires or preferences. (But that's sort of outside the scope of this post here...)

You know, I recently went to the doctor and found out that I had gained close to 15 pounds since my last visit. I am still the same size, all of the weight I gained was muscle, and in light of my ideal blood pressure, my doctor did not seem worried in the least. Muscle, you know, is that stuff your body makes when you need to regularly lift heavy things and be otherwise useful (at least in places where it is necessary, like my job)? At 5'7" and 180 lbs, I would imagine that some people would classify me as "unhealthy" and maybe even "obese," but you know something? I could totally kick their asses.

Whoops, I made a cut and paste boo-boo there. The paragraph that begins "In contrast, women are frequently..." are Ninapendamaishi's thoughts, not mine.

"But women judge men more on the size of their bank account."

None of the women I know. But maybe in certain social circles...? I feel like the preference by straight men for women who look a certain way is more ubiquitess than the preference by straight women for rich men... (another shallow measurement, I would agree)

"I would imagine that some people would classify me as "unhealthy" and maybe even "obese," but you know something? I could totally kick their asses."

sasha you make me smile

[quote]Simone, I'm sorry that you are disabled. Obv. I was only talking about people physically able to exercise.[/quote]

No, it wasn't obvious. Oh, yeah, and even if you make exceptions for people with disabilities, I still have to assume that you're an asshole for requiring people to attain an arbitrary standard (working out a specific amount per day, regardless of their actual fitness and lifestyle needs) before you'll deem them worthy of having any kind of healthy self-esteem.

I don't need your sympathy that I can't meet your standards. I think that you've imposed them on others based on flawed assumptions and poor research (if you've done any). Please also remember that there is a form of anorexia called "Exercise Anorexia," and your comments are certainly a potent trigger for anyone who suffers from it.

Your comments reveal that you really haven't thought much about these issues beyond the fact that you find fat people unattractive and seem to think that exercise is the religion that will cure us from our "sloth." Neither of those perspectives really have any relevance to the issues that this thread set out to discuss, so I don't understand why you insist on sharing your views.

"(Although don't some of nastiest comments come from other women?) "

In my life, the nastiest comments have come from men (especially when I was in jr. high, before I developed to something loosely resembling our cultural ideal). I'll grant you though that some women are nasty to other women. It's still the overall culture that creates that environment though. That's why there is comparably little cattiness between women in women's colleges.

Men also harass other men a lot, especially if they don't conform to gender ideals, I'm aware of that too. It's all wrong, in my book.

Blacksheep - Why kill an otherwise interesting thread? That was just rude.

This has gone from a thread about sexist, offensive, patriarchal advertising to one attacking two guys. Personally, I have not really been offended by BlackSheep or Derek Rose's comments. And before you all start attacking me, I'll share a little bit about myself: I have been bulimic with anorexic tendencies for close to a decade. I'm also a lesbian and declared myself a feminist at the age of seven when I held up my walkman and said to my mom "Why isn't it called a walkwoman?"

Everyone keeps pointing out that no one cares about Derek and Sheep's opinions. Then why should we care about anyone's? How are supposed to learn and grow without hearing different opinions? The world is, fortunately and unfortunately, not a feminist paradise like this blog. I'm always interested to hear what non-feminists and/or straight guys have to say because I can't relate. I'm curious about everyone's opinions. This thread quickly started attacking and cursing others, which just makes everyone look bad.

As someone with an eating disorder, I am vain, judgmental, critical and shallow. But that's just the eating disorder part of me, and I fight those feelings every day and try to love my fat belly. The feminist part of me wants to accept fat and thin women alike, no matter what. But it really doesn't work like that. And I don't believe anyone who says they don't judge people who are fat. We all do it, no matter how progressive and "PC" you are. A problem of this thread is that everyone is falling over themselves to declare this women as sooo not even fat, when in reality, she is. She is beautiful and attractive and vibrant, but she is certainly chunky. But she carries it beautifully and appears confident. Let's be honest with people and with ourselves and quit pretending we haven't been at all affected by "fattism", racism, sexism, or homophobia. This probably sounds cruel or anti-feminist, but all I am asking for is for us to be honest with ourselves. Instead of pretending we have no prejudices, why not discuss how we can make that true?

Skinny doesn't necessarily equate out to being healthy. And the same goes for being overweight, it doesn't, by itself, mean that you aren't healthy. It reminds me of the woman saying that Jordin Sparks shouldn't win American Idol because she isn't a size 2 and therefore is unhealthy.
Everyone is entitled to have their own personal preferences and opinions. The problem lies when you use those preferences and opinions to demean other people.
I have two distinct emotions when I look at this advertisement. First was that I cannot believe that there is a woman who actually looks like the women I see in real life. And then I am just plain angry. There are women who are PERFECTLY healthy and look like the model in the ad. And to imply that ALL men don't like women who look like that woman is ridiculous.

I am a 22 year old woman and I have struggled with my weight for much of my life. I have learned that so little of my happiness has to do with whether I am a size 4 or a size 14. Judging someone by only their outward appearance or "the size of their bank account" is just screwing yourself out of being happy. They are both equally crippling.
And also, Derek... women get harassed regardless of whether they are overweight or what you consider healthy. In my experiences, women who are skinnier and fit into the perceived "norm", get harassed far more than women who are overweight.

A lot of times, I feel like men have no right to comment on advertisements like this. They aren't directed at them. They are meant to make us as women feel like crap if we don't fit into this narrow margin of what is acceptable. Like magically if I eat this yogurt, it will morph my body into some skinny Paris Hilton-esque one.
The methods used in most advertising strategies are meant to make someone feel as if they are not enough on their own. It is all ridiculous.

Fish,

I agree with your sentiment, with the exception of the last long post by blacksheep. I don't see how anyone could not be offended by that, and it embodied every sentiment you lament in your post. Thanks for the well thought out and amicable post.

fishwithfeet,

Those men you're defending didn't come here with an interest in learning, fishwithfeet, especially blacksheep. He proved it when I tried to engage with a real discussion, and blacksheep shut things the fuck down. Don't start blaming the other posters for that.

"A problem of this thread is that everyone is falling over themselves to declare this women as sooo not even fat, when in reality, she is."

Now see, we can't see her legs, so we don't know how tall she is. Certainly she might be above average in weight, but I'm not at all convinced she would fall outside the normal range on a BMI. (And even so, we talked about how innacurate that is)

Bryan,

I think part of the issue is, here we've got an ad that offends a lot of women, and that's why feministing posted the ad. Yet somehow these women are supposed to suppress their feelings of offense so as not to offend a couple of men who agree with the ad: how is that fairer? But that's the whole problem with our culture, is that in order to be polite you've got to not put down opinions expressing the status quo. Of course these guys are on the minority on this site -feminist women are in the minority in discussions every damn day of their lives. Women got upset, and they expressed their opinions. Instead of saying they don't have a right to those feelings, why don't you first try to understand /why/ they have those feelings. Of course, that learning curve can't be overcome in a half hour through reading a blog, the learning process would be longer...

the men's self-esteem is not being discussed or questioned by this ad, women's is. can't you understand the difference? don't you think one party has more right to feelings of anger as a result?

"Fish,

I agree with your sentiment, with the exception of the last long post by blacksheep."

I am at work and began my comment an hour and a half ago, got interrupted, and finished my comment an hour later without realizing BlackSheep had posted again. I find his new post incredibly offensive but also fascinating. People are fascinating, and I'm fascinated by this post.

"Those men you're defending didn't come here with an interest in learning, fishwithfeet, especially blacksheep."

I don't care whether or not these men I will never meet learn anything, nor am I defending them. I care about ME leaning something, and I certainly learned about two straight guys' perspective on this, which is interesting and new to me. Everyone is allowed to have opinions and well, I like hearin' 'em all.

A problem of this thread is that everyone is falling over themselves to declare this women as sooo not even fat, when in reality, she is. She is beautiful and attractive and vibrant, but she is certainly chunky.

Then you certainly have a warped idea of what is fat. I almost feel bad saying that, since you admit to previously struggling with an eating disorder. But I really don't know what else to say. Your post made me REALLY angry, fish. How do you define fat? Do you have measurements? A clothing size? Don't you dare throw the BMI at me, because the BMI is bullshit. Who gets to say what's fat? And what gives you the authority to say that this woman is?

Nina,

I certainly understand the anger. But the anger is directed at the ad, is it not? When men come to post here, do you want to encourage them to learn, or do you want to yell at them? I would not ask for unquestioned agreement, as that would teach nothing. This means that questions and comments must be accepted with tolerance and responded to with insight.

I think it comes down to whether this should be a place to vent or a place to discuss, and I think it can be both, as long as the venting is aimed at the ad, and not those that would like to discuss.