I know I shouldn't give this any light, but I just had to because sometimes things--so perfectly-- capture some of the darkest corners of Western patriarchy. A friend just sent me a link she found with the search terms "Vietnamese women." It is attached to a bigger site called No Marriage, a site for why men should not get married. Let's just say the reasons offered are not because marriage is an inequitable, homophobic and sexist tradition.
It is because American women are aggressive (raceless?) bitches and Vietnamese women are quiet, subservient and, you know, stay in their place.
An American woman has several fundamental problems that will never go away and that will get much worse a few years after she is married:1. Her inherent anti-male bias and pre-occupation with fairness that was drilled into her at high school, college, and through the media. Her constant confrontations and trying to prove herself and to make a point.
2. Her self-centeredness, her ridiculously high expectations, her sense of entitlement, her high-maintenance, superficial, and stuck up attitude, her snootiness and her sense of superiority. This "princess" syndrome means that she will always think that she is better than you, and that she deserves and she is entitled to whatever she wants from you.
3. Her general mental instability and psychological disorders.
4. Her using sex as a weapon and reward to get things.Vietnamese women generally don't have any of these problems. Marrying an American woman simply does not make sense. The ONLY reason men stay with American women is because they did not have enough exposure to Vietnamese women. Any man who spent a few months in Asia will not even look at American women again.
I will not state the obvious and give anymore credence to the specific arguments. What is amazing is that this sounds ridiculous to us, but in some circles this is an acceptable narrative (in fact in a lot of circles). A type of racism that just falls between the cracks and outside of dominant racial discourse, aka, the seemingly harmless "desires" of the Asiophile (white boy with the Asian fetish usually found saying things like, "if you want to get laid, Thailand is the place to go!").
I would like to thank this idiot for giving me the opportunity to talk about one of my biggest peeves.
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Wow. That web site is really scary! I felt sick to my stomach reading it.
Our "preoccupation with fairness..." Haha. We just accept our place as inferiors.
Why don't they just buy themselves Real Dolls?
Funny. That's why I don't wanna marry an American man.
If you want another example of this you should listen to Tom Leykis, only he says to marry hispanic women instead. He's a popular radio talk show host in southern california.
Whoa. Have these guys actually been to Viet Nam recently?
I'm an American ex-pat living and working in Ho Chi Minh City, and their perception of Vietnamese women doesn't even come close to the women I know here.
You know what we (and our friends) call these guys here? Losers Back Home.
Great post. I always encountered these jerks in Japan. You could always spot one of the fetishists because they'd always say things like, "I want a Japanese woman because they aren't (horrible) like American/British/Russian/etc women."
That website is as horrifying as the personals in foreigner publications in Japan. You'd always see at least 10 personals a month that were along the lines of: "I'm a white married man seeking a Japanese woman for friendship or more." Yep, the "or more" is a pretty good indicator that some Western businessman thinks he can just appear in a different culture for a few days and try to get his rocks off by not only disrespecting the culture, but also by cheating on his wife. It's disgusting and creates stereotypes that are used to insult foreigners/immigrants who are in Japan for genuine reasons. Not only that, but it only shows how badly some individuals view Asian women as something for them to consume and not to respect.
Oops, "We just CAN'T accept..."
www.blowmeuptom.com
Is the address if you want to listen online in the afternoon.
2. Her self-centeredness, her ridiculously high expectations, her sense of entitlement, her high-maintenance, superficial, and stuck up attitude, her snootiness and her sense of superiority. This "princess" syndrome means that she will always think that she is better than you, and that she deserves and she is entitled to whatever she wants from you.
Funny... I was thinking that perfectly describes the men who run that site. They are completely self-centered and feel they are superior. I suppose this is called the... "prince syndrome"? Or... asshole syndrome?
I don't think these guys have anything to worry about. No intelligent women in this country would really want to marry any guy like this and, frankly, less women would want to marry American men after reading that.
Zoje: That's what we call them in Japan too. :)
LBH for short.
I'd love to see some examples of what american men but in foreign magazines and hopefully some of the chewing out that they get from that country.
It is funny to me, having lived in Japan for a while, seeing the way Japanese women are perceived and how they actually are.
The stereotype out here seems to be that they are doormats and will do whatever their husband wants. The stereotype over in Japan is that this behaviour ends with marriage and they're tyrants in the household after that.
Neither are entirely true, certainly not for all cases, but the two American friends of mine who married Japanese women... well, one of them had a pretty good job; his wife handled the finances and gave him a $100 a month allowance. Tending more toward the Japanese view of Japanese women than the American.
Had one Japanese woman tell me that foreign men thought Japanese women were like taxis; they're yellow and when foreign men snap their fingers, they appear. The reason for this convoluted sentence: Japanese women know how foreign men view them. At least, they do if they spend any time around foreigners. They're not any likelier than people in any other country to be stupid.
I read a messageboard for westerners who teach English abroad, and unfortunately some men who go to southeast Asia unfortunately feel that way. I've also heard that some Korean and Japanese men often deliberately refuse to date women in their own country, and instead go to southeast Asia, because female citizens of their countries are "too liberated." :(
Yup, one of my biggest pet peeves too, Samhita. Add that to the whole "Latin women are fiery in the sack", and that pretty much sums up my sexual ethnic "background". Fuck off.
However, after browsing the site (I couldn't help myself), I have to say that this is so ridiculous that I can't even find anything to say:
"99.9% of the single women in this country are not even marriageable.
Take away the women beyond the marriageable age (over 30).
Take away the fat women.
Take away the ugly women.
Take away the psycho Zoloft / Prozac women.
Take away the raped women.
Take away the women with STDs / HIV.
Take away the women who can't cook.
Take away the women who already have kids.
And you've eliminated 99.9% of the single women in this country."
How about this--take away the fat guys, the ugly guys, the Zoloft/Prozac guys, the guys with small penises (ANYTHING less than 7 inches is UNACCEPTABLE), take away the rapists, take away the guys with STDs/HIV, and...yeah. You've eliminated 99.99% of "marrigeable" men in America.
Obviously the stereotypes about Japanese women and Asian women in general aren't true. It makes me feel a lot better to read all your posts and know that not everyone thinks like those asshats who publish that website and others like it.
Not to get all melodramatic on you all, but this is the kind of crap that really made me frightened of men when I was growing up. I'm Asian American and, for the most part, the image that Western males are given of Asian women is of the servile sex object.
I've had male friends tell me how they've always wanted to date an Asian girl because we're supposedly so tolerant, easy to get along with, and good in bed.
This kind of crap makes me sick to my stomach and led me to distrust men for most of my dating life--constantly wondering, "Are you one of those people who just like Asians, or do you actually like ME?" Ugh.
Xana: Yeah, I think the LBH label is fairly common amongst the ex-pat and esl communities. I'm sure you're familiar with the other names we have for those guys too.
Things are changing pretty quick around here and a lot of those changes are being fueled by the women here -- this is still a very sexist society, but it's changing. Of course if someone is looking for a trophy wife, he can find one here, but he can find one anywhere else for that matter. But if they think the typical Vietnamese woman is docile and compliant, they're in for a big surprise.
hi samhita,
i wonder sometimes whether it is even worth addressing or linking to these sites, which are marginal voices that reasonably intelligent people are unlikely to find or actually give credit to. i am *not* saying that fetishes and stereotypes are not extremely disturbing and important to discuss. yes - MANY men hold these or similar beliefs, and our society feeds them. but then wouldn't it be more productive to point out more mainstream examples of this phenomenon - ones that will give people pause, as opposed to ones that people find so ridiculous that they click away and never consider the other manifestations?
you deliberately didn't do this, i know - but i get frustrated when i see point-by-point rebuttals of articles on townhall.com, for example. that's a far more widely-read site than this one - but is that even worth our time and energy?
would love to hear what others think.
Once when I told an acquaintance that his creepy rants about how Asian women are supposedly sooo great in the sack, he actually got all confused and asked me,
"Why do you mind so much? It's like a compliment. You should be glad people think that."
Grrrrr.... Can you tell this brought up some hard feelings?
Once when I told an acquaintance that his creepy rants about how Asian women are supposedly sooo great in the sack is, idunno, NOT so cool, he actually got all confused and asked me,
"Why do you mind so much? It's like a compliment. You should be glad people think that."
Grrrrr.... Can you tell this brought up some hard feelings?
[ps. i know that you have thought about this question - i noticed you say "i shouldn't give this any light" or "credence", but wanted to add my hesitation to the mix. the point that fetishes fall through the cracks in discussions of racism is right-on; i want to hear more about that, not read some cut-and-paste commentary from nomarriage.com!]
As someone who married a Vietnamese woman, I can personally attest that she did not fit any of the Asian stereotypes offered in this tripe. I was amazed at how many people (supposedly enlightened) supported these stereotypes, even (somewhat freshingly) other Asians. This is just another example of the damage that happens when people are objectified.
Feliza: I can't fully imagine what it's like to wonder all the time whether someone is dating you because of you or because you're Asian, but I can understand a little from my time living abroad. It was sometimes a wonder of "Are they dating me because I'm me or because I'm America/speak English/they have some stereotype American women are easy/etc."
I'm actually working on some essays where I'm focusing on the feminist movement in Asia, primarily in Japan, and am including some focus on the stereotypes that some people have of women from Japan. I really don't think recent films (ex. The Last Samurai) have helped distill any stereotypes either.
Feliza--it makes me feel better too, so trust me, you're not alone in wondering "Does this person I'm dating like ME or the person he thinks I am". I've dated at least two guys whom I believe only wanted to date me because I am "exotic", and it's pretty sickening to find that shit out.
Also, the whole "it's a compliment" thing baffles me. Of course, everyone likes to think that he/she has mad skillz in the bedroom. But to be defined by that? No thank you.
There's an old movie called Quemada! starring Marlon Brando. He has an argument against marriage based on economical reasons. Basically, he says its too expensive to house and feed a wife, whereas a hooker is only paid for services rendered. Its actually an argument against slavery (why house and feed slaves when you could just pay them for the hours they work?).
*laugh* I would never marry a Vietnamese woman after teaching in an all-Asian school for a year.
Stereotypes just suck... I'm stating the obvious here, of course.
Speaking of the "easy American woman" stereotype, I actually had the distinct pleasure (read: horrible experience) of watching a Mexican TV show that interviewed local men during Spring Break in Cabo San Lucas and Cancun. Just terrible--how the American girls are so drunk and sleazy you can get away with anything. Also, how easy it is to get one in bed.
I wish more Spring Breakers knew that they were going to be treated and/or perceived this way.
It's the same stuff you'll find on those mail order bride sites. Trying to get American men to marry Asian women. It's both very racist and sexist.
Ladies, ladies.
We really should be ENCOURAGING these men to marry foreign women. Marry them, make them citizens, give them all the same rights as American women...
So after a couple years they can divorce their asses and get half their money! Bwahahahaha!
You know, if these men really are searching for idealized, subservient lotus blossoms, they should follow the example set by the protagonist of M Butterfly.
her sense of entitlement
Referring, presumably, to her belief that she's entitled to be treated as a human being and an equal. The nerve of her!
This would be laughable if it wasn't so fucking racist. It's classic "the grass is greener" thinking--whatever someone else is or has just has to be so much better/cooler/more exotic than what you are or have. Or rather, it appears that way to you because you're ignorant of the reality of their situation.
It amazes me that anyone actually believes this crap.
Gah, I HATE these sites so much.
Does anyone else feel kind of drawn back to them though? I discovered the whole awful mra thing only a few months ago and since then, I find myself searching out and reading them and letting them upset me. Has anyone else done this? I would really appreciate being snapped out of it. I KNOW they aren't worth my time or energy, and that they have no real bearing on wider society, but I still can't let them go. I just want to go and argue with them, but I know it would only waste my time and frustrate me. GAH! Anyone else unable to let go of them?
I really don't understand the logic here. A lot of these women grew up in severe poverty, political instability, war zones, or their aftermaths. (Obviously, this is a generalization, but I think my point remains valid, because this stereotype dates back to the Vietnamese and Korean Wars, doesn't it?)
Most of us North Americans would likely shrivel up and die if we had to deal with anything remotely as difficult as that. What makes these men think that a woman tough enough to survive all of that is going to just roll over and accept shitty treatment from some overgrown white boy who thinks that Asian women are delicate, breakable creatures? They're out of their league, and their minds.
My dad's got a coworker like this; he would hit on female Asian servers at restaurants all the time, telling the other guys at the table about how much better Asian women were than Americans for marriage. I hear that he's learned his lesson -- sort of, heh -- and is now moving on ... to obsessing over weird ideals of *Russian* women.
Ha! these LBH are ALL OVER China. I lived there for 2 years and my friends and I would always wonder how these guys who no girl back home would touch with a 10 foot pole (needy, whiny, unintelligent) would be dating beautiful intelligent women. (Usually significantly younger) To add insult, Chinese guys tend to think American women are easy. The stereotypes are unbelievable- everyone kept asking how many guns I own and if I do drugs. (I suppose I shouldn't feel too bad, they asked my German friend if she had beer on draft in her house :) ) I went to a business dinner with an associate at the school I was teaching at and when he made a most unwelcome move and I vehemently protested, his response was "wow, why are you acting so Chinese?" ARGHHHH! There is a blog dedicated to assholery of the men living in China: http://chinadirt.blogspot.com/ check it out, it is AWESOME :)
A few months ago my friend from South Korea came to visit me, and she had the most horrendous time with men -- it wasn't her first time in the U.S., and as somebody said earlier, most Asian women are very aware of how white Western men view them. Consequently, she says she'll never date a white man because of how they treat her and other Asian women.
In fact, she even had a run-in with a nasty white fetishist guy when me, her and two other friends left a club and were on our way home. Some drunk-ass white guy came up to me and her and leered disgustingly at her (which happened all too often to her while she was here). He then blocked our path and said, "Japanese, eh?" I put my arm around her and snapped rather uselessly, "She's not Japanese," and tried to walk around him. As we walked by, Asshole said "I've never had an Asian before." Suddenly, from behind us, my friend Katie (not her real name) yelled, "And with that attitude, you never will!!!" Well, Asshole of the Month then turned around and looked at Katie, who could be best described as short, cute and plump, and snapped something about her being "pregnant with swollen ankles," and started walking away, but Katie screamed at his back, "YES, yes I AM pregnant, and thank GOD you're not the father!!!" He pretended not to hear, although he was clearly still within hearing range. I'm kind of hoping that he hasn't been able to get it up since that little exchange. (That is, if he ever could...)
Of course, this is also the perfect time to plug Big Bad Chinese Mama.
" I've also heard that some Korean and Japanese men often deliberately refuse to date women in their own country, and instead go to southeast Asia, because female citizens of their countries are 'too liberated.' :("
Now that vaguely reminds me of these articles:
http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/waiwai/archive/news/2002/02/20020214p2g00m0dm998000c.html
"...'Japanese men make fun of genuine affection and love, but that's what women want the most,' a 23-year-old who's married to a Chinese.
"Fed up with relationship-phobic Japanese men, women in their 20s and 30s are tying the knot with other Asian men..."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/30/AR2006083002985.html
"Thin and gorgeous in a slinky black dress, Mikimoto pearls and a low-slung diamond Tiffany pendant, 26-year-old Kazumi Yoshimura already has looks, cash and accessories. There's only one more thing this single Japanese woman says she needs to find eternal bliss -- a Korean man.
"She may just have to take a number and get in line..."
I don't want a man who doesn't want a strong woman. I'm looking for an alpha male who not only wouldn't mind a strong, intelligent woman, but REQUIRES that in a girlfriend or wife.
Let the losers find foreign women - it removes the flotsam and jetsam from the dating field. ;) If they get more than they bargained for when Japanese or Thai women aren't the wallflowers they thought, well, karma's a bitch.
I used to be blonde. (I'm now a redhead.) Trust me, men will fetishise anything. I really feel for women who have to deal with this - it sucked being on the very mild end of blonde fetishes (or, currently, a conservative woman fetish)... I cannot imagine being on the end of a subservient-woman fetish.
Men who think like that are considering women to be interchangeable - that we have nothing, as individuals, to offer a husband that he could not find elsewhere. It's dehumanising and takes away the best of us. (Again, denying rights or dignity to one group often has repercussions that make the rest of the world a worse place to live.)
"Men who think like that are considering women to be interchangeable - that we have nothing, as individuals, to offer a husband that he could not find elsewhere. It's dehumanising and takes away the best of us."
Very well put, oenophile. I am studying this area of the use of the Internet to find (discover?) women of certain traits. These traits are mostly false but as American men are exposed to these messages, it devalues ALL women, including the ones next door and those whom they may work with in an office.
"Men who think like that are considering women to be interchangeable - that we have nothing, as individuals, to offer a husband that he could not find elsewhere. It's dehumanising and takes away the best of us."
Very well put, oenophile. I am studying this area of the use of the Internet to find (discover?) women of certain traits. These traits are mostly false but as American men are exposed to these messages, it devalues ALL women, including the ones next door and those whom they may work with in an office.
"Men who think like that are considering women to be interchangeable - that we have nothing, as individuals, to offer a husband that he could not find elsewhere. It's dehumanising and takes away the best of us."
Very well put, oenophile. I am studying this area of the use of the Internet to find (discover?) women of certain traits. These traits are mostly false but as American men are exposed to these messages, it devalues ALL women, including the ones next door and those whom they may work with in an office.
oops. please remove the extra 2 posts
Dinogirl, I feel your pain!
I've never sought out MRA websites, but I used to spend a lot of time in pro-life MySpace groups. I'd obsess over debates that happened in there. I had to quit cold turkey because I was neglecting my responsibilities at work!