Double you. Tee. Eff.

Wow. Impressively offensive, indeed.

I'm honestly lost at who the market for a shirt like that is. Is there a really big market for "I'm a Dem who loves racism and sexism in the name of supporting on candidate over another"?

If you all aren't already aware of how terrifyingly sexist the tshirthell.com company is, I really urge you to check out some of their t-shirt slogans on their website.

Yuck.

Unfortunately, I can't say I'm surprised at the use of both racism and sexism to promote consumerism.

It's interesting how "hoes" reads completely unsexualized to me on this shirt. As in, I really read it as meaning "women" vs. meaning "sluts." I'm not sure what that means, it's just an observation.

Also, isn't it spelled "Hos"? Are they calling her a plow?

ho2 (hÅ?)
n., pl. hos.
Slang. A prostitute.

hoe (hÅ?) n.
A tool with a flat blade attached approximately at a right angle to a long handle, used for weeding, cultivating, and gardening.

Man, if you are going to insult someone, you have to at least spell the insult correctly.

Thank you, LizRiz, for not letting me be the only person to know the correct spelling of "hos" (pl), and think of the correct spelling the minute I saw this logo.

Well first things first. This shirt comes from T-Shirt Hell. A company that is well known throughout the years for very offensive tshirts. They make their living through controversy and people that are daring enough to walk around wearing their shirts.

Every shirt they make is meant to be offensive yet funny when you think about it. Hell they have a shirt that says "I like fried chicken and water melon too!"

In today's society of politically correctness it's nice to see that there are people out there that are willing to just punch that in the face. People are too god damn pansy when it comes down to something that might offend others.

I walked off the airplane at george bush international airport in houston wearing a shirt that says "I'm doing god's work because that lazy bastard never does it." You try going into god's country wearing that and see how well it's received.

Offensive shirts are funny. They start conversations. They allow you to express what you're pissed off about or you can wear them to make fun of what they're really talking.

With that, next time I see Samhi I'll wear my "pro" rape shirt :P

I looked at the shirts on their site and I kind of wish I didn't. Really, what kind of dude thinks a shirt that says "swallow or it's going in your eye" is funny? I would never go anywhere fucking near a guy wearing that shirt.

Irreverent shirts are funny...sexually threatening ones are not.

I too must agree: It's just plain clever and funny.

That expression has been around for a long time (in other words, it wasn't specifically coined for this pairing), and I think it's clear that t-shirt hell is not advocating that Clinton is a hoe.

I also see no racism present, except that black men sometimes refer to one another as "brother."

I live in the Bible belt. I have a shirt that says, "This is what a feminist atheist looks like." Pretty damned controversial for Oklahoma.

This? This is just gross.

Wow, nice way to offend EVERYONE.

They didn't invent the phrase, they just applied it to a situation that one wouldn't expect.

I found it amusing and I am not racist or sexist.

Many of the shirts are in poor taste, but that doesn't mean they are not funny.

More damaging than the shirts is the overreaction to what they say.

When people decry a message on a shirt that you probably will never even see anyone wearing, people who don't see it as a big deal just roll their eyes and tune out your message.

Shocking images sell? If I was a supporter of Obama over Clinton, I would buy the shirt. An image that 1. Shows my support of the candidate 2. Incorporates a slang term popular among a growing constituent group and 3. Provides some controversy in order to get noticed.

Its the perfect advertisement. I want to email tshirt hell to request a "Chicks before Dicks" with a reversed logo.

There's a big difference between being an asshole and having an asshole's sense of humor.

I will admit that the shirt is clever.

However, being clever does not absolve you of being racist and/or misogynist.

The phrase is a sexist one, period. The phrase used on this shirt is both racist and sexist. It's sexist because it is calling Senator Clinton a "ho" and presenting her femaleness as being the most important thing about her. It is also presenting the message that men should be loyal to men, regardless of the circumstances. It's racist because it's taking a phrase generally (though certainly not exclusively) used by black men and applying it to Senator Obama. It is asserting that Senator Obama's blackness is the most important thing about him and also ascribing views that one would (often incorrectly) associate with black communities to him.

This really shouldn't need explaining, though.

I agree with you, Cara, that it shouldn't need explaining. And yet, surprise surprise, here you are explaining it. And very well, I might add. Thanks for that.

I think the outrage that this shirt may cause might be linked to the familiarity of the phrase.

Being a college student, this phrase is common. "Bros before hos" is used, commonly, to mean friends before girlfriends (for males). "Chicks before Dicks" is the female equivalent.

This shirt is marketed towards people who know the phrase. Bro is applied to white or black. Ho is applied to even the most chaste of girls. Those that know the phrase know that the terminology is a clever, memorable way to impart an idea, and is in no way racist or sexist.

I did laugh, but this shirt certainly falls in the same category of "sick humor" as dead baby jokes.

Yes, Bryan, it is sexist. Very much so, in fact.

Let me get this straight. You're defending the phrase against charges of sexism by explaining that a word which means "prostitute" is used to describe even the most chaste of women.

Do you not see the irony in that? Even a little? It's sexist, dude. Accept it, and move on.

Ah, the craziness of language. A word is defined by common usage. My intention was to describe that if the usage of the phrase was ascribed to all women, not just prostitutes, its meaning (by those who know this usage and use it in these bounds) can no longer be attributed to prostitutes.

If your not around people who use the phrase in this way, I understand the confusion. I am encouraging people to look at the intention of the language (language is a way to convey thoughts / intentions). And I'm telling you, in common "college kid" rhetoric, from the brain of a "college kid", this is neither sexist or racist.

Believe it or not, people can say sexist things even when they don't think they are. Doesn't make them any less sexist. Saying, "Well we don't mean prostitute, we just mean woman" doesn't make it any better. In fact, it means that you've generalized a term for prostitutes into a term for all women, thus once again painting all women with the same brush (one which is not meant in a complimentary fashion).

You can try to defend it. You can try to say you don't mean it that way. You can try a lot of things. Know what? Still sexist.

And don't give me that "college student" crap. I work at a university, I hang around with a lot of students, and I'm often mistaken for one. Only the sexist guys say stuff like that.

I will admit that the shirt is clever.

However, being clever does not absolve you of being racist and/or misogynist.

Yes, this. Why is it so hard to understand? I mean, anyone who wears this shirt without the self-knowledge that they are an asshole is both an asshole and a moron. I don't have a problem with someone pulling some uber-meta post-post-ironic thing to wear this shirt as a statement on any number of things in any number of ways. I'd find it really funny, for example, to see a white woman wearing this shirt as a full-on tweak to the whole thing, in a similar way to a young guy wearing a t-shirt that says, "World's Sexiest Grandma."

But to act like the message of this t-shirt is not offensive, not racist and not sexist? That's just stupid and/or willfully blind. The wearer of the t-shirt can possibly do something non-sexist or non-racist with it, but that's only if the t-shirt's message is upended somehow. As it is, the t-shirt's main message is "the dude wearing me is a shitheel."

While Tshirt Hell does fall flat with me a lot of the time, this example included, didn't anybody find ANY of their shirts funny? "I should be in the kitchen"? The last supper being called a sausage fest? White flour?

Oh. My. God.

Using a word that "used" to mean prostitute to describe "all women" IS IN FACT SEXIST. I don't give a shit if your college buddies do or don't think that they hate women. You don't have to THINK that you hate women to actually hate women. At the very least, they value women LESS than they value men-- the phrase itself says so. You are valuing your bros-- all men, I presume, because I've never heard the term "bro" used to describe a woman-- over "hos" which you say means "women in general." THAT. IS. SEXIST.

This is not a feminism 101 blog. This is:

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/

Come back when you've learned something.

Where the fuck am I? Did I click onto Fark.com through a vortex?!

I was going to respond to maz but I've encountered a distinct dearth of expletives for the occasion. I will limit my saying that, even in today's society of "politically" correctness, I am willing (no, eager!) to just punch him in face.

That expression has been around for a long time

Yea, and it's been offensive that whole time.

I found it amusing and I am not racist or sexist.

Really? Do you have your non-racist, non-sexist certification? Can you scan it? 'Cause I'm finding that just a tad hard to believe.

More damaging than the shirts is the overreaction to what they say.

The tactics of the non-racist non-sexists just never change, do they? "If you want me (or anyone else) to listen to you, you'll have to limit yourself to saying things I already agree with. Any statements I found outlandish are not only not worth considering: they inherently discredit everything else you say!"

Shocking images sell?

Well, as long as it sells, it must be morally sound.

Ho is applied to even the most chaste of girls.

Oh, well, so long as the misogyny is generalized, that's fine then. WHAT?!

Those that know the phrase know that the terminology is a clever, memorable way to impart an idea, and is in no way racist or sexist.

By "know the phrase," you actually mean "don't recognize how sexist the phrase is." I "know the phrase" and yet am able to deduce that it is sexist and (at least in this context) racist.

This shit is so fucking absurd.

"Only the sexist guys say stuff like that."

I say it, but it seems a bit rash to accuse me of sexism based on one usage of a phrase, especially when I tell you that thats not the intention.

"In fact, it means that you've generalized a term for prostitutes into a term for all women, thus once again painting all women with the same brush (one which is not meant in a complimentary fashion)."

That assumes the that the derogatory meaning is not lost in the translation, which I believe it is. Much like most whites are not offended at being called "gringo", a word can change meaning, and does. You called me "dude" in a previous post. Dude used to mean "factitious man" in New York slang, but I doubt you intended insult.

Hm, do you think Senator Obama is going to order a truckload of these for his campaign workers to wear? Of course not. Because it's sexist and racist. I truly hope no supporters of his are so misguided as to walk around in one of these.

Actually, I do kind of intend insult. Not much liking what I'm seeing of you, and "dude" is one of the more polite things I could call you. Sexist asshole would be one of the less polite.

Men who aren't sexist assholes, see, are open to learning about when they're doing something wrong. Like, say, unthinkingly using a sexist phrase. Men who are sexist assholes simply revert to defending the phrase and trying to fast-talk their way around it. Of course, it never works.

Bryan, I do in fact accuse you of sexism, based NOT ONLY on your use of that phrase, but every single comment you have made on this thread. Maybe it's time to do some soul searching. Or to go learn some more about patriarchy and feminism, through the handy dandy link I've already provided you with. Or just stop telling a bunch of feminists what is and isn't sexist when you obviously haven't got the slightest clue.

Bryan, wow.

I would go on to explain the "bros before hoes" theory, and how it is demeaning to the opposite sex because it isolates them from what you consider to be a more evolved portion of society, but you seem like you have your heart set on being portrayed like a retarded bigot. So, play on motherfucker.

Hahahahaha. Thank you ikkin. I needed that.

And I'm telling you, in common "college kid" rhetoric, from the brain of a "college kid", this is neither sexist or racist.

And I am telling you that most "college kids" (particularly of the white, male variety) are really fucking sexist and really fucking racist.

Also, clue-by-four: Few people think they are racist or sexist. Most people are. Intention counts, but only so much.

And please stop acting like the Lorax of college students, mkay? I was there, too, but a few scant months ago. I remember it well.

I say it, but it seems a bit rash to accuse me of sexism based on one usage of a phrase, especially when I tell you that thats not the intention.

I'll probably going to live to regret this, but: I know you're sexist because you're male. (You know I'm racist because I'm white. Well, now you do.) And if you were trying to be minimally sexist you wouldn't use sexist language. And calling a woman, some women or all women "hos" is inherently sexist.

That assumes the that the derogatory meaning is not lost in the translation, which I believe it is.

Hey, did you notice that you're arguing with a slew of women who are offended? Gee, what the hell do you make of that?

I'm sorry to have offended. I often soul search, but I usually change my opinion based on rational argument, not repeated rhetoric.

Perhaps I should have stated this earlier, and so I will now. I certainly see how many people would find this extremely offensive. I am simply trying to convey that some people that are neither sexist nor racist may not, and I think the shirt was made to be this way. A little controversy goes a long way in advertising.

You know I think I would have been more shocked and appalled if it had came from an obama support website or something, but considering it's t-shirt hell I think the shirt is more satire than anything. You look at the media coverage so far and the you'd be lead to believe that the only reason anyone cares about these two canidates is because one is a black man and the other is a woman.

Bryan, I actually think it's great that you even visit a blog like this, and engage in a dialogue. You sound like a reasonably intelligent and curious guy, which makes it that much more painful to hear you willfully telling a bunch of women who are offended by the phrase that in fact it's not offensive. You say that the intention behind the use of a word is what matters, and that's not entirely true. It should not be the responsibility of the person who's being denigrated by a word or phrase to somehow look beyond the surface and see the user's true intentions of sweetness, light, and bonhomie. If someone's intention is not to offend, then that person stops using and defending words or phrases that they are told -- by several people! -- are offensive. He might not understand at first why it might be offensive, but he doesn't just dismiss the possibility out of hand. That's lazy thinking, which doesn't seem at all consistent with what you seem to want to be about.

Bryan, I actually think it's great that you even visit a blog like this, and engage in a dialogue. You sound like a reasonably intelligent and curious guy, which makes it that much more painful to hear you willfully telling a bunch of women who are offended by the phrase that in fact it's not offensive. You say that the intention behind the use of a word is what matters, and that's not entirely true. It should not be the responsibility of the person who's being denigrated by a word or phrase to somehow look beyond the surface and see the user's true intentions of sweetness, light, and bonhomie. If someone's intention is not to offend, then that person stops using and defending words or phrases that they are told -- by several people! -- are offensive. He might not understand at first why it might be offensive, but he doesn't just dismiss out of hand the possibility that it is. That's lazy thinking, which doesn't seem at all consistent with what you seem to want to be about.

I hate to tell you this, Bryan, but if you're not offended by sexism than you are, in fact, sexist. We're not tossing rhetoric at you, we're using logical argument. The fact that you only see rhetoric goes a long way to show how entrenched you are in your own way of thought, and in defending your right to this sort of sexism. That's the sort of thing you ought to be thinking about.

I am simply trying to convey that some people that are neither sexist nor racist may not, and I think the shirt was made to be this way.

Yes, but this statement only works if the non-sexist, non-racist person is purposefully upending the message of the shirt, which is both sexist and racist. If a person wears this t-shirt in a way so as to indicate his or her obvious intention that the message of the shirt in fact speaks the opposite of what they intend, then the wearer can speak to some non-racist or non-sexist intent. But if the message of the shirt is endorsed along either or both discriminatory axes, then the wearer has indulged in the type of discrimination endorsed thereby.

Bryan, we know that many people exist with their heads trapped in the sand. That doesn't mean that this shirt isn't racist and sexist.

And Sandanista is right. I didn't even know that the world was so full of sexist, racist pricks, male and female, until I went to college. And I'm still in college, and still sick to death of dealing with pretentious little asswipes who can't step outside of their narrow perspective and show enough fucking EMPATHY to see how things affect someone who isn't you or someone exactly like you.

Here's a hint: normalizing the words "bitches" and "hos" does not take away the misogyny at their core, especially when used by males. It simply lets guys like you think it's ok to use them, which then perpetuates hatred of women throughout our culture. See "gay" and "retards" for other examples of this behaviour. Maybe you'll get it one day when your girlfriend tries to fill her birth control prescription and the pharmacist won't do it because he doesn't help "hos."

And no, Jessi, T-Shirt Hell lost any chance of ever amusing me when I saw that "I like my women battered" shirt on their site months ago.

Ankathry,

I visit the blog exactly for that reason, I enjoy extending my boundaries. I have found that in general, you are an intelligent and kind group. I regret that there seem to be exceptions to this. I understand that one of those was due to a case of mistaken identity. However, as much as I have attempted to stay away from any accusations or name calling in this thread, I have been repeatedly told I am racist, sexist, and generally that I don't think about my positions. Again, these all serve to insult me, but do not debase my thoughts.

Kimmy, you have provided logical arguments, you also provide rhetoric. I am referring to repeatedly referring to my thoughts and me as sexist, either in accompaniment with, or instead of explanation.

Again I must say, I see why people find this offensive. I would never use this terminology in front of someone who would find this offensive or who might. I would and do use it in front of people who would not, and I don't see anything wrong with that. I think of it the same way I do as with curse words. I would never curse in front of my mother, or a complete stranger. To my friends, curse words are tame.

You're absolutely right, Bryan. If you're saying sexist things or defending sexist ideas, we absolutely shouldn't call you on it by using the word sexist.

Just as women who are trying to prosecute men for rape shouldn't use the word rape, right?

After all, both the term rapist and sexist are offensive. Who cares whether they're accurate?

Oh, wait. Now I'm confused. You were against the judge banning the term rape. Hmmmm. Bit inconsistant, don't you think?

Wait a second, Bryan. You're saying that using a term that many people find offensive is okay, as long as you're around other people who don't find the term offensive? To me, that sounds an awful lot like "Well, sure, some people think it's offensive to call women cunts. But it's okay as long as I only refer to women as cunts around other men who have no problem with that." (Yes, I'm well aware that you haven't called any women cunts on this site. But now that we know you wouldn't because we'd be offended, how do we know you're not saying it elsewhere?)

Cursing in public or in front of your mother (if she's the kind who doesn't like cursing) is rude. Referring to women at large or as individuals as "hos" is sexist.

"Curse words" and "sexist language" are not the same. I don't use racial slurs in front of my white friends. I don't make fun of Jews in front of Christians. And so men surely shouldn't think that it's okay to make sexist remarks about women just because they aren't around.

I give up.

Jen has it 100% correct.

The T-shirt combines racism and sexism in a putrid little blend.

And it's not particularly clever, or original, or funny, really. It's roll-your-eyes pathetic.

None of which means I want to see it bant, or anyone sued, or whatever.

Jessi, I actually do like some of their tees. I want to get the "Sausage Fest" t-shirt.

Kimmy,

I think you are unfairly linking two of my positions. There is no debate as to what rape is. I think the argument here is whether a statement is sexist or not, so labeling an idea as sexist is begging the question. In turn, calling me sexist in response to an argument is an ad hominem attack. Neither does anything to further the discussion.

As far as using sexist language in the company of those who do not find it offense, you all make valid points. But I do not advocate that. I simply say that using language that may be considered sexist in one circle is fine in a circle that does not consider it sexist. The offensiveness is not the point (as sexist language is not offensive to sexists) the sexist(ness?) is. If I had black friends that took no offense at being called historically derogatory terms, I wouldn't hesitate to call them it if that was the norm of the social situation.

Bryan, you don't mind if I only call you a sexist, racist douche behind your back, do you? I promise not to do it to your face, or around anyone who knows you -- only behind your back. Cool? Smooches!

The guy that runs t-shirt hell was once poisoned, and oddly still keeps the site running.

Ekf,

You can call me adolf if it makes you happy.

(I

You know, for a while there I thought you might actually be interested in learning something, Bryan. But the fact that you're basically refusing to listen to any of us as we try to explain this to you shows me I was wrong. You're just another man who, while he might agree with some of our positions, still thinks he knows better about sexism and it's related shit than we women do.

I'll be ignoring you now. I'm moving apartments this week, and my frustration and annoyance levels are both high enough already.

Bryan, if calling your friends historically derogatory terms is the norm of the social situation, I think you either need to find new friends or new social situations.

(Exception: historically derogatory terms that your group has reclaimed. My friends and I can refer to each other as dykes. When we do so in mixed company, it has to come with context for the heteros so they know what's going on. Because you said "black friends" rather than "other black people," I'm going to go ahead and assume you're white. Thus this exception does not apply to your hypothetical situation.)

Funny, I'm a female college student and if someone called me a ho, I'd assume they were implying that I was either overly promiscuous or dressed like a prostitute, regardless of their "intention". Because that's what the word means. In any context. It's a way to marginalize women and reduce them to the lowest common denominator that men can think of, i.e, a prostitute. It makes it easier for men to dismiss what women say, how they feel, and anything they experience because "you know how hos are". And Bryan, I'm sad to say that despite your good intentions and efforts, you are dismissing what women are telling you because you think that you just know better than we do. That makes you sexist.

I wholeheartedly believe that you and your friends use the phrase in what you perceive as non-offensive ways, but everytime you refer to a woman as a ho, you take away a little bit of her credibility. It's been done to me, it's been done to friends of mine, it's been done to women in the media. It's the easiest way for someone to undermine a woman's position, no matter what the argument. So while I believe that you have nothing but good intentions at heart, there's a reason the road to hell is paved with those good intentions.

But who cares what I think? I'm just a trick ass ho. (Been called that, for real, to my face, by a man who probably thought there was nothing offensive about that word.)

Bryan, I agree that name-calling doesn't get anyone very far; calling someone an asshole doesn't do anything to advance a discussion. On the other hand, people aren't out of line in saying "your arguments are sexist and here's why," and there's been plenty of that going on here.

So, w/r/t to your thoughts about where to use "bros before hos": I disagree with anyone using the phrase at all (especially once they know it's offensive to the "hos" being referenced) because it perpetuates the misogyny imbedded in the language. I don't think swearing works as an analogy; your mom might not like it, but the word "fuck" (for example) isn't a slur on her gender. Let me ask you this: would you use a racial slur - or hell, tell a racial joke - in private? When no one who might be offended is around? My guess, and correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't know you, is no. It just... it sets a bad example for someone who knows that a certain term is offensive to use it; it validates more ignorant points of view.

Finally, I have to agree with the commenters who have pointed out that just about everyone is sexist and racist (I would add classist, too). These -ists are ingrained in us by our culture from birth, and (I believe) the best that any of us can do is a) realize that our actions or beliefs may be informed by bigoted assumptions of which we might not even be aware, and b) work to recognize and combat such impulses via education and the help of others (even the name-callers) who point them out.

So, like I said, I appreciate your coming here to engage, and I hope that your boundaries are in fact getting extended. It's an admirable goal.

Kimmy,

I'm sorry to hear that, I really didn't intend to upset anyone. I hope your move goes well.

Mk,

You are correct, I am white. To tell the truth, while I do have black friends, they don't refer to themselves derogatorily. But I see no problem with Eminem using the N-word when talking to his friends, and in many areas, this is the societal norm.

So my basic argument is this: If the term is used by someone who doesn't mean it offensively in reference to someone who doesn't find it offensive and to an audience that also does not find it offensive and infers that the speaker does not use it in that meaning, it is not offensive.

Oh, and the last post was supposed to say "I heart Godwin" at the end. I guess my little heart emoticon didnt get through.

Sorry for the double post, posting seems to take so long, and I miss so much!

Genny,
My depiction of "college kids" referred to the term "bros before hos" not "ho" in general. I don't use that term alone, because the intent of the word would be different.

"you are dismissing what women are telling you because you think that you just know better than we do"
I have never dismissed an argument because "I thought I knew better", especially due to gender. Take Ankathry for example, she puts forth wonderful arguments without insulting me, and I try to respond in turn. Its lovely!

Ankathry,

You make some excellent points. And your right, speech like this or racist jokes can be bad examples, and I would never use them in front of those I thought might misunderstand me. But sometimes even racists jokes are quite clever, and, as long as have little doubt it will ingrain racism in those that hear them, they can be shared. Thats faux pas, I know.

And your right about the inherent "-isms" people have. I do my best to recognize those and rid myself of them. Your comments have definitely made me reconsider my positions, and while they haven't changed, I understand others points better because of them. Thank you.

There is no debate as to what rape is.

See, that's simply not true. You would think there wouldn't be, but there is. Her eyes said "yes." We've had sex before. We're married. She went to my room/she got in my bed. She was dressed provocatively. She's a ho. None of this excuses or mitigates raping a woman in any way, but many patriarchy-addled brains think it does. No, really.

Similarly, I can't fucking comprehend how in the fucking world someone could think that "ho" isn't sexist. But, hey, there you are, playing a [significantly less disgusting, I'll grant you] variation on the same old tune.

I simply say that using language that may be considered sexist in one circle is fine in a circle that does not consider it sexist.

A circle that does not consider the word "ho" sexist is a circle of sexists. They should not be encouraged.

(as sexist language is not offensive to sexists)

Yes. Exactly.

I wouldn't hesitate to call them it if that was the norm of the social situation.

Fine, but sexism is the norm of our social situation and that's what you're adhering to.

But I see no problem with Eminem using the N-word when talking to his friends, and in many areas, this is the societal norm.

As regards race and gender, the "societal norm" is oppression of women and people of color. If you are primarily interested in adhering to societal norms, you will wind up complicit in said oppressions, sooner rather than later.

Reclamation of offensive words is to be performed by the groups the words were used to oppress, not the groups who used them to be oppressive. You don't know what it means to be called a ho and you therefore do not get to decide how offensive it is or is not. Ditto "the N-word" and ditto Eminem.

If the term is used by someone who doesn't mean it offensively in reference to someone who doesn't find it offensive

BUT WE CLEARLY DO FIND IT OFFENSIVE! You specified earlier that "ho" is being used to refer to all women. You have before you an array of women who are offended.

an audience that also does not find it offensive and infers that the speaker does not use it in that meaning

The big assumption coded here is that people don't find the word "ho" offensive because they know that it is meant non-offensively. Please, refer to your own earlier statement: "sexist language is not offensive to sexists." Finding "ho" inoffensive is not the mark of a post-sexist thought process, but of an explicitly sexist one. It signifies approval of and/or ignorance of and/or apathy towards and/or amusement about how women are treated as sexual objects, judged for their sexual choices and denigrated simply for being women. Any person who has a true sense of what sexism, as a social force, is and what it does to women would not find this hateful term acceptable.

When "ho" is no longer used to mitigate domestic, sexual and other kinds of violence against women, then we can talk about intent.

Oh, and if you don't want to be on the receiving end of ad hominem attacks then DON'T CALL ME A HO.

You make some excellent points. And your right, speech like this or racist jokes can be bad examples, and I would never use them in front of those I thought might misunderstand me. But sometimes even racists jokes are quite clever, and, as long as have little doubt it will ingrain racism in those that hear them, they can be shared.

*bangs head methodically against desk*

Sandinista,
I don't believe I ever have called you anything of the sort.
Perhaps I can clarify my position with a question: Would "Friends before girlfriends" be acceptable as a statement? (assuming the typical not-so-serious relationship, and not any kind of long term commitment).

Again, if I mean it to convey exactly that question, and those that hear it get that meaning and nothing more, aside from the "setting a bad example" argument discussed above, is it sexist, and why?

Cara,

De gustibus non est disputandum? Sorry, I do understand the frustration.

I'm not Sandinista, but I think that "friends before girlfriends" is fine, in most situations. As long as they're not serious emotional relationships (and both parties are aware of this), I in fact think that's a fairly good motto to have. If my husband went around saying that his friends were more important than me, though, I'd have a problem. [not that I don't want him to have friends or that I don't want those friends to be an important part of his life. But it's disrespectful to rate me up against them, especially if I'm "losing."]

It also doesn't imply that all of your friends are male. And it doesn't imply that all men should come before all women-- merely that, if I'm interpreting you correctly, you should put the feelings of your good friends over a woman you hardly know but would like to hook up with.

You have claimed that you are not racist. But you admit to sometimes telling racist jokes. That is a racist act, no matter what the context, unless it's "want to hear how racist people are? here's a joke some racist asshole told me. isn't he an asshole? i hope i never have to speak to him again." Period. You are ignoring your white privilege, as well as your male privilege, and simultaneously claiming that you are aware of them. If you were aware of your privilege, you would recognize that telling a racist joke is never a neutral act. I don't know what else to say to you, except to again refer you to the Feminism 101 website.

Bryan, you know I respect you and all, but I gotta go w/ Sandinista on this. Especially her last long paragraph. Indulging in sexist or racist language is... indulging in sexism or racism. And it's not harmless, no matter who you're around. And to me, it's disingenuous to argue that something is inoffensive if no one is around to be offended by it -- that whole tree-falling-in-a-wood thing. Of course it makes a sound. Plus it conjures uncomfortable images of exclusive gloaty groups chuckling amongst themselves at the hypersensitivity of the masses. Also plus, you can't be sure that just because a member of the group being targeted is with you and appears to be OK with your language -- you can't assume s/he is. Being in such a situation can be very uncomfortable -- maybe s/he's internalized the bigotry, in which case you're only digging their hole of self-loathing deeper for them; or maybe s/he doesn't want to risk social retribution or dismissal by speaking up, a fear that is pretty understandable given the larger group's usage of denigrating slang to begin with.

Yes, Cara, I think you understand my point exactly. "Bros before hos" to my friends and I, means exactly that. I am sorry if it comes off offensive to anyone else, and would never intend it that way, but the fact that it is ingrained into my social surrounding means I will continue to use it. I would look silly saying "Friends before girlfriends", when people equate a common phrase with that same meaning.

"If the term is used by someone who doesn't mean it offensively in reference to someone who doesn't find it offensive and to an audience that also does not find it offensive and infers that the speaker does not use it in that meaning, it is not offensive."

Maybe it's just me, but that seems like an awful lot of work. Wouldn't it be easier to just, you know, not say offensive things?

Regardless of the "social norms," as a white person I'm never going to feel comfortable referring to someone with the N-word. Likewise, there are a lot of wonderful straight people who are never going to feel comfortable calling me a dyke. I think that's as it should be.

Whether or not "friends before girlfriends" is an acceptable sentiment (and I think Cara sums that up quite nicely) isn't the issue here, because the company in question didn't design a t-shirt that says "friends before girlfriends." They're using precise language, and several here have outlined the reasons why that language is racist and sexist.

"Ho" does not suddenly become a neutral term if it's used among people who don't believe it to be offensive, just as other slurs and epithets aren't magically stripped of their meaning. Meaning can be subverted among in-groups, yes, and words can be used in jest or ironically--but this does not erase the baggage associated with those words.

Cara,
Could you explain "You are ignoring your white privilege, as well as your male privilege, and simultaneously claiming that you are aware of them." I'm not sure I understand entirely what you mean.

Ankathry,
I'm not going to think you don't respect me just because you disagree. I appreciate the constructive argument. I agree, you can never know for sure someone won't be offended, but thats a chance I'm willing to take. I have no problem with controversial language or humour (as my postings here will definitely show!). If I make a few people mad, I'm sorry for that, but if they talk to me (as you and others here have) perhaps they will better understand me, and not be quite so offended. Perhaps they will change my mind on the matter.

I am sorry if it comes off offensive to anyone else, and would never intend it that way, but the fact that it is ingrained into my social surrounding means I will continue to use it. I would look silly saying "Friends before girlfriends", when people equate a common phrase with that same meaning.

Bullshit. If you understand what they're saying, but continue to use what you now admit is a sexist/racist saying, then you're not fucking sorry.

Don't say you're sorry when you're clearly not. If you were really sorry, you'd say "Wow, I hadn't thought about it that way before, I'll work on modifying my behavior so that I'm not taking part in a racist/sexist act."

You don't fix racism and sexism by saying "Huh. Yeah, you're right, that is sexist. Oh well, I was raised that way, so, you know, I'm just gonna keep doing it."

That you'd prefer to look racist/sexist over silly is pretty damning, personally.

Sorry for the multiple post, but I thought I might let all those discussing this with me know I am leaving my access to high speed internet for the day, but will certainly check up on the thread tomorrow.

To those I've offended, my apologies.

To those that provide constructive argument, my thanks.

When you call women hos, you call women hos. I am a woman. QED.

This phrase is sexist because, outside of reclaiming, all use of the word "ho" is sexist. It is a sexist word. No amount alleged good will can change that.

Yes, Cara, I think you understand my point exactly.

Yea, but you haven't understood at all. Your phrase doesn't mean "exactly" what "friends before girlfriends" does. Did you read what Cara wrote?

It also doesn't imply that all of your friends are male. And it doesn't imply that all men should come before all women

"Bros before hos," in contrast, does imply those things. And if you and your friends don't mean those things then you shouldn't be using that phrase.

I am sorry if it comes off offensive to anyone else, and would never intend it that way, but the fact that it is ingrained into my social surrounding means I will continue to use it. I would look silly saying "Friends before girlfriends", when people equate a common phrase with that same meaning.

Well, at least we've gotten past the BS posturing. This is really what it comes down to: you don't want to put in the effort to speak respectfully. Moreover, you especially don't want to look like some kind of sensitive feminist type in front of your friends (who would never say anything intentionally sexist, mind you). You just don't care enough. Well, that's not unusual; that's extremely consistent with the social mores you continually reference as a poorly-chosen moral compass. I would only ask that you then not take umbrage when we call it like we see it.

I also think that "Friends before girlfriends" is a lovely compromise; as Cara pointed out, the language is no longer fraught. And as MK pointed out, the language is what's at issue here.

And yeah, you'd sound wacky using it among your friends, but... well, take one of my many weaknesses. Most days I don't wanna take the el, I wanna drive! In the car, get to control the commute, I can actually hear my music, and there's no one's morning breath to deal with but mine. But I take the slow, noisy, stinky el anyway, because otherwise I'm contributing to global warming. You know?

I also think that "Friends before girlfriends" is a lovely compromise; as Cara pointed out, the language is no longer fraught. And as MK pointed out, the language is what's at issue here.

And yeah, you'd sound wacky using it among your friends, but... well, take one of my many weaknesses. Most days I don't wanna take the el, I wanna drive! In the car, get to control the commute, I can actually hear my music, and there's no one's morning breath to deal with but mine. But I take the slow, noisy, stinky el anyway, because otherwise I'm contributing to global warming. You know?

racist? no.

Kudos to Bryan for keeping his cool and not defeating the entire premise of this discussion through snarky comments and over-emotional hyperbole (because what's the use of trying to defeat one sexist stereotype when you actively perpetuate another?) Because frankly, this is just a t shirt, and I'm starting to wonder if I'm one of the few who upon first glance laughed at it, not because I like making fun of minorities (as a bi-racial woman, it seems a bit self-defeating) but because I thought it was a clever social critique of American politics in general. Obama DOES have an edge over Clinton for some voters because he is male, just as Clinton DOES have an edge over Obama for some voters because she is white.

Yes, people who let differences like that decide the way they vote are irrational and prejudiced, but acknowledging that these people exist (and in short order, making fun of them) is not. At this point, the seething and gnashing of teeth being displayed here makes me wonder that as a devotee of satire, I'm supposed to turn in my feminist club card (if I had one--which, if I did, would be tounge in cheek as well.) Its like child-rights activists burning copies of Swift's A Modest Proposal for its ageism and ethic prejudices. Sheesh.

Also, as a side note: no one seems to recognize that as two very affluent presidential candidates, who due to their class and status are most likely well insulated from the equality issues that affect minorities in lower wage brackets, be called out in the general parlance that they would otherwise not be subjected to. I can't wait until they're running together--I'd love the BFF shirt...

Personally I am not worried about this shirt, because I know people who wear it in public will get the shit kicked out of them in most places in America. It's the equivalent of wearing a swastika or a white pride logo. Lets let people wear it just to show how appalling American conservatism really is. Yes, most Republicans are not racist or misogynistic, but probably 95-99% of racist and misogynistic people vote Republican.

Your friends might think you're silly, but choosing to stick with "bros before hos" is going to make a lot of other people think you're stupid and sexist. Obviously, it's your pick. Maybe you need some new friends?

You claim to not be racist. Do you know what "white privilege" and "male privilege" mean? I ask that seriously, because you said you didn't follow. If not, look it up. You seem to be stating here that you're NOT racist and NOT sexist. And yet you admit to telling racist jokes and using sexist language in "benign" ways. That shows that you are completely ignorant to your white and male privilege, or think that you're somehow above it. You're not. No one is.

Crys, I think a lot of us appreciate satire. Feminism and a love of mockery are by no means mutually exclusive. But effective satire must be read as such. I really don't think the issue here is that all us angry feminists can't take a joke. We can. We can also call a joke out when it's rooted in racism and sexism.

You're mistaking prejudice for satire, Crys. Moreover, satire does not absolve its creators of social responsibility; it can go too far and it is wont to be somewhat problematic.

Hi Mk, what I'm trying to communicate that upon viewing the shirt, it's ironic--by calling out the inherent racism and sexism in everday society and particularly in politics, by identifying it (my one defense in all this is that I cannot imagine anyone wearing it seriously. I mean, really, if you're so virulently sexist/racist to believe that either of the candidates are unsuitable due to their sex or skin colour, why would you then parade around in such a shirt in the first place? I never seen a mysognist wear a Margaret Thatcher t shirt.) Lets be honest, the only people we'll probably see wearing it are clueless hipsters in urban areas, but thats beside the point.

Of course, call out the mean-spirited, purely motivated by greed or spite prejudice jokes--but also be able to recognize when a joke can have a double meaning: the overall satiric message does carry. one should not underestimate the intelligence of the citizenry.

I can't believe I've written so much about a t shirt. there must be more important things to do.

Have to say, I'm highly amused by the defense of the phrase "bros before hos" on the grounds that it "just" means "friends before girlfriends," as if that sentiment weren't itself steeped in machismo and immaturity.

Crys, I do understand your point, but I don't think we should give this particular t-shirt company that much credit. Have you looked at their offerings? This is just a sampling:

International Age of Consent Tour
If a fat girl falls in the forest, do the trees laugh?
2 drinks away from girl on girl action
For English press 1; para Espanol move to Mexico and press 2

This company does not specialize in irony or satire. They willfully profit off of anti-immigrant, misogynist, racist, homophobic, fatphobic taglines. Some of it may be clever (two spoons in bed, with one thinking "Can't we just fuck for once?") but it's still vile.

Lets be honest, the only people we'll probably see wearing it are clueless hipsters in urban areas, but thats beside the point.

What, it wasn't enough for this thread to be full of racism and sexism, but now we have to throw hipsterism in there as well? You're obviously not aware of your unhipster privilege.

*playful wink, please don't hurt me*

Some times the comments on this site are endlessly frustrating, as a biracial female who does consider herself a feminist I like the stories featured here, but I find many of the comments difficult to deal with.

If anyone doesn't understand why young women shy away from calling themselves feminits they only need to read the responses that were aimed at Byran to find the answer.

Everytime someone says something that the group doesn't agree with they are immediately accused of being sexist or racist.

Is calling a woman a Hoe sexist, yes. But in the context of the general phrase Bros before Hoes I don't believe it is meant in this way. And people can agree to disagree.

I think that Hoes is used because it rhymes with Bros and makes for a catchy phrase. Much like Chicks before Dicks.

If some people want to use any of the watered down versions of the phrase that have been proposed its their choice, but realize that some people can make offensive jokes or references with out being sexist or racist.

This is from Tshirthell.com, right? Their whole site is full of "offensive" shirt making fun of any and everything. It's all meant in an ironic tone, and when people get all huffy and offended and write to them, they're made fun of in the next month's subscriber email. Personally, I have a "You can't have manslaughter without laughter" shirt, as well as my trusty "A woman's place is in the kitchen" one, featuring an old fashioned font and a woman in an apron. If you target one specific group to make jokes about and consider the rest to be sacred or too much, that's when things get racist or sexist. It's "equal oppurtunity offenders" that have it right, they don't take a single thing seriously when they're joking. No one is protected from ridicule. That's how I live. I see everyone on an equal playing field.

I can see how more sensitive people could take this joking the wrong way, though. With this shirt, it's making fun of the huge deal everyone is making that there's a black guy and a woman as top contenders for running for president. It's made funnier by the stupid over used tagline. Shirts like this may be in bad taste to wear in public when you don't know who's going to get offended and start cussing at you, but that doesn't make them any less funny. Sometimes it's good to embrace a stupid stereotype and turn it around to something funny, showing how ridiculous the stereotypes are.

See, the problem with "ironic" racism and sexism is that it presumes everyone to realize how stupid and wrong the stereotypes are, and therefore ripe for ridicule. Problem is, racism and sexism are NOT over. Not even close. So it's not funny, it's offensive. And when people who are not a part of the group being "ironically" mocked where this kind of shit, it really shows how completely unaware of their privilege they are.

And I'm sick of being told that, whenever I'm offended by something, it's a "joke" that I just don't "get." I can get the joke and think that it's not funny. And a joke can be racist and sexist, even if it THINKS it's not.

Cara, Sandanista, Ankathry, and mk - just wanted to say your points are all awesome. If you're feeling frustrated for wasting your powers of debate on someone who's not interested, I just wanted to let you know that you all put what I was feeling about this into words and I really appreciate it. Bryan may not be interested in making the effort to change his offensive behaviour, but this feminist feels better equipped to argue these points in future debates. Thank you all!

Thanks :)

The other issues have been well and truly gone over, but with respect to the lameness of "friends before girlfriends" compared to the rhyming version, how about "mates before dates"?

I know "mates" is more British Commonwealth English than American, but you guys ate up the Crocodile Hunter, why not sound a bit Australian? It's useful for men and women arguing for in-group loyalty as well.

I'm closing comments on this thread because frankly, it's too exhausting. I'm happy to have people disagree, but this is out of control.

It honestly never occurred to be that there'd be a debate about this. "But it's mainstream" or "but I think it's funny: are not acceptable excuses.

Cara, Sandinista, Ankathry and others, thanks for what you say. But I will not watch this devolve into another round of "don't be so sensitive" racist and sexist bullshit.